Some folks have responded, it's his money, he can do what he wants. Sure, that's totally true. It is his money he can set on fire. However, where it becomes more complex is if he's betting so much and losing so much that he has to chase money, and that leads to complete reshifting of the entire professional golf landscape, which might or might not be exactly what happened. Then Fill's private gambling becomes a keen interest to the entire golf world.
That got dats my head.
Can't get him, joh And not the thing what I'm thinking about. Can't get him out, John, Not the thing what I'm thinking about?
Hello? Is this allon Chipnook? Back for another The Fire Drill podcast. I'm in Los Angeles covering the US Women's Amateur Championship at Bell Country Club. Matt Janella is with us. He is in Ireland about to play in the Father's Son at Waterville. But we've reconvened. We've reconnoitered because we have the world exclusive first excerpt on Billy Walter's much anticipated autobiography, Gambler. Matt, you've seen the material. What do you think?
I mean? You know, I've been around the golf you know, businesses as long as you have right, almost kind of came in the same time. It's been no you know, big secret that Phil, you know, is a betting man. He bets on you know, he bets on himself in the sense that that's the way he plays the game. Uh, there's there's a good jillion and you know rumors about his his off course gambling. We've heard of him betting on the Ravens to win the Super Bowl. You know,
we don't hear a lot about the losses. We certainly don't know the nitty gritty. I remember at a Golf Digest photo shoot when we were at the bridges in Rancho Santa Fe and he rolled up in this black suv you know, sat in the parking lot for what seemed to be you know, upwards of a half an hour. It felt more, probably like two hours. We were just all sitting there waiting for him to get out of the car. You know, he was making his bets for
the day. He then proceeded to show us the bulletproof glass that he had in his car, and we were like, why would why would Phil Micholson need bulletproof glass in see like what exactly is going on here? Like it just it was just a really ran them, you know,
situation and odd quite frankly. But when you read this book excerpt and you hear about the details of what he was doing and how he was doing it, and the numbers, not only the numbers of bets, but the numbers associated to the financial component.
Of all this. When the number is a B and not an M, yeah, well let's let's go to the numbers. Let's go to the numbers. Because people haven't seen this yet.
It Billy Walters was Phil Nicholson's gambling partner. People think he was his bookie, but in reality they had this partnership and Billy, as he tells it, wanted access to Phil's books, including some offshore ones that he said had four hundred thousand dollars limits per game per bet, and because Billy was too good and he would get cut off by his own his own book makers, or they'd given really low limits like twenty k. But Phil was such a pigeon, He's like, okay, let's let's let's go
into business. So Billy was also a meticulous record keeper because offshore betting, interstate gambling. You know, these are gray areas that especially ten or more years ago. And so he kept track of everything, so and he paid taxes, and he had a whole fleet of lawyers to kind of help him navigate the legality of this stuff. So this is These are some of the numbers from Billy Walters. This is the period between twenty ten and twenty and fourteen.
He says, Phil bet one hundred and ten thousand dollars to win one hundred thousand dollars a total of one thousand, one hundred and fifteen times on eight hundred and fifty eight occasions, Phil bet two hundred and twenty thousand dollars to win two hundred thousand. When you do the math, that comes to three hundred and eleven million dollars just on those bets. According to Billy, in tw eleven, Michelson made three one hundred and fifty four bets, an average
of nine per day. And he says on June twenty second, twenty eleven, Phil made forty three bets on Major League Baseball games, losing one hundred and forty four thousand dollars. And in that period that Billy's talked about twenty ten to fourteen, Micholson made over seven thousand wages on football, basketball, and baseball. And this is what you're alluding to, Matt. This is what Billy says. I'm reading from the book now based on our relationship, when I've learned from others.
In all, Phil wagered a total of more than one a billion dollars during the past three decades. That's a billion with a B. Now, Billy's not privy to the wins and losses, but he estimates that Phil has lost in the neighborhood one hundred million dollars from from all those bets. I mean that that's real money, because what you know in the book, Billy quotes Phil as saying that Michelson's net worth is two hundred and fifty million dollars. It's probably grown since then. We know that we live
golf and everything else. But if you're worth two hundred and fifty k and or two hundred fifty million and you're losing one hundred million, that is a massive percentage of Even if you're worth half a billion, you're losing twenty percent of that just gone. These are pretty staggering numbers and it's like you said, Matt, I mean, it was part of Phil's brand has always been he's a gambler. Everyone kind of knew it, and it was whispered about, But this is the first time we have the real receipts.
In my biography, I had access to a source who saw some IRS documents and they put Phil's gambling losses at forty million dollars in that period twenty ten to fourteen. But that was just a snapshot. You know, Billy has more information, and clearly because he was the guy who was placing the bets and talking it over on a daily basis, and the volume is pretty incredible. When when you hear those numbers, what is your reaction?
It's staggering, I mean, And also, you know, it's kind of it's a little bit like Tiger. When we heard and started seeing the numbers of women that Tiger had been with or all the different sort of relationships he was managing, it was like, how could he manage all of that and still have that level of success on the golf course. To me, it's a very similar reaction. Certainly a different situation, but the wherewithal the game as we know it is so complex and complicated and hard
to you know, hard to master. You have to be right in your mind, in your spirit, in your soul and your convictions of of what you're capable of in order to execute on a day to day, week to week tour to tour like good. I mean, so that was kind of like my thought is like, oh my god, both of these guys have achieved this type of success while also juggling these what would be perceived to be shit storms off the course. It's, you know, in some
ways it's actually really impressive. I mean, that's that many bets, tracking all that stuff. I mean, that's that's a lot.
Well. I mean, yeah, it's remarkable that as you're saying that the two greatest golfers in the last you know, three decades had these these addiction issues. And you know, Phil has used the word addiction talking about his gambling. Tiger's been to treatment at least twice that we know of for addictions. And it always was that belief that to play the highest level of off you had to
have a clear mind. But maybe it's the opposite. Maybe they needed that constant rush and that that that that that energy and the juice and then when they got between the ropes, that's when everything kind of quieted down, and that was their respite from all the chaos. And maybe that's why they could lock in during those four hours. I don't know it. It does put to lie what you know, golfers have always said, you know, when I'm going through divorce, when I'm whatever, I couldn't. I couldn't.
I couldn't think about golf. I couldn't play golf. My father died. It affected my golf for two years. Like these guys just sailed through the chaos. It's remarkable.
Speaking of chaos, twenty twelve, Ryder Cup. In this book excerpt, Billy says Phil calls him to try to put a bet on Team USA. Madna, Yeah, you know this. This was the Rider Cup, you know. Billy essentially says I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this now and says I don't know if he got the bet in or if he went somewhere else, but he came to me with the bet and I was like, you're crossing lines here that that I'm not comfortable being a part of. Pete Rose lines.
Yeah, I'm going to read that passage because it's really interesting Phil calls him up from a dina, and of course this is Billy's words. He was so confident that he asked me to place a four hundred thousand dollars wager for him on the US team to win. I could not believe what I was hearing. Have you lost your fucking mind? I told him, don't you remember what
happened to Pete Rose? I mean, it's pretty funny. And again, that was always the defense of Pete Rose, you know, advocates was that, well, when you're when you're betting on your own team, that's not really doing anything wrong because you're trying to win the game no matter what. But the counter argument is that when when you have that money and that stress, you might do things in the short term, that's that's not going to help the team over a long season. You're gonna burn up your bullpen
because you got fifty thousand dollars on this game. You don't care, you're bringing all your you're bringing your closer in the third inning. If you have to write like it can affect your strategy. Now with Phil, he's used to you know, four thousand dollars is a third place check on the tour back then whatever he's used to playing for money, But it just speaks to a desperation, like the Ryder Cup has enough pressure, you need the
extra juice of a bet. It's crazy. I mean, there's enough action between the ropes to the Ryder Cup, you need another four hundred k. Like it's it's insane. And as Billy says, we don't know if Phil plays the bet, but it speaks to his frame of mind. And we know Phil had other bookies and other avenues for placing bets because some of the stuff has come out in public. Like also going back to your bulletproof glass, Like you know,
Phil is mixed up with Dandy Dawn. This this mob mobbed up dude in Detroit and that that became a whole public mess. There was this this you know, this guy Greg Silverian san Diego went to prison for you know, fraud related to this wire transfer that was sent to a high profile golfer the initials PM, That's what it
said in the court documents. Like you know, there was this guy Brian Zerif who Phil was one of his betting partners, and he was allegedly you know, he wound up getting in trouble with the Feds allegedly it was linked to the Russian mafia. Like there's there was some shady characters very close to Phil ergo the bulletproof glass and so you know really didn't didn't take the bet, but we don't know who was the next guy Phil
called and how big the number got. And if you remember the Miracle Medina, this is the Ryder Cup we're talking about. The whole thing flipped in singles when Justin Rose came back and beat Phil on the last last hole. You know Rose made that bomb on seventeen and then he takes the match. That was the key moment in this historic comeback for Europe. Now Phil was trying to win, Yes, of course he was, and if he was betting on himself, he was trying to win extra hard. But that's the
whole point, Like there's already enough pressure. If Phil has some huge bet out there with some shady character, who for whom you need to have bulletproof glass, Like that's just one more like log on the fire. It's insane that he would put himself in that position.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, But I think you go back to Saturday. I think you go back to Saturday afternoon and if you recall, I believe it was Phil and Keegan Bradley were basically unbeatable and closed out their Saturday morning match and all shot. It's like both of them only hit a total of like twenty two shots, some ridiculously low number. They were playing so well. And he's the one who went to Love and said we're sitting out, We're sitting out for Saturday afternoon and Keigan
Bradley was like, we're sitting out. Well, you know, I thought I thought it flipped that Saturday afternoon when when Europe caught a little momentum to try to like, you know, get get some afternoon wins leading into the singles the next day.
Yeah, I mean that that's a great point. Like what was was Phil, It was Phil resting up for his singles match because he had a.
Huge Remember everybody by surprise, like why are they not playing?
They're they're unbeatable. Keep them going right, Yeah, they went three and oh in the first three frames Michelson and Bradley and they were housing dudes. I mean, they'd beat Luke Donald and Sergio Garcia probably one of the strongest European teams ever. Four and three. Then they beat and they beat Rory and grab McDowell in afternoon four ball. Then you go to Saturday morning and they take on Lee Westwood and and Luke Donald, a couple of absolute warriors.
They beat him seven and six. Like you're saying, and that and that that was that was a head scratcher. Why are are they arresting now? There's there's a million things going on here. Phil has story out the cars, right, he's old. We're just speculating, but it does introduce this possibility like there was something going on, and it forces you to have some revisionist history when you know that that Phill's out there on the eve of the Ryder Cup trying to place bets. Alan.
You kind of started this asking a little bit about my reaction. You have spent time with Billy, you you you you went down and met with them as you're reporting out your Phil book. You know you've dealt with him and his lawyers throughout this whole process, and then you get the excerpt, You get the excerpt on behalf of fire Pit Collective and giving us this exclusive. What was your reaction when you actually got to read this chapter?
Yeah, and I actually read the whole book, and it's It was interesting because I did sit with Billy when I was reporting the Phil books, and I think now now it can be told because it's all out in the public domain. You know. I flew to Vegas and our whole conversation was off the record for you know, two hours we talked and he wanted me to know who Phil was, and he wanted me to know a lot of things. But he didn't want it in my book because he knew he was going to write his
own and he didn't. He didn't want to. He didn't want to give away the goods. And he actually he told me that writer cup story. And for two years I've had to sit on it. I mean I've never I've never breathed it out loud. It's never been in print. And even as you know, Phil was was talking, uh, you know, talking trash about me in various forums, saying that.
I was saying that you don't like it's actually you don't know the difference between on the record and off the record, like as it this is proof you know, the difference between what is and what isn't on and off the record.
It was insane, like because that would have. You know, it's a it's a mom to revelation, and it's probably going to be the biggest headline out of all this. Everyone already knew that feel better a lot of money. The actual the receipts are interesting and they're they're eye popping. But I think the Ryder Cup bit is the biggest revelation in in Billy's book and obviously in our excerpt.
And you know, I've known it for years and I couldn't say it, and so you know, when Phil said I didn't treat it fairly, it was like such an eye roll. Because I had this, it would have it would have sent my book to the moon even more. But I had an agreement with Billy. I always honor those agreements. So yeah, it was it was interesting. It was cathartic to see it in print. Honestly, at least now it's out. This is what happened. This is just the truth. You know, this is the reality. You know,
my reaction and we should say. You know, there's a second chapter that that where Billy goes into the insider trading case and we're sort of embargoed from talking about that from the publisher, Like our agreement was. We just would only talk about what in the excerpt, and that's fair. But of course I've read that chapter and it's pretty withering,
you know. I will say that in our excerpt, Billy talks about that, and he kind of teases it a little bit, and you know, as he writes, and as Billy writes in this chapter that we've excerpted, you know, about Phil, I never told him I had inside information about stocks and he knows it. All Phil had to do was publicly say it. He refused. The outcome cost me my freedom, tens of millions of dollars and a heartbreak I still struggle with daily. While I was in prison,
my daughter committed suicide. I still believe I could have saved her if I'd been on the outside. So, you know, Billy goes into great detail about the insider trading and Phil's role, and Phil was never charged with a crime. He did have to return about a million dollars in ill gotten gains, which is a favorite term of mine. So it's interesting to read Billy's take on all that,
and that'll that'll come out in other places. We won't talk about it here, but I think that on the whole Phil will survive this excerpt, this book and these revelations. It was interesting when he started it self identifying as a gambling addict, which was only happened in the wake of the publication of my book. And you know, that takes courage, that takes bravery to come out in public for anybody. We all have people in our lives who struggle with some kind of addiction and that's the hardest
part is for them to admit it. And for a public figure to say it publicly, that's a big deal. So I salute Phil's courage there. And the cynic would say that he knew what was in what was coming in Billy's book, and that was sort of rebranding. You know, we we all, I think societally we have more empathy for people who struggle with addiction versus those who were just reckless or foolish. Right, And so he'll say, hey, I was a gambling addict. I got it in over
my head on the bets. That was a long time ago. I think he'll survive that part. The Ryder Cup bit, I mean again, Pete Rose was banned for life from baseball. He's not in the Hall of Fame as the all time hits leader because of gambling on his own team, which is what you know, Billy alleged Phil wanted to do. Now, I'm sure, knowing Phil and knowing how it's gonna play out, feels like gonna stay. Oh, I was just joking. I you know, that was just that was just locker room talk.
I would never would bet on the Ryder cup. I never placed a bet. It never happened. And in the absence of some other person like Billy Walter's coming forward and saying, yeah, I cash that bet for Phil, he'll probably survive that too. You know, the the Insider Trading chapter, it's very unflattering towards Phil, as people can probably guess
from that little bit that I just read. But again, Phil's never charged with the crime and there's no new information in what Billy says it would probably change that,
So I think he'll survive that chapter too. I mean, it's just it's the through line in the Phil Mickelson story is he just kind of wiggles out of these things, and he's there have been so many blow ups and controversies in his public life and he's he's kind of skated on all of them, even you know, the revelations that came out of my book, calling you know, the public Investment Fund guys scary motherfuckers and all that uproar
getting suspended by the tour. In some ways, Phil's been vindicated, like the PGA tour is now doing business potentially if they can consummate the framework agreement with those very same scary motherfuckers. And a lot of the changes that Phil was calling for and advocating for have come to fruition. So even that was a monumental controversy his life, He's kind of survived that. He's just the ultimate survivor. So I think that I think that he's going to be okay.
But it's it just adds more contexts, more nuanced And I think the biggest takeaway is that that Bill Billy Walters and film making some of her best friends and they and Billy was Phil's mentor, and in the end Phil completely torched that relationship and did a lot of weird things and was not there for his friend when his friend was in a dire circumstance. And I think that's probably the most damaging thing. It's not the money.
We knew he bet a lot. He's going to skate on the Ryder Cup thing with the insider trading bits already mostly public, but that you know too. You have a friend who's drowning. He's in the he's in the white water, and you're potentially holding, you know, a rope you can throw to him, and Phil never threw the rope. And Billy's telling that that's that's rough, man. I mean
that that really hits you on a human level. And I think that's probably gonna on some level kurdle feelings towards Phil more than anything else in this book.
The last line in the book excerpt that Billy writes is, as my book makes clear, Phil is not always the person he seems to be. And I had someone recently, in sort of casual conversation out on the golf course, ask me, why was Alan writing a book on Phil? You know, you know the timing of what he said, You trying to get a hold of him him not let it, you know, sort of you convincing him that his inner circle needed to kind of talk to you so that the book that you were writing could be
fair and balanced. And someone's someone saying, why was Phil writing a book? Why was Alan writing a book on Phil, and I was like, have you read the book? It's because it's all of this because he's so complicated. You know,
it's complicated, it's layered, it's complex. I mean, you know, I don't know, I don't know, like the the just the Phil being this big onion and just the peeling back of who he is and what he is and how he operates and the relationships he has or the bets that he had, like it's just so so much. It's and you know, even to this day, like you know, and the Saudis and the breakaway League and the he just like it's just he is. He is quite a quite a character.
Yeah, And you know, I have my own book coming out in a little while about the Live Golf PGA Tour, and I've learned so much about Phil in this process. And of course everyone knows he was he was he was deep in league with the Saudis, but there was two other breakaway leagues that Phil was heavily involved. He was advocating for the PGL, the Premier Golf League, which was a precursor to all this. Uh. And there's a hilarious bit where I mean, I'm ruining a funny part
in my book. But he calls up Keith Pelly of the European Tour, you know, the CEO of the European Tour. He's like, Keith, you're a visionary. The PGL is gonna work, like you got to make it happen. And he's like, if we just need one player to sign and everyone will sign, including Tiger, you know, and like Phil just geting this hard selly. It's just funny that he calls a Pelly and you know you're a visionary, Like I
just love it. It's so over the top. And then there was this third rail thing that Phil he took to this big private equity firm in New York and was was kind of like he had they had this other idea. This this came out in the New York Post a while ago, and it's just like he was working four sides of this street. He was negotiating with the tour, with the Saudi's, with Premiere Golf League, and
with these private equity guys, and it's just unbelievable. I mean again, you could say Phil was right like it. One of the lessons from this framework a green and this all of this is that the tour business model was outdated and they needed to be for profit like the other leagues are in professional sports, and they needed to have the ability to take outside money. And Phil saw that very clearly. But he was just trying to make it happen in the in the back alleys, in
the shadows. But he wasn't He wasn't wrong on the merits. It's just the way he handled everything. And you know, again, I send a tweet out about the Billy Walters stuff this morning, and some folks have responded, it's his money, he can do what he wants. Sure, that's totally true.
It is his money he can set on fire. However, where it becomes more complex is if he's betting so much and losing so much that he has to chase money, and that leads to a complete reshifting of the entire professional golf landscape, which might or might not be exactly what happened. Then Phil's private gambling becomes a keen interest to the higher golf world and it had haess have
this cascading effect on the entire sport. So, you know, it's it's interesting, I fully, you know, when when players get in trouble with the drugs, alcohol, women, Like I tryed to wag my finger. You know, I'm not trying to moralize, like we're all flawed, we all make mistakes, and but when there's larger consequences, then it becomes it spills into the public domain. And so it's it's just
a fast it's just another fascinating chapter. I mean, I remember you and I Matt talking like ten years ago about golf has to prepare for the post Tiger and Phil era right, like they can't go on forever as the headliners. But here we are, like fills in his fifties. Tiger's broken down heading for age fifty, and they still
dominate the discourse and every way. You know, Tiger is now going to save the PG Tour by joining the board, and he organized the meeting in Delaware and all of it, and uh, you know, the whole world vibrates whenever he teas it up, even when he misses the cut. And you know, here's Phil almost one of the masters this year, and he's the center of all these storms. And now there's this this Billy Walter's book and he has a
prominent role in my next book. It's like we can't quit these guys like they just won't go away.
There.
The cult of personality around Tiger and Phil is so monumental. We're never going to escape them. I mean, we're you and I are going to be in our seventies and so are they, and we're still going to be talking about them and writing about them. It's just it's unbelievable. But I mean maybe we're lucky they're they're certainly fascinating, and their their flaws and their their human element is part of what makes it so interesting. Like like take Derek Jeter or I don't know, Tom uh what, Patrick
Mahomes or Mike Trout. Those are better examples transcendent athletes. Totally boring and no one's you can't write, you can't talk about them for fifty years. They're just they're just great athletes. But Phil and Tiger exist on so many different levels, and they become these these moral questions, and they become these mirrors where we have to we have to look at ourselves and society as a whole, and it's just it's it's unbelievable time to be alive as as a golf fan and being on the golf media.
Oh yeah, and that's and we have also been talking about that since the mid nineties, which is how lucky are we to be alive and in this industry covering Tiger and Phil like in the bloodstream of of what these guys are pumping out, pumping through the sort of the the bodies of sports fans and brought golf. You know, golf needed Arnold Palmer, and Arnold Palmer needed Jack Nicholas.
Golf needed Tiger Woods, and Tiger Woods needed Phil Mickelson because you have to have someone to go along with you. You and we, you know, we caught the tail end of the first part, you know of Tiger and Jack, I mean of Arnold and Jack. We got Tiger and
then Phil. I think the bigger question for me is who is the next who is the next sort of you know, competitor and you know golfer for that matter, Who's going to fill this insane void on the course of what these got you know, brooks Kepler and Bryson d Schambeau or you know, it's not it's not that that's Tadley Winks compared to like what we're talking about with Tiger and Phil.
I uh well, partly probably no one because they've been such cautionary tales. I mean, I think you look at a guy like Rory, I think he watched Tiger's life disintegrate and all the strife that Tiger's been through, and that helped Rory. You know, Roy was kind of swinging single guy, and he was chasing girls, and he was driving fast cars and he was doing all that stuff. It was a little more low key and a little more controlled, but he was having his fun for sure.
And I think he saw Tiger's life opening flames. He's like, yeah, I better, I better change my trajectory a little bit, or don't get married and have a kid and you've become extremely private and hide behind very tall hedges. And you know, I think I think Tiger and Philip scared a lot of these guys straight, and.
And social media, by the way, like it's just a different time. It's just a different time. And then you know, there's there's not the veils that these guys mounted, you know, from a business standpoint, from a personal standpoint, and you know, all the the the the the the stuff that they were involved in was just stuff that you know, and and and Arnold, Arnold benefited from that, and I'm sure many others you know of that era, not unlike in any sport or or politics for that matter. And I
just think it's a different time. It's so hard to create those facades in what we're living in today.
I mean it is wild Tigers, you know, selling Buick family cars and rondevou we like you know, porn stars. And you know, Phil's the ultimate family man, skipping skipping us opens for his kids events, and he's got all this mob, all these shady dudes in his life and all this other stuff. And I will say, you know, Billy Walters in his book does does right that I'm not going to get into Phil's private life, and that will be a monumental sigh of relief to Fill and
the people around him, because they were very close. They moved in the same circles, whether it's the Madison Club in Palm Springs or wherever. And Billy knows a lot of stuff, and that he ultimately went you know, bro code and didn't put anything in print was a massive favor to Phil and.
Will and quite frankly separates separates Billy from Phil in a way to your point about like Phil could have could have given a rope to his buddy but chose not to. Yeah, that's a good point, I mean, and also there's a big there is a little sliver of me, you know. I just think Tiger and Phil were always fascinating. We're always drawn by their greatness on the course there they are just as fascinating off the course, and to
your point, again, will continue to be. It's amazing. It's amazing what we've been able to follow along and observe and witness. Sometimes it's been painful to watch. In many cases it's been painful to watch. It is it's very much like going to a car race. I mean, they're going at very high speeds. It's high stakes. There's sharp turns, you know, there's other that you know, if you're not rubbing,
you're not racing. These guys have been rubbing and racing for a long stretch of time and at very high speed, and to this point they're still alive to tell about it and for us to watch. You know what's next. You know, in a way, we thank you, Thank you Tiger and Phil.
Yeah. I got a little shudder when you said that, you know, thinking about Tiger's car accident and you know it's real. It's real. And I put this in print. I've talked about this before. I mean, it's dark when you start looking at the details that accident. I mean, he's never talked about it. It's all in the police report, is how he bats it away. And in the police report it says that pedal was depressed ninety nine percent force throughout the whole accident. That doesn't happen. If you
fall asleep, that doesn't happen. If you get distracted by your phone, like that's willful. And there's an elm. There's something dark there. And you know Junior Say, if you remember, he had a one car accident and a lot of his friends were concerned about about him because this story didn't check out, and then of course he wound up
taking his own life. And I've always thought about the reporting around after after after Junior say, I was dead when hearing about that that accident, and and how concerned
the people were in his world. And so yeah, it's I mean, we we've marveled these guys as sportsmen, and they've enriched our lives in so many ways as golf fans, and the most transcendent moments of between the ropes of of the last you know, three decades have been from Tiger and Phil and they've been these these incredible characters. But there's also there's there's a dark side there, and there's a there's a level of concern and the recklessness
and the out of control aspects of their life. You're right, they've they're still here. It's somewhat incredible on some level. And there you know, feel still going strong. I mean, the guy almost went won the freaking Masters a few months ago. So Tigers played a higher price, you know, but it's it's real stuff, and it does I do have empathy for both of them because and if you and I were given access to unlimited money and fame at a young age, like who knows what would have happened.
They might be writing books about you and I. Like, So I'm not one, I'm not I'm not moralizing, I'm not I'm not condemning them, like we've all made our mistakes. And but there's as you said, it was at higher speeds and higher stakes. And when I when I going back to your question for a while ago, when I read this Billy's book, you know, I felt some sadness for Phil, because this was an important relationship in his
life that's just been napalmed. And if you remember what got Billy Walters sentence commuted by President Trump was was in part the support of the golf community. Butch Harmon, David Ferdy, Peter Jacobson there among the guys who wrote letters in support of Billy Walters. Those are three of the most popular guys in golf, right. And from talking to people at the Mass and Club and other places, you kind of had to pick sides where you with Phil or with Billy, And almost everyone took Billy's side.
And you know, I've been told that Phil's not really welcome with the Mass and Club anymore. And that was his home base in a lot of ways, and but that was also Billy's spot. And so it's like the people close to them chose sides, and they voted with their feet and they all went. They all went with Billy. And even you know, writ writing this live book, there's
a there's a theme with Greg Norman. It's like the emptiness in his life and the lack of friends has been this huge void and he's destroyed a lot of friendships and it kind of feels the same with Phil. You know, like the people that he was close to, the Lama has been left behind. They don't have a new number. He's just become kind of this recluse. And so Billy Walters is part of that story, and he tells it. He tells it pretty pretty bluntly in this book.
And so it's it's there's there's a heaviness to all of this. I mean, can we can you have to shake your head in amazement and almost laugh about the numbers. They're so cartoonist of the betting. I mean, who bets a billion dollars? It's like it's hard to you can't even process it, and you have to laugh. But there's there's a there's a there's a dark side to all of this. And so you know, I think we're just gonna see how it plays out, how Phil responds, and and where we go from here.
The famous Andy Mill quote, former husband of Chris Everett, who piled around with Greg Norman and his wife, and then Chris Everett left Andy to be with Greg. They got married, divorced, and Andy Mill saying I would have taken a bullet for Greg. I just didn't know it was going to come from his gun.
Yeah, it's a classic and.
That that you know, and that's essentially what Billy said at the end of you know, at the end of the excerpt was you know this we were you know, he was in the Whitewater, needed a needed a friend and didn't happen.
But uh wow, Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, look at like look at Nick Faldo. You know, there's been a lot of messiness in his life, you know, Lee Trevino, all the divorces and all the craziness. I mean, it really begs a question. Now you have you have your Jack Nicholas's who you know, been married to the same woman's whole life, and there's there's there's exceptions to the rule. But a lot of these great champions, they're so single minded they just leave. They leave a lot of damage
behind in their lives and is it worth it? I mean, only they can answer that question, that's all we We've always had. This has come up in various times, like if you could give Tiger trucierum and ask them only one question, and people always have a different one. My question, my answer is always saying was it worth it? I was curious what Tiger said, I'm curious what Phil would say, was it worth it? I mean, they they've been to the mountaintop and they've they've they've tasted some of those
glorious moments in sports history. And and they've made fortunes, and they've lost fortunes, and they've they've lost marriages. They've liked all of it. It's it's wild stuff.
And and and I think they only have an answer to that question right before the end. And so you know, and the story is still going, so you know, I I would imagine they probably need I would I would think they still need time. I don't know, I don't know, I don't know.
I think that's true. The story is still going. The book has been written. It is Billy Walters a Gambler. It's on sale everywhere next week. Of course, you can find it wherever you buy your books. It's an interesting read. And uh, as I said, Phil's only two chapters in it. There's Billy's had a crazy life. I enjoyed learning more about him. I mean he was he was born dirt
poor in Kentucky, abandoned by his parents. Like you talk about a hard knock life, it's really an American story and with a lot of twists and turns, so anyone, anyone will enjoy it, this book, I believe. But the Mickelson stuff is the is the head the headlines, it's and it's it's the racist stuff. I think. So it's been it's been interesting to pick it apart. Matt. Thanks for doing this, appreciate your insight.
Thank you, and thank thank you for continuing to be at the center of all of this in what I would say has been a rather impressive display of commitment, time, effort, energy, reporting, writing, podcasting, all the while doing any number of other things, including coaching your your daughter's basketball team, and being an incredible dad to the other three kids you have. So, I mean, you know, it's amazing. It's it's always uh, you know,
it's great to work with you. It's also great to talk with you about what it is we do and uh, just incredible stuff. Yet again, Yeah, well.
Back atcha, it's uh yeah, it's and it's just funny because you know we're the same age as these guys. I mean, it came up. I mean I turned pro the same year Tigers. I left UCLA. When when Tiger left Stanford, you know, when I was an intern at Sports Illustrated. That was Phil's second full season. You've been tracking them the whole way through as well, Like, it's just.
My life is complicated, Like we both juggle a lot of things. When I read and hear about these guys lives, I'm like Jesus, like.
How many how many people.
In their inner circle are they keeping busy trying to keep up with these shenanigans.
Well, yeah, I mean I've now spoken to four different lawyers for Phil Mickelson in the last couple of years, So that's is.
Just so much lower than theirs.
Some people have a lawyer if you're like, really have a big life, you might have two. I mean, he's got at least four. It's wild incredible, It's incredible, incredible. All right, good stuff, Well, thanks for listening. This was another fire a drill. We will be back at you with who knows what's coming next. There's always something here at Fire Collective, but we appreciate your fidelity. Thanks for listening, and this is the end. Goodbye.
I'm been big. I play the Wind, made a fortune when my ship game and ran the table, and I have thought I could fall in the winter time. Hit me like a cannon in the ball and now I can't shake this losing streak. Every road I take is a dead end street. I got thoughts in my head, can't get them out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about. I've got thoughts in my head. I can't get them out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about.