The club expects their golf proth and their assistant pros to make sure everything's perfect.
We want a club row that can play like Tiger, teach like butch merchandise like Ralph Lauren, and tell jokes like Bob Hope.
Right, it is absolutely The problem is the amount of pay for the amount of work.
It doesn't mesh for clubs.
If you don't make these changes, you're not going to get the people you want. Your product is going to suffer. People are not going to want to come play there, They're going to go elsewhere, and you're eventually going to go out of business.
Is seth while helping He's the right guy in the driver's seat, But is there a vehicle he can drive that can make it any better?
People are put on earth to make everybody's lives better, right, Like? How can he not want to be surrounded by those people?
Right then? And that's what our PGA professional is.
You know, it's not perfect, We're not perfect times far from perfect.
We're moving the needle, making a lot.
Of progress and I hope people are noticing it. But that's not the point either, right. The point is leaving the room better. And I'm going to keep fighting to do that every day.
Put another log on the fire. Nobody here is to give the time.
Welcome to the fire pit with Matt Janella back for episode four of this series of the Club Pro Crisis. In episode one, there was some context and history of the club pro and there were some baseline issues that were identified and discussed. Here's Robin's Manly of Breckenridge, who after twenty years as a PGA professional left the industry and got into real estate.
I don't have the perfect answer, but it is absolutely the problem is the amount of pay for the amount of work, doesn't mesh.
Episode two was a deeper dive into where we are now. Here's but charmon.
This is where we are, this is where we have arrived at this position now. And there are so many golf pros in the country today, head pros they can't break eighty, that don't really know how to teach. Their job is to sell shirts and hats and stuff and clubs in the pro shops so the club can make money on it. And they're paid a salary to do that or maybe a small percentage of it. Well, that to me is not a golf pro. That's a clerk that's a golf pro, a guy that handles all the
teaching and clinics and everything. The men's associating women's association. The clubs have taken all that over.
Committees run all those things.
Now, but yet the club expects their golf pros and their assistant pros to make sure everything's perfect. Everything has to be run right. We need this is what we need to do. You go to apply for a job today and you sit down with a committee that's doing the interview and they're telling you, this is what we need you to do. This is this is the pro we want. This is what we want from our pro time. What are you going to pay me? Well, this is
what we're paying to go. Really you want all that for this and that sounds cruel, but that's reality.
And episode three was discussing some possible solutions. Here's Shane Ryan again, who wrote the story for Golf Digest in May of twenty twenty two, entitled the Club pro Crisis.
Yeah, in terms of fixing it, you know, the really interesting thing I found when I started this, I thought it would be a money thing that you know, they weren't making enough money. That's really not the case. You know, some head pros make really good money. Money for assistance even has gone up, you know, quite well in the
last five to ten years. The problem is time. The time is the thing that's killing them, and especially for young people, either who are still in the industry but thinking of getting out or the ones who did get out. They're looking at the head pros they worked under, who may have had the dream job right that they said, this is where I want to be. And what they see is that that head pro never sees his children, that hed pro got divorced, he's an alcoholic, he's depressed.
Whatever the case is, they go, even the dream job is doesn't look good. It's kind of terrible. And so time is the critical issue. So you need to instead of paying your assistant twenty thousand dollars more in your head pro twenty thousand dollars more, you need to hire another assistant, which is more expensive, right, but that's the thing. More people is the only thing that reduces the collective
hours that everybody has to work. And the solution is simple in that sense, but not simple for these clubs to actually do because it is obviously a budgetary.
Cost is seth while helping.
You know, I think the PGA of America is doing absolutely everything they can. I left thinking that, you know, they understand the problem. I think there's limits to what they can do, you know, I think they are They're not a labor union, but they are providing mental health
counseling for people. They have, you know, tons of programs to try to get people into the industry, and I think, you know, in terms of the consultancy stuff when they're hired, I think they are spreading the message to clubs that these are the changes you should make. So I think their heart is in the right place, and they have the best of intentions, and I think they are doing good.
But I think that just by the nature of their organization, you know, they can't wave a magic wand and change this overnight.
And this is why I'll go back to seth. Wow, he's the right guy in the driver's sept But is there a vehicle he can drive that can make it any better? Is he driving a Volkswagen or is he driving a Mercedes? You know, well, what can we do to make all of this better, To make make the game better, make it better for all the people involved in it.
I don't know.
Before we get to my conversation with Seth Wall, the CEO of the PGA of America since twenty eighteen, I want to thank a few sponsors who make this podcast possible. Let's start with AG one by Athletic Greens Nutrition made powerfully Simple. You've seen the ads and thought, what is that. It's your daily supply of nutrients and gut health. I drink it in the morning before a cup of coffee. This is my answer to trying to stay healthy and active.
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their people and products ever since. Go to Dormy Workshop dot com and use promo code fire Pit fifteen for fifteen percent off your next purchase. Or go to the Pit shop at Firepitcollective dot com and order one of our dormy gift boxes which includes a new firepit headcover and matching stash bag. Plus you get a sweater, hat and T shirt. Okay, time now for my conversation with Seth Waugh, CEO of the PGA of America for the
last five years. Waw is the former CEO of Deutsche Bank, and prior to that, he was the CEO of Quantitative Financial Strategies and he was the co head of Global Debt Markets at Merrill Lynch. In other words, the man knows a lot about money and leadership. He's incredibly well connected and respected in the world of golf. He's a member at some of the most prestigious clubs in the country, and he worked with the PGA Tour to create the Deutsche Bank Championship in Boston. He met his current wife,
Jane on a driving range. Wah has five kids, and one of his sons, Clancy, played at Wake Forest and SMU. Under his reign as CEO of the pg of America, Waw has created a member Deferred Compensation Plan, a retirement program for his twenty eight thousand pros. The program was deemed a heavy lift and a huge success, with an aim at improving the lives of his membership and to help in an effort to recruit new members and or
retain current members. Waw, who's sixty five, has also been at the wheel of the move of the pg of America headquarters from South Florida to Frisco, Texas. It's a six hundred acre piece of land with two championship courses, a lit par three two acre putting course, an Omni resort, and a one hundred and six thousand square foot building which has an indoor golf performance lab and interactive exhibits that inform visitors about the history of the PGA of America.
This was a five hundred million dollar partnership with Omni Stillwater Woods, the City of Frisco, its economic and community development corporations, and the Frisco Independent School District, and they already have on the books twenty six future pg of
America championships. In one article in the PGA of America website, Waw is quoted as saying, I think it's one of those very few cases where the reality is better than the dream, which brings us now to the reality of the club pros in which for many of them has looked a little more like a nightmare. This is my conversation with Seth Waw, which took place last October, So keep that in mind when I get to the question about Live. I know you're busy. I really appreciate you
taking this time. I got into some hot water on Twitter because I was in a podcast and someone asked me, what are you excited about? And I said, oh, we're doing a docuseries on the dreamers, these mid level tour pros who are risking everything to chase the dream of playing golf professionally and earn a living playing golf professionally.
And I said, you know, it's there's something wonky out there, because the pool of people who can shoot sixty five on any given day is getting bigger, the pool of people who can earn a living playing professional golf is
getting smaller. I said, you know, as opposed to the club pros, you know, in some cases can't break eighty and they you know, they they they can make an earnest, They can make an honest living out there, you know, making on up to one hundred and fifty grand a year, where these club pro these dreamers are going backwards eighty to one hundred thousand a year. Well it was a
bit of a throwaway line. I shouldn't even have included a comparison to club pros, you know, But I was just trying to show the example of even you know. And then well that clip got cut out. It got put out on Twitter, and I got like an onslaught of negative negativity from club pro saying, first of all, I don't make one hundred and fifty grand. Second of all, I work eighty hours a week. Third of all, like you know, and I was like, well, hold on, I'm
not trying to pick a fight with club pros. I was just trimply trying to you know, this got clipped, I said, in full context, I talked about club pros for forty five seconds in a one hour podcast. I was talking about you know, mid level tour pros and what we're doing as a docu series. And I said, but welcome to Twitter, man, Yeah, no shit, right. But what ended up happening seth is I I did get you know, there was five percent who just got really personal and nasty, and I was like, oh my god,
I can't even deal with that. But then I did listen to a lot of people who were like, hold on, you know, club pro has their own grind, you know. And I was like, hey, I hey fair, you know, just like Superintendent, like the agronomy aspect of the game too, right, And I said, maybe this is an opportunity for me to learn more about Club pros more, learn more about
what's going on. And so obviously, you know, I've now interviewed upwards of eight different clipro giving me their all different perspective, and I've got Shane Ryan coming on, and I got all these different voices, and I thought, you know, obviously, you being you and where you sit, this is a great opportunity hear from you and I and I wanted to start with you know, and I know you've told me this, but I'd love to hear it again. Why did you feel so inclined to jump in here and
try to help, you know, PGA Pros. Why did you feel the desire and need to like get involved.
Yeah, well, look, you know my you know my background, but I you know, I come from the son of a couple of teachers. My father is a teacher and a coach, and you know, I thought that's what I would do, frankly, and somehow I found myself on Wall Street and spent you know, thirty five years there and have zero regret and had a great run and a great experience. I'm really glad I did it. And then I got asked to do this, and I, you know,
I was very comfortably I was. I was a partner at a private equity firm and you know, had a really you know, interesting job and a great trajectory. And I kind of took a gulp and said, look, I'll never have a chance to have more impact on more lives than this, right, you know, golf, despite the fact that I'm not particularly good at it, and I came to it later in life. I played a lot of other things. It's been you know, my family and my friends.
It's like the biggest impact, you know, the biggest influence of my life.
Like I wouldn't know you, I wouldn't know.
I can't remember the last relationship, deep relationship I have that didn't have something to do with golf, either you know, met him through golf him or hearth rough golf or or you know, cement to a relationship or whatever. Right, and so I think it's perhaps the greatest engine for good on Earth, and I mean that, you know, charitably, and all those numbers are mind boggling. Every other sport borrows our sport to do that. It's everybody's not everybody's
most people's second sport. People fall in love with it. The relationships, the lessons, the values that you learn, the time you get to spound your family, the places you get to go. I don't know what I do without golf, right, and so here's this game. It's given me so much, asking me to, you know, give back. I was very honored,
very flattered. And if you think about the PGA of America, like we're the largest sports organization, or we've got twenty eight thousand men and women that are out there, you know, touching people. And my belief is that if I can kind of make twenty eight thousand lives better, I can make millions of lives better. I we you know, it's got nothing to do with me really, but we can make you know, millions lives better right through this incredible game.
And so that's it.
You know, it's it's pretty simple, and it's not like some you know, angel or saint. It's it's it's selfish, like I it makes me feel good to make people's lives better. It's like, I don't know what could be more fulfilling, and so for me it's kind of full circle. I've kind of come back to being a teacher and coach,
if you will, in some ways. And I learned a few skills and in my years in business that are applicable, and I hope and you know, I just I feel like, you know, this organization should have the most should be the most balanced, most informed organization in the game because we touch it at every level. The first shot you hit, whether it's junior league to the Ryder Cup. You know, men, women, seniors, veterans, you know, all our our our foundation, which is still
incredible stuff. You know, the ability to turn, you know, make the game look more like the rest of the world. So maybe the rest of the world will behave a little bit more like the game. I mean, the possibility is to get up every morning and you get you know, fifty things that you do to try to leave the room better you found it, and that's exciting and and again a gift to me, you don't mean, to the game that I get a chance to try to leave the room better and impact those lives.
Where does it stand in terms of your progress of having an impact on these twenty eight thousand people.
Well, look, I.
Hope we I hope we've had an impact. I think we have. We've certainly moved the needle. I think, you know, again, I wanted to make those twenty eight lives better.
And that continues to be, and that that will be forever.
You know. I have this image that someone has told me that the Golden gate bridge is never They've never stopped painting it, right, So I have this image of a guy, you know, finishing the last breaststroke and picking up his bucket and walking to the other side and starting all over, right, And I think you know the good news, you know this, Look, this is a perpetual institution that is for you know, to make our members' lives better and to you know, leave and grow the game and make.
The game better.
And so that will never stop, right because you got every year you've got to raise the bar and in a variety of ways, and the principle, you know, sort
of remains the same. But we've you know, at first, i'd start with, you know what we've had to deal with, right, which was COVID, and and you know, sort of, you know, because of my career in most I had to deal with a few things like nine to eleven when we lost a building and some lives and and you know, the financial crisis, and so they're all you know, different in how you respond, but you know that the principles are, you know, getting everybody to the other side, right, Like,
how do you how do you figure that out, whether that's you know, families in nine to eleven and a business in nine to eleven, or you know, trying to repair an economy that's hopelessly broken to you know, how do you keep everybody safe? And and and uh uh and those that are most in need, how do you how do you bridge them to the other side of it? And so you know that that's you know, I don't want to say rewarding, but it was you know, I think it was put in a place to try and
help when when it was needed. But in terms of priorities, you know, one of the things I'm really proud of. So we've created a deferred compensation plan which will create you know, and we'll be in place next year, which is one hundred years and making if you will, we figured out how to how to create a.
Way to.
Uh to uh, you know, compensate our professionals in the form of deferred compensation for for tasks that.
You know that are beyond the call of duty.
Like I can't pay a teaching pro more for for giving lessons, but I can give them pension points if you will, for uh, for coaching a junior league team or a women's clinic or whatever it is. And so, you know, hopefully we're creating a nest egg. You know, so many of our pros are out there without a safety ned right, there's no way to create wealth, and they're kind of uh, you know, making a living hopefully
and surviving, but hard to sort of accumulate wealth. And this will be an ability to to do that through the power compounding. We're giving them small sums of money, smallish sums of money every year that compound over a career, and you know, you retire with something that is significant. So very proud of that. I'm proud of how the
game has grown. You know, obviously everybody wants to give COVID credit for it, and I think that's true to a certain grief, But but I also think we were pretty intentional about how we reopened the game and both
on the professional side of things. We were the first sport back, first went back on TV, and from a participation standpoint, we worked with the CDC and Doctor Fauci to create kind of you know, we I had this kind of belief that we could be part of the solution as part of part of the problem, right and and you know, so we got to Doctor Fauci, it got us to CDC. It was okay, how do we you know, at its core, in the height of COVID, you know, people needed outlets, the need to do something
safe and you know, for mind and body. Uh and I said, you know, I'm carrying my own bag on two hundred acres, Like that's pretty safe, right, And uh So we started out that way and you know.
Ten minute intervals, don't talk to anybody.
Don't touch the flag, all that stuff that we that we did, and then as it's staged, it would sort of okay, let's let's add cards and then let's add
a halfway house and like whatever. So we did this thing back to golf and rallied the the industry around it, which isvolved and to you know, make golf your thing, which is an industry wide effort which we've kind of championing to to both grow the game and diverse by the game for what I talked about before, and we have you know, one hundred and twenty people from all the golf bodies, UH, the equipment companies, you know, Top Golf, et cetera, et cetera, all those sort of entities that
have bought into this industry wide effort to do that as opposed to you know, the the individual efforts by each of those uh industry. So I'm proud that we've kind of brought the industry closer together and in lots of ways which think us to the benefit of everybody.
I mean, you know, if you think about it.
From a business perspective, if you were setting up golf today, you wouldn't set it up in the way that it looks right. You wouldn't have five different bodies. When it's the us GA, the RNA, ourselves, the PGA Tour. It all kind of makes sense. But they used to view themselves as competitors, and now we view ourselves as partners kind of the board of directors of the game that are going to work together to.
To to make it better.
And so I'm proud of how we've helped to unify the game, you know, and proud of the growth. The game looks very different than ever used to. It's getting younger, you know, for the first time maybe ever. It's starting you know, the two fastest growing cohorts or our women and people of color. You know, that's that's good. We had a lot more work to do there. I don't mean we're declaring victory. So I think we've put a
lot of things in motion. And I think, you know, we tended to be, you know, sort of a an institution that was protecting kind of our grandparents game as opposed to making it something for our grandkids. And so the innovation aspect of it. I've lived in a world of disruption, and I think you either get either disrupt or you get disrupted, or you get run over. And and that's going to happen. And we're seeing in a
lot of different ways in the game right now. But the opportunity to be a part of that change, to embrace that, embrace golf in every form, whether that's top golf, which is at first was viewed as a thread and now as you as a partner, as a gateway and that sort of mindset and an innovative mindset is something that's reruly key to.
What we're trying to do.
And then you know, trying to again in the aspect of trying to make our members lives better. Like you know, our guys are tired, right like this is you know, it's been a great run, amazing, it's exactly what we wanted to do, this incredible bull market. But they're not necessarily benefiting from that in the way that they should, right Like in a bowl market, everybody should do well.
And I don't mean our pros are doing less well, but they're working you know, longer hours with just as many or fewer resources.
Uh. And I think what's happened in our game over the.
Last you know whatever twenty years, let's say, is the game has gone sideways, maybe even shrunk a little bit.
Is that the thing that you could squeeze was kind of your your people, the kind of aspect of it right where you kept investing in the golf course, you had to have a perfect you know, augusta like you know, conditioning, the experience was getting better, the F and B kind of everything around it, and the one cost aspect you could you could kind of squeeze was was you know, the people and those are our our people, and and so we really, you know, as the game has grown,
we haven't added in most cases, it's not true everywhere, we haven't added any more resources.
So everybody's just working.
A lot harder for kind of the same amount and that you know, and again these are broad generalizations. Obviously, it's not true at every facility, and so we're trying hard to sort of tell that story that look, if if you're going to you know, this is great that you've got this boom, but you're also going to need to have that resources and and so we're trying to build a pipeline. We're trying to educate facilities as to
what that means. There's been a number of articles kind of written about it, which you know, I think is is you know, I talked about at our annual meeting last year, kind of shouting it from the rooftop. And we've done that, and I think it's having some effect. And our our compensation levels or which we track every year, going up to a certain degree, probably not quite enough yet. Uh, And we're getting a little a bigger pipeline at the
universities or PGM programs and other things. So we've got some green shoots, but there's still a lot of work to do there, and so that aspect of again making our pros lives better is really important and getting changing the mindset in the industry of of you know, taking advantage is probably too strong. I don't think they're trying to do that, but it you know, our guys have service hearts, right, and guys and women have you know, service hearts, and they're out there trying to please and
create a great experience, and therefore they're working. You know, if they were working seventy hour weeks, a lot of them are working eighty hour weeks because you know, the pap sheets are full, and that's just what they do is kind of survive, and we want them to thrive rather than survive.
I guess what I'm trying to say.
Someone said it to me that, you know, tour players or professional golfers could be considered takers, PGA pros would be considered givers.
What do you think about that?
I think it's really well said, and that doesn't mean that every PGA tour player doesn't give because I do think they give the other ways. But I think, you know, again, my parents are teachers. I think that's the soul that our folks have right there. Their service minded there, you want to make people's lives better. They're pleasers, and you know they're trying to take something they love and give
it to everybody else. And if you already love it, they want you to have the best experience you can have, right And you know, I think to be a competitive golfer to a certain any athlete, I shouldn't make a golf you know, there is a sort of selfishness to that in some ways. And and you have to be in order to compete at you know, the highest levels.
And doesn't mean you're not a good person, just means you you know, you're you're you're out there betting on yourself and and you know, eating much kill right and and so you know, these a lot of these guys are amazing friends.
And I don't mean to.
I'm finding myself in a trap where I'm sort of disparaging tor Pros because you know, they're some of my favorite people on earth. So I don't mean to that at all, But I think there is a different mindset of you know, you know, eating what you kill as opposed to you know, cooking something for somebody else to eat, right, And I think that's that's what it's, you know, hunting and gathering to feed people, right, And I think our people are feeders and you know, feeding of people.
Is this really just kind of an awareness issue?
I think it's.
I think it's an aware Look, we you know, are twenty eight thousand are members, but they don't work for us, right, like we're not you know, we work for them.
In fact, it's reverse.
And so you know, I can't pay them more, but I can try to get people to pay them more by having them understand and then having them realize that they're not an asset, They're not a lever. You can pull their people, right who have kids and coll and tuitions to pay and and car payments and you know, et cetera, et cetera, Right, and and and they work, you know, in a great industry doing something they love, but but ungodly hours.
Right.
And it's a little bit you know, too much chocolate ice cream, right, Like it's great until you know you have you have too much? Like people say, well, do you play much? And go, no, I'm in the industry. I don't play at all, right, And it's kind of like, well, that's crazy, Like if we can't play, like, who can, right? Like, so I think it's a matter of freeing our pros up to do what they love is just to play more.
Play with members, play with guests, play with you know, with if you're at a municipal course, play in a you know, a Skins game or whatever it is you do, right, Like, how else are you going to you know, understand your customers better? And I think, you know, you know, I guess has given us a lot of lessons, a lot of things. But I'm told that Jack Stevens always had to head professionals, which you know it's true today because
he realized that he always wanted somebody there. But he realized if there was only one of them, that you know, they weren't going to have a life and they weren't
going to last very long. And so we always had two to to sort of so somebody could be there and somebody could go to their kid's soccer game, right, And I think it's really smart, and so I think, you know, people got to realize that the crisis, right now is a crisis of lifestyle and work balance and you know and inflation and all the things that are
going on for our individuals. But the real crisis is for the facilities, right because if you burn these folks out there isn't you know, we don't have a pipeline right now. That's because you know, young people coming into the industry are looking at it and going like, well, that's going to be my life. Like so I'm going to work really hard and be an assistant and you know, live in live in a dorm room and then you know, fifteen years now, I'm going to get that. And that's
the reard. There has to be, you know, something that you're working to an end. It's just like it's all passionate. People aren't doing this to get rich.
I don't.
I don't mean to say that, but but they do have to have a life and do have to you know, be able to create a great life for their family. And so you know, when you're choosing between you know, re solting a fair way and you know and hiring another professional or or paying the one you have more, you got to you know, that's that's what the decisions have to be made. And I think the facilities have
to understand that. You know, we had a demand problem, you know, sort of pre COVID or it was, it was auton arize a little bit anyway, but to call it from the financial crisis till twenty eighteen or so. And now we've got a supply problem, right, and they're equally problems like you know in COVID. You know, we had a demand problem that turned into a supply chain problem because of all the issues around it. That's what's
going on here. Like I'm you know, I've been in markets when all life and and something's got to give, right, and so you know, how do you cure.
Supplying a man?
Well, if there's an undersupply, you're going to sort of pay more and you know, create more supply. And and I just think I think we're under resourced and probably undervalued as a profession and and that needs that needs to change. And I think awareness is the beginning of that and then the reality of dealing with it. And we're seeing that again. I'd say, there's green shoots people.
You know, I'm asked to speak about a lot. I've spoken at you know, various kind of you know, whatever it's the m G a annual meeting to you know of club presidents, that kind of thing to talk and talk about it.
And and so I hope, I think we're having an impact.
And that's what like, that's our job, right, We're a fiduciary of a perpetual institution.
And and we need to you know, make sure that as a national entity that we can do certain things to to to promote the game, promote our members.
And and there's no bigger crisis from our perspective, that's our crisis.
Now in the industry. In my view, it's not a demand problem, it's a supply problem.
Is unionizing an option, you know, I.
Like to think that you can do it without that.
I mean, I'm not a not anti union, but I think I think, you know, I am a I am a market sky, right, like, I believe in supplying demand and markets.
If you have a free market, they correct themselves.
And and so I'd rather have that be the solution than some you know, you know, some sort of manufactured solution. I just think, you know, owners need to need to take care of their assets, and their assets the biggest asset in any industry I've ever been in any business anywhere or its people right, and so making sure they're value properly is the first that right.
Is this fun for you?
Yeah?
I mean my wife Jane might have a different answer than mine because she watches, you know, it all go on.
But it.
I love a challenge.
I'm much better if I have twenty things going on, and if I have one, I might get a little little floppy and lazy if I only have one.
If I have twenty, I know I have to kind of go at them all.
So yeah, I'm pretty good at having fun. But you know, I it's it's probably the most fulfilling job I've ever had, Let's put it that way. And it hasn't been without its challenges. And you know, we're we're a have historically been a little bit of a slow moving institution and we're trying to pick what we need to pick up the pace in order to deal with a lot of these things. And I think we're getting better at that.
I've got really good people that work with me.
And you know, the rewards are the sneaky ones, like everybody says, oh, you know you're in and out of right cup trophy or whatever.
That's cool.
That's great, but like you know, the day to day when you bump into a professional somewhere who recognizes you and says, hey, thank you for doing I really appreciate what you're doing for the institution, or going to our PGA Works Championship where you know, we it's essentially the hbcu UH National Championship, which we've taken over and see you know, having a workshop and seeing the hope and
those kids and what you're doing. I'm going to the Junior League National Championship this week in Scottsdale at Greyhawk and seeing those kids out there. So it's these these moments that aren't on TV frankly, that are the ones that.
Keep coming back.
And the people that you meet, I mean, are you know, we talked about it already, but like you know, our people are put on earth to make everybody's lives better, right, Like, how can you not want to be surrounded by those people?
Right?
And And that's what the PGA professional is and it you know, it's not perfect.
We're not perfect.
I'm far from perfect, you know, if you've been competent and but we're you know, I feel like we've were moving the needle, making a lot of progress, and I hope people are noticing it.
But you know that's not the point either, right. The point is.
Leaving the room better, and I'm going to keep fighting to do that every day.
The Shane Ryan article specifically highlighting all these different examples or or these people's stories. And I've heard from a lot of people that you meet with small groups from time to time or invite groups and try to get feedback. Is that sort of part of your process? Is just listen? You doing a lot of listening obviously.
Yeah.
Look, I've never walked in their shoes, right, I've been a member of great places. I know a bunch of I knew coming in, a bunch of amazing pros, some of the best on earth.
Right, I've been lucky enough to be around.
Them, and and but I'm trying to understand, you know, every you know, walking in everybody's shoes. So you know, I try to be with as many members as I can be with in every form to understand, you know, what their life is like and how do how do we how do we make it better? So you know, I have always had this belief in business that even
running a bank, which I was lucky enough to do. Like, it's not diving to run in a restaurant, right, Like you've got to be out there and and and see what the you know, the customers are ordering, Like is the you know, this is the stake medium rare and the salad cold? And who's on the cash register? And you know, what's the experience of your of your customers, right?
And so I always try to spend fifty percent of my time with clients when I was at the bank, because that was how I got to know what was going on in the markets, what my you know, what what we were serving, how good are people were, uh, and what they needed? Right, And so I think it's the same thing here, like trying to be out in the field and experiencing it and understanding it.
There's the only way that you can really I mean, I can have a theory around.
It, but I've also got to have a reality about how it works. So I invited all the time, and you know, if somebody stops me to talk, I you know, I'm late for my next meeting, because I feel like that's the most important thing to do at that moment is learned from that person, and particularly if they have issues, you know, we and obviously.
During the you know, the COVID crisis was.
It went from you know, oh my god, we're shutting down, to how are we going to make a living?
To okay, we reopened it. That's awesome.
But now our pros were like, wait a second, we're front line workers, Like nobody else is going to the supermarket, and yet we're out here, you know, servicing people and putting ourselves at risk, and so how do we make them safe? And then how do we get the game to come back and the way we did, and then how do we deal with this incredible boom that has happened because I think, you know, we were.
Intentional about bringing the game back, and I think, you.
Know, all of Golf's you know, sort of not all of them, but a lot of the sort of barriers became positives. It's like, okay, takes too long, right, Well maybe that's okay, Maybe maybe I do need a four hour walk and uh and you know it's it's outdoors and like that's a good thing, and you know, so it it. I think we've flipped the prism on the game. And I think, you know, the greatest thing about what's
going on right now matt Is. The game has had its ups and downs, for sure, but for the first time, and it's it's it's history.
Golf is cool, and golf's never been cool.
Right, And and that's awesome, and we need to make sure we continue to promote that, right and have all these different ways to consume it now, Right, you have top golf, you have put and all kinds of different forms you've got you know, simulators you've got And I again, I've always believed, like you know, if you go shoot hoops in your backyard, you played basketball that day. It wasn't five on five with reps, right, but it was
it was it was hoops. And and so you know, if you put on your carpet today you play golf and and you know, and you took up you know, check out your swinging in a mirror like you play golf that day.
And we've got.
To embrace it in every form we possibly can't part threes, you know, three holes, you know, hitting balls in the way like yes, like work for all of it every day. Anything that is good for the game is ultimately good for our professionals.
And and and.
So we're going to promote it and every way we can and celebrate it and every way we can. We're trying to create, you know, a digital platform that you know, that becomes the kind of you know, digital highway for our professionals and something that are know, I'm not even sure they know they need yet, but like we got to create it because that's that's where the puck's going.
And uh.
And so we're going to keep trying to you know, you know, be forward thinking and innovative and again create the game for our kids' kids.
Right.
I've spent a lot of time promoting superintendents because in my mind, I'm kind of a superintendent of heart. If I wasn't, if I didn't get a job at sports, I ollciat I was going to go to Penn State Agronomy school. So I've always and I grew up with a club pro who was kind of a dick, you know, he was kind of played head games and took golf away from us, free golf. He was like he was like he was squeezing us, you know what. Yeah, and
it wasn't a good guy. And and so I think that probably had a little impact in sort of my perception of the end, you know, like, oh, that guy's just working everybody to the bone and not giving any you know. And and he wasn't a good He was good people person to the members, but not to his staff. Right, there's there a difference, Right, some people can do And I just think for whatever reason, maybe that was a subconscious sort of gap for me. And now I'm learning a lot.
Well it's sad, you know.
Again, father's a teacher and coach, and my kids have had a variety of coaches. And I think the worst thing that a coach could ever do, you know, as a coach, is is drive somebody away from a game. Like you know, when I coached literally or whatever, it was always like I'm going to coach the worst.
Kid because the best kid's gonna be fine, They're going to figure it out.
The worst kid, I want to keep them in the game or her in the game for as long as I can. And and I think, you know, the best pros or that right, the best pros. And back in the day, you know, if you think about a small town like who who was the center of that town?
It was like a doctor and a lawyer and you know, and probably the you know, chief of police and the high school football coach and kind of the golf pro right because he or she could hit a seven iron and you wanted that magic sauce, right of how does
that work? And by the way, they were surrounded by you know, probably the most influential people in town because of the people that play golf, and so you know, they they were the center of kind of you know, one of the centers of the universe and in these places. And and I think that's been lost because it's become a business, right and like everything else, you kind of everything's transactional now as opposed to a relationship, and and
you know, we need to get back to that. I you know, this is off the subject, but I sort of feel like, you know, gratitude is being replaced with entitlement, right, and and that is really scary because gratitude is what you know, makes societies work, and it's what like creates civilizations, right and while we have cities and and uh, and you know, if we if we lose that and just assume we're entitled to something like I should be able to hit a seven iron, like you know, you got
to you gotta do the sit ups, right, you like, you know you're going to have to figure out how to hissda and that's.
The beauty of the thing.
But anyway, no, I thanks again for all this. I not not on subject, but I just can't help but feel And I know you're in the middle of this whole storm too, but I based on just all that you say and just kind of agents of change and just disruption, and you know, I got to feel like you're out of this fight, right as in terms of Live and the tour, right, I mean, I feel like, why would the PGA of America. My sense is let
it all shake out? But your focus is on your membership, right, Like would that be would that be fair to say like you don't want to? I mean why would I?
Well, look, I think that would be short sighted, right because at the end of the day, I'm for the ecosystem. I'm for all things that are good for golf. If I thought Live was a superior product and they were really delivering something, I might actually embrace it because it would be good for the game. And I don't think
it is right. I think it's getting away, you know, certainly, I think the product that they're putting out and you know, fifty four holes and shock and start like all that can a you know, sort of arguing one way or another. But I don't think it's superior, Like I don't think like that. That's you know, game changing in and of itself. And as I said before, like I've lived in a world of disruption. I believe in disruption. I invite disruption.
I used to run an exercise at the bank where you know, I'd say, okay, let's assume you know, we're going to do an MBO of ourselves, so we're going to own them, Like what would we do differently? How would we make ourselves more efficient? What will we cut out, what will we emphasize? What will we do Because if we don't do that, somebody is going to do it for us, right, some outside influence is going to do that.
So I think, like at the end of the day, you know, Live is strangely a backhanded compliment to the game, right because for the first time ever, it's cool, first time ever, it's big enough that somebody really wants to disrupt it and come in and take advantage of, you know, being a fat and happy game, if you will. And it's not a Christmas of the tour, it's a Christmas of the whole game. And so you know, what does disruption do to runs you over? You make yourself better
and and that's what has to happen. And by the way, you know, Okay, so yeah, day to day, I'm focused on exactly what we talked about, right, like it is the game, but twice, you know, twice a year in the form of the Men's Game, you know, or once every other year, and then you know, in the form of the Ryder Cup and in the PGA Championship, Like you know, we're the center of the universe, right and and those if you think about five waterfront properties, the
four majors in the Ryder Cup, in the Men's game, anyway, we own forty percent of them, right and or not really because we're own half of the Ryder Cup. But
but you understand my point. And so yeah, I care about the ecosystem because my fiduciary responsibility is too is to you know, make take a perpetual institution and put it on a better course, not somehow put it at risk, right and and our you know, we're able to do all that we do for the game because we're looking to have to have assets and you know, the KPMG Women's that Men Senior, like a lot of those things which allow us to do, you know, all these other
amazing things like the PJ Works Championship and where we're trying to endow h P you know, HBCU golf programs around the country because.
We have that platform. Funeral League.
Again, I talked about what I think is the coolest thing in golf and one of the great golf you know, engines in the game for growth, and and so I've got to be thinking about all those things, like how do I protect those assets because without those assets, we're.
Not we're not functional, and we're certainly not perpetual.
And so yeah, we're we're not in there, you know, like Jay every day going hand to hand. But am I, you know, thinking about it, having a lot of conversations, doing everything I can to you know, leave the room better than I found it one hundred percent. And and you know, I've spent an enormous amount of time on it,
and I think I still will. But I'm hopeful in the sense that, you know, if we get this right, and you know, spend a lot of time talking to players and the tigers and the roories of the world and you know, and others and trying to figure it all out so that we can you know, learn from this and make ourselves better rather than you know, get destroyed by it.
Quite a dynamic time. Again. I think we have the right in you. We have someone who's obviously, uh incredibly you know, I've your well positioned to have an incredible impact in so many ways and shapes and forms. So whatever I can do to help you or support you, I I you know, I'm always I'm always in. I'm a I'm a fan and in the man club of your vision and execution and your style. And you know, so it's cool, keep going for God speaking God speak, Well.
It takes takes the village man. But you know, if you if you you know, if you're going to play football, tackle football, you.
Gotta play tackle football like otherwise you're playing in traffic, right and and so get your uniform dirty and and hit and be hit and and this tackle football like the whole you know, this whole. And I don't mean just live, I just mean the whole thing is right. And so if I'm me, I'm all in. I'm not gonna you know, you can't the guy that the guy's afraid to, you know, get hit as the one that's gonna get hurt, right.
Amazing. We'll give my best to Jane and and thanks again for this time, Seth. I really appreciate it. I know, I know you're going a mile million miles, but in a lot of different directions. But thank you for this.
So oh good man. Thanks brother prop a cross Paw assume absolutely look forward to see man. Thank you.
Next up more on the future of club pros.
You know, one thing that Tom Wallace told me is that when you find boards with younger people, you know, the golf club boards with younger people, they get it more. So it's a generational thing a little bit too. And I think that, you know, obviously we all get older and that's going to change with time.
So I think there is hope for sure.
I think it's a hard situation and there's reasons to be pessimistic, there's reasons to be cynical, but I do think there's reasons for hope as well.
And we talked to Brian Soulet, a PGA professional and an assistant teaching professor at Penn State's PGA Golf Management Program.
Fifty five percent of PGA professionals are fifty five years or older. So there's an old school mentality that I think was perpetuated forever in this industry. And I'm hoping that that that the changing of the guard allows for the younger generation of PGA professionals to say, you know what, the way we've always done it isn't right. We need
to change it. And I'm excited for that. I think that that you're seeing some young minds come into the industry that are that are fighting for, you know, for some more balance. I think that's a really good thing.
And episode six is all Susie Whaley, who after one hundred and two years, served as the first female president of the PGA of America. When you're saying all that, are you are you directly referring to women? Are you referring to women in golf? Are you referring to women in golf? Or are you referring to PGA you know, PGA pros. Are you like or is it kind of all of it like you want?
Yes, yes, you just forgot the media. That is the bucket in there too. And again, I look at this, it's not a it's not a it's something that I'm about it's not sending them saying negatively. It's just I think, you know, I think a lot of us are just tired of saying we're grateful for the opportunity, and yeah, that's where women come in. Right, I'm done with hearing about why don't more people watch the LPGA. Well, where are we supposed to watch them? You know, where are they?
Where are we seeing them? I mean, if you look at the paper, I won't if they're in it. If you look in any digital publication, not the paper, that's how we'll dam any digital publication, right, any any Twitter feed? I mean, does anybody know who won the last three LPGA event?
Like?
Honestly, like it's it's actually appalling to me. And I don't think it's necessarily intentional. I just think it's our culture in the game that needs to be changed. When people talk about the game, they talk about the professional men's game.
Right.
When I have conversations with my juniors, I always say, who's your favorite female player?
Right?
My juniors now know that, right, there's so many young girls playing and so many boys now watching women's go. But I don't understand why we're not seeing it more and Why is only five percent of media publications on women's sports in general?
Why is that? That's just a question right.
For people that lookay, that's where I get all the king on Twitter, Like people will write me back a thousand reasons why right, but none of them make any sense, Like that doesn't mean make sense just because you like to watch men's Okay, good, how are you glad to watch men's sports? But I watched men's sports and women sports and some of these different women, like women need to watch women's sports. This isn't all on men, right, we all we all just need to participate in it.
And so I think when you ask me what is that all about? You know, it's about making sure that the next generation has it better than we have. Right, the next generation is that to fight so hard? And I'm here to tell you in golf women have to fight really hard. And there is space for women and there is space for junior girls in golf. We shouldn't have to fight this hard.
Put another log on the fire. Nobody here is to get the time