Fire Drill 20: Final Thoughts on the First LIV Event

Fire Drill podcast. I'm Machine Ellen. I'm joined by Alan Schipnuk in London who's just covered the first inaugural live event, Michael Bamberger, Ryan French of Monday q Info Mac Barnhart has joined us and guys excited to you know, break this all down. Before we get going, I want to thank some of our sponsors who helped make all of this possible. Part Points Brandon Ebert and Kevin Quinley obviously have created the revolutionary app and an alternative to how

we score the game of golf. Can't thank them enough for their support. I suggest downloading the Part Points app today. Go make par It's a lot of fun, especially for families, beginners, and Buddy's trips. We are looking for an alternative way of scoring a format. Dormy Workshop have helped us put our logo on some incredible new merchandise that we're dropping next week US Open Week that we're very excited about

and we're pretty sure that you will be too. And then bag Boy, who makes the what I believe to be the best push cart out there in the business, and I don't think they have any competition. I can't thank all of them enough for their support of what we're doing here and what we're doing here today is is most notably checking in with Alan as this live event is in the books, Alan and looking forward to

hearing your your sort of wrap up thoughts. Yeah, well, I wrote this in my story that's going to post very soon on fire but Collected dot com. It's like this is the age of cognitive dissonance, right like this, this whole experience being here on the ground stirred up a lot of competing emotions. Like on one hand, it's impressive what what live is built in a very short amount of time. I mean, it's a very well run

tournament and all the trappings were really well done. Um. But then you know, his excellency so and so gets on the mic at the presentation and it's just get a little chill like, oh, yeah, these are the guys you know, and um, so you can't divorce yourself from where the money came from. Um. But then there there's some you know, some interesting stories like you know, Peter you line finishes fourth, makes over a million dollars. That's seven times what he's made on the PGA Tour this

year in fifteen starts. And he's a guy who spent a decade trying to really find a home, Like maybe he's finally found one. Maybe he can be the player we thought he was going to be. Strangely, you know, Live will be a place where he can he can work it out and then transfer into the majors. But then, even as the competition is going on and and you know, Charles Schwartzel's getting his first win in six years, that gets overshadowed by the news break that Patrick Read and

Pat Perez have now joined Live. Follows the announcement yesterday that Bryson's officially coming aboard, there's rumors all over Twitter that Coke Rack and Harold Varner the next, and so that it just keeps growing and evolving, and you know, Live is now accumulated this this critical mass of legit players. You know, you got Hall of famers and Phil and Dustin will be one day you half a dozen major championshipinners like Schwartzel. We've got some big personalities like Poulter,

uh and Perez and others. But getting these these the coke Racks of the world is significant because they're gonna elbow out of the fields and these guys never heard of, which kind of hurt the credibility of the tournament. And they also they have pretty legit spots in the world ranking, and this is that's one of the biggest istues that now faces LIVE is can they be granted world ranking points so that will allow their players to keep competing in the majors. And if that happens, the PGA Tour

has no leverage over these guys. I mean, so the more players they get, the harder they are to ignore. And they're clearly gonna keep getting more players. So it was a momentous week for professional golf, and um it was also kind of a complicated viewing experience with those us were here, Michael Bamberger, your thoughts, well, I, you know, Alan was there. Were so fortunate to have had Alan there and to have his insights. Alan's covered a lot

of tournament golf over you know, a quarter century or more. Um, we know what it's like to be Sunday in this case, not Sunday, but the last round of a tournament. Did we get wrapped up in the shot making like all the other stories go aside and we you know, we care about how the thing's gonna play out. Did you feel that on any emotional level today where you actually cared about the tournament itself. Yeah, Because I've always been

a Schwartzel fan. You know, when he won the Masters in two thousand eleven, that's one of the greatest Sundays ever at a guy National. And a year later I did this this this recreation, this forensic recreation of that

whole day. So I've always cared about him on more than most and he's just been lost in the wilderness with injuries and putting problems, and so he was trying to win for the first time anywhere in the world in six years, and he had a he had a five shot lead at the turn, and then he started making really bad swings and the lead got down to two and he was really struggling, and for little bit it was compelling to watch, like this is a proud champion,

a guy who's trying to restart his career and throw out the money and all that. Like this is the guy who did not want to cough up a five shot lead on the back nine. It would have been devastating. And he was playing with this kid from South Africa who you know, heny new classes who uh they were they were the same group, and so there was that energy and so yeah, it actually felt like a golf

toment for a while. And you know, Schwartz got it in the barn and that um, he's he's a great, you know, champion for them and the guys won of Masters and he's played all around the world and he's very classy, well spoken individuals. So um, for most of the week, all the off the course stuff completely dominated the actual golf. It has been like sideshow after sideshow, but there was about an hour and a half where

there was some compelling golf to watch. Speaking of sideshows, we probably shouldn't go any further without sort of addressing the idea that after you got removed from Phil's press conference, you know, you went back, you wrote your game shot, you went back the next day. You obviously had been credentialed. Was there any other sort of follow up or were you escorted out? Did you ever get a chance to

ask phill a question what you know? Did you ever have a chance to go face to face with Greg Norman? What's kind of the wrap up to all you know to that side show? Yeah, no, it was disappointing. When I was walking in the next day, Norman was sort of coming at me with his press person and somebody else and his his PR Wooman says, Hi Allen. I was like, Hi, Jane high Greg. But Norman didn't even look He's just like stared straight ahead like and I mean, I would have loved to have wrapped it out with

him like what happened? And but you know that was really he's And then so then yeah, I went I just did my job and I had no hassles. But the challenge for reporters of covering this tournament is all forty eight players finished at the same time, and they're coming in from every direction and getting disgorged out these calves in different places, and um to try and manage that chaos, they really want all the interviews to happen in this confined like flash area. Um, you know, I'm

not one to totally always follow the rules. So I was looking for Phil just because I want to be like, dude, can we have like one quick moment like human human like can be piste off? I don't care, but like, why don't just get it out of the way at some point we have to have some interaction. But I never saw him. I don't know where they dropped them off, but it wasn't kind of the spot with a lot of other players and the same thing today. I mean it was, Um, I went out watch him play a

couple of holes. You know, they didn't give me inside the ropes Landard like every other reporter had, Like I think that was one one that was one little subtle way They're trying to keep me away from Phil. So whatever. So it didn't happen on the golf course, and they never brought him in again, And they didn't bring Norman in for a press conference, which was crazy because like this was his victory lap. I mean he did it for all the missteps whatever, like they launched this thing

and by any real metric it was a success. He would the Greg Norman was dying to come in and beat his chest, you know that. But I guess people have just said, like Greg, we gotta put you in the cooler here. So so no, no Norman, no Michelson. It's kind of the whole thing pizzled out. Was actually fine us happy to just have things be mellow. But so now, of course I'm gonna go at Feels press conference on Monday in Brookline and I want to ask

them a question. I want to ask him for a while, Like, you know, if they just let me do it in London when nobody was around and nobody really cared, it would have taken all the starch out of it. But now it's gonna be like this whole fucking thing again.

So uh so, yeah, there's there's no real resolution, but whatever, Mac Barnhart, you you are, along with Michael Sims and Colton Ller, will be continue with the podcast we're gonna call the Real Game and uh and it's for the perspective of of a player manager, a guy who has been in the trenches from a business side of all of this, working with players to advance their business. I think your perspective has been critical and I'm looking forward

to hearing it today as well. What are your thoughts? Uh, you know, we talked about a lot about this. I mean, as Michael said, the toughest thing is getting past you know, the money, where the money comes from, and and that's you know that takes it gives us a lot of palls. Um. You know, but I don't know. You know, this sounds like I'm gonna justify, but I don't know how deep

we can go about money. I mean, I know that Alan Stamford had money with the tour for a long time and it was a it was a total sham. I mean he was staling money, and UM, if we can you know, I just have to get past that, Okay, I just I can't do anything about where the money came from. Um, the opportunity. You know, I had a client, Andy Ogletree play didn't play great, hadn't played in a few months, which is kind of the point. He got

suspended from the PGA tour. He got a letter m Thursday after he played saying he's suspended and funny thing is he hasn't played in a corn ferry event this year, and so he's been he hadn't had enough competition. And what made it more remarkable is this week the corn Ferry event in Green Bull didn't have a money qualifier, so Andy had no way of getting in the outside of a sponsor exemption to play. So he had nowhere

to play. Um. He played the week before in an International Series event which is owned by the Asian Tour, and the tour released him to play in that same money, same people. So that's the kind of crazy thing. Um. But from from players standpoint, you know, I got. I had a player on tour that he did not accept. He did not accept an offer to play, and he texts me says, so all those guys in front of me just got So I just moved up seven spots

on the FedEx list. So every shot makes somebody happy. Um. So you know, anytime there's an opportunity for a golfer to play no one. You know, the tour has always been to place. I've said it long before. They've done a great job, great product. Um. I don't have any problem up top. My problem still goes to have they created enough opportunities for people to come along. There's a lot more competitive golfers than there worked thirty years ago

when they had the Hogan Tour when it first came out. Um, Andy, you know Andy didn't play well. Um, super super rusty as he said. Um. But you know, I look at it from the standpoint of I hate that, you know, I keep asking the question if this is Warren Buffett's money, where Jeff Bezos money, what would the question be. It's a it's a new format. I don't know if you know, I watched it on YouTube. Um, there's a lot of

shots hit. Obviously there's no sponsors, so there's no commercials. Um, it's different, but so is you know everything that I see in the business. Um. But it's it's to me, it's a positive thing to have more opportunities for golfers to play outside of the outside of the you know, the social aspect that where the money comes from. So these guys who have now crossed the proverbial ruby kon, like, what do they do now? So in Nanny's case, he can't play Latino America, you can't play corn Ferry, you

can't play Canada. So is Asia now the spot because they have this alliance with the Saudis. Like, is the balance of power and lower level golf going to shift towards Asia because that's where the O I think so yeah that I think I told you that. I hadn't never, never had a conversation about the Live Golf with Andy at the beginning. It was all about the International series they have. Um, I think they're going to have eleven

events or thirteen events. I was looking for a place for Andy to play, Um, he couldn't get his number, would just not get in a corn ferry then, UM, so yeah, I think that's exactly what it's gonna do. Um, there's gonna be you know, I think the International Series is going to be between four and seven million dollar purses next year. Um. And if you call that's huge

for developmental circuits, I would I would call that. I don't know what I'd call that triple A because you know, the International Series will be triple A compared to Live. The Asian Tour will be you know, double A below that. And I don't know if there's gonna be events under that, but that would be you know, it's always been my premise. I don't know if you just saw the tour just came out and and it's sixty dollars now to sign up for Q School. Um, there's three stages. Um, you

know you gotta travel caddies do all that. And if you do get on, you can't even get to the tour. You'd still go to the corner for your tour, which is a great developmental tour. But the purses are not really enough for somebody to make a living. Um, And I don't let me uh mac, I'm gonna jump in here because I got a message just a little bit ago from a source on on tour who talked to

a tour official. And here's the reasons that he said that the price went up playing for a million next year, their prices, their persons are going from seven to a million, the increase in uh O w g R status, World ranking points. And the last one made me laugh hysterically. In said adding eight new sites on at Q School, Like, great, you're adding new sites where I can pay my saxty. Do you think that's some sort of perk to me as a player, Like what, I don't. It's it's unreal.

It really is unreal? Is it unreal? Ryan? Or is it obnoxious greed? I mean it is, it's obnoxious greed like and and I mean this is a whole separate thing and we're gonna get off in a tangent. But um, you know again, they say it's to eliminate dreamers. That's not true because they have a prequalifying stage. It's the cheapest part of the stage. That's literally what the pre qualifying was made for. Ryan who who's using their praise, Uh,

get rid of the dreamers, eliminate the dreamers. Well that's why they claim they have to have a price, because the high price because they don't want people, you know, they don't want me teeing it up at at Q School, right, But it's such a minor part like in the like if you go look at Q school scores, there might be ten or twelve people who shoot like ninety at pre Q. But that's why the pre Q stage was

literally invented to weed these people out. Right, And anyway, it's just it's there's no like we have all said a million times, there's nowheres here like we can all bitch about to live rightfully, so but to make money, and trust me, they make so if you want to play uh mcnos Andy is it would have been in this boat. If you want to play corn Frey Q School and missed there, then play Latin American Q School and you missed there, and you want to play Canadian

Q School. There has twelve thousand dollars in entry fees. Twelve thousand dollars in entry fees to play three Q schools. It's insane. The dream is what the whole thing's about. Uh That's why we're drawn to it. Almost every sport, a kid has a dream to get in the bigs and we're gonna follow this path there and then some days going to get there and hoisted the trophy. And the biggest single difference between the PGA Tour and this live series is you earn your way onto the PGA

Tour by shooting scores. You kind of do in the live but at the end of the day, it's an invitational And to me, that's a huge difference. And for that fundamental reason, even though no one would ever articulate it that way, long term, I don't really see people gravitating to this live tour because it doesn't have that underlying competitive spirit that I think we love. Actually, yeah,

I agree with that, Michael. Um, I mean it was funny at the at the if you watch some of them to find around on the streaming and they're just talking about the money constantly, how much this puck could be worth. That's all they can fall back on. There's no history. But then they have this this splashy trophy presentation and the announcer she's like, okay, finishing third place, you know, for two million dollars, and the crowd around me he's like it aspires a little motion, but like

not not much. It's it's we don't get a piece of that. So um, but Mac, I want to go back to the point is we're just trying to educate and even for myself to understand the changing landscape. So there's been some talk about these live guys now trying to join the European PGA Tour, which would give them many playing options. Um, if they want to supplement the live schedule now, it would make sense for the Eupean Tour.

They'd get all these great players. If they could co sanction a few of these sound, these live events, then that would be a lot of money flowing to the European Tour members. Um. But the European Tour entered in the strategic alliance with the PGA Tour. So what where does the European Tour f into this now? And will they try and back away from the PGA Tour and get in bed with with Live, Like, what is your thought on where the European to the European Tour can

survive this? Um? I don't know, because again, if they I mean, I guess there's in your I don't think they've had a Q school in Europe for a couple of years because of COVID. I imagine when they release how to get onto the Asian Tour um and knowing that there's international series events, I don't know, I don't know how many. I don't know what the person on European Tour events, but they're not it's not huge, but they're going to have the second largest real tour that

has world ranking points. Last week you had what five or six guys that finished that qualified into the Lives, So there was an upward motivation, right. UM, I don't know. I don't know how the European Tour will survive if they don't. I mean, that's my point. I don't know enough about it to say it, but um, and and guys like Graham mcdoal who would always support the Eropean Tour and Poulter Lee Westwood, you know that there. Interestingly, the European Tour has not said that their members are

banished like the PGA Tour dead. They're kind of sitting on the sidelines trying to figure this out. And so um, you know, Martin Kimer is talking about he wants to go play you know, the BMW or the German Open whatever I can't remember, if it supports whoever the sponsors. He wants to back to Germany to play. He's not

sure if he's going to be able to. Well, it doesn't serve the European Tour to banish these guys, just like it doesn't serve the PGA Tour by the European Tour needed stars even more because there's fewer of them. So um, where where the eurotur goes becomes? That's the

next domino in all of this. And everyone's holding their breath because they have not made any pronouncements like the PGA Tour did, so the rumblings continue, and um, it's just it's such a uh you know what's what's kind of happened though, And going back to like getting in getting into the tour to become a star. How much money it takes. I mean, it's an amazing amount of money, right, And there's a lot of people that run out of money. And if they don't run out of money, they've got

the pressure of money while they're trying to develop. In other words, we'll go to baseball. Kid comes out of college, he's signed by the Braves, but he's not good enough to be in the majors. They put him in single A. They don't pay much, but they cover all his expenses, They cover all his training, They cover all the things that he needs to do to bring his skill level up to be in the majors. One day, you know,

you start leaving people out. You know, they're starting people to unless you've got money, or you're one of these kids that maybe gets a good contract from a club company, but you're gonna see club you know, club companies are not paying the kind of money they used to pay kids coming out of college that could support you know, and he was US Amateur champion and he got enough money for a couple of years. But you know, with

COVID and his hip surgery. He was going to run out of money Monday, qualify um And so to me, you know, everybody worries about the top of it. I worry about all the kids that I'm signing coming out of college. How do they get a roadmap to become a star, because it takes time to develop to become a tour player. And and people go, well, they can't play for money, they probably shouldn't be playing on tour

and all that stuff. But in reality, having funding to go and play so you can develops, it's a much different story. And is that what you want? Is that only people you want to have a chance or people that come for money or have this kind of I don't know if that's fair. Um, you know, And we talked about all this stuff, and you know, I think

I may have mentioned the matter. You know. I know someone had a hardware store and it owned it for thirty years and Home Depot Depot was coming in and building this big home depot and they came to him and said, hey, we want to buy your store and we want you to come run our hardware department at home Depot. And the guy was just so mad about big business and so against you know, this Wall Street money coming in and building this home depot, and he ran him out of his office and six months after

they opened, he went bankrupt and lost everything. Was he right? I mean, he didn't like queer the money was coming from. He didn't like where it was coming from. But the reality was that this he couldn't compete, and like it or not, that's I think that's where this is going

to go. Um if you know, I think in this situation and the book of Art of War, uh, I still say the Tours shouldn't have at least had meetings and seeing that there was some kind of common ground to move forward, because I don't think lives going anywhere. I really don't The tours arrogance. Obviously, the Tours arrogance

has definitely been him in the ass. I mean, and several times, this great disruption is happening because of the you know, in large part because of the Tours arrogance, wouldn't you say, Ryan, you know, they've been the only show in town. And uh, you know, I think they believe that the political ramifications would would offset it. And you know, once Dunce Dustin left, now the next guy really is going to face almost No, he's gonna face some on Twitter Hill face some, but in the scope

of things, he's not gonna face things. Right Like Dustin took all the heat, Bryson is gonna take some more heat, you know, I mean a little bit of the less heat. Patrick's taking a little less heat Patrick Perez. They've already forgot about, uh, you know, like the next guy, unless it's a huge, huge name like Rory or Tiger or whatever, like abe answer goes, No, one's gonna be mad. Like it's kind of like there'll be some very vocal people, man.

But I think in the scheme of things, and that's what the too are underestimated, in my opinion, they're just like, yes, we have the greatest product. Yes we're fine, it doesn't matter. This thing won't go and here we are. It's going. Yeah. I think Monahan badly overestimated the value of PGA tour membership. He thought that was his his ace. Like if you guys go, you're not gonna be to members anymore. And

they're like, Okay, no worries, we're gone. And um, I think you know, Chepec has said this for years, like if you're a good player, you're focused on the majors and all these other events in between are just filler where you can work on a game and or you know, feel your corporate commitment. But you know, in some places you might have an emotional attachment like a pebble beach or whatever. But is a live event in London any different than you know, the Greater Hartford Open. I mean

it's kind of similar crowd, similar energy, similar field. Like I think that that Monahan's critical mistake here was overvaluing what the PGA tour means that these guys and Graham McDowell said, you know, people don't want to hear this, but it's just a business decision for us, Like is a golfer you gotta look at how am I spending my time and what's the return on the investment? And um,

so I think this has been laid bare. They need romanticism about you know, you have all these relationships in the community and the tournament directors and these longtime volunteers, and I love going back to this town and that's my favorite steakhouse. Like that's all out the window once once the persones get big enough. So um the allegiance of the PGA tour is much more shallow than Monahan thought, and that that's one of his that's one of his big mistakes. And all of this, I'll tell you guys.

I you know, I lived in New York, you know, Michael. The last time we worked together was the story on September twelve, after nine eleven, right Like, for me, this has always been you know, oh, Saudi money. You know, Alan, you wrote that incredible story that we dropped earlier in the Firepro Collective about don't don't forget about who Saudi Arabia is. Uh, you know, seventeen and nineteen of the you know, the terrorists came from Saudi Arabia. They knocked

down the Twin Towers. We lost over three thousand Americans, two of them. I would call friends, and you know, it was always like I can't, you know, I can't. I can't be a part of I can't support this, you know. And and obviously Greg Norman is to me is just a is something that you find on the bottom of your shoe. And and and so I can't support that either, and and and yet you know yesterday CNN,

Joe Biden, you know, gas prices are going up. You know, we are going to reset our relationship with Saudi Arabia. It's like, you know, the United States of America is resetting its relationship with Saudi Arabia for you know, reasons that seem obvious, you know, oil and and money. And as he's trying to preserve his place as a you know, a president of the United States. And and we've had our issues with the DJ Tour. I there is no

other game in town. I I we have. You know, there's a monopoly on professional golf there jacking up prices of Q school. They limit purses at the minor league. You know, right now, as I sit here today, as we continue to process everything that's going on and setting aside, you know, and again, United States isn't perfect, China is not perfectly. You know, let's go country by country, you know, and Mac, You've made this point, right, I mean, nothing's

perfect And in the big scheme of things. At this point, I'm in the camp of the disruption. I'm in the camp of that there's a copy, there's a competition. I'm in the camp of like, let it all play out in courts, Let these guys go, not go. At this point, I don't really Okay, you know, I just left god Hill Park. Member member. You know, you know what I care about the recreational game, the game of golf, the health of the game as a whole, the fact that I want to teach my son the game, and some

integrity around what it brings to us. In like like, I'm sort of like, let it just let it burn, Let the PGA Tour burn, Let all this stuff burn, and let's see what a bigger, better product will be on the back end of this and have it makes sense from a low level to a top level for the people who you know, who can shoot sixty two on the given day, have the chance to go make a living playing professional golf. It doesn't it doesn't need

to be that that crazy. Now, I think that's really well said, and I agree with a lot of it, and I would I would. Now it's a great moment. And Matt we talked about this very briefly earlier. To really flip this whole thing and for the PGA Tour to become the disrupter. You think you're gonna disrupt us, Well, we're gonna disrupt you. And now they move slowly because they're they're Titanic, but they've got to reinvent themselves here.

The PGA tour has to reinvent itself here. Now to Monahan, it's easy to be critical money hand now, but I would say it was not a fair fight from the get go. He did the math. The math was easy. They got forger billion. We got a couple of millions sitting around here. So he was gonna lose no matter He was gonna lose no matter what. He's got no money. They got all the money. Um, you know, he every week he's got to be on the phone with this

chairman and that chairman. Begging began, beggan, But now he could really I don't know whether it's a slim down tour, it's a shorter season, it's stealing some of these ideas. Maybe there could be. I would much prefer PGA tour that was athletic and lean, and you cared about it because the root of this whole thing, for majors were all drawn to the majors, or drawing the majors because

we care, the players care. The course cares, of course, doesn't want him embarrass, the members don't want him embarrass. There's so much pride on the line with I don't think you're ever going to have that with this lived tour.

And they can try to dress it up with the cabs and the fly OBErs and the fifty four holes and blah blah blah, but the fact is golf is a slow, contemplative, difficult game and it always will be and it will always be and there's only a small segment of the population that's really really going to be drawn to it. And the PGA Tour has got to get a brain trust together, which they may not have at the moment, and maybe they need the five of us plus Jake and figure out what can we be

because this is not working. It's not working. Get off your ass, quit try and get out of the Ivory tower, get down on the ground, go out to some of these cues. Go it's talk to the players who six dollars you know how much money that is. I'm here with Daniel Augustus, who's playing on the ap G, A who got boned out of being at the Billy Horshell's event for no apparent reason, even though he's top five

on the money list. Like, stop doing stuff that bones people who are trying to make a living playing professional golf. Get off your ass and do something that makes sense and be sensible about what's happened. These guys are masters of their craft and they're getting roaded tilled into the great ground of like you can't make it because you don't have enough money. What is going on? Elevate Tiger to commissioner of competition. I don't care any Timely wants

paying whatever he wants. He needs something to do with the rest of his life. Have a short season from January through the Ryder Cup, get rid of that President's Cup, and then have a two month season of three man, three person teams a senior player, a regular player and a women player, people who have some common interest to bond in some way, and they'll play some kind of team competition through October, maybe mid November Caliday. Actually have

an offseason and then started again in January. Do something totally different, but as the starting point, bring entire because Tiger is still Tiger, and none of these other guys said, grab you uson. By the way, if I never see Patrick Reid hit another golf shot again in my life, I will not care me either. Is this a podcast or a therapy well, if you've had you've had an

outlet all week, we've been sitting around. Yeah. And by the way, Jeff, Jeff Ogilvie will be on with us all next week and he couldn't join today because it was his birthday yesterday. Having birthday to Jeff Ogilvie, one of the most thoughtful voices in the game, and I can't wait to hear his great perspective on all of this. But I have a feeling he's going to be in

the camp of I'm for the disruption. He's a guy who started the sad belled invitation himself to try to have got people make more money at that level in which you're you're you're you're giving more money to the people who don't win as opposed to the people who

do win. I think the fact that the people who are causing the disruption is Saudi Arabia and they have so many political ramifications, you know, all those kind of things stacked against them, and it seems to at least get beginning off the ground and have some legs is a real testament to how the PGA tour was sitting on their hands right like this is the easiest one to defeat if someone gets you know, we've talked about the Premium League or some something else, like if this

Saudi thing goes down because people are scared politically, I think it's opened the door for the fact that the PGA tour is very vulnerable and you don't have the political ramifications of Saudi Arabia, and you get funding together and you do this, then everybody's jumping ship because like, you can do this same if you do, if somebody could figure out the same format and not have Saudi Arabian money, everyone's gone, all the all the top players are gone. There will be aligned for the top forty

eight players. So I think it's just a real testament to a real shot at the tour that Saudi Arabia, despite all the political stuff, is taking players. Yeah, that's a good point. And let me tell you the Staudis aren't going anywhere, because I saw them here all week. These guys are dying for legitimacy and for acknowledgment. And we're here at the Centurion Club, which is like this real bastion of the London ruling class, probably a place

that Saudis might not be welcome in another context. And so that's all these guys want is to be accepted and that to feel like they're part of this this global elite. You know. They they they've always been kept out of even you know, sort of like Trump can't buy his way into Augusta National, like the Staudiges could

not buy their way in the Centurion Club. But all of a sudden, here they are, and um, you know, even even in the post round trophy presenta and his excellency said, you know, he explained live L I V is Roman numerals for fifty four. He's like, that's the perfect score in golf. Like, I guess if you're Bertie l teen holes, it is. But I'd like to have an eagle or a Nissan there. So that's debatable. But

and he said, you know, it's never been done. I know some guys have shot fifty eight and maybe fifty seven. He's like, if anyone shoots fifty four and the Lip competition will pay them fifty four million dollar bonus, like even serious, like now that's that's that would be a health a round of golf. But that can happen in Portland if if they play fifty yards, Yeah, I mean exactly like maybe they'll start setting the course is easier

because so someone make a run at it. But the point is, like this guy was, it was like you're you're toasting it like an occasion. You're a little tipsy, like okay, I'll buy all buy six rounds for everybody. Like that was kind of the vibe like okay, million dollars, sure, I don't care. Like that was just the energy of it. So these guys are loving this there they're not going anywhere like there. Now they get to go to Portland,

another great city. You know that nothing. They're gonna be rubbing elbows with the US pre Donald Trump twice this year, Like the statis are going nowhere. But one thing I wanted to um, you know you're comment Michael Patrick Reed. I mean, can we just acknowledge that the guys that they are acquiring are a bunch of pain in the asses Patrick Reid, Bryceon Di siambo Ian Poulter, Sergio Garcia, I mean, Pat Perez, Like I'm sure that the mac you knowls, the guys who manage the player relationships on

the PGA tour, they must be celebrating. They don't have to do with these guys anymore, Like it's a really funny kevin Na, Like, it's a really funny group of personalities. I think it helps live because these are players that inspire emotion and conversation on social media that's probably much

bigger than their actual accomplishments might be. Um, but it's it's a did you imagine like a rain delay and they're all in the locker room like all these all these weird dues like it could be it could be hysterical. So I don't know, there's it's that's a lot of personality up in something up in the mountains right now.

I talked to an older in him and about it and and he had I don't enough his comment, but you know he he said, you know, look, you know, my my father fault landed in Normandy and you know, to free you know, against Germany, and how he would never have a German car and he had, he bought a BMW and his wouldn't let him park it in

the driveway. Um, we've had Japan bombas and forty one, and I'm sure there were people that fought in specific they would never buy a product from Japan and they had the same So is it there is there gonna be a day that where Saudi Arabia's forgiven and you know, we move on and they do come, you know, come into the world. Um does it happen? Um? So I you know they're not going anywhere. Um. I don't think the political problem with the money is going to stop him.

I don't think it's gonna stop anybody. Most the people behind the scenes. There's a lot of players that I've gotten calls from that I don't represent, that wanted to know how did you get Andy in? What's the deal? A lot of players and they you know, I mean, I tweeted it out before the tournament met I said, if Henry, if Henny Due plus wins the four million dollars, there's gonna be a line from here, you know, from Chicago to Portland. Uh, sign it up, because they assume

they can beat Henny. And sure enough, the dude finished second, collects two point eight million dollars, changes his life. And I guarantee you it made a lot of people in Canada this week and a lot of people on the European tour. Goo. I've beat that guy a million times and he just collected two point eight million dollars. Maybe I should go get in line. He basically tripled his

lifetime career earnings in three days. He's only five, but it's pretty startling like that, It's incredible all and he he turned pro seven years ago and he's I mean his two wins on the I mean I looked it up, his two wins on the Sunshine Tour forty one dollars and forty three dollars. So like, I mean literally, if he never gets a lift start again, it changed his

life today, like changed his life. Okay, so so so, So the question is, just before we go, we'll wrap this up, let's go around the horn, because we got all next week to continue to have conversations about this. Where does the p g A Tour go from here? You know, instead of throwing pit money at the the already rich, instead of you know, instead of raising persons like isn't there money and time and energy better spent at restructuring all of their tours and not just throwing

money at like the top ten richest players on tour. Well, I I felt this earlier in the week, and I really feel it now. I think the tours only play is to concede defeat and try and forge another alliance and do it with the Saudis and bring them into the fold, which of course live would love because it legitimizes them. And for for the tour players, it's the dream scenario. You keep your membership, you get to play Pebble Beach and all the places you like, you know,

whatever your favorite tournaments are. You keep all the FedEx cut bonuses and all that stuff, and you get to cherry pick a handful these live events and make insane amounts of money. Like from the players perspective, that's the ultimate victory, and it could be a win for golf fans, you know, if you put those events into the fall when there's not much going on, to get the stars off the couch because the persons are so big, there's

just team element. Could be a fun twist and can get the tour that needs to shake up its formats. Like to me, it's blindingly obvious now making World Golf championships like this, yeah, or you know, they just they just become adjuncts. You know, it's it's just you call it some high falutin this international series and whatever you want to call it. Um it would strengthen the tour schedule. The money would flow to the players. You would give

the Saudias of legitimacy they crave. There's really no losers that I can see. This is very unlikely. Yeah, I mean Greg, Greg Norman and Jane working together. Yeah, that that's what I think. I mean, Alan, they might have been able to do that two months ago, but now I think it's too late. I mean, we might have to get a reading from mac in the Art of War. Whether it's too late or not. But my guess it, My guess it is. Uh, it is too late for that. Um. I don't I don't, I don't know. I don't see.

They could find maybe a partner, but I don't think it would be I don't think it would be the saudiest I thought. Alan, you might say something even more extreme, which is let them all go. We're still the PGA Tour. And um, if you love golf, you're gonna would love to watch what we what we give you, which has worked for a hundred years and probably will for the next center years. You know, this is bandwagon stuff and

there is tried and true. Um. You know, if Major League Baseball, if there was a competing league that where there where there were metal bats and you know in twot you know homeer infences, it wouldn't be golf, it wouldn't be It would be a different form of golf. And um, I think the PGA Tour can still be the PGA Tour, but a different PGA Tour than the one that we've known. UM. I think there's a lot

of changes coming. I think what that probably what they'll do is they'll start looking at reducing the aids of the Senior Tour, of the Champions Tour below fifty maybe probably get it to forty five. Give give these guys that spend those few years commentating or trying to commentate or whatever a place to go play. I think they will.

I don't know. I don't think they'll go back to the to the Rabbit days where there's only sixty people exempt, But I do think maybe they'll go to lessening how many exempt players there are, opening up the Monday qualifiers to get more because you know, you're right, you know, it's great. We always want to see Tiger win, we want to see Rory win. But how cool is it when somebody Monday qualifies and wins and changes their life. I think Argent at Wall might know Corey Connors was

the last guy to Monday qualify. I think that their development tour will have to find a way to go back to the roots of like the Hogan Tour. It was developed where people could drive week to week and keep their their costs down and their expenses down, not flying to the Bahamas for two weeks and then you know, South America for two weeks and then. And I think that that qualifier I think when they came up with Hogan was I think there's eight, but there used to

be sixteen or eighteen spots a week two Monday qualifying. Um. You know, they've got the they've got the PGA tour you deal where they give a guy status on a certain or as long as they stay in tours college for two four years. Uh. If they would go look at their star base and see how many years of college all their star base went to college. If they went it wasn't four years. Um. So I think they've got a lot of changes that they're gonna make. I

do I think. I Mean, I haven't talked to anybody, but I think they have to get the developmental part of it. Back to the grassroots. I'm gonna give you an example, and the old Tree he does, his number doesn't get in. But there are people that play events on the corn Fry Tour to play five events so they can get their insurance paid, and they're just filling the field and they're taking spots away. Um. So I

think there's you know, the past champion status. Um. You know, the past champions status has brought up when people were quitting golf at forty, not winning golf tournaments at sixty. Um, so all those things need to revamped, I think. So I do think they can do it. And you know the Tour, you know, the President's Cup, you know, I mean every year are their stars have to go spend a week they don't get paid to go play for

their country. Um. You know, maybe they could have switched that around a little bit and and let the European team play every other year against the you know, the World Tour. Because these guys, they say they love playing for the country, but behind the scenes it wears them down. It's they know they're being used that week and they're not getting paid. Um. I think they just did too much and deluded the product and just maybe bring in you know, you know, if you've been to Sanderson Farms,

there's no field there. I mean, Sam Burns won. But if you go to that tournament and tell me it's not a fun tournament, they that community embraces it. They have a great time with it. It's kind of like it's a small you know, can't be compared to what Scott still is at the Waste Management. But I wonder if they suspended play and didn't nobody played at Waste Management for a day that anybody would notice, Well, they

have a hundred and twenty people come. I mean, I mean there's more to it than just this game of golf. We say, man, you know, there's so much. But if the local communities that the money is raised for, they're still getting to benefit. And I don't I don't know that it's a big deal of if Rory doesn't show up or if send them show up. So I think there's a lot of changes they can do to make it. When there is a PGA Tour event being played, it is exciting and the big guys are there, and maybe

that there's a level underneath it in the center. Some farms in Sea Island where I live that it's a community gathering. I mean, it's kind of a it's a it's a fun time, So I think they will. I don't think I agree with you. I don't think they're far I think they're too far gone to negotiate with. How about treating the caddies a little better too, you know, like I mean, it doesn't end. But Ryan, I know

you love this. After Alan, Michael and Max speak, you got some got some thoughts for us, after the people who have covered it their entire life or lived it, I have to go to finish it up. This is always great. I swort of gotten. Next fucking podcast, We're changing the order. I'm going for fucking stupid. Oh, let's wrap it up with the guy who's been in this game the least perfect. You've built, your built You've given a voice. You know, you've you've diligently and selflessly given

a voice to the level of player that we're talking about. Honestly, honestly, I'm scared. Uh you know, Mark and I have had this conversation a lot. I am. I am very scared for the guys like Mark or Andy or those guys that that pro golf is getting so focused because of

Live on the top players of the game. That that's where the PGA Tour heads and the corn Ferry becomes seventy one on down or fifty one and on down right like and and this game there's no gonna be no surprise winners ever right never, There's never going to be the Parker McLoughlin's or uh, the Sean mckeel's or ever. Like. That's where I'm concerned about that is that they're gonna look at this product. They've always been top uh of

the field, stars focused the PGA Tour. Now this makes them even more hyper focus because that's what the Live is doing. I'm concerned in ten years, we're looking at the Live Tour at forty eight players and the PGA Tour at seventy and everybody else is fighting for nuggets to feed those two tours. Wow, this is this is unbelievable. And lots more coming including US Open Week, there's a major week. When do we talk about that? Matt? I mean, where are they playing that? Here? It's a shot, it's

a shotgun. Start, Michael, you know you haven't heard but Ryan, last point, there's a little thing in my book where m Brandon Shambilie's replaying this conversation you have with Phil like in the nineties and Phil saying the PJ hors should just be the top thirty players and that's it. And AND's like he wasn't aware, like that would be eliminating my job. He didn't even understand what he was

saying to me. But like that, that's that's been a vision for some of these It's so funny and way before the Lift Tour, uh like maybe six months ago, Billy Horschel said the same thing. He said, maybe we should, you know, get the PGA Tour down to eighty people. And it's so funny how people, even the stars forget, like where they came from. Billy Horschel went to Q school four times, okay, like finished a hundred fift on the PGA Tour money list and kept his card three times.

So like before we started getting to like, hey, let's get rid of everybody. Let's That's why I hope that the PGA Tour never gets to that because regardless of the top top stars, as as Mac knows and we all know, is the tour is made up of mostly guys who have played somewhere else or didn't get through Q school or had to go back to Q school and now became stars. So that's what I hope that the tour and the pack hold onto that we never get to that. But I think this is at least

from my behalf, and obviously it's a biased opinion. Is is I'm concerned that we're like to forty eight player fields away and divide up the stars and let's go in ten years. I'm afraid of that too. I would like to remain hopeful that as a result of this disruption in Cage Rattle, that that in the end that maybe we end up with a better system and a

better product. I'm gonna stay hopeful. Well, you know, I think there was an implication in Max pointed out, you know, Sanderson Farms in the Sea Island event, that if the tour, the tour has lost its way. Nobody thinks of Jay Monahan running a not for profit company with the corporate jets and all the CEOs in the in the in the time that they have. But what Mac is describing is a not for profit vision of the golf. And one thing this Live Golf is not I mean so literally,

it is a for profit company. UH, and the PGA Tour has to differentiate itself from that. You know, at the at the Masters, they never knew who even knows or cares what what what first place money is UH. At the Master's it never it never gets talked about. Um. Greg Norman couldn't even couldn't even get Fred really on the phone to talk about possible path from Live to the Masters in the first place. So there there is a it's a different thing what Live is trying to do.

And I think what the PJ Tour can do is double down and what they really are, which is what Mac just described really super regional events. And even that Pebble Beach Tournament as national it is, is a really a regional event UM that puts on the show for locals, that raises money for local charity, and on some weeks but not every week, the whole country tunes in, but

more often maybe not. I I hope that, I hope that in the end that when we go live with next year's wish Bone Brawl, instead of calling is Andrew Shoffley and Fred Couples and John Ashworth to say cease and desists, they say, Wow, what an incredible event. You're having out there. I hear you're raising money for kids. The PGA Tour would like to send a check for

fifty thou dollars and add to the pot. And congratulations for putting together an incredible event with Persimmon Woods at a many municipal for twelve people, twelve hundred onlookers, have a great week, and uh and and we'll see us soon. Where do we send the money? And instead of when we're out trying to cover Mark Baldwin's dreams area of getting a sponsors rexemption to a T and T and we're covering his round out there where no cameras are and we're showing a few videos and a few pictures.

They say thank you for supporting our sponsors and our event and bringing more eyeballs to our product, because we know you put out a lot of money and a lot of effort and manpower to try to do so. Instead of the phone calls of cease and desist, it's a phone call to say and celebrate the idea that there are people out there trying to promote your product. Get out of the tower, get down on the ground.

Otherwise I'm all for the other side. Well, we have we have cats sleeping with dogs in Norman and Monahan. Now you've got you're reinventing the whole tours corporate ethos like this if we turn in a bunch of dreamers here on this podcast. But I think that's that's what this moment is doing, Like everything's up for grabs and we're just we're we're all, we're all. No one knows what's gonna happen, and it's gonna be fascinating, and we're just trying to be tour guides for the listeners. But

there's there's so much unsettled and to play out. It's really a gift from the content gods. I mean for the players. For the players, it's a windfall of undreamed of riches. For us, it's just endless content. So ei there are some there are different winners here, I guess Alan, thanks for thanks for everything you did this week, for making that track, for doing your job, for having the brass set of balls that you have to show up even though Michelson didn't have the brass set to answer

any questions. And uh, again, I appreciate everybody being here. I appreciate everybody, everybody listening more to come from the fire Drill and the Fire Pick Collective next week from Boston. It should be an incredible event and I can't wait to see how this unfolds. Um Alan, you're the man. I say this very seriously. Get home safely, put another log on the fire. Nobody here is to get the time