Fire Drill 070 - The Great Ball Debate

get them out. Not think what I'm thinking about. Hello, this is Alan Ship knocking back for another Fire Drill podcast, joined by a heavy hitting trio Michael Bamberger, Matt Ginella and US Open Champion Jeff Ogilvie. The big story in golf at this moment is the USGA's move to throttle back the golf ball through this local rule. We want to convene this panel to kick it all around. Um, Jeff, We're gonna start with you. Not only are you a player, but you're an architect. You have to you have to

account for the distance the ball flies. Um, you're also a traditionalist. What is your take on this decision and how is it going to impact the game at every level in your mind. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm just getting my head around it a little bit. Um they've been threatening this for a while. It seems like, I mean, they've been getting a bit more diligent on there. What do they call that report, the Distance Insights Report or whatever it is. Yeah, Yeah, I don't know. I

think it's more complicated than people think. I mean, you say, I'm a purist, and I guess my favorite version of golf would be persimonon bladders around the old course or something, you know what. I mean, that's my fat But that doesn't mean that's everybody's favorite version. Um, So I kind of have empathy for. I mean, I guess the real

driving factor is the golf courses. I mean, when you start seeing Augusta spanning millions and millions of millions buying neighboring real estate and moving their teas out of bounds and or what used to be out of bounds and the old course sort of moving their teas to other golf courses and having to sort of manipulate what they've got to challenge the best players in the world. I think that's sort of disappointing, so I can sort of

see the motivation behind it. I don't think it's quite as simple as just making the best players hit it a little bit shorter and like that fixes all those sort of problems. I think it's way more complicated than that, So I'm not like a massive fan of splitting up the rules. I think business and technology and like the manufacturers are such an integrated part of the game game, and they have been for so long that I think,

I don't know, I'm on the fence. I mean, I love the philosophy, you know, I think of preserving the third eighth at the Masters and had playing team the roadhole, like off the correct tea and or the original tea, and I love all that, But golf's never Golf's never really been stronger, at least in my lifetime. I mean, you can't get a tea time anywhere, at least in Arizona and in Australia, you can't get tea times. Golf

shops seem to be selling a lot of stuff. I mean, we've got billions of dollars getting put into the programe. I mean, it's it's in a good spot. So I stepped forward slowly. I guess, you know, I don't know. No one really knows what's going to happen. I mean, they've done this sort of three times in my career. And if we kind of discount the driver length thing that they did, because they don't think that really affected very many people. The grooves thing, everyone was jumping up

and down and going crazy. We're not going to get flyers from every time. We didn't the raff and the whole game's going to change it. I mean, it didn't change anything like it literally changed. Maybe for six months we sort of scrambled around and mess around with bounces and lofts and different stuff, but they worked out how to get us to spin the ball like it used to and off to the races. And same with the

long putter thing. The intent was to get people to not use long putters, and just as many people use long putters as now as before, maybe even more so. This my skepticism about whether it'll actually make any realistic difference. Is there a little bit, and it's kind of rescue I think, to sort of split up the rules. I don't know. Maybe I'm saying that because I've been a paid athlete from governmentufacturers my whole life. I'm not sure, but the general public and everybody benefits from all the

r and D that they do on our stuff. You know, they research and development for what we want, and that it's a bit like Formula one in the cars. Is that that sort of filters down and ten years later that comes into the end users product. I think if you sort of mess that process up, I mean, maybe do all them or does all the money go into our ball or does all the money go into the

average players ball? And what's the motivation for titlists or tailor made or anybody who makes a ball to sponsor athletes? Then if people if they're going to be so different, you know, and that would completely change the fabric and the macap of the whole sport, at least on a professional level. So I don't know. I think it's I love the philosophy of not having us hit it so far, but I think it needs to be well thought out. And these things usually work best when they evolve as

opposed to get forced. That's my feeling. Michael, you didn't have any qualms. You wrote a pretty strong piece for firepay Collective dot Com laying out your thesis that this was an important moment for the USGA to show some leadership and as stewards of the game, and explain your the emotion behind that that story. Why do you believe this is this is the right move? Yet just a quick nod to Jeff, because then we've had this experience before. You could just take what Je' said, print it up

and put it in a magazine. It was such a well reasoned essay almost about why he feels the way he does. But I think it's but I say that in part because I think it's very significant to realize where we all come into the game in different places, including the four of us, including the millions of people who are so passionate about the game. I think the interest here on the USJ and the RNA part is

very narrow. And let's just think about three courses that we all know, Pebble Beach, the Old Course in Gusta National you know, occasionally in every year in Gust's case, those tournaments are played on those courses and millions of people around the world watch them, and that's an invitation to play the game. When those courses become pitch and put courses like Camp Smith's thirty on the back nine

and the Old Course last year. It actually creates more of a chasm between us and them and actually makes the game just kind of less appealing. And if we lose those showpieces of golf because they turned into pitch

and put courses, it doesn't serve the game. Well. I think there's a very narrow goal here of preserving the best, most traditional courses in the world, including Madonna where Jeff's doing work now, and really not that many where golf is played on TV, and continue to make them meaningful for the pro and continue to make it aspirational for us. And I think the USGA in the RNA might go down the following path the next couple of years, much like a kid going from a metal bat to a

wooden bat. It would be aspirational for a golfer to someday be at the level where you use the tournament ball. But it could be very narrow and focus and achieve the goal of preserving the three shot Part five. You know, when I was coming up in the game, you had Part seventy two US Open courses knocked down to Part seventy and one of those Part fives will be unreachable in the other wood. That was sort of the traditional

definition of a part seventy. Of course that's gone. So to bring that back, to make it, to make us recognize the value of the game of eighteen holes comprising of Part five's, part fours and Part three's where you test every club in the bag, I think is it would be very useful to the game. But I would be much more narrow in what do they say rolling out this new rollback? I would start with the four majors. So, matt um did it? Did the USGA go far enough?

I mean, should they have? Should they have taken a more holistic approach to this where it's not just about the ball, it's about the size of the driver, It's about you know, there's a lot of other factors besides the ball, like um, you know, I remember when I when I was learning to play the game, it was scared to hit a driver because the head was so small and if you if you didn't, if you caught it on the toe or the heel, it was going to go a million miles offline. Like there was there

was risk to swing in a driver. And now the club faces are so big and forgiving that you can swing harder and you may not cast it in the sweet spot, which you know oftentimes I don't, but you're still gonna get it on the face and it's still gonna fly pretty well and usually in play. Like they could have taken more dramatic action than just just a golf ball, Like, what do you think of where they landed on this issue. I'm like, and like probably a lot of people, I did take a couple of days.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around. I've read several articles, I've listened to several podcasts because because I'm trying not to be, you know, quick to overreact or to take some sort of dramatic stand, you know, for the spirit of taking a dramatic stand. And again I'm

a I'm a I'm an amateur golfer. We are talking about something that's going to affect one percent of the one percent of the people that swing that hard, that fast, that create that kind of energy with that size of a club, you know, with the current ball on courses that we see on TV. Because let's be honest, this is about golf on TV. And that was my point there. You know, at Augusta National the membership who plays there

day in and day out. The members tease is plenty long enough for all members, and members don't go back and play the crazy teas we're talking about, you know, at Riviera. The membership at Riviera, that golf course is plenty long and challenging for them. And at Cypress Point

and all the differences. Cypress isn't it on TV? And Riviera and Pebble and Old Course are at Old Course last year the most benign conditions absolutely no, no, no traditional Scottish weather, which in large part is a factor generally at in competing at that place over four days.

This was an outlier of a situation and camp Smith won at twenty under and he won it by you know, with his short game, with his chipping and putting, and we marveled at at at his ability, and I think we will in April marvel at people's ability to get up and down around the green and hit the Scottie Scheffler. The chips that are talked about are in those first free few holes of the last round. It's not about

what he was hitting into thirteen or fifteen. It was about his short game that that converted what should have been two or three over to two or three under. That was his short game. So one percent of one percent for fifteen yards, okay, for you know, why is it just the ball? Why why now, in the middle of the ship storm that's happening in the world of professional golf? Why why why now for something that we will contemplate into August and then wouldn't go into effect

until twenty six. Can we just let this other stuff kind of play out a little bit for a little while longer. If you look at stats and facts that since two thousand and four they're hit, there has been pretty much a a moderation to what the advancements are happening as it relates to the ball. Courses have made the changers. Augusta bought the land that it needed to make the changes to keep the thirteenth hole relevant. So there's a couple holes, a couple venues, a couple people.

This involves, and we're talking about the tour, the elite level player. Why not just involve the governing bodies and these players. Why put all of us through all of us, Why not go behind closed doors and at least everybody get on the same page that there is some sort of issue that needs to be dressed and then decide how they're going to address it, in which they already know that the tour is going to adopt it. Because if they do this and the tour doesn't adopt it,

now we have more of a shit show. Now, it's like, now, what does that mean to the USGA and the RNA, the you Why not just raise the mowing levels of fay. We see thirty to forty to fifty yards of roll out right now on these modern mode fairways at these classic venues. That to me is just as much of an issue as swing speed and ball distance, because that ball goes and then it just keeps going. So why don't we talk about mower length? Why don't we talk about loft of a driver? Why don't we just why

isn't it a combination of a few things? Why is it just the ball? To try to simplify such a layered decision and focus on one thing, one factor in this spirit of this idea that it needs to go back like freeze it now, keep it now, marvel at cam Smith's thirty. Instead of saying this is a problem, marvel at the guy achieved something that should be celebrated forever instead of being the catalyst to some sort of rollback. It just doesn't. I just think all of it just doesn't.

It doesn't make sense to me. Let me read butt a few of those things for the spirit of conversation. I mean, why now, it's because Mike Juan took over the USGA. I mean they have they have a new leadership, they have a new energy, and you know they've they've been They've been talking about this for twenty years and the game has changed in since they started studying this issue. I don't think there's any doubt to Jeff's point. Even though this rule is only going to affect the pros,

there is a trickle down. It will affect the average consumer based on how much these manufacturers UH put into R and D and what that means to our to our game as well. So that's not a huge factor, but it is a factor. So everyone everyone in golf is touched in some way. But as golf consumers, I would say, I don't think this is about camp Smith or even Scottie Seffler. They're not the guys who are

pushing the envelope of driving distance. But um, when you see like you know Bryson did to wing foot, which is of course that Jeff holds deer, like the pro game has evolved to drive or wedge on so many holes. But putting some credit there too, Like everyone thinks he just powered wing foot. He didn't. It was about his short game and his putting that won him the tournament. Yeah,

that was a factor too. But I will say that when when you watch when the tour goes to like in an old course, like I think about the rocket mortgage for instance, like every part four guys are hidding wedges into and it gets it gets repetitive. It's like just there's no danger. When when I when a tour player has a wedge, a bad shot going to be thirty feet like there, it just takes all the dispersion out of it. The water's not in play, that the

trees and the bunkers aren't in play. And I do notice as a golf viewer that there's a sameness to the way the holes get played and and there's there's just not that sense of they're not walking a tight rope like they used to because the clubs are. It's not just everyone likes to watch them hit it a long way off the tea, but it's what happens after that. I mean, I just think it's a less compelling product.

And as you said, it's a TV show, And as as a viewer watching golf for a long time, I think it's a lot more boring now because the way they play the game. That's that's my personal feeling. No, I'm totally with you, Alan. I think you said that I would say the same way the only and I would add to that, I would add I agree with what Matt saying. It's not just one factor, an Alan, to yours point is it used to be a little

scared to hit a driver. I mean even just in the thirty years and we've been putting together at I've gone from scared of the driver to love the driver, in part because that bald doesn't curve as much as it used to and part way a pipe put it forward and launch it. In part because of the way people design golf course to say, with no rough in sixty yard fairways, there's no scare factor. So to Matt's point, and I'm sure we would all agree with this, it

isn't just one factor. But the golf ball is a place to start, as Nicholas has been saying, literally for for for thirty or forty years, Jeff, how long will it take for the pros to get their fifteen or seventeen or eighteen yards back? I mean you mentioned the grooves. Um, there's there's always there's always a workaround, like, um, there's there's going to be a way to to they roll

the ball back. But it seems like people are clever enough that they can they can they can squeeze out more yardage whatever they're given, Like this is this only going to be an issue for a few years and back to where they were right now? I imagine it's probably gonna go that. I mean, I don't know how that would do that, but and look, I don't know enough about the signs that I'd be pretending like I'll

just be regurgitating what other people say it. But I feel like one of the knocks on the way they measure is they've always just measured off that one clubs that one certain condition, and they measure how father ball goes. And that's sort of the line. But there's there's stuff in the equipment that we have now that triggers at

certain speeds and it can change at certain conditions. I mean, they could conceivably design a ball the past the test that you just swing it a little bit slower and put a little bit more spin on it where there's a different amount of loft on your driver or something, and they will work out how to get it going far again. And I mean they're going to do it, which is why I think this is it just needs to be well thought out if everyone thinks it's the

way it should go. And I mean just one little point that Michael made about six yard fairways and no rough. I mean Augustus got plenty of scary shots for sixty yard wide fairways, and I don't think I mean, look, there was a great someone wrote it about Hogan, or it was a quote of Hogan's or someone said that this was how he viewed his golf. I mean, he measured his drives. He analyzed his drives in terms of position,

and he didn't measure him in terms of distance. So position to him was more important than out and out distant. I mean, distance is a part of position. But we've ever since the last twenty as this was happening with the equipment, the golf courses just played into the manufacturer's hands and just rewarded exponentially rewarded distance so disproportionately from

everything else. The reason you see what you see on tour is the golf courses are set up to challenge you to hit it as far as you can, and if you do, you can succeed. If you don't, you can't. So twenty thirty years ago, pros weren't going home with launch monitors and working on swinging with heavy and lightweight clubs and trying to max out their speed and watching long drivers swing it on Instagram. That's just wasn't a thing.

We were going home and trying to work on our soft little fade with a sixth time because that was what was rewarded. And so the golf courses and the way they've set up and the reactiveness, I mean, this is a bit of a reaction to a slow one, but a reaction the reactiveness sort of the last evolution of the reaction was to make golf courses longer and to challenge long hitters more. Well, that just makes us want to hit it further. And if you take a ball and make it go shorter, we're just going to

work out how to make it go further. How we're going to work out how to have the lower score we can on the courses we get presented. And I think it's very realistic to present courses that proportionately reward distance,

not disproportionately. I mean, I know that's kind of what the USJA we're trying to do at wing foot and all that, and I guess it's not an exact science and you can't do it always, but we're just going to try to do I say we as as a professional golfer, we're just going to try to get our games to the point that get rewarded the most on the challenges we get put And if you just keep putting longer and longer courses that reward distance, that's all

we're going to focus on. I think it's just more complicated than just changing away you measure the ball and making certain conditions to go a bit shorter off the driver. I think it's a holistic if you genuinely want golf to have a smaller fought print and use less water and not have to buy land next door and all these things that I think should be Really the only reason we do this is to preserve golf courses, because whether someone hits at three thirty on TV or three

fifteen on TV, you can't. That doesn't translate like any average golfer goes down and watches PGA two players hit any shots, really, they're blown away. It wouldn't even matter if the ball went thirty yards shutter. They'd watch that and go, wow, how good is that? Like that, the entertainment product is great regardless of whether it goes three thirty or three fifteen. I think it's got to be a holistic approach to bring distance back into a sensible

level of reward as opposed to disproportionately. And I think the general reaction with all golf courses is just like how long can we make this? We've got to make these long. Guys have to hit it even longer. And that's just encourages the issue from my perspective anyway, and add point to those that perspective there Aaron Hills versus Harbortown Aaron Hills, big long essentially built for the modern

game played by modern players. Brooks Kepta wins because he was like the best driver of the week Versus Harbortown. You have to hit, you can't drive it through the fairway. You have to shape it right and left. You have to hit your spots, you have to hit those small greens Harbortown like I think the answer is more towards Harbortown and less Aaron Hills, which is exactly what you know, built in the you know sixties, verse built you know,

built in the two thousands. I mean, that's a big fundamental difference that played right into a long driver's long driver's hands. I mean, Augusta is still one. Zack Johnson and Danny Willet and Trevor Immelman and some of these, you know, some of these guys who win the Masters, you know brooks kept and Dustin Johnson and or Adam Scott or you know, it's not the longest hitter that's not dominating the tours. Brandon Matthews is not dominating anything.

The Where is the last time the longest hitter wins the tournament? It's just it's still so much more nuanced than just going out and ripping a three forty. I don't care what you have into the green. You still have to chip and put where the pin placements are, what the green complex look like, how the green speeds are running the bunker positions. It's so you know, it's so much more complex than just like we need to

roll the ball back fifteen yards. Bryson pitched, chipped and put of the ball like a madman winning what a wing foot. So I'm not taking anything away from that, but basically, hole after hole hole, he ad driver as far as he possibly could to rough that he could play out of. It was it was almost meaningless, meaningless

to him. And I think when you know, when we talk about length and it always goes to driver, But like the hooded five iron on a hot fairway that goes to fifty, Hogan hit drivers two fifty to the position and wanted to hit it and was happy to do it. So the hooded five iron as a tea shot, it doesn't challenge Jeff Ogilvie and the two hundred other best players in the world. But if I could just post one question, because Jeff is the only architect in

this conversation. We're all architects in our minds, but Jeff actually is an architect. Jeff, do you see in your playing life and as you're thinking about Medon and some of the other courses we work on that The notion of the traditional golf course comprising part fives, part fours and part threes is being challenged by the two hundred and fifty yards five iron off the tea and the

three hundred and thirty yard drive. I don't know, we don't really build stuff to apply, as Madonna is an exception, and we obviously like having to think about that. I don't think so. I mean, look, it's just a bigger footprint than it was before. Really, I mean, I mean we're all like, we all sort of fall in love with the game, and we think of the game as it's best when we were like the most in love with the right usually, Like, I mean, it's just the

way it is. I mean, some people still get around saying Vinyl records are better than Spotify, better than maybe but Spotify. I've got every song in the world on my phone, you know. I mean, there's that's pretty good, you know. Um. And it's like Simon blades and balladas at the old course in wearing like twee jackets and stuff. I mean, that's really cool and nostalgia and stuff. But the game has always evolved and it's always been moving forward.

It definitely accelerated twenty years ago. I think Carston Solheim's got a big part of this with that pig lawsuit, I think sort of triggered a couple of things. One that Wow, there's crazy amounts of improvement and equipment. Guys, Look, if you just put a bit of science into this, you can make people better. And he sort of showed people that for real, and that the manufacturers could push the envelope a little bit and the man and the rules bodies would be scared to keep up a little bit.

That that that was a pretty important situation. I think that that whole pin groove issue and ever since them, I mean, it's just got faster, but everything has two. I mean you can't stop time, you know, like you just can't. I think golf is an incredible game now do I think it's probably a bit more depth than nuance. Back with the old stuff, probably it was more about you and less about the equipment you were using before. Now it's the equipment. It's a bigger part of golf.

But that's just part of what it is. And I mean speaking from a from the player's side of things, I mean, these manufacturers, they've put us on TV they've advertised us, We're in magazines, We've got big billboard golf bags and hats. They're part of the celebrity of the whole thing, like they're they're they're part. There's such an integral part of the thing. If we'd all just used no name equipment forever to a players wouldn't be as celebrity, it wouldn't be as big a deal. It just wouldn't be.

It's just a big part of the enthusiasm and money and everything that came into the sports. So it's so intertwined to just change one tiny little thing and expect the whole thing to come back to where everybody wants it. I just don't think that's going to happen, and I think there's risk involved, which I think at a time when the spirit of this change or this suggestion is that golf is in a bad place, I think is awful,

because I think golf is in an amazing place. You can choose to go out and play Godhill with a persimon What if you want you know the game that whatever game that you want, you can go find. You know, you can get on an eBay, you can buy whatever equipment you want. You can go play the game that you want to play. Professional golf has never been more appealing.

It doesn't seem like to the money people in the world, corporate, the corporate world, Saudi Arabia, everybody is obsessed with professional golf at the moment. And I think it's it's so complicated that one little rule I don't I think is risky, and I think it needs to be well thought out.

And someone mentioned that I can't remember that everyone needs to get on the same everyone needs to get in the same room to get tight, the manufacturers and the rules bodies and the golfers and a cross section of everybody from every level of golf, And like, really think this out, because I think, as I said at the start, I mean, my favorite version of the game is probably a little smaller version than that we play right now, but that doesn't mean that's the best version for everybody.

And I think it needs to be just thought out and philosophically. Where do we think that we can sort of put the guardrails or the regulations on this sport to sort of keep it in the keep it in the sort of wavelength we want to keep it in, and just keep it inside there and off you go. You can't stop evolution of equipment. You can't stop the evolution of like working on our bodies and working on our techniques, and you just you can't. You just can't stop that stuff. It's just and it's part of why

people play. I mean, if you go to St. Andrews and you go through I mean it's the original of the original, and go through all those old golf shops. I mean they were coming up with clubs to play out of water that were like that had holes in them and like scoopy looking faces, and they had things that looked like hybrids one hundred years ago. I mean they this has been part of the game forever. And

you definitely have to put regulations. You have to put sort of a line in the sand somewhere, I guess. But just doing this isn't going to stop that move forward of this sport. It's always just going to keep doing it because, to be honest, that's part of why people play it. I Mean, my dad loved golf, but I think he loved walking around a golf shop and

buying new golf clubs more. You know that for him, golf was the promise of distance and the new clubs are this part is going to make more parts, or this drive is going to go further on finally able to draw the ball or whatever it is. That to him and a lot of people, that's golf. That's their

favorite part of it. And I think when you start messing around with stuff like that, I don't know, it's it's a little bit woke in that it's just this sort of this narrow loud band of rollback headspace that makes the most noise, you know, and look and as I said, I'm I'd be in that crowd quietly, you know what I mean. But I think when you make so much noise over there, you forget about all the

other great things in the sport. And I just think probably some lines have to be drawn in the sand at some point, because he bawls that go for one hundred and fifty yards. That's silly, And at some point, if it was unregulated, that would happen. Um. But I think it just has to be done cleverly and wealth

thought out and not rushed into Well. It's important to note that this these are not this is not a rule yet, This is a this is a proposal and a suggestion and this is the beginning of the comment period where the USG is listening feedback from the manufacturers, from from players, from everyone in the game. So we'll see how how this evolves based on the feedback in your age. If there are there are different constituents that are that are noisy, and whether that have an effect

on what they do or not, we'll see. But I'm not sure if the spear behind this is that the golf is in a bad place or more maybe it's golf is in a great place and we want to keep it here. Because if if you get I think in twenty twenty two, driving distance among like the elite pros went up four percent, which is not nothing. And if it goes up four percent and then four percent and four percent, then all of a sudden you're driving

a twenty five yards further than right now. That could that becomes problematic on some golf courses, in some championships. So ever, would say, well, they're trying to take us back in time. Maybe it's just they're trying to slow down the progress a little bit because whatever they cook up, as you know, there's going to the players will find a way. They always do it. I don't think this ends progress. I think this just slows it in. You know, I think that it's okay to have those guardrails, but

people may disagree with that. You know why, Zach Johnson's a Hall of Famer in my mind because he's won at Augusta and the old course. Like Zach Johnson in the middle of all this, the guy, you know, it just that that that that's that one percent, that group of people, that that's that is going it's going to be impact impacted here And again, why would this all

play out in the in this public forum. Why wouldn't they have already gotten in the rooms with all the people that it's going to impact and have everybody on the same page and make it seem like there is actual thought and leadership and you know, and some sort of efficient execution to say this doesn't impact anybody. This is all it impacted. We met with them, they are on board, they're going to implement it. This is how

that's going to be used. Like this sort of crazy discourse of reaction and overreaction and misinformation and and ill informed. Just it's just not I don't think this is good for the game right now. And I think this is another opportunity for the for the people to say, what, you know, golf is such a good play, like just you know, the t sheheets are packed, just let it go,

let it, let it happen behind closed doors. I mean, if they'd done that, I think there would have been a bigger reaction like this is this is the fixes in and you didn't listen to the stakeholders. But it's only impacting those tour players at those events, at those venues. Yeah, but as Jeff notes, I mean, the tour players have a very specific agenda. They're paid by the manufacturers. They're predisposed to taking that side of things and get them,

get them all in a room. Don't let people get in press conferences and start, you know, just just it's another layer of mess. You know, we got tour Verse live, and now we got tour players versus a rollback, versus the governing bodies with representing manufacturers. Oh my god, great, great news. I think the tour players have their way that nothing would ever change. It would just be like let us just get let us just keep going and going and going, and and it might be that way.

They might not implement this, They might not the tour. Why would the tour do this? And who's going to make a ball for that small of a marketplace. Who's going to make a ball that they sell only to a people group of people who don't actually buy balls. Well there those people on TV, though, I mean, you still you still want if your titleists, you still want your ball to win the Masters and the US Open,

like they will make the ball. But well, I guarantee you if you've been to R and D play, titleist is still going to be the number one ball. No one does golf balls better than the time if you've been to their their fact I'm not paid by titleists, but I've been around to different different factories, and titles is always going to make the best ball. They just that's what they're very good at. They're just incredible at it.

And they have got decades and decades and millions and jillions of dollars into R and D. They're gonna it. Just I don't know, this is so weird to me. I think to your point, you know, when you say another four percent year after year, we've had that four percent for a long long time now and now we're you know, now we're talking about three fifty where they used to talk about two seventy five. When when Jeff talks about a line in the sand, the time for

a line in the sand came out a long time ago. Uh, and they and the USJ and the RNA missed its chance to draw the line in the sand, So at some point it has to be the time to do it. When Jeff's sisters always going to be advances, yeah, they're always going to be advances, but at the same At the same time, he says, but there's always going to have to be requirements for rules. Yeah, they're going to be requirements for the rules. So why not now because

now it's already too late. Well, it's a fascinating topic. I don't think this is gonna be our last conversation about this, and we'll see how how it all plays out. But um, it's good to get some different thoughts. I think we're all coming out it from there's a continuum, and Michael's on one end, Matt's on the other. I think Jeff and I are in the middle, and that

that's why it's kind of interesting. There's there's not a right I watched Jeff play goad Hill Park at the Wishbone Brawl with uh, you know, persimmon woods and on a forty five hundred yard golf course. You know, Jeff practiced round the day before the Wishbone Brawl. You know, I think you were like even par or something, you know, through twelve holes or maybe one. On the next day, you sharpened up, you made a bunch of putts, you

made seven birdies, You worked the ball like. It was an incredible display of artistry that you know, not any of us are ever going to be able to execute. And it was fun. Forty five hundred yards. Again, have a tournament at a forty five hundred yard golf course where everyone plays persimmons and a lot of balls. Oh my god, that could be something that would be that would be an implication of like a little modern set

of rules at a different venue. Well, you know, why isn't that Why you know, that's a rollback of club, you know, not a ball, but of distance of the golf course, not of how far the ball goes. It's a combination of a lot of things. And that in itself was intriguing and it you know, I don't but but there's kids now that have never played a per semon would so why would it like that's not even they don't even know what that even means. They've never

held one in their hands. It's so layered and complex. Well hopefully for the listeners, we've cut through some of those layers and it's brought a little insight, um as a confusion. Yeah yeah, maybe maybe maybe we'll let let this Marina will come back again in a week and uh not for Matt Matt stuff. Um, but all right, well let's um, let's let's call this uh act one in in a multi act play, and we'll keep your visiting as as as this the twisted turns of this

plot continue. But I think I think it's a good start and I appreciate all the different perspectives here. So um, we're gonna wrap up this Fire Drill podcast. Uh for Michael Bamberger, Machinella, and most apecially Jeff Ogilvie out the stoundship, thanks for listening, and be back out of soon. I be big and I played the win, made a fortune with my shot game. Man. I ran the table, never thought I could fall down. The winter time hit me like a cannon. The ball and now I can't shake

this losing the street. Every road I take is a dead end street. I got thoughts in my head, can't get them out, Trying not to think what I'm thinking about. I got thoughts in my head. I can't get them out, Trying not to think what I'm thinking about.