The States of The Game - Golf vs. Covid-19

people to reschedule and travel to put twenty one. The cool thing about go Hill Park is it's such a community spirit. You know. I got people coming out of the woodward just to just to volunteer to pull weeds, you know. With another logo, Nobody Getting This is the fire Pit hosted by Matt Jane. One of the benefits of being around a fire pit is that the conversation

can go in a lot of directions. In this episode, it's not one good story about golf, it's several perspectives on the state of the game before we get started. To be sure to follow my social handles because on Monday, we're posting a live auction which will include items donated by all my guests on this show, and it will benefit Feeding America, the nation's largest domestic hunger relief organization.

With social distancing in place for weeks now and a flattening of the curb the United States, when and where does science and safety start yielding to the greater good of the economy and mental and physical well being of a country. Thankfully, I'm not in a position to make those difficult decisions. Although there is division and confusion, one thing is clear. We all admire, respect, celebrate, and support the doctors, nurses, and first responders risking their lives to

save others. The front lines of this war are, in most cases hospitals down street. We cry for the people who are dying alone, leaving loved ones who are grieving alone. It's devastating and overwhelming. We are riddled with dual channels of anxiety, not only for the good of mankind, but also for the future of our families and finances. So where does golf and the golf industry fit into all this?

Some could care less, and I obviously get that they have more pressing priorities and concerns I can only imagine, but almost all of my friends work in the golf industry. My life and my future are tied to a game. As trivial as that sounds, it's real, and admittedly I

find a slight comfort knowing I'm not alone. The National Golf Foundation estimates the game supports one point eight million jobs and is an eighty four billion dollar industry, with almost one in every nine Americans playing some form of golf. It's the number one outdoor, pay to play individual participation sport in America. As of April sixteen, there are fifteen states with mandates in place disallowing play. With that being said, and having recently launched this podcast, I found a few

friends and leadership positions within the industry. I scheduled a Zoom roundtable, looking for insight into where we are now and to get some sense of what the future looks like. At some point we will emerge from our homes. As the n GF reports, the itch to play golf is intensifying despite financial and personal anxieties, When and how can we play this game safely and responsibly by minimizing the

risk of life and death? Joining me on this call where Dr r A. Sapaya, a functional sports medical expert who I've worked with at the Golf Channel for the last few years, Doctor Rro is only available for about a half an hour. He ducks out in the middle of the call. Marty car CEO of car Golf Group, which is based in Ireland and includes car Golf Travel and car Golf Management. Josh Lesnik, president of Kember Sports and Kember Lesnik, which manages over a d golf facilities

in States. Tom Pashley, president of Fine Nurse Resort, which is often referred to as the cradle of American golf. John Ashworth, who's the co founder of Link Soul and who manages Go to Hill Park, a municipal course in Oceanside, California. And Lou Thompson, owner of Forest Students, a multi course

facility in the middle of Michigan. Why don't we just sort of start with and around the horn of sorts in which you kind of just give your perspective of of the way COVID is impacting your your professional world. At this point, we're really getting into sort of the industry perspective as it relates to the course or courses, or the destinations or all the properties that you represent.

Um dr are he's limited time, so UM I want to also sort of include a lot of his perspective and commentary on the front end of this before we end up having losing that about one third. You know, from where you sit, where are we at as it relates to COVID nineteen uh, you know, looking at America as a whole, I see signs of it starting to tap it down, meaning we've hit a plateau, right, And

that's very reassuring, very promising, and it's great news. And I see that even in in in our state in Florida, where we were expected to have quite a significant surge happening in the last week of April into the first week of May, and we've been we're looking at the numbers and it's not going to be as bad as we thought it's going to be, which is great news, okay.

But the other side to this is as quickly as it shot up and it plateaus, don't expect it to come down as quickly that the down slope is much much slower. Okay. So that's where, yes, it's great news, but I think the situation is going to linger on a little bit longer than more people have the patients. We still have to put those measures in when we start coming down the slope. Okay, So social distancing, handwashing, all those things are going to be still around at

least for another month. And from what I can see, there's there's one model that I saw, um which I trust actually from University of Washington. They they look at a model that I saw that if you remove social distancing measures on first of May, it predicted a significant surge in August. You know, and if that that's the kind of scenarios do not want to face. So looking looking from the front line, that's what I see right now as it relates to golf dr are right here.

Let's say you know, the Orlando area, Winner Park nine is closed, Winner Pines is open, Interlocking is closed, Country Club of Orlando is open. That's you know, and then one state is total lockdown and one state is playing off like it was you know every week as a member of guest. That's the kind of the confusing intersection of where the game meets sort of reality and the

rubber meets the road and sciences is meeting economy. Yeah, it's it's frustrating because you know, I live on on Eagle Creek golf course right and here before the match just came in, everything was as normal. And then when the states started climbing down a little bit and they put the curfew in place, in Orange County, people were

still playing golf. And what the club did was they said, all the practice areas shut down and they've put distances between the practice the boxes and everybody is on their own cards, so there's no removing flags. So you know,

I do see that as a good thing. Uh, if you can absolutely be strict and be diligent and watch out for each other and keep the distance, I think going on the golf course, exposing yourself to sunlight, getting some access life, getting some you know, stress out, and actually giving a sense of normalcy is very very important at this time. But I share your frustration, like why

why are some places completely shut down? And then the other places have you know, some golf still being played and then you go to you know, down the road

I'll work and it's completely open. You know that that's kind of and at the end of the day, just to be clear, as it relates to science, being you know, more than six ft apart, being out in the open air, not touching flagsticks or rakes, being an individual carts or you know, no caddies or carrying your own bag walking only all of that in theory, you know that that's a very low risk scenario in which you'd actually pass on the virus or get and you know, it's it's

no different than us working out you know, outside my my my front y'all. You know, I'm out in the sun. I'm doing my own thing. You know, even if someone else running past me and the six ft away, that's completely fine. So if you can do those things that you very you know nicely pointed out. If you can do those things, then I think playing golf is not

a risk high risk endeavor. No, um, all right, thank you dr All right, So, Josh Kemper Sports hundred and twenty courses running the gamut of low green fees to the to the bandon dunes and stream songs of the world and sprinkled throughout the country of the How many are still open, how many are closed, how many are on the brink of of closing for good? Yeah, Kemper Sports.

We manage very diverse portfolio, as you're saying, you know, our very first management contracts and nine whole municipal course in Vernon Hills, Illinois and then going on to the as you said, the Chambers Bass, dream song banded Dunes of the World and pretty much everything in between. And we operate in twenty five states across the country. On Fortunately at this point only thirty of our facilities are

open in some capacity, meaning se are closed. And it's uh, you know, it's such a severe hit on each and every one of the businesses, even the thirty percent that are open. Yes, I can say right now that in in places where golf is open, the golf courses are frankly busier than they've ever been. Obviously our sport is always weather dependent, but um, they're busier than than they've ever been. People uh need as as Dr Era was saying, you know, the the exercise, the sunlight, the entertainment, the

stress relief. Um, it's a it's a great uh just form of a healthy lifestyle. Um. So we're seeing that. But of course, the golf courses that are open are now operating under you know, different procedures. Uh. For example, you know, no one no one's going in the pro shop. There's no food and beverage, uh no, uh no touching the flags, that no rakes. You know a lot of places no carts. Some places you're allowed to single ride

in a cart um. And it's very different all over the country, some places county by county um as to how we operate. So what we're doing at this point is just trying to advise our clients through this time. A majority of the properties that we run are managed on behalf of other owners. We still do own some least some and have some consulting agreements, And at this point we're really just advising our clients and are leaders at each course how to manage best through this pandemic.

And it's I can't stress enough what a severe hit it is on on the people in this business, the hourly people, the people that get their paycheck from from golf or the independent contractors, the caddies. This is such a severe hit, and the longer it goes on, really the worst it gets for people. How much longer do you think before this is just a tipping point of

pure disaster. If we're not there already, look if this, if if we can't get golf courses open, you know before July one, Um, it's it's a it's a disaster scenario. And I think you know everyone who's leading our country through this knows that, Um, whether it's whether it's golf or restaurants or lodging. Um, you know, I think everyone's aware of the unemployment rates now getting up to where they were at the Great Depression. How many months can

a small business go with with basically zero revenue? You know, you're talking at daily fee golf courses that are closed. You have zero revenue? You know, can you afford to keep the superintendent and afford to keep some staff to keep the golf courses alive? Where do you draw the line? Everyone's such a key staff when you're open, but when you're you're closed for business. So obviously there's a lot of a lot of damage there, and uh it frankly,

it can't can't go on that much longer. That's of course an economic opinion, and um there's a science side to this too that we all have to abide by. So it's really a severe situation, Uh, Tom patially of Pinehurst, When did you guys realize this is this is a no fly zone and we need to be responsible. This is a place that you know is considered the cradle

of American golf. Where do you guys sit on all this. Yeah, we've got you know, nine golf courses plus the cradle, three hotels and tens and restaurants, and so it was March eighteen when the State of North Carolina mandated that the restaurants closed. That for us, that took two hotels with it. We've closed our two smallest hotels, and then

we held out hope we stayed open. We consolidated everybody into the Carolina Hotel, the flagship hotel, but then it became to an extent of safety issue for our employees and for our guests, and it also just became an economics issue of not needing to have a large hotel open. So on March twenty we closed the Carolina Hotel. Now

are our nine golf courses are still open. Piners has over golfing members and so as Josh mentioned, you know, there's the beautiful spring days that we're enjoying right now. The dog Woods and as Alias are in full bloom. It's it's perfect, and the courses are in great shape. So we have a lot of golf being played by our members. But typically this is when we would be full full of people kind of coming from the Northeast, people who had just watched masters. People who've got the itch.

They would all be here right now enjoying it, and and they're not here. What what kind of safety stipulations are the members operating under and and how how is that also impact like how about the maintenance crew and sort of the infrastructure of providing that experience. Yeah, it's uh, we've gone from employees down to two hundred employees. A lot of those are on the golf maintenance staff just

to keep the nine courses mode. Uh, certainly it's a it's a reduced maintenance practice then you would normally have. But we're trying to keep the courses in good enough condition so that when we are able to reopen to the outside world, that that everybody will have a great experience.

Same things that were mentioned about single carts, um, you know, the little PVC in the in the cups so that people don't have to reach all the way in and touch everything, the flagsticks, the rakes, um, all the typical things that everyone else is doing. Is or the practices that we're adopting and and what we've seen, you know, a trend is in walking. You know, that's one of the things that I hope will come out of this is that more people will enjoy the walking game. We

just got a shipment of push cards in. You know, you can use a pushcard on pine ER's number two now, which we didn't used to allow. But now we've got push cards on all nine of our golf forces and we're seeing a lot more people doing that, and I think that's hopefully going to be a nice outcome when this is all over, that more people are going to

be walking the game. Can you imagine a scenario in which in sort of the greater part of Pinehurst, North Carolina, if you sucked out all golf and just shut it down, what does what does that do? Yeah, well it is you know, is we've we're making judgment calls. We're trying to maintain safety. We could be open, the hotels could

be open right now. But we do think that, you know, to an extent, the cradle of American golf is out there carrying the flag for for a lot of people, and particularly golf in North Carolina, if not in the country. So we're gonna do everything that we can to make sure that we're safe, but to stay open as long as we can, and so far that the state has recognized that it's important to communicate the safety initiatives that

you're taking. We let the state know what we're doing so that so that they don't get misinformation and and get a random photo of a foursome that looks like they're standing too close together. I mentioned our members earlier. Our members are doing a little bit of policing because our facility is still open to the public. People are

coming here and playing golf that are not members. But there was a group of about six of them gathered together on the putting green, and one of our members went over to them and kind of wagged a finger at them, because you know, if things get a little sideways, if someone shows up from the state and they see that we're not maintaining these social distances, they could shut us down. M Luta Sen Forest Dunes. You have you know,

you purchased this resort several years ago. You've added the Loop by Tom Doak, You're about to open a short course at ten whole, Part three course by Keith rad and Riley Johns, and you've got a scheduled opening, not unlike Bandon Dunes has a scheduled opening of Sheep Ranch. As you know, the first part of June. Where do you sit, lou What's what's your perspective of being in the middle of Michigan very much a destination resort on what seemingly was going to be your greatest year by far.

As of now, we were scheduled open this Friday. Uh, the Snight of Michigan has got us on a shutdown order. Uh. We don't know when we're gonna get told. We don't know if that's my one. Uh. The governor might come out in the next week or two and move that to June, which is the members that we pardoned, you know, which creates a huge problem because we need staffing. You hard for me to get staffing in there today to get ready because you call people, I'm gonna stay at

home order. You know, I don't want to. I can't go to work. Um, so you know, I can't wait till the day we open and bring in seventy people. So uh, and not knowing when that is it's a huge problem for it. We don't know if even when we open golf, if the restaurant's going to be open or restaurants carry out today, we don't know what we're gonna be able to do UM at this time. You know, it's pretty sad times. How many how many employees do

you have? It for us stance today, I've got about twenty some employees that's on the Pyroad, that stays on the pyrow year round. And uh we'll add about sending about the employees when we first open. Uh, but I don't want to bring them people onto the Pyroad today if I'm not gonna get open until Junior, Dy long. So you know, I'm sitting here kind of talking to management daily. What do you hear? What? What can we do? Uh? At this time, we don't know. And you're maintaining these

courses as though you're going to open. I mean that's a lot of maintaining they're going to be perfectly open. So uh, but again we don't know what that is going to be. Uh. And you know Tom said it bestball ago. You know, the biggest issue we are dealing with is we have to do what's best for Psychety, for our employees and our customers. So we're putting a lot of things in place today while we're not open, so we can best protect our employees and our customers

when we do them. Marty Carr of car golf travel obviously facilitating you know, trips within the UK and and UH and also a vast majority of people coming from the U S. You're you're at a total rense. What's the situation right, It's not it's not unlike what's happening in the in the golf course side. We we are all also the management business like Kemper that managed golf

courses and they're all closed over here and Ireland. Basically it was about eleven and a half thousand cases of of the coronavirus and we have about four hundred and six deaths. So it's there really are slowing the curve here. It's it's just at about five percent at the moment, and they're hoping to relax the restrictions here, the stay at home restrictions by the fifth of May. So we are involved in an aggressive campaign to lobby on the

safety of golf. And I've flipped you on an article before about how a doctor was quote in the Irish Time today talking about he's the foremost expert in infectious to these in Ireland about how it's safe to play golf. And I think it's really just I know it as related to the travel question. But it's important that that that that that that the science it comes out about golf is supposed to the industry because the industry are obviously, like every other industry, is trying to get back to normal.

And as far as the traveler is concerned, that clearly, you know, zero revenue, everybody is moving their reservations to one it's it's, it's, it's it's a bit of a

mess came upolis very quickly. So all that the April May June businesses all rebooking for and the suppliers, the golf courses and the hotels are all offering credits to rebook for, and most cases people are looking for full refunds, but in many cases we would have passed on those deposits are large part of those deposits to the suppliers, And so it is that we're talking to a lot of people about rescheduling trips July, probably in the mix of the moment, and hopefully there will be the ability

to start traveling again maybe August September, but in reality we expect expect most people to to reschedule and travel to one then is going to see a huge amount of rebookings U and the Open having moved to twenty twenty two from St. Andrews is a big help for that because clearly we see one probably being of the peak and I think things may be getting back to level part in two. So that's a very our view

of the world at the moment. But again it's really just a lot of problem solving and dealing with a lot of clients who don't know what to do. And clearly you're looking at two years of revenue for two years of costs and one year revenue, so it's very very challenging times two years of cost one year of revenue. That really sums it up, right, I mean pretty much

pretty much. Yet, I had a meeting with my CFO on the first of March and we were looking at revenue has been up seven percent a year on year, three percent ahead of budget. Have days great here And thirty days later we're sitting down and he's like, this has like being in a movie, you know, I mean, we're here just having a completely different conversation. And his his assistant said to it, well, the only problem with this movie there's no superhero going to fly in through

the window. So yeah, I mean, it's it's the same one over but look at it, well, we get through it. I just wish it was. It's it's easier in a small country like Ireland to unify policy and and lobby. I think I think your situation is a bit more fragmented. It is all about the safety of the customer and the and the and the staff and indeed every and the owners if nobody wants to go into an unsafe environment. So I think it's really clear that we need to all make a very clear case that that it is

a safe environment. But it's really important that we get the medics on board. A lot of the medics in Ireland a golfers. So that's our challenge for the next ten days is to make sure that people get out there and and and really really make you make it very clear. Of the four hundred and fifty courses in Ireland roughly, how many do you think are on on on in serious you know, a threat of having to close for good. I would say that there's a lot of golf courses that are on life support anyway, you

know what I mean. And and and and this goes back ten years. We've been very much part of managing assets on behalf of investors or banks. I had a college today, but the head of the Golfing Union of Ireland, which is the governing body of of golf for Ireland both north and South and the UK, is mandating different closures than the Republic and that causes a bit of

a conflict there. But I did say to him that if we get in as part of this loosening up on the early May, you know, I reckon thirty courses probably won't open if it goes to the first of July. You're probably talking, are wow Now. I suspect though that the courses that that that you guys come over and play are not the ones we're talking about. These are the domestic bread and butter golf courses that the average guy.

We have seven hundred thousand people here who are on state support from two hundreds or half a million people have gone on state support here, and the government here has been very quick to offer small business support. So that is staving off some of the the the armygadon of of of shedding jobs. It's it's giving us ninety days too to buy time to see if we can get back open. So I guess it's probably easier when you're in a small boat as opposed to it the battleship,

you know, speaking of small boats. John Ashworth, who took over the lease and is the overseer of all things goth Hill Park in addition to a small business like Links Soul, you're you're you're trying to keep this this little boat known as the goat Hill Park afloat um. How's it going, John? Well, we, uh, we closed on March up until then we've kept you know, like everybody else. This thing was such a kind of caught everybody off guarden.

It kind of came in waves to where okay, you know, well we'll not have people, uh pick head touch the flagsticks. Then we'll take away the rags and then you know, we we we we kind of whittled it down to where we had when we were open. The last week we were you had to book online, you had to pay online. We were just doing on sums um walking only, yeah, walking only. Uh and uh you know you could literally, you know, come out to the course and not get within twenty ft of a human being, you know, and

play golf. And it was it was actually working. We we were we were booked. We were booked from seven thirty in the morning until five five o'clock at night. And we're doing nine whole loops, so we can you know, people could play eight team, but they had to book

both nines. But anyway, it was you know, I was all for doing whatever the consensus of the government wanted to so, you know, again, like you guys say, I mean, it was safety first, for the for the for our employees, and for the and for the customers, and that was first and foremost. And we were one of the last counties in San Diego County to be open. But when it came down to shut we you know, obviously, okay,

we'll shut it. And you know, and we're we're a you know, public daily fee, you know, small green fee, you know, low overhead situation and uh no food and beverage, really no food and beverage. So you know, for us, it was it was pretty easy to manage, and I

felt like we had the safest possible environment. But now it's you know, two weeks later, which feels like about three months to be honest with you, Uh, you know, we've I've had to cut back some staff, uh, you know, and but the cool thing about got Hill Park is it's such a community spirit. And uh so we've got a few projects going on just to make the course better. And you know, I got people coming out of the woodwork just to just to volunteer to pull weeds, you know.

So it's it's from that point of view, it's pretty cool. But but yeah, it's it's crazy times. I hope, I hope we can get back after it. From what you know, I think things will totally be different for the next foreseeable future in terms of safety. And I agree with pass On. You know, you're gonna see a lot more people walking playing golf, which is a great thing. Uh and we may be walking only for a while. It could be looked at as planned recreation, you know, like

very disciplined recreation for people. So you know, if we all do it right, if we if we practice the safety measures, the it's you know, it's it's beneficial for the for the community and for the health and recreation for people. You know, I can't help knowing what we know and seeing what we see, and you know, put golf at its core of its culture is about policing

yourself just at the at the base of all this integrity. Um, you know, Josh, you know, for someone who says, you know, I don't give a shit about golf, what does golf mean? You know? People are dying, you know, which, of course

you know that that is the situation. But at the end of the day, don't you think that this is there is a window a place for some sort of compromise in which, yes, we can acknowledge the the health risks, but we can also advance some slice of that economic puzzle that allows for something to sort of go on and operate safely as a golfer. It's frustrating because I think we all know that, as you're saying right at the at the soul of the game is it's a

self policing game. So to think that golfers uh would not do anything other than play by all these new rules that all of us, as course operators and owners are are doing. I mean we are as everyone is here preparing our golf courses now for reopening and what the new normal is going to become. And the frustrating part is, you know, right now golf seems uh to be a really safe thing. Perhaps it could be one

of the first things that comes back. You know, just just yesterday in the state of Texas, the governor reversed the closure of golf courses and allowed judges in their own jurse stiction to decide whether golf can be open or not. And in several counties golf reopened. That was specific to Texas. And again every state is different and sometimes even counties are different. But that that was a positive sign that that state recognized, UM, not only golf

is important to the economy. UM and I think the golf industry has done a good job in the last few years. UM. You know, led by the p G A and U s g A and PGA Tour, PGA America and UH creating We Are Golf and which is a group of you know, golf people involved in the golf industry sharing that this is you know, a billion dollar industry in the United States and employees you know, hundreds of thousands of people. And um and is really a safe activity to do and allows people to get

out of their house in a safe way. Still practice social distancing, have some entertainment, have some camaraderie, have uh the exercise that goes along with golf. And that's the frustrating part that I think we all in the industry realize that this is a safe thing to do, but we're not doctors. So this is again this is science versus the economy. But I'm hopeful that golf is one of the first things in the economy that can can reopen and give people an outlet party. I think you

sent me this article as well. Australia will will allow golf and tennis to open and on May one, acknowledging and identifying these two sports is something other than you know, rugby and soccer or whatever else they may be. Uh. And and to your point of Josh, having these conversation of what the new normal is, does it feel like we're we're inching closer to something that's that's sensible. I think so. I think, like clearly, I think that golf.

Golf will be one of the first to return. I don't see people, you know, rushing to the cinema or you know, jumping on a plane. First thing. I don't see people, you know, going to a Pact concert, But I do see people go to the golf course if

they're allowed. I mean a lot of the lot of the steps we've taken and part of it that the operating procedures we're putting forward and we're going to widely circulate them is basically members and member of guests only and getting all the contact details for contact tracing and people not traveling to the golf course together and make it absolutely irrefutable the golf can be executed in the safe manner where you don't need to go anywhere, you know,

paying payment online. As Josh said, I mean the catering is gone pretty much at the pro shop. I mean basically keeping people at the door of the building. So I hope. Well, I was talking to, as I said, some of the Gulf officials today, they taught that golf slipping in under the the early opening here on the fifth and may could be a bit optimistic, and I said, well, we've got to try harder, because you know, there's no

reason that can't be. I mean there's a lot of a lot of posts going around the social media now about people standing in queues and walmarts and and and supermarkets and you know, a single gulf of walking down the fairway. It absolutely makes no sense. So hopefully we can get that message across and I think it's it's a hold to all of us to keep pushing hard on that, you know, really really hard on on the simple facts, the the new normal passion. What what do

you what do you? What do you envision on what we call quote new normal coming on the back end of this. Yeah, we're working on a lot of that right now, between hotel operations, food and beverage operations. You know, hope of your meetings right now shifting to sort of you know, the future. Yeah, that was actually a theme of a meeting today. I'd likened to going through the five stages of grief, you know who we've we're going down this this slope and and we've kind of bottomed out.

And now as I drove into the office this morning, people were out. We were beginning to plant flowers as you approached the Pineers Clubhouse. And so they gave me, they gave me hope. You know, we're we're planning flowers right now, anticipating the arrival of guests, and we're trying to decide what are the things that that those guests are gonna expect. The most important thing that someone said this morning is if people were coming here, they're coming

by choice. So Let's remember that they're coming because they want to and it's our obligation to make sure that they're safe. But but we need to be anticipating what are the new things that they're going to expect from? You know, again back to hotel operations. Do you does the bellman, you know, get us involved in unpacking your

car as he once did. Do you throw the keys to the ballet or or do you have a whole different expectation of what you want from a From a housekeeping standpoint, you know, something is as crazy as do you expect your room to have been empty for forty eight hours? Uh? You know, do you want to do you want to check in right after someone has checked out? And what are the cleaning procedures and protocols? And almost that you know that safety band as you enter your

room that gives you that sense of security. Okay, this room has been cleaned. I've never been a glass glassware guy in the bathroom, but you know, forget about that disposable cups. You know, you I want to rip the plastic off of the cup and know that that I'm the first one to touch it. So there's just a myriad of things like that that we're going through. I think the least of of our our time is going to be spent on golf. You know, as we've said,

the golf is outdoors, it's natural spacing. Maybe it'll be more geared towards walking the golf cart protocols maybe a little different, But I think we're going to be spending a lot more time figuring out what does a guest want from a food and beverage standpoint, What are we allowed to do? And what do you expect of your your accommodations when you check into a hotel? What about Where does maintenance come in all this? Where is the staff that actually you know, huddles in the maintenance barn?

And how you know there's this there's the underbelly of golf that is that is necessary? How how? How you know? A lot of people keep saying keep you know that it's the maintenance that's the problem. It's the superintendent, the staff and the crew that manage the golf that's the problem is And I've worked on maintenance crews. You know, it's a pretty isolated for the most part. If you get on your machine or you go to your part of the golf course, it can be a pretty isolated experience.

I never was working shoulder to shoulder with a large group people. We may huddle back in the same barn, but Josh, what's how do how are you managing all of that from a from a from a staff standpoint, Yeah, you know, I think what we're working with our superintendent's where our company is organized as we have regional agronomous all over the country that helped lead their superintendents at at each property. And and really what it's all about

for us is coming up with the best practices. So um, you know, just for example, for a superintendent calling there, uh their crew in and saying this, this is when I'm gonna get you set up and get you set up to go out into your spot on the golf course, and whether that's going one at a time or three at a time and everyone's staying ten feet apart um, but getting them their daily instructions and getting them out on the golf course when they need to be out

on the golf course. It's really not necessary to have everybody you know. Of course, during normal operation, Yeah, there's team building. There's occasionally team lunches together, uh, team meetings, Safety meetings, all those things, and a lot of those can be carried out in in different ways where you're practicing social distance, and that's you know, that's what it's

all about. And you know, there's right down the you know, of course, is that you know, in seasonal areas in the Midwest and mid Atlantic that are just getting ready to open, where we have really small you know, hopefully you can keep your superintendents and typically you need to keep your mechanic and maybe a couple of people. We have a lot bigger crews now, but you know, maybe you're using some growth regulators on the on the golf course, so you just don't have as much mowing to do. Um,

you know. So there's there's best practices that we try and give all our superintendents again just to manage the best way they can to get through this. I heard stream Song redoing their greens on the Red and the Blue at a time in which you would have had a jam packed t sheet making a choice to say maybe we can Hey, we're zero we're zeroed out. We might as well spin it into some sense of positive

because we can. Right yeah, you know, I think there are there are some silver lining good stories if you will. There's way more many bad stories and good stories. But you know, it is a time where if you were planning to do some improvements to your golf course, even if they're smaller agronomic things where you wanted to arrify all your fairways, you know, the golf courses that that are going to come out of this, okay, that have budgets, that have capital funds. Now is a great time to

get projects done. Um, whether you're closed or partly closed. And we all know, as Tom said, you know ten restaurants. That's a part of the experience that people want when they come to a golfers or obviously so even if the golf course is open, which stream song right now, the black courses open, but really things are closed down for the for the most part. So it's a good time. We're gonna regrass the greens on the Red and the

Blue course. So when we you know, again no one knows exactly when we're gonna open, but in theory open next fall with you know, perfect putting greens that at all three courses, and so now it's a good time to do it. If if you can't, okay, well, Lou Lou Thompson Forest Dunes. Just going back to you for a second. You know you've you've had this momentum at for students, obviously the loop of reversible routing and now the investment into a new short course. You were telling

me you were your bookings were up se from last year. Yeah, at the end of end of February, our book endo was up sevent over last year at the same time. And last year was a good year. Last year was a good year. And uh, you know today, UM, a lot of this is big groups, corporate groups that were expecting to lose some of them just because a lot of them flying in from all over different states. We don't expect that to happen. Uh, do we know how much we're gonna lose. No, we don't. Um, we just

have no idea and it's Tom. Tom will tell um what the end results it's gonna be. I mean, we're gonna be prepared, We're gonna be ready, We're gonna have the course machen, We're gonna put in every safety percaution we can. Uh. I feel like you're golf in northern Michigan. I mean we're sitting on guarteen hundred acres in the middle of eight hundred thousand acre National Forest. I wish I was there today instead of where I'm at today. I can't think of a safer place I'd rather be

than not there. Uh. And if we put in all the practical things that we should do to help, you know, come back this virus potential, Um, you know, we could have a good year. John. How much? How much longer can you can you? Si? Dana? And are you getting help from the City of Oceanside? Are you able to apply for some of of what's being offered in terms of, uh, you know, support for small businesses and how is that going?

Not at the moment, no help from the city. And uh having a tough time getting the payroll protection program in place with my bank anyway, So that's been very frustrating. Um. You know, I'm hoping to see us back up and going as soon as possible, but I'm kind of gearing for June one for some reason. Um, and we should will be all right. Uh, you know, if it goes much longer than let's say, July, it's not looking real good. I have to figure out some sort of creative financing

just to you know, pull things together. But you know, we'll figure it out. You know, I'm an optimist, you know, I know this thing is tough on everybody, but I know that golf is h It's such an important game to so many people, and it is resilient, and it's going to be part of the healing process once we do get back and be able to go outside and and sort of interact with people once again. So it's a very important game to society and to humanity. Uh So we just all have to band together and pull

through this thing. Passion In terms of getting creative, I know you you guys, you got creative, created an online auction and raised over three hundred thousand dollars for your employees. Talk a little bit about that and how that you know, what came of that, and now where is that? Where's that going? Yeah? That was that was a lot of fun. That was a bright light when things were pretty dark around us um started out. You know, it got very personal when we had to say hopefully a temporary goodbye

to a lot of our employees. So so necessity got our minds churning, and on a whim, we threw up some t times on course number two on on our Facebook page to have a little auction, twenty four hour auction and see if people would would buy them, with the proceeds going to help employees. And and you know, a couple of people paid a thousand dollars for a forsome on number two, and so the lightbulb went off. While we've got an opportunity here to do something really neat,

and so we we began brainstorming. He's once in a lifetime Pinehurs experiences that we wanted to auction off. Um. We did things like a weekend stay in the Donald Ross cottage, dorn At Cottage with three rounds of golf. We we were inspired by by Riggs escape to Pinehurst, and we put together a package where you could pay play all ten courses over six nights. Um, we put together something this was great. Gil Hants agreed to come and play pine ER's number four, the course he redesigned

with a forsome. Bill Core agreed to walk pine ER's number two with a forsome and explain the architectural details that Donald Ross put together. So just we we have our brewer, our head brewer is gonna co cobrew a beer with someone who auctioned or bid on this auction item, so really neat unique experiences specific to Pinehurst, the Dorknet cottage, for instance, Donald Ross's house sold for dollars. So one, it was great fun to put these items together too.

It was great to see the generosity of people what they were willing to do to help the little guy, to help our employees who are in in great need. And and three the creativity of of what we were able to put together with so much fun. So we we have extended healthcare coverage for all of our employees through the month of May. Originally we were gonna we were gonna get through April and decide. Now we can tell them they're they're covered through the end of May.

Um we're delivering care packages to our employees once a week. They come by the hotel and we're giving them food and essentials, and we really been able to supplement those efforts. UH This past week we we gave Little UH an Easter meal and some Easter egg decorating supplies and it was neat to see our employees use those. And then we have an employee Relief Fund where employees and the greatest need can go to their fellow employees who control a pool of resources and they make grants and gifts

and are helping people. So, like I said, it was a bright light during a time of great darkness. And more than anything, it reminded us that our employees are are the reason people come to Pinehers. Yeah, they're nine golf courses in great hotels, but its their interactions with our staff that are become lifetime memories. And it was great to see people step up the way that they did to support our folks when we need them. I know. You know, caddies is something that's that's brought up a

lot independent contractors. Obviously pineheers for students a lot of courses in Ireland as you know, junior caddy academies. But then you go Josh to Abandon and stream Song and some of these, some of these places you know, and people say, oh what you know, I got feedback like I don't give a ship. You know, what do I care about caddies? Well, what we care about caddies is

as much as we care about anybody out there. They they've moved to an area there, they work their asses off, they enhance an experience and it just happens to be not unlike getting your haircut. It's a it's a very it's a very intimate relationship that you have with said golfer as a caddy, exchanging clubs and carrying clubs and you know, reading putts. Where do where do caddies fit in all this? I know a caddy fund to start a bandon Duns that's raised over a hundred thousand dollars

right now, how do you handle and manage that? Josh? You know, people, people may originally come to Pinehurst and places like Bandon and Sand Valley and stream Song for and and forest dunes of course, you know, for for the golf courses. But the reason they come back is the people, the relationships they build. And nobody spends more

time with the customers than the caddies. So while they you know, are not not employees, um, they're hired by the golfers, and there are like lifelong relationships that are made between golfers and their caddies. Our golfers keep more in touch with our caddies then than anyone. You know, this is there, this is their point of contact at the resort. They have personal relationships with them that go

beyond just caddying. UM. So they're they're really a vital part of our game, um where where they're used at the at the resorts, at the clubs that have caddies are just just a vital part of the game. So I think, you know, seeing certainly you know, Pine Hursts has been a leader and what they can do for raising money. The band and Dunes caddies really started their own fund because they started it because a lot of customers reached out to them and said, you know, how

can we best give money? So, uh, they partnered with a local five oh one c three abandoned so that the money that's given can be tax deductible for people. And like you said, I mean in the first day, I think they're up to a hundred and fifty thousand yesterday was maybe the first day or the day before, and have raised up two hundred and fifty thousand bucks to be spread amongst the you know, three hundred or

so caddies. And you know, um, there's a lot of people in the Gulf business, whether they're hourly staff or caddies that may live more on a on a paycheck to paycheck or loop to loop basis, and when that goes away, you know, hopefully they've been great squirrels and have stocked some money away. But but how long can that really, Like, how long can you expect someone to last? These are hardworking people that are so vital to our

experiences and so vital to our game. You can't expect them to have three, four or five six months of living expenses saved up. Some of these people have families, and and so I think you just kind of have to do your best and try and support these things, like the Bandoned Caddy Fund, like the Pinehers Fund. I know the Outpost Club has something called the Outpost Foundation raising money for caddies and locker room attendance and people

that live you know, great on tips um. So, as usual, the golf industry is filled with a lot of great people, and there's a lot of great ideas, and there there's people that want to help other people in this industry, and so I think we all need to support those as best we can. Marty, it feels like we just had clear, you know, just had sort of really put two thousand two nine in the rear view mirror, and then, as you said, overnight we're right back in the thick

of it. And even if not worse? Is um Is there anything? You know? National Golf Foundations is for the percent of golf courses right now are open, four up from last week. A lot of people are quick to say golf is dead, Golf is dying, Golf doesn't make any sense, and yet it's so much more resilient and so much more, so much tougher than we get a credit for. Is that your sense from where you sit in Ireland maintaining that sense of positive outlook? Yeah, I

would actually say that. You know, we kind of call it the Green Jersey Brigade and after two you know, Ireland got absolutely it's very very hard the last prosession and we have to nationalize the bank debt and and it was it was a horror show. So you know, the IRISHIP have been used to struggles over the years. I think everybody's come together and it's a Green Jersey brigade and I think this is the honeymoon period because subsidies that are in that flowed through much quicker than

than John had had a line too. It's been run by the revenue over here, so you know we're getting sevent support for anybody under thirty seven thousand for twelve weeks, and that stays the decisions to some of the really hard decisions that need to be made on employees. Social distancing is here to stay in about what anybody says, and it's a lot longer than thirty sixty nine days. People are going to be staying clear of crowded spaces.

So I think Gold probably will be a winner. And I think it's up to all of us to really make sure that when when it does open over here. What I've been warned is that everybody's got to get on board because if if one or two people mess around and don't apply by the rules, then they'll shut everybody down. Final thoughts loop. No, everyone still needs to help support the golf industry, and I think it's good for people to get out. Uh and you know, we

might have a good season. People have been stuck in for three months. You know, get some exercise, go play golf, take up golf, get your grandkids, get your brother, will spend a day working on the golf course. Uh. That would help the golf industry better than anyone anything else that could happen. It's getting more people involved in golf and getting outside and enjoying ourself or a change, John, that that would help the soul industry, right, that whole

industry of our soul. Right. That was that's the point you've always made, Right, It's going to be important to uh on the whole healing process. I think of coming out of this thing, and I think people are gonna have a lot better attitude and just a different perspective on having the freedom to actually play golf. You know. I think that's gonna be Uh, It's gonna be a liberating experience once people can come out back out to

the golf course. Any message out there to other municipals like yourself, you know, hang in there and put your arms around the community and really you know, sort of bring them in, bring them into the process somehow create you know, so they feel they feel ownership into what you know, what what there is for the community. You know,

it's it's a it's an important gathering point. It's it should be the center of more communities, to be honest with you, golf courses, I guess past plant some flowers, right, get ready, Matt. I'd tell you know, we we may have gotten a little so we we had, like Lou we were pacing to be well ahead of last year. Last year was a record, and I maybe we were beginning to take our success a little bit for granted.

And where I when I think about what I'm gonna do when I see that first, you know, ate some of folks on a buddy's trip walking up the brick path to the clubhouse, I'm gonna be so thankful, you know, I'm not gonna just on my way to the next destination. I'm going to be thankful that they're here. You'll violate all social distancing just to you. Just whatever we do, keep Riggs away from a William Jesus. But I hope were beginning to appreciate the little things again. You know.

I think we're going to be thankful for what we do have and and that feeling will last, hopefully for a long time. Josh, he Are you guys learning something every day from the feedback you're getting and the reflections you're making as a company and the on the on the wide you know sort of birth of what you you know, sort of the wide range of facilities. Are you guys, just are you guys also taking some time to kind of think about how it's going to change

your business forever. Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt I think. I mean, we're so fortunate we have got the most

talented management team. I'm talking about our company, Kemper Sports, led by our CEO, Steve Skinner, who is I mean, as sort of as Tom's alluding to, we're working harder now than ever on behalf of our clients and our customers to figure out what this is going to look like going forward, because, as Marty alluded to, you know, golf may reopen, but the new normal there may you know, are there going to be those big Monday corporate outings.

Are there going to be wet You know a lot of these golf courses rely on other things other than just daily fee golf and big occasions and social gatherings and weddings, and that part of the business is gonna be different for a long time, maybe this whole year and maybe in the next year. And and so thankfully we're led by this brilliant management team. They're learning every day, working hard to help our clients through this and uh and hopefully, you know, on the other side, we're all

going to be stronger for it. Marty, Um any any words of wisdom you've seen it all. You've been in the golf industry your whole life. You're born into a into a push cart, probably into a carry bag. I guess, m you know, what do you got for us, buddy, Give us some I wasn't. I thought we were on the home run in to play a lot of golf, and the just kind of said me retired out of Waterville. But I guess it's one last lap of the track

care before we do that. I think, Look, I think at the end of the day, sometimes when you're in the middle of the woods, it's very hard to see out through the trees. But look, I think we will come through it. I think I think it's six months we'll be looking at this in the rear view mirror. And I think, as as Josh, and it is a wig, of course, I think it's there's a lot of things

that you know. My biggest trill every day now is cycling two and a half kilometers and go for a swim in the sea every day and I just love it. And so I think I think, I think it's back to the simple things in life. And I think are resident Budge. I think we're very lucky to be in the industry. We're in him, and I think a fraternity of golf will prevail um and I just can't wait to raise that first point of Guinness down the water when they let me out of the home arrest. This

is the fire pit. And I've actually had the pleasure of being at a fire pit with everybody on this call, and in some cases at one time. Which is which is you know, lucky me? But actually we know your favorite fire pit, as you told us an episode one of this podcast, is at goat Hill Park right there off the first he I'd give anything to be there right now, one of those Irish guinnesses and and being surrounded by you guys. But lou what, what's your favorite

fire pit? Well, Matton, four students have several fire pits were enjoyable to me. And you go up to a group of twenty guys from Ohau or Indiana or New York that's never been to a poor students and set around and visit with feel and get to do them. This is gonna be a hard problem for me this year. I try to shake a d hands to day when I'm at four students. That's gonna be a little problem this year. I don't. Yeah, do the elbow bob yeah, yeah, yeah,

the knuckle throw, you know, just throw. We're sitting here, you know, talking about our sympathy. We don't need to forget all the people who has lost loved once because of this virus. And uh, you know, we really feel for all these people and so unfortunate that it's affected so many people's lives that ever shaped form of the country in the world. Yeah, and and the doctors and

nurses and first responders. It goes you know, really, it doesn't go without saying, because it's always worth saying, especially now. And you see these images and I can't I can't imagine. Obviously, I can't even come close. Um pass um favorite fire pit, some someplace you love to put yourself in when you're and your deepest and darkest moments. There's a there's a really nice one right behind Dornet Cottage, um Donald Ross's home.

You get a view of the Third Green. I get a feeling maybe right before we reopened, we'll we'll we'll spend some time there and like like Marty said, hopefully six months from now we're all looking back on this and shaking our heads and thankful that we got through it, but I could see having a little bit of introspection there and Ross, I'm sure faced some adversity while while he was here he didn't have the firepit. We just

put it in. But I'm probably gonna find myself there. Yeah, Marty favorite fire pit, Well, we're building one in Waterville outside a little sheep being at the back of a little golf lodge. But what happened not sat around at episode U in set was has actually golfling something quig on the water and I've spent many a night there and it's it's it's that's when all the stories and the suns and all the bullshit is it's flowing, so that would be the one for me. Josh Um, you

make a good fire pit. I know you up like seven Bayard. I have to say, it's a it's a special skill of mine and something I love to do. And I think, you know, maybe there's so many I love, But the fact of the matter is, you know, it's it's not always where you are, it's who you're with. And and one of the small silver linings about this stay at home order and we're all or as Marty culls it, house. The rest is getting a little bit more time with family, and um, I should say a

lot more time with family. And it's pretty special because we're all running in different directions. You know, things maybe on a little different budget right now, but you still have the time with your family and that can be really special. Um. So it's really who you're with. I mean the fire pits I've been around with you guys. Obviously abandoned dunes is uh, that's my favorite place on earth, no doubt. But just being in my backyard with my

kids around the fire pits pretty special. Alright, One last thing, Marty, give us a good joke, Get us out of here with a laugh, give us somewhere. If we are around the fire pit, we always turned to the best joke telling. Now Thompson's like one of the greatest storytellers I've ever heard, and as she's got a good laugh. But Marty, you're you're like the best joke teller known demand kind. So hit us. Hit us with a good one, would you please?

About what about how kosher does it need to be? Well, it's a podcast and we're around the fire pits, so you know, you can all use a really good laugh. Give us one the one about along those long tail, short legged, hard back, doubling fighting dog. I'll try to

keep it very sure. That's about these two guys. They go into an Irish pub and this guy is pretty hammered and he's sitting at the bar and the barman comes over and he knocks it laughs off the bar, and before it reaches the ground, this dog he has with them grabs the glass and swallows the choosing a swallows at home and he looks over the bar of the barman and he sees this. He's what one of a dog is that? He said, it's a long noticed,

long tail, short legged, hard back, doubling fighting dog. Jesus. So anyway, he has a chat with his brother and he comes over. So I tell you, I'll bention the knights Takens. We have a we have a kerry blue out the back that will take that joke on and we'll have a we'll have a fight. So he said, it's a fighting dog. We'll have a fight out the back with the two dogs. So the hole the patrons, they emptied the tail. They bet that the Knights Takings.

They go out the back and they get the carry blue out of the shed and they pet the carry Blue and they blow a whistle and all the bets are riding and outgoes to carry Blue, and it runs towards the long noose, long tail, short legged, hard back doun and fighting dog. And along those long tails, short thick and hard fact double and fight dog snaps his neck off. The capitates to carry Blue, and the two lads are devastated. And they woke up and they said, look,

we've been raising fighting dogs on our eyes. But what's one of the dog is that? He said, it's a long nose, long tailed, short legged, hard back doubling fighting dog. In some countries they call them crocodiles. It sounds better. It sounds better around the fire pit. I love you guys.

I appreciate, appreciate your time and perspective. Obviously, um you know when we say we are all in this together, that that goes so far beyond golf and and our lives, and it goes it goes global, right, So appreciate you guys and what you do and how you do it. And I hope to be around a real fire pit in the near future. And when we do, um, well, those long nose, long tailed bubble Pact short thing and we'll raise one Irish Guinness Chairs Chairs. Guys, thank you

for listening to the the fire Pit. To support the band and caddies, go to go fund me dot com and search Bandoned Caddy Relief Fund. To support the Outpost Club's charity, go to Outpost Foundation dot org and be sure to follow my social animals as we're posting a live auction which will include items donated by all of my guests on the show, and it will benefit Feeding America, the nation's largest domestic hunger relief organization. This podcast is produced

by Alex Upeggy, edited by Rex Lint. Theme song by Joe Horowitz. Please rate and review on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review featured in a future episode. Got a question, comment, or a story for us to track down. You can find me on Twitter at Matt Janella or on Instagram at Matt Underscore Janella