Fire Drill 066: Tiger Roars and Rahm Delivers

Well we have one, so go check it out. It's about the grinders and what life looks like for people not flying in private plants. Um. So this week's episode, Matt joined us Michael Allen myself and we talked John ram in his domination. We obviously talked Tiger Uh. He was the biggest story of the week despite Ron's Rom's dominant u Uh. We talked Bernhard Longer in his dominance on the Champions Tour. And so another great conversation with a lot of great stories from everybody. I mean, it's

everything that I love about the Fire Drill. It's the four of us talking golf. Here we go that do my head can't get jan Nothing think what I'm thinking about. That can't get him. Now, Jen not to think what I'm thinking about. Hello, this is Alan ship Knuck back for another Fire Drill podcast, as always, joined by Michael Bamberger and Ryan French, and today we have the pleasure

of Matt Janella joining us. We have Philadelphia, ocean side, and the heartland of America covered and I'm here in northern California, so we've all been tuned to to the final round at Riviera. John Ram is a monster. He's the Master's favorite. He's the clear number one in the world, no matter what some dumb math formulas says. Um command performance by John Ram? Uh, what do we I mean, we're talking about this guy all year. He seems like

he's winning every week. But uh, Riviera is a place where Tiger Woods never won or Jack Nicholas and Ram actually mentioned that he was aware of that unusual statistic and uh said to be meaningful to pick one off here. It's an elevated event. There's all these different layers to this. But what do you guys think of this performance in this victory long past? Uh? The I mean, the guy is ridiculous it's it's like, I mean, I he's how is he not the favorite every time he tees it up?

And no matter what course it is, I mean, he's Uh. There was a lot of debate on this show, on this podcast on others of like is camp Smith is John Ram? The best player in the world right now is Max Homa uh alst general, the dude is ridiculously good and uh a stone cold killer and complains more than any best offer in the world I've ever seen in my life. That's part of his charm. You know. If we don't get to see cam Smith playing on the PGA Tour anymore, if he were, he possibly give

this guy a run for his money. But lacking that, uh, we don't have him. I mean this camp Smith makes puts from everywhere and uh probably puts better and chips better and pitches better than anybody in the game. Uh. So it's kind of really hard to know. Uh. It was a wonderful tournament. It's a great dis super Viera. Uh, but it kind of does make you miss some of the some of the people who aren't in the field.

I'm not taking a single thing away from John Ram, uh, but it is a little Yeah, he's the runaway best call from the Putriot Tour right now. But the putret Tour is missing some big talents. That's a good point, Matt. What do you think, Well, I think it's it's Rom. I think, you know, Ram has proven himself to be the guy who to go to to get to number one, you've got to go through Rom and Scottie Scheffler went

through Rom to get there. And I think other players are going to try to to compete with him, but it's it's it's his for the taking and keeping for the foreseeable future. He's going you know, I don't think there's going to be this long chunk of time where John Ram isn't able to perform at a very high level, regardless of the course, regardless of the conditions of the course, set up of the course, whether it's a major and

elevated event, Ryder Cup. He's a beast. He you know, he's his focus is being number one and being the greatest of all time and winning as many you know, like he's a product of Sevy Tiger technology, you know, athleticism, he's got, He's got everything and and and a focus.

I've told this story recently on one of these podcasts of adjacent day event and everyone's partying and frattonizing and having fun, and all he was doing was just hitting shots, competing against himself or competing against anybody wanting to compete against him. He's he's built for this and and I just don't see him, you know, letting go of that

wheel anytime, since it's gonna be fun to watch. I mean, that's a great point because Rory his for a while now, has seemed ambivalent about uh, you know, he wants he wants to de emphasize results and not let them define him. And he wants to you know, be uh an ambassador and a statesman and a dad and a husband and you know, a book critic. It seems like sometimes golfers way down the list for him, and a brand builder and a visionary and an a venture capitalist and all

these things. Rom just wants to win tournaments. He wants to be number one. Like his life is simple and um as you say, Matt like he he he doesn't try and hide from it. He's he's very open with his ambition, and I think that frees him up, you know, where Roy is almost conflicted, like, oh, it's golf too important. And uh, for Ram it's like it's it's the sun and the moon for him. And that's what I like.

I mean that it's always frustrating when you have a massive talent who doesn't chase it as hard as they could write in any sport um and sometimes Roy it feels that way Rory, but with Rom it's like, just bring it on, man. He wants it every week. And to me, I mean that's why I love and a great athlete. Alan. Where is Rom with he still managed by Steve Layers any? Yes? And does Lloyd still managed Phil? Yes? And what what are the other relationships there? He's he's

good friends who hills her? And yeah, yeah, I mean Tim Mickelson was Rom's agent until he decided to become Phil's full time caddy. And I mean I asked Rom about this not that long ago, and uh, I guess it was in Cappalua and he said, he's still friends with Phil. You know, they they'll still play recreational golf. He still respects him. They just have a strong disagreement on, you know, where to make their living. But you know one thing that's been impressive about Rom is in this

very um acrimonious time for professional golf. He's been a voice of reason and and you know, gentleness, and he's been conciliatory. You know, he's he he it's been genuine from him where he said, you know, I wish we could all be together. I'd like these guys on the Ryder Cup team. And I was just talking to a a live golfer who must remain anonymous unfortunately, and he was basically like funk Rory, like that guy. Were so

tired of his sanctimony. But Ram Rom's cool, you know, I seem around He's really cool to all of us. I thought it was it was just that's the feeling a lot of the guys on that tour. Um. You know, the Ram is as state above the fray, even as he's you know, been a strong advocate for the tour and he's he's you know, he's his his his allegiance to the tour, his fealty to the tour has been very important. But um, he's managed to very to walk a very fine line where he can still say nice

things about to live guys. You can still hope that we can put the game back together. And and I think he's kind of been elevating all this as as just a voice of reason. He's sort of Dustin Johnson like in that regard, one might say Dustin Johnson is to America with John ram is too to to Europe. You know, just sort of people like him, even though uh they don't resent his talent and uh, you know, and he just walks a fine line of being honest and standing for golf, which there's not a lot of

that right now. Yeah. No, nobody has shown really any any ill will towards Dustin for going to live, which is amazing. But part of it is because he very publicly resigned his PGA tour membership in the in the beginning, and he didn't sign on to the lawsuits. And that's why a lot of the tour guys been bitter because they're getting sued by their ex colleagues and and they feel like a lot of them and they wanted both ways. They want to play in the FedEx Cup, they want this,

they want that. You know, Dustin has never asked for any of that. He's he's always just said, hey man, I took the money, I'm having fun and um, and he's he's made his position very clear. So I think you're right. No one's mad at at Rom, no one's mad at Dustin. Everyone else is kind of caught in the shrapnel. But Ryan, have you ever had a chance to get to a riviera? I did. Uh. I candied

for Mark in a pro am last year. Uh. For those that are listening that don't know, there's a lot of pro ams that happened that are not associated with the like the actual Wednesday program that most people know. So, Uh, there's a lot of pros that get paid to Mark. I got paid three to thousand dollars and uh, and we Mark and I talked about it this week. Is uh. I mean it just shows the top players how good they are. I think Mark shot like one hunder or

something like that, and he like hit it. That course is so hard and like to think that whatever he finished that it's just ridiculous. The place was ridiculously good. So for the for the three of you guys, and so all four of us have been there, and I'm sure Matt Nollen uh like you've probably been there lots over the years. Uh. What do you think of the course? Uh? And there's a lot of ways to say this is the start of the PGA Tour, but getting to Riviera

is a staple of the PGA Tour season. What what was it like for you guys seeing the golf course on TV? Go ahead, Matt, and I know you have some feelings on this. No, I mean, I love the golf course. I love I love the tournament. I love how it separates players who are playing great from players who are not playing great. You know, over four days, you know, four rounds, all the different shots you have to do, you have to hit, all the different great

iron shots you have to hit. Where you miss matters, I mean in so many way, shapes and forms. Um. I just it's Golden Age, Golden Age architecture at its finest. It's it gets lauded by the by the architectural geeks, but it also gets appreciated by people who just love love great golf. It gets, you know, gets it's got respect from the greatest players of the game, from the modern day architects. It's marveled for. It's marveled at for

all the right reasons. I love. You know, it's got controversial or you know, the tenth hole, it's elf creates so much great debate. Um, and you know, Home averting it all four days. Of course he did because he appreciates, understands, you know, respects great architecture, strategy. He's a thinking you know, he's a thinker out there on the golf course. You know,

I just I love Rivera. You know, I think Daniel Rapp report said, oh, this is the greatest course of the PGA Tour season, and there's not a close second. I disagree with that. I think just at the A T and T, you have three golf courses that are in the conversation whether or not you think pebbles better than Rivera, or Spyglass is better than Pebble, or Monterey Peninsula Shore is in the conversation. I think they're in

the conversation. I I love Rivera for all that it provides, um and and I wish we had more of it on the tour where it's not necessarily just about like brute strength and length and you have to move it right and left and long and short. UM. I think it's it is. It's a fabulous venue. Thankfully we get to see the best players play it. It's a private golf course, not a lot of us, of any of us whatever us is gets to play it. So it's fun to watch it and and and and enjoy it

every every year. I agree with every word of that. But you know, watching today the you know the fourth hold that that very damn part three. You know, only fourteen percent in the field actually in regulation and it's just a bad hole. They got to redo that green, Like you can't have a part three, but no one can hold the green and so that's a little blemish. And ten, I mean I've always you say, Fort Dollan, did you say fourteen percent of the players hit that green? Yeah,

that's a joke. I mean that Shinka kills level joke. Yeah, And I mean that that's on that's a mis factor. That's a modern day green speed. But you know, and things have to be things have to evolve and adjust and maybe they look at those numbers say okay, we have to adjust it. You know, a tweak there would be very helpful. Even the problem with ten is that

the green has gotten so extreme. I mean, what's great about a a drive all part four is you can actually drive the green, right, nobody can drive the green there. It's impossible to hold it. So then the smart play like is just to lay it up out there to the left, and it's basically now like a fifty yard

Part three. You just laid up a little short left, you pitch it on and okay, but but hold let me just stop you there for a second, because if you say it's a drivable part four, maybe it's not a drivable far it's just a short for short for

doesn't mean it's drivable. Just because it's short doesn't mean you should be able to actually drive it, I guess, But I mean people used to try, and but now it's just like the penalty that it's so extreme around that green if you're if you're out of position, you can easily make a six. And so the plays become more and more just to go out there to the left and just kind of pitch it on and um. So I think you're right. I mean, you're right. MAT's

how you define it. But if you if you're twenty years ago, it was a drive all part four and people try to drive it, and you could drive it, and and now it's just like, I don't know, I think that you talk about evolution because of the equipment and everything else. I think that hole is evolved for the worst so that's my look, complaint Riviera. You have two holes that are very borderline, and it's it's it's

a fun debate. I threw out there on Twitter today and a bunch of people wrote back saying, that's why I love it. You know, the game's too easy for these guys. I want them to be and I'll give you Alan, I'll give you a three I'll give you a third hole. How about eighteen was slatoris and driver in a sandwich? You know that's a joke. I know it's I remember I remember um Robert Allen be hitting a forward in there to win a playoff back in the day in the nineties, Like that's not really raining,

and there was like nine it was a little chilly. Nevertheless, I mean I put out a tweet about ten that I don't have an opinion because I saw I saw so many articles, tweets, uh, long form deep dives. I was just like, I just like everybody to know I have no opinion about number ten. I don't know, it's fun. It's just all did you console with Jeff Ogilvie's mother And I just was like, hey, you know what, I don't care about number fourteen. At Detroit Country Club. You

know why, I just don't care about it. I just don't. That's totally valid. I mean, it's the ultimate first world problem that seventy eight articles about a fucking Paul Just can we just move on with it? A right? We can? Or make it too or make a nine and let's go to the eleventh hole. Okay, eleven is a great by the way. I mean, I love that, right, you're absolutely right, But it does speak to something larger about how, you know, we've got these ancient playing fields that are

a hundred years old or more. They're the most beloved courses we have. And to Michael's point about you know, flip wedges in the eighteen, I mean, as the game is always evolving, and of course, like ruviea is hemmed in, they can't they can't, they can't stretch it at all.

I mean, there's nowhere to go. And so it brings up these larger points about the equipment, about the U. S J Being asleep at the wheel, and it makes you know, it makes you wonder about the you know, the feutre like I mean, and Riviera is now this is even more relevant because it's gonna host the Olympics. Um, it's got a lot of big time. It's got the US Women's Open coming, like it's on a it's going to be a stage, like that's one of the elite

and the entire sport. And so if it's being compromised by all these different factors, it's it demands a little examination, to your point. So an interesting thing about Tenant Revere and I can't believe I'm gonna say this because I just said I don't care about it, and I'm why

I care about him. I don't care. But but one thing Scott Foss that for those that don't know decade, like he kind of changed the game, Like everybody used to lay up or a large majority of players used to lay up on that whole and then he did all the shot link thing, and it's like it plays a half a stroke easier if you go at the green,

and now everybody goes at the green. And now it might have changed this year, but like it's crazy what modern technology not only on the course but off the course, Like no one had access to every single shot and what that player made from that spot. And so Scott Foss said, is like, hey, here's the facts. Like, if you go at the green, you're going to make it half a stroke less over four days. Then if you

lay up, that's not you know, he's made effectual. So the technology that avancements are not just the club in the ball, it's access to those numbers that make the decision mathematical. That's a fantastic point. I mean, it also speaks to how hard that green is it Guys laying up to a sand wed, you know, full sing swing sand wed, like they can't even hold the green from eight yards or whatever. So it's it's an interesting debate that we don't have to continue any further, but it's

an an annual one. I think we should. I'd really like to hear more one. Just kidding, all right, we well, no disrespect to John rom but in some at least Thursday and Friday, i'd say the star of and possibly even Saturday when you played great, the star of the week was the host Tiger Woods. And you know, his his first time at a at a real tournament, uh in quite a while, and uh you know he grounded out. Unfortunately, he's over par on Sunday, which is continues his trend.

Where as the week goes on, he just he just loses vigor and and and it's more more of a struggle with his with his ankle and his his leg and his body. And so there was just enough flashes there where you know, it looks like Tiger Woods can still play golf. But for him to walk, you know, thirty miles across four days and all the preparation that needs to be tournaments sharp, you know that. I think

it's an open question. But Michael, you wrote a very insightful piece on fire Pit Collective dot com ahead of the tournament um and one of the takeaways was, you know, it's Tiger Woods. You can never underestimate him, so be careful, do so at your own peril. But what what did

you make of his performance? It had so much the performance more just looking at the man, where he is in his life and how much he still needs competitive golf in his life, because like Michael Jordan's and many others that we've seen over the years, it's really his defined his life. And uh, he he is a tremendous philanthropist. You know, I'm sure all of us have have read a lot of about what he's done, and he seems to be very devoted to his to his kids and

putting architecture, business and all the rest. But he's a competitive golfer. Forty seven is not old today if you haven't had all the setbacks to your body that the Tiger has had. So it's it's kind of actually heartbreaking to see how important it is to him, but it's also just part and parcel of the life of the athlete, in this particular athlete, I think it's it's. Uh, I don't see an easy path forward for him to be

really truthful about it. I don't. I don't know what really is going to bring deep meaning to his life because this is probably pretty much as good as he can play right now. I mean, after that deep thought, what do I do? What are you following that up with? But uh, it is I think it. I just wrote an article. I love Tiger for different reasons, and I'll take it from a different perspective, like he's just such

an icon in the game. The guy barely made the cut for most of the day Friday was outside the cut um and he is always the needle and whatever tour he's on he is going to is going to be the tour that people want to be on. And and no matter what, this, whether it's realistic or not, today gives everyone hope that in April he can win the Masters again and then we'll all be locked in and he changes the game. That's all there is to it. Like I tweeted jokingly, like I took a picture of

he was one below the cut line. It's like, hey, all, you guys are playing for a lot of money because of the guy there's one outside the cut line. Maybe it's time to make some bogies. But um on my article on fire Pit Collective dot com that will be out today tonight is I think he's just matured as a human being. And he's a flawed human being like us, but he's just an important part, so important part of the game. And his little interaction with Justin after the

first round and the way he does interviews. Now, I just think that he's grown up a lot, uh, and it's just fun to see him out there now. But you guys, you know, in some ways, I think I would agree with you, Ryan. I think he's growing up. We all we're all on our own path of maturation perspective, you know, life altering experiences, whether those be car accidents or someone close in your life dies, or something happens that rocks you to the core and makes you think differently.

We have again covering Tiger since I know Michael, We've all we've all been basically covering him in some way, shape or form. Um. I I there, there's Tiger the golfer, competitor. There's Tiger sort of the dad and man. There's Tiger the buddy and and and jokester. You know, there's Tiger

the businessman. There's is all kinds of layers to this guy. Um, for me, I've just continued, I've kind of I've stopped looking to Tiger as the guy, you know, who I want to idolize and marvel at in anything other than just the competitor. Tiger the competitor and what he's done for the game of golf and what he does for us when he's on camera trying to beat his his peers, what he's done to to create the John Rams and the Max Homas and the Justin Thomas is and cultivating

this engaging with this next generation. I'm I'm all for it. I think watching him over the course of the last four days at Riviera. Do what he did, Shoot what he shot, Hit it three and thirty five yards, you know, drive it by all these guys, swing speed. I'm like, okay, every time he tease it up, I'm with Tiger. I think he can potentially win win a golf to him, Ben Crendaw had no business winning the Masters the second time. He had no game. Nothing was going to say that

he was capable of doing that. He caught magic, Harvey Peenix, Funeral came in Boom won the Masters. Jack Nicholas had no business winning the eighties six Master. He was done. He came back in one one another major champion, you know, Darren Clark done one an Open. Cheff Adam Scott was done. He was flawed. He can't win wins a major. Che like Justin Rose at the age of thirty two wins the US Open like he was gone again. I keep saying, if they all can do it, then why can't Tiger.

You know Tom Watson at the age of fifty nine almost won an Open championship. So if Tom Watson can do it at the age of fifty nine, you don't think Tiger Woods can't. Of course he can. If he can hit it three thirty and be Tiger Woods and finished four rounds like he just did at a very hard walking golf course, then you know I'm here to watch him go on and win another PGA Tour event and or majors or do whatever he wants to do

in the game of golf. If I'm looking to Tiger Woods to be a role model for me as a man, or for my kids to role model him as like how he conducts himself off the course, or if he happens to get caught sliding a tan packs to Justin Thomas in a very private sort of jovial uh, you know, buddy to buddy, little side joke that obviously he orchestrated well before you know, walking off that t he knew he was going to drive it by these guys, and he set that up in which he was gonna and

it happened to get caught by a camera that zoomed in and realized, oh, he was passing him a tampon. It's like, did did it surprise anybody on this podcast that Tiger Woods is like a sense of humor is always been like the least impressive thing about Tiger Woods. He has been laughed at by people his whole life, regardless of whether the jokes are funny or not. He's not you know, he can say something funny. We all can. He's just not a comedian. He's not who I'm looking

to like. He is the most awkward guy I've ever one of the most awkward people I've ever been around. But I'm marveled at his competitive nature, is dog and approach to trying to be the greatest of all time. I marveled at his two wins in fifteen majors. But when he does ship like that, it's like, yeah, that's Tiger. Uh yeah, you know, I'm you know, well, I mean, we don't have to debate the merits of whether or

not it was a funny joke. Um, but it is revealing and certainly there there's been a lot of discussion about it, and the comment is amused me the most on Twitter is it it was just a private joke between two guys. It's like Tiger, more than anybody knows that every single thing he does or says is always going to be looked at through a magnifying glass. Believe he's in the middle of a tournament and he no matter how SMOOTHI is. People are gonna see something some handoff.

The whole point is to get a reaction from justin someone's gonna catch it. They zooming on everything. I mean, remember his his his chip two years ago. He tried to hide that under the scarf, like he should know more than anyone that it's going to get found out. And as you say, man, it was clearly like you know, how long is he carrying in his pocket for holes? Like what if it fallen out and he's going to

mark a putt? Like the whole thing is just like so ridiculous and sophomoric and um, but it is revealing of who Tiger really is. And we've known it all along. Go back to g Q at the beginning. Why he stopped hating the press started hating the press in the beginning. He's just he's got like this odd sense of humor. Yeah, yeah, it's basically it's one of things that happens when you become famous. Is I think your development basically stops when

you become famous. Whatever age that is. So for Tiger it was definitely twenty, but possibly sixteen or seventeen, Like he's never really matured beyond that, and there's little glimpses of it in opportune times, like what just happened. And you know, we're not gonna pretend it was an international crisis, but it was just kind of dumb and it it definitely be smirched. It was otherwise an impressive performance. But I will say I don't fully agree with what you said, Matt.

Like all those guys you cited who who pulled off unlikely major championship victories, their bodies were sound now, their golf games could come and go um, and they had things going on their lives, whether it's Jack facing the bankruptcy or Ben crunch I was losing his his his instructor. But Tiger, can he wake up four days in a row after three or four or seven or eight days

of preparation? Can you wake up four days in a row at a major championship where his body feels good and he's able to make the swings he wants and he's not exhausted by the last five holes, And like, look at Ben Hogan, I mean, majors, did you went after the car crash? That that is the precedent. But it's like, I mean, there's clearly still some magic and

Tiger's hand some of those shots he hit. He remains a great tactician, and a lot of these these majors become more like chess than anything else, so you can

never count them out. But you know, if you just if you look at at his results in all these events since has come back, he just gets generally worse as the week goes on and Sundays when he's really struggling, and um, so maybe that can change, but it doesn't feel like what's going on in his body can initially be rehabbed in a gym, right It's not like I don't think he can make his ankle stronger, or he would have by now. He's had a lot of time, right Like, it feels like he's probably as good as

he can be physically right now. I don't know how he gets twenty or or sixty year eight percent better, which is what what he probably needs. So obviously I'm not I'm not a physical trainer. I just play one on the internet. But um, it's hard to imagine Tiger is gonna get any better physically, and he can only get worse. So whether he's got four days in a row of really clean golf, which is what's gonna take

to beat John rom right now. I mean also eight thousand yards on at Augusta National when you count it all in, I mean, look at how optimized rom is and Max Homa and camp Smith he'll be at the Majors and Ry McIlroy. Tiger has to be all those guys. They're not all to have a bad week at the same time, Like he's just given up so much. Um So I just want to clip this. I just want to clip this Jake, Clip this Jake, and he's this is going to be the lead on the Sunday Night

Masters when I slipping on the green jacket. I've been wrong before. None of what you're going to say now is going to be it part of the clip that we show. So it's too late, so you've already you've already said it. We're not gonna add like but but but you know, no but but nothing like everyone's gonna destroy you guys when we just take that minute and to half like he impossible, no way, he can't do it, And it's just like, oh, Tiger's putting another green jacket.

I didn't say it's impossible. I didn't say he can't do it again. And none of what you're about to say it's gonna help the clip. This this golf course has always been his nemesis. I think just if you look at his ability, his swing speed, is ability to move the golf ball, and given his competitive nature and his hands and his ability to get the ball in the hole and what he does, you know under pressure,

I mean eight two and fifteen. Add up all the guys, will you just talk about list them, go through all their You can't add up their credentials to get to eighty two and fifteen. If Tiger could take a golf cart in the Major's, I would say he's much more dangerous. He has to walk thirty miles in four days. He can't get from the parking lot for the first team without a major pimp swag because he's just he can't.

He's got a huge limp. Like do you guys follow the Twitter account old takes exposed of course for moments just like this right here, that clip is going to go viral of like's if he couldn't took a card, or he can't do it, or he can't walk there, and then they'll like it. It'll just be like, oh, here's Alan and Matt talking about how Tiger alright to be wrong. Michael, what are your thoughts if well, now you've you've started, You've started eighty two and fifteen a

number of times. Those are iconic, iconic numbers. Can you imagine if he can get to eighty three and sixteen. If he gets eighty three and sixteen, then of course he's got snead. But then I think the math is going to change and people are going to go back to the eighties six math, which was oh, Jack nikl was just one of his twenty major and I'm by that math, Tiger will be up to right help me out rrect he would, He's still behind Jack. But one, okay, the races on the race has been on for a

quarter century. I mean, listen, it would be spectacular. I was on the grounds of nineteen Augusta and it was epic, and I never thought that would happen. And I said that ahead of that for years, Like I think I said, at some point, you know, after all the surgeries and the chip yips and shooting eighty five the memorial, and you know that humongous gouge you made on the first tea box at St. Andrew's and all that. I mean, as iftographers can come back and win any tournament, even

the Bob Hope. It'll be one of the greatest accomplishens of his career. And not only he won that, he won the Tour Championship, he won the freaking Masters. Like, I've been wrong before, and that's why I've never definitive, like you're trying to make it out to be Ryan, I always leave a little wiggle room again, Yeah, but they can edit out that wiggle room all and you still get buried. We're not running any of this. The clip that we're going to take out is very definitive.

I would. People being people, they they'll say things like, oh, does old Ship Nuck know that's not called the Bob Hope anymore. I think he knows, but he'll still make it out to think like still, Michael, I would. I'd be curious just to get your thoughts, given your place in the game and your perspective. But Tiger the man and evolution and the the you know, the the odd sense of humor and the incident with Justin Thomas and what what what what's your what are your thoughts on

all that. You know, the overall statement on Tiger will always be what it was from the beginning, from the most unlikely background, with a mother who's an immigrant, a father who faced so much racism as a kid, who grew up playing not country clup golf but military golf, who came at the game with a completely different perspective and dominated like nobody has ever dominated any sport ever. Really secretary would probably be the only thing that comes

to mind. So he Kelly Slater, Okay, that's interesting. Um, not knowledge to to know that, but I'll take your word for that. But I think he'll go down in history that all that other stuff will just sort of fall by the wayside, and we'll think of him as we think of you know, the great boxer years of of yesteryear, as just a completely dominant athlete for whom the mindset was everything. And you take all the talent in the world and then have the mindset of um,

I will not accept defeat. And we are definitely including this week seeing it still to this day he nearly killed himself in that car crash. That car crash is completely inexplicable, and we don't need to get into it because we've we've done it before. And to come back and just to be able to play four rounds of golf and beat a lot of people, beat everybody who didn't make the cut, and then beat you know, twenty or so other players. I don't know the exact number.

Is a remarkable statement to the broad thing of what we're saying. There is no quit in this person's mentality, and uh, he separated himself from the crowd forever on that basis alone. You don't, Michael, you don't think that all the off the core stuff is going to be part of how tires thought of. Because it's certainly it's it's l evaded Jack Nicholas in that he was such a classy champion and he was such a gracious loser

and tigers both of those things too. But when you know the the totality of why Nicholas has been so revered for so long, it was just the way he he lived his life with with Barbara and the kids and all this and that, and um, you know, for better and for worse, it becomes part of how athletes

are remembered. And you don't think that's gonna be I mean, because when I watched Tiger now I feel a deep pang of melancholy because he's just destroyed his body in so many different ways, and it's been mostly willful and and like it's the ultimate what if in in Gulf is would take away the sex scandal? How many how

many majors does does Tiger have? I mean that sent that derailed his career in a profound way, and whatever he was searching for in the kill house with the green berets when he hurt his knee, and you know, possible he busted as Achilles and all these things like this all has played got him to where he is now. And you know the car accident, uh, you know, as he always said, it's in the police report, it isn't the police report. I mean that pedal was held down

a force throughout the whole thing. That's you can't say he fell asleep or he was just he was just texting like something really dark cap in there. And you know he's just his It's a monumental career even without without all that others. But to me, it's the ultimate what if. And um, so you know he's he's a year older what than Jack was when he won the Masters, But like Jack and Arnie, they were hailing hardy into

their sixties and seventies. I mean, they could still swing the club, and they could still they could still walk golf courses and in competitive golf was part of their life still, and that Tigers taken that away from himself in a large part. I mean, so, I don't know. I I agree that the Tiger's the most dominant golf has ever lived, despite everything, but I do think that everything is part of his legacy. Alan It's fascinating to

hear you all say all that. You remind me of somebody I know very well, me because that's exactly how I feel about everything. But I've got a big accept and the big accept is this, It's the power of the Nike argument. Winning takes care of everything. I think, all those things that are so important to the four of us, all those subtle things. How how big Jack handled all those nineteen runner up finishes and the majors. We saw the arm go around uh Watson at Turnberry

and literally hundreds of other things. You know, how he handled the President's Cup in South Africa and the thing with Jacqueline and give him the put at the Ryder Cup. Literally a hundred plus things over the years, and Tiger doesn't have that. But we live in a culture now where it's all about how do you make the money, how do you win? Not how do you win studio

win the tournaments. Uh he's got the eight three in the sixteen whatever turns out to be in the end, and uh no, And if we're really talking about legacy, if that's what this conversation is now about, No, I don't think all those other things that are so meaningful to the four of us, I don't think, broadly speaking, I don't. I don't think they'll they'll matter. Just just one quick additional thought to that. I was stunned, Not stunned,

that really wouldn't be the right word. But I was interested to hear Tigers referred to Arnold as quote my hero. And I knew that he admired Arnold greatly, and there's a lot to admire about Arnold. But these two guys couldn't be more different. But when he said that, it

tells me. I think it tells me that he wishes he had what Arnold had, which is natural warmth, natural desire to be around people, and just really, at the end of the day, an immense comfort with himself, enjoy from being the person that he is, where I don't think Tiger sadly has that. I'll take it from one different angle that one of the people in this conversation that we're talking about outside of Tiger was a famous

womanizer too. It's a different time, right, like the correct and the social media and TMZ and all of those things changed golf, Like I mean, ja can cut it out or whatever. I mean, I don't know. It was a famous womanizer. We all know that, Like, like he had people, but like it's a different time, right, Like no one ever took pictures of anyone else where. It is, so I think I'm not an article. I mean, my deeper thoughts are in an article. It'll be out today.

But like his transgressions are indefensible. Uh, but it's a different time, like we didn't we didn't, we didn't live in a world where every movement of every famous person was put on social media. I totally agree with you know, part of me thinks that that's you know, why Tiger wishes he could be our you know, could be Arnold Palmer, could could do do whatever he was doing. The womanizing and the drug addictions and the you know, getting pulled

over and not even knowing what state he's in. I mean, the car accidents. The Again, he's a flawed individual, and so is Phil and you know, in many ways, so was Arnold Palmer and you know Jack Nicholas. I mean, everybody has their their stuff. But you know, Ray Lewis is on ESPN being lauded as like one of the great like you know, George Foreman was a flawed individual and reinvented himself. You know Tom Weiskoff, we talked about

him last week. You know, he belt with dealt with alcohol addiction and and had had you know, had a horrible reputation as a pro and reinvented himself, became an incredible analyst, incredible architect, and shared openly about like all the evolution he's got. Like at the end of the day, they're people. These guys are are actually human beings. They're going through their stuff. They were the products of their environment.

You know, Tiger it Is as a teen, was predicted to like have more of an impact, or just as much of an impact as Gandhi. Like what is that? Like where does like what is all of that? You know, so, yeah,

he's he's flawed, he's got issues. I've just compartmentalized him and looked to him and marvel at him as strictly like this competitor, you know, and when the gun goes off, the guy is one of the toughest guys to beat, regardless of the situation, and marvel at his his abilities under pressure, his accomplishments inside the ropes, outside the ropes. I don't, I don't. You know, he is it is what he is. It's just he's an athlete. He is not.

He's not God's gift to like mankind beyond if you really love and appreciate the game of golf, I just I don't. I don't try to make him something he's not. I mean, that's all well said, Matt. But part part of why we care about athletes is because they are humans and we get invested in their lives. I mean, why was to use your example, like, why was the crunch Ob victory so emotional? It's because it's because of

what was happening away from the golf course. You know that the hug between Philip Amy and two thousand ten because she had cancer. You know, when he wins the masters for her, Like it's it's what's it's the it's the humanity that draws us to them. Otherwise they're just you know, everyone's sit in the same seven iron Who cares that? I mean, okay, I'm gonna pop my article again, but like, that's that is why I love Tiger is he's flawed. I'm not defending any of those things, none

of them. I they're in defense of like, none of them. But we're all, like I mean the opening articles, sit and think about the worst mistake you've ever made in your life and have it played out I'm in public persona and be lauded from the age of two literally as the greatest thing to mankind, and not grow up with some sort of ego where you think that you can get away with the things that Tigers thinks he can get away with. Still the only three years ago he was busted for for you know, d y or

under the influence. Um. I just uh, he's a flawed human saw. We're all flawed, and he's amongst it. And maybe he's more flawed than all of us. Uh, But he has seemed to mature a little bit, seems to be a good father. He gets along with Ellen, which is or it seems to they Obviously we're not privy to private conversation is but the fact that they share custody and not have a public fighting court all the time speaks to at least a little bit of uh

maturing on his part. So I see where you guys are going from and taking from a different angle, and that's great. I mean, that's I love that. And you know, I have a lot of empathy for Tiger like he's he's been through a lot. And I'm if I sound like I'm judging in that, that's not it at all.

I'm just looking at in the context of to me, when I see his career and what could be, it's hard not to feel a pain because it's you totally agree with that too, But I mean, the the only the only word that made would be better than career for me in that sense sound would be his life. I mean, how can you look at Tiger Woods his

life and not being pain for him? And you know, millions and millions of people would have traded place with Arnold Palmer in a New York minute, But I don't know that millions of people would trade to place with Tiger Woods. I don't think Rory McElroy would trade places of Tiger Woods. No, definitely, not um Or. I'm not sure even a guy like Max Holm has never win a major with Jane, would trade places with him. But I'll be curious. No, you're you've You've done a lot

of reporting this here. Uh. One are the things that separates live golf from the PGA Tours? Of course, the size of the field. Tiger has such a big voice in the tour, and what will happen to these elevated events a year from now when there's a reconfiguration. What these elevated events are? What do you think this if Tiger could have his stamp on it, What do you think the size of the field would be for for

the l A tournament. I want to say seventy It may get Do you think that's what Tiger would want? Only seventy? Or came out and said that's what he wants. Yeah, Rory said that's what Tiger wants. You know that he that's what he wants. I mean, honestly, Rory has more juice and Tiger now because he's the guy who's talking to players every week and he's on the board of directors, and um, you know Tiger is, he's Tiger, but he's not really playing a lot of PJ Tour events anymore.

So uh. And also, I mean, Tiger more than anybody else, believes in a meritocracy. And so I think he would say listen, if you want to, if you want to be in the field, play better. I think he would be the ultimate play better guy. And um, you can always play your way into the field, but you gotta make more birdies. So, um, it could, but there is there's a vicious debate going on among the players, and it could that could get bumped up to eighty or ninety. Um,

I mean, but even a hundred of streats. So I I think seven eighty or ninety no cutter with a cut. Well, when you get to that many people, you'd have to have a cut. You know, seventy there's there's probably just enough. Uh you know what players from seventy, what's that cut? Twenty players from seventy. No, seventy would be no cut. Seveny would be no cut. If you get a hundred, you gonna have to have a cut. But um, so no I think this I think you know now Keith

Mitchell didn't play well. He swings beautifully. I like to watch him and swing, But to me, with Kevin Keith Mitchell in the mix makes the tournament more interesting. Yeah, Kashmir Keith, he's fun to watch, I mean, but he's um, he's a guy who's who's upwardly mobile in his career. And you know it's if you're in the top seventy, you're stoked because then you know you're gonna show up these tournaments a dozen times a year or whatever, and

you're gonna you're gonna make a check. You're gonna make a fat check. You don't have to worry out making the cut. And that's what these guys want. They want to get paid. I mean they're pretty open about it. So um, but anyway that that'll get announced, I believe there's a there's a big player meeting at bay Hill and I think, um, that's where it's gonna get unveiled and it's gonna go public. So we'll we're not gonna have to wait too much longer to to get the

resolution to this. But before we go, I think we should just tip our caps to Bernhard Longer, who won again today on the Senior Tour tied the all time record for wins with guy named Hill or in um. And you know, Michael, you're probably the world's foremost expert on Bernhard Longer. You've written a ton about him, and uh,

like I was, I was like at the gym. I mean, I don't really follow the Senior to I don't know who falls it super closely, And all of a sudden it's like Bernard Longer gonna win this terment, Like, are you kidding me? I mean it's the guy eighty yet it's just unbelievable. Okay, I have a question. I have a question before Michael answers better odds to win the Masters, Bernhard Longer or Tiger Woods. Bernhard Linger has absolutely zero chance. Tiger has north of zero, so that that's not a question.

It's a question, but it's not if they play the Masters for the members tease, I would say Bertie Longer all the way. But at yards, I mean Tiger can still move it. Now, you know, power is a big thing there, so Um, the answer to you, the question has to be Tiger, but it's it's not. I mean, Bernie can't hit it three thirty yards. It's just not you got it? You would that be great if they if they said, you know what, we're gonna We're gonna

do something a little different this year. We're gonna play it from from the members tease, and we're gonna bake the greens out. We're gonna put the pins in crazy places. And like I would be all in on that. Freddy Reddy wins by Freddie. We have Freddie wins out, Like I think you're absolutely right about that. Uh. One of

the great moments from Jero thousand nineteen now. And you and I talked about this when after Tiger one and ro Hug bro Hug bro Hug and you know, with Zack Johnson and Boba and various others who are hanging around, and there's Bernhard at the end of the receiving line and just a man full of regular conventional handshake from Tiger Woods to Bernhard Langer really spoke of Tiger's respect

for Langer. Uh. Head language effect for Tigers. I've spoken about about about the able, but again, I mean, and I've talked Bernard a lot, and I've i've you know, I bumped into him from time to time crossing paths, you know, Here's what. Here's what Longer does. He outworks his competition. He is on the right, He is a machine. He is honing his game. John rom same thing, Max Homa. You know, a couple of years ago said I'm done with podcast. I'm gonna focus. I'm gonna try to work

be the best I can possibly be. You know, there is something to be said for people who work really hard who also have talent and experience. I mean, that is how Hail Irwin got to where he got. That's why Longer has gotten to where he's got. That's where

Jack got to where he's got. Tiger is back to where he is today, being able to walk, make a cut, play four rounds, shoot four or five under like because he's working at He's physically dedicating himself to getting to a place where he can hit it yards off to tea and compete against the guys he wants to compete with. I mean, they're oh by the way, work matters look at Longer. Longer doesn't just rock up and try to beat his competition. He outworks them, and that's why he's

had the career he's had. His physic actually looks almost identical to what it does and what it didn't met made. But yeah, but what's amazing is he saws the need and the desire to keep working like that into his late sixties. Like that's what's incredible. It's incredible. But it is, it's there, it lives in him. That's what he is. It defines him. He's a golfer. He's dedicated to his craft. He wants it, like you know, that's what's in him. He's a golfer. Yeah, Carlos Franco is a golfer too.

I mean, but he didn't try very hard, but like you know, he probably had more talent than Bernhard longer. But it's just like it's incredible, you know. I hope that when I'm Bernie's age, like I'm grinded like that. I have a Twitter follower who is so hung up on on Bernhard Anchoring and and sends me pictures weekly of Bernhard and finally I just replied to him today. Usually ignore when I just replied us like it's the Champions Tour man. No one, no one is this mad

about about Bernhard uh Anchoring, but his career Ryan. I actually have heard I have heard other players who are plenty mad. But when you look at a really closely, it's like, Oh, it's the blouse sweater that's making contact. It's such a bad rule. They should have never allowed in the first place. They should have kept putters for thirty six inches or something. But as the Great Man says, it is what it is. I do have a fantasy, Matt, like to hear your opinion on this and everybody else's

because everyone else to hurt me on this. I have this fantasy that Tiger will turn the three senior majors into a thing nobody's ever won. I don't think Garrett Playerber did the British British Senior British US Senior Open in the Senior p J Championship in the same year. It would be me healthy Ish Ish Tiger at fifth would say, I'm going after it. Uh. Do you think if that happened, man, do you think it could turn into a thing that people would care about if this

one particular golfer, Tiger woodskid it. Of course, any Tiger anything. He made the PNC Father and Son a thing. It's like he can turn anything into a thing. He's about to turn simulator golf into a thing. He's doing it right under the nose of everybody who's boxing at live doing a breakaway tour. He and Rory have their own breakaway tour. It's happening right as we speak, signing players, making a team concept, creating you know, a more you know,

a more livelier venture of the game of golf. Whatever Tiger does that involves a golf club and a golf ball. In some sense, it's just scoring is a thing. It's official. Well, so well match whatever, rinse and repeat. Well it was, you know, not not to get too in the weeds on the future of the senior majors. But theoretically Phil could play those two You's band from the Senior Tour, right, It's like, because they're they're in the same the same

little gray area as is everything else. So how about Phil and Tiger going at it head to head for the US Senior Open, Like that would be epics. So you're saying from the from the Senior he's not they're they're not. You know, those tournaments are not under the hammer of the PGA Tour. Yeah, I mean that that could be. You know, that's delicious to think about, And

it goes to what I said forty minutes ago. I mean, tiger in a golf cart is dangerous and um, of course they don't really use them in the majors, do they. I don't even watch the Senior Tour enough to know. I know they don't do it for the US Senior U their four rounds welcome. Yeah, if the Champions Tour had gone back to forty four years old, a long time ago, would would we be? It would would live exist?

Like if if if, if these guys had the option of being able to extend their careers, the Paul Cases and the Graham mcdowells, and the you know, Ian Poulter's and all these guys that are going to march towards their you know, there that mid level zone in which they are struggling to compete against the twenty somethings, but they're not old enough to compete against the fifties somethings.

Like why isn't the Champions Tour young? Why doesn't Why doesn't the Champions Tour get down and start competing in all of this by creating a scenario in which people have the choice of playing both tours or playing one or not the other, that's why not? Why not let these names that are in these tweener phases of their career have an outlet for competitive golf. Right, But now, I would say, Matt, I think twenty years ago, forty

four look like a better number. Now, with guys staying as fit as they are, I think the probably is a good number. But but okay, then what then? Then? What happened with all the guys that are now gone to live that couldn't compete, you know, compete against the PGA Tour. You say that It's sort of true, yes, from a technology, but the younger guys benefit from that same technology that the forties sums that they're benefiting from

as well. And it's all relative, so is it? Can they still compete with a bad back or a bad you know, Lee West? The names go on and on and on. This was their Outlive was an outlet in which they can keep making money playing quote competitive golf. You guys want to hear a shocker, And I think Alan knows this. The first live events in cheus, No, it's in Mexico. The second one in the United States and chews. I think, of course that nobody wants to

like nobody don't care about that. If we're more invested in the actual competition on Lived, someone would do a deep dive on the tournament venues because they're not a plus and um. But there's certainly gonna be more articles about the tenthile reviewer than about the Live schedule. But uh, you know, yeah that that that course is no no bueno, the one they're going to in Tulsa, when you're like the fourth best course in Tulsa, that's a problem. The

one in Orlando, you would know that one. Matt um Alan, can you just summarize for us to the San Francisco federal ruling and if it's meaningful and what it means? Oh god, yeah, man, we're touching them all on this podcast, so it is meaningful. The um in in this big antitrust suit between the you know, Live is sued the

PGA tour Um. They're now in the deposition phase and the the guy who runs a public investment fund, his excellency Yassir all ramayan Um, who's very involved in all the negotiations and I've heard, you know when when he's part he's a big part of Live Golf. There's no question he's been involved in the contracts and a lot of the decision making. No one disputes that. Um, so the PJ for player lawyers want to depose him and

the Rumayan he his excellency. He's known as h E among live players, or they called the investor, which I like, it's kind of he's the investor. He's claimed diplomatic community because he's the holder of many state secrets. I mean, he's one of he's probably the number two guy in all of Saudi Arabi. He's always been close to MBS and this guy runs you know, the PIFF and he's also the chairman of a Ramco, which is the most profitable company in the world. Like this is this guy's

he's the man. He but he claimed of back community and the judge based said no, sorry, you're um. If you're disinvolved in in in the day to day dealings

of of live golf, you can be deposed. So now that that puts, you can imagine this is like alarm bell are going off in the palaces around Saudi Araby because the last thing they want is for him to be deposed under oath, and it introduces the possibility that Live could just withdraw the suit like that never mind it's not worth it, or they could they could refile it in a much more limited way. But this is

kind of the worst case scenario for live learning. Now I'm gonna have to make a hard choice on how do you compel a non US citizen to uh to stand under a questioning of an American lawyer in American court systimes at work? Well, the I mean, I'm not a lawyer. I just played one on the internet. But you know that the court the cases has been live golf filed the case in in in California in the

United States. They chose the venue. They didn't they didn't they didn't do this in in in London or anywhere else like you know, they chose, they set the rules of engagement. Therefore the court has jurisdiction. And um, you know, if if if remind doesn't give into you know, I don't know what happens if you just flat out refuses to do it, does the whole thing just fold? You know? Um, but it it's just it's not a great scenario for a live golf and so, um, how they handle this

will be interesting to see. Doesn't mean that, you know, maybe he will ultimately be deposed and um, there'll be some limits placed on what canon camp, he asked. But of course the tour lawyers are gonna try to make it as uncomfortable and controversial as possible. And and uh that's why this is also much fun. All right, This has been another Fire Drill podcast for Matchinella and Michael Bamberger and Ryan French. I'm Alan chip Nick. Thank you's

always for listening. We'll do this again next week. I will actually be calling in from Mexico. I'm going to be at the live event in my Acoba. Greg Norman design. Um. First event of the year should be juicy, should be fun. There'll be lots to talk about, um, but until then, we appreciate your fidelity. And uh that's the end. I bet big and I played to win, made a fortune, win my ship game. Man. I ran the table, never thought I could fall down. The wintertime hit me like

a cannon. The ball and now I can't shake this, losing the streak. Every road I take is a dead end stream. I got thoughts in my head, can't get aloud, trying not to think what I'm thinking about. I gotta dancing my head. I can't get him out and trying not to think what I'm thinking about,