Fire Drill 053: Shark, Tiger and Pavin (Oh My!)

covers uh Putter covers awesome, awesome stuff. Uh, So go check both of them out. They are the reason that we are able to do this great stuff. So on this week's episode of The Fire Drill, we somehow have talked about all of the following things. Corey Paven and his v as Cleveland Irons purple, ugly, hideous, it looks like levels. Uh. Michael has a great story about Allen has a great story about being on the range with him. Uh. We talked about Greg Dorman. We talked about the comparison

to Tiger Woods. Uh. We talked about that they didn't get along very well, the pit ranking itself and how ridiculous it all is, Uh, cam Smith winning again in his place, and how the o w g R. He's probably going to have to change because cam Smith keeps winning everywhere and uh, if he slips down, it'll kind of make a mockery of the o w g R. We talked about Shano hair, which I love, and we guessed his age and how many how much career earnings

he has? You don't probably know. Both they're both ridiculous, Uh, I mean it was great, Thanks for listening, Thanks for being. I hope everybody's holiday weekend. We also talked about how turkey sucks and turkey sucks. Uh, here's the three of us talking golf. I got nothing I'm thinking about. Can't get them not to think, well, I'm thinking about Hello boy, it's happy Thanksgiving? What's up man? How was everybody good? Good? Michael? How are you a little salmon out at this point?

You know how it is in the barmburger house? Yeah? Respect, I mean, we don't have to turn this into a this whole podcast into a repudiation of traditional Thanksgiving foods. But does anyone really love turkey? I mean it's just a delivery system for other things. I mean, yeah, and tell me the last time anyone you know or yourself has ordered turkey at a restaurant. All of us eat out a hundred times of years, and we never go you know, what do you? Is turkey on special today?

Like no one has ever said that. Didn't say it's very true, but it is. It is a delightful holiday. And uh, but the fire drill never sleeps. We're here to talk about what's happening in a golf such as it is. Still play the Skins Game, Allen. You know, I would say one of the top five stories I ever wrote in my entire life was the Skins Game.

In ninety five, I was I've done my internship at s I and then I was I was back at U c L as an undergraduate but still writing for the magazine, and our beloved editor James P. Harry it's like, I hate the Skins Game, Go go rip the Skins Game. I was like, okay, and uh it was so over the top and like I read it now and I blush, But of course it was grounded in truth. The whole

thing was a total turkey. But I mean, really it was like, listen to this lineup, Tom Watson, great golfer, but low one Pizzas, Corey paven Um, Peter j Peter Jacobson, who I like Jake, but you know he was a little past the sell by date. And I can't remember who the fourth one was, but it was that was part of the thing. I mean, started out with Nicholas and Paul or in Trevino and now you got Corey paven I mean it was anyway, So I have I have fond memories of the Skins game because everyone was

so mad about that story. Like Jacobson rode my ask for years after that because I remember saying like his pattern was as canned as a as a talk show monologue. And every time you see he's like, oh I'm a talk show host. Is that what you think about me? Like for years, for years, See, this is the fire drill. This is what the fire drill is all about. Stories

like Peter Jacobson. Well you'll appreciate this right, quick quick note on Corey pavin As you know, as you both know, he used the bulls eye putter for years and and part of my uh working through the yips, I went to a bulls eye because you could go left, you and righty, So I saw him one year and I said, Cray, I'm just curious those bulls eye putters do they have loft on both sides of the face, because as we

all know, putters are not vertical. They have they have a slight degrader of love to him, and uh uh and and and Corey Paven says, uh, let me guess you're going on the long ones and Lefty on the short ones. I'm like, how could you possibly know? He said, We've seen everything. That's awesome. Yeah, Well, Corey Paven one of the few people on the plant who has had both of bar Mitzvah and a baptism. So shout out, shout out, shout out to Corey. It's the holiday season.

He's very inclusive. Did he why is that? Did he marry into his wife is Jewish? No, he was Jewie. He grew up Jewish and then and then he went he gave his life to Christ and so but he saved a little bit for golf. But quick, quick note on that one. When you're at at Hilton Head the week after the Master's Easter Sunday and pass Over Sunday fell on the same Sunday. And I said to Corey, are you accepting duel holiday? Uh? You know, greetings? He

said absolutely. He was very good natured about it. Actually. So I did a big feature story on Corey Paven again in that that little sort of that we in between when I finished mentorship and before I started full time at s I, and it was it was this. It was the winter of ninety four and it was before he won at Shinnecock And that was like the whole thing of the story. Best player without a major can you can Corey do it? The gritty gutty brew And you know, we shared U c l A roots.

He didn't have a suite, you said, U c l A license room on his black portion, which I appreciated as a fellow brewin. And and so we went out fishing, like because you know, when you do these future stories, you gotta do something. And I'm not much a fisherman.

I don't think Corey is either. So he's he's casting his line and this is a lake and wherever he lived in Orlando, and this fucking alligator like snapped it whatever the lure was, and he hooked a little like baby alligator and he's like, oh my god, this is terrible. You can't catch alligator. This is like, this is a violation of state law. So like, well, what are we

supposed to do? Like so he's like trying to gently reel the gator in, Like I was thinking, Okay, if he gets this thing on the boat, he's got million dollar hands. He's not the one who's gonna pull the lure out of this. The skaters Allen Simney gets major champions fingers bitten off while fishing for story. Yeah, they start calling me seven finger Joe or whatever. But does anyone associated with irons quite like Corey Paven and those horrendous v A s irons that he used. I mean,

no one looks like random golfers. I mean, and I know Corey is not totally random, but I'm saying, like, outside of the greats, no one is associated with a set of irons more than Corey Paven and those Cleveland irons. Yeah, maybe Calcavecchio with the ping Eye two. But um yeah, So he was playing them at that moment in time, in like winter of and so we went to the range and he's hitting balls with them and then shot

tied to the end of a shaft. I know, I was like, I'm just I'm just beating around the bus, Like Corey, you know, how do you think these irons have changed your game? And Corey, do you have any you know, any second thoughts about and uh, Corey, but you know, is there anything that the technology doesn't help you work the ball? Like he's like he's like, he's like, just go ahead and ask it. Just ask it. I said, Okay, were those irons a mistake or what? And like were

those things? Well, Alan, did you write about him before or after the US Open win? Before? So I think the story came out in maybe February of ninety five and he won that US Open. Later, what did he what do you win with that U s Open with? Well, that's a good question. I mean I remember it's still be being they'd still be being made if they was with those Yeah, I think he must have switched him out,

but he still had him. When I was hanging out with him in Orlando around the Underweighted club that V A S A S. And it was like it had a little it was like the shaft wasn't at the end of the club head it was there were shovels basically shovels and they had purple backs. It was insane. They were sick. I mean, don't don't make a Patrick

Read joke, because he still could be trigger happy. First of more, I think we can all agree that when in a bunker to a robriate to shovel out the sand behind your ball, there's the We would never just spares Patrick Read, especially at an exhibition to match, an exhibition tournament like the year World Challenge that giving out Cocus World ranking points. And did Corey Paven did he captain that Ryder Cup team that when we played that year we played that really good golf course in Wales.

Was that Royal fourth call which you never remember fourth called let me tell you something that was by far the most memorable part of that week, such an unmemorable rug. Well, I didn't anticipate this fire drill would devolve into Corey Paven content, but um, yes, that was That was an ethic ryder Cup because remember the captain as his wife was wrapped naked, wrapped in a flag on the carver.

This magazine in the British pressman crazy with that. And then yeah, and then there was this cock up with the rain gear and the leaky and the freaking the You know it flooded out the golf course. You're in Wales, you can anticipate it's going to raid. Why did they pick a golf course at the bottom of a valley? And it was just like an absolute cloud show from start to finish. And of course when you had one of the best golf courses in the world down the street. Yeah,

way better than the host venue. Yes, and go ahead and red uh. Jake might have to cut this out, but well we'll deem it. Marty Carr from the u T I told me that was joking and it has to do with whales. H A guy walks into a bar in the UK. Oh, Jake's coming in. That's never a good sign. So I'm not sure if this being the podcast or not. But while we were um, while we were talking, Michael was doing an internet search. We could we could hear it in the background and so

our producer and Jake Muldowney scolded him. It reminds me I just started watching this show last night. Have you heard of Fleischman is in trouble? No? I think the protagonist might be Jewish. Yeah, just to keep just to keep the theme going here, it's the Holidays. It's the Holidays and um, oh my god, it is a plus. It's based in a book that I loved, and it is so funny. It's basically like it's on Hulu. Uh, it's the kid who was in Social Network, which sidebar.

I think we're the best movies a century and Claire Dayes is in it, and Michael, you'll appreciate this. Uh. It's like basically a modern telling of Portnoise Complaint and it is laugh out loud funny. So that's just a little for those of you who are looking to Um, it's just started. I think there only three episodes into the first season. It is a plan but not viewing.

Can we talk about finally, golf? I've told the show needs to be about golf, and here we are not talking about golf except for via signs, which are great. They ranked player which is ridiculous and I'm ronic one again in Australia and wait, is Cam down? Yeah? I think I think, so I haven't. I haven't looked. That's an absolute first. So I was actually gonna bring this up. Yeah, So Cam Smith won the Australian p g A and m we know that various tainted player of the Year

awards go out number three. Yeah, what the hell, Ryan, I mean he will he will keep dropping inexorably. But no, he's yeah, he's still love that. But um, I was gonna, I was gonna ask this question. Who is the player of the year in golf? You have Rory who won the FedEx Cup and the Race to Dubai and various other tournaments that played at an exceptionally high level. Or you have Cam Smith, who won the Players Flagship event of of the PGA Tour. Ironically he's won on the

Live Tour. He's one in Australia, happened to win of the tournament in St Andrews. I mean, to me, it's got to be Cam. But there are about John rom winning on three continents, as he likes to tell us. Yeah he deserves mentioned, but um you know, smaller time tournaments, it's Camp Smith, It's Camp Smith. Michael. Do you want do you want even make an argument for Rory just for the sake of making an argument? You dare double

dog dare No, No, okay, that's Cap Smith. I think it brings up a bigger point though, is like Cam Smith still his third idea like he's going to fall right.

I don't know how long, how long this wind helps him, and I don't know how to do eventually if he just continues to play you know, live events and they don't get points, like if you're if he drops to say, and you're the nineteenth ranked player, you know, like it becomes it becomes an obsolete ranking system when everyone knows that there's x amount of players however many, and that at that time live players are are falling down the

list like it's it. It just devalues the o w g R to a joke basically, Michael, you wrote a column about this a few days ago on Firepit Collective dot com. What are your thoughts about the current state of the o w g R. I mean, truly, you know, I I never really thought of it, just the way that Ryan worded that, but it's it's true. I mean, now Cam Smith is not gonna have any problems came any tournaments because of what he's won. He's set for at least the next five years and probably only than that.

I think it's truly I felt like it was never truly worthwhile a lot of people would argue that it is but I don't see what purpose it serves now. And I posted that question. You know, you know, David's love is the person who planted this idea in my head that we don't really need the World Golf Ranking.

Upon further review, what he's really saying is they shouldn't use Every tour should have its own ranking system, and that and they and this is actually from David Fay, the former executive director of the U s g A. His idea was that the four major should get together and they should decide on the criteria for getting into the majors and only the major's Let live does Let Live do its thing, Let the PGA Tour do it's thing,

Let the dp World Tour do it's thing. And I think that's great sense, Alan, I, as you and I have talked about before. I'm sure Ryan knows this as well. It's a commercial venture that was invented by the guy who founded I MG and another I to get their international players into more tournaments. As Gene Baman, the former pH Tour commission told me last week when McCormick came

up with it, and this is funny. It what he wasn't being altruistic, Yeah, I mean that would be like if if we came up with the official World Golf Media rankings and the three of us were one, two and three, and you know everyone else is below us, would be like, Okay, that's slightly suspicious. I mean we could, we could invent some metric to justify it. But uh, you know, like John Garwardy belongs to the top three of all time according to US. Yes, I know, emeritus

at least. But Claire Rodgers from Golf magazine, Uh, you both worked with her, uh, said that we should do a bit for media members, you know, and see where everybody ranks and and you know, just pay off the best. I mean, let's do it. I mean, we need an independent body to to pay it out, though you can't have it come from the two. But like, I don't know if the tour is too independent. That's what I'm saying. We should get like we get the Pulitzer commissioned. But

will they get into the pit business? What what? What? What would it be? Ryan? What is her point? I'm just saying, like it's it's she was being rank. She was just she was it was a joke. It was like Tiger didn't do anything, so like let's say, uh, I don't know somebody who's retired or that doesn't write much anymore. You guys wouldn't know better, but they would automatically win because they were great forever, right like Dan Jenkins,

Like Dan Jakin's winning the PIP even though he's fucking dead. Yeah, yeah, just be like, Oh, I mean he's been the greatest. That's all there is in modern golf journalism. Let's have an honorarium forever. Yeah, it's like the dream of Tiger U well Man post a quick question here on the on the subject Pip and I know you're gonna get to it. What do you both think? In his heart of hearts, he wouldn't admit it, not even to Erica.

Does Tiger Woods thing him winning the fifteen million dollar for place Pip Grand Prize even though he played what about three events? Well, he knows it's lame. But I think even I remember when remember Michael Jordan's when he because the salary cap is if he finally signed his first big contractors, like for thirty million dollars and it was by far the biggest contract in the league, and he complained he was still underpaid because that was factual.

So I'm sure Tigers like I was, I've always been underpaid, so this is like back pay. I think he sees it as something that he's owed and that he's due and what however, cheeseball the mechanism is to put in his pocket. I don't think he's that mad about it. I think if you gave him truth Stoom, if you gave him truth Stom and he said, well, he would go, yeah, it's ridiculous. But if they're gonna pay it, I definitely

deserve it, and he would be right. I mean, like, if they're going to give it to anybody, it's I mean, no, no, like it's a ridiculous I just said this in a text to a player. I don't I don't know if you play, like just say it, like to be like, hey, this is it, Like we we make fun of live for these guaranteed contracts, like Tiger is going to get whatever. The first place prize for pip is is im Perportuity is going to be two Tiger Woods, So just say

it's part of his kind. I mean, just say, hey, we're gonna give Tiger Woods forty five million dollars or a hundred million dollars or whatever. Don't try to claim that there's some metric that measures it, like it's insane, Like just say, hey, Tiger has been great for this game. He's an important part of it. He's gonna limp out there a couple of times a year and we're gonna rine him a check for fifteen million. That's it. It's okay. No one would be mad at that. Yeah. I made

this point in a recent ask Allen. And the one thing that Tour had going for it in it's in this this battle for hearts and minds against Live is that it was a meritocracy and you gotta earn it over here and over over. On Live, they're just giving away money and they're they're they're chanting the competition and they're demotivating the players. But now that Tours doing that too, because like you said, there's never any doubt that Tiger and Rory one two in the pit just as a

thank you for their advocacy. And we knew that that Justin Thomas would be three or four because he was outspoken. It's like it is just a slush fund to buy these guys loyalty. No one's mad about it, Like Okay, we want to keep our best players, so we're gonna make him We're gonna make him home. I mean, that's like, it is what it is. I'm to Alan's pointed about. You know, the whole point of the pH A Tour

is earn and earn it. Why not just do it on a meta, on a meritocracy basis, and just pay more money to the players who finished at the top of the money list because Tiger wouldn't be there, because Tiger's never going to be near the top of the list, and and Rory's not gonna be either. I mean, Rory might be, but if he like splits up his time between Euroupe and here, they just want to pay their best players. That But that's what the FedEx Cup is, Michael,

there's this. It's Gary. It's guaranteed up to a point, but you sort of have to earn it. Like but it's the fixes kind of in like they've already loved the tour, doesn't doesn't want to pay Corey Connors any extra money, Okay, Like if he want the money list and they got fifteen more million, they'd be like Jesus, like this one's gonna hurt I gotta write a fifteen million dollar check to Corey Connor to be fair to the people listening. I love Corey Connors. I think he

deserves it. Go ahead. I think the real question is does the tourer want to be true to what the tour has always represented? And sadly it's not. And I think actually that's going to cost the tour in the long run. I think they want to Michael, they can't. I mean that, what like there are other choice is to let if they don't do anything, if they didn't do these elevated events, if they didn't do pitt Eventually the money being dangled by the Lift Tour just becomes

too good in my opinion. I mean, it already has been too good for very top players if there wasn't some some change on the PGA Tour. Again, I don't really blame the PGA Tour for changing. I blame them for this like bullshit that they you know, put that there's some metric to measure PIP. I mean, just say it again, there is metric, but it's ridiculous. Well so to the point, does Tiger deserve the top PIP money?

So they had these five categories and he was actually number one in Google searches among all golfers, which is us. You know, it definitely would be tied to the public interest. There's the melt Water mans Alan Quickdowne on that sadly, you could drive off the side of the road and kill and and that's terrible word to use. You could drive up the side of the road and do very well on Google searches. Yeah, that's true, that's true. You know,

same with melt Water, which is social media. He was number one Q score, which is I mean again, that's it. That's the that's the perfect right, like social media. He's terrible at social media, right, he doesn't do anything like agents do it. His PR team doesn't. He doesn't and I understand he doesn't want to do he doesn't need to do it, so it's PR team doesn't like That's

what I'm saying. Yeah, but you put if Tiger post one swing video, it dominates social media, like so the tour has they are trying to quantify it, but it is They all got in a room and go, hey, guys, we need to quantify Tiger winning every year. To come up with a system Tiger every year. I know, but if you if you do a deep dive on the on some of the pip stuff. It is funny like, um, you know, John Ram went from ninth to fiveth, which meant extra many millions of dollars, but you didn't actually

pass anybody. It's just the Live guys. Everybody left, Yeah, Nicholson to Shambo, DJ and Brooks were excised and that's how we roll went from ninth to fifth. It's not even popular, never was. But the other guys. Can either of you explain to me this absolute weirdness by which some guys got paid based on what the rules will

be in three. I really didn't understand that. Yeah, yeah, so that was That was Headecki and cam Young you cam ung I. I believe that those two players were possibly going to sign with Live and magically they've gotten a to another two million dollars. It's like it's like it's a fixed system. It's no possible way it is because the tour is completely upstanding. They would never do that. It's just I didn't even understand incidental. I didn't even

understand that. Alan, can you explain the footnote? The footnote is they didn't want those guys to leave, so they came up to right the Phillies. Phillies might win the World Series next year, and they played pretty durnwell this year, so we're going to give him a World Series ring anyhow. I mean, yeah, the tour basically said we're going to change the rules next year. But if these if if the new rules were in effect this year, these guys

would have finished in the top twenty. So we don't want to penalize them for an old system, which is still the current system. So we're gonna give the money under the new system. Which doesn't completely coincidental that those two players were in talks with Live not even you know that five word piece that you might or might not write about how Tim and Finchham gone to Augusta National. It already won the Golf Writers Association Award for News, so I would even I wouldn't even bother writing it

at this point. I I will look forward to getting the plaque in the mail. Um. Yeah, the whole thing is so nutty, and but I, you know, I agree with both of you, Michael, like I does think. I do think that this this damages the tours standing and it makes them look ridiculous, and it makes them look cheesy, And I agree with Ryan that they had to do something and this was some way to to hand out the money, and so this is just here, this is

where we are. Yeah, I mean that second part is really interesting to me because why why do you feel he had to do something? In other words, if you redefine yourself to such a degree that you're not what you have been, then are you actually defeating your own stated purpose? Well, Michael, this is the difference is you're an idealist and Ryan is a realist. And I agree with what you're saying that that the tour has always been a symbol of of of of of merit, and

it's always been the ultimate proving ground. But those days are over. I mean, the landscape has changed so dramatically, that human nature being what it is, when the money being so big that the tour had to fight for its top players. And you can't do that with pats on the back, and you can't do it with um, you know, feel good TV commercials. You gotta do it with cold hard cash. That's just that's what the name of the game is. And they had to find a system,

and this is what they came up with. You see, I think that it was so called best players left then you know his Nicholas has been saying this for a while. Then new best players would emerge eventually, But like, I mean, who who's who's the best player who's emerged in the in the last couple of years. It's Cam Smith, He's gone, Oh Cam Young? You know some someone will come up. Yeah, but yeah, Young was almost gone. And and if they didn't do all these things and they

didn't give it to him, he's probably already gone. Well. And and Scottie Shuffler would be the other player who's really emerged in the last twelve eight months. And we all love the guy, but he's boring as hell, and it's hard. It's hard to build. I mean, are you gonna are you gonna make Scotty Shuffler your your show pony? Like if they lost speed, then they lost Rory, Like, I mean, come on, you're right, Eventually new players fill

the void. But but not if you not, if you're considered a triple a of of golf, like you gotta have you gotta have an argument about who who's the best, what's the best tour In order to have some value to create new stars, you see. I think there's a built in supposition to what you both are saying that the world has some ryan What the supposition? What is that?

Keep talking about them? I think that I think there's a built in supposition to what you guys are saying that there's some kind of demand for a global golf tour, and I don't think there is. The best players did come gravitate to the United States, including seven, Greg Norman and many others over the years, Cam Smith and Rory McElroy because the tour had, you know, the best events, the best range balls of course, the highest purses and

all the rest. But it was still an American tour, and there was a European tour, and there was a nation tour. And I don't really think that's ever going to change. And uh, at some point this this this lived tour is going to have to I don't know. I just don't actually think it's going to fly as a global tour because there's no history of that ever succeeding. There's a there's a history for the opposite, and that's

why the four Majors are the four majors. Michael, I agree with that part in some sense, but it doesn't mean the players of today wouldn't leave like they Obviously, everybody has a price within reason. I mean Cam Smith, I don't think he was lying when he said, hey, have enough money, you know, I want to buy fishing boats, whatever.

And then they put out whatever. They put out two hundred million dollars for him to go, and he's like, oh, well, two hundred million dollars, it's still two hundred million dollars. Uh uh. I mean, I just I just don't I I don't think the players would care enough with the right price. And I mean they've made a ton of inroads. They have some of the best players, you know, they have.

People can argue about this all the time, but at some point they have like whatever, seven of the top ten, you know, or seven players that have been in the top ten. I mean they have some of the best players in the DJ and and Brooks were the best player in the world not too long ago. And they're gone. They're gone, and they were gone from our consciousness. I mean, when do you ever think about either of those guys.

I just wrote it. I just wrote a story about Brooks's brother, so a lot, and he turned me down for what's his what's his agent's name, Jeff Blake with the Bengals quarterback Blake Smith Blake, Smith Blake, if you're listening next time, it was yeah, Blake, it was a bad choice, Blake, like, this is such a humanizing story and the whole Worlds Brooks is a dick. This would have been a nice chance for him to show that he's a caring, loving big brother and show a softer

side and it was anyway, well let's move on. But um, yeah, I mean, we can talk about this forever. I think again, you guys are both right, Like, yes, Michael, there's there's not a ton of interest and live golf other than the noise around it. No one's bought into the competition yet and it maybe in three or five years it does kind of fizzle out, but the PGA Tour could

not give up its stars for that long. And um, you know, like Sam burn is another guy who's really emerged in the last few years and there's no golf and that has the same emotional investment in Sam Burns as they do. And George Speed like you can't replace one with the other and think it's not going to hurt the tour. I'm not saying Jordan is ever even close to leaving, but like it's those top guys, you

have to they drive the whole sport. I mean, when Jordan is playing well, there is an electricity around the golf world that you can't you can't just plug another layer in and think that people are gonna care in the same way. It's a you know, there's a unique confluence of personality and game and history and um. You know, so the tour had to keep their guys. They just did. I I don't agree. I really do believe it's golf that drives golf and uh, and whoever wins, you know,

Curtis Strange became Curtis Strange on the basis of winning. Uh. There was a period, you know, after Nicholas is heyday and even Watson's heyday in the eighties when they sort of look like automatons and you couldn't tell the difference between you know, you know, John Cook and the next guy. But first off, but there was no other place to watch golf, Michael, now there is. That's that's the difference. It's like, really, what what what what is the other

place to watch golf live? I'm saying there's another name three people. I love that. I'm just saying there's another place to get it, Like you know, people, I totally agree with you, Michael. I've said it many times. Live is like a snooze fest. To me, I'm not disagreeing with you. I don't. I would from a golf perspective, I want the PGA Tour to be the place that I watched my golf. It's just the way it is.

But well, there hasn't, but there hasn't been another place to get it because Live has not been on TV, so like this this this year. You're right, Michael, that really wasn't. But assuming that that that's TV deal happens before Live launches in February, like that would be a game changer. If you can walk into a grill room and COMMUNI course and have Live on, or you can just while you're channel surfing, you can ease theisiblicks are

ahead of the Red Dragons. But the point is, if you're a casual golf fan and you you have you can choose between watching like a Dustin cam Smith Brooks kept Bryson the Shambo shootout versus Sam Burns beating um. You know Corey Connors. I think a lot of people will do fault players that they know, and so this

was this year was a beta test for Live. And I don't think we could really make any serious um or drawing serious conclusions until the end of twenty three, when they've had a full year on TV and they've baked out their concept and they're not just building the plane while they fly it. So, UM, I think the jury style this question and I like that, you know, I I appreciate the courage of your convictions, Michael, And uh, that's part of this forum is we're free to disagree

with each other. But um, I think Live can evolve into something that people will watch passively. They may not care as much, But I think, did you say passionately? I said passively? It's just kind of on and you and you enjoy. Yeah, right, that's that's that's a that's a big difference because to me, the things that we're drawn to actually have some cultural emotional impact on our lives. Like let's say, like the winner of the Baseball World Series, the winner of you know, the of the of the

Japan Baseball League's World Series. It would be novel and it would be sort of interesting, but it wouldn't be bigger than the World Series, would just be some added on thing. Uh. I think they've got an immense challenge ahead of them. And you know, also even like every once in a while there's a freakish event on the PGA Tour, like they're at Tampa, you know, and shawn O hair plays good. It's like, wow, where's this guy Ben? And uh, there's it's so beautiful. Uh, because he earned

his way in. He earned his way into the final group. And now like, let's see what this skinny kid can do. I mean that to me is golf? How old is Shuttle here? Yestree? I was gonna say forty one? Hold on, I don't know. I'm gonna say thirty nine. Shuttle't here, it's forty years old. Good call Alan, Hey, this is a fun little bit. Let's not. Let's not. There's a bit that just ended. Um. But you've been you've been talking about how how much money is in professional golf?

You see. You see the power of being the host, Bryan, Because I would love to ask you, how do you think Chrissie kim is I can't because that bit is over. Sorry, it's a great question. I love to know what you think. I'll never get your answer. Well, whatever wants to talk about, go ahead and talking about this. It's not it's not about me. It's about the listeners, and we don't want to test their patients while Ryan searches the Internet modem.

By the way, Ryan Allen ship because of my good friends for twenty five years, I cannot tell you his age with a half decade everybody. Every two years I have to ask Schipnuk are you older younger than Tiger Woods? And even right now I can't remember older older. Actually I have a big birthday coming up in May. I'll be I'll be for the Senior Tour. So it makes things easier. I think I can remember that. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Uh oh well, okay, speaking of Tiger Ways, let's let's we gotta touch on this because Tiger Month is about to begin. I mean he's playing three times. Um, you know he's gonna make those three tournaments fifteen million dollars. Well, there's guaranteed payout at the Hero World Challenge too, so I'm sure there's an appearance feat that it's a non

sanctioned event. Yeah so yeah, So I mean in a few days that the hero kicks off down the Bahamas and um, you know it's obviously a great field Tigers he's and they're giving out world ranking point there's only twenty guys there, so Tiger's gonna move up a thousand spots just by teeing it up. But I know, I know, so for all the tour purists who who who loved the bag on Live for trying to get world ranking points, this is a tough week for them. Tough week, really

tough week. And then of course I'm actually I'm sort of looking forward of the match seven and they're using Roman numerals, another affront to to the Live people. The match v one one. Um, but I mean that's a lost oar power. It's Tiger and Rory against JT and Speeed.

I mean I'll watch that. It's it's always awkward. You know, they're biked up, they're trying to be funny and they're not, and Tigers brooding and you know JT is being petulant like their true selves always come out eventually, But um, you know, I that to me, that will be worth watching. It's under the lights on a Saturday night after pretty much after all the football is over. Um is Michaelson doing the play by play on? Yeah? So I mean Michael he should that would be epic. But Michelson has

been booted out of the franchise. That's one of the biggest losses of Phil leaving. I mean, he was going to be the best announcer in golf history. I mean he was going to be unreal and now gone forever. I mean, if if Live is smart, they put him up there in the in the booth of charity and really well, I mean that's um, you know, if if they didn't have shotguns, you could do it like put Phil the morning wave then he commentates in the afternoon kind of thing. But unfortunately he's on the course at

the same time. But um, maybe he'll mysteriously like sprain his wrist and he'll just be in the booth for the whole all of next year. It would be he would be way more valuable on the mic than between the By the way, just quick, before we get more into this, shaunow Hare has twenty five million dollars in career earnings. I was gonna say that, but we got sidetracked.

So talking about there's you know, all this new money in golf, Well, there's always been money in golf, because years ago I was talking to Paul Casey, who's a big Porsche guy. He now has a deal and he's got a bunch of Porsches, and he was he says, he was talking about Shanno Hare's Ferrari collection. I was like,

shadow Hair has Ferrari's. God, I should have worked at my short game like this is when shawn O'Hair was like in the depths of of like a multi year slope, like it's always been decadent out there, but it's gotten way more so. Um. But I was I've rarely been that like flabber gas about any piece of information. It was nothing against him. He's had a good career, especially when he's young. But when he's owner Ferrari's things are

going well, very well. I've seen him fly coach with me, uh West palmed to Philadelphia, so well, maybe maybe he sold them off. But at that moment in time, whenever that was like, honestly, it's like two thousand thirteen or fourteen, I was like, god, damn um. And then of course, just to finish off the tiger bit and we'll talk about these things when they actually happened. But talking about Tiger month, the fifth Major is now the father's son.

That's the week before Christmas. And um I said this again, and one of one of my mail bags that I think at this moment in time that that Charlie Woods is a single most valuable commercial property in golf. If you could sign any player for any endorsement, I think it's Charlie Woods because you also get Tiger with him, and you're gonna go on this journey with him. Like if if I if I became CEO tomorrow of whatever, A T and T, and I could only sign one player,

he would be Charlie Woods. Like the interest in that kid, and he's you know, he's got a beautiful golf swing, he's great looking, he's multicultural, it's got the most famous name in sports. Like um, so the the the Charlie content that week is gonna be out of control because he's gotten bigger and stronger and he's sitting it farther and um, you know it's people are just obsessed with him.

So I'm not saying it's the it's it's an indictment of popular culture and and and the marketplace and everything else. But I honestly believe that that Charlie Wood is more valuable than Roy McElroy or Dustin Johnson or John rom or any of them. Yeah, the PGA Tour is rooting hard for Charlie Woods too to bring it home and then a couple of years like skip college be good enough at like nineteen or twenty to go directly to

the PGA Tour. I mean they are, they are all in because if Charlie Woods becomes any sort of player, the tables have turned again back towards the PGA Tour. I try not to be serious on this show, but I just really hope that Charlie Woods can find happiness because being Tiger Woods, his kid's gotta beat. I just wrote an article about Chase not easy to be the

little brother of the best player in the world. This is obviously on a humongously another level than that, uh or thirty times or a hundred times above that the kid of Tiger Woods has got some real pressure, especially because he plays the game at a somewhat good level. Now he's not like a top top of the world, but he's getting better, and uh it's I just hope the kid finds some happiness that's way too serious for this podcast. But you're never going to live up to

what your dad did. It's impossible, Uh, And everybody's or the general public is going to expect you to be something. And I hope that if he wants wins one corn for event and never does anything, that he's happy. I do think that actually, in a weird way, that the pressure is lower on Charlie because we know he can't

be as good as his dad. Nobody can. And it's also, I mean, you know about this very well, Michael, Like, in the long history of golf, there's been many sons who follow, you know, follow their fathers, and there's been brothers, there's it's just it's very rare. I mean, is Bill Hoss Is he the best uh you know progeny of a tour player to come along? Who's who else is in the conversation. But it's not like there's been these multigeneration dynasties. Yeah, did did Davis Love Junior quickly? The

quickly quickly? It's quickly in Dana, Yeah, David Davis Love Junior played some tournament golf and Davis three played rap Floyd's kid played for a while, yeah, Robert, Yeah, Gary player's kids or won the one success successful in golf. Yeah, and a lot of them unfortunately weren't successful in light and other things in life. Right. Yeah. So, I mean I think if Charlie could could if and again this

is this is a it's an incredibly high bar. If you could even just be an everyday tour player and maybe squeak out a win here or they're like, that would be he would probably be the second greatest son in golf history behind Bill has like that, that would be an accomplishment. So, um, there is there even a single example of a of a daughter of a LPG player who who who made it onto the tour the second generation lp J player. Yeah, that's not for me. No,

that's true. Um. I know Honica's kids are really into it. Her has a she has a son and a daughter. But no, I can't think of any that that's a great point. I mean, I mean, I think golf is really the um it's it's really a sport of fathers and sons. I mean, you know, Ryan, you've written very eloquently about the rest of beyond with your dad, and that's that's how so many people are drawn to the game.

It's interesting because, um, you know, I'm I'm writing about Greg Norman well all the time, but especially for this live book and are another typing colleague, ards Tom Collahan Callahan had a great riff about how you know, it's always about fathers and sons in golf, but there's only

there's only two mama's boys out there. One is foul though, and his mom was was really the driving persons career, and the others Norman because Norman's dad didn't play golf, it was his mom, and Norman's exposure to the game was caddying for his mom. And so it's interesting that, Um, that's just one way they're linked. But it's hard to think of any others. You could say Tiger in some ways because Tita kind of gave him that killer instinct and she was a huge part of his career as well.

But we all know Earl gets all the credit. So uh, it's it's an interesting debate. I mean, well, we'll see, We'll see how how Charlie plays. It's all eyes are on Tiger, but in a weird way, Charlie is a bigger star coming you know at the father son, have you made any Are you gonna try to reach Norman's parents? I believe they're still love. Yeah, I put some feelers out.

I mean, it's an interesting it's an interesting challenge. You know, this book, the the this lawsuit, this antitrust lawsuit between the tour and Live Golf has given everyone to cover to say no to interviews and to try and lock things down. But I'm I'm starting to make some I'm

starting to crack that a little bit. Um. I'm when I said I was talking about that that show Fleischmann, and you said Ari Fleischer, Ryan, I'm I'm actually I'm actually dealing with Ari Fleischer because he's, oh, he's he's at he's a head of Live or whatever. He's like something's whatever. He's basically like a general counsel in some ways to that, and so like I have to I pretty much have to, I think, convince him to if

I'm gonna get some more face time in Norman. Even though you know, I talked to Norman in the parking lot in Portland. We had this like come to Jesus conversation for half an hour and um, and he said he would he shook my hand. He looked me in the eye and said, yeah, I'll let's sit down. I'll tell you everything. And but you know, everyone has a boss, including Greg Norman. So he's been put on ice for now. But I'm this is all subject um to negotiation and revision.

So yeah, it's it's it's it's a fun challenge. Michael. He's a really interesting person to write about because you know, he is a he is a bright person, he's a charismatic person um and he must be extremely popular because it seems like everything that he at touches the name to his name to cells, and yet it seems like he's also one of the most reviled figures in golf. I've I've spent a lot of time with Norman. I've always found very enjoyable really just just to be with.

I'm really sort of perplexed by, you know, this whole thing. You know, if we've heard it from many people, Rory and Davis and UH and even UH Commissioner Jay Monahan and UH. He's brash and there's a lot of things you can say about him, but I don't see the level of virtual for him. I don't really know where that that comes from you have Do you have an insight into that one? Is it what was it always there? Um or? Or did come out of lived? Did has

Tiger stirred it up in some ways? Since there's such

an amounts of between those two. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean I've been going back and reading a lot of old stuff about Norman, old magazine profiles, old newspaper clippings, um biographies, and everyone seems to think he's really fun to hang out with if you can get if you can just go out fishing with him, or you can sit around and drink a Foster's that he does have a lot of charm and charisma, but you put him in in the in the arena, whether it's it's a

golf tournament or it's in a boardroom, and there's a different side to him, and it's he's he gets very defensive, he's very bitter, he's very calculating, and so I think your experience is genuine. Michael, like, if you can just if you could just be around him one on one,

I think I think it's a good company. But you know, butch Harmon had a great quote that um I dug up somewhere He's like, there's just two Greg Norman's back to your point, Michael, I mean, I think a lot of the general public probably likes Greg Norman because they just don't know the other side of him. Same with Phil. Right, this is like he kind of fooled I don't know, fooled everybody for a long time. And and maybe live has made it more prominent for both of them, obviously

in the book and whatnot. But like, you know, the general golfing public like Greg Norman because he was good looking, and he was good and talked, you know, like articulate and and fun and I and Phil was fun and thumbs up and all that kind of and people loved him. The general golf public loved him. That people on the inside probably like, yeah, he's an asshole. Yeah. No. The parallels are very interesting because Norman and Nicholson have never

been friends. Of Norman's about fifteen years older, but uh, they're definitely kindred spirits. There's a lot of similarities there, and they're even the way they played the game right, you know, reckless to the point one of all the tournaments and they lost a lot of tournaments. But the way they lived the life is kind of similar, as you're saying, Ryan, like, there's been a lot of there. They've left a lot of wreckage behind them, and it's wild that they are now. Um, their fortunes and their

their legacies are linked in some ways. Um, there's just a very similar energy around both of them. So it's kind of fun to alwinn that as Obviously I went deep on Phil and now I'm doing the same on Norman. And you may want to save this for the book, but what is Norman bitter about? I mean, came over here with nothing but uh, you know, some golf shirts and and look at him, now, why is he better? Yeah,

it's it's an interesting thing. I Mean, the guy's always you know, the man who had everything right and it was never enough, and there was a voracious nous. They're almost like an emptiness and um, there's there. If there's something devoid at your core, you're always trying to fill it up with with other things. And I think that's

kind of been the story of Norman's life. For Greg hasn't always just been the the fight to conquer, like kind of the Chris Everett right, like, oh hey, I'm gonna marry Chris Everett and now I'm not even gonna live with her and we're gonna be divorced in a few minutes. Like like, if Live becomes the most popular golf and the PGA Tour is dead, I don't think

that's gonna happen. Both just say it does. Greg's gonna leave because, like that said, he like once Live, if Live ever gets to the top of the golf world, Craig's gonna leave because he's just he's all about the fight. It seems from the outside, I don't know nothing about I've never had any conversations with him, just saying like it just looks like from the outside, everything he's done has kind of been like the fight, and then when it's when the fight's over, he's just like, yeah, I'm

out of here. Yeah, that's true. He kind of thrives on conflict, it seems like. And uh, he's it's an interesting it's an interesting thing. I mean, he he's always been an outsider, right coming trying to conquer Europe early in his career, then coming to America, he always had to he always had to kind of uh scrap and for acceptance, and then he was he was the best player in the world and he had all the endorsements and he was on the throne, and then that ultimate

humiliation of trying to get the world tore going. And you know that that's obviously a seminal moment in all of this. But there's a pattern here, like he's he's always been the outsider and he kind of I think he thrives on it, but it also, yeah, it embitters him because he doesn't have that acceptance that he craves

so deeply. And so he's a fascinating character and it's you know, he's he was, he was the most important guy in global golf for a long time and you can argue he is once again, which is exactly how he wants it. I mean, it is amazing. You know, people you know Ryan's age and younger, would you know, talk so much about how Justin Thomas and Jordan's Speith and Rory McRoy you don't model their their golfing lives

and ambitions over over Tiger Woods. But in the history of golf, there's never been a study of of a golfer closer than Tiger Woods. Making the life and times of Greg Norman m surprised that story is not more widely known. But between Butch Harmon and Steve Williams and you know, Greater Jupiter, Florida and just so many you know, driving it long and and play, you know, Uh, really focusing on distance control is the number one goal of your irons. Uh. The work ethic of both was extraordinary.

Butch Harmon, if I didn't mention that, it's just a long, long list. Uh, but I don't think the general public has really even picked up on that. And and I believe the order goes alan You'll know, it's better than I I think. I think Greg Norman was the number one player in the world according to the Official World Golf Rankings is founded by Mark McCormick. Oh, they both went to I MJ. And then I think I think the next guy was Tiger Woods. Is that correct? Yeah,

I have to I have to look at it. Six or seven, there was there was Tom Lehman was world number one for one week in there. It's like one of my favorite I think it probably went from Norman to Woods. There was a passage at the Mantel for sure, and even I mean the nineties six Masters, of course,

which is a defining moment in Norman's career. He comes back in ninety seven, so hell bent on redemption and uh he misses the cut and Tiger wins, and it's like at that Norman's career ended up at that point, like he was ceased to be relevant in any way. Now, Tiger he clipped a lot of people, but Norman was hoping, how one last act and that was it. It It was over.

And just the the how jarring that was to go from one master to the next seven Like what you're saying is true, Michael, I mean Tigers stole what should have been Greg's in some ways, you know, whether it was a caddy or was a swing coach or it was it was a place in the game. And and

Harmon definitely there was a fork in the road. He had to am, I gonna stay with Norman, orm I gonna go with Tiger, And he obviously we know how what he chose, and and so he chose the guy like Norman's said, he chose correctly guy like Norman is not used to being spurned, and that that burned him, Like there's always been no love loss between those two characters, Tiger and Norman, and you're seeing it still playing out.

I mean that was quarter century ago and and there's still on the opposite you know, sides of the of the ledger now, so it's uh, it is. It is interesting subtext and that's definitely something I'm pursuing. But you're you're very perceptive there. Michael Norman loves to tell the story about that they both live. I think that would be considered uh Jupiter Island, and uh they've got these little bridges uh to take you over the intra coastal, and Norman loves to tell the story. I'm sure Alan

you can get to tell it. Uh, where the bridge goes up and Norman pulls up next to Tiger and both in the same car, and Norman's with his wife. Norman's waving a Tiger and Tiger's got that tunnel vision. He knows Norman's there and he will not acknowledge him and waved back. That's I mean, you get that's an entire book. That one moment right like that, that tells you so much. And it's uh so yeah, all those things are are going to be fun. Part of this

is what I'm typing. But he says a lot about Tiger too, you know how how about you know, so Norman, of course did not one of the nineties six Masters, and Faldo did, and how would and now Tiger wins nine and falder drapes that coat on on Tiger Woods. I mean, there's never been a changing of the guard to golf more pointnant than than that. And you know, it's like, you know, these super billionaires, you know, why can't they all get along? Why can't great Norman, Nick

Faldo and Uhum and Tiger Woods get along? You know, Tiger loves Sevey and allot of the ball and you know various others from that generation. But he really had a thing about those two and Watson and I don't even think it like Ray Floyd that much. No Watson for sure. I mean, well, Johnny Miller had a great quote about this. Um. It's actually it was a high media's story I remember, and and Miller's like, yeah, it's Hall of Fame guys. We don't really get along, you know.

It's just He's like, we just it's just a different personality. He's like, we were not meant to mix. And I'm paraphrasing, but uh, there's something to you that. I mean, it takes such a I mean, Nick Price was a nice guy who made number one. There's there's been a few, but you look at you look the best play rs, they tend to be dicks. I mean, we like just go, I'm Ben home and Ben Hoden was a gentleman, but

he was certainly frosty. I mean, there's a there's a personality type, like a foul though, like a Floyd Um, like a tiger. I mean, you know Scottie Shuffler a nice guy, but so the legends of they gave a lot of them were crusty. Man, they got an edge, and that's just maybe what it takes. Well, all right, we're coming up on an hour, it's the Witching hour. Any final thoughts for our listeners before we release them

to um to get on with their lives after Thanksgiving? No, happy Thanksgiving to all, and uh always a lot of fun, Allen. I hope you're well the court sing in the new year. Let's end on a serious note. We are thankful for the listeners out there because it gives us a reason to get out of bed. Like this, I like your use of the plural Alan. Yes, well, we all have various family members at the very least, so Uh, but no, it's we do appreciate you guys tuning in and and

keeping this thing going. So we will be back for another Sunday Fire Drill. It'll be the conclusion of the hero World Challenge, will be a lot to chew on, and uh maybe we'll be more Corey Paven cameos. You never know what you're gonna get on Fire Drill. I'm

gonna go buy a Cleveland set of bosses right now. Alan, If if you do get Ari Fleisher, could you ask him if he's related to the late Bruce Slisher, a great U s Amitar champion and a great and a great senior player from yesteryear and really a terrific guy. That'll be my opening gambit. See hey, alright, I know this is I'm writing a book, but before that, are you related to Bruce? I mean, yeah, we're all related somehow. Michael, you know if we're gonna get metaphysical here during the

holiday season. But thanks everybody for listening and making this a thing. And Michael and Allen, thank you both for all you have done for me and this podcast. That's it. I hate to be serious, but it's okay, right, you can you can be sappy. It's that time of year. So all right, this has been another fire drill. I'm alan ship knuck. That was right, friends, Michael bam Rigger. We will do it again next week. Thanks for listening.

That's the end. I've been big and I played to win, made a fortune within my ship game, and I ran the table, never thought I could fall. Then the winter time hit me like a cannon ball, and now I can't shake this losing the street. Every road I take is a dead end street. I got thoughts in my head. Can't get him out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about about, got tho in my head. I can't get him out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about