Fire Drill 068: ELEVATED

Michael Bamberger. This is a throwback to about two thousand and fifteen when Michael and I first started podcasting together. We were not quite early adapters, but there weren't a lot of folks doing podcasts back then. It's not that the crowded landscape it has become in the golf space. So this is fun. We should We should tip our cap to our departed colleague Ryan French, who is part of these the Sunday night fire drills for a long time.

Ryan's left the collective to pursue some other opportunities, which we're all rooting for him. We all love Ryan, a great human being, fun colleague. We'll miss his random digressions about players none of us have ever heard of. He definitely added an institutional knowledge to these conversations that is hard to replicate. Michael, you want you wanna send a oral bouquet of flowers to Ryan? Yes, very very much. So. Ryan's become a good friend in in a short amount

of time. He absolutely has a heart of gold. Uh. He absolutely roots for the underclass. The people that he covers is Monday que Info, twitter Feed, like my friend Mike Donald, the former PHA tour player. He has a natural reporting ability. He has an immense curiosity, He wants what's going on. He reduces things to a very basic level. And uh, and he's a great friend and a great colleague.

And and maybe we'll still have him back from on this podcast from time to time because I know how much he enjoyed it, and we both know alan how much he added to it. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, as I told Ryan a bunch of times that the doors always open, you know, there's always a microphone available if he wants to jump back on this pod. We'll see how it all shakes out. It's definitely a transitional time for all of us. But anyway, just just a typic cap to the Ryan and to Ryan because we missed

that guy so well. Speak of other colleagues, our colleague Jeff Ogilvy, with whom Allan and I've done a long series of Need a Fourth podcasts played in the Puerto Rico tournament this week and I think et eleven, I know he played very well. Yeah, it's so nice to see Jeff back between the ropes and I can sense, just for in our conversation he's got he's getting some

of that competitive fireback. And you know, he kind of took a couple of years of where he didn't play much competitive golf and he moved his family to Australia and they went through their own big transition and golf was became kind of secondary. But that kind of talent, that kind of imagination, that love for the game that never goes away. So if you can just get tournament sharp, it'll be really fun to see if if Jeff can get on a little run here and now you are.

People may be wondering, are you in a NASA, you know, headquarters, what's going on back there? You're actually in the press room at Bay Hill. Tell us about the scene there, Michael, I'm only ninety miles from Cape Kernaville, So you're not too far off. I have a neat memento from today's tournament. This, Hey Luise, how are you? This is a you know, I've been amazed over the years to watch like Phil. Phil will take the cruttiest little nib of a t

and use it on a part three. This is the tea that Maxifoma used and just guarded after one time use on a part of three year in the bay Hill course. It is one of the most elegant twos I've ever seen. It's got a it's got a sturdy stem, good point, very cuppy and so anyway, yes, so I'm here at the bay Hill Tournament. I'm here in the president the winners being interviewed. He's wearing his red sweater.

And it was a wild tournament here and kind of a great reminder really of what just a I won't call it an ordinary PGA Tour event, but Arnold Palmer Invitational. The Arnold Palmer was never like an elite event. It was just Arnie's event. Now of course that I'll have a quote elevated status. But I was only here a couple of days. But from from what I was here it was just like a lot of people having a good time. Great weather, great field, flat, easy walking golf

course and an exciting tournament. You know, kind of just what the BJA Tour is all about. Yeah, I mean, Tigers knack for winning that tournament and the rapport he always had with Arnie certainly elevated it. I would say, pre and post Tiger, it lost some luster and clearly with mister Palmer no longer there to serve as a master of ceremonies, it's it's it's been lacking. But the field this year was immense because of the elevated slash designated status, and it was fun. I mean a lot

of a lot of star power on the leaderboard. You know, John rom they were going to just give him the trophy on Thursday after he shot an incredible first round, but he kind of lost his mind out there. I mean, I've come to like bay Hill. The course itself doesn't do much for me, but it's basically like the second US Open of the year, or it's the first one. It's like it's like a precursor because they set it up so challenging with brick hard greens and long, rough

and skinny fairways. It seems like they always have a lot of front flags. On Sunday, you got hit over the water, but the green is as hard as a rock, and the ball just skips to the back bunker or into the roff and then you've got these crazy up and downs or two puts, and it's really a war of attrition. And you know Maxima, who's been one of the two or three hottest players in the world, he went backwards today in a big way. Rom was never seen again after Thursday. Like this course gets in the

head of some really great players. And uh and you know, obviously you were out there watching Jordan's speed. I mean, fourteen through seventeen he missed. He missed four puts in a row that were quite short, and that was really what kept him out out of the winner's circle. What are your impressions of Jordan? And just just this war of attrition out there. It really is like a US open course because the roof is so penal and the

fairways are so firm and fast. I never I've been coming here for a lot of years, I never saw so many guys play irons off of par four teas or hybrids off the par fives that I did this week, because they're so afraid of driving it through the fairway and into the rough and some of those, some of those rough wise can be really gnarly, almost chip out, pitch out, not definitely not go for it, especially with you know, all the lakes they have in this golf course.

So it was neat. It was neat to see. And I believe that appauses for Rhyan French and it. Yeah, it's a short golf course even though it might be seventy four hundred yards on the card, but as firm as they have it and as and as long as the ball runs with these with these hooded irons, so it does sort of play almost like a Churchill Us Open course. And it was sort of a war of attrition. Speech should have won this thing by three shots. He also used to put on twelve that was three and

a half feet. You know, he put it very poorly, no matter what he says. He you know, he has those stretches where he can't help. He seems like he's more likely to make a twenty footer than he has a six footer. Like he just I think it's his overall jumpiness where it just he gets mental. He doesn't know whether to look at the whole or look at

the ball. And he's a little bit like Mickelson, who sometimes and like Fred Couples before him, where these these immense talents, but sometimes it just feels like they lose their feel for the short puts, and it's part of what's stressful. I mean, like he was chipping in, he was hitting, he was hitting some great iron shots, but if he was just like a cat on a hot, hot tin roof out there on the greens, and it's like no hole is ever over With Jordan. We know

that both good and bad. And it was a little dispiriting because I thought that Tita Greene he played really well and it seems like his game is in good working order. Now that we're in you know, bay Hill to me is kind of like the run up that's you've already We've already been in Florida for a while, but somehow Bay Hill is like now it's a sprint

to Augusta. And so I guess I'm encouraged by the way that Jordan hit the ball and navigated the course and kept seemed like he kept as cool until the back. Then on Sunday. Then he went completely mental and so I don't know what to make of it. Yeah, what your impressions of just how he handled it emotionally, the whole thing. And by the way, you know, speaking of major winners, Rory McElroy, Kenny hasn't one of major bays right there, Shuffler Hatton hasn't, but you know he's right there.

I mean Jason day Hoblin not a major winner of Fitzpatrick. I mean, you really had it. Really is a classic case of a good hard golf course with the cream rising in the cup, but weirdness ensuing too, which is which is you know, the ultimate beauty of seventy two whole stroke play golf with a big field period. Jordan just not look I love Jordan, You love Jordan. He does not look ready for prime time to me. He looks really unsure with the driver. He pitches the ball

like an absolute demon. I mean, he pitches it beautifully, and if he lag puts beautifully, some of them go in the hall and then you know what he's gonna do from four feet So how are you going to play augusta National under those conditions? And how are you going to play oh kill for the PHA Championship. It

doesn't conditions. But and this has been the case for a while now, he is making incremental improvements and um, he's not the player he was five years ago, which is weird, but he's but he's better than the player he was three years ago, that's for sure. It's funny how we talk about in Jordan, Like, you know, we all seez on the moral victories and the little kernels of good news. Oh, he pitched it great this week, you know, Like I mean, the guy's already a Hall

of Famer. He had one of the greatest seasons in golf history. Um, but he's there's that fragility there that makes him so compelling. And to be a fan of Speeth and I think we're all a fan of Speeth on some level, it's maddening. And I mean it's certainly the game's way more interesting when he's playing well, but it's also, uh, he can he can give you an ulcer. So that's that's the fun of following Jordan. What was it like for you watch hant Home. Did you find

yourself rooting? I know you root for the story, We root for the story, but who are you actually rooting for Oh Jordan absolutely because he is I mean, that's he's the best story. Like if if Jordan could go out another run and get back to where close to where he was. I mean, he he galvanizes golf Twitter in a way that almost no other player does, and he's just such an appealing person. He's a great ambassador

for the for golf, et cetera, et cetera. But he's just so compelling to watch and he's so fun to watch. And so yeah, I mean, we need Speak to win more, We need Speak to contend in majors. That that would be a big deal. But as you said, it just doesn't seem like he's his game's quite there. So I

was absolutely route for him to get it done. And I mean he played beautifully for you know, the first ten or eleven, twelve holes, but then it just it just went sideways and we, you know, we should definitely acknowledge the winner of the tournament, Kurt Kita Yama, as as Paul Eisinger kept saying on TV, he had about seven different pronunciations get a yamah. He was just really going in on it. I don't know what Zinger was doing,

but it generated some conversation. But Kurt gets Yama is one of those guys who you know as a great living he's been in the top fifty. He could never get it across the line. And as he has a new caddy on his bag, Tim Tucker, who somehow survived the Bryson experiment, so you know he's got some some fortitude and great to see him get it done, especially

with that weird triple bogie on the ninth hole. I mean, I'm sure, justin ray or someone else's research, how many tour winners have made a triple bogie in the final round in recent years, but it can't be many. So that big time performance by him, and it's always fun to see a guy win for the first time. And you know, we use this term probably too often life changing, but this is a life changing win for him, not

only a tour winner, but elevated status. He's got the exemption, he's going to be in all the all the majors, He's going to make it to the Tour Championship probably, like this is the right year in golf to have a breakthrough, and he just had a major breakthrough to make a two on seventeen is astonishing because I mean, I'm I'm standing at the back of the team. I'm thinking maybe my best three would could reach, you know, and to to make you know they're hitting I don't know,

a middle iron and make it a put. Uh that it's big time golf when when you're fighting that triple bogie for the rest of the day, you know you're going to fight it. You're in the last group, you got a caddy who knows what it's like to you see a guy step up and hit big time shots and big time situations. So it's a little tiny degree. You're probably trying to play for the caddy a little bit, not too much, but it is part of it. So yeah, it's neat and you know, it's a great statement about

full field golf with the cut. And let's just talk about the cut for a second on because that's been in the news a lot. Well, let's just start with your feeling about alan You've You've been to live golf probably more than any other report except for maybe Bob harrick Um, what's your feeling about the difference between tournament golf with them without a cut? And I guess we got to bring in the WJC events into that conversation. Yeah,

I love how primal the cut is. You know, it's just such a throwback, Like you get to the you get to the course on Monday and you're grinding and you're practicing, and you've you're you're you're paying your hotel and your food and your and all the bills and your caddy, and you know you can you can just hear the cash register ring in the background. You make one or two mistakes and you're done. You're gone, you're

down the road. You don't get a dollar in the of course that's sort of kind of changed this year with all the players getting a stipend on the PGA Tour, but still that that feeling of you're living on the edge and okay, Roy mcloy misses a cut. It's it's irritating, but it doesn't affect them. But you've got rookies or you've got guys who are just trying to hang on. There is there used to be financial pressure to make the cut, and um there's there's still the emotional um

component to it. I mean, it's the ultimate rejection. It's like you are eye filing a story and the editor saying that's not good enough to print, you know, like it does. It's a blow to the selfless team. And also especially if you're a young player, you're someone trying to generate entom, you're trying to work on something in your game, Like you're denied two tournament rounds. It has an effect. You miss a few cuts in a row, and all of a sudden you're just not getting the

reps you need. And so I like how old school the cut is, you know, as an entertainment product, it makes no sense because and you know, Roy talked about this,

Phil Michelson's talked about this for years. If you're if you're a kid in Orlando and your favorite player is um, you know, pick a guy who who was down the road on Friday afternoon and you can't get out of school and you come on Saturday and you're so excited to see this person play, and they miss the cut, they're not there, Like that's a real letdown for the fans. It makes no sense from a TV standpoint or for

the sponsors. You want your big name players guaranteed on the weekend and most people are watching golf, and you know, if if, if, if these guys missed the cut it if it's a negative for the tournament in every possible way. So I understand the reasoning why they've done away with it, But um, I feel like something essential has kind of been lost and it's a throwback to a different era

and in today's soft modern society. Maybe maybe the cut is anachronism, and that's why I liked it, But I also understand why it's gone or going the way of the the Edsel. You know why Rory McElroy and Philim Mickelson made that argument because they're Rory McElroy and phil Mickelson. In other words, they're not worried. They're not worried about that kid in school. They just want to know if they have a bad Friday, they can still play on the weekend. I don't buy that argument, not in the

not one slightest bit. There is something to be said for a tradition and I and I'm not saying tradition like golf in sports and white don't evolve, because of course they do. But the cut is a fundamental thing. And I mean kaJama could have easily, of course missed this week's cut. Jim Herman, who's a buddy of mine made the cut on the number at Honda, had a great weekend. I think top fifteen for sure, made a check. You know, he's playing for a pension, he's playing to

keep status. Tiger Woods has said repeatedly that you know, of all the Mani records he has, his cut streak is the record that he's proud esso because he means he never ever ever mailed it in on a Friday after a bad Thursday. It's the cut is tremendously democratizing. Now, Phil Mickelson, Rory mclroy here, they might actually agree on something.

They might say, well, the cut is years in the making or two years or one year, or you know whatever in the making, because that's how we got in this position to be in this eighty man field in the first place. But it's not really true. The cut is democratizing because you have enough skill to get into this field of let's call it one forty four, and even if it goes down to one twenty five, you know,

look for Arnold's tournament or or Tigers or Jack's. Everybody starts Thursday on the same level, whether you're whether you're Kirk or to your Roy McElroy or Harris ingish or or or Patrick Cantley. And that is a tremendous thrill. If that kid is gonna miss school, if that kid's not gonna make it till the weekend, he should skip school and get on his bike and uh and forge a note. I mean, come on, and man, I don't buy any of that. That is orshit. You're you just

you're describing a Norman Rockwell painting. I mean, come on, Michael, like you know, Colin Morrikawa missed the cut. He's now a Netflix star. People would have loved to have watched him on Saturday and Sunday. I mean, the coin is a Netflix star. Alan, you're around golf. When does anybody ever stop you at a cocktail party and say do you tell me about that? Call In Marikawa? Well, okay, but I mean, you know, Deci Mataya, I'm a biggest star on an entire continent. He missed the cut, that's true.

I'm sure that the TV ratings plummeted in Japan for the bay Hill Classic on Saturday and Sunday. Like, um, you know, I'm just saying that dudelay. Okay, Well, Michael has become the play better troll. I love it. I mean, yes, I'm not fully defending this, this new version of the PGA Tour, but I think it's a nod to market forces and Alan. Name name me a w g SC event. Is that what they called WJC World called j W Name me one, not counting like Tiger Firestone or some

weirdness or Adam Scott. A Firestone would be a better example. Namee one. You can do any play by play and remember anything resembling a motion by Sunday evening. Yeah, the wc's were mostly a dub, There's no doubt. And I mean on some level the cut is humane because if you're if you're a great player and you're in bad form, do you want to have to slog it out on

Saturday and Sunday when you're twenty shots back? I mean, um, you're gonna see the give a Ship meter on at some of these events for these guys where you know, when they when they played bad, they used to have in the weekend off and so but you know, just to make sure all the listeners are with us here.

There was a big news break early in the week at bay Hill because Jay Monahan had a player's only meeting on Tuesday night, and they talked about what it's been a huge question, what are the designated slash elevated events gonna look like in twenty four. Twenty three was always gonna be this transitional year that this everything was done on the fly, came out of the Delaware secret meeting.

The tour just kind of had the center had to hold for twenty and twenty three while they sorted everything out. And so they've announced for twenty four that they're going to be all these designated events are gonna be no cut, feel to be very small, seventy to eighty players and that's it. And it's very much like a World Golf Championship,

which is a franchise that has basically died. Of course, you can't talk about this without acknowledging that this is the liv golf model, small field, no cut, guaranteed money. And you know, MIKEA and I have both made the point, I think previously that the best argument that the PGA Tour had in this battle for the soul of golf was that we are pure competition and those guys are just getting paid and it's more of an exhibition and

certainly losing the cut. That eliminates a lot of that discussion. Now week to week, the other thirty plus events on the PGA Tour are going to be full field and they're gonna have a thirty six soul cut. So there's still going to be that old model, but the biggest, now, the most important, the most scrutinized events have definitely gone down the Live road in at least in appearance. Now. I did a podcast of Pira Malnadi and other players have talked about it's different because Live truly is a

closed shop. These guys are guaranteed to be on there for the whole year. They're the same forty eight players are gonna play in every tournament. Whereas they've built into this tour model, there's going to be churned and there's gonna be ways to play your way into the elevated events. So if you're you know, a Kurt kita Yama and you get on a heater early in the year, you can play your way into the field. It's not totally closed shot, but we'll have to see how that plays

out in actuality. You know, Malnadi talked about thousands of computer models and looked like maybe up to a third of the of the field would turn over year to year, but that's an open question and how it's going to play out in real life. So there's differences, but they're subtle, and I think from an appearance standpoint, the tour took a step backwards year by by getting away from its roots.

And I know you agree with that, Michael, I do, and I don't want to dismiss because I'm not at all the value of having the best players on the PJ Tour in the same field more often than they were in the Phil and Tiger era because that was not working where it did work in Jack and Arnie's day.

So something had to give, something had to change. And even though it's such a hockey lousy phrase, but this elevat event but having some big money, you know, distinguishing between Tiger's event, Jack's event, Arnold's event, the Four Majors, the players, some other historic events, and somehow creating an atmosphere or heyday where it's going to be irresistible for the best players to be there. Well, that's how Greg Norman came to the United States in the first place.

That's why he savvy experimental playing the United States was the best players, the best courses, and the and the best pay days. Um. But once you go down that road and then you start tinkering with the fundamental value of what golf is, which is, you know, fair competition for everybody in the field, then I think you've gone

too far. And I'm not pretending to understand it. But you know, with all due respect to Peter and you know in the in the outstanding interview you did with him, Um, if you need all these computer models to figure out what your sport is in the first place, that's not a good sign. Because Michael Jordan played the same game as Bob Kuzy, you know, yeah, minor changes, but not really really, and they're both legends for all time. And if you if you've made the basket nine five or

made the ball smaller, you'd have a different game. These are institutions and our life, these sports that we love, our institutions in our life, and they have to be tinkered with very gently. And this isn't gentle. Well that's well said. I mean it speaks to a larger thing.

I mean, it's funny how Phil just provided a roadmap for all this and that freighted phone call I had with him, because you know, one of the things he went on and on about was the imbalance in the governance on tour in that the stars drive the whole product and they need to be catered to. But there's a vast number of quote unquote journeyman's last middle class tour players and they have all the votes, and so the stars really couldn't get any couldn't make any structural

change anything went up for a vote. The default is always gonna be more playing opportunities, more trickled down for the guys who are just trying to keep their card and all that stuff. And what we've really seen here is the top players are completely hijack the tour and they're making all the decisions for themselves. And you can argue that's a good thing. They you know, people were tuning in to watch Jordan Spieth and Rory McElroy, you

know they were. They probably weren't tuning in to watch Kurt kid Yama, even though he put on a hell of a show. And so it's okay. I mean, you see it in basketball, where now the top players are basically de facto gms and they're picking their own teams. That you see it in the college sports now where the nil money gives gives these kids so much more power. It's just an evolution where the bureaucracy is losing out to the star players. It may not be a good

thing or a bad thing. It's hard, you can you can go back and forth on that, but it's just a thing. It's just a reality. And so and this is not new. I mean, there's Nicholas and Palmer who invented the modern PG tour in nineteen sixty eight with their rebellion. You know, Jack came back for seconds in nineteen eighty three and tried to get Dean Beamon fired

kind of backfired on him. But like the top players have always wanted to have more say and more control, and of course they're going to shape things that are beneficial for them. But it just finally has happened in golf. And you know Roy McElroy Tiger Woods, like they seem to be acting in the best interests of the tour they're asked, they're also acting in their self interests. They're

making a ton of money in different ways. They've they've created their own breakaway league and um that's a competitor in some ways for eyeballs with with the PGA Tour, but they have the tours blessing because they have to keep top players happy, and so it's a it's just an interesting moment in the sport where where the power structure is shifted and it's not about the commissioner, and it's not about the guys who are fifty to one hundred and fifty on the money list like it's it's

about the top stars and they have they have reshaped the whole tour into in their own image, and we're gonna see how it plays out. I mean, if if they turn it into it a bad product and the fans's interests, then that's going to affect their own their own livelihoods. But in the short term, they're getting what they want. Alan, as somebody one said, you've got the best words. But if it were twelve golfers, would you

say that's too few? Twelve golfers per tournament? I'm just curious. Yeah, of course you say that's two if you okay, of course, yeah, that'd be boring. All right, okay, all right, let me ask you this. How often does Justin Thomas's name just come into your mind idly over the course of the day, or call Americawa or Matt Fitzpatrick or Victor Hoblin or Jason Day. I don't even know who Bradley is on

this leaderboard. There's a number of them. In other words, these players that you speak of as stars, they're not stars. They're just really good at golf. And the reason we're drawn to them at all is because they're beating big fields of other guys. All of them are really good at golf. The difference between Harris English and Rory McElroy is in line and four times out of ten Harris

English actually can beat Rory McIlroy. And we're looking to see what's going to happen on the on the margins us a phrase a friend of mine muss, Yeah, that's well, says I mean, that's that's tournament golf, and that's the competitive impulse that made us drawn to this game in the first place. And when you really start to examine what the Phil Nicholson's and Rory mcroys, it's hilarious that we're talking about them in the same breath, given how

different they are. It's really about making more money and James James Han excuse me, not James conn. James Han said this beautifully in an interview with Golf Week, I think, just last week, and I agree with every word that he said. And and I understand, I understand the value of true star power. Even Big Jack himself didn't have star power, he had greatness power. Even now Tiger is a special case. Really he's hard to classify Arnold of course at star power. Hogan didn't have star power, he

had greatness power. So I and you, you achieve you, we really can find out who's great by beating everybody. You know, when Ted Williams at four h six he beat the whole league in hitting. It wasn't just like he had one picture's number. He had everybody's number. And that's what made it such a monumental feet to bet over four hundred. So I just feel like I understand they want to get more top players in the field, but I think they're overdoing it. Actually, well that's another

subject for you. If you want me to segue here, Oh go ahead, no floors. I'm enjoying the passion. Keep no finish no no no no no no no no no. You finish your one thought, and then I got something that no one a marshal alan, you and I have a lot of experience in this. These marshals, God bless them, are the most boring conversationalists in the world. Today. I talked to a marshal who is unbelievably attuned to golf and had an observation that I never consider that I'm

goal layout on your hair in a minute. But you finished that one thought about competitiveness, and that will move on here. The suspense is killing me. Well, all I was going to say is, ironically, the World Golf Ranking, which of course is under siege right now, agrees with your assessment. I mean they the whole formula has been recast to favor full fields under the premise that it's harder to beat one hundred and fifty five guys than it is to beat seventy nine or sixty nine guys,

no matter who they are. Like, this has been baked into the math, and so that's what's ironic is these these small, little elevated events are going to get less World Ranking points than they could have because the World Ranking has put its official stamp of approval on the concept that beating a lot of players is harder than beating a smaller number your respective of where they might ran in the ranking. So anyway, let's hear about this, Marshal.

You have my full attention. The Marshal said to me, Okay, this course is seventy yards is way too short? Augusta National and seventy what is the Augustin National? Yeah, a little more, way too short? Okay, like a joke compared to what you know what they played with a bloat the ball in a wooden club. Any fantasy that Jack Nicholas or anybody else might have had about the ball being rolled back, This is straight from the marshall. I

wish I had the guy's name. The chance of that happening now with the emergence of live golf is zero point zero because live golf, of course, is you know, golf, but louder music, shotgun that whole thing. Also the power game. Brooks kept good, Dustin Johnson, Phil Mickelson, everybody else who

can bombit, bombit, bombit. And if the PJ Tour of the USA said, oh, we want a smaller ball, we want a shorter course, we want this, it would get laughed out of existence, even though it would be better for golf every way to Sunday afternoon, to have shorter golf courses with shorter walks, more shot making and all the rest. It will never happen because of the saudis inredible ability to use the word of the moment just

erupt and they have been very effective. I agree with the what the Marshall said, I'd never thought about and I agree that Alan. Tell me your take on the Marshall's insight. This is the wildest thing about this moment in golf. Mohammed and bid Salon is affecting Jordan speeds club selection on the par four's at bay Hill. But you're right. I mean, I said, I don't know four or five years ago that to really test the tour players, of course has to be ten thousand yards, and everyone

was so mad about it. But it's just true. If you want guys to have to hit long irons into par fours and some part threes and have a few three shot par fives, I mean, is nothing that's driver wedge and um. But yeah, you're you're absolutely right. I mean, the live would just they would just if the USGA did,

and I don't think they They're in that business. And I think it's Mike Want's personality, but they've sort of been lumbering towards this idea of bifurcation, at least on the pro level, and and Want has signaled his support. I don't I don't know if you'd do it unilaterally, but you know, live Golf would just be like a local rule. We're keeping the old equipment. And and you're right, people want to watch Dustin Johnson drive it three sixty.

They want to watch them drive it, you know, two eighty and so, um, I hadn't thought of it in those terms. I think your Marshall might be a genius and we should get them on the podcast. But um, yeah, that's that's a factor. I mean, I'm embarrassed I didn't get a saying but that was a good insight. Yeah, and it's even I mean, I if you really want to go have a dark, chilling thought, I like the is the where twenty three? Or they gonna start dictating

course conditions? Are they are they gonna tell the super at Bay Hill? You know what, it's not fun to play under these conditions, Like what are the greens Man cut the rough? Like you're making us look bad and because they hold all the cards and that you know, the whole tours now catering to these guys. Is that going to happen? I don't know, but you can see it.

I mean if if they're trying to make golf more fun and more accessible and and uh, you know like John ROMs, certainly he's he's limping out of here with his tail between his legs. And um, it's it's an interesting thought like how now the now the players have been given a taste of this power, how far are they going to go? Are they going to demand that the tour has his own set of rules? I mean, like, um, that internal out of bounds that almost cost Kurt Kitiyama

this tournament? Like you know, maybe that next year that's going to get redone because Patrick Cantley is going to throw a fit about it, and you know in some some meeting, Like I don't, I don't know where this is going. It's fascinating to think when when all of a sudden you let the let the players have too much power. We'll see how it plays out. There could be a whole trickle down. But I think I think

that Marshal's onto something. Yeah, I think the churning point for me and recognizing that the power structure had changed was really Oakmont. Was that twenty sixteen when when Dustin Johnson went to Oakmont and there was everybody's side with Dustin Johnson and nobody sided with the USA. It was one hundred percent in favor of Dustin Johnson. Yeah, man,

you got screwed. And the USGA Brensi No, Actually, our job is to administer the game as best we can, and it was a confusing situation and we had to find out what was right. Nobody cared about that. Everyone cared about Yeah, man, Dustin Johnson, you got screwed when the fact is that ball moved under his watch, right. And what was interesting about that situation was it happened in real time because players who had finished early or had missed the cut, because the cut matters, they were

tweeting it at the USGA as it was all playing out. Well, Dustin was on the fourteenth hole or whatever it was. They helped shape the debate in real time, and so that that was an interesting case study for sure. But um, yeah, it's it's going to be interesting. I actually have a call on tomorrow or Tuesday with a tournament director of UM, a long time event on the PG tour, I can say no more than that because he doesn't I had to agree to certain rules because he doesn't want to

and he's fears retribution. But he's extremely upset about the way the tour has restructured itself because his event is never going to be elevated and he's now looking at a future. Yeah, it's bleak, even if, even if, even if, if he got twenty five million, they wouldn't elevate. You see, I think in this same age where money absolutely rules, if this guy could come up with twenty five million, it would be elevated without knowing us. I don't even

know if maybe I mean this person is. It's where the tournament falls on the schedule as it relates to other events that will be elevated. Something would have to really change. And the current sponsor is basically maxed out now and there's no way they're to find another ten million dollars like they were already questioning the commitment about it does make fun? Does this pencil out for us anyway?

And you double the price like you're right, anything's possible, and the tour is going to try and move the elevated events around just to make people happy. Like I'm excited because they're Pebble is going to be elevated next year, and that has not officially been announced, but everyone locally kind of knows that to be the case, and other players has whispered about it. But that's going to be cool to finally get a great field that Pebble beats.

And you know, they're probably going to drop the amateurs after thirty six holes. They're only going to play two courses instead of three. I mean, the entire charm and structure and history of that tournament is going to sort of be discarded. But it's just the new world order. If you want, if you want to get all the top players, then you got to play ball. And again, the players have the power. They don't they don't want

to play with amateurs. They don't want to have to learn a third course like okay, fine, guys, whatever it takes to get you here. And so it's I'll be curious to talk in more detail with this tournament director. I've already interviewed a few. They're very scuttish about going on the record, but they definitely they fear for the future of the tour be because you're still you now have thirty events that are going to struggle to get anybody.

And Peter Malnati, I love Peter Malnati, He's a gent I think he made some good points, but he was basically saying, well, you've got this middle tier guys they're going to carry the tour now because they have to

play a lot to try and get the elevated. And you know, he sided Gary Woodland and and Frankie Molinari, who I know you love, and Billy Horssel, like those were his examples, like this is gonna be great for the tour because they're gonna play John Deer, They're gonna play these other events because they're not the elevators, but they want to get there. And if you're pinning your entire business model on Francesco Mallnari and Gary Woodland and

Billy Horssel, that's a tough sell for these sponsors. You know, if you're not going to get the stars. Um that that middle that middle tier I don't think is enough to really and bring the sponsors back. So we're heading into a whole new era on the tour and there's going to be it's great eight weeks a year when when these guys are playing, and it's obviously been it's been fun. I mean you went from from Cappelua to Phoenix to Riviera to Bay Hill like it's been bang

bang bang, and these have all been fun events. And the question is what's going to happen in the weeks in between and how much contraction is they're going to be And Adam Scott said it to me at Cappelui's like the market's going to decide. It's that simple, like we're gonna see the sponsors are gonna leave. We know that how many what what's gonna What's what's going to happen week to week? Like those are the unknowns. He's like, the these like top guys are getting what they want,

but what's that gonna mean for the whole tour. It's it's an open question and that's just been that's been codified now and it's gonna be fascinating to watch the play out. I'm as interested in anybody else because we don't know. I think you're more interested in the most alan if you were at the if you were at them, if you were at the Players Championship. In Commissioner Jay Monahans Tuesday press conference, you have just one chance to ask him a question in a public forum, which I

know is not your thing or mine. Um bo, would you ask him? I will say, as I've you know, I've talked about this. I think people know I'm writing a book about this, the Live versus the tour and all the subplots, and I've learned so much, and I've tunneled so deep, and a lot of people have told me a lot of things are not public knowledge. My analysis of Monahan's performance has been elevated. You know, he did some things in the background that turned out to

be quite effective. And even though his response was seemed a little flat footed, you look at the players they've held on too. I mean, I don't think if you if you maybe my question, Actually this might be my question from Monahan. If there was a draft and you could pick any players you want off of Live and bring them back to the tour, no harm, no foul, who would you want And he would probably only say

Dustin Johnson. I'm not sure that too many of the other guys are missed, and they're maybe Cam Smith because he's he's such a transcendent talent. But to your earlier point, he's not really a star. I mean, he could walk around at the mall here in Monterey and no one would know who he is. And he's kind of an introvert.

I mean, he doesn't give you much in the interviews, and he's not dashingly handsome, like like an Adam Scott like who I'm not sure that that Monahan would want too many of those guys back in any scenario other than Dustin. And so, you know, the tours held on to this core of really nice guys, you know, the Rory's, the Maxihamas, the John Rams like these are gents and they're great players, and now they're getting them together. I mean,

I don't I don't think. I think for all the all the battering that Monahan has taken and all the thoughts that he's got to go to salvage the situation, I feel like in some ways he's prevailed. I mean, he's got more buying from his stars than he's ever had. They're getting they're getting more money in their pocket. The tour schedule had gotten so bloated that it needed some contraction. It was sort of forced upon him. But it's going to happen and probably make the overall mechanics work better.

The players are on board for, you know, more innovation in the telecast, with the on course interviews and other things, like the players kind of realize, all right, we're in an existential battle here and we've got to give something back. And so i'd have to think about my question to Monahan, but I like that one, like who would you want back?

And I think it'd be a short lists, and so, um, you know, Monahan's weathered the storm and the tour has been reshaped, not fully of under his own making, but it's a grand experiment. We're gonna see what happens. But his top players have never been happier. And the second tier tournament directors can grumble all they want, but you know, those those events were not the ones that drive the tour. They're just not. And so that that's been made very plain.

And there's a dar wining and component to this. But um, if if the tour loses six or eight tournaments, they still have a full schedule. There's still a lot of playing opportunities, and um, it's just all about the stars now. And the stars are happy and and they they're they bought into the system, and that's just how they're plowing ahead.

What would your question being, I think that is extreme, you know, Alan, I think that is a really insightful answer, because not only has Monahan whether the storm is really and he has because he still has the but even more sign the PGA Tour Undermonahan's leadership really has whether you like it or not, whether you're you're on board with every little thing that's happened or a big thing that has happened or not. The PGA Tour could have caved and could have died, not die. That would be

too strong. It could look totally different, and it doesn't. And that required a lot of skill. Now to Phil Michelson's point, it also required a lot of money, and they had a lot of money. Who knows where these cookie jars who are sitting and what out of the blue they seem to have come up. What's the number, Alan, Well, well, north of one hundred million dollars for twenty three right, what is that? You know? I think it's one hundred and fifty three million dollars, you know, So that was

a big help. But they had to make a lot of very a very good place, and so they have. You know, they they're gonna get through twenty three and they're probably gonna get three twenty four. Long term, long term, the pha jur will just look different if it really goes down on this road, I think when it's all said and done, just to speak of three iconic players with iconic or semi iconic events, Nicholas's tournament memorial, Tigers, Rivieria, the Arna Palmer inputational here at bay Hill, they will

look weird without full fields. And does a full field have to be one forty four? No? You know, the Master's sort of shows that. But there is a grandeur to the US Open and the British Open that the Masters does not have because of because because of the size of the field. Yeah, I think it's true. I

mean I don't know he you know, Monahan. I don't know if Monahan would answer your question, who would you actually want, even though I think Dustin Johnson would be the answer, because I think Tiger is telling people everybody we lost is somebody I don't want to hang out with, except for Dustin Johnson, you know, Charlie Howell, maybe Hendrik Stenson maybe, but I'll say this about Charlie Howell's whin. Yeah, so Charlie Charlie Howell's win, and we love Charlie Howe.

We've been around Charlie Howell and he's a great talker and there's you know, he's got a great spirit about him. He's been a terrific ambassador for what the PGA too represented for a long time. But his win had zero impact personally on me. But really, I'm except for his bank account, you know, what did that wind actually matter? So then you know, it's just like some meaningless movie that you see on a Saturday night that you're never going to think about again. I mean, that's well said.

At the same time, it's like, I don't know, is it we'll see Is Kurt Kittiyama's win going to register in the sports landscape? Is it gonna change professional golf? Like I think one of the things that Live Golf made plane is that week to week the players are businessmen. They are trying to maximize their opportunities. They're trying to win as much money as they can, and they're not as romantic about it. Like you know, Phil's grandfather carried at Pebble Beach. He's won the clam Bake five times.

He goes to dinner parties all week long. He's the toast of the town. It's hard to imagine that Phil just renounced the Crosby clam Bake. But I don't think he misses it. It's just like he was there, he did his thing. He always played with the CEO to try it further his endorsement deals, and now he's gone. Like I think, I think for Charles Howe, if you whether you win and live Myacoba or you win at the Honda Classic, I think it feels the same to

him in a lot of ways. The majors are the differentiators. Maybe a couple of tournaments that you have some romantic attachment. Everyone wants to win Rivere because it's a great course and because Tiger's the host. But that didn't mean much to you know, uh Nieman. He was like, you didn't even come back and defend you know, the players, the Fifth Major, the Crown Jewel, the PJ Tar camp Smith's not gonna be their next week. You don't care. Like

I think that we overrate the sentimentality. These guys are the definition of professional golfer, someone who plays golf for money, and that's what these guys are. And I had an agent tell me last year it was a great quote which you have to understand what every professional golfer is. They're a whore. And it was a little harsh, but that was that was a legit sentiment. So I think you and I what does that make the agent? What

does that make the agents? He's the pimp um obviously, And but you and I are prone to um, to sentiment and to romance and to poetry. But for these guys, it's a business. And I think that's what live Golf has made obvious and um and and everything that's followed. You have to look through that lens. And it's kind of a drag for for you and I who want to who want to wax nostalgic. But the players are getting what they want, which is more money. That's what

they want. It's not about the nostalgia for them. So UM, I think when you, when you look at it in those terms, it all makes more sense, even though it's saddened. I guess you'll be looking, you know, view the way given what you just said. And I don't disagree with

any of it. Um careers will be shorter and uh, because you'll you'll make your you'll make big money over a short amount of time and then you'll play your way off of the Live Tour, you'll play your way out of the top eighty on the PGA Tour, and you'll have made enough money and you're not gonna want to go start playing you know, the smaller colonial type events whence you had a taste of the of the elevated events and the long long JA has kind of career,

it'll be over and uh, and that'll be that'll be to me, it'll be a shame too. But maybe I'm just revealing my attachment to the game that I grew up on, which I'm never gonna appod to because I love that game. Yeah, we don't want you to apologize. And you know there's there's still a place for the

for the the surprise winners. I mean we saw it at Bay Hill, like I know that you have an affection for for the the golfers who have the powerful lower bodies, the John rams a savory packs, you know, with these tree trunk legs, and they just like power

through the golf swing. And we should we shoul acknowledge that Kurt Kadiyama has one of the all time great nicknames, which is quad Zilla because his quads are so thick, and um, you know, it was fun to see him get it done and it really did change his life. And as much as that term has been thrown around in golf, like he's this is the year for a break,

but he's got a job for two years. That's cool. Yeah, absolutely, so there's there's still room for romance, but um, it's become more of a business and that's just that's just how it is. Okay, I'm just gonna we probably shot the subject for today anyway, But I just want to

take option to one thing. And I have the highest regard for Adam Scott, But when Adam Scott is describing to you this business model that will work, I don't agree that because I think the business model, if you're going to use that phrase for this whole thing and isn't really a business even in the in the first case it just sort of turns out to be business.

Is the fact that people love to play golf and therefore love to see the people who do at best play at the highest level and that's why Colin marcawar to degree has any public position at all is because he plays. It's not because of his haird or his zeek or you know, good with reporters. It's his golf skill. Period. That's what we're drawn to. That's what drives this whole train.

And just like it drives Major League Baseball, everybody's playing baseball as a kid, just as it's driven the NBA basketball, skiing and all the rest of When you've got a support with a huge, massive participation population and then they get to watch the best of the best do it, it's really neat. And if it's one level lower like Corn Ferry, or one layer lower belower like JC Goosey used to be many levels lower, it's not the same thing.

You want to watch the best of the best. That is really quote the business model, and it's not a business model at all. It's just human nature. I want to say, the best do their thing. Yeah, well, well said, I think we have exhausted this topic. But it's a fascinating one. And you know, I didn't know we're gonna go down this road. But that's that's the fun thing about these podcasts. We just go where the where the muse takes us. But m Michael, I'm glad you're at

Bay Hill. I can't wait to read your story about George Speith and all the hijinks on Sunday. Then you know, we have we have a big event next week, Players Championship. I mean, it's gonna be weird that camps and it's not there. They probably won't be mentioned once on NBC or Golf Channel that the defending champion has renounced the tournament, which is supposed to be, you know, the fifth major.

But you can set aside those scenes. You're gonna have a lot of great players on an iconic golf course and it's gonna be fun, and you and I will be two new Yeah. I mean, let's talk about where we really are in the golf season, because this has been, you know, the case now for a few years. March, April, May, June, July. You know, I'm not saying the Players is at the same level as US Open, in the British Open, because

it's not. But the Players is a great event, and and of course the four Majors, and then you take a month off and then the Ryder Cup. You know, this is the core of the golf season. We're playing and we're watching, and so if you like golf, it's a great time to be alive. I love that, well said Michael. Um, and I love the enthusiasms you bring to it and that despite the market forces, Uh, you still you still are romantic at heart, and we salute you. Uh. This has been another and want to I want to

make a plug for a PGA tour entertainment. Can I make a plug here for appreciate to our entertainment? Please? Why? I don't know. I'm sitting in their seat and they haven't kicked me out, So thank you. There you go. Um, I'd like to make a plug for the Classic Wood and Golf Tea by Maximoma. I wish I loved anything you play golf. I wish I love anything in this world as much as Michael loves a good golf tea. I mean, it's really charming. But anyway, thank you for listening.

For those of you out there, we appreciate your fidelity and we'll be back in your ear soon. So for Michael Bamberger, this is Alan Schipnak. That was a fire drill and now we're done. Idig play the wind made a fortune. Within my ship game, I ran a table, never thought I could fall, then win hit me like a cannon and ball, And now I can't shake this losing the stream. Every road I take is a dead end stream. I got thoughts in my head, can't get them out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about.

I got thoughts in my head. I can't get them out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about.