Need A 4th?! Ep. 2 with Trey Wingo

the greatest athlete they ever saw. I would go to the range and I would try to hit you know, a couple of hundred one irons, and I would try to hit him as high and as hard as I could. Great athletes do leave legacies. We're trying to the one I can share. Not get myself in trouble. Oh my god, this is a dangerous grows here. So I think we can all agree that Echo golf shoes changed the game. When Fred Couples rolled up wearing them without socks. It spoke to their comfort and just sort of that that

effortless cool. But you have an Arnold Palmer story I want to hear. Right. Let let's say, have I ever told you about my last visit with Arnold I saw Arnold. I would like to thank no reporters or Arnold more than I did when he was in his eighties. My last visit with him was in Latrobe, and I drove there wearing these pathetic birken stocks when I got always I'll just wear my shoes when I get there. But when I got there, all I had was my Echo

golf shoes. And Arnold's really formal. And I'm going into his office with my cleaned up Echo golf shoes and almost like checking me out, and He's nodding, and I said, Arnold, what you're looking at my socks and these armoms like, no, I'm looking at your shoes. And then Arnold talked about all the different shoes he wore, and no questioner, Arnold Doug the Echo shoe. I love the Echo show. I know you do too. Uh. It's a great shoe sales resistant.

If it's good enough for Arnold Palmer and Fred Couples, it's good enough for the rest of you. So go to Echo dot com and um, you can find one that fits that you like that people will stare at, like Arnie. So back to need a fourth Hello, This is Alan Schipnuk back for another edition of Need a Fourth The Podcast or Myself, Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger take turns surprising each other with a surprise mystery guest that's actually might be redundant, But anyway, they don't know

who's who's waiting in the waiting room. I do, so I'm gonna gave you guys a couple of hits. Um, Michael, this will interest you. He's not gonna help you. Guess it's so esoteric. But his father founded People magazine, so h came up in the typing trade. Uh. This gentleman is not a professional golfer. He's but he's one of the most enthusiastic avid golfers. I know. If you follow him on social media, and a million people do just on Twitter, you know he's often teeing it up somewhere

fancy or or not so fancy. He's he's a he's a man of the people as well. Um, he can talk about football the way that we can talk about golf. No, okay, Uh. His uh his given name is a mystery to many. Uh, but he has a Roman numeral three at the end of his full name, much like Davis Loved the Third, who many people referred to as Trip not Loud and Wait, not Loud and Wayne Right the third. I don't know him,

but I'd like to. But Jeff does. He's a musician and his and his grandfather did work for chime ink but did not found people magazines. Okay, so it's not it's not Trip, but it's of that genre. It's one of the great names in in in the sports media galaxy. It's one of your buddies from Carmel. Who No, it's not. It's not one of you, but not a Carmel guy. I'm titling lost. All right, I'm gonna put you out of misery. Let's let's bring in from the waiting room

Trey Wingo, Mr Wingo. There, Ah, there he is. Hello, sir, how are you? You're talking to me? I'm talking to you. Yeah, nobody calls me sir. I'm doing great, Alan, are you man? Awesome? I'm so happy you're here. Uh. You know this this is a golfy podcast. We have many people who are deep in the game and and the golf media, and they're they're professional golfers and that sort of stuff. But I think you're one of the most avid amateurs I know, and I thought it'd be fun to get your take

on on many things. Uh, to tell tell the listeners and the co host about your your love for the sport because they may not know how deep it runs in your veins. Here. Yeah, it's pretty pathetically deep, for lack of a better term. I never played a lot when I was a kid, Um, just you know, screwing around here and there. And then I got into a

little bit in my in my twenties. Uh, and uh, I fell in love with golf watching the War at the Shore the nine Ryder Cup, I just thought it was the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. And to this day, Um, honestly, the Ryder Cup is my favorite sporting about of all time. You know, it's only sport, the only event I know where millionaires to play for free, you know, and uh, they played for

the Pride and it's just it's it's awesome. So yeah, I love the game, even though the game doesn't love me back a lot, but I I enjoy I enjoy the adventure of it. Like I think, if I was really good at it, it might not be as enjoyable. I know that sounds crazy, but like the maddening part of it where you can go out and play like you finally figured it out, and then the next time you step on a golf court, it's like you're holding a snow shovel in your hands and not a driver.

And I think that's the part of it that drives

me a little crazy, but it also makes it fun. Well, I think we can all agree probably the baddest mofo who has ever walked the planet is Jim Brown, the former NFL running back, and he once cited his favorite sporting event to be the Wryter Cup for all the reasons you laid out, And so I'm curious as you travel through the NFL universe is golf universe so language, and you find yourself having these these deep discussions with the guys have nothing to do with football, but it's

more about the game you both love, oh absolutely, And you see more and more of these guys picking up golf, especially in the off season. You know, Patrick Mahomes, when he was at Lake Tahoe a year ago, says I'm coming for you, Marty, and I'm like, yeah, you need to relax Marty Fish might be the best non professional golfer I've ever played with in my life. Like Marty is so incredibly good. Like I think if he didn't, if he wasn't going to be a pro tennis player,

he could have been a pro golfer. But yeah, there are there are so many guys in the NFL that are so into golf. It's what they do a lot in the off season. So it is absolutely, like you said, a universal language. You know when when you get a bunch of quarterbacks together, uh after they talk about spirals and all that kind of stuff, that they start doing this and you know they go, what what am I am? My closing too soon? You know, they go, they go

through all the machinations that all of us do. Trey, have you ever played with John smalt spinning chance, because he would be my leader in the in the clubhouse and that exact specific category that you just mentioned, Smallty, like that whole brave staff of the nineties like Steve Avery, Glavin Maddox, they all played golf, but Smaltz was by far the best. My my favorite, my best John Smallt story of all time is when my son was younger,

He's twenty seven now. We used to go down to at disney World every year for his birthday, and I ran into Small at one of those water parks. I can't remember which one. It was, one of those two water parks at disney World. He was there with his kids on vacation, and I was there with my kids taking them down for a birthday celebration, and we were, you know, we're being the dorkey dad's at the water

park at disney Worlds like that, is you right? Yeah, We're just here sort of mess around with the kids. So my summer job when I was in college, I was a cartboy at Pebble Beach Golf Links and not terrible, not terrible. I mean that's why I really learned to play in the game, which is I say, it's like, you know, losing your virginity to Jennifer Lawrence. It's it's all downhill from there. And the head pro said, hey, run up to the driving range and pick some guys up.

I said, I just did a sweet there's nobody there. He's like, just go up there and wait around. I was like, And so all of a sudden, this helicopter touches down and Disgorges, the entire Atlanta Braves pitching staff. They had like a night game up at against the Giants at Cantilestick Park and they all helicopter down. They played pebble and they took off. I thought that was like the most macho thing I've ever seen. Membership has

its privileges. I think is the saying on the American Express card get mass Jeff a question related to this. Every Jeff, you'll see elite athletes like we're speaking of here, um Fish and and Smaltz and uh and others. And Michael Mike Schmidt, the former third basement for the Phillies, I would say, was in this category. John Brody was in this category, John Brody. They look like the real deal until you get to about eighty yards and in,

And I wonder why that is? What why can't a really elite athlete figure out eighty yards and in like you guys can, Well, I look like the real deal to you, I guess um coming in with right away, like right away to you can see. I mean, I've played with Romo a few times. I used to play with Derrick Anderson like the he was a backup. He played in Cleveland for a long time, back up behind um Can Newton and Carolina the great Scapusan. He was

a really really good player. Um, they're so talented. There's such good athletes, especially they're throwing athletes, like you said, the pitchers the baseball as the quarterbacks. Um, they can find the ball from spots where most people couldn't find the ball. You know, they can make something that isn't really that great work. But you can't really short game,

I think is pros. We all grew up around a chipping green, you know, and putting and chipping around the house with plastic balls, and there's such an innate, sort of undescribable feeling to it that you just you can't just be a great athlete and be a good have a good short game. You know, you've I've actually learned the craft. I guess it's like art, or like drawing, or I mean something playing music, playing musical instrument. You

can't just sort of play the right notes. You know, you've got to actually get involved, and I think you've got to do it for a long time. And I think that too. And they're too strong. I mean, they're massive athletes, these guys and they spend the whole time pushing weights as hard as they can and hitting guys as hard as they can. That's not what you do in the short game, right, So, um, I mean they

get there. I mean eventually, when they play a lot, you see them retire from their sport and just focus on golf, and they get better and better and better. But um, shortcame just takes time. I think a good athlete can hit a ball pretty quickly because they're just talented. But short games are as a craft, and you can't just paint by numbers. You've got to learn it well.

I mean. The correlarity to that, Michael, is that if you go to a corn Ferry event or the two America event on the driving range, all these guys look like tour players, and then you go to the practice pudding green and you see all the weird contraptions, the funky strokes, and you know guys are tearing their hair out. So I mean, even even elite golfers who am playing golf the whole life, the story game is the separator, right,

I got a I got a great story. I gotta share their U of a buddy of mine who's a member at Royal Oak in in Dallas, and they had some guy who was trying to make a tour stop there down there all hit on the range and this guy was like striping everything right. He was hitting you know, high fades, low draws, what I mean, everything every shot you could possibly imagine. And this local caddy came up and said, man, you must not be able to put

her chip with a damn. He's like, why do you say that, because because if you did, I'd sure as he'll know who you are. A quick follow up to Jeff's point when he says, you know, they looked to me like they might be pretty good. I was one when year Watson ms the cut. Of course he missed will cut a lot in the last ten or fifteen Masters, but he was on the range on Saturday afternoon because he had a senior event the next week, and he

said it great. And I'm I'm the only person in the stands and Watson is the only person on the practice see, and so when he was done, I said, Tom, it looks pretty good. He said, you think so? I said, yeah, it looked good to me. He said that session sucked. I said, really, I thought it looked good. I said, I thought it looked good. He said, that's because you're

a chop. Wow more high heat. Damn. Uh. I had to tell one more Pebble Beach story, just because it's so funny that the National Hockey League Players Association had some big boondoggle out there and all these dudes rolled up. This is again, this is early nineties, and they it's like nine in the morning, and these guys already been boozing, you could just tell. And so maybe a couple dozen of them ring the first tea and Jeremy Roenick, remember that guy. He was, He was a great hockey player.

And he's on the first and he pulls out his driver and of course, you guys know pebble beats first holds this very short gentle dog leg part four. I mean it's a hybrid or it's a for Jeff, it's probably a three iron or whatever. And he's a guy's driver. The catties like, you know, sir, I I that's too much club. Uh. He's like, well, i'll try. I'll try, and just say I cut the owner, okay. And so he hit one dead straight and it flew the bunker, it flew the tree and almost hit the house, which

is so far up the hill. I never thought it was in play. And all these other hockey guys like literally fell down laughing. It was Pandemony was like, oh, this is gonna be a very sloppy day at Pebble Beach. Well, I'll tell you a great Jeremy ronic story from Pebble Beach. I was playing in a charity tournament there, seven eight years ago. And you know it's a it's a it's a charity event at Pebble Beach. It's gonna be slow anyway, right,

Ronick just decided because he's Jeremy Ronick. Hey, the guys in front of me, I know you guys, let's play as an ates them. So we're behind him. We're now playing behind Jeremy Ronick on Pebble Beach and he's playing and ate them. He was that guy. He was that guy. And I'm sure you said nothing right, Oh I was at I was. I was. I was the host that night and I gave a speech and I may try to point it out, but he was that guy. I

love it, so I be true. You do get to travel around and play a lot of great places, as do Michael and I and obviously Jeff as well, let's let's hear, let's hear your favorites, and we're gonna critique your list and be prepared. Well, alright, this is this is Uh. I gotta come strong here now. Look. I I'm very fortunate to have played a lot of places that I really enjoy, in a lot of great places that a lot of people want to play. But I gotta say, uh, Cabin is about as special as it gets.

Um up there at in in Nova Scotia, Um Cabin Cliffs is Uh, It's just just a remarkable golf course. Uh. It's six six and six six, three, six fours and six fives, which I think is really fun. And almost every hole has his stunning view of the ocean. Almost every hole is so incredibly unique. Cabin and the Links course is great too. It's just a pure Links of course right by the water. But the Cliff's course is more dramatic with the with you know, with sixteen and

seventeen right along the water there. I mean eighteen is as well, but literally sixteens apart three over the gulf, so that would be way up there. Uh. It used to be the challenge at Minnelli now it's called Lenai Golf. That's one of my favorite courses I've ever played. Bill Gates got married on the twelfth green there. Uh, in

a true flex of f you money. He grounded every single private aviation on all of the Hawaiian islands, helicopters, airplanes everywhere around, so nobody could take off and fly over and take pictures of his wedding on the twelfth Green at Minnelli. I mean, that's that's the ultimate financial flex that I could think of. Memo to Bill Gates, we don't care. Nobody really wants those photos of Bill. You're not Tiger Woods at Sandy Lane. Come on, Yeah,

that's true, that's fair. But he did it anyway, Like I just I just respected the flex, like the entire fleet of all. But you'd have to come from Seattle or l A if you wanted to film my uh film my wedding. So I thought that was pretty cool. Just got back from Piner's, played the Dormy Club for the first time, which was really really fun. Uh. That was you know, they just that whole Dormy Now we're starting up and we played the Dormy Club, which is five ten minutes outside of pine Hurst. That was a

really really special experience. Have you played Tobacco Road? I have not. In fact, we were debating, no, let's see the hold on, hold on now, hold on. We were debating whether or not we were gonna go because we we had this one extra day. We were either gonna go to Tobacco Road or the Dormy Club. And so we decided to go to the Dormy Club. And next time, I promise you we will hit Tobacco Road, because that

that was the other option. You chose poorly, But I mean Tobacco Road to be and unfortunately everyone's discovered it and it's become it's become very trendy. But I'm a Mike's trance guy. I wrote a big story about it for for Golf magazine years ago, and that, to me is the wildest golf course ever made by God or man, and I obviolutly love it. It's too polarizing for Michael would probably hate it. But well that's the thing. That's why every you either love Tobacco Road or you hate it.

So Michael, where are you on that one? I haven't been, but I'm sure Alan will get me there before for too long day may ask you a quick question about the gonna need a bigger boat sign behind your head. Now, that, of course is a reference to Jaws, as I know, but it does refer to the movie or is it some other reference for you? No, that's a yeah that we we got an uh Chatham, Massachusetts up in Cape Cod And of course they filmed the They filmed the

movie Jaws off Martha's Vineyard. So yeah, that's absolutely and omag ship Jaws the Movie're Gonna need a pick a boat. That is a deeply accurate comment when you say off Martha's Vineyard, because a lot of it was aquatic. Uh, but many of the scenes were shot in the village of Edgar Town. It's it's it's steered to me because my first newspaper job was on the Vineyard Gazette and Martha's Vineyard. And uh so some of the extras, a lot of the extras in that movie were people that

I knew. Uh. My country doctor was the country doctor in the movie. Sheriff huck Look was in the uh. And there's a wonderful golf course that our recommend to any of you, um, if you can get over there. It's a nine hole. It's a little hard to get onto, but I think Jeff would be able to add know about the other the others of us. Um, it's called

the Eggertown Golf Club. It's a nine holes. It's back to I would think, and uh, really tiny greens and tiny bunkers and big lips, and it moves and it's sandy. It's really a jump those a great level up nine hole golf course. I think it's called Camera what's calling They just it's up in trural mass and uh, it's actually you can play it as a team, but it's just using different teams. But it's a nine holes right across the right next to the National Sea Shore right there. Obviously, Uh,

it's a public course. They don't have the money to keep it up on you. But but the layout is absolutely fantastic. It's got some really great holes right along the National Sea Shore there. You know what's so funny about this conversation is they just re released Jaws on the big screen in three D. And I took my fourteen year old son and three of his buddies on Friday night, and they kind of knew what it was, but they didn't really know. And They were riveted because

it's it's very much a psychological, suspenseful movie. It's not just people getting chewed up spit out like any modern take on the movie would be. And they were super into it. So well, yeah, you didn't see the shark until like sixty seventy minutes into the movie. Great point, Yeah, exactly, Jeff, was Jaws a big movie in Australia? Are you kidding? Jaws was a Tuesday in Australia. That's a day that

ends in Ye. Yeah, we've got some shocks. But you obviously love the movie because you've thought about your studio set up man and you've chosen Jaws as the the main theme to your studio. So well done. Um. Yeah, sharks are It's just part of being in Australian really, Like they're just fish, just giant, enormous fish that will kill you. What Jews did do is it stopped Australian

tourism for a while. I think if the Australian Tourism Board, even though the shock was in the US, everyone and everyone you meet around the world it's like, I'd love to go to Australia, but you've got sharks and snakes and spoties. I don't want to go down there. It's scary. Yeah, but you've got real You've got real Melbourne too, So that's six. I did play. I did play News South Wales a few years ago. That was that's awesome, that

was a special day. But it is funny you say that, ye, because I know somebody that went to Australia recently and said, you're gonna get in the water, like I'm not getting the water their sharks there. I'm like, okay, come on now, Like you know, it's it's not like everybody that jumps in the water in Australia and you know there's a neon signed around their their neck that'sys eat me. You know,

it's not it's not quite that simple. You really have to have some bad luck to be eaten by eaten by a shark, and somewhere in Australia unless you're unless you're your rotten nest Island. Yeah, they're very territorial. Yeah, Western Australia is rough. Um. I mean it's like it would be like getting bitten by a Rattlesnike in Manhattan, Like it just doesn't happen. If you got away, there's no sharks. You do not get bitten by a shot, correct, Jeff.

When I played New South Wales absolutely blew my mind. I thought it was maybe the most spectacular and possibly the hardest golfer has ever played off the tea. I just felt like every hole you're standing there and you had to hit it over a hill and threaded between this and that, and like, I mean, I love the challenge. I wasn't totally up to it, but it was just

I thought, what was absolutely incredible championship. Of course it's not one that gets discussed like Royal Melbourne or Kingston Heath. I mean, what is your feelings about about New South Wales. I think it's incredible. Yeah, it's a minute. It depends on the day you play. I mean you probably played windy days when you were playing there. It's generally windy. Uh,

It's it's incredible. It's a little bit uh fiddly. I think for us, now how far we hit it, there's a couple of holes you've got to sort of take some really weird, crazy lines on because the kind of technology has grown out of it for professionals probably um and we've had some Australian opens and we had one. We had a wind delay and stuff. So there's like sort of logistic issues to that. Um. But it's an

incredible place. When you play the first few holes, you like, this place is pretty good, and you come over the whole either the hill on five and you just see the whole thing in the ocean and all that. It's just like what I've sort of delayed reveal to the day,

you know. And then you hang along the ocean, you go back in and you go back towards the ocean and it's a little bit like pebble, like that delayed reveal when you walk off the fourth team and you sort of get past the structure and all of a sudden it's all there in front of you. It's um. Yeah, in New South Wales is untalked about. I mean Mackenzie went there to he had a bit of an influence there. Um. I don't know. I think the sand Belt just gets the it just gets the credit so much because of

role Melbourne and Kingston, Heathan the supporting cast, I think. Um. And there's that Melbourne Sydney sort of thing which is a bit like uh, New York Boston sort of thing going on that we don't talk about Sydney wear and Melbourne. They're not relevant in the golf since you know, But yeah, New South Wales is fantastic. Another one I played when

I was over there was Hamilton's Island. Now that was a fun golf course, like the only the only thing on the island is the golf course and the pro shop, Like there's nothing else on the it's it's not even on Hamilton Islands. On a separate you take a ferry from Hamilton's Island across this channel to get to the island where the golf courses and like the drive from the seventeenth green to the eight tea, I sweart of got it took ten fifteen minutes in the golf like

there's nothing else on this island. It was. I was like, am I lost it? Am I being punked? It took that long? But it was it was a really interesting layout over there. How many balls did you lose? More than I care to talk about on this podcast. Um,

there's still come over. You catch the boat from Hamilton Island, the main island, and you get a little boat across the golf course and like try says, it's the only it's the only thing on the island and they'll ast you how many balls you've got and if you only have a dozen balls, and like when you better buy a couple more dozen because you're gonna be coming back in mids and more. And there's um under the stories

about four or five or six seven dozen balls. They were coming in after six holes to get more balls. It's like if you missed the faila, you've lost well. And they also have this sign up that says, do not go look for your ball because every poisons thing you can possibly think of exists on this island, So do not go into the weeds. Now humans, lots of snikes trade. Did you get to to King Island? Um? You know it's kind of happay between Melbourne and Tazzi. No,

I didn't. And the one, the one thing that the white whale on my list right now is Terry Eatie. Like I I need to find a way to get to And I know there's a bunch of great golf courses in New Zealand. I understand that, but you know, I've seen a couple of videos of Terry Eadie and it just looks incredible. So I've gotta I've gotta figure out that's that's the next one on the on the checklist.

I've got to find a way to get to terry Etie. Yeah, well, you know it's it's it's only forty five minutes from the Auckland airport, so it's quite accessible once once you get to the New Zealand if you want to get getting to New Zealand. Park's part. That's the hard part. I mean, like from Auckland, it's not a problem. It's the going from the United States to New Zealand does the issue. Yeah, okay, that's the issue. But you shouldn't at this point. You should wait another year two because

they're building two more courses things. And yeah that I said about seven Mile Beach, that's um, that's Mike Clayton production, isn't it, Jeff, Like in Tasmania. Yeah, it's worth fighting probably a year or so because there's a couple more coming along. You can do an unbelievable sort of coastal golf course to it down here. Um, Tarradi is definitely worth it. I feel like there's probably a couple of footballers are members. It's very lots of American members of Tarradi,

so you can find your way in there. But that's the beauty of it. I mean, they say, like they realize how special the place is that if you just get a letter from your club you can go over there and play, because, like I said, you're not gonna get over there very often. So they do allow you to play, but only once, Trey, you can only play once. So like we're sort of kidding ourselves because we went over and played it a couple of years ago and

it was phenomenal. But now these other ones are coming online which will be public, so they're they're but they're the original tart they say is going to be like our Cyprus Point and these next two will be like our Pebble and our spy Glass. So that's super cool. Um, But yeah, I'm not of some members. I'll get you on okay. That's that's a verbal commitment. That's a contract. That is a verbal contract from Jeff Ogilvie and I'm holding him to it. Um. I played North Barron a

few years ago. That was pretty special too. In gold that one man that was a cool golf course. It's top five in my list. Jeff, Let's let's hear yours not to put you on the spot. But you are not only a better golfer than three of us, you are a very refined eye and you actually build golf courses. So I've never asked you what your your favorite courses are. I could probably guess, but let me hear it from you. Um, well you I don't know. Uh. It's so subjective, right,

Like these golf course ranking lists are so ridiculous. Um, there's no such thing as the best golf course. Um No, I didn't say best, I just said favorite, because that's a little I'm just putting some Uh. I don't want anyone to hold me to any lists. This is not a ranking. Um. My favorite place to play in the world. Well, the places that I've had enjoyed my game of golf, the most number one is win Lee Forest UM, just

west of London Um, near Sunningdale. It was Harry Colt who did all those sort of heath land courses in London Um had a lot to do with Pine Valley and he called it in his book his Least Bad Course, which I thought was a cool description, very humble man fantastic place. It's like a mini Pine Valley. It's like really small, it's probably only might not even be six

thousand yards, um, way too small. But to go out with a little half set and a little leather carry bag and walk along with your Cocca Spaniel, it's like just the perfect golf experience for me. Um, that's the red, that's the one off to the side. I think Pine Valley is an incredible golf experience. Um, you go with, you go with your boys, you go stay overnight. It's it's the whole experience of Pine Valley. The course is

really great. I think it's probably not very democratic because I think unless you're a good a really good player, I think you're gonna find it too hard. Um. It's so visually intimidating though. Right like, for example, the second hall of Pine Alley, there's just all the ship on the left side, all the ship on the right side, but the fairways fifty you are to wide. But in your eye all you see is what I can't hit

it here. I can't hit it here. You know. Yeah, it's tough and you're gonna be long, and so that's it's clearly an unbelievable achievement in building a golf course. Um Bine Valley, and it's amazing. Look, I mean Shinnacock National. The whole sort of Southampton area is incredible. UM. Carmel obviously, Cyprus. Cyprus is one of my favorites. UM. I love golf in the Carolinas in general, at the pontost area. There's

so many good golf courses around there, But the Old Course. Probably, if you get me one course to play for the rest of my life, it would have to be the Old Course. I just think it's better every time I play it, even though I've played it fifty or sixty times. Probably, Um, it's why golf is a sport. Like North Barracks along there with it, um, Press Wicks along there with it. But I think the Old Course, if you just look at it from every single angle where. We talked about

it around the Open and stuff a lot. But it's why the sport is the sport, and it's why it's such a so great, such a great sport, and it's been so enduring. I think if it, if it's started a different way, UM, Gulf would look very different. But it was that whole thing. If if you just change the direction of something right at the beginning, it makes a big difference at the end got the Sandrew's pointed as often a pretty good direction, and I just love

the town. And ah, you could live there to us three months a year and just play there every morning, you'd be pretty happy. What what do you about Kingsbarnshi out of curiosity, it's a it's a it's Kingsparn's is great. I think it was um a hundred years old. People would probably give it a bit more respect, you know, but it feels like it's been around for a hundred

and fifty years. I mean that when you walk on that golf course and you say it was open in two thousand, it's hard to believe it really is, because usually the new links just leave you like, you know, like it's just a bit they're trying a bit too hard. Um Kingsmarns. Yeah, they nailed it there. That's really cool. It's really cool property the way I kind of like the two loop, so you go out and back, then out and back um club bass in the middle. Yeah,

it's stunning viewers, incredible up on the hill. Quite a dramatic land for links. Yeah, kings Bontin is really really cool for a new one. Note that I'm not asking Michael for his list of favorite golf courses because they'd be all these esoteric munis that none of us ever heard of, So we don't even need to go down the out courses off on his list. Yeah, I think they'll of course stup on his list too, But that's all that is a UNI course in fairness. But yeah,

what it is, the MUNI course in fairness. And I appreciate your your insight and it's it's an accurate one. But also I refused to participate in the discussion when there's any of the panelists referred to h s Henry Cole as Harry, they're already in such a lead beyond me. I didn't even know. I didn't even know a living person could call. So that's totally fair. Um, you know trade.

One thing I was thinking about when looking looking forward to this conversation is, as you know, this is a time of great upheaval in the professional golf landscape and apparel like it's made a lot is between the USFL. It's it's uh, it's founding and trying to trying to

siphon away talent from the NFL. I need to read Jeff Perlman's book and do a little more research on the whole topic, But what is your take on on that era as as as a scholar of football, What can we what can we learn from the demise of the USFL, And how can you extrapolate all this too to live golf in the PGA tour well without getting too political. Donald Trump was involved in both of them, so you know, you know Trump. Trump's big move with the USFL was let's go up against them in the fall,

and it turned out to be an absolute disaster. They won the lawsuit for a dollar. You know, congratulations, you won three bucks because it was an anti lawsuit and you got a trouble and so big win huge um. Look, no, no,

it's pronounced huge huge you w uh. Here's look, if you want to go play in the Lift Tour, fine, if you want to enjoy it, fine, But like I guess I would say, I don't think it had to be this way, Like I've never understood the tours sort of going to the mattresses mantra here right, Like to me,

uneasy piece is always better than all out war. And you know, Jamnahan and everybody tried to shame people into staying and that didn't work, and then they tried to penalize people for leaving that didn't work and for all the stuff that you know, as you well know, Alan Phil got in trouble for. You know, it's amazing that when this Lives Tour started happening, a lot of things that a lot of players wanted to change ontour miraculously happened.

You know. It's like, well we found eighty million dollars. We don't know where this was from, and hey, let's do this and do that. So whether or not you like or don't like the Lip Tour, that's fine, that's your perspective. But I think it did force the PGA Tour to change, and I don't think that's gonna be a bad thing. Yeah, that's interesting. Well I appreciate you know, you we're all in our little bubbles and echo chambers, so you just speak for a kind of a hardcore

golf fans that that's an interesting perspective. But what is the legacy the uf USFL? Did it? Did it change football in any way? No? Now, the NFL squashed it. I mean there were there weren't There weren't any innovations, you know, there weren't any there weren't things that. It was just another opportunity for places people to go. And like, you know, great great players like Reggie White started out in the USFL. Steve Young, my high school quarterbacks, started

out in the USFL. Like when he got a forty million dollar contract, uh you know uh in nineteen eighty three, that was unheard of. Of course Steve would always say yeah, but it was paid out over forty years, you know, and he never saw any of that money. Um. I guess the difference there is on the live tour. It's all up front, right, They're they're throwing it all up front. I do find it interesting too that whenever it lived, golf is marketing this stuff and they put stuff out

on social media. It's almost never about the golf. It's about a party. It's about look at this great food, you know, it's about I don't quite understand that if you're trying to draw me in with a golf, why are you putting everything on social media about lobster tails and champagne. That's the part I can't quite figure out. Trade the way sport, the direction, the way sports broadcasting

is going. Is it possible that you could have a sports league, a very narrow sports league like Live Golf, and have it be successful only as a YouTube channel. And I say that having actually watched some of I shouldn't use the word actually, but having watched some of the broadcast yesterday of the of the Boston event, and

it was good. I was surprised how good it was. Well, listen, it's it's it is good, right, I mean, And I think one of the things that we like about it is the thing that that it speaks to what you're just talking about. There are no commercials. It's constant action. If they do get a television network deal, which I think they will, um, that will change, you know, like everybody is up in arms about the playing through stuff. Uh you know when we go through on the Golf

channel on NBC. Well, it's just constant action on the Lift Tour. And one of the reasons it's constant action is because they don't have to throw at any commercials. And remember, you know, people like, well, how can this survive as a business entity. That's not the point. I mean, they're not trying to build a successful business. They're trying to establish a brand, and they have unlimited funds in which to do so so you know, like, can it

sustain this way? Yeah, they can sustain it as long as they freaking want to because they have more money than they know what to do with. Um. There they are parts of the live thing that I don't have. Yeah, I think are fun, like the I like the idea of the shotguns are you look, especially the Scottish Open this year. The difference I think in the in the early to late and late to early window for the first couple of days was a dramatic difference in scoring.

So that part I understand. I think a lot of players like the team concept part of it. Um. I know Pat Perez does, uh, you know who's out there shot and makes a ton of money. Um. So that there are parts of it I think that are interesting and and are are are fascinating to watch, you know. And that what that t GL thing, that that that the PGA Tour is gonna do, that's basically top golf.

Alan We're gonna Allen, We're gonna have to have a golf off between Trey and Uh and in Jeff and Uh because these two guys know we're golf than you would die and Jeff together, not Jeff ogilvie um part of me. I'm just having a moment here. Jeff. The former legal analysts Jeff two, Jeff two are Jeffrey, Jeff Trey. We had Jeff Tubanan recently. I'm sure you know the name. You may not know, but he is also really really passionate golf fan and follows it as c place you do.

The fact that you know about the weather shift of the Scottish Open actually freaks me out, but that's a well, it's a true thing though. I mean, like you know, especially in the Open, and Jeff Will attested this, where you are on the weather draw half the time makes up whether or you're gonna be around on the top of the leaderboard. Absolutely, you know, I mean, don't that what's great about it? Yes, you're right, you're a hunter.

Like Sergio used to complain about that all the time, you know, Like I remember the two thousands of the US Open at Bethpage when it was raining so hard, and Sergio actually said, well it was Tiger out there, they would have stopped it. And I was like, all right, just waggle some more and move on, you know what I mean. That's when he that's when he couldn't pull the trigger. You know, he's just doing this a hundred fifty times, and the folks at Bethpage we're getting on him.

So uh there, Look, the Live Tour isn't going away like I think we can all agree on that. It's not going anywhere. So the question is do you want to be in a constant battle with it or you want to try and find a way to make it all work together. Jeff, I'm curious of you. You're such a purist. Do you love everything about golf? But would you would you grumble about the draw at the Open sometimes? Or is that is that is the time never got a good draw? That's part of it. It's part of

the Open, It's part of what it charms. But it doesn't have to happen forty times a year. It's a room for different stuff, right. I think there's an opportunity to make the big tournaments bigger by having a little bit of silliness softer decide. I mean, not that lives silly, but it's different. Um, the shotgun starts great, like Trey says,

when it's ont of network. It might be different with the ads, but the shotguns start combined with the team thing, Like you see more golf in an hour and a live broadcast, and you're doing three hours on a normal to a broadcast, just shot after shot after shot after shot after shot. Because there's not only interest in the winners. I mean, yesterday was, UM, Boston was. There's a lot of guys in it, and there's not always gonna be a lot of guys in it coming down a stretch,

but there's, um, the team thing. And the team thing is so volatile. It's so much more interesting than a stroke play event when a guy's six in front or five in front and nothing happens for the last four hours and you can come in and out every half an hour and just check that he's still four in front. Um, the volatility of that team thing is really cool. Um, I'd go harder on the team team, and I would drift away from individual golf a little bit and go

harder on the team thing. I think, Um, there's plenty of room in fifty two weeks a year to have both, you know, UM, and I think the team thing it's got something going for it. I mean, I don't know if the way it's being played will get people will be buying jerseys and merchandise and like saying I'm of all about this team or that team or DJ's team is gonna win this week and all that. But I think if you if they pushed that a little bit harder, I think, Um, I think the team thing's got a

lot of merit. I mean, look the best too, or at least the two of the most interesting tournaments and go for the Ryder Cup and the President's Cup. Um, like trade started at the start, It's like, there's no reason you couldn't have a professional league match player. I mean, let's bring match play back a little bit. I mean, I just think there's room for both. UM and I think what we don't need forty weeks a year with the same thing. I think if you actually had less

of that, they would actually be more important. You know that the real golf isn't going to go win the Open with the weird drawer and the twelve hour gap between first and last daytime. And that's like Cam Smith to pick a live flare. Um, that's just the pinnacle of golf. But you don't need to try to match the pinnacle of golf every week because that's sort of undermanding the pinnacle of golf. You know, I need there's

room for everything. Well, and the team aspect can be even more compelling is that they're they're already sort of unofficially grouping guys by nationality. So if you have an Aussie team that's camp Smith and Mark Leishman and you know a couple other guys. Um, I think people in Australia are gonna be more. They're gonna care about a little bit more and the silly names and stuff fall by the wayside. If if they're were, if they've got it as there are some weird there are some weird names.

Let's just be understand. There are some weird names. There are some weird This is like the beta test. I mean, next year the teams are gonna look, it's gonna be very different, different names, different branding, because they're gonna be much more baked in and it will be for the whole year. Whereas they keep adding and subtracting parts this year, so it's all been a little wonky, but it'll be.

It'll be much more baked out next year. And without question it's gonna be You're gonna have a South African team and Australian team. You can have a Latin American team, um, you know, go on down the list, and I think they'll probably an all English team, you know. I think that will just generate. It becomes essentially like the World Cup right in some ways, and I think that becomes

a natural South African team. I mean there's that. You can already see how it's getting organized, and I think that will that will drive interest a little bit more because uh, you know, there's there's tons of fans out there. They've they've been cheering for Mark Leashman and Cal Smith forever and I think they'll they'll probably be okay transfer in their allegiance more than they would if it was

just an individualistic kind of pursuit. I mean, that would both help pach O, that wouldn't I if if the two of Mike and find us and then Live creates a different product to what I mean. They have a great tour season and then they go across to their team and it's like, well, we're excited because he had such a great season, Like it's got going to be in our team this year and stuff. I think Trade says they've gotta work together because they're not going anywhere.

They're going anywhere. They're not going anywhere, and why why not take advantage? I mean, there's there's a there's advantages for both sides to sort of embrace the other side. Jeff, when you speak of that kind of scenario, do you envision of thirty weeks of pg A tour and then fifteen weeks of live or UM with the two intermingled, or have one rent and then go to the other tour. How would that play out in your mind? I don't know. That's for smarter people than me. Um, who's smarter than you?

Come on? I don't know, Um, I just know there's room for both. I know forty weeks a year of sending me to a whole stroke players boring, Um, like it's just too much. The ratings are all full, No one really, I mean the tournament doesn't get interesting if it does get interesting until about an hour ago. Um, there's rude. I don't know how it fits into the landscape that may just need to stay where they are.

I think that that's sort of from a US sense, playing outside of football season makes the most sense, um. And then I think the live the live sort of the team concept would be better if it was all back to back to back or all in one point of the year. I would think, Um, I think, I mean, I'd love to see you the BG to have played January too, the start of football at the end of August or something, and then everybody I just have had it, just come up with stuff that's fun, you know. Yeah,

you're right. Used to start a couple and then end in in September, and then we had the silly season, right, That's the way it used to be. And I think they're going back to that a little bit. They're still gonna be those crossover uh PG twour starter events for ack of a better term, in the fall, but I think we're gonna see that return to the calendar year season. I never understood the crossover season anyway. I was trying to figure out why they thought that was a good idea.

The wraparound sometimes the reach around, but that's a different that's a different dynamic really, So that's a different podcastcast. So before we let we let you go trade, give give us a couple of your favorite NFL stories. Obviously, there's there's so many football fans for a listening here that they'd love to ask you, you know, the proverbial, Oh you're the bar they wander up to trade. Tell us what great NFL story from from the from your

years on on the beat, Any favorite ones? Yeah, there's a million of them. I mean, like I'm trying to think of the when I put you on the spot here. No, it's all it's good. I think the one I can share not get myself in trouble. You can share that one lack of better term, you know, Like there's a

there's a million different things that go on. Like like, for example, one of the reasons I started the Half Forgotten History podcast is because of what we're talking about here right, Like there's a million stories that we talk about, whether we were at a Super Bowl week together or just in the green room that never made it on

the air. And like for for the Temple, I'll give you there some Super Bowl forty one, Peyton Manning finally beats Tom Brady in the a f C Championship Game and he knows his legacy is never going to be complete until he wins a Super Bowl. So this is pre married Peyton Mary. He's just he's he's football. He's all football, all the time. So the Cults are finally going to their first Super Bowl into the Peyton Manning era, and they have a big team meeting before they head

down from Indianapolis to Miami for the week. And you know, everybody's there. The players are there, the families are there, the kids are there, everybody's it's a big communal thing. And Peyton gets up there in front of everybody, in front of the players, their wives, their children, says, look, this is a freaking business trip. I don't want to have any kids running around of the hall. We go. We're gonna win the damn game. I'm gonna be distracted

by anything. And Jeff Saturday, who is his center and is his best friend on the team, his wife is holding his hand and crushing his hand as he's listening to Peyton say all this stuff, and Jeff's eyes get like this big and he's like, dude, what are you doing. So after that whole meeting, Jeff went up to Peyton and said, you need to chill the f out or

we're going to kill you. He almost he almost had a mutiny on his hands from his own teammates because it was so intensible what had to happen it didn't have to happen at the Super Bowl. It's like, I don't want to kids on my floor and I'm gonna be stragged. Don't want to hear you that. Of course, now he's, you know, with the Father of the Year. He's going to all his kids flag football games and all this kind of stuff. But it was no part

of his background whatsoever. They had to take him off the ledge before they got down there, and they finally won the game seventeen. He was the m v P in Peyton's legacy was secure, but he almost lost the team before the even got to Miami. I love that. Actually have a funny painting story when when he went to the Broncos I was sent out by Sports Illustrated to write a story about it for his first game. It turned out to be a cover story, and the

poor you know, Broncos PR guy was overwhelmed by Roatrick. Yes, Patrick, you're right. He said to me, you're not gonna get any time with Peyton. I'm telling you right now, he's not doing anyone on ones. It's a crazy week. I said, Okay, I understand. So I was just kind of hanging out and partaking in the scrums, but on one of them. And I almost never wear logos on my clothes up kind of anti logo. But uh, I had a Pebble Beach pullover and he looked at it and he said, uh,

you've ever played Pebble Beach. I said yeah, I worked there for three summers actually, and he's like, do you know so? And so he said, you know r J Harper. I said yeah, he was the guy wh hired me. He was the head bro. And we had we had this little moment and then so after the game, Um, I just waited it out and he was getting hustled out of there and he's like, hey, Pebble. I was like, hey, can ask you all good questions? And he's like, yeah,

of course. And we student We talked for like seven minutes, which is a long time really, and and yeah, poor Patrick, I mean he was given me the stink guy the entire time, Like I've rarely had daggers thrown at me that way. And but those seven minutes made my whole story, and it was all because of you know, the Pebble Beach conct Peyton. He's got buddies out here. I think he might be one of the investors of the company,

certainly an investor in Sweden's Cove, like he loves golf. So, as we were saying at the top, it is a universal language. And that was like a crucial, little little uh exchange by any means necessary, Alan, by any means, And it was honestly an accident. Did you ever try the technic again? Do you ever put the pebble beach thing on the morning on nay talking today, I'm gonna put yeah, And it did take me any of our tigers. Strangely, this isn't gonna top your painting story, but it's in

the It's in the same vein. Um I was writing about Nicholas and uh and Nicholas was playing in the jamboree, the remember event at at Augusta, and his partner was a new member, Peyton Manning. And uh so then you know Payton's And then as you said, Peyton's investor in Sweden's Cove. So I mentioned Peyton Manning. So Payton Manning has worked in my stories various times. And uh so, Paytons he has made Augusta. And you know because one of these he says, I've noticed every time you you

write my name it goes like this. Peyton Manning Comma a member of Augustina National. Comma. He says, I'm gonna make you a deal. I'm going to give you an interview whenever you want, if you agree to Sometimes not right, Peyton Manning Comma, a member of Augustin National. And I don't consider I don't consider this story of violation of the terms of the deal because it's verbal and not really. I mean, it's cool that he's reading the stories like you gotta love that because he's a great guy. No,

he really is. And uh yeah, he loves the game. He loves the game. Some of you might be listening to this podcast. There's our colleague matched It Did It Didn't a really fun two part podcast about the mother of all of golf buddies trips around the Open Championship at St. Andrews that Peyton and his brothers are part of. And it's a great listen. I would encourage you to check it out. It'll give you a lot insight into Peyton and his whole crew and um but anyway that

what else do you have trade? Give us one more and then you're out of here. Oh you put me on the spot. Um, I know what you like? Pressure, I do, I do? I do? Uh kind of think? Um, all right, like this is sort of off the beaten path. But it's Super Bowl forty two. The Patriots are trying to beat the trying to you know, trying to pull

off the perfect season. They end up losing to the Giants. Well, if you do postgame in a Super Bowl, like halfway through the fourth quarter, and I was doing postgame that year, they heard you all down to go down on the field, you know, in one wave at a time altogether, but you can't watch the game. So I am now traveling to go watch the end of the game to find out what happens. And I can't see the game. So I called my friend Mark Shlaira who I still work

with on a lot of platforms. Now. I said, Mark, you've gotta walk me through what's happening in the fourth quarter. This is the drive or you know, Eli leads into the game winning touchdown with like thirty seven seconds to play. So I'm like, what's happening? Well, okay, uh, Giants had the ball and it looks like you're in a three man over protection schame. I'm like, Mark, because Mark's former offensive was like, shut up, I don't want to tell

about the blocking scheme. Look at the ball, follow the ball and tell me what happens to go. Okay, guy Eli drops back, almost get sacked, completion over the middle, first down. Great. And then I'm like Mark inside the stadium. Now I can see everything. It's great. So I I see Plexico Burrows catch the game when a touchdown. Bass excuse me? So I go and Beline to run talk

to him. And I realized I'm the only guy around Plexico Burrows and there's a million people, Yeah, around this guy David Tyree They're like, lose my voice here, David Tyrese, a special teams player, Like why are you talking to him? The play where Mark said Eli runs around voice a sack that was the helmet catch and he never said he never said he caught it with his helm. He's

the first down. Like, dude, you're the worst analyst ever, Like you're really good at watching the game, but don't ever ever do play by play because you just screwed me out of the biggest interview I ever could have needed for Plexica. I don't think that interview ever saw air. Never I was the only one. All Why am I the only one talking to the guy that got the touchdown to beat the Patriots. There's a million guys around that scrub David Tyree. That's awesome. I love it well, Tredy,

thank you for doing this. It's absolute pleasure. Yeah, Worries man, I love to Uh. It's great to connect with like the hardcore golf fan. It's it's a it's a tremendous perspective. I could. I couldn't quit the game if I tried, and I tried. I think we all have at some point, probably not Michael, but me and me and Jeff perhaps. Um, every day I quit and then every day you start over. That's awesome. All right, Well, um, hit the little red button there, Trey. We're gonna we're gonna do a little

Monday morning quarterbacking on your on your performance. So that's something you can look forward to at the end of the podcast. Oh yeah, I'll really look forward to that. I just want you to know. I'll be really excited about that. I can't wait. All right, guys, it was, it was. It was great fun. Thank you, Take it easy, Jeff. Always a pleasure man. Good to see man. You know as you were saying Michael's it's amazing how carefully some of the quote unquote fans followed the sport that Scotti

show my name was freaky. Yeah, but his his insights are really really good. He knows golf and he knows sport. Jeff, did you follow NFL football closely in your American years? Yeah? When I arrived, I didn't get it, and then uh, it just you can't avoid it. I've worked out pretty early on if I want to talk to any of my peers between about the first of August and February, better better than how to talk about football, and I'm let's talk about anything else. Um. So I started watching it.

I loved it. I mean, yeah, I ended up. I mean, college pros the whole thing. Loved it. Played with a bunch of football is lucky enough. I mean, Larry Fitzgerald might be the most enthusiastic golfer in America. Um, good, great scotstal Phoenix guy. He was always around. As I said, I used to play with d A a lot, Um play with Romo a bit. I mean they're fantastic, just just it's just outrageous athletes. I mean, we talk about some athletes and those football is are just done a

whole another stratosphere. They're not built normal and just to be around guys like that, I think it's really cool. Um so talented. I mean most people take a lifetime to learn how to hit what they're working out in about a week, you know. Um pretty cool. So yeah, and it's such a perfect isn't it a perfect TV sport? I mean, we talked about golf and I said, it's incredible. In the Last Sunday the Masters are write a carp or there's some moments in normal tournaments that are compelling viewing.

But I mean an NFL game has you captured from the first minute till the end, and it gives you plenty of time to go to the toilet, plenty of time to get to be get a snack. It's just like the perfect TV product, right, I mean, it's just so well put together. Um, you can't help but like it. I think if you watch a few games, you're just gonna help. But like it because it's just such a

good that's a good product. Well that there's that George Will line about football says it combines two of the worst elements of American life violence followed by committee meetings. But you know, the the huddles in between the plays,

it's a little bit. It's a kid to me to like walking between shots, right, There's so there's this little build up, you know, it's these thirty second build ups between every play, and it's just enough time to think about what might happen, and the announcers are they're speculating, and you're getting replays and if it was longer, it would be too long, and if it's shorter, they wouldn't be the same anticipation. So somehow it works even though there's essence a lot of dead time. But that's just

part of the viewing experience, I guess. But you said you said you had to you had to get into football. But what about hunting and fishing that what would that have provided plenty of fodder for your tour conversations? Well, yeah, I mean I I used to fish a little bit growing up in Melbourne, but fishing, I mean I locked fishing. Whenever it's presented to me, I have a good time, but it's usually about who you're with and what's in the cooler. I think more often, Um, hunting, No, that's

not my deal. I mean, um, it's less. I think it's less. Hunting and fishing used to be. There's a sort of a section of the locker room on tour that's hunters and fishes. But football is universal, you know, um football and golfing universal. So yeah, fishing a little bit now, hunting certainly football. Oh that was good. That's strong golf course architecture conversations. Yeah, I'm sure that's true, Jeff. At web point and you're developing sophistication, did you start

calling Colt Harry? It's always been Harry Carlton. No, I didn't know that. Henry s Cole was how I know, And um, that's cool. One of my great friends, Kevin Price, we've been we've been thinking about in an England trip for a long time and it's incredible how many, how many great courses are in that heath land around London and then get down to the coast. I mean, everyone talks about Scotland and Ireland, but pound for Pouder might be more great golf courses in England than either of

the other two. Jeff, if you ever played a Royal sports I've played roles sing ports. Yeah, I mean England is great. Um the links I think. I mean, if you're going to just play pure coastal courses, you probably go to Scotland, um. But the heath land courses in the inland courses in England might be some of the best. Um fantastic. I mean the coaster ones are great too, don't get me wrong. I mean sing Ports is great, Bird is great. I mean this goes on in that

area down there, singing Ports. You've got Rye and Hastings and um st George's fantastic little pockets um of golf. But I love that that sort of heathland golf, Surry West of London, Sunningdale, the Barkshires, Winley Forests and George's Hill. I mean these places are as good as golf. That there is pleasant and experience as golf can provide, just incredible. I love it all Right. Well, we're gonna bring this Need a Fourth to a close. Uh. It's always it's

always good fun. You never know who's gonna wind up on this podcast. We will be um back at it again. Thanks as always for listening and more surprises. A wait, I'm Alan Schipnuk. That's Jeff Ogilvie and Michael Bamberger. This is need a fourth, This is the end. Thanks