The true leaders in the game are people like yourselves that are willing to actually do something for the good of the growth of the game as it relates to affordability, accessibility, kids.
I got daughts in my head.
Can't get them, joh, and not the thing what I'm thinking about. Can't get them out, joh, not the thing what I'm thinking about.
Hello, this is Alan schipknoking back for another fire drill. This is a special one. We are going to talk about the reimagining of Golden Gate Park golf Course. Those of you who have been following the Firefit channels, no, we've been in the dirt from the very beginning. There's been videos, there's been stories, but we want to hear
from the protagonists. So I'm joined by Matt Janelle of course, also Dan Burke Coe of First t of San Francisco, j Blasei, the golf course designer, and Josh Lewis, who's the project manager and the guru of all things agronomy. But before we get to those our special guests, Matt, let's pay a few bills. Tell the people who's helping us, sponsoring this podcast, and just your general excitement level for this project. Is before we get deep in the weeds on this podcast.
Well, yeah, thanks to Dormy Workshop, the family business based in Halifax, Nova Scotia who create all the fine leather goods, some of which are in our pit shop at Firepitcollective dot com and in pro shops all over the world.
Now, they are very good at what they do.
We love that we're partners with them and appreciate their support. And then Link Soul obviously the lifestyle brand I've been wearing forever and always will. Anything John Ashworth does I follow, and certainly as it relates to Link Soul and the clothing that he makes and what we wear a lot out at goat Hill Park, especially the outer outer wear. The hoodies are some of my favorites and the shorts
are very popular. So thanks to Linksoul for all of their support and partnership and for everything they bring to the game of golf. I will say that Alan this and we get to it at the end of this podcast. But this group of people, this project, this reimagination of a community asset that you know was you know, was surviving. I mean they were getting you know, upwards of forty
thousand rounds a year. I cannot wait to see what happens next at Golden Gate Park and then other you know San Francisco municipalities on the heels of what will be deemed a massive success for everybody involved here, huge win.
Let's let's get to it, guys. I was out at Golden Gate Park with the three of you. Matt couldn't make it, but everyone else on this on this little chat, we got to play the golf course for real earlier this week. It's not open to the public just yet because they're waiting for the clubhouse to finish, but golf is being played at Golden Gate. Let's just go around the horn. So, Dan, now you've seen this come to life. How excited are you and how pleased are you with the finished product?
Yeah?
I would say a twelve on a ten scale. You know, we knew the site had great bones, but to actually execute the project to a pretty high standard with a lot of unknowns, and now to see people play it or play it yourself. The number one, you know word or feedback is the word fun, right, And that's exactly what we want, whether it's you know, a young girl playing or a you know, a scratch golfer, an older retired guy. You know, it's unanimous feedback is that it's fun,
and it really is. So I'm just you know, rerilled that we were able to execute this to the standard it's at and can't wait to share it with you know, the community and you know the golf world in general.
So Jay, we weren't in the same group, but it was fun that you get glimpses of other other players and you get you see that, you see shots, and just just the four of us that that I was playing with out there. So many times the ball is getting closer to the hole, you know, on the fourth a little punch bowl and was like playing off the
left mound, which I actually did perfectly. It trickled all the way around the back of the green and then and then took a hard right turn, came back to the flag and I looked like it might go in. Like there was a lot of shots out there, it felt like the ball was moving and usually getting closer to the destination, which is one of the thrills in golf.
I mean for you to hear the whoops and and uh and and see the smiles, like what did it mean to you just to see golfers having fun on your on the golf course, you help bring to live.
Well, that's that's what it's all about, right, I mean, that's what we set out to try and achieve. That's why we selected the turf types that we did, That's why we shape the greens that the way that we did is we wanted it to be a fun factory. And to your point, you know, one of the most fun things in all of golf is watching the ball move on the ground, and particularly when it's moving closer
to the hole. And so that was truly one of the most exciting things about the other day was to get to watch others hit shots that were you know, they'd hit it beyond the hole and have a backstop that would bring it back, or they'd hit it, you know, right of the hole and use a sideboard that would
feed it there. Or they'd get on the green and then there'd be a putt that you know, they'd make a normal twenty foot put towards the hole and then they'd say, I want to try going this way instead, and they you know, they'd turn their their whole body and angle ninety degrees away and use the slopes and put it a different way to get to the hole. So it was tons and tons of fun to watch that happen. And what it means is that people are
out there making memories with each other. You could see them high fiving and putting their arms around each other, and you know, at the end of the day, it's just golf, but we really are hopefully making memories for people that will last a lifetime and that's very, very rewarding.
That's cool, Josh. You know, for a brand new golf course, the turf was in spectacular shape. What are the challenges of this particular site and you have golfers out there wall that the course is still maturing, Like what can golfers expect in the coming months on how the course will keep shaping up? And what are the challenges now? Is you have to turn the reins over to the city at some point and let them maintain the golf course.
Can you just speak to the playing conditions where they are and where they're going.
Yeah, I think I think right now we're pretty happy. Everybody's you know, I think the golf courses is good. It's ready to open. It's you know, the golf balls are taking the slopes the way they're supposed to the playabilities there. But with any project like this, there's there's a maturity phasing. I guess, you know, we're kind of in phase one. You know. Year over year, as you know, root health and turf health, density, all these things continue to build, the golf.
Course is going to get better and better.
So you know, as we open there's still going to be areas that are maybe a little softer than we like, or not quite a turf, you know, isn't quite as dense as we want, things like that. But I think as we saw the other day, it's it's in a position where it's really fun to play, and that's the ultimate goal. As it relates to hand off to the city. I mean, those guys are more than capable of doing a great job, and I think there, you know, the
energy around this is so good. You know, it's been such a collaborative effort so far that we should just see this thing continue to sing as it moves forward and just get get better and better.
That's that's the hope.
Matt knows you're kind of an apostle for for public golf and accessibility and affordability. Where do you think Golden Gate fits into the larger golf landscape.
Now.
I mean it goes from a guy from northern California who grew up in Santa Rosa, who frequented a lot of golf in and around San Francisco, and have you know, had never played Golden Gate Park. Uh knew it existed, but had never heard you got to go play Golden Gate Park. You should see golden Bit never heard that.
It goes from like off the national curiosity radar to on it, and not only just on it, but like at the top of a list, right like at the top of a list of people wanting to say I got I gotta see this, I got to play this, And then the chances are they're going to want to come back, or they're going to spread spread that gospel, spread that word, which is what golfers are so great at doing.
I just did this.
You got to go see it too, And I think that that's exciting for so many reasons. Yes, this is a hub of first t and you know, Dan, we'll
get into that. Like you know, the intentions here at the core of what just took place at Golden Gate Park is that it's for the kids, it's for accessibility, affordability, fun factor, truly growing the game that you know, they planted seeds of fescue and bent grass greens, but they also this is a this is a garden of growth, and that's going to be good for kids because with kids come adults, and with adults and aging adults that
are dealing with you know, health and physical issues. This is walkable, this is accessible like it's just in the heart of one of the big cities in the United States that, oh, by the way, needed a needed a pr win for all. I love San Francisco. I'm sad about the sort of the sort of the state of the city itself. This is a huge win for San Francisco, for the game of golf, for kids, for first tea, for fun factors, for all. It checks all the boxes
and tribute to everybody on this call. I know there's a lot of other people involved, and that's kind of my question to you, Dan, is it was you know, it's one thing to say and a lot of people do I want to I want to make this. This is underachieving, This could be better, this should be better, and you did something about it. I guess my question is like from a donor's perspective, and I know some of them were out there the other day.
What's what's there?
What's their feedback? Is this something worthwhile? And hopefully there are more donors around the country that will do something similar.
Yeah, I think it's a good perspective.
Matt is you know, in my year ten years at First Tea, which it's it's really twenty years old, you know, as we've you know, it's noted that Sandy Tatum started that, right, and people give to people they respect for worthy causes. So you take an organization like First He and our missions really to change, you know, underserved kids' lives. And Sandy's perspective of this game that meant so much to him,
not just from an athletic perspective but a life perspective. Right, the lessons he learned, the network he built to take that to underserved kids made perfect sense to him very late in his life, and he was all in right, and that kind of marching order that he brought to the community that's still with us today. So our leadership
looks at strategy very importantly. They take very seriously the impact we're having on the community, and they're very conscious of like we need to do more so taking risk capital and investing it in the community for the greater good of our mission of helping underserved kids.
That makes sense.
So you know, the Scott Sellers and Tom Kleines the world who have you know, helped Sandy lead this thing.
They value what we do.
Their networks and our donor base are very in tune with what our efforts are. So this wasn't a play of like, hey, we're going to fix the city's golf course, that's a byproduct of it. But to use this incredible facility for the next fifteen years to you know, develop our programs even further. That's what made the most sense.
And then the byproduct of the community benefit, the golf world benefit, the agronomy, the sustainability, all of that are really you know, they fall in line after that first kind of pillar, which is our kids, right.
So you know, to you know, our donor bases a lot of resourcial people.
They listen when we ask or or educate them, and in this case it made sense, right and you know, our leadership myself included, was able to get you know, some of our donors and some of the first time people to really buy into the concept of how important this site is for us in the long term from a growth perspective, and then understanding that you know, it does have community value and that's why it got done, you know, and the park and rec you know, and
a lot of times municipalities take it on the chin, right, I mean, the city has Sharp Park and Lincoln and there's always a lot of you know, there can be you know, negative things saying about those facilities.
Well, they've been a partner of ours for twenty years.
They've shown that Harding Park can work, right, It's hosted major championships, They've taken good care of that golf course, and as Josh alluded to, they are capable, right, And so this whole concept of new clubhouse, new lease investment, they were all in on this too, and they value this just as much as we do. And kind of the stars are aligned, you know, you know, one off, but it's it's definitely repeatable around the country, right, But there has to be community leaders to get behind it,
and the synergies have to be there. And then I like the fact of a community grassroots effort, you know, addressing problems in the local society that was the selling point here, not like hey, we're going to fix up a golf course, right, There's a community aspect to it which really resonated with people that are willing to invest their money to, you know, for the better betterment of the community.
People listening and they've they've seen the content we put out on the firepit channels. The folks are dying to play this golf course. And obviously the course is ready went in to can be upen to the public. Kind of hinges on the clubhouse being finished. They've had some supply chain delays for those who are hoping to book a tea time to dan. What is your best guess and when the doors are going to open to the public.
Yeah, you know, that's definitely been a moving target.
You know, we initially were talking, you know, targeting both golf course and clubhouse this fall. You know, sometimes they around October November. There's been some things out of our control related to the city rebuilding the clubhouse, and that continues to get moved, pushed a little bit. I think the public is playing golf in this golf course, you know, if not in January, you know, early February, it shouldn't be more than you know, we're airing right now in
early December. I would say sixty days is probably the back end, but hopefully more like thirty or forty five days. And we'll communicate to the greater public when we do have a definitive date of when we're going to open it. And then it's worth noting you know, we've we have invested a lot of money in the property. We want the city and their gardeners to take good care of it, and so we're going to be very conscious of how
much traffic we put on the golf course. You know, in the early state ages, we won't don't want to take a step back just by having too many people play the course, So we're going to there'll be a little balancing act of like what's the right number of rounds versus you know, the excessive demand we assume we're going to experience when we first do open.
Another question is how much is it going to cost? And again the city kind of controls that, but the talking to folks yesterday when I was on the golf course, it seems like the residence fee that that's capped right, that can only go up two dollars a year, So it's going to be in the mid twenties for city residents and for non residents it sounds like a target somewhere in the mid to high forties. Greens fee is what's on the table. Does that sound right?
Yeah, that's probably accurate, you know, to your point, the part code protects the rates for the residents. You know, so the residents are going to you know, a regular San Francisco resident's going to play the course for twenty twenty five bucks a weekday weekend, extremely affordable, especially by San Francisco standards.
I think we'll probably start the non resident rate around forty.
Dollars weekday, maybe fifty weekend, you know, and we do have we can adjust that up or down with that that part of the rates for the non resident, so we'll let supply and demand kind of take care of that. But you know, in San Francisco, to come play a place like this, you know, for forty dollars to me by California Bayry standards is great value, and that'll kind of be the starting point.
Yeah, And it's also just part of the experience, right if you go play the golf course, you're probably going to walk around the park, you might go have lunch on the beach like it. It's because of where it's situated. It becomes part of a day. It's not just drive to a golf course, drive away like I think people will be encouraged to explore the park and the whole neighborhood there, and it's another win for San Francisco, like
like Matt was talking about. So, you know, Jay, this Matt allude to the fact that you donate your services as a Northern California resident, someone who just loves loves golf.
I know it was.
Really emotionally satisfying to be part of this project. It's also, you know, a chance to spotlight your talents. And I think when people play these greens and play this golf course, they're gonna they're going out to know more about your design philosophy and what else you're working on. Can you give listeners kind of a little look into where you are in your career, because there's never been a more interest in golf course architecture and I think this is gonna be a big moment for you.
Yeah.
Well, you guys have done a great job of kind of documenting the process and getting that out there. And I think that's great and it's fun to kind of let people behind the curtain a little bit to see what goes into designing and building a golf course. So we're really grateful for all your efforts on that front. But no, I mean, it really is a once in
a lifetime opportunity. You know, I grew up playing municipal golf courses, starting out at a part three, you know, moving up to an executive nine, then the Big nine, then the Big eighteen, and so the idea of crafting a golf course where people are going to play their first round of golf and having it be something more
than just a field, right. You know, so many people get started in golf and the facility that they first swing a club on, you know, maybe they're hitting off mats there, may may not be terf you know, they're certainly not likely to have a compelling architecture behind it. Here, we've got a situation where you've got this unbelievable facility right in the in the heart of the city in Golden Gate Park. It's been a treasured part of the
community for decades. Many people will play their first round to golf there, and you've got you know, the soils that are perfect for golf, that are so rare to find that you know, people like Mike Kaiser, you know, scour the ends of the earth to find this type of saying. You're within a few hundred yards from the ocean, You've got these magical cypress t is. The topography that's
out there is just ideal for golf. It's really exciting and compelling to you know, ascend up to the top of the knoll and then look out and get the big view and then drop down and see So it's just really such a dream opportunity and the connection to the first t that it was easy to get behind.
You know.
My hope is that people will come and have a great time and say, wow, this was fun. You know, we talked about it earlier, but the key word is fun. And and you know, with any project that I take on, my goal is to try and there's kind of two facets. One help the client achieve their goals and two to
try to maximize the potential of the site. And you know, I think I think we did a great job on those fronts in terms of, you know, the site had so much potential with the sand that was there, the topography that was there, It just needed a you know kind of to peel back some of the layers and expose some of those areas and take full advantage of it. And so again, just such a dream opportunity and really lucky that we had a great team to help us get there.
Let me just jump in there because I know we were going to use this podcast, as you know, to make sure that some of the stuff that we've been documenting isn't everything right. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that we do have and we you know that
we still can't share everything. But some of the people that were a part of that team, and some of the people that are going to continue to be a part of the team to maintain and run and operate this facility obviously deserve some talk and credit and mentioned. So I know you brought into several other shapers. We would see them out there when we were out there. Can you talk about who you brought in and what they brought to the team and to the party, so to speak.
Yeah, that's a great point. We really want to make sure that they get their due. And it's a big team, right, So I'll talk about the shapers, and then maybe Josh can talk about some of the folks on the irrigation side and other side. And then there's people on dance team as well that have been there every step of the way that really deserves some kudos as well. But you know, from the shaping side of things, one of the real challenges with this project was that we didn't
get approval to start the project till February fifteenth. We started on March sixth, and we knew that we were trying to get our grassing done by June, and so we had this really tiny window. And you know, as
you alluded to earlier, construction's never been busier. People are booked up all over the place and whatnot, and so we were super lucky to be able to kind of recruit three talented guys who came in in different little spurts, and you know, they each worked in different parts of the golf course, and so there's a fun little game to play to try to figure out who did what. I'm not sure anybody could do that. Hopefully we did
our job. If they can't figure that out, but our our shaping law firm of Carlton, Hochstein and Nelson is very very talented. So Justin Carlton was somebody who I had never met before. I knew of him. We have a couple of mutual friends, and we were in a state in the middle of the project where we needed some shaping help on short notice. Justin is based in Florida. I called him on a Wednesday and he was here
on a Thursday. So that's a pretty pretty good indication of how special the project was to people in the golf world when they heard about sand and ocean and topography and all that that they jump on a plane within twelve hours to get here to help out.
And so he.
Brought great talent, very creative ideas, and just kind of the perfect how can I help attitude to the project. Brett Hostein is somebody that I've worked with down at Santa Anna before, and he's uber talented, particularly as it relates to kind of the bunkers and the details of some of our sandscapes. He was kind of our bunker
and sandscape guru. Guy came back in and touched all those up and has a really brilliant eye for some of those things and helped us out tremendously and he kind of came at multiple periods of the project to help us out and added great value. And then Robert Nelson's another guy with Brett's local. He's a Bay Area guy. And Robert's another guy who had ties to the Bay areas from the area, has got family in the area.
He was in North Carolina, but we were able to get him to come out and and he dove in and provided great value and creativity really excelled at kind of the finish it finished work and would get out there was hand ranking all sorts of areas and and just uber committed to all the fine details about everything. And so each each one of those guys really brought
great creativity ideas. You know, this project is so much better because of their involvement and we just couldn't be happier to have them as part of the team.
Josh, before you get into your people, tell the listeners why rescue You know that's a rare and special grass and people identify it with Scotland and maybe Ireland, and you know championship level of golf courses in the Open Rota and that sort of thing. But why fscue on on this golf course?
Well, from our perspective, you know, when we start talking to clients about their project. You know, grass selections one of the big key factors, right, depending on where you're at. And I have personal connection to find Vescue with you know, between band in Dan's and Chambers Bay and my time spent there. But the reality is we want the best grass for each specific site that we work. You know, if it's somewhere in southern California, it's probably going to
be Bermuda grass or Coodia grass. You know up here there's a lot of different churfs we can grow depending on the specific location, you know, the microclimates in the Bay area in northern California.
With this specific site.
You know, fescue is such a unique animal and that it needs well drained soils, It needs a low traffic environment, you know. But the benefits of find fescue are you know, low chemical use, low you know, low input, overall, great drought tolerance once established, low fertility.
Once established, all these things.
Right, So when you think about City of San Francisco Golden Gate Park, you know, overall sustainability, you sit here and you start to have all of these boxes checked, right for what fescue can provide. And then we started looking at Okay, it's on fifty to one hundred feet of dune sand, It's in a cool, moderate climate where something like bermuda grass would not thrive. It's going to be a walking only facility with relatively low you know,
cart traffic things like that. You're going, Okay, Well, it checks all the boxes for if we can plant it, and it also checks all the boxes for if we should plant it.
And so.
And then you know, from like Jay's perspective and my perspective, we're sitting here on we know how great it plays, and so you know, you're always looking to those like unicorn sites where it's going to work because it does play so great. And again, you know we cliche of the stars aligning, it really did around this turf selection.
And I really hope and I believe that this is a was a great decision, you know, for the for the long term and future of this property as it relates to what you know, Record Park can do with it, and and it really lines up with their mantra and their ideals around how they want to manage their golf courses in the city as well. So it just I mean it fit in every aspect.
It's great for beginners, right because there's nothing more discouraging when you're learning how to play golf and you kind of top a shot or you don't catch it right and it travels about six feet just stops dead and long grass, and then the next shots even harder because you're in this thick rough. And I mean it's kind of user friendly for people who are learning the game, or maybe seniors who don't get a lot of launch. Like it seems like that that has the benefits.
Saw a few of those the other day, you know, bottom two grooves on the golf club, and it still worked out. So as far as as far as the team goes, I think Jay, you know, Jay put it really well.
As relates to the shapers, it was really the same on the contractor's side.
I mean a lot of the projects that we're working on, you know, are two and three years out because frankly speaking, that's what it takes to get a team together generally. The fact that this team came together and literally a matter of two to three weeks is I still don't totally see how it worked out that way. It really was a project that was meant to happen. But you know,
the shapers, I'll just really quickly with those guys. I mean the fact that they were able to come in on the rotation that they did give us, you know, and lend us their talents on that rotation. All three bought into the overall vision that Jay had and the concept, and then put their own little micro unique spin on
you know, how they saw things unfolding. I think it just all came together for such an awesome, awesome golf experience and it's it's unique and interesting and different in you know, how each shaper puts their talent on things, but also it all came together and provides this really seamless journey through the property.
So credit to those guys, Credit to Jay how that came together.
As far as the contractor side, I kind of started having conversations with a couple of guys that I knew, you know, we're local and would probably have interest in this, going back to probably like August September of the year prior, just said, hey, I think we have a project. Pretty sure. We're not going to know until you know, like two three weeks before we're supposed to start. Can you guys, can you guys work with us on this, and thankfully they were able to. We had to get creative with
the earthwork. We actually used a great here, a local contractor excavation contractor to help us with kind of the removal of all the organic soil that was on top of the sand, Durantaventables, and I had some relationships with them, kind of going back to my time working here at
local private clubs, and they were great. You know, I'm still marveled that they didn't just walk off the property when we got the rain that we got in March and getting equipment stuck and everything else, and everybody just kind of marched forward with the great attitude and really, you know, hey, that piece of equipment isn't working.
Let's try a new one, you know, let's try a different one. We did that about four or.
Five times and ended up just quietly and happily getting to the end of that part of it. And then you know, a couple of we called them in you know, project MVPs. But our ariation contractor is is kind of a local legend, Brett Staples Park Consultants and based out of Pacific Grove.
Literally it's him and two guys, and he runs.
A great little company and helps out a lot of local golf courses here, you know, ranging from the Cyperus points of the world to you know, this city of Walling Creek. So he's kind of all over the place and does all different levels and really somebody of high integrity and honesty and work ethic and just one of those people that's rare to find these days that's going to operate really well on a handshake, you know, And those are the kind of people that we were able
to get involved in this. And everybody's attitude was phenomenal. It all ended in a place where everybody was very excited about it, happy about it. The energy never got We never got to a negative point in the project. It was always everybody enjoyed coming here from the first day of.
The last day.
And that's a really special thing. If you've ever been a part of a construction project of any magnitude, that generally doesn't happen there's always a low point, and we never really had that. And I attribute that to the group that was brought together to work on this, from the contractors to the shapers to j and Dan being an awesome client. You know, the city it was, it was a really special thing to be a part of.
So and I also want to mention, you know, a couple of strategic partners in this that you know, have just really helped us out along the way to Turf Star, our local Toro distributor. You know, I can't say enough about them. They've come out. And then there's even things that Dan and Jay don't know about that they've been able to help me with, you know, just dropping off mower so we needed, or coming out to adjust how to cut you know, I'm in the area, do you
need anything. Definitely one of those where you know, unsung on that front. You know, there's been a lot of community that's come together on this thing to make it happen. And I'm sure I'm forgetting names, but try to mention them all at some point.
Maybe uh, West Coast Turf and Ross Mitchell, Chris Mitchell, you know.
Yep, yep, yeah, Russ and Chris on the on the irrigation design side. And then yeah, definitely the West Coast Turf guys coming out getting their hyde receiaters stuck in the sand.
Multiple times, trying to get into places that I was trying.
To get them to and again the list is very long, but point being, everybody did it with the right attitude, the right energy and knew the goal.
There's a lot of people, Dan that are making you look really smart, aren't they.
Yeah?
No, you know it's interesting. You know, we're finally at the end game, which is so rewarding. You know, but going back several years ago, you know, as our lease was up and we're thinking do we want to stay in the golf operating business? And you know, we did a lot of modeling fiscally right, and I mean operating golf course isn't our first line of business, right, it's but we're in it because of the kids, right, It's
an important strategy. But you know, working on fiscal models of and coming up with a new creator of lease agreement and could we fundraise in and you know, our leadership, Scott Sollers, you know, just kind of taking the reins and you know we fundraised nearly three million in a matter of months, right, I mean that just doesn't happen that often unless you have a strong brand and strong
people behind it. You know, gentlemen, Chris Williams, who sits on the nonprofit board, you know, is there every step of the way from a fiscal perspective. So it definitely takes a village. It helps that it's a great village, and you know, at the end of the day, we're so excited to get this thing done and can't wait for everybody to see it. You know, it's such a massive win. Dan, you might want to share a little bit.
You know, when people come out to the golf course when it is open for public play, they're probably going to run into Joe and Riley. You want to talk a little bit about them and we can all share what they bring to the table.
Yeah, you know, we have a we kept staff there, you know, even though we're closed, and those guys have done everything from you know, helping pick weeds or you know, fixing fences that fall down in the night to like trying to get ready for to operate a new business that's going to be radically different than the business before, right. I mean we anticipate probably you know, forty five thousand rounds.
We'll do excessive food and beverage, big first tea programs. Right, So those guys have been there with Jay and Josh every day. You know, doing daily tasks that maybe they haven't signed up for, and in the meantime they get ready to kind of open up and run a whole new business. So they've been rock stars as well through
the project. Yeah, as Jos's alluded to, there's just too many names to to, you know, to mention, but we've been very fortunate to have the people that have been involved and have supported this project.
You know, A natural question that comes out of this project is what's next. I mean, golf fans know that there's been this movement to save Shark Park and take it back to the Alistair McKenzie roots. I saw Richard Harris out at Golden Gate the other day. He's been the driving force behind Sharp Park for a long time. I mean, is this a blueprint perhaps, because I mean there's other city courses that need a lot of love, and like Golden Gate, they have great bones, they are
on great sites. They could be amazing destinations for public golf and oh, by the way, money makers for the city of San Francisco. But it would probably take more private investment and more collaboration. But is this maybe a prelude to some more ambitious projects locally?
You know, a few things, right, I mean, yet Harding get turned around, you know decades ago, right, hosting major championships. You have this project with Golden Gate Park. So a couple things are at play. Is one, the city of San Francisco in the Rerecon Park phil Ginsburg. They value their golf properties more than they ever had, even though from a budgetary standpoint, golf is such a small, you know, percentage of their overall budget. They're paying attention to it
more than ever. They value their assets more than ever. And then to show the private donors investment world, like, hey, this is possible and it has such a great positive impact on kids or the community. Those things are lining up pretty strongly. And so a lot of the detraction of like municipalities and like, you know, it doesn't make sense. All those things are kind of those negative side are kind of being overcome. So I would say, now more
than ever, you know, anything's possible. Those you know Lincoln Park and you know Sharp Parker two phenomenal public golf courses, right, but they are in need of infrastructure and other things. But Harding and now Golden Gate Park, you know absolutely a model that private public partnerships can work for the betterment of the community. It takes time and effort, but
you know, we'll see what happens from here. I'm cautiously optimistic that we might see more of these types of things happen, not only locally, but hopefully around the country.
Yes, it is, you know, this is. This is not you know, going back to Beth Page and Harding and Tory and then having it trickle down to places like Kiney Park or WP nine, goat Hill Park, Canal Shores, now Belmont and Richmond like this.
This is.
This is an ongoing thing. This is a real trend in golf. I this is you know, you don't. The good news here is this is yet another layer on top of this cake in which people can use as an example of what's possible if you have local leadership like John Ashworth or like someone like yourself, Dan or some like you know, a Sandy Tatum or someone who says, hold on, let's identify an issue, let's let's let's formulate a plan. Let's look around and see where this plan
and this process has benefited. Bobby Jones in Atlanta. You know, this is happening all over the place, and that's what's so cool and fun and exciting about this, And Jay you pointed out about how, you know, the par three course is a trend, but mostly that's happening at resorts where you got to pay a premium. That the really
cool thing about this being a par three course. Winter Park Nine's an executive Go Hill Park's an executive Belmont's kind of They went to a par three plus a version of of Tilling hass Old you know, old original, you know this is this is to me, what's the most exciting thing about this momentum and movement, the architecture and sustainability, the teamwork makes a dream work like right, Like,
isn't that what's what you like? That's why people moved heaven and Earth to be a part of this or stop and said how can I help or how because it is feeling like this this organic you know growth and why I say the true leaders in the game are people like yourselves, you know, and that are willing to actually do something for the good of the growth of the game as it relates to affordability, accessibility. Kids.
Yeah, I think you know again, that's what excited all of us to be part of this is that we saw that opportunity. We saw the impact that it would have on the on the community. The idea that you could have something that's equally as compelling as the sandbox at Sand Valley or the preserve abandoned and have it in a local community where people can get there on their bike or buy Ammuni bus. Right, those those things are are really exciting, And to your point, there are
other samples around the country. We're good and has happened, and public private partnerships have worked, and hopefully this is
the tip of the iceberg that there. You know, whether it's you think about just about every major city in the country has their parking rec system or whichever umbrella it's under, is going to have multiple golf courses, and odds are they're lacking in infrastructure, they're maybe not architecturally compelling, maybe they're not thriving from a business standpoint, and hopefully the light bulb will go on that there's opportunity there
and with the right people involved, that dramatic transformation can happen, and that transformation is going to positively impact generations of golfers.
And just to speak to the value that Dan mentioned earlier, not to pick on Peter Hay, but it is kind of the nearest Part three that's been redone recently. I'm not seventy five bucks, and it's on a tight, little cramped site. Half the holes are just a little knockdown, you know, half swing sixty degree wedges. And I mean Golden Gate is a big, expansive piece of property. It's almost triple the size the footprint of Peter Hay. And you know, the first hole, I hit six iron and it'
st uphill a little into the breeze. I think it was one fifty five on the ground, playing about one seventy five. Like you have to swing away at Golden Gate a few times, and there's some you know, I think the last hole maybe hit an eight iron, like you know, it's playing about one fifty five. I mean there's some meaty par threes. It's not you're not just bunting it around like sometimes you feel like, you know, the cradle at Piners is wonderful. Everyone loves it. But
again it's a lot of little holes. I mean, Golden Gate feels like like a big ballpark for a Part three, and you have to hit a lot of different shots. And because the you know, the holes are long, you're gonna miss some greens, and then you have some really fun short game options. So and you know, to get that much of a golf course for forty bucks, I think is incredible, you know, Alan.
To your point, I mean, you know, there's a lot of phenomenal private clubs in our neighborhood, right, I mean some of the top twenty courses, top fifty, top hunter courses in the world. You know, from my lens, you could take any of the nine holes at Golden Gate Park, any single one of those, drop them over at the neighboring private club as a part three on those courses and it would fit in perfect and be a very.
Good hole at any of those courses. Right. So to me that from that lens, boy, it's just phenomenal nine you know, great little holes, right yeah.
I mean, people who don't know the geography of San Francisco, Harding Park, the Olympic Club, San Fransco, Golf Club, Lake merc said, they're all clustered in on the western edge of the Cow Club exactly kind of western edge of San Francisco. And to get the Golden Gate Park golf course, it is about what ten minute drive up the coast.
I mean it's so I think you'll get a lot of that spill over play where you know, a guy goes and plays col Club, he wants a little more golf, but he's not he's not ready for another eighteen holes. Like why just jump jump in your tesla and drive over to to maybe a range rover if you're pretty incorrect, and you just just head over to Goldenate Park. And I mean it's a perfect sort of afternoon stroll when
you just need a little more golf. So it is going to be an incredible community resource and the first tea kids are going to be the big beneficiaries. But I think hardcore golfers are still going to go over there and play it and see it.
From cal Club. They're probably actually going to need to take an uber the.
You know, I think I got some time. I wasn't there on this last outing, but I was there a couple of weeks ago when the course was playable and we hit some shots and we met up with some of the locals. Haley, who started her own women's group, who lives around the corner and has played it for twenty years, doesn't have her own handicap because it just does never play eighteen holes. She can now eventually start registering scores, which is cool, but she's so excited to
get back there out there. Gary Giubeni. Gary Giubeni, who's been playing this golf course since he was five years old with his dad and played in the in the in the the family event I guess at Golden Gate Park And for him, he was admittedly a little bummed to have the course closed, but because you guys allowed him the occasional access and he got to walk around and be a part of the process, and he, you know, said, summarize the whole thing as like incredible or amazing, you know,
and being able to watch him now you know he's you know, older in age, he's gone away from Golden Gate Park now coming back to me like that's that's
the most kind of coolest exciting thing about this. In addition to the kids, and we talked to Abe, who you know, made his first part on the second hole, and and Haley had her first hole in one on what is now the eighth hole, and can't wait to see if she can have a hole in one on now what is now the eight Like the locals are just like champing at the bit to get back out there and experience what is essentially a new golf course for them. What a gift.
It is a true local spot, right, it is got you know, it is a nor Cal version of that.
Right. It's all about the people that live locally.
There's definitely be a new new segment or sector of the population that are going to want to come see it, and hopefully we'll be able to exceed everybody.
It's gonna be the only thing bad about Goligate Park is it's only nine olds. It needs to be like twenty seven. You got to get more park, Dan, get more parks.
Right, Yeah.
My line is, yeah, you can go play two through eight anytime you want.
I do want to jump in and say, you know, you talked about first Holling ones out there. We're having some preview play out there a little bit, and the last forty eight hours or so, I've got I've gotten
to witness three of them. So we had the first one on number two Saturday morning, and then on Tuesday we had one first swing of the day on whole number one, get up, first swing of the day, Jack knocks it and the beauty of it is that you know, he hits it, you know, fifteen feet left, it goes ten feet past the hole and then it just trickles
back in. And that was one that you could You didn't know it was in or out until you got up, so you had to wait until you walked all the way up the hill and peeped in the hole and saw that it was there. And then a good friend of mine, Jason Bruno lynks Nation on Twitter. He flew in from South Florida to join us, and he makes one twenty minutes before sunset on eight where he throws it beyond the hole and then it just trickles, and you know, it takes ten seconds for the ball to
move ten feet and trickle back in. And then by the time it goes in, you know, everybody's you know, and cartwheels and high five and and bear hugging on the tee. It's it's it's pretty fun. So if you need to make an eighth call me up. I'm happy to escort you around.
Golden Gates at the pins.
Dude, Josh, I just talked for a second because you know, we've been simultaneously working Golden Gate Park and Passa Tempo, Santa Cruz to San Francisco, restoring Alistair McKenzie greens to re you know, renovating this little local nine hole part three course. And you've you know, you've had, You've really been on you know, boots on the ground at Golden Gate Park, but also consulting with and and and being another set of eyes for Justin Mandon and Jim Urbina
at pass Tempo. My world's collided. As I was at Positi come rolling up in a cart. I was like, wait, where did I take a wrong turn? That's Josh Lewis in a cart at pos Tempo when I was, you know,
just saw you at Golden Gate Park. But to watch simultaneously these two projects happening at two public facilities on two very opposite ends of the spectrum in you know, price point business model degrees of difficulty, Like, how crazy has it been for you to be going sort of back and forth from these two and watching all of this unfold? Uh, you know, in kind of your your neck of the woods.
I've had I've had a pretty good year. It's been a pretty it's.
Been a pretty good for me.
How do you top this?
No, I mean it's it's I kind of you know, this has been a twenty five years of doing this and it's been a it's been a pretty awesome experience this year to have you know, a client like like Dan in the first tea and be able to be a part of this project, work with a buddy and Jay and you know, put something out there for the
local community in the first tea. And then and then on the like you said, on the other end of the spectrum, to be a part of something so special a posse and you know, be able there to to support one of my best friends in Justin and you know,
I'm I'm pretty grateful for both of those opportunities. But yeah, I think the ties that bind writer the public access and you know where Mary and Holland started out at past Tiempo and wanted to make sure that that remained a facet of that business forever, you know, and then to look at the way that you know, that's really the primary goal of Golden Gate is is you know, the first t Outer Richmond Outer sunset, you know, twenty five bucks.
You know, that's that's that's truly growing the game in that regard to But.
Yeah, two of the most special things I've ever gotten to do, and I got to do them at the same time in the same year is pretty incredible.
That's awesome.
And I was just reading on well a named golf website that had this big write up of the Tree Farm and Old Barnwell, there's two courses in South Carolina that are geographically pretty close to each other, and it was an interesting article. They sound like cool places, but ninety nine point nine nine percent of the readers will never get to play either one because they're private. And so it's kind of like, what's the point, you know, why even why am I even reading the story because
it doesn't it's not applicable to the golfing public. But Pasta Tempo and of course Golden Gate are open everybody. And that's just something that you have to shout from the rooftops because it's rare in this game. You know, the most celebrated courses, the ones that people obsess over all the lists, all the you know, the the sunset photos on on Twitter. I mean, most people can't play them,
which is obnoxious. And so the fact that that you know, Post Tempo is the top one hundred course everyone's going to get to play, and now Golden Gate is gonna be its own this magnet. I just think it's such a it's so meaningful. It means a lot to me and match to spotlight these stories. And obviously it's that passion that that drew the three of you guys into this, this project at Golden Gates. So hat tip to y'all
for you know, flying the flag for public golf. It's really it's never been more important.
Hey, Dan, I'm curious from a First Tea perspective, and I'm honestly don't know. And you've alluded to the fact that you know, generally you guys, don't you know, manage facilities, right, You kind of utilize facilities as these hubs of opportunities to reach reach kids and have an impact on the
greater good. Do you think from a blueprint standpoint? And back to that question, do you think First T, you know, the national First T has got an I on this and this will ultimately end up impacting any other First te facilities going forward? Like, is this is this something within First T that is that you think might happen more or or or or to be determined?
Good question, Matt, I mean, so you know, you take one hundred and fifty plus chapters around the country, there are First Chapters already operating golf courses, right, you know, it's not rare to have a municipal facility look to the local First Tea after it's growing and say, hey, here's one of our golf courses, why don't you take this over?
So that precedent's been around for a while.
What will get people excited for this particular project is leveraging what First he is doing in their own community to raise private funds to invest in those properties for the long term success of the chapter.
Right.
I think that's the added layer here is where we've used our donor base who are already supporting First t and they understood, like, this is a play for us to control this course and access at an important program
site for the next fifteen years. That synergy, I think is going to really you know, show for the First Team network that this is as possible, you know, So we hope, you know, it helps the groundswell of you know, the First Teas are successful right now and the growth is there and the demand is off the charts, right, so hopefully with you know, community grassroots efforts to raise money.
You can see you know, projects like you know Brettschneider did in Richmond, and hear what we've done in in San Francisco that can happen in a Sacramento or a Seattle or you know other first tea hubs around the country.
You know, the the National Links Trust obviously, you know, I think Jay you were on a you were possibly on a panel recently Steve Leary, the mayor of winter Park nine at the time when that pro you know got put through and went from losing two hundred and fifty grand a year to now being a money maker, like you know what you know, Will Smith obviously being a you know, one of these people worth mentioning as a true leader trying to rally a community and private
you know, funding and getting the effort to try to like make a difference. Is there best practices to be shared? Here are their tips or thought? You know John Ashworth gets you know, pinged constantly.
What do I do?
How do I do it? How can I do this? How can I do what you're doing? I have a local course that needs help. What do you guys have? Little things that you will ultimately end up sharing with others on what can or should be done to make a difference.
Yeah, we talked about that at the National Links Trust. They have an annual symposium on municipal golf and they have different panels and I was fortunate enough to serve on the architecture panel two years ago and then and then back just a month ago, and that was one of the things that we talked about, is you know, how do you pull it off? And so some of the things that we talked about were, you know, relationships right.
So obviously Dan being at Olngate Park and with the first Tee for ten years, he's built those relationships within the city. So when it came time to work on a lease negotiation, they knew who that they who they were talking to. So identifying the right team members who have the right relationships, I think is critical. And then
you know, Dan can probably speak to this. But then if you are trying to put a project together and a plan together, you know, trying to identify a team that's going to be all in and invested right and is in it for the right reasons. Oftentimes that's finding people who have a tie to that community, whether they live there locally or grew up in the area, or who's going to pour their heart and soul into the project and give it everything that they've got and pull
everything together. So and you know, there's so many aspects to it, whether it's the operations or the fundraising, or the marketing, or the design and the construction. There's all those things. But at the end of the day, stuff gets done because of people, and so it's identifying the right people and setting them up for success, I think is the key.
Yean, Yeah, I think Jay hit it on the head right. One.
We've had a long standing positive relationship with the wreck and Park right they love us as an operator. We see this as a you know, important strategy in the long term. And then you have from the funding perspective, our long term donors, you know, have invested for the last twenty years, so reinvesting makes sense to them, especially if it made sense for us from a programmatic standpoint. And it's not easy to accomplish, but it is doable to Jay's point, if the right people are in the room.
So you're right, Matt, it does take people from the local community to band together, you know, look at things very strategically and smartly and do some diligence, but ultimately, if you can get the right people in the room, you know, things like this can't happen.
I'll just follow up real quick and just say from city side of things or from the municipality side of things, what you want to try and identify as who's the person on that side of the table that can get that can get you to the wind right because municipalities are inherently set up with layers and layers of red tape and all these different processes, whether it's RFPs or things like that that are just barriers to success in
so many ways. And so identifying the person within the municipality who can be your partner, who can who can navigate those waters, who can find the way to get to yes as opposed to listing the twelve ways that we're going to end up at no, and and that that person is as critical as anybody.
I think I think too.
One thing and working with a couple of different municipalities is some things are transferable. You know, some things that Dan has been able to do as City of San Francisco will work, you know, regardless of the municipality. But each city is going to have very specific things that are unique to them that you need to understand and be flexible in working with, you know, figuring those things out.
You know.
I think that's one of the things that Dan's done a really good job of with City San Francisco. And we've had this conversation quite a bit through this project. Is you know, this is this is just how it needs to be done. This is you know, I know there's an ideal or I know there's a way we'd like to do this, but this is the way we need to do it. And understanding those key things depending on which city you're working with, I think is really important.
Each region of the country is going to have different priorities and you know, learning, learning their system, being a master of their system.
This is so yeah, it is. I mean, Dan, you said the key is to get the right people. I think it's obvious to the listeners like you guys are the right people for this job. You know, we've we've been talking about Golden Gate Park going back to February. Now now it's here and it's just a delight. I think everyone who's listened to this podcast is going to want to go play it. I would encourage them to Do, so it's it's just a really special thing and it's been fun for us to be a part of it.
Seems like a good time to draw this podcast to close. Anyone have any final thoughts before we release the listeners.
I just want to say that I think it's cool from an architectural standpoint that Jay, you know, I know, you know, you've been flying below the radar. You're in your early forties, You've worked on some big projects, You've done some really cool stuff. Some of it's been private, or some of it's been under the you know, under
the in the shadow of other big name architects. And you know, we've seen what happened with Keith rev and Riley Johns at WP nine and then they did the short Course at fors Do, and we've seen you know what you know, Gil Hans did with the Cradle, and obviously Bill and Bennett to preserve, and then Dave Accident and Rod Whitman, you know, and Keith at Shorty. You know, the littlest things can somew sometimes have the biggest impact.
And I'm really excited for you. I've I've really enjoyed the walking talks that we've all had out there I'm gonna miss I said our text thread of this group is one of my favorite things. I wanted to keep going just because this project is over. I want us to all keep in touch. I'm going to miss you. Guys already have separation anxiety. I just it's just, you know, the sense of discovery for me, whether it's travel or you know, going and seeing a new course or meeting
a new architect. What Todd Quintino is doing at Canal Shores is another thing.
You know.
I haven't really met and talked to Ty. Can't wait to see like these little projects can have. It can be the biggest stones in this in this in this pond of golf. And the reason why I support the growth of the game, or say anti rollbackers, is be simply because the game has given me so much. It's given everybody on this call so much, everybody listening so much.
We want to you know, it makes better people. What Golden Gate Park is going to do is help create that camaraderie and that culture and that community aspect in which we all feel like we're a part of something and watching all of this continue to have generational impact on the greater good of not just golfers, but as like first he says, people, that's why all of this matters, and why it's so feel good and why it's just
fun to be a small part of it. Congratulations to you guys, Congratulations to everyone involved, Congratulations to the people who who put their money where their mouth is and and and I can't wait to continue to watch it just sort of uh, you know, thrive and survive and flourish and make an impact. So thank you, Thank you for letting us be a small part of this.
Is an easy solution to separation anxiety. Come on up, I'm out.
Yeah, yeah, we got a whole other year of positive Temple automatically puts me in the area. So this is uh, it's going to happen, and.
I look forward to it.
Thanks you guys, much appreciated.
Thanks, thanks so much for all you've done. It's really been special to watch you guys document and your storytelling is is really unparalleled, and so it's great for us to be able. You know, we knew this was going to be something special, but we didn't know how to share it with the world, and so to be able to have you guys do that as meant the world to us, so we appreciate all that you guys.
Do, watching you taking your designs and layering them over that dirt, and and now what we're going to unveil in this next part where it actually becomes something real like your drawings themselves.
I hope.
Dan, this is my suggestion, take Jay's drawings, blow them up, post your size, and put them in that new clubhouse when it's gonna avail, because they are so cool to just look at and see and then go actually watch the ball do what he kind of shows it's going to do.
It's amazing.
It's really cool.
Jay. Are you gonna charge me for that.
That he won't donate? That's maybe a Burger dog or something.
All right, well, great stuff, y'all. This has been another fire Drill podcast or Matt Janella, Josh Lewis, Jay Blasei, and Dan Burke. This is Allen Schiffnook. Thanks for listening, and we'll be back in your ear soon. Definitely go to firepay Collective dot com. You can watch the videos, read the stories, and get either even more immersed in what's happening at Golden Gate Park golf Course. That's the end of this podcast. Goodbye, that big gun.
I played the wind, made a fortune. When my ship came in, I ran the table, never thought I could fall down.
The winter time hit me like a cannon in the ball.
And now I can't shape this losing streak. Every road I take it is a dead end street. I got thoughts in my head, can't get them out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about.
I got thoughts in my head, can't
Get them out, Trying not to think what I'm thinking about.