The Truth About Phil and Saudi Arabia

feels like. Now, you know, this will all get revealed in time. We don't have those answers yet, but it does feel like, as of this moment, the Staudi Golf League is dead. And you know, Phil helped write the obituary for sure, put another logo fire Nobody here is get the time. Welcome to the fire Pit with Matt Chinella. Alright, so many of you know by now, a fire pit podcast is one story told by multiple voices or perspectives reflections.

In this case, and like a few others, we're kind of referring to of them as fire drills, fire pit employees and special guests getting together talking about breaking news, see Phil's win at the p g A, or in this case, see Phil doing what Phil does best, which is be the smartest one in the room, or in

this case, be the smartest one on the phone. The guy he was talking to on the other end of the phone was Alan Schipnuk, who joins me now to talk about what has become the story in golf for the last several days, which is the fact that Phil has is beneficially revealed two using the Saudi Golf League and this proposed breakaway league as leverage to try to get what you know, he wants or improvements to the general tour on behalf of the players or you know.

I don't know, Alan, what exactly was the motive here. Yeah, it's layered for sure, and I will say um, to some degree, I'm a little surprised that this has gone around the world the way it has, because I'm getting notifications from websites that are in Italian, French, Arabic, German, Portuguese people. It's the story has touched such a nerve.

But to me it was kind of obvious all along that Phil was working both sides of the street and that he was trying to create this bidding war for services between the DJ Tour and on the Saudi Golf League. Now the tour can't pay him directly, but they could acquiesce to some of his longstanding demands, which they have done,

and therefore they're paying him into directly. Um, I guess because he said the quiet parts out loud, that's what it was surprising, and in in a world of bullshit tery, for him to be so blunt and to just say it as raw and uncensored as you did it, it was pretty eye catching and it did reveal and again it depends how you look at you could respect the candor. Right. You know, other guys that go to Saudi Arabia and they talk about growing the game, which is a joke.

The game is not growing in Saudi Arabia. It's a freaking desert and there's forty million people in two golf courses where the numbers are like, No one's trying to grow the games out Arabia. They're just going to there

take a chat um. So to me, it was a little refreshing that Phil was honest, but it also it was sort of morally bankrupt for him to say, you know, I know they're bad actors and they've done all these horrible things, but I don't care because I'm just using as a as a bargaining chip, and that obviously rubs some people the wrong way. So you know, too, what

what is Phil's endgame here? We're going to find out shortly, but ultimately, I think the reason he told me what he told me is he wanted his real true interfeelings to be revealed, and he wanted on record that he knows the Saudi's are bad actors and that it's just business.

It's not personal. You know, this is just something he felt he had to do to make life better for everyone on the PGA tour, and it was important for him, uh, you know, for golf fans to know he's just gaining the system and yes, he is the smartest guy in the room. And but of course he did sort of outsmart himself on this one because he badly underestimated the kind of backlash that would be created. And now it looks like the whole, whole, the whole enterprise this crumbling.

But again, maybe that's what Phil wanted. I mean, he said to me, I'm not sure even want to succeed you know, he's gotten a lot of concessions he wanted, and now this gives him an easy way to walk away. Because the money was getting so big and he was so deeply invested in the creation of the league and everything else. It was gonna be hard, and he's helped sell out to other players. It was gonna be hard for him not to take the plunge, right like he

he'd sort of painted himself into a corner. So if it goes away, He's like, great, I could stay on the PGA tour. I got most of what I wanted. My reputation took a little hit, but you know it's not the first time, and his fans always seem to come back to him. So it's it's a it's a fascinating episode in a career full of controversy, and um people talking about how it's gonna affect his legacy will see. But you know, Phil, Phil has been down this road before.

I mean, he's taking plenty of bullets and he just keeps going. But at this moment, this this feels like like he's had a big fork in the road. Oh my gosh. I mean, I like to talk about how what incredible reporter you are. What a great interview you are? You You're a great interview also because one question and you're you, you answered, you have a lot of answers. Oh my bad, my bad, I just I just I

didn't ahead like for different talking. Let's pull let's pull a few of these things apart for a second before we get to the end game and his legacy at all. I mean, did this story you know, I know you're not going to be the one to say, oh, you killed the Saudi golfleet, but did this story? Did the truth? Did fills truth in fills words? Actually put such a puncture in this, you know, dysfunctional tire that they can't it can't, it can't be driven anymore. It sure feels

that way. You know, today on Sunday, February, you know, both dust and Johnson and Bryson de shambo Um put out statements highly unusual on a Sunday at a Marquee tournament where the tour is going to you know, essentially trumpet the words of of some players who are not in contention or are not factors in the tournament, right, but they um, they both renounced the Saudias and those

were two of the biggest names linked to the whole thing. Now, everyone has been in constant negotiations and the only the only winners and all this are the lawyers with the billable hours right because there's and the agents. There's been so much dealmaking going on behind the scenes. So whether Dustin and Bryson were actually gonna jump or how close they were, not many people know that, but for sure they were. They were being wooed and they were thinking

about it. We know that for certain. So, uh, you take them out of the mix and all the other players this week at the l A Open, who probably with some prodding from Jay Monahan got in front of microphone and said, you know, my leadnesses or my fealty my new favorite word, or with the PGA tour um, you know who's left. You know, Dustin Johnson is still could be a dominant force of the game. Bryson moves the needle like few others. They would be important pieces

in this. Now you're left of what Ian Poulter and Lee Westwood, who are both heading to the Senior Tour soon. I mean, Phil still a star, but uh, you know the PG Championship was only top ten of the year and he knows what he has left in the tank. It can't be that much. You know, you needed Bryson, you needed Dustin's star power. You take that away, Jason

co Crack. I mean, uh, some of these other you know, come on like so I think that unless unless the boys in Saudi Arabia have some real tricks up their sleeve and somehow, um, they're gonna get someone to change their mind. And I guess we all have a price, But it seems like the players who are now out, it's just it's just too much star power gone. I mean, you can't. You can't build league around Sea list players.

Just nobody's gonna care. And uh, you know, whether Phil's comments made the whole thing so toxic that Dustin and Bryson had to change the heart, or maybe they've been they they were they always on the fence and this helped nudge them, or maybe they had already signed and they somehow said screw it, man, this is terrible. This. You know, Phil talked me into it, and he was he was seduced me and fills my guy and this is how he feels like now you know, this will

all get revealed in time. We don't have those answers yet, but it does feel like as of this moment, the Stoudi Golf League is dead. And you know, Phil helped write the obituary for sure. So again we we we got a lot to get to here. And but let's go back now for a second and talk about the actual interview itself, about the actual phone call. You're doing an unauthorized biog fee on Phil Nicholson. He wasn't talking to you. A lot of people in his camp weren't

talking to you. You were doing your due diligence and intrepid reporting for months, over a year your career essentially, How did how does the actual call come about? You know, I say this book has been thirty years in the making. You know, my first year cover on the tour that was Phil's second full season, and I've been tracking him the whole time. You know, he was instantly one of the most important players in golf and maybe the most interesting,

certainly one of the most controversial. And I've always been drawn to Phil um. You know, I'm not one of his I'm not one of his guys. I mean, there are a lot of reporters who have played recreational rounds of golf with him, or they've gone out too long

discursive dinners. You know I've done neither. Um you know, there's always been a little weariness between Phil and I. That's served me well because it makes me a little more clear eyed and I could see things the more perspective, and I can write about it a little more honestly, because I'm not trying to protect some quasi friendship like some of these other guys. But um, you know, I've always loved writing about Phil. And you love him or

hate him, He's never boring. And I've been on the ground for as great as victories and his most crushing defeats, and I've had a lot of access to him through the years. I've been to his house, We've we've dined at his club. After you won the Claret jug I sneaked into the victory party and I was drinking champagne with him and Amy, Um, you know, charity of things that were not public. I crashed and we hung out in the manager's office at this target, munch on donuts.

And so I've been around Phil a lot, and I have a lot of insights. So I didn't need him for this book. Of course, I wanted him. So I approached three separate times face to face, asked him if if you would sit for interviews, and he thought about it, and he went back and forth and ultimately he declined, which is his prerogative. Um, he was very worried. He didn't want it to appear as an author as it was a Thris biography, which you know I told this

to Nicholas Palmer. Dozens of biographies have been written about those guys. They had they got no money, and they had no editorial control. They weren't authorized per se, but they still sat with the writers because they felt there was value in telling their side of every story and burnishing their own legend. And I encouraged Filed you the same. But um, you know, he didn't. He didn't go down that road, which was fine, But I guess in October of one, you know, he texted me and I just

know it would have been November of twenty one. He texted me and said he you know, he wanted to talk about the tour and meteorites and n f t s and related issues and what could we have a conversation? I said, yeah, sure, I mean obviously those are those are not the sexiest topics. If if I made a list of what I wanted to interview feel about for the book, they wouldn't even be in the top ten. But he said he didn't want to talk about anything else.

You just want to talk about those things. And I said, okay, fine, So he called me up and it was actually I was driving home from the Wishbone brawl. It was that Sunday, after the brawl, after Thanksgiving, and that's that's when we had this, this this conversation. And it's a really important point. I'm a biographer working on a book. He's asked to speak. Every single thing he says to me is going in

the book unless we agree expressly that it's not. And if he wants to set some ground rules, and if you wanted to go off of the record, I would have pushed back really hard because this is my one chance to talk to him. But he never asked to go off the record. He never said it was on background. He never said this is just between me and you or tried to intimate anything like that. Um, whether in the text beforehand and we got on the phone, he just started talking at that point. It is an on

the record interview with a biographer. There's that's not even in question. I think every other writer in the world would have the same attitude. And so he just starts talking and he says all these amazing things, and you know,

he we had discussed it. You know, the timeline for the book is coming out in May, and as as this whole thing is played out, I really think Phil wanted his innermost feelings to be recorded, and he wanted, you know, me and therefore my readers to know how he really felt, which is he recognizes the Saudis are bad guys, and they're bad actors, and and there's a discomfort dealing with them, which he hasn't said publicly at all.

But at the same time, this was a once in a lifetime opportunity to to reshape the PG tour and he couldn't let it go by. And so um again, you know he Phil rarely opens his mouth without an agenda, and he's always working in an edge in an angle, and so for him not to go on or off the record or do anything like that, I think that was a calculated decision because now he can go back to the guys in saut Arabia and say, you know, oh,

I was misquoted, he was taking out context. He can tell him whatever he wants and probably to try and you know, to try and spin it his way. But he's now on record as not really ever being totally on board, and so if this whole thing goes away, he can be like, you know, I didn't want to go anyway, That's what I told Allen, and and I was just using it for leverage. And I won. You know, I got. I got the n f T platform for the tour. A hundred million dollars is getting poured back

into the players. I won the PIP. He's like I won, you know, he he was able. It was it becomes revisionist history. And if it come out in May, you know, this whole thing would have been done and dusted, because everything we heard, and every indication from from players and agents I've talked to you was that there was gonna be announcement in March the week of the Players Championship that the Saudi Golfing was a go, that they'd signed

twenty players, and this was happening. And and so if the book comes out two months later, everything is settled. But Phil still gets to tell golf fans with a wink like, Okay, you know I signed with him, but it was just business, you know, I I really I know what's going on here and um, because things were moving so fast with Saudi Arabia and the book is not coming out till May. You know, publishing is still

an old fashioned industry. And believe it or not, there's a paper in a glue shortage in the publishing world and it's affecting the ability to print books. I mean, you know it's you think we're in the eighteenth century,

but this is happening in two thousand twenty two. We all know about the dreaded supply chain issues and so there's not much flexibility in changing your dates because there's only a finite amount of paper and freaking glue to go around, and so, uh, there's not the ability to move the books released DATEA You could release a digital copy, you know, weeks or months ahead, but publisher don't want to do that once they want people to buy the books, you know, they um, and they're happy to sell the

digital copies to other folks. But there's two different books buying publics, those who want to hold in their hand and those who want the digital copy and they don't want to lose the people who still like a physical book. So, um, knowing all that, and that this Saudi Arabia stuff, which is so juicy, was perishable because if in and the film makes his decision and everything goes public, the intrigue is lost and the a lot of what I had

becomes kind of obsolete. And so, you know, and talking to you, Matt and other other the brain trust of the collective and going back to Simon Schuster, we just realized, like, now is the time. This is the hottest topic in golf. It's coming to a boil. It's time to drop what we have in the book and get out there now. And and so we did. Now, you know, the timing was probably not convenient for Phil, but my allegiance is not to fill it's to the readers. It's to the truth.

And this was the moment. And so you would usually not do an excerpt, you know, three months ahead of publication. It's early for that, but it really didn't matter in this case. You know, I'm I'm not Bob Woodward, who's going to sit on something for a year that's that has tremendous news value. But he just wants to sell more books, like you know, around the time of publication

like this. This was the moment to drop this because it advanced the conversation in a really interesting and important way. And so, um, that's what we did. I mean, one could argue that actually this was and you've touched upon it already, this was the time to drop it for

film made. This was the perfect time for Phil because he's not he hasn't committed to that league, because the truth came out about how he actually knows the truth about who he's potentially getting in bed with in both Greg Norman and the Saudi Golf League, by the way, and and and he can still and look at what look at what has been accomplished with more pit money, more FedEx money, more players, championship money, no wrap around season eventually you know, um, so many you know, a

baseline you know, dollar figure that's attributed to having a PGA talk. Various things have been put in place that if those were his ambitions, whatever percentage of what he wanted to have accomplished, it's got to be a pretty high percentage of what got done. Yeah, I mean, that's that's how Fiel is gonna have to spin it is I won. I won. You know, I got the tour to do to make all these concessions. Other conversations are ongoing still, and he got out the fact that this

tour sitting on eight million dollars. The last thing that's remaining are these individual rights and and control over a brand. And that's that's an uphill battle because even in the other sports leagues, the athletes don't have that. I mean, they're the NBA is selling n f T s of its players, but you know five basically five percent goes to the players. It's not they It's not like Lebron James owns his own likeness and can sells n f

T s, which is you know what Phil wants. But if you were to get that, it would be a monumental shift in the sports landscape. Now, it's fine to ask for it and to push for it, but I don't think he's gonna get it. And so you know, he's already making he's already had some important victories. At least they are established an tea platform. And you know there's a hundred million dollars going to the players this

year because of Phil, largely. If you want to if you want to, if you want to make it like that, you know the persons went up sixty million. They don't They basically have doubled the fete, the Players Championship person in four years it was eleven million and eighteen it's gonna be now it's gonna be twenty million. Um. You know, they got these spurious bonus programs like the That's been one of the frustrations with people in the golf world is that the PGA Tour has not done everything they

can do for for the players. Like they're always holding back and they're always controlling. I mean, Phil's helped crack that open. There may be a player's union that comes out of all this. So he's gonna that's his only move. Now he's just to declare victories. Say I never wanted to go to Saudi Arabia. Look, I told Alan that back in November, and I got everything I can get from the tour and now I'm delighted to be to be back. And uh, I can't wait to tee up

the Players Championship my favorite events. And you know Jamon had my boy and you know his life in the big leagues is every now and then you got out their little chin music and that's what I did, and let's play ball, you know, like that's that's what that's how Phil has to spend it. And you know, yeah, maybe this is the best thing that could have happened for me because I think competitively, you know, he would have been fine missing out. He loves Pebble Beach, right,

He's one up five times. His grandfather was a caddy there. There's there's some emotional attachment to that. But he doesn't have it with Tory Pines anymore because he hates to remodel and even skipping Tori doesn't live in Phoenix anymore. So even though that tournament it was important to him at various points and he won it early in his career, I think he's kind of over it with Phoenix. I don't think there's many places that that really move him

week in week out on the tour. So I think he would been okay given up the PGA Tour schedule. But um, you know, if you signed, if you signed on the dog line with Staudy Golfin, you had to play every tournament. There was no flexibility. And we know that. You know, Phil's always loved to be a private contract, and he'll skip us open for his his high school graduation, and he will disappear for months at a time to go on trips with Amy, and he was gonna lose

some of that flexibility. Not granted it's only you know, thirteen or fourteen events they were talking about, but if they fall on anniversaries and and kids stuff, you know, you're kind of you're kind of aude luck. So, um, I think I think Phil, I think that was his motivation for wanting to go on record with me about his his what was in his heart of hearts and how about just a conscience? Yeah, well, I mean that's

given him too much credit. Like I mean, but um, so I think the Phil and I always I got the sense when we spoke, because it was a lot of conversation, like he was kind of at peace. However played out, he was going to be fine, Like it was a win win for him. Either he was gonna get a monster pay day from the Saudias and take a little shrapnel but whatever, or he was gonna get his concession and stay on the tour and be happy that way. So, uh, you know, I think in the

final analysis, that's probably what's gonna happen. Like, sure, he's had, he's taken he's taking some bullets this week, and there's been some bitchy things written about him on the internet. But Phil has been engulfed in controversy plenty of times, and I think one thing he knows, And in fact, Kim Bradley told me this in one of the interviews of the book was that, and you know, Keik has had a few little kerfuffles over there's nothing on the

scale of Phil. But um, he said, when you're in the middle of it just feels like your world has ended and and you're never gonna escape this, and it's gonna define your whole life. And Phil's advice was like, it's not a big deal, dude, It's gonna be over in a day and no one's gonna remember it. And I think Phil probably still feels that way, Like right now, it's engulfed the golf world. And as you know, I mean,

we get these notifications for pingbacks. I mean, hundreds and hundreds of websites around the world have cited our story and have piled on Phil. And you know, there's an intensity to this that's unusual. But you know next week there will be another story in golf, and I think Phil's just counting on that that he's he's skated so many times, and he's weathered so many storms, and uh, you know, I ultimately he'll still be standing when this

one's over. Diminished in the eyes of some, but he's still the p G A championship winner, and he still has his tour pension, and he's he's still going to try and win that US Open this year. And I mean Phil's life will go on, and I guess the rest of us will will go on too. I know a lot of the answers to these questions, obviously, because it's not like this is the first time we're talking. But I'll pretend to be the guy who you know, essentially belly's up next to you at a bar, or

sits next to you on your next airplane. Um, have you heard from Phil or Team Phil? Yeah? I got one text from him, and I would His tone was he was displeased. Um, And he tried to sort of go down that road of Oh, I thought this was a private conversation between you and I and I shut that down really fast because and his heart wasn't really

in it anyway, like he knows the truth. I don't know what he's gonna say going forward, but he knows that this is an on the record conversation and it was for the book, and he never asked for any of this to be to be private. And so, you know, you can spin a lot of things, but it's hard to lie face to face. And the person that knows the truth right, and he can tell whatever he wants to other people, but he and I know what happened, and there's no use trying to bullshit me because I

was there, and so he didn't try very hard. And it was a short, pithy text and I wrote back and and that's been the sum total since the story dropped. I did hear from one of his closest advisers, who um for the person. He wrote me was great article. You know. This is in the text message, great article, you know, basically thanks for laying all the cards on the table. And then clearly he had he had talked

to Phil because then he called me. He's like, well, I'm mad because it feels mad and I don't even know why I'm mad. I'm supposed to be mad. And then we talked it out and he's like, you know, you make good points, and uh, it makes sense, and you know, I still think this is gonna help Phil. And so it was interesting, like Evan flow and within one day. But one of the people who he really leaves on for counsel and he's a big factor in

his life. So, UM, I think you know, there's a lot of there's been a lot of discomfort around Phil. He's he's a maverick and he doesn't listen to anybody, maybe Amy sometimes, but you know, he's he has various lawyers in the payroll. His his agent, Steve Lloyd, and they've been together since college and they go in on these investments. They're more like like brothers than they are. I don't think Steve Lloyd can tell Phil what to

do and um. And so even for the people in his inner circle, it's probably like being the chief of

staff for Donald Trump when he was the president. Like you know, you you're you're there to give advice and counsel and you can try and push back to some degree, but all the way, look at ever, with the hell they want, you can't control it, and you're just trying to pick up the pieces and um, so based on that one interaction I've had with this person, and he was extremely close to Phil and helps handle his business

life and his affairs. It's like, I think there's some relief, like this was turning into a saga that was overshadowing a lot of other things. It was certainly complicating, Um, you know, Phil's future in the marketplace, because I have heard from a very very well connected source upon a future beats that that workday is not going to renew their contract with Phil um, which you know, these things happen, things change in the corporate world. But was that because

of their discomfort with the Saudi Arabia stuff? It has It would have to be a factor, right, I mean, we'll see when he shows that the masters what what logos are on his shirt, But that's definitely making the rounds and UM in golf circles that you know, that's

one of his big endorsement partners. So um, you know it's I respect Phil and that he puts his neck on the chopping block and you talk about to me, the classic example is the Ryder Cup, you know when when he threw Tom Watson under Greyhound at Glenn Eagles. Certainly he was motivated by vengeance because Watson had benched him, and they've been button heads all week about a variety of things, and there was an element of just of of personal retribution. But I do believe and i've and

it's all laid out in the book. And this is Phil's point of view as well, because we were talking about in real time as it was happening that night that it was a calculated decision that the US Ryder Cup team had gotten their teeth kicked in over and over and there was no cohesive plan from captain to captain. There was no institutional support, and they were just making it up. Willy nearly every two years, and that's that's

why they're always put in a position to fail. And he was tired of it and the only way to create the necessary momentum for change was to sacrifice Tom Watson on the altar. And I was in the room that night, in that press conference, and it was the most awkward thing probably my reporting career. And Tom Watson has his flaws as a captain, we all know that, but he's a proud man and it was hard to watch.

But in the final analysis, that changed everything in the US has now one two out of three Ryder Cups, and they're going to dominate the next decade. And everything that Phil pushed for has happened. There's more continuity in picking the captaincy, there's more buying from the players. The PGA of Americans opened up their wallet and help support their efforts in a whole variety of ways, which I'll

detail the book. We have to go into now. And um, you know Phil one and the benefit of every American Ryder Cup and and every golf and in this country who wants the US to win the Ryder Cup. Um that he took a big risk, and he took a big hit. I mean there was a lot of people who shredded Phil after that, and um, and deservedly, you know, it was it was not it was there was not the most graceful way to handle it, but it created

the momentum that was needed for change. So and there's other examples in the way it feels sort of single handedly taken on the U S yea, you know, I don't really agree with a lot of his stances, but he's seeing we're hitting a moving ball. Well yeah, and again you know that was that was a reflection of he'd been at war with with with the U s g A for years and that was and that's the set up at Shinnecock crossed the line again and he

wanted to highlight that. Now there's other ways to do it, but Phil makes decisions where he wants to maximize his impact. He did it at Glenn Eagles, he did at Shinnecock,

he did it on the phone with me. And you might not always agree with the direction he wants to go or the methodology, but he's he sees himself as an agent of change, and he puts it out there and in in a world of milk toast athletes who won't say anything controversial and they've got all the media training and all they're thinking about is what their agent wants. I mean, I respect that Phil puts it out there

and he will take the bullets. And uh so I don't agree with his his positions on a lot of things, and you can you can Monday Morning quarterback the way he goes about it. But uh you know, Phil is not afraid to try and affect change, and he certainly has done that in a variety of ways. On the Saudi Arabia issue, it seems in the moment he's kind of set himself on fire. But uh, you know, he's getting a lot of what he wants and ultimately we'll

see how it plays out in the coming weeks. But uh, you know, again, the guy loves to start of the pot and that's good for those of us in the typing game. And as as if you follow golf, it's a lot more interesting when when Phils involved. I'll just put it. I'll leave it like that. Has he been suspended? Do you think? I don't think so, um, because that was sort of that would prove his point that the tour is that there are a bunch of ogres and that they don't have their best interests of the players

at heart. Um. That would just give him more ammunition and he would be going to there are guys on the fence about the Saudie Golf League. He'd be like, look, we're trying to we're trying to make you know, make this better for everybody and and grow the game. And look what they're doing to me for growing the game, And um, I think that would be too much what we would have heard from him. Again if that would

have been the case, Yeah, Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think Jamon handsmen overmatched in a lot of this. I don't think you would make that mistake right now. I mean, basically, when when a guy's dig is own his own grave, don't take the shovel away, like they'll just let him keep going. And so I think I think Jay's on the sideline, you know, just kind of smiling ear to ear and trying to trying to let

Phil do his thing. I mean, presumably like he's putting together a nice bouquet of flowers to send them to me, you know, maybe some chocolates. You know, I think that j might might want to acknowledge, but I'm not gonna wait for that for too long. Well, and you'd return to sender obviously, um because but the um But which this brings up another point where I saw one come it that came back. I can't tell if Alan is working for the tour here, are working for Phil? Which what?

Or is there a third possibility in which you're actually not working for either, You're just reporting the truth and letting people make their own decisions about what's going on here. Like, what are we so far gone in the world of actual journalism that you in theory have to be working for one side or the other. There is no actual There is no woodword Adstein anymore. Right, Well, it's honestly, I think why I don't want to take this too far.

But Phil and I have some similarities in that I'm okay if people are mad at me also, and sometimes I just want to put it out there and um and yeah. So this this would be a case where I don't care feels mad at me. I don't care if Saudi Arabi is mad at me or Jay Monahan's mad at me. Like the people I work for are are the readers. That's it. That's all I care about. And I want to give them something that's going to educate them entertain them. And that's the only constituency that

matters to me. I don't I don't care if I show up a tournament and Bryce is mad at me because I just cost him a payday, or Dustin's piste off because he doesn't get to go on the Prince's yacht and international waters and do whatever they do out there when he when he's over in Saudi Arabia, Like that's not my concern. Like my concern is telling the truth and reporting things honestly and and as you said, let the readers decide um. So I'm trying not to

editorialize too much. I mean, and that's that's the whole theme of the book as well. And I think people may now think like this this is next jose to like take down and phil that that's not the tone of the book. I mean, I think it's actually quite balanced, where I just I just tell his story completely, and

there's there's a lot of stuff about Uh. This is written with a lot of affection because it feels a fun at it to be around and to cover and he's his heart's in the right place with the philanthropy and the random acts of kindness and the way he takes players under his wing and really helps uh coach him up in a profound way, and all that's in

the book too. I Mean, what makes feel so interesting is he's very complex and he has these warring impulses, you know, he uh, and I just lay it all out there, and it's it's not a rip job, it's not a hagiography. It's just it's it's the story of one golfer who's led a really big life and so all the great stuff in there and celebrate the victories

and and all his good guy virtues. But there's a lot of messiness too, and there's a lot of complicated relationships and that's all in there too, whether it's Billy Walters, or it's the bust up with Bones, or it's the Saudi episode. And you know, I think I'm not telling people how to feel about film Micholeson. They're gonnad and

they're gonna side. And I think a lot of his fans are gonna love me even more because there's a lot of great stuff in there, and and that does that is has a celebratory tone and and the people who have never been a phil fan will probably be galvanized too because there's a lot of stuff in there that can be considered unflattering. And um so I think that's great if if people don't know what my true feelings are, what my motivations are, because that's not not

what it's about. I'm not I'm not I'm not doing advocacy. Here are public relations. I mean, I'm trying to tell an honest story, what a concept um and and thankfully you're doing it now for the fire Pit Collective, which you know, I've kept telling people we haven't even really really released the true strategy of who we are and what we are in terms of docuseries, concepts, obviously seeing some of it around the grind, but we have others,

and we have more. And I told people for the last you know, really for the last eight months, you really been embedded in the Phil book. And this is you know, this is an excerpt from that. But you're our our four hitter in our lineup is actually about

to just be unleashed into the world of truth. And I feel like, you know, I've always been, if not your number one fan, you know, because you have a lot of those I'm I'm in the conversation and not only for your writing and reporting, but just your general um, you know, guts for for your for your thick skin and ability to just you know, as I said, like Dan jan I'm not sure that I've seen many people have the kind of guts that you have, you know, like Dan Jenkins had for so long, someone that we

both obviously admired. Um. There's more excerpts coming before the actual book drop, in addition to a lot more features and other pointed Um editor, I was on your part what what is what can we expect from this book between now and the actual release of the entire thing? Yeah, I mean it is a delicate dance. Um, how much

of the book do you do you give? You give to people before it actually comes out, Like you don't want them to be so sated that like, well, I don't think I need to read the book because I have a good sense of it. But you also want to. You want to tease them and interest them and give them enough of a taste that, um, they feel they're intrigued. So you know, I have to lean on Simon Schuster a little bit. They have a lot more experience than

that that I do. Um, But certainly you and I are are fired up to do podcasts around the release, and there's there's any number of different ways we can go. I mean, I think what we dropped next is probably gonna be I want to capture some of the fun and the zany nost um of I mean I have there's so many laugh out loud moments in this book and so many unbelievable stories that are Um, you know it's an I roll. But and you can't decide is this guy a cartoon character? Is ridiculous or do I

like him? He fun? I mean, it's all all mixed into one. So I think maybe the next drop should be something like that, just so people don't have the expectation there's just gonna be one bombshell after another. But

there those are. We have a few more we can drop around the release that I think are gonna people are gonna lose their mind over so um finding the right balance for for for readers that and um, And then you know, for sure Simon Schuster is their partners with us and all of this, and so we have to do right by them, because if it's up to you and I, we probably do like an excerpt every week and just give the whole book away by publication day. And that would be great for the fire Pick Collective,

but Simon Schuster be a little bummed. So you know, we gotta we gotta find the right balance. It's good for everybody. But there's so much in this book and I can't wait for people to read it like it's actually it's tortured not to be able to put it out sooner. But it's just it's just as discussed earlier. You never would would drop a big excerpt just far out from publication day. But because the Saudi team is accelerating and was, as you know, it was really coming

to a boil. It was now or never, and so we chose now as opposed to never. But um, well, me, you and a few other folks will have some conversations, probably when you're back from Scotland, and we'll map something out. But there's more stuff coming. That's all I can say. I mean, you've read the book, Matt, it's it's there's there's some there's some big revelations, but there's also some some grace notes and some wonderful little, um you know,

intimate moments, and there's everything in between. So well, we'll find the right balance. I don't know what that is exactly at this moment, but we'll get there. I keep telling people it's the best of Phil and it's the worst to fill and both on and off the course. So it's the best of his of his winds, and you know, highlight highlights of his losses, and then it's the best that he does, you know, in philanthropic you know giving, you know, over tipping charity ways, and then

it's all the other stuff. And that's you know the volatility of this of this man is is really to your point, it's it's it's admits. It's why he is so interesting, you know, in your heart of hearts, Alan, because this actually has come up a couple of times by people in the note do you think Phil is? Do you think Phil is okay? Like? Is he? I mean no, and I mean I don't. I'm not saying

this in a laugh like. I will tell you that I spoke to Phil recently in an interview on Tim Rosaford, in which I approached him to see if he'd be a part of this Tim rose Afford tribute to Tim's life and legacy of a man who you know, who died at an incredibly young age of a horrific disease like Alzheimer's. And to Phil's credit, he agreed to to talk to me. And then we get and then he says, can we do it just audio or do we want

to do zoom? And I said I'd love to have it on zoom because then we can use social clips. And when he came on zoom, he was hugging the PGA Championship trophy. So which was you know, at first glance it was funny. It was like, oh wow, okay, you know he's he's really running this bit all the way through. But then I was like, but I'm calling to talk to you about the life and legacy of

Tim rose Afford. And he stood. He stood there and did the entire interview with the PGA Championship trophy in his you know, like hugging it to, you know, and we're talking about, you know, Tim rose Afford, who died of Alzheimer's, And I'm like, what there is like this this there's this disconnect from sort of what is known to be reality, and he might have he might actually be unplugged from that well for sure. I mean he's he's in a bubble inside a bubble. I mean the

PJ towards a bubble. And when you're when you're a Hall of Famer and when you feel like he's, it's interesting because in some ways he's very grounded, Like his closest friends are basically his college teammates, and they they're just regular guys. I mean, Rob Mangini was one of his closest friends. He sells title insurance and they play golf together, and he's he's kind of his he grounds him and he talks trash and he's his sounding board flow of things. I mean Phil does have people. It's

not just all like Tiger. All his friends he had he had to pay to be his friends, right, Like they're all they all work for him in some capacity. I mean Phil does have a big circle of people different walks of life. And there's a lot of guys from Pebble Beach who they played in the pro am with him, and they have the more for dinner that week and you know they're they're they're pretty solid, dude,

so um. But yeah, I mean he's he's there's an intensity about him, and there's also he's like an adrenaline junkie, right, And I think that he's become so accustomed to the spotlight and to the wager and to the juice. He's

he just lives on juice, whatever that means. And it's almost like his nervous system is a little fried from that from thirty years in the spotlight and all the controversies and all the crack ups on the golf course and all the adulation and all the fame and all the money and you know it, it's it's not a normal existence. We know what it did to Tiger Woods. I mean, he broke his body, He's been involved in scandals, he's been to rehab at least twice that we know of.

It's it's not a normal life. And I think Phil has done a good job surrounding himself with pretty normal people. You know, Amy's solid, and you know Bones was a trusty wingman for a long time. And but he's an interesting guy. I mean, I don't want to spoil too much of what's in the book, but I'll tell you one story that's pretty amazing, um and still makes me

laugh and also cringe. So after after Amy gets breast cancer and you know, there's a huge outpouring of love and support for her, and um, Tiger texts Phil and Tiger's father died of cancer as well, and he Tiger expresses his his support and best wishes and says something the fact that you know, hopefully, someday we'll cure cancer and it'll stop, you know, taking away the people we love, and Phil thanks him and whatever, but he can't resist

and he writes, hopefully, someday they'll find a cure for your hook. And it's just like I mean, it's a funny line. And it's great that he's like tweaking Tiger, who's his lifelong nemesis, but it's not really the moment, you know, like Tiger is sending him a heartfelt text because Phil's wife is sick, and but he just he can't help himself. And you know, we know the house always wins, right. Phil thinks he's smarter than the house, and that's a problem, and so he loves to have

the last word. He loves for people to think he's the smartest guy in the room. I think a lot of that informed why he was so brutally honest with me. Um, he wanted me to know that he was working three different angles and it was important for him that I knew that, and by virtue that all my readers would know that too. But um, you know, he he outsmarts himself regularly, and it was clearly one of those examples.

So it's a fascinating question. Um, you know Phil as a personality type, I mean someone who knows him very well and even in a professional capacity, you know, describing to me as a textbook sociopath. You know, someone who doesn't necessarily feel feelings, and as you're saying, you're you're doing this this rent story about Tim Roselford, and he's kind of making a joke about having won the PG Championship,

and it's kind of like his text of Tiger. I mean, there's it's fair to wonder, Um, you know, does does Phil processed emotions the way most people do. It seems like the answer is no. But um, you know, that's why it's part of what makes him so so fascinating,

because we can't quite figure him out. Well, we'll see what happens next, but I suspect that we're gonna get Phil the humility, Phil at the microphone doing what I think one of the best things that he does, which is falling his sword, apologize, you know, maybe claim claim victory. Like you say, get back out on the golf course,

get back to hitting impressive shots. Maybe even when if it has to be on the Champions Tour, it has to be on the Champions of Whatever it takes, He'll go back quist, end the trophy, thumbs up, signed a bunch of autographs over tip and and and and get back to being Phil. And hopefully for Phil, he hasn't lost all of his you know, endorsement deals and hasn't lost you know, the fan base that has propped him

up for for decades. I'm sure he's lost, he's lost some, but you have to remember that that Twitter is such an echo chamber. And you know, I was my daughter had a playoff basketball game last night, which they won onto the quarterfinals, and um, you know, I was talking to some people there who they know what I do for a living. They're not really hardcore golf fans. And so one of them said, yeah, I heard something that

you wrote a story about Phil. You know, my my husband said there's something big controversy and it's I kind of I said, well, it's a long story. It's like I don't even want to hear it. She's like, but you know, I've always liked Phil and he's always getting into controversies, right, is this one different? Said kind of, you know, he's it's has more geo political overtones, but you know, not really just another controversy. And she's like, Wow,

that's just who he is. And you know that I think that a lot of golf fans are not in the weeds on this stuff, that they're not even really following it. Now is golf Twitter? You know, yes, we're all hot and bothered about it. But the people who love Phil, I think a lot of them are still gonna love him. And has he has he lost some fans, yes, but he's also his brand has always been as like an iconoclass and a renegade, right, and this is just another example. So I think that you know, it may

not damage him the way we think it will. You know, I've seen a lot of stuff on Twitter like Phil's legacy is at stake. I mean, he's got six major championships, he has forty five PGA Tour victories. He's already in the Hall of Fame. Uh, he's been one of the most popular golfers the last quarter century. I don't think his legacies at stake. I mean this was this was this was a this was a gambit by him that may have may have blown up or maybe it's work,

depends on your point of view. But um, I think I think Phil will survive this because he survives everything, and he'll find a way to spin it and it'll be a fascinating high wire performance like it always is. And um, as you say, I'll get back on the golf course and he'll probably win the Masters, So, um, you know, what will Phil do next? I mean, it's been it's been a cheesy ad campaign for a lot of our adult lives, but it's it endures because it's

it's so relevant. You just he's the ultimate wild card. He's utterly mercurial and unpredictable, and uh that's why, that's why he can be such a riveting performer. So uh, I can't wait to see when he you know, he's been up in the Yellowstone Club in Montana skiing and refreshing Twitter, and I'll be as curious everybody else what his next move is. It it's gonna be it's gonna be fascinating. But um, I do think ultimately Phil is gonna survive this. He's just he just always marches forward.

Like I said, you did him a favor because the one thing I don't think he could have survived is an actual deal with Saudi Arabia and Greg Norman. You know, he can, he can hit moving balls. He can you know, undermined, you know, an eight time major champion and Tom Watson. But you can't. You can't do that, And that, more than anything, is why, at the end of the day, I think in his heart of hearts. Whether Phil is going to admit it or his lawyer did admit it,

he did him a favor, So Alan shipnuk. The truth matters. You delivered it. And uh, I can't wait, you know, beyond Phil, I can't wait to see what you do next. So thank you. I was a fun chat as always. And oh, by the way, Matt Janelle alive from San Andrew, Scotland. So it's, uh, you never know where this game is gonna take us. What is it? What time is it

over there? It's like it's after midnight, right one thirty three am, and I'm still buzzing off of a two hour interview with h the great great granddaughter Sheila Walker Is It is a descendant old Tom Morris. She is still lives in the house he lived in, overlooking the eighteenth Green. She sat with us today, took us through her garden, sat with us for two hours, told incredible stories.

Seventy seven years old. Um, I've challenged her putting contest at the Himlas, which I have a feeling she's going to take me up on before we leave here. Just one of the most delightful, impressive, articulate, amazing people I've ever sat down with and don't tell my wife, but I have a crush on a seventy seven year old woman. So it's like the movie Harold and Maud. I love it. Well, I mean, let's just just I mean, that's all great stuff.

When Phil Nicholson comes to St. Andrew's to play the Open Championship this summer, she's probably gonna stand on her balcony and platform. She probably loves film Nicholson and I don't think this is going to change that. So uh yeah, that's that's that's great. I love that. You know, we're sort of the two different polls of the golf world. I'm your a couple of beats this morning. You're you're in uh you're in St Andrew's. We got it covered for now. So I went into the I went into

the home of the home of golf. It is it is actually talk about the bubbles and the bubbles. This is like this is where you drilled down to and it was. It's incredible. So with that, um, thank you again and until next time, I'll catch you with your soon. Thanks. All right, see your parts. M fire, nobody here's getting tired. M settle down and settle in. The story is about to begin, the circles starting to take its shape, seats of field in the tired sun plans its escape. Everybody's

got some glory, just wait unto unfold. Everybody's got some story. Just wait until be to the place, for that is here. All those smiles and all those tears, let them go. Put another log on the figh. M hmm. Nobody hears getting tired. Settle down and settle in. The story is about to begin. Tales were told of war and go lover is lost in a lifetimes dreams ours soul, And maybe you should stop in the sun at the wisdom in the air. Maybe you should pour your heart out.

We ain't go Hayway, find your mercy in the sound as the smoke gets pushed around and your soul. Put another log on the fire. Nobody hears getting tired. Settle down and settle the story. Here's about to begin the story. Here's about to begin. The story hears about to begin.