Fire Drill 071: Desert LIV-ing

But it's just not in their DNA. I got thoughts in my head. Can't get John nothing think what I'm thinking about my head, can't get them out, not think what I'm thinking about. Hello, this is Alan ship Knuck back from their Fire Drill podcast with Michael Bamberger. Mike, thanks for doing this as always, it's a pleasure. Or how is the travels for you? Yes, I'm coming in hot from Tucson. I was at the live event and

it was edifying. You know, I've even though I've been there so many times now, and I'm always learning more about how it works. And that's their models constantly evolving and they're making changes and a lot of us. I know a lot of fans on Twitter don't seem tuned into the results on live, and I don't think you are either, Michael, which is fine. I'm not here to shave anybody. But as as a business story, it's utterly fascinating,

even if you're not into the golf. I mean, this is they're gonna be, They're gonna be at the MBA program at Stanford, They're gonna be talking about this disruption for decades. It's this happens in businesses, but rarely is at this public and with this much star power and all the geopolitical overtones. Like it's just a fascinating thing. So I wrote a story for a fire pit collective

dot com, posted yesterday after the tournament ended. It's gotten a big response online because people are just I think they're just happy to learn something new, because we feel like, I mean, even me as close as I am to all of this, all the stuff happened in the shadows, you know, it's all that, the conversations, all the negotiations, all the deal making, the betrayals, like it was kind of at of sight and then little bits leak out

here and there. But so it's fun to I mean, I talked I don't know how many players I talked to, but easily over a dozen. And UM got a key live executive on the phone for about half an hour, and that's really hard to do, you know, in the midst of the antitrust lawsuits and everything, everybody's running scared, doesn't want to talk to any reporters. UM. So it was just it was it was great for me personally to learn a lot more about what's happening out there.

And I think, you know, readers have appreciated that that insight that I can pass along. It's a very edifying piece of journalism that you wrote, and it's one that you're not going to read anywhere else except on our website because there's no other reporter who is devoted to

actually getting the story as you are. One of the probably my single biggest I'm gonna tell you what, my biggest seakeaway always from it Allan and then and then you wreckt My biggest seakeaway from that is that despite the enormous sophistication of the Saudi business leaders who are putting this thing together, is there is a fly by night element to this even with the hundreds of millions

and bill actually literally billions of dollars invested. And what I took away from your story is they don't really know what they're doing. And I don't mean that possibly or negatively, it's just that was my takeaway. Is that a fair unfair? You tell me that's totally fair? Another way to phrase it. And this is like Nicholson made this point in his press conference. I didn't put it in the story, but he said, things change, things evolved, and we had we were nimble enough and our leadership

is flexible enough to respond to that. You know that like in his mind, this is good governance that they're willing to um to make these changes on the fly. As you say, I mean, for instance, they have kind of this. I mean, they have a ten year plan and the way and what they're doing this year was really going to be for next year. But they felt like,

we have so much momentum. We've we've got we've signed more players, and we expected to let's go all in and and speed things up, and that's created some of this um discord. I guess would be one word for it. But most of the players are like, this is great. I mean we got to we're trying to get somewhere, and the faster we can get there the better. So

your your response is completely valid. The Live side would would look would would point to that as as a good leadership where you're willing to to um to update your plans based on on how things are playing out on the ground. So um, But it's both views are valid. I mean there is an element of like they are winging it and can be good and bad and by um, you know, to accelerate their business plan by a year. I think it was it was certainly the right choice.

I mean Live is crying out for an identity beyond the Saudi money and the team thing I think has a chance to be really compelling. I mean I've been on I've been there now these last two events. I

actually I like the uniforms. I think it's a really cool look and just for me personally, it helps it burns into my brain who's on which team because you know they've changed a lot since last year, and there is a very palpable camaraderie amongst the teams, Like they play their practice rounds together, they all set up on the range together, they have dinners together and the way they've organized it's it's not an accident, you know, like the All Assie team, like they were throwing a rugby

ball around and having fun in the lobby of the Rich Carlton. You know, these are just fun loving characters and you know Kevin Nas Ironheads. It's kind of this pan Asian team. And obviously Danny Lee got the win yesterday and you could see his teammates they, I mean,

they look like they were emotional about it. Danny Lee was all choked up and we hadn't won anywhere in the world since twenty fifteen, and he said, like this team has changed the way I play golf because I can't take a single shot off because I know my teammates need me. And it's on a very basic level. I mean, the most stressed out I've been on a golf course in the last year was you and I, Michael, when we played the Uncle Tony Invitational. Abandoned because I

wanted to play well for you. And it's a very it's a very human feeling. When you have a teammate you care more, you know, if I'm off playing and just some for some buddies and we're playing for ten bucks. If I played bad, it's on me. They're happy I played bad because they're gonna win more money. And you know, you get down on yourself, but you're not letting anyone else down. But as soon as you have a teammate,

the emotion is so different. And even these players who are guaranteed money and they've had these long careers in some cases like they're feeling that on a very human level. And I think I think it's kind of cool. And as you know, there's there's an all Latin American team, there's you know, the Westwood Poulter Stenson, you know, it's these old Rider Cup of War horses, Like they've they've

grouped these teams in ways that make sense. You have an all South African team, um, And you used to see this on the European tour, right, like all the Spaniards would would travel together and eat together and play practice rounds together, and then they would they would use these teams in the Ryder Cup because these guys had this palpable chemistry in this history and this the shared language and culture, and that was one of the keys to the European Writer Cup success is that they took

these these small, bonded units of players and they use that to their advantage and Live is kind of doing the same thing. And so whether the fan at large will ever be invested in in these results, that's the ultimate question. But the players are and that's a big

step forward because it's gonna be hard. It would be hard for the fans to ever care if the players did not care, but they definitely do, and so that was an important first step and I think that justifies Live speeding up its model here to get more buying from the players and to get them literally more invested in their team. So that's a success for Live again, and I think it does help blunt the criticism of all these guys have guaranteed money, they don't care. They're

just going through the motions. Like if you're on the grounds, you can feel how much they care and you can see it. And I mean like on Friday when the first round ended, you know, all the players come come in at the same time, and so it's kind of a melee around the scoring area because I won't have to turn in their cards. And you know, Phil Michelson saw Brendon Steel and he's like, how do we do? What's your number? You know? It was cute like um and you can see the players are looking for each

other in that area. They want to no, I mean, there's scoreboards out there, but you always want to get that final confirmation. And so the players are definitely invested in the team thing. Again, the TV numbers weren't great. Whether that's the ultimate question is whether the fans can get there, But I think I think they made the

right call. It's another thing that comes out very clear from very clearly from your story that's on our website today, that they're gonna lean way more into this team concept than we even thought thought originally. And I guess that's also very not a guess. It's very much tied into how the s audience can actually make some money from this venture. But alan just from your own observations or

from reporting or otherwise. The tradition of team competition is an incredibly rich one, whether it's national pride in the Olympics or city pride like in baseball, football, basketball, hockey, the writer up of course continent versus country. Has there ever been at case where teams have sort of and I understand that they've done a very good job, very clever of putting these groups of like minded players in similar backgrounds together. But in terms of trent but that's

okay for them. How does that translate to fan interest? Is there is there a way to actually do that? Can you really create fan interest when the starting point is we're getting the team together in the interest of making money. Yeah, So that the interesting thing. The crowds and Tucson are pretty good. I mean it's obviously Phoenix

Open is a long time tours stop. Tucson used to have, you know, the Tucson Open, which our colleague Jeff Ogilvie one that was his first win, you know, Phil one in Tucson when he was in college to launch his career. It was kind of a minor stop on the tour, but a lot of great players won there, including Arnold Palmer and others that went away. They got the the World match play at the same course to gallery course for a period of years. But you know, they played

in February and they almost snowed a few times. It was not it's not an easy course to walk. But the crowds were good because Tucson has a golf history and for instance, the Fireballs, which is you know, Sergio Garcia and a Banswer and um you know two other guys who whose native tongue is Spanish. They had a good gallery of Hispanic fans out there, and you could hear some of the some of the conversations, you know, almost like there was some of it was in Spanish.

And so in that very small sample size, the model worked. You know, they group these players together because they they're all sort of representing Latin American in some way, and the fans found them and they cared about them in a way that they wouldn't have otherwise. And I thought that was interesting. Now, um, you know, I'm sure there's some kids in Australia or South Africa who care about the Rippers or the Stinger because they're all Australian or

they're all South African. And uh, you know, if you grew up in a certain era and in your your North Stars were, um, you know, Charles Schwartzel and Lui Ustaisen and now they're teammates, um and they've been your favorite players for a long time, You're probably going to

be a little more invested in that team. Um So, and you know the same thing if you're an English fan of a certain age and Lee Westwood and Ian Poulter where you're gods like and now they're playing together, and you know they have Sam Horsefield, who's another another British gent. So I don't know, I don't know what the scale of it is. I think they will pick off some some fans because they've made it very tribal,

and I think that was smart. Interestingly, it's it's the top Americans that that don't really have an identity so much, you know, because um, but I think Phil's kind of low key, going for like a West Coast vibe. You know that's some Brendan Steele's a California guy, but um, you know that like like Bryson's team is an absolute mishmash. It's it's Paul Casey, it's uh narbon Lahiri uh and um who's their fourth player? Now I'm drawn a blank. But there's no natural kinship there right, like oh in

this Paul Casey, who's an English chant. It's like there, it doesn't quite fit them. You know, who are they? What are they? And even even their names the crushers so that well, they're not really long hitters so that

doesn't work either. Like some of these teams were clearly struggling for an identity, and I don't know how they're going to solve that except through maybe through attrition, you know if um, I mean, I'd love for Bryson to go all in and get three players who who just swing for the fences, and um, whether they could actually score and play real golf would be would be fascinating. But um, you know, if you're gonna call yourself the crushers, you can't have an Indian guy who who drives at

two sixty like Lea hear he does. It just doesn't quite work, Like what is who are you? What are you? So they haven't they haven't fully baked it out. But UM, I don't know. It's it's gonna be um to me. It's kind of fun and funny and the whole thing, you know, I will say, the the merchandise, it sells in small batches, like the the Bubba's team. The range Goats has a really good logo and they have really

fun colors. And in Mexico all their stuff was sold out by even the pro am day, and it was gone in Tucson really fast too, Like they clearly need more quantity. Um. Some of the stuff has become kind of a kitchy collector's item in a way, and so I think they will be able to sell some merchandise and that that becomes a revenue stream. It's not a big one, but it's something. And um, some some of the logos and you know, are kind of awful and I don't think anyone wants to wear them, but some

of them are well done. So um, the identities and the branding of the teams has potential, it really does, but it's still a work in progress. Did you get to catch Trinity the telecast and what were your impressions of it? Yeah, so when I'm in the press room working, they have a telecast on. There's no sound, which is a kind of my preferred way to watch calf Anyway, I can't really comment on the commentary, but it is the irony is that the live golf telecast is what

golf Twitter demands and bitches about every weekend. You know that you're lucky to be immune from the discourse, Michael, but a big, a big faction of golf Twitter is there just to complain about TV coverage. I mean, every Saturday and Sunday. It's just endless and not unjustified. But I was talking to someone who's part of the live broadcast. Well, he's behind the scenes, he's one of the shot callers, and he said they average one hundred and fifty shots

per hour and they refuse to show tappens. They never show tappens because they think it's boring. Unless a guy misses it, they'll show it, but otherwise notes it's one hundred and fifty real shots and putts and that they've they've looked into it. And on CBS and NBC the average is fifty to sixty an hour, and so the live telecast is like bang bang bang, like it's shot too shot, two shot. And of course there's not the commercial load because they don't have commercial sponsors yet, so

that's not totally a fair fight. But um, you know, I was especially watching on Friday, that's when I was in front of my computer a little bit more. And that's just that's the streaming version when there really is no commercials, and it's, um, it's a dream for a golf fan, and it's just there's no there's no filler.

I mean, they are just showing golf shot after golf shot, and on an interesting desert course where guys were hitting you know, offline and getting in trouble and there's a lot of runouts and really challenging short game shots and there's drive all part fours. It was fun to watch. I mean just as a golf fan, like I like

watching camp Smith play golf. I like watching Dustin Johnson, I like watching a bands or you know, there's these guys are mega talents and so if you can you know, if you can in a silo, in a vacuum, if you can declutter your brain from all the other things, and you just like watching really skilled golfers. It really interesting golf shots. Like it was great fun. But you know, the numbers haven't been there so far, and you know this year, their their ratings are very low, and um so,

I guess I'm slightly in a minority opinion. But the U I had that exact moment alan watching just a little bit of the telecast. You see a guy over a shot, You see a caddy and a player talking about a shot. You see you know, you see a player watching a putt roll to the hole and is it in or out? Is it going to fallow or not. And it looked just like a pH two or event except for the shorts. There were definitely moments like that,

highly skilled golfers playing golf. We've been watching that on two baby, literally all all our lives um so at some level it is just another form of golf, you know. And then I think the question is are you are you going to care? Can they make you care? Can you make yourself care? Are you so distracted by you know, it's sort of like what Rory says. You know, we're not just competing with Live, We're competing with TikTok. There's

so many demands for our time. It's like and I understand that people were you know, I wrote, I watched one episode of the Netflix series. I didn't think it worked at all, the Jordan justin one, and I consider, like we all do my time to be valuable. I don't care to watch anymore. So I wrote up the one and said that's it for me. Now. People have told me that there are many other better ones. But the point here is that there is tremendous competition for

our time, and that's going to be. As you say, there's a lot of moments when it's just watching really skilled golfers playing golf shots. But can you make us care about the results? Not you, but can can the Saudi organizers? Can Live Golf make us really care about the outcome? That's all. It's going to be an enormous challenge for this league, and I don't understand really why on Sunday they can't find another way to change the

format so not everybody is finishing at once. Yeah, it's interesting because you know, the inspiration for everything Live Golf does is the Premier Golf League. And I've read through the one hundred and sixteen page prospectus a number of times, which Live leaned on heavily. And they had a shotgun start for the first two rounds, but on the final round they went to traditional you know, everyone goes off

the first team leaders go last. Recognizing that you kind of want that traditional drama, that's a departure for Living It's probably a mistake. I mean, they do send the leaders off last, so the leaders will go off one the guys the nearest pursuers go off too, so they they're trying to get the drama on the final holes. But even so it's I mean That's a another thing.

I like you talk about the attention span. I like that all the players start at the same time and everyone's on the course at the same time, and the whole thing takes, you know, four and a half hours and then you're done. It's a dream work day for uh, for the for those of us in the typing trade, and I think the fans like it too. I mean, to beat a tour event in the sun for ten

hours is that's not easy to do. And if you're you know, we talked abouts on a previous podcast, but all your players are that you want to watch, you're out there and you just have to find them instead of you know, waiting for a morning in an afternoon wave.

So that's one to your point that the and I was talking to you know, I have I have four teenagers, and we were just talking about how the media has changed, and I was sort of lamenting that, uh, you know, the things that I value, the the long form, the richly reported pieces, whether it's on golf er, on anything. And I know you're the same kind of reader, Michael, and we have the same taste. And Olivia, my nineteen

year old, she's like, that's dead nobody cares. She's like, if you can't tell it in a sixty second TikTok, nobody cares. It was like so harsh and funny, but obviously true for a growing percentage of humanity. And so, I mean, to live's credit, they've tried to adapt to that, like let's give you a more easily consumable products. It's three days instead of four, it's four and a half

hours instead of twelve. Everybody's out there at once, and you know, a lot of these things are held against it as as a as a critique, like, oh, it's not real competition, it's not saving two holes, and shotgun start is for you know, it's for charity fundraisers at your local hospital. But they're sort of trying to acknowledge that the tastes have changed among the consumer, and it's

they're being belittled for it. But if if my entire market research are the people in my house, than um I would say they're they're onto something, But um, I don't know. It's it's an interesting debate, But you're right, getting the average golf fan who's who's used to the traditional venues in the traditional way of doing it. Can they get them to cross over. I did a speaking thing at UM at Stanford Golf Course not too long ago,

and it was sixty people in the room. They were having a member guest at Stanford UM, so a learned crowd and obviously serious golfers. And I asked, like, how many of you have watched a live telecast? And I was surprised. It was probably a dozen hands went up. That was more than I expected. UM, and they you know, there was a curiosity factor there that you know now they're in year two. I mean people are people either like it or they don't UM, I guess if they can.

And this is this is one of Live's fundamental problems right now. Is it was built on star power, like like, let's cater to the the biggest names and give them what they want so they'll come and play on our tour. But it's the journeyman who are winning. I mean Charles Howe that was he was a cute winner and it meant a lot to him and he contended again. Danny Lee,

you know, he was choked up. He was emotional, like the idea that these guys don't care, you know, Danny Lee unable to speak after the Win would would probably counter that narrative. But you're not going to build a breakaway league on Charles Howe and Danny Lee. I mean they need, they need Phil to find it. Bryson is playing terrible golf. Camp Smith, you know he's been okay. Dustin's kind of cruising along like uh, you know Brooks.

I would say those five guys could really move the needle if you have Brooks, Dustin, Camum, Phil and and DJ like, they could break through the clutter. And they're so compelling to watch and we're invested in their stories that as golf fans, I think they could make a difference. But the Danny Lee's and the Charles Howe's is as charming as they are. I mean that's a problem for Live. They need, they need their biggest names to start bringing it,

and they just haven't really. I mean, Dustin and Cam and Brooks each one once last year, but they've they've kind of faded away, and so I don't know that there's definitely you don't want the journeyman to carry Live Golf. I mean, now it is, it's kind of it's again

how we talk about things. You have this kid, Taylor Moore I'm not really a kid, but a guy trying to break through at Valspar and that was totally celebrated like this is and I see this in my mention, this is what this is what the PGA tors about. It's guy's changing their life and getting the break they always needed. And that's why it's so compelling. And I

think we all agree with that. But if a guy like Danny Leeve hasn't won anywhere in seven years and this is a career altering performance and he's found a purpose, like people kind of shrug and go, he's he's He's just want a bunch of money, That's why he cares. It's like, I mean, his career just got jumpstarted in a huge way, but it's not celebrated in the way that that sort of an unknown winning on the PGA Tours. So um, that's another perception problem for live golf. A

couple that triggers a lot alan Um. One of the ones. Your four teenagers in the house are an incredibly important dynamic for golf because they're they're very interested, bright kids, interested in the world. They're not they're active in their own sports. They're not golfers, but golf traditionally has been able to take in the ordinary sportsman for the four Majors and for the Ryder Cup especially, no matter matter what, what what their interests in golf. And and that's why

those numbers have been those numbers those events. Is anyone your age or my age would know, they're a crescendo. They lead, they build, they build, they build, and then they explode. And and what you're four teenagers saying is we don't have the time or the patients for that. So it's an enormous challenge for golf going forward. CBS is finding this with their Master's Cell guests, you know,

the Masters is the ultimate example of that. To really appreciate Sunday afternoon, you have to be along for the ride to some degree, Thursday, Friday Act one definitely Saturday act too, where you get to know the protagonists and then you're all in for the third act on Sunday.

But if the nature of storytelling has changed so fundamentally that that doesn't hold up anymore, like as might be the case in the ship Nuck House and millions of other houses, then that's that is a basic problem for golf. In this narrow sense, it's a basic problem for golf in the broadcasting of golf to millions of people. Now as you and I, you know, for me, that's not golf,

that's some little sliver of golf. Even like when Jeff was in our podcast the other day and he's talking about, you know, the golfing celebrity and their ability to sell the big headed driver in the hot ball and the Titanum chef and all the rest. Even that's just a sort of sliver of golf. But but what what you're talking about illustrates a huge problem for golf, for golf on TV going forward. Well, and even Augusta National. I mean, you know, we know how Jerry Attrick that membership is,

but they get it. Like you know, the the guys kicking around beach balls an amen corner last year was a curiosity. Um, you know, dude perfect, But that was an attempt by Augusta National to reach all the people under thirty out there who don't want to hear the tricky pianio music. And they don't get they don't get teary eyed thinking about Gene Sarazen's five Wood, you know, like there and if I don't know, if you saw

this little teaser they released on social media. Yeah, you know, they have kind of these hipsters hanging out, yeah, having like a little masters party. Like, whether you liked it or not, it was at least Augusta National has realized we can't keep selling ourselves the same way because it's old and it's tired. And how about how about fred Ridley last year? Are you talking about the dude perfect? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I mean, so they're listening to theirs. You know, they all have grandkids the age of my kids, and they've gotten the message like we've got to reinvent ourselves a little bit. Um. So it's just an interesting time. I mean, we've talked about this a lot offline, how the golf media has changed, and it's, um. You can lament it or you can just try and keep up with the times.

And it's certainly um. You know, Like I don't know if you've if you've noticed Kevin val van Waalkenberg since he went to No Lang Up, he's been writing game stories just as tweets. And you know, I read his mail back. So he's been writing game stories that just as a series of tweets, not even posting on the website, but just you know, a thread of of twenty or thirty or forty tweets that bring to life some aspect.

And you know, he talked about one of his mailbags, and I was just talking to Kevin on the phone the other day and we went through it a little a little bit as well that He's like, well that by the time you get that edited and posted, it's you know, it's nighttime, and then they're playing golf again the next day, and it's just kind of it feels like it's, um, you lose the audience and whereas you can just put up on Twitter more with more immediacy

and and folks, well, we'll consume it, and we'll get them excited that you're there, and maybe they'll they'll they'll be inspired to look into more of things you have done. But you know, for you and I to imagine going too, I'm going to get the masters together a couple of weeks, like to not write every day and not to put it on our website and try and you know, do a more traditional, longer, longer form story. Like it's hard, it's hard to imagine a world where we didn't do that.

But you know, maybe we're just dinosaurs. I don't know. We write for people who like the pleasure sitting down and reading something, and Kevin knows two. But what Kevin's figuring out is that they're reading in a different way. And your four kids are giving that message all the time. Alan, in your week there, did you talk to anybody affiliated with LIV who thinks the rollback, the so called rollback of the golf ball, would be a good thing for golf. I can kind of guess the answer, but I don't

want to get Yeah. Yeah, you know, we know that LIVE is predisposed to attract the rebels, right, the non conformists, and they're not stoked about the rollback. I mean, they're

trying to sell an entertainment product. And you know one player who I'm not going to say my name because we were just kind of bullshitting, but like I think gonna make us use a gutta percha, Like he's like, this is ridiculous, Like what is the usj doing that they're living in the nineteenth century, which, of course I don't fully agree that analysis, but um, you know, if you're if your mot if, your motto is golf but louder, you're not going to be in favor of a quieter game,

a more contemplative game. It just doesn't it doesn't work. So, um, it really plays right into their hands. Yeah, totally. So. No, I didn't hear much support for the rollback, but um, you know that Live is getting more into the governance side of things. You know, last year was just a chaotic launch in so much there's so many moving parts. But they're you know this player meeting that I staked

out in the lobby of the Rich Carlton. I mean, they they're going to go to a drug testing policy this year, which I have to do if their players want to play in the Olympics and those sort of things. They're instituting a slow play policy, which every professional tour needs. Um. So that was funny you had where the one guy said, yeah, it's just effective. Is that j tours watch out exactly. But honestly, the pace of playout there, I think is

pretty good. Um, I'm always surprised, like I'm doing something. I'm like, oh man, they're gonna be finishing here soon. Like I mean, they're playing about four and a half hours, where on tour it feels like it's taken five and a half. So um. But the point is they're they're they're they're introducing more structure and more real decision making. So at some point they can they're going to have to have this discussion, do we want to abide by

the rollback or not? UM. I think ultimately they're going they will have to because Live Golf knows that it's a lot of its credibility is going to be determined by how the players perform in the major championships, and if all the tour guys are playing the USGA by the USGA rules, which will be you know, that's what the majors are going to do, right, They're they're not

going to defy the United States Golf Association. So if if the Masters and the PGA in the British Open have the roll back ball, the Live guys can't rock up those weeks. Haven't played a different ball most weeks, and so I think ultimately they'll be in lockstep with whatever the tour does, grudgingly, but they're not going to hide their disdain. But I you know, that's one of the that's one of the fascinating subplots is both Live and the PGA Tour don't have to follow this local rule.

They can do what they want as an organization, but I think they're going to have to mirror each other. And I think Lives of course going to take its cues from the PGA Tour because the ultimate proving grounds has become the majors and you don't want to put yourself a disadvantage there. So I think they'll be grumbling, but ultimately they'll go along with whatever the tour does.

Alan just as a quick aside, and then I want to they do have another question for you, but just as a quick aside, what do you think about the idea of the USJ and the RNA trying to develop the ball just for the four Majors where Pebble Beach and the Old Course area and many others would still have meaningful part AUGUSTA National would have would be meaningful, and then maybe try to sell that ball down the

road to the PGA Tour as well. I just think it's so problematic because these guys are so highly optimized with their equipment and to play the game a certain way, you know, forty eight weeks a year and then the other and then four weeks a year to have to learn different trajectories, different carry distances, tweak your equipment, different shafts, different whatever, and those are the four most important weeks.

I don't like it. I mean, that would be essentially if if basketball for the NBA Finals just raised the rims six inches, which would probably make the game more interesting. And the players are skilled enough, they would they would get they would be able to they'd be able to play the game, but it would be different, and you know, all of a sudden, the shooting percentage would drop dramatically and they'd be brick City and it would be like, what's the point. I mean, I just now you're now

you're really creating two different games. And you know, Mike Clayton, he we had a we had a whole conversation offline about about this stuff, and he said, well, this that's exactly what happened with the British ball. You know, people forget that this did happen. There was true bifurcation in the game forty years ago when they introduced this different ball through the RNA, which is different from the USGA, and players had to learn a different ball and they

were able to do it. But that was before track Man and that was before a lot of um equipment advances, and so it could work. I mean, if you told the guys you can't play the Masters unless you play this ball, They're going to play that ball and someone someone's gonna shoot to seventy two and win the golf tournament. I mean it would happen, but I think he would on some in some level and diminished the Majors because it would there'd be so many guys being like, what

this just doesn't feel. This is not the golf I know, is not the golf I've grown up. This is not the skill set that I've honed. Um. And maybe that's a that's a that's a new school view. But I mean when you it's funny to me still, even though I've seen it for a while when when guys are playing practice rounds they have, you know, their manager or their caddy. They're carrying their track man. They set it down for every shot now and even in the practice

rounds like they've got these little sling things. They carry their their launch monitors in and um, every shot of every practice round and pro am is on the track man. And you know, we talked about this with Hailer and Jeff Ogilvion need a force. I mean for the for the old school guys like that that it's it's horrific,

like it makes their their faces melt. But again, times change and habits change, and so I don't I don't like the idea of of of making the players learn something new and adapt just for those four weeks, which are the ones that really matter. What do you think, I mean, would you be in favorite? I mean favorite? I think it would be neat. I think would actually

elevate the majors um. I think in tennis they've got different balls for all the different surfaces, and I think we were so focused on what the players want, um, But I think what the fan wants is for us to see them playing golf as we play golf, which is it's I mean, now, you're a long hitter, but on any part five that you and I have played many over the years, if you bust two, maybe you'll be in a green side trap. It's not three would four iron two or part five that's not a par five.

So if you had a ball that would reintroduce the actual concept of a par five, the long part four, the long part three. I think I think that would be a real positive for golf. And if and if it only happened at the four Majors, the special and the others were viewed more as entertainment, I'd be I think it would be cool. Yeah, it's these macro issues are so interesting. But did you have a chance to

watch Jordan Spieth the Jordan's Spief experience on Sunday? I mean that it's just never boring, Like he looks like he's shooting forty for any nine holes of golf he plays. You actually can't believe when you look at a borders, look at a boardings, he's eight under nine under a could possibly win the tournament. It's just bizarre, actually bizarre. I don't see how this particular golf, these plane could possibly hold up at Augusta National well. And he has

he has his period. Not that we're not rooting for him, because we are. We are, I know, and like he hit it, it's just he's so mental. I mean, hit a bunch of greens and regulation on Sunday, but then he missed three of the last four, just like you know bay Hill. He had all those one puts and then he missed all those puts coming down the stretch

and um, seventy first hole really tough. Part three at Valve Spars flags it best shot of the day and missus like what a six seven foot or like Jordan, it's exhausting, it's painful, and I got I got one, I got one more ball. Question for you, hopefully know a lot of people. What what did you see Bryson's joke thing about, you know, his proposal for the USGA and then he swings like Grandma, yeah I did what? What? What? What did you think of that? Bryson is so fascinating.

I mean I've actually been talking to him a fair amount all these events. You know, some guys don't want to talk about anything bright. I mean, I'm asking Bryson tough questions about a lot of things. He just answers them, which I like, of course, and that's neat. Does he have handers around when you do that? He does, but I just ignore them. I just walked right up to Bryce and we have you know, I've been covering him

a long time, and that's Bryson's cag. I mean, he knows I'm writing this book about about live golf in the PGA Tour, and I think he's obsessed with status and he wants to be a voice in the book. But that's fine as long as and he gives me like really good answers. There's I have a strong BS detector, and I feel like he's he's being really straight with me. So um, yeah, the handlers are always around, but I just don't even make eye contact with them. But um,

and he's playing terrible golf. I mean he's he's finishing like forty six, forty seven, but he's trying hard out there, man, I mean I I did. My least favorite part of this job is the driving range vigil. When you want to talk to somebody and they're there, you know it's after the round and you're like, oh, they're gonna have one bag of balls, and he keeps setting this guy back for more and more balls. I mean, um, you know, he was there till dark. And it's not like he's

not putting in the same amount of time. He's just not getting the results. But the thing about Bryson is he's just and you see this in all the things he does on social media. He's just not quite as funny as he thinks he is. And I mean the usg bit could have been good, but it wound up being a little cringe e And that that's kind of like a lot of the things he does. I guess it's it's cool that he puts himself out there and he's he's trying to engage his fans, and he's he's

trying to, you know, be a content creator. But it's just always like slightly off. But um, you know, I guess I guess you got to applaud the effort. I mean we want we want the fans too, I mean want the players to engage his fans, we want them to embrace social media. I mean, Bryson does all that, but it's just it's I don't know, it's just it's just like two degrees away from being like really good.

But um yeah, I mean, yeah, he's getting He's the loudest voice against against the rollback for sure, because you know, he feels personally oppressed and he's a guy who's who's devoted his entire professional career to finding new advantages and and exploiting um any little thing he can, and it just feels like they're stunting his progress. But he does look good. I mean, he's he's lost a lot of the weight. He looks strong. I mean, he looks thick but not bloated, and he looks a lot healthier than

when he first embraced. He went down that road of just trying to bulk up. So he just remains an enigma. But I do like watching him play the game, and I do appreciate that he's still obsessed with golf and he's still trying to get better at it, even though the evidence is to the contrary. He should be in his alan. He should be in his prime trying to get better at it. He should absolutely be in his prime. I know, yeah, it's true. Something really, really really weird

is going down that we don't know. But just so just to pop on something that you just said, you see to me Bryson mocking the USG as you say, you know he's off by two dukeree Is he thinks it's funny. It's not really funny. But to be sort of serious about it, his career is defined by two things. I mean, you know, the great muscle packing and weight gain. You know, aside the US Amateur win, the US Open win,

those are the great championships of the USGA. And to be so disrespectful to an organization that what they've gotten a lot wrong. And I'm not standing here as a usg committeement or anything remotely like that, but they do create the game by which he has been able to separate himself from the crowd as an amateur and as a professional. And I don't know. I know he's trying to be funny, but I don't think it's funny at all.

I think it's dumb, and I think it's disrespectful, and I think it and I think it's why a lot of people are just sort of annoyed at live golf, because I think the live people want to do what they want to do, they should do it, and it's great. I don't personally think it's great, but it's a free world, you know, is a free world. I think Bryce and d Shambo I don't even like to use the word should,

but I'm using it here. Uh, could be a little bit more respectful to the organization that created these championships that have really defined his golfing life. I find it offensive, really, It's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I always appreciate your traditionalist take. I mean, it would be very clever pr if if live off. All the players just said, we love the USGA. They're the stewards of the game.

We believe in them, and we're gonna follow their lead and whatever they want us to do, we're gonna do. Because it would be so counterintuitive, right, you know, they've they've they've got all these spiky personalities and these and these guys like to rage against the machine like that would that would be a way to get in the good graces of certain golf fans. But it's just not in their DNA. I mean, it's just not you know, it's funny ways you say that, Alan, because like you know,

I've talked to Norman a lot over the years. I know you have as well, and of course he's very critical to PJ Tour. I have never heard him say one critical thing about the RNA, Augusta National or the USGA. I never have. Yeah, and you know, for a guy who was pretty star crossing in the US Open, I mean he had a few chances too, it never did he could ever say this US of course joke is the set up here is a joke. Never I never

heard him say anything like that. Yeah, you've talked about this very eloquently another podcast that And you know, the USGA had this this elevated position in the sport. They were your term. They were like the stern father who ruled, who lorded over all of us. And I think Norman still has that that reflexive kind of reverence, even though he is a muckraker and and he does like to stir the pot I and of course he came up.

He was under the ages of the RNA coming up anyway, And I think the RNA, even more than the USGA, is held in the steam because it's these tweety old gents who invented the sport and um and so yeah, it's uh, that is interesting. But would this to be an appropriate venue for me and us to an extend and inventa to Norman Greg Norman, commissioner of the LIV Gulf League, to join us on NITA fourth and discuss his feelings about the us GA, the RNA, and gust

A National. It would be unt I bumped into Norman out on the course during the pro am in Tucson. He was just there and he's always on the move, like he's a really hard guy to pin down. They don't bring him into the press room anymore. Like they've really tried to keep him away from reporters, which is probably a smart move because he has he just always takes the bait and he loves to he loved to

pop off. But there he was, and so I walked up to him and I was like, Greg, you know, I've been trying to I've been trying to get ahold of you for a long time. And we had this moment last year in the parking lot at Portland where that was right after coming in hot after London. I got boot out of the press conference and he's looming over my shoulder like the grim Reaper, and we talked

in them. We talked to the park about for half an hour of Portland and had a meeting of the mines and he was apologetic and about that whole situation, and I told him that I was doing this book and I really wanted to sit down with him. He said, okay, mate, we'll do it. You know, come to my office and Florida and we shook hands on it. And he's been dodging me ever since. And you know, I've texted him and he keeps saying I'd like to but you know,

I can't not the right time. Everyone has a boss, Greg, no one has a boss, and so there they've pretty much muzzled him. But anyway, I don't I don't care. So I walked up to him. It's like, Greg, we got to talk. I got all these questions for you. He's like, I'd love to mate, but you know, and he had he had a cart. He's like, I gotta pick my son up, who was like fifty yards away. He's like, we gotta be over there. I said, okay, well, how about after the pro I'm like, I'll meet you

in the lobby at the Ritz. We can sit down and have a drink. He's like, ah nah this afternoon slam. I said, okay, dinner, I'll buy you dinner. You can order the wine. He's like, I got a dinner thing. I said, fine, I'll meet you after dinner and we can, like I'll sit in your hotel room. I don't care, just tell me where and went. He's like a it's a crazy night. He's like I gotta go and like zooms away. It's like, well, I can't try any harder

than I'm trying. But he just he doesn't want to talk I mean, no matter what Greg Norman says, people are going to pounce on it, and he has a tency to say the wrong thing anyway, So I it's there's no upside for him other than it would there's he could explain things in a detailed way. He could he could offer some depth and context. I mean, of course that it would be it would be helpful for my purposes. But I think he just the cost of benefit analysis. But if he slips up and says one

wrong thing, I'm not in the gotcha business. But he's just done it to himself where you know when I mean, one of the top the live executives quit last year after Norman's quote about you know, the Jamaal Kashagi murder, Like, oh, we all make mistakes, like this guy like resigned in protests, you know, like there's there's actual raifications to his words, and so if he says the wrong thing, the stakes are just too high. So the chances been coming on

need a fourth or slim. But I that you're putting it out into the universe, Michael, who knows it's worth a shot. But uh, anyway, So one of the pleasures of my trip to Tucson was that I've been reading your book, The Ball in the Air. I'm like eighty percent and done, and uh, what we're gonna do. That comes out next a week from today, and we're gonna

do a special pod to talk about the book. But it's such a joy because it's such it's a very intimate, charming story and you're so immersed in the life of these these these golf lifers, and um, I'm trying to find some I gotta finish it today because it's I just like finishing books, and I want to see how it ends. I mean, I kind of I have some I have some insight on the life and times of your protagonist. But anyway that I thank Yeah, you can find time to read all you got going on, four kids,

book job and the rest. But you are in plane, so that helps. Yeah. And actually on Frida Day night in Tucson, there were really long days and I came in a little rundown anyway, so I was like kind of doing room service and just not really venturing out. But I went out Friday night to this cool part of town. I think it's called the Warehouse District. It's

near the University of Arizona. I didn't realize with Saint Patrick's Day until there was all these all these like people dressed in green and having a lot of fun, and I was like, oh, that's kind of fun energy. But I long ago stopped caring about like eating in restaurants by myself. I know some people are self conscious, you know, when you travel for a living, that's just

what you got to do. So I wound up in this very bustling pizza place and I was reading your book and I've got like the greasy smudges on some of the pages to prove it and like, and I didn't realize it, but I was kind of on the way to the bathroom, so there's like a lot of foot traffic where my table was. And seven or eight people were like commented, I guess this is weird. She's

someone reading a book. The days like if you're by yourself, folks are on their phone, right, Like that's how people pass the time, if you have to eat a mule alone. But to have a hardback book with kind of an elegant cover, he created a lot of conversations. I think I sold some books for you in Tucson. I'm gonna leave you this one thing out. And so the Farrelly brothers, great guys, great golfers. I don't know if they're great golfers. They're trying to pitch Bill Murray on a script. I

think the movie was called Hall Pass. And they sent him and he has no Asian and he's got no anything. And they, you know, they got an address room on some island of South Carolina, probably just Kio or something up that way, Sullivan's Island. But anyway, they got the address, they sent Murray the script that they wanted him to read, consider the role to your point about piece of some mudge stains on the pages. The script came back about

nine months to a year later. Every single page had a coffee staying on it or some kind of staying on it, a dog geared. He obviously read the whole thing. No, no, no anything. And I think it was Peter Farreley. I told me that was Bill Murray's way of passing. You know that he was going to do just sent it bad. But to me, you know, at least he took it seriously. And you know, I'm looking at a Philip brothbook I'm reading right now, you know, it's a good feeling to

look at something. It's actually it's got a little bit of you. Not to get too graphic here, but once you've read something physically. But now our son Ian barnburgers in a very avid reader. He reads. He does all his reading on not all all, but most of his reading on kindles. So anyway, it's a generational thing, is we're finding out anythings in life. Alan, thank you for for for representing the fire pit so well in the

Uncharted Orders of Live Golf. It's an excellent report, and I know there's going to be a lot more where that came from, and nobody else is doing it. I had a period of my life. Uh, I've had I've had period some pere I followed golf excuse me, where I followed baseball obsessively, and within that I've had two periods where one the labor strife. This probably goes back to the early mid eighties. The labor strife was as interesting to me as what was happening on the field.

I don't know why. It just really interested me. I'm not knowledgeable about it. About There was a guy, Murray Chats, who wrote it up for the New York times. And then much later in the Social McGuire period. Of course, there was the home run thing that was fascinating and I was way into that, but really the question of drugs in baseball, it was like a sideshow. Was unfortunate,

but it was weirdly, weirdly fascinating. And I know that a lot of people have that for Live golf and what's happening right, They're really interested in what it says about the person who's either rooting or not rooting for Live to succeed. And I don't know, so I get it that people really can't get enough. Yeah, I mean this story that posted on our website, I mean the amount of engagement in the comments, it's twenty times when I could have gotten from you know, a Jordan's speed

story at at the valvespart. And yet everyone says, I don't care about live golf, you know, I don't follow it, but they read the stories and they react to them, and so I think I think you're right. I mean, it is a it is a window into so many different things, and it is it's quite a big story in our game, and it's we're going to keep feeling it for years to come. So it's hard. That's my thesis. It's just hard to ignore. Whether I love it or hate it, it's hard to ignore. And yeah, it's going

to reveal character. How you feel about it will reveal character, just like Bryson's, you know, dissing the USGA because they think the ball goes too far. I mean, it's a legitimate position to have, whether you agree with it or not. I know he's trying to be funny, but it just reveals something about Bryson. So this is a great you know,

you know the Scott's except for a billion years. Golf addresses a person, they would say today, but golf addresses a man, and one's attitude about live undresses the person as well. All right, this was This is another fire drill. Thanks to the listeners. We appreciate your fidelity and we will be back in your ear soon. M for Michael Bamberger. This Allen ship next, that's the end. I'm that big and I played the win, made a fortune. When my ship game in, I ran the table, never thought I

could fall. Then the winter time hit me like a cannon, the ball and now I can't shake this losing the stream. Every road I take is a dead end stream. I got thoughts in my head, can't get them out, Trying not to think what I'm thinking about. I got thoughts in my head, can't get them out. Trying not to think what I'm thinking about.