Mm hmm.
My sense has always been that the yasser are going to decide this, you know, not Jay Monahan, not Roy McElroy, not this new fangled board of directors. It's he's got the money, he's got the juice, and it is it has been his creation that he's nurtured, and he's very close to some of the key live players and they bought into his vision.
I got daughts in my head.
Can't get him joh not the thing what I'm thinking about. Can't get him out, jo Not the thing what I'm thinking about.
Hello, welcome back to the fire Drill Podcast. This is Alan Shipnak joined by Matt Janella. We want to talk about the state of the game, the state of the fire Pit, some of the things are working on, and just kind of do a little catchup. Maddie Thing, thanks for jumping on here.
Well, I got to go to the horse's mouth. I want to get the I want to get. I wanted to get the scoop and who better than you?
Yeah, Yeah, We'll dive into live golf and all the latest developments. It's like every day it never ends. I'm going to be literally they'll be printing my book I'm going to be at the pretty facility, like handwriting notes in the margin because things just keep happening. But before we get going, let's let's thank our sponsors, Dormy Workshop. Anything you want to say about our friends over at Dormy, Matt.
No, I mean, it's just that they are an incredible golf family business based in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where all they make is quality leather head covers and accessories. I met these guys, the Bishop Brothers, at the PGA Merchandise Show almost ten years ago, and when I used to run around the morning drive looking for things to promote for buddies trips or gifts or things gadgets, I couldn't help but always go to the Dormy Workshop stand and grab some of their stuff that they that they'd made.
It's just incredible. I just don't think there's anybody else in the industry doing it quite like they do it and personalize certain personalizing certain things and creating certain things that every time they post something, you're like, that's amazing. They got some sort of baseball glove headcover now that looked like you can personalize, and they've done some great stuff for us. So go to Firepit Collective dot com and get some of their fire pit headcovers and stash bags.
Or go to Dormy Workshop dot com and use promo code fire Pit fifteen for fifteen percent off some of the stuff that they have on their website. I really appreciate their support.
Same. So the latest twist and turns, you know, Jaymonahan, his excellency Yasser Aldermayan, and Greg normanans some into Capitol Hill to testify about what's really happened with behind the scenes getting some of the anti trust issues that set for July eleven. As part of that, they had to turn over the five page framework Agreement, which was the
signed document that led to this earthquake. And they they talked around it and and and Jimmy Dunn as well had pulled out some of the language and their press appearances, but no one had seen the document. And then by turning it over to the it's good to know how how how quickly the US government people are to leak documents. It was like it dropped in Washington, c within minutes. Everybody had it. But we thanked them for their service.
There weren't any bombshells, really, you know, I think that that that Jay and Jimmy and others have been pretty good at summarizing the contents of this agreement. But there were definitely some nuggets. I mean, one that that jumps out right away was the line in there that that the PGA Tour and the dp World Tour are going to, uh, you know, try their best to get world ranking points for live golf. And it's interesting because they were fighting
hard to prevent that. But you know, obviously the landscape has changed. It's obviously a win for live. That's one of the things that's sort of legitimized. The entire thing is and it's been this background battle. The larger question, you know, what's gonna happen to live golf? I mean that there's really three or four big questions. What in
this new merger. What's gonna happen to live golf? How are they going to make hole the players who stayed loyal to the PGA Tour, whether there's live or not. How are players gonna be re into you know, how are the live guys going to be reintegrated into the larger landscape. Those are the biggies, And there wasn't a lot of clarity in that document. But uh, it was
it was certainly interesting to see. And I will say Keith Pelly signature is off the charts, like I mean if people make fun of my signature when I'm siding books at SFO. But it was ornate and funny.
But you don't wear those kinds of you don't wear those kinds of glasses and that variety of color and have kind of a bland you know, autograph. It just it's just not part of the deal.
Yeah, that's a good call. It's all it all work. It's it's the totality of Keith Helly. But your sense has.
Always been that live lives though. Your sense is that why would they scrap it? This was this was Yasir's baby and it made it or it made or makes no sense to you that they would just completely scrap it, And especially if there's going to be some sort of process and sort of the players not don't automatically get back in right like and they've got contract, Like, I don't see how how there's a situation where it just goes away.
My sense has always been that that Yaser are going to decide this, you know, not jay Monhan not Roy McElroy, not this new fangled board of directors. It's he's got the money, he's got the juice, and it is it has been his creation that he's nurtured. And he's very close to some of the key live players and they bought into his vision, right. They're the ones who took the leap of faith and that meant so much to him personally and to the you know, this the whole
idea of the cloud. He's getting into professional golf and and then those pioneers essentially brought us to this moment, and so there is a loyalty there, and there's there's a sense of ownership and but at the same time, I mean, he's a ruthless businessman, and so I think I think they're going to take a hard look at it. It's clear that this is this process is going to be ornate, and the idea that it's going to get wrapped up here in the coming months is pretty fanciful.
The framework agreement expires on December thirty first this year. However, there is language that they can they can extend that and that seems likely, even though it throws into uncertainty so much. You know, there was a board meeting today that this is Tuesday, and you know that the tours in Detroit at Rocket Mortgage and there was a Player only meeting and then the board met and put out a statement basically saying that we're committed to working on
this process. But some of the language in there was interesting. It was kind of like, if we can finalize the agreement, not when you know there's been a lot of pushback internally from the Player directors, especially Patrick Cantley is an interesting person in all of this. He's been he's been.
I'm sorry, what did you say, Patrick Kantley has been an interesting Person's amazing.
I know, breaking news. Yeah, the word interesting is rarely applied to the guy, but he is. He is smart, and he is strident, and someone who's dealt with him on governance issues describing to me as a terrific penis I said, I didn't quite get it. It's like he's a big dick, like he's just hard to deal with and he's all along, has just been pushing for the interests of the Delaware twenty three, you know, just the top guys who've been sort of setting this policy. And
he really doesn't care about the journeyman. He doesn't care about the opposite field events. He's kind of gone all in on this tour within a tour, which is fine, but it's created a lot of hard feelings because that's the majority of the players out there. And so now he's pushing back on this framework agreement and a lot of details and you know it, whatever gets agreed upon between Yasser, Jimmy Dunn, jay Monhan or his replacement, because that remains an unknown, it's still going to have to
be approved by the PGA Tour Board. And the players now have five votes. Rory's one of them. I mean, he's obviously he was thrown to the wolves here. He could be persuaded maybe to go against the tide. And then Peter Malnaughty, who was elected, you know, sort of a journeyman to represent the little guy. I mean, it's easy to imagine him siding with Can't Lay and these things. So right, there's three votes, and it gets interesting because this people talk about this like it's a done deal,
but it's not. And that's becoming more and more clear. And there's gonna be there's gonna be a lot of give and take, and there's gonna be a lot of wrangling, and this process is not done. It's just beginning.
I mean so, uh, this to me has always felt like the sum total of Live was doing what it was doing. The tour had reacted the way it reacted. They were the sponsors. We knew enough. You've known way more than me, but we've talked to a lot of tournament sponsors. We know tournament sponsors were not happy. They were lined up and talking about their future to say, we have a watered down product. You're asking us for more money. Uh, this this makes no sense. That doesn't
pencil out. You're talking at us, not with us. We keep getting surprised by this news and everything that goes along with it. You're trying to control what it is that you know, our our sometimes decades long commitment to this tour product, and you're treating us like this. You know, we we knew the Jim Cranes were very verbal and vocal right from the from the outset, and we're and we're you know, using leverage, and he was one of
the guys who could have afforded. So you know that there was a lot of places that were so we knew the tour was was against the ropes, non sustainable water down product, asking for more money. You know, something had to give. So this this, this seemed to me like Done and Hurley he got in this room and said for the better of Like we'll deal with the
players later. They're going to eventually understand that without this whatever, you know, let's not call it a merger, but without this agreement, without this partnership, without piff money, and without trying to find a way of union, you know, unifying this world of professional here when they talk about golf, this is good for golf, this is this is professional golf.
This is this is like just professional golf. The difference between NFL and baseball and when no one's running around playing those sports, you know, for a lifetime you know activity, Yeah, like we do with golf, like golf. Like that's why I was trying to say in the last podcast. Is golf for me is what we play? Professional golf is this cash grab great, go get it, and the big trophies during the majors mean a little something more and you're going down in the history books and that's how
you'll be judging from a legacy standpoint. But Done and Hurley he basically I think now and Monhann are left explaining to players like Can'tley or others, Hey, guys, you can either get on board with this, or you can get on board with something that is going to be like a shell of what you've been used to or what you think is happening for the future of the
PGA Tour. There's no more Tiger fills it, you know, now creeping into his mid fifties, like we got to get on, getting on, or this is going to come to a crashing halt.
Yeah, you know there's a third written true, but there's a third rail here where now that the tour has introduced this idea of becoming a for profit entity, if they can't come to terms with the piff the Saudis, they could go to other private equity folks. And there's there's plenty of been sniffing around. I mean, Rain Capital was involved with the Premier Golf League and they're they're still involved. I mean the guy who runs rain Capital,
essentially Colin Neville. He was in the room in Delaware. He's been an advisor to Rory and Tiger, and he could probably raise a billion dollars with a few phone calls now.
So they can still go for for profit without having this part this this this deal get.
Done, yeah, because that's in the language like if basically it's one of the clauses that was in this this framework agreement. We're going to try our best and good faith to make this work, and if not, we'll shake hands and go our separate ways and can continue doing our own thing. And so you know everyone's talked about well this this was a trojan horse by the Saudis start live force the tour to capitulate take over the tour.
Well you could look at the other way around. This is a trojan horse by the tour to become for profit, to introduce this idea of reshaping the business. They can now discard the Saudis trying to reclaim the moral high ground, and the players will go along with anything at this point because they understand the extential crisis to their business. And you can bring in a blackwater. I mean, there's there's a million hedge funds and private equity places out
there that would would pour money into it. So this it's a little fragile right now. And you know clearly that the piff has more money than anybody else but they don't have all the money. There's other places, and so that that becomes a whole interesting subtext to this. Now it just to continue the thought exercise. If that were to happen, it's still a win for the tour. And that they've ended the litigation and that was dismissed without prejudice, meaning you can never refile it like it's
done forever. All the both.
Sides wanted that, right, That was the other thing. Yeah, ten poles, none of those top guys wanted their phones confiscated, emails revealed, none of that, like all those they all and the Saudis wanted. Everybody wanted to keep their own ship, their own ship.
Yeah, but you know, the ending the litigation does not end the Department of Justice anti trust investigation. So it definitely turns the volume down on all the legal wrangling. But the Department of Justice is still sniffing around. And you know, Monahan's comment that we did this to take a competitor off the board was a huge blunder because
that just gives more scrutiny to this. This notion that this merger, which is not really a merger, but that's become a common usage, was designed to, you know, to to thwart the competition between these two entities, and that that is classic anti trust. So and that's why these guys are getting haled in front of in front of you know, senators because this is this is an ongoing issue. It does taking away the lawsuit and the kind of lawsuit does help, But the Department of Justice, they're the
ones who are snatching the phone. It's not the lawyers for each side, they don't have that authority, but the Department Justice does. So that's that's an ongoing background. So for this framework agreement to become final, they have to convince the board, they have to get the players behind it, and they have to survive an anti trust investigation. So it's it's tenuous, but.
There's also a fract. There's also a there's also a splinter between the It's not just the players on board, right there is there is this whole group of players who are represented by a whole group of agents who are like, where do we fit into all of this? Right?
Yeah? I mean that the agents in the in the age of Live had more power they've ever had before because they were the conduits for all this deal making. And you know, this guy, Magined al Soror, who was running live day to day for its first year plus. He was a great relationship builder with the agents, and a lot of them call them like my guy. You know, Imagined was my guy. He's gone now. But the agents, it was it was like Christmas every day for them.
You know, they these once in a lifetime windfalls. Because it's so funny how this is so subtle. But the relationship between agents and players varies. But generally they get twenty percent of endorsement money, but they don't get anything that's on the golf course. Now, what is the live contract. It falls into this gray area. It's not a classic endorsement. It's like an appearance feed, but not exactly. It's it's
not winnings per se. And so the players and the agents had to negotiate this individually, how they were going to handle these big signing bonuses. And generally they most didn't pay twenty percent, some paid as little as ten, some paid fifteen. But these were you know, fifteen percent. One hundred million dollars is a heck of a lot of money for these agents, and so.
Instead of negotiating for their clients, the negotiating with their clients.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a fascinating subtext. I get into all the stuff in the book. And so yeah, if this, and this is another thing that was in the framework agreement is that they agreed that players cannot switch to while this is being negotiated. So there's the idea of Live recruiting other players is on hold until this shakes out. Now. If so, just to extend this thought exercise, what happens if this whole thing blows up, Well, then Live is
back in business. The tour has forfeited the moral argument. They've they've given the stamp of approval to the Saudi money. Then therefore there's no reason for anyone to stay on the PGA tour. So so the tour is like fighting for its life here. They've got to consummate this agreement. But there's these powerful forces that are making it complex. So it's gonna be interesting to see how this all plays out. And to your question of like fifteen minutes ago,
I never fully answered what happens to Live. I mean, it's increasingly clear they're going to play a live schedule in twenty twenty four because this is not going to be resolved, there's contracts in plays, the schedules finalized, So I think Live is safe for twenty four and then then it's going to be a fundamental question. And you know, for for Yasir, it's still his baby and he has
absolute power. Right, So, like people weren't tuned into this, but the season finale U for this year and Live Golf was supposed to be in Miami, it got it got moved to Jetta, Saudi Arabia. No one in Live wanted it to go to Jedda. So now their biggest, most important event is played in the middle of the night with no fans and in a you know, versus Miami, which is a fun party town. It's be in prime
time whatever. But Yaser wanted it so that therefore it's done, and so if he keeps Live going, he can reshape it along those lines. He can do whatever he wants. Whereas if you if they fold up Live and he just becomes an investor in the tour, he has tons of say. But the status quo is powerful, Like, you know, maybe they could get one tour event in Saudi Arabia, but that's far from a sure thing. And so there's
various reasons to keep LIV going. Also to circumvent the antitrust say, okay, we'll just keep it as its separate thing where we're not anti competitive. We didn't we didn't shut it down. There's that, and then there's just this notion like why did they even get why do they even launch Live? I mean, clearly they wanted to become part of the Western world. They wanted to be accepting
the golf world. But you know, one of the pillars of this vision twenty thirty, which is the you know, MBS has staked his whole rain on this idea is to increase tourism, and you know Live has a lot of potential there, Like they could add a second event in a different part of Saudi Arabia. You know, they could leverage the star power of their players, and you could have a Phil Micholson golf course or a brooks Kepka golf course or whatever. And so there's various reasons to keep it going.
Now that cam Smith golf course would be cool.
Yeah, it would just be like Pineer's number two all domed greens, shit down.
I'm going to play a cam Smith golf course.
Yeah, it'd be a short game for days. It's kind of like what's fill did at Whisper Rock, you know. But so yeah, it's it's a very interesting question what's going to happen to live golf, And there's a lot of there's a lot of reasons to keep it going. There's reasons not to. Partly it's not making money. In fact, it's losing money. And also it would create this continued
schism in the game. Even if even if the live guys can flow back and forth to the and make some cameos on the PGA tour, it's complex as long as it's in existence. So that's a foundational question.
Yeah, but to your point, now, it seems even if this doesn't go through, doesn't happen, there is some on course, some some live activation momentum as they're realizing if we go to places where the tour doesn't go, we have we have an audience on site. It's going to feel bigger than it's it's been feeling bigger than the US Open, oh,
by the way, which is a whole other conversation. But then also you have you have it should got to be easier to get you know, some sort of distribution deals done by virtue of they're no longer apparently according to the tour, they're no longer the enemy. In this wording, the verbage that jumped out to me is they go from essentially enemy number one to premier corporate Piff being the premier corporate sponsor. The premier corporate sponsor goes from zero to hero.
Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, So distribution.
Could get easier. They're learning from their mistakes. They still have they still have the players that are that are interesting, that's been you know, you know, Brooks, cam Phil finishing second, the Masters, these guys are these guys are playing golf. Yeah.
I mean if to me, if I'm yeah, yeah, and you get world ranking points, it would clearly be easier to recruit in the future. I mean, if I'm auser, why not why not have the best of both worlds. You have you keep you keep liv going and you do whatever you want with it, and then you have you have you have Piff running the PGA Tour on some level like you could have. He could have both.
I mean, all it takes is money. And if it's always been their strategy to get the investment back from Live to try and sell these franchises and so they've never really even gone to market with that. Who knows what the market would support. I mean, it's an interesting thought exercise. Now as as as you say, they've they've been welcomed into the larger ecosystem. So it's it's gonna
be fascinating to see how this plays out. And on hand, you know, what if if Jay walks away and well, you know, the the Senate testimony is gonna be very interesting because if he doesn't show up for that, then it's pretty clear either his health problems are more serious than they've led on or he's he's he's stepping away. And if he does show up, it's gonna be a big deal. It's probably gonna be his first public appearance and there'll be a lot of energy around that. So,
you know, where does Monaghan fit into this? There's no clear successor, Like you know, Tim Fincham made it very obvious that Jay Monahan was going to succeed him. Because Monahan's so much younger and he's only been on the job for five years, there hasn't been an obvious candidate to replace him yet, and so that would touch off a whole other thing because it's already a big job. Now it could be monumental.
So why I saw Jimmy Dunn at Augusta National a few weeks before the Masters with Rory McElroy and Shane Lowry, they and Tom Brady. It seemed to me that they're very close, Rory being Rory, Jimmy Dunn being Jimmy Dunn. I mean Jimmy Dunn is that they would the PGA Tour would be in a good place if Jimmy Dunn stayed at the wheel from a from a business standpoint and from a from a diplomatic standpoint, just in the Pulley has with play with key players.
Yeah, I mean it's an interesting idea. I'm not sure he'd want it because being the commissioner is a grind. I mean, you're going to thirty plus events a year, every player on tours in your in your ear, bitching about X, Y and Z. You've got to glad hand all the sponsors. You've got to. It's you're negotiating tons of contracts. You've got to. There's a corporate side, there's a TV side, there's pick a pick a commissioner.
If you if you could wave a wand right now, based on all that you know and everything you've seen and heard, who's the best commissioner to replace ja Jamon And if that, if that were to come about.
Mm I would say Joe Ogilvie, you know, former tour player, now in the finance world, incredibly smart, knows the business. How's the respect of the players?
You know, like twenty five years.
I mean, it was always kind of a joke just because he was he was so clever and so well spoken. But now he's had success in the business world and he's become kind of this oracle. Uh, you know when he talked about these things, people pay attention. One of the reason that Dean Bemon had such a long run was because he was a player, and he was a pretty successful player and he and it's one of the reasons why the guys on LIV love Greg Norman because
he just has a player's perspective. You know, Finchham didn't have that, Monahan doesn't have that. So I think at this very fraught year, to have a former player would would be huge. I mean, we joke about Jeff. I know I was gonna say, we joke about Jeff all the time because he has such a great mind. I know for a fact he doesn't want the job because
it's so thankless, even though it's a nice paycheck. Got But yeah, So, I mean, the think about Jimmy Dunn, Like that Golf Channel interview he gave or he said he would you know, he would kill the terrorists himself, Like that was a major red flag. Of all the out of pocket things that have been said during this whole controversy, that was one of the wildest. And you know, you need a certain disposition and a certain diplomacy to
be the commissioner, especially in this fraught moment. And there's no doubt that Jimmy Dunn is great at building relationships in various grill rooms of fancy golf clubs, and people love his company. But you know, that was sort of his national debut in the media spotlight, and that was like wow, I can't believe he just said wow. So I liked it.
I mean, I liked I liked the fire. But I get your point, He's probably not the best to be like. I was like, Okay, I love I mean, I've I've had a couple of really cool experiences with Jimmy Dunn. I would I would follow him, you know, anywhere he went. But that was that was that was that was abrupt and abrasive to be said on Golf Channel.
Yeah all of all. So who knows like that would be a big job.
Greg Norman, in your mind, stays or goes regardless. I mean, what's the what is his status?
I think he'll fight hard to stay on through twenty four and have pretend he has the role and to to look like he has the place in this new world order. And but clearly he's been an impediment if we're trying to put the game back together. None of the tour players want him around. No one in pont of Euder Beach wants him. I think, you know, Greg's almost seventy. I think you know, I was told by
people Live he has a huge gold in parachute. I think he stays on as long as he feels like he can declare victory and then just just sort of right off into the sunset. He's so polarizing and so divisive, I can't imagine he would last longer than that. Assuming that this gets consummated and this new code does be come a thing, if it all blows up and Live just stays independent, then maybe you know he'll last longer.
But if you're trying to to reimagine professional golf, I don't see a place for him.
Meanwhile, Tiger would like, what what what? Obviously you've heard nothing, because otherwise everyone would have heard something. But what is where is Tiger?
I mean, what I have heard about Tiger is that he wasn't stoked, but he also understands. I mean, Tiger's Tiger's a very black and white personality, right.
And.
He doesn't get caught up in the nuance like he That's just how he's always kind of done things. And when he ends in a relationship, it's over and it's cold blooded.
He locks the door.
Yeah, exactly, we're gonna drive you to the airport on vacation, and we're gonna change a lot from while you're gone like that. So I think Tiger's already moved on. Like Okay, I said, if I wanted to say, I took a stand the other side. The other side prevailed tentatively, and let's go. I mean, how he's already thinking of, you know,
ways he can leverage this. I'm sure he's looking at golf course design projects somewhere in the Persian golf as we speak, you know, at least on Google Maps whatever. Like Tiger's a pretty rapacious businessman. And now now he just got the okay to do business in Saudi Arabia. So you know, his his arguments were always about the competitive nature of live golf, I mean everything he said. He never made the moral argument. He always said, I
don't like it because they haven't earned it. And the players who are going over there, what's the incentive to practice? Where the guaranteed money? All this and that you know, Tigers saw it through the competitive lens, and so I don't think he's.
The other from a legacy lens too. Like we talked about eighty two and fifteen. You know, if there's some sort of like breakaway tour and everything goes that direction, then and eighty two PGA Tour wins and fifteen majors, fifteen majors, you know, can stand stand the test of time. But eighty two PGA tour wins is something that think about what that took to get to that number. That's a number worth worth protecting and standing by. If I would never know, but eighty two wins is eighty two wins.
I totally agree. I mean Tiger was trying to preserve the legacy the PGA Tour. That's always been his platform. That's where and if the tour is devalued, then on some level people could possibly devalue his accountment. It's hard to imagine. You know, what he did, it will always stand the test of time, but you don't want the tour diminished, and you know, potentially this strengthens the tour.
I mean I said this previously, like that, if you take, if you set aside the moral argument, which is complex, but if you can, if you can eliminate that, this could be a huge win for the PGA Tour. You they still control the day to day bureaucracy, have access unlimited money. They can craft a global schedule that incorporates the best European tour events, and they can they can get back players that matter. Cam Smith matters Brooks Kopka
very much, matters Dustin Still. Could you know name a few others, Patrick reied, I mean, Bryson's played great in the majors like that. It doesn't serve the tour's interest not to have access to those players. So I think Tiger sees that Okay, we're this is going to strengthen the tour if it goes through. And even if even if the fift deal falls apart, they're gonna They're gonna wind up with private equity money and the tour can can can retrench. So I think I think Tiger he
never wants to be on the outside looking in. That's not a it's not his normal position. But he's a he's a bottom line guy. And I think he recognizes that the tour had to do something in here.
And and let's not kid ourselves. And Mark Steinberg is a huge player in the in the game of professional golf, given his relationship with and and and partnership with Tiger Woods. So I mean there's he's gonna have to get whatever it is he needs to get or wants to get out of some sort of deal as it relates to not only Tiger but his stable of players. I just I I still wonder where, where and what he's how involved he is in all of this.
Yeah, I mean that goes back to why I set the top up, making the players hole. I mean, Steinberg very clearly with with Tigers urging and nudging, refused to send anybody to live. The only the only Excel Sports management guy who went with Thomas Peters, and they parted ways of them as soon as he landed in Mexico. So this new co is now a chance for these players to get paid for their loyal t you know, Jimmy Dunn talked about granting them equity in the new company.
That could be very valuable over time. But what these guys want is cold hard cash. And there's no more rules anymore. It's if it's a for profit business, they can They could just give spot bonuses. Okay, Rory, here's one hundred million, John ram here's your seventy five million. This is your loyalty bonus. They can They can give all the middle class, the guys who are so up in arms at the players meetings. They can say, Okay, you know in twenty twenty three, you got a five
hundred thousand dollars stipend from the tour. Now it's three million dollars. How do you feel now? Now they're happy. They can they can be your appearance fees, there can be bonuses, there's all this stuff. The piff money now allows the players to be repaid for their loyalty, even Chess and Hadley, which is funny because he was so bitchy about it. But and so Steinberg needs that. He needs that because he told his players not to go, and he drew a line in the sand and they gave.
They left a lot of money on the table collectively. So this is important for the Steinberg's of the world and his players and the guys who didn't go. They need to get paid and the PIFF money allows them to do so.
It also allows the tour to will continue to work with sponsors that they want to work with, that they've been working with at an affordable rate. So if the number is twenty million that they need to get to per tournament, and PIFF puts in ten and that means the AT and T's or the Chevrons or whoever else you know, whoever else is coming in as you know, John Deere's and every but now it's there can still
there can be an affordable rate. You're back down to the eight to twelve to potentially you know, the fifteen million dollar range as opposed to asking these these sponsors for twenty million and you get a better product as a result. Do you think there there is some potential for a live versus tour team events and you know, to to cash to cash in on some sense of the the uh, the competitive spirit so to speak.
I mean that would be a blockbuster if if live endurors, why not have a couple of co sanctioned events and you know that people don't pay any attention to them, but they have these point standings on live for both the teams and individual players. Based on how they finish, they accrue points, and so you could say, okay, the top six live teams will then now take on six
teams of PGA Tour loyalists. And how how much fun would that be and how the tour players arrange that would be that'd be part of the backstory who who drafts who, all the allegiances and how much fun would those tournaments be? I mean there would be like a real energy around them, and the money could count for you know, the tour money list, and the PIFF could pay the whole perse and that could that would be a huge boost to live obviously, and I think it'd
be fun for fans. And there was language in the framework agreement that you know that the pg Tour and the European Tour will make this good faith effort to incorporate Team Golf into its schedule. It's quite possible to just cannibalize the idea if Live goes away, But if Live enders, I think it would be insane not not to have some of these tournaments where you bring it together and it just creates this this whole other subplot.
So yeah, and a whole other marketing component in terms of logos and merchandise, and it's a way for I mean, you know, and if you take if you take this ZERI Classic and see the popularity of that sub event within the tour already and you kind of expand upon that.
So so just to summarize, your biggest takeaway from reading this, you know, this term sheet, so to speak, is that it's got a long way to go to actually become a reality to you know that that that was your biggest takeaway, as wow, this is this is just the framework.
Yeah, because they're you know, when when Jay was talking about it, and Jimmy Dunn was talking about and even Yosser on CNBC, there were not a lot of specifics, so you you kind of felt like, are they holding back They don't want to say the wrong thing, But No, there are just no specifics period because they're not even in the document like they were just there's nothing like they basically just sketched out in the back of a cocktail napkin and that said, okay, here took it to
the lawyers to make this soun official. So yeah, there's there's clearly a long way to go.
And it was like everything negotiable except for like this, this and this otherwise, like everything's on the table.
Yeah, I mean if you just put those guys back in that cigar bar in London, it would not be easy to get to the finish line. Now you have all the player directors, you have all the pack you have Keith Pelly in the European Tour and all his constituents, you have the Department of Justice, you have Senator Blumenthal, like you've just added another a bunch of problematic you know, cooked into the kitchen and so it it's you know, you get you get ten tour players in the room.
They can't even just have what kind of pizza they want to order, like this is this is going to be really complex. So yeah, the key takeaways are they have a long way to go. There's not a lot of clarity. The future of live golf remains uncertain.
The and the future of j Monahan is uncertain. Future of Greg Norman is uncertain, future of like the future of the team component is uncertain. The future like it's just uncertain, uncertain, uncertain.
The only short thing is is yaser. But again, if they can't consummate this agreement, doesn't the piff is not a sure thing like that. They have to get this in the barn. I mean, so the PJ Tour will endure on some level, whether they bring in private equity money or or they wind up with the piff. I mean, it could even prosper. But the only thing we know is that they're gonna play golf next year under the PGA Tour umbrella, and everything else is a maybe. And
it's it's a fascinating moment. It it just it throws everything everything we thought we knew is is up for grabs.
You know, it seemed like, what about what about the Ryder Cup? It does loosen things upright for Captain's picks Ryder Cup to to it has to write at some at some point we can drop the whole you know.
I mean, this is the crazy thing is even this new this new era of cooperation, supposedly that the rules and regulations remain like this kind of religion. And so Keith Pelly said the day after all this news broke, you know, we only have two rules to play in in on the European team, and one of them is, you know, you have to be you have to be a member of the European Tour. And all the Live guys resigned so they won't have to pay their fines
and if they want to they can. They can reapply for membership, but they'd have to pay their fines, they'd have to serve their suspensions. And then Pelic said, but even then we'd have to look at it because the deadline for membership was May first, and they missed the deadline. It's like, really key, like how much more like bureaucratic can you be? So it doesn't there's not too many guys who were strong contenders to play. I mean Thomas Peters,
he's got a good case. He's been playing well this year. He was you know, thirty fourth in the world when he went to Live, so he was a contender. Burned Weisberger. He played in two thousand the last Ryder Cup, so he's he was a contender. You know, he hasn't been playing that well, I mean rom and Sergios. Yes, because because rom and Sergio went undefeated last time, and because rom Is advocated and he's so important the team, Sergio was in the mix. That's probably it. So three maybes.
But it's just funny the team. Yeah, well that's true. I mean it's just funny that they're, oh, they missed the deadline. We can't do anything about it, like really, like everything's up for grabs. The US has always been in a different, different scenario where the PGA of America grandfathered all the live guys in because they don't want to deal with it. They're like, here's Zach, this is
your problem, not ours. So they extended their their PG of American membership, so any of the any of the live guys can play, even those who resigned their tour membership because they were grand followed in by the pg of America. So now it's going to be up to Zach, and certainly it'll make it easier for him to pick Brooks and or Dustin because the walls have come down and they're not the bad guys anymore. But you know, Brooks is a sure thing whether he qualifies or not.
Dustin has not played well enough in the majors. He's played well week to week on live. But it's interesting because even that starting to change, like everyone was so quick to devalue the live victories and the live performances. I did see something. It was it was Kyle Porter, who's been very anti live, but he had a he had a list of players were on the bubble for the Ryder Cup and it was worldwide wins and he
included the live events. So it's like, all of a sudden, we're kind of upgrading the live events in this this new reality. So in that context, Dustin has two worldwide wins and he should be he should be a contender. I mean, Taylor Gooch is interesting because by any measure, he should probably be on the US team, but he's been so polarizing and he's been such a troll, and there's a lot of hard feelings around Taylor, and he was one of the guys who sued the tour, So
I don't think he'll get strong consideration. Brooks and Dustin kind of stayed above the fray. They weren't parties to the lawsuits. They haven't been talking to any trash on Twitter, and so I think I think that they would be welcome back. Goot, no, Patrick Reid know, so those are those are probably the only other guys who would be in the mix.
So what happens? What happens July eleventh?
What?
What? What's your sense?
A lot of political grand standing, A lot of mealy mouthed pronouncements from the witnesses. Now will Will Yasser even show up? I mean that they they were prepared lives lawyers are prepared to go to the Supreme Court trying to prevent him from being deposed by the Department of Justice because he, you know, all Romayan has this dual role where he's a member of He's a high ranking
member of the Saudi government. He's also maybe the world's most important businessman, and so as a as a sovereign, as a member of the sovereign you know, ruling party, he would probably be exempt from having to testify. As this business guy who runs a big oil company and who sponsored this this golf tour, they could probably compel him to testify. That was the early judgments from the lower courts saying, you know, that this falls. There's a
carve out. If you're running commercial activities, you can't you can't claim immunity. So but that was head to the Supreme Court. That was part of why why the PGA tour cried uncle, because that was gonna take two years to get the Supreme Court. And so his role is unknown. I think they have until July fourth to declare to respond to the invitation. Essentially, Jay Day Monahan's health is unknown. The only guy who wants to be there is Greg Norman. Like he would love that because he was he's been
marginalized in this process. He's had no voice, he's kind of been yeah, so he would love to be on Capitol Hill with all the cameras on him. And if you remember, you know he did this this big tour where he met with lawmakers and and this was set up by the lobbyists that live employees, and it was kind of a disaster because some of the lawmakers said they had some really harsh things to say about Norman afterwards,
and the quotes went around the world. So even though he was burned, he the guy's so he lusts after the spotlight. So of the three, he's the only one who wants to be there, whether the other two you know in Monahan al Ramayan, will be compelled and or feel like it's in their best interest. So the political theater is going to be fabulous. And I don't know. I wonder if I should even if I should make a run out to d C. But we'll talk about that another time, you and I, Matt. It's gonna be
it's gonna be interesting. Is it is.
Your book done?
Now?
Did you did? Is it done? Down? Do you still have roomed update?
Yeah? I stayed up last night working on it. I mean it's the publisher has committed taking this down to the wire. It doesn't go to print until mid August, so well after this stuff on Capitol Hill will play out after the Open Championship. After there's probably gonna be a World Ranking adjudication. So I'm constantly tweaking it. And it's so it's going to be up to the minute as much as you can be with a book that has to be printed and distributed. So yeah, no, I'm
still I had turned it in, but we uh. It's always a process, even in any scenario when when when you turn in a book you get it back at least twice. It goes through their copy editing, it goes through the legal review. You're always you're always vetting it and looking for you know, misplaced commas and stuff like that. So there's always going to be some time now, you know, Simon Schuster and Avid Reader Press, to their great credit, they they're like, this is this is too big a deal.
We have too much invested in this book. We want it to be as current as possible, so like it's institutionally we're taking it down to the last possible second so it's up to date.
An excerpt obviously, will be hitting the Firepit Collective dot com at some point soon, which I'm excited about.
Yeah, yeah, I already kind of know what I want to do for the first excerpt. It's going to be cool. I mean, the people have said, oh, you can just whisper.
It to me. You can just tell me his microphone on.
We'll let Connie Chung the Nuke Gangridge just whispered you have. All the cameras were rolling and they're wearing microphones. You know. Some folks have said, oh, do does this hurt the book? I think it helps it because there's so much context, like how do we get to this moment and the first excerpt, we'll dive into that, and and the things that Jaymonhan did or did not do along the way become even more paramount. And you know, I know.
Enough to know about what you've said to me through the reporting process to know the book is definitely going to benefit from all of this.
Yeah, and it's cool. The whole story is in one place. You know, we don't know the exact ending, but we we've just got a huge clue. So that's my dog whining in the background. I guess it's time to wrap up the podcast, according to Wante, but yeah, this is we didn't even get a chance to really talk about very quickly, Matt, because we tease at the top, like all the fun things that we're working on at the
Firepit Collective. Give the listeners a little teaser on some of the stuff that's you know, there's these long form videos they're long ingestation Like we've been working on this stuff for a while. We haven't been able to leak it out, but what can people look forward to?
Final letters are being made to our Dublin travel show as we speak. We are under the hood on building out Belfast, which I'm excited about. We're also releasing a little sizzle about the project we have going to Pasa Tiempo jim Orbina restoring the original Alistair Mackenzie Greens after decades, almost one hundred years of sand splash and wash out from you know, different components of mother nature and top
dressing and all that goes with all that. There were virtually, you know, very few pinnable locations if you're gonna run them at modern day green speeds at pasta tempo. So that's that's an incredible project that that I'm really excited about, that we're excited about. We have a couple that we actually can't talk about. We you know, we've already released the sizzle of Cobbs the building of Gamble Sands, David McClay kidd building a second course there, going back up
to Brewster, Washington next week. We've been out and we're documenting some of what's happening at Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia
and creating a sizzle video there. Canal Shores in Chicago is another project that we we've been on site for and we're we're looking to to document some of what's going to be happening there and and you know, obviously we put out the Maggie Hathaway feature really exciting about what's happening in Los Angeles to that nine whole Part three course and the you know, upwards of fifteen to eighteen million dollars being put into to that facility, which I think is what a nice tribute to a woman
who I've just gotten to learn a lot about over the course of the last you know, a few months and beyond. And wow, what a powerhouse. You know, I talk about Susie Whaley or maryon Hollins or some of these other women who have had a big impact in the world of golf. Mega Maggie Hathaway is was all world. I wish I got to get got to meet her.
Yeah, and one of our secret projects. My shoes are still dirty. I'm coming in hot from a secret spot in San Francisco and I can't say any more than that, but it was today and yeah, I mean, just just to give people a better idea, like these are all really cool golf course projects, restorations, new builds, whatever they may be, and we're kind of some of them are chronicling from the very very beginning and going back over
time to see how it evolves. And you're there with the architects and the builders and the guys and the bulldozers and you know where I was today, they were hydro seeding. They're blasting, you know, thousands and thousands of grass seilings all over the It's like cool a lot and it's education for us and the one There are all different projects different parts of the country, but the connective tissue is the passion. Like the people behind these projects are just so into it and it's all about
making great golf and they're public. I mean, Gamble Sands is just waiting for people to make that pilgrimage. Positive Tempo to me is one of the most important golf courses in the world because it's prime Alistair mackenzie that anybody can play. It's half the price of Pebble Beaches.
It's not cheap, but it's doable. You don't have to stay at the lodge, you know, it's it's not it's way cheaper than Pinehurst than any of these other citadels that really exclude a big chunk of the population because they're just so pricey and Pasa Tempo is a dream, and so for us to be out there as these iconic greens are being rebuilt and we're we have the cameras rolling and we can bring the whole process to life like that's going to be so cool for people to get to watch all those.
Had to happen. I mean those greens, you know, ninety years old, drainage issues, you know, pinnable locations, and it being as important as it is as you just described, Alistair McKenzie accessible the membership. What they did, and you know, we've been following along for well over a year, what they did for the greater good of their course, the future membership for anybody who's going to rock up and play that golf course ten years from now, thirty years
from now, fifty years from now. I give him a lot of credit. That took guts and took a lot of cohesive conversation and collaboration communication. Justin mannon the superintendent, there was critical Scott Hoyt, the former GM, Steve Vargo's there now, the current GM ken Woods is the head pro.
There's a lot of really smart people on their board, the decision makers, and Jim orbina Is talk about passion and an understanding of McKenzie and the drawings he has access to and what they're doing USGA, you know, greens from a drainage standpoint, they're able to follow the layering and the aging of the sand and dirt as they cut into that, into those those greens, and they're able to see the original undulation of those greens based on on the sort of the aging layers of the land
of the sand, and they can still make, you know, judgment calls, and they can still sort of compromise based on what they what they ultimately want to do. But this is going to be a fascinating reveal for architectural geeks or or agronomy geeks, for pasta tempa alistair McKinsey geeks, for golf geeks considering what that golf course is and
what it means to golf in America. I put it in the conversation with the Pebbles and the Pinehurst number twos and in terms of accessible, but then also the pine Valleys and Chicago Golf Clubs and National Golf Links of America. This is this is one of the this is one of the ones that I think are way way underrated in terms of where it comes in on
the rankings. I see some of the rankings and where positive tiempo is as it relates to some of the other Jabbroniville golf courses that are in the top one hundred, and I'm like, it's an embarrassment. It's an embarrassment.
Gauzer rants or something.
It's a bond, like it's like a joke.
And yeah, I mean it's it's up there with Augusta National and Cyprus Point and Royal Melbourne. I mean, anyone can go play it, like I know, that's what's so amazing, and it's epic. Oh it is, it really is.
And it's going to get even better because now Justin, who's an incredible superintendent, is going to be able to run them real fast on fair and pinnable locations. So it's going to get it's just going to get more interesting and more fair and more and more fun. But it's not necessarily going to get you know, get people like, oh it's going to be too easy. No it's not. Now they can put pin. Now they can tuck pins and have it actually be fair. So yeah, that's that's
one of the things I'm most excited. I mean, every one of them is so different. It's development, restoration, rent, innovation. You know, it's a little bit of you know, it's municipal, it's community assets, it's you know, we're we're we're diving deep into all these different projects. And I don't think that this is going to end in twenty twenty three. I think this is going to be a big part of what we do as a company going forward, in additional,
in addition to some of the other stuff. So yeah, it's this is a this is a good time to be doing what we're doing, storytelling around some very interesting and compelling stories. So thanks for all that you're doing keeping us updated on on this fight for the soul of the game. And and meanwhile it's fun to collaborate on some of this other stuff as well.
Yeah. Absolutely, I've seen some of the rough cuts on these things. People are going to love it. Like the Ireland stuff is so rich. And you know, you've been been on the travel beat for thirty years basically, and there's a lot of people do in travel, but you were there first, and you have this this depth of knowledge and uh, these relationships and I mean you're practically an honorary Irishman at this point, So oh, Janella, like, we're gonna I're gonna have to rename it.
Yeah, well that's part of the Dublin thing. I go find my family heritage. And would you believe that my great great grandfather, Michael Boland farmed, rented, and then bought and farmed eighteen acres of land within a stone's throw of Doonebeg golf course. So fucking Donald Trump was my neighbor.
Got eighteen acres. We could have put an incredible little part three course in the dude.
I'm gonna do it. We're gonna held out my grandma. Apparently my grandma tried to buy it and she wasn't a citizen at the time, so she she couldn't get it. But bringing my family back in a couple of weeks and we're going to go find it.
I love it. Well, that's great, al right, So I just a little teacher too. Lots of stuff happening here at the fire pit. Thanks for making to the end of this podcast. We appreciate all you listeners. We will keep coming at you. I'm gonna I had to get the book done. I'm gonna get back to writing my weekly asked Allen columns, so we can look for those, and lots of lots of fun stuff percolating here. So for Matt Janella, this is Alan Schipnuk. That was another
Fire Drill podcast. Thanks for listening, and this is the end. Goodbye.
I'm bed big again.
I played the wind, made a fortune when my ship came and I ran the table and never thought I could fall down the wind and time hit me. Lack of cannon the ball, and now I can't I shake this, losing the stream.
Every road I take is a dead end street.
I got thoughts in my head.
I can't give them joy and not the thing what I'm thinking about. I kind of thoughts in my head. I can't get them out. Trying not to think what I'm thinking about.