[00:00:27] Jay: Hi, everyone. Welcome to The First Customer Podcast. My name is Jay Aigner. Today I'm lucky enough to be joined by the awesome founder and president of Goldfish Code, Bryan Farris. Hello, Bryan. How are you, buddy?
[00:00:38] Bryan: Hello, nice to meet you, Jay.
[00:00:39] Jay: Nice to meet you. so I did some perusing of your background. You're a serial entrepreneur, which I always find very interesting.
And I want to talk about that a little bit. you're in New York, right?
[00:00:49] Bryan: That's right.
[00:00:50] Jay: All right, cool. So tell me about where you grew up, and did that have an impact on you being an entrepreneur?
[00:00:56] Bryan: So I grew up in California, a California boy through and through, grew up in the Bay area, went to high school in Los Angeles, went back to the Bay area for college. And I would say that probably it did have an influence because being from the Bay area, everything is, focused on tech and Silicon Valley and all of that.
And there's all these startup stories. And, you gotta think that was probably going around in the back of my mind, when I was younger. And help lead to where I am today.
[00:01:26] Jay: Is that a real thing out there? is it just a vibe that goes on, you live in certain areas and you hear certain things. Is it a real kind of constant reminder that there is a lot of big, successful tech companies out there?
[00:01:38] Bryan: Yeah, absolutely. There's a big reminder, for the successful tech companies, you're seeing them, their advertisements, people that work there and so on and so forth. and then there's just a lot of talk around startups and ventures. And you hear about somebody, who decided to, leave their.
Cushy job and go, work out of the garage and found something. So there's just a lot of stories, ones that you hear nationally as well, but also locally, just because you actually know somebody who's gone and, dabbled in this or that it feels a lot more real,
[00:02:11] Jay: And did you have that experience? Did you know some people that actually firsthand went and were part of those bigger successful companies?
[00:02:18] Bryan: Yeah, I actually had, multiple friends of mine go off and work at, Dropbox in the early days, Uber in the early days, Airbnb in the early days, one of my friends, who I worked with previously, went and was very early on with Square, just literally saw people going off and doing that because I came out of college and, went into strategy consulting, worked at a company called Bain and Company, which is one of the big three strategy consultant firms. So big, cushy job, long career path. And, a whole bunch of people I knew from there were either founding their own businesses or going off and working for these, major tech startups that, now we have the benefit of seeing just how large those startups got, but at the time they were, new, they still had, 50, 60 employees, but they weren't, the big, giant corporations that they are, today.
[00:03:14] Jay: And did you, Did you draw inspiration of that from that? Cause I saw, like I said, I saw a bunch of kind of different ventures that you went. So tell me, what was the first one you went on tried, and who was your first customer at that business?
[00:03:26] Bryan: Sure. I think before I do that, I think it makes sense to tell you a little bit of my background and how I got there. so I ended up, I'm a coding nerd person. I started doing software development when I was 12 years old or so, playing around, did that throughout high school. Went to, UC Berkeley and studied engineering. And, while I was there, I took a whole bunch of computer science courses and entrepreneurship courses, but I wanted to get a bit, a better background in, business. And the reason I wanted to do that was actually because my first startup, happened when I was like 15 or 16 years old. and so that happened because of, actually a girl I was dating in high school, her father.
really enjoyed me and asked me if I could work for him. And so I was like, I'm hi I'm in high school. I'll do anything. I If you're gonna pay me a little bit of money, for sure. And, that re that ended up, Becoming a five or six year job where we were working on a vocabulary program that was a tech product
that was meant to teach people how to do better in their S.
A. T. S. And so on and so forth. Now that experience really framed my kind of founder mentality because from when I was about 16 years old, This guy said, Hey, you're going to be my co founder and you're going to build the technology for this. And so I started working on building the technology. I started organizing a team.
At some point, I had multiple employees there. We would go around to different schools to try to make deals. Now, in that particular role, I wasn't, what you would say, like a real founder, like I am with my modern day companies, because I was so young, I didn't know what I was doing. I was just. Hustling and helping out. and, the guy who I was working for was in no hurry to make any money. He was retired and this was a passion project for him. ultimately we didn't have a paying customer. we had a few, schools and, programs and students that were willing to use our product. but that entire experience got me very, Interested in the entire space. Then what ended up happening, if you go fast forward to, me in college and, getting out of college and working at Bain and company, I saw all these other people leaving and going and doing these other startups. And, I actually took a,short career break at that point. I went and, did volunteering where I went all the way to Pakistan. And helped a startup there that was focused on helping people with affordable housing in flood affected areas. And, that was a little bit of a career break that has to do with my passion for travel and international development. but, ultimately while I was there, I was also helping out at a startup and doing a lot of reflection in terms of what came next for me in my life. After spending a year there in Pakistan, I came back and founded a startup with two of my friends that was really focused on, transit choices. So we were focused on public transit. we built a product called transit hero and, we had a whole bunch of users, that were really focused on, Understanding multimodal transport options. Keep in mind, this is before Apple Maps existed. This is, early days of Uber and Lyft were starting to exist. And also a company called Sidecar at the time. And we built a multimodal, transit routing. That lets you look up how to get directions from a to B that would include taking a bus or a train for part of the way, and then taking an Uber or a taxi or a Lyft or something like that for the last mile. And, that was totally revolutionary and brand new. what we learned from that experience was that, there's. potentially a lot of users there and it was a huge data play. There was a lot of data that could be gathered, but in order to build a business, in that kind of manner, you're very reliant on funding, because ultimately applications like transit routing applications, they don't have a direct money flow.
So to speak, you're not charging the users. This application was free. People are using it for information of how to. Get about their commute. And ultimately, those applications make money through a big acquisition down the line or major data plays, throughout the process. And so that was one of the biggest lessons for me was just it is very difficult to go down that path, and it's a long path.
At the end, the rewards can be very huge because you could end up Making, data sales when you have a million users that are in the millions and millions of dollars, but it's one of those where if you don't make it to that point. You get nothing
and that's the real challenge. later in, future entrepreneurial endeavors that I pursued, I always made sure that the money was part of the central flow from day one, which is what led to me founding goldfish code, my current company, and ultimately we've been profitable from day one because everything we do is a project that's scoped and, set up to be profitable.
[00:08:56] Jay: mean, it sounds like you learned a pretty important lesson that, you got to pay, you got to be paid for this stuff. was that a conscious, obviously it was a conscious pivot, but tell me how you said, okay, we built this really cool thing. We're not. Really in a position to support it long enough to be acquired or not, to get the big payout.
I need to start something that, I do get paid for. Well, how did you make that switch? Like, how did you figure out what to start and how to charge for it? And like, how did you go from doe eyed, founder to building this really cool thing to go into a real, business that's bringing in money, how did you make that switch and was that just natural for you?
[00:09:35] Bryan: So I would say that I made that switch, naturally and out of necessity. the reason was because, at the. At the end of the journey with Transit Hero, we made the decision to shut it down and move on. And my co founders went and got jobs straight away. And I was debating what I wanted to do with my life. It was a great, point to pull back and reflect on, whether I wanted to continue down the entrepreneurial grind, or if I wanted to, take it a little bit easier and go get like a cushy job somewhere. Another thing on the table was going to business school. So all of these were things I was toying with and I decided at the time that, Hey, I better, just get some jobs, some work, some freelance work in the interim and, then make my decision. So ultimately that led to me. Going and getting some, software development jobs. And I started doing software development and consulting for a few clients. and that right there was the beginning of my current company, because ultimately what we did was, I started that as a solo, individual doing a project.
And then that project, one of my very first projects required more developers. so the client asked me if I knew anyone. I said, I know a couple of people and I might be able to find some other people and do you have a budget? And they said, yeah, we have a budget. And I said, okay, what's your budget?
And they gave me the budget. And then I went and I hired people for a little bit less than that budget and profited the difference. And suddenly I had a company and it was. Kind of by accident on purpose, but certainly not something where I sat down and said, hey, here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna create a consulting company and go out there and build it.
I just went and said I need a job I need to get a quick Freelance gig and one thing led to another and then ultimately I did later on have to sit back and say hey Okay, am I actually gonna? Stick with this and build something based off of this. Or am I seeking to just go out and run with this for a little bit and then go get another job.
And at that point in time is when I saw that, Hey, there's really something I can build here and there's success because. Ultimately, I'm packaging these as consulting gigs where I'm hiring somebody, and I'm finding the job and I'm able to make a small margin on top of that. And it just grew from there. Obviously, the company expanded and it got to the point where rather than just hiring contractors myself, I was putting people on payroll and salary. But that came after, the client base grew. And, I had an understanding of, what I could expect in terms of recurring revenue and, recurring projects and, how, sales would expand and grow over time. but it just was something that snowballed and, ultimately, what I. Would say I learned retroactively is that once you have sales and once you're able to consistently get new sales, you can really build a business around that.
And so if I were to, go back and. speak to a younger version of myself, I would say, stop going out and looking for tools that you could build or, problems that people might have and instead look for clients because once you find clients and you figure out how to serve their needs, then. You're good to go from there, and you can just start to iterate and find another client that matches the same profile and continue to do that and build your business from there. And I think that applies, certainly to anyone in the service business, but also to product based businesses. Once you start to find people that fit a certain profile and, that you can. serve them in a sort of repeatable fashion that right there is a business and, the critical piece for me that, led to success in this venture, as opposed to some of my prior ventures was focusing on the customer from day one.
[00:14:06] Jay: Love that. There's a lot to unpack there. all great stuff. I am curious. How did you find that first consulting client? Like you decided, I'm going to go be a consultant instead of go get a nine to five job or go to business school. How'd you find that first consulting client? Well, I mean, literally, where did you go?
What did you do? Cause I think that's a lot of the holdup, right? It's people want to do that, but they go, I don't know what to do. I don't know who to talk to or like how to find, like, where did you find your first consulting client?
[00:14:37] Bryan: So, the very first one, I think I ended up getting on, ODesk or Elance,
uh, one
[00:14:44] Jay: Oh yeah.
Oh, you're old school. Like me, dude. We started on, we started with elance. It's up. I think it was Upwork that Upwork either bought or merged with like those companies. Right. Isn't that how it started?
[00:14:55] Bryan: Yeah. exactly. It was, I think oDesk purchased Elance, whatever it was, I was on one of those platforms and I think I got my first client there, but really where I found a greater success and more of my clients initially was through my network. basically once I started reaching out to people and saying, Hey, I'm now available to be doing some of this. Software development work and to be consulting with startups, perhaps it's because I came from the Bay Area, but there were a number of people that had ends or connections with different startups or who were investors who invested in startups and wanted me to help out with that particular startup and so on. So it started to build from some of these, I think that having some of the traction from my first project or two on Elance helped,
but really ultimately it was about networking and letting people know that I'm available. and then I did a lot of meeting. Meetings with people that didn't really go anywhere, but it was interesting to me and I had a good time giving preliminary advice to various people and, explaining what I was interested in and then letting that kind of lead to the next introduction naturally, but it wasn't too long before I started being pretty busy with a couple of projects.
And then I kept doing that on the side. And, while executing on the project that I had.
And, that's what led to ultimately having more projects than I personally had time to deliver on. And that's, when I obviously needed to hire.
[00:16:34] Jay: That's my favorite service based business prologue to the business right is like you did such a good job that you had too many clients and you know You couldn't say no to money and you had to figure out what to do Right, and then you built this business around you and then you've solidified it So tell me how does that process look today compared to then right?
So like you were scratching and clawing, you were taking all these calls, you were doing all this stuff, trying to find your clients and figure out who your client was. How has that matured today? what does your process look like today compared to the early days when you were really scrappy?
[00:17:10] Bryan: It's interesting because in some ways it's completely the opposite and in some ways it's the same and The way it is the opposite is that the client or sorry the way that it's the same is that clients are still Often coming through my network the way that it's different is that I'm not going out to my network, it's that they're coming to me through my network. a lot of the clients come to us through referrals. of course we also have a sales team now and we have, more established processes for, marketing and going out and putting our name out there. so there is a number of leads that come that way. From that angle as well. But now a lot of it is still, I think the most successful clients come through the network, but they come as referrals. And, that network has also expanded through, our former client base at this point. or even current clients who, Now have the most, authoritative recommendation because if someone comes to them and says, Hey, do you know anyone that can help advise me on how to build this software product that I want to build? They can say, yes, and I've worked with these people and I love them. And so it makes it very easy, to have that conversation with them. I would say that the reason that this has happened is because we've created a differentiated offering. what goldfish code does is not. Just software development, and I'd say that's what the majority of our competitors are doing is they work with clients to find out what their software requirements are, and they build them.
And that's it. And, what? I saw strategically years ago was that kind of business is going to become completely commoditized because at the end of the day, what you're selling is the output, not the process. And, and so it's, you're just going to be competing to the bottom dollar if you go that route. what goldfish code does that's different is, and that we've done differently from day one is the fact that we bring strategy consulting into the picture, which again, comes back to my days at Bain and company. But the point of doing that was to ensure that not only are we. Building something that matches what the client wants, but that we're helping the client really understand how to change the idea they have in their mind into something that's going to be completely successful.
So we challenge our clients thinking we don't just say yes. we don't just accept what they ask for or find the easiest way. I would rather have, some pushback and, treat my partner like I'm their partner. Sorry, my client, like I'm their partner. that's how ingrained it is that it's mixed up in my head, which word to call them. and so that strategy consulting aspect and, and we call it a 360 degree consulting aspect is really what sets us apart. And so we've developed a whole framework for the way that we approach, clients strategy. And, now when. I work with a client. It's not just about building the actual software products.
Yes. At the end of the day, we make software, but it's about helping them, with their business model and understanding what is going to, what it's going to take to achieve
a success in their industry and how we're going to, actually build something that matters. And, we've even developed, or rather trademarked our own process for design.
Yeah. which I'd love to tell you about, but, it's a deeper dive, but it focuses on, what motivates users
and, what's going to convince a user to get the product in the first place and then get onboarded and use it throughout the, their experience life cycle. And all of that is with, the business success of our client in mind.
And so we're bringing a lot more to the table than just. Software development work, and that, is very intangible. And once you start to do that and over perform and provide a value that is no longer commoditized, it's not really available out there in the marketplace, then people and clients will just talk about you and
suddenly it becomes a lot easier to find new ones.
[00:21:43] Jay: Well, tell me, I do want to hear, I think anybody that has a trademarked process is, warrants hearing a little more about it, because the first thought is, how would you, how would you as a potentially non subject matter expert. Be able to provide the level of strategy that a client may need because you guys service a bunch of different verticals and a bunch of different stuff, I would assume so maybe that's part of your trademark process, but tell me a little bit how that works.
Like if you're helping a e commerce site one day and, some sort of, I don't know, social app the next day, and you guys are doing a bunch of different stuff. How do you provide that kind of SME level, strategy specific to each client that gives them that value that you're talking about?
Maybe that does lead into a little bit of your conversation around your trademark process.
[00:22:33] Bryan: Yeah, absolutely. So at the end of the day, the common element that all of these products have is that they are targeted towards human users. And so ultimately, when you look at a product, so many people are fixated on, in the design world on, UX and UI. So UX is this idea of user experience and, it Most commonly, it's used to refer to, the like intuitiveness of how the product is and how easy it is to use what the flow of logic is for how you proceed from one part of the application to another, and, essentially making it so that when someone picks up this product that they've never used before, that they're able to look at it and know what to do. that's what UX is all about. UI is all about user interface. the goal there is to make something look modern and beautiful and very attractive. And, ultimately at the end of the day, just because something is easy and intuitive to use and also modern and beautiful and attractive doesn't mean that Anyone cares about using it.
It doesn't imply that anyone is actually motivated to want to use that product. And, so what we do is we look at UM, which is our own topic that we've come up with, and that stands for user motivation. And, the trademarked process that we have is motivation driven design. And the idea is that you want to first look at what is motivating the users in the first place so that how can we align with that user's motivation so that they want to use the product and not just use the product but use the product in a way that Results in the actions that we desire.
We call those desired actions, and the desired actions are the actions that we know will in like directly or indirectly influence the business bottom line for our clients. So ultimately, at the end of the day, what you're talking about, regardless of industry or focus, is how do you motivate users to do the actions that are going to create money for the business? And so it becomes a question of behavioral psychology is what are the intrinsic motivators for different users? What are the extrinsic motivators? what are positive motivators, things that people aspire to? And what are negative motivators, things that, people don't want to miss out, take advantage of the last spot or, whatnot.
those are not going to keep people motivated for a long time. Negative motivators can create decision making situations. that's what limited time offers are always about. It's gotta do it now. So these kinds of psychological concepts are, very applicable regardless of industry, and then it's just a question of.
Understanding and listening to the client's particular product or, business idea and thinking about all these psychological factors. And how can we take what we know about, motivation and apply it to every aspect of their product and their business. And once you take that sort of framework, it starts to become very easy to apply it even to very different industries, because ultimately at the same, at the end, we're talking about humans here and what's going to make them excited and interested. And, so that's made it possible for us to become experts in this space and start advising totally different clients, but with the same like confidence that we know that this works because at the end of the day, the users are all human
[00:26:20] Jay: For now,
[00:26:21] Bryan: for now.
[00:26:21] Jay: until we're taken over by AI. that's beautiful. Let's wrap it there. That was, and I have one kind of final question, but that was a beautiful summary. I hope everybody checks out Goldfish. you guys have been a blast, everybody on your team. I love working with you guys. non business related.
If there's one thing you do, on all planet Earth, maybe a bucket list item, and you knew you couldn't fail,
[00:26:46] Bryan: One thing I would do and I knew I couldn't
fail,
[00:26:49] Jay: knew you couldn't fail, what would it be?
[00:26:55] Bryan: well, I would like to get to all countries and territories on the planet. I've made it a real good amount of the way, but I'd love to take one year off and finish the job. I'm at 131 countries now,
and so I've, it's actually achievable
[00:27:14] Jay: Yeah, that's,
[00:27:15] Bryan: but
[00:27:16] Jay: you said you done a bunch and I was like, all right, like maybe, 40 and 130. Good Lord. That's a lot of, that's, I gotta be honest, dude. I would, that's a great one. And that's a, that's one of my, that's one of mine too. I don't know why everybody doesn't want to do that.
Right? it's just there's so much cool stuff out there. I would love to see it all. every bit of it.
[00:27:35] Bryan: The way I see it is we don't have the opportunity to be, explorers, like Cortez, like discovering new worlds or anything like that.
But we have the privilege of being able to literally go everywhere.
And so that's the modern day explorers. I've been to all seven continents kind of thing.
And that's what I'm aspiring to do.
[00:27:56] Jay: Wow. I wish you the best of luck on your journey. that's a, I love that one. That's maybe one of my new favorites. All right. If you want to find you and reach out to you directly, or if they want to find goldfish, how do they do that?
[00:28:09] Bryan: Goldfishcode. com. You send a message there. It'll get to me.
[00:28:13] Jay: All right. Simple enough. Beautiful. Well, Bryan, I really appreciate your time today, brother. I think, there's a lot of good stuff for people to pick up in there and, the sense of discovery never ends, with Bryan. So, enjoy the rest of your week, brother, and I'll talk to you soon. All right.
[00:28:27] Bryan: Thanks so much, Jay.
[00:28:28] Jay: Thanks, Bryan. See you, buddy. Later.