Fire Drill 048: The LIV Grades Are In

the butter Ball Bermuda. Somebody on Twitter called it the butter ball instead of the butterfield, so we're calling it the butter ball and all the stories that come with that. We talk about Bannon Dunes and our trip there, and we rank all the courses. We talked about my swearing, we talk about I mean, it's insane. It's always a fire drill, It's crazy. We were super tired, Uh, but we we got it done. Before we get into the actual podcast, I want to thank We want to thank

a couple of our sponsors, Dormy Workshop. This is when Alan Shipnik usually says artisanal. I don't even know what that is. They make club covers and putter covers. I don't know what artisanal neans, but supposedly there artisanal, so uh, Dormy Workshop is a great supporter of ours. So check them out and then uh part points the app. Uh it's a great way, a new way of scoring. It's awesome app use it go make par huge supporter of us. They sent us some bottles of wine while we're at

Bandon Dunes. I'm not a wine drinker. I'm a Jack and coke drinker. But I did drink their wine. Uh so it was amazing wine. Uh power points. Dormy Workshop great supporters of the fire Pit. As you can see above my head, fire Pit, the fire Pit Collective. I'm in the office, flew down from Bandon. That's all I got. Jake's laughing at me, and here is us talking about the week in golf. I got can't you chan nothing thing? Well, what I'm thinking about? Can't get them? H think well

I'm thinking about. Hello. This is Alan ship Knuck back for another fire Drill podcast. I am joined uh per usual by Michael Bamberger and Ryan Frent. We were doing these every Sunday, but because we were all three of us were in trans at home from Bandon. It's now Monday morning. But our dedication to you, the listener remains so um guys. We were. We were having a heck of a time in one of the greatest spots on Earth.

But um, what was interesting to me was that, you know, a bandoned is the mecca for the recreational golfer in America, and you're you're surrounded by golf conversations at all times, and people are talking about their gear, and they're putting stroke and their favorite players and whether they're gonna go to the map Ssters next year and whatever. I mean,

every conversation is infused with golf. Um. But I did not hear anyone talking about the Live finale in Miami, even though it was a pretty exciting event and had an interesting format. You had, uh, you had some some heavyweight matchups, you know, camp Smith taken down Phil Mickelson and in their in their singles, and you had you had a top finish, but it wasn't on the TV, in the grill room, it wasn't on the lips of

the golfers. Um. I just thought it was an interesting dichotomy. Um, so what now that the first season is over and and it's all in the books, what do we think of where Live is and what do we think of what happened in Miami, and let's just talk about that for a little while. Somebody start, Michael is starting, Okay, I guess I'm starting. No, Michael, you start okay, he's shaking it off. Um season overall one bigger and more

impact than I think any of us dreamed. I mean to think that Cam Smith and Dustin Johnson and Brooks Kepka and Bryson de Shambo would be playing anywhere else besides the PGA Tour is wild. Uh. And I don't think even the Live loyalists at the beginning of this thought in their first season they would have marquete names like that I should and I don't think any of us did. So the impact on the game is obvious. Uh.

The PGA Tour change your whole structure. So for the people that are like, oh we negative live like they have made an impact, there's a hundred. There's no Anyone who says that you haven't is not being realistic. That being said, I don't know how they get anyone to care. Uh. And you said it perfectly that Sunday dinner or Saturday

dinner is we have twenty four nerds. We are like when I say nerds, I mean, me and one of the players that was with us at Bandon are breaking down the Bermuda field, and the Bermuda field is deep in the weeds of of golf nersery. I mean, that leader board is like, I mean, you've got to be a serial, serious golf fan to to be locked in on that. And we hadn't talked about live and the only time we you brought it up and we talked about it was the fact that we hadn't talked about it.

And I don't know how to overcome that because I mean that night I looked it up. I mean, Bryson and Louis Eustasen had a twenty three whole match, Like if that was in the World Golf Classic or in the match play tournament or whatever, people would have been locked in. And somehow, no, I didn't even know, no one cares for some reason in the United States, maybe some people overseas do. There's a more TV. I just

don't know how they overcome it. I think the money aspect has turned more people off than it has turned people on. Like it just it's not the driving force of why people watch golf. I completely agree with that rhyme word for word, uh, And I would say, of course it has had an immense impact because we've seen the PGA Tour structure itself, and the PGA Tour has lost some of its marquee players. But it's the most significant.

But at all professional golf exists for fans, This this first year seems almost inconsequential, not completely, but as you say, this was this was in theory a great event that nobody cared about in our circle anyway. I mean TV is obviously the key because if you had that Bryson match on TV, if you had Camp Smith against Um against Phil Nicholson even Sunday, you know I did, I did watch a lot of hlights and I did read everything that was written it, so I was I was

paying attention. Um. You know, the Durral is of course that people know from so many, so many great championships there on the PGA Tour. It was set up as a real championship test. And you know Cam Smith shooting sixty five in the final round, three shots better than anybody else. I mean, it's just electric to watch that

guy play golf. That was a reminder of it. So if it was on TV in the back drop people would have gotten into it, and it just seems like the biggest miss of all that Live could not find a way to get on any TV platform in the

United States. And even this, uh excuse me, this Fox Sports deal that where they might buy the time would certainly be worthwhile investment because um again, if it's on the grill Room and bandon, people are going to tune into it because you know these players and you care about them and you have some emotional investment in them, and especially in a matchplace scenario, I think it would

have been a great show. So that, to me is the biggest critique of all for a Live is that they just they never found a way to get themselves on TV throughout this whole season and obviously launching as as a beta test, and no one knew it to expect as soon as they signed Dustin um and and surprisingly good initial offering of players, and they kept adding players like it's really from from their perspective, I think that that was the difference maker, was not getting on TV,

and that's still a riddle they're gonna have to solve for a year two. But because that's how you will get the casual fan even pay attention and or no you know that you you exist. So that was really driven home, um, because yeah, I mean we're having we're having lunch on Sunday waiting for the shuttle, and uh, you have college golf on TV, you have uh, you have European Tour, you have PGA Tour. Like in the ecosystem of golf, the one thing that's missing is live

and that still bogs my mind. They couldn't get it done. There may be one significant thing that is missing in addition to uh a TV deal. Golf unique among you know, major professional sports has an element of charm to it, just like the tennis does when it's at Wimbledon in Paris. The Master certainly has a charm to it. The British Open, for sure, does you know? The weekly tour events, especially older established ones do and it is part of the

appeal of the of the whole thing. And even as the golfers have become more athletic, physically, much bigger, there's still been the charm of the little ball, the little niceties to each other and I just you know, I know, golf, you know, is always derided for being this old timey thing that's aged out Uh, but maybe that whole thing really is a major part of everything about it, and and maybe Live is so off the mark there that it can't catch on because people don't want golf but

louder the music or the shotguns starts and all and all the rest. Uh. I have no idea, but that would be I guess on my part that that's a good word for it. I mean Live offers many things,

but charm is not one of them. I mean, the the product is so in your face, the personalities behind it, whether it's Greg Norman, or it's Sergio or Patrick Read or Pat Perez and his wife or you can go on down the list, like it's just a very aggressive set of personalities and um, you know, I'd say Rory has a certain charm about him, right, like there's um

it's but Phil Nicholson does not. Like he's just so brash and and he's he's such a um, he's so polarizing and for whatever reason, Live just attracted those personalities, brooks Kepca, I mean Ian Poulter, Like you've gone down the list. I mean it's a very specific personality type. Um and so summed up by summed up by one quote I'll read from pet Perez, uh, who has struggled the entire Live season. So they asked him about it and he said, I get a lot of grief people

saying I never sew up, so I did today. Uh, so everybody can just shut up. The guy plays one good round of golf and in state of being like, hey, you know, it was great to be in the team format or whatever thanks to my teammate. I mean, that's what he says. It's just so wild and there's so many heels, so many like I just they have leaned into it. And uh, at some point that just you know, I've always said, I like Bryson was very popular slash polarizing in the PGA Tour because there was a lot

of you know, good guys around him. It's good to have a heel amongst a bunny good guys, but like just a bunch of heels is just not that just doesn't work. It's not working for some reason. You know, it's just not working. And uh, I just it's Cam is not totally outspoken, so he's I mean, he's definitely the quietest and and not the the you know, the heel type, but he just doesn't have the personality that already does, so he just doesn't offset those other guys

to me. And just to follow up on what what Alan was saying about Phil raising Phil's name, Well, for thirty years, Phil actually was one of the more charming, if not really actually the most charming figure in golf because for that long run when he was so close and couldn't close it into major and then you know, and then when he started winning majors and contending to majors and not closing us opens and he had his parents there and his kids there and his wife there

in an O Shuck's manner, and then badass Phil emerged, you know suddenly around at um, you know, with the leather coats and the whole thing, and it was a whole hair dial. Yeah, the hair tie and the everything was was different. And uh aviators and you captured this so well in your book that there's been you know, two films, uh and Uh. I was very drawn to old Phil. I have not you know, uh into new film. He's saw he saw a new fil so hard it's it makes you want to run the other way in

my opinion. Um, but you know, Dustin Johnson, he had a certain charm of you know, c ball hit ball. There's a lots of different way. You know, charm is abroad really kind of a morphous kind of word. But you know, you think of VJ. Not a charming person, but there was a certain rugged charm to the fact that he would just stand on the range all day and hit balls and try to figure it out for himself.

You know, that loner quality and uh, this lived to her is so much us against the world that actually the individualism, which is a huge part of the appeal for for me and I think for many is is so far lost. Interesting. Yeah, I mean Dustin is. It's funny because I feel like Dustin, among all the guys who went to live, he's taken the least amount of shrapnel, probably because people do like him, but mostly because he's just been very real about it, like it's great money,

it's kind of fun. I'm wanna do something different. He's not. He's not talking any trash to the tour. He resigned his membership, he didn't sign on any lawsuits, and he's just kind of like, hey man, I'm just having I'm

just having fun making birdies, making millions. What's a big deal, and people have accepted that from him because he has not been in your face about it and he's uh, he just kind of goes with the flow as always, so hey, speaking of people, is Charles Howell even on live like the man is disappeared, I mean truly disappeared, Like I mean we're talking about I think he's like fifteen or something ridiculous in the all time PGA twour winnings like this man was an a t M. I'm

not sure he's alive. Is Charles Howell? Did Charles Howell play in any actual live events? Char You've got my number, give us the call. We want to know hashtag where's Chucky three sticks? I mean, where the hell is? Like that's a relatively big name, right, I mean Charles Howell is like a known name in golf. I haven't heard a damn. I'm not I'm swear I'm not sure he played in a live event. Well, I have proof of life. I saw him a few times. But yeah, okay, it's

funny because he UM. I think early on when right when he signed UM, I said something on one of our podcasts about it's hard to be mad at Charles Howe and then when no one can really be that mad at Charles Howe. He just is. It was very benign, kind of throwaway line when he sent me on Instagram saying thank you so much for the support, and like that's how undersiege these guys are that if you if you, yeah, if you say anything nice about him, they're like even

just sort of neutral, like so grateful. I thought that was really that. That was charming by Charles Howell. But yeah, Charles Howell and Cam tren Gali are two wild signings. I mean, Charles I get, Charles I get, but Cam tren Gali is a wild wild signing. Go ahead, Michael, I'm sorry, No, No, Judge Hendrick, I would say is a loss for the tour, you know, and lost Roger Cup. People are going to a great Roger Cup captain. And he would have been fun. He is a lot of fun.

We've been so fun. And I mean I'm a big fan of Luke Donald too, but he doesn't have the personality of Henrik and in the presence, you know, it's just I thought you had to be European to be the European Cup captain. Well, I mean all these guys from Chicago, yeah, all these guys are pretty Americanized at

this point. But um, that's what I'm saying about the heel part of it, Like we love Sergio, we'd love to hate Sergio and Ian because as they were amongst a bunch of nice European guys, and now they're just a bunch of like a couple of assholes amongst a bunch of assholes. So it's like, yeah, it's like, doesn't work.

I will say, I mean echoing the earlier comments that I think on the whole, if you had to grade Lives debut, I still think it's got to be a B plus or something in that range where they had so many victories and as far as launching themselves and getting players and just the amount of buzz and discussion they've created, it far out strips it's you know, it's

actual impact in the sports world. But um, you know, when I've sometimes I get asked to speak at at things or the book events, and there's always a Q and ATHEI end. So many questions are about live golf, And when I put up the ask Allen every week,

so many questions about live golf. So people are tuned into it, but what they're tuned into is the controversy and the noise, and the macro developments and the sports washing and the and as a business story and as um as a Shakespearean you know, exercise and and and all these big themes, but they're not tuned into is the actual competition. So, I mean they've they've created an insane amount of buzz this year and credit to live. That's what they need to do. Get the name out there,

make a mark in the larger sports world. Um, and they've done a spectacular job at that. But you can't you can't survive forever on that. At some point the competition has to become compelling and people have to be invested in the players, the teams and what's actually happening between the ropes. So for for year one, I think mission accomplished and they probably have to be delighted about where they are, But there are some very serious questions going forward if it's viable as a as a sporting

entity and not just as a conversation piece. Yeah. I mean I put up a tweet yesterday about Pat perezdon is weekly his earnings. I mean it is insane. He played an eight live events basically broke part a couple of times um and made eight million over eight million dollars. And obviously there's some debate about whether the upfront money counts against that or a dozen or whatever. At minimum he made eight million dollars. If he has any upfront money,

let's say it's five million. Just for conversation piece, he played eight events and made thirteen million dollars. In his twenty year PGA Tour career, he made twenty eight million. If I'm Pat Perez, I understand, like I like, there's no I mean, but to your point, Allan, it is like I put that tweet up and it is instantaneous interaction, like and it's relatively split down the mill And I wish I could have a poll underneath of it of like did any of you are that are saying good

for Pat? Which I agree, good for Pat for going to make ten million dollars playing terrible golf, Like did they actually watch it? You know? And that's the conversation that you know, we continue to have is Yes, guys are making a lot of money. Yes, we understand why people are living. Yes, they have made a serious impact on the game of golf. Does anyone care outside of players leaving, does anyone care? And to Alan's A plus, I I would echo that I would give the exact

same gray abuse. Uh. I mean when you think about where live golf was at the time of MOFO, what what was that February Allen? Yeah, okay, So then and then Nicholas did a forum at at the Honda tournament and and uh. Jimmy Roberts was the moderator, and he said, well, Phil's done this, and uh. And then Big Jack said, well, it looks like he'll be going alone in the house kind of applauded or left. And the idea it was it was over. You know, that's what people thought. And

of course it's anything but over. They've got some of the biggest names in golf, they're playing big courses, they've got a capable telecast even though it's on YouTube. And I don't see how you can give it anything other than the A plus in terms of getting it up and running given where they were, and let's not forget about the pandemic that slowed them down for two years.

So this, this whole thing shows the application, you know, the intelligent application of money, just like Augustin National does every year. Every year you'll go back to Augustin nationally done some new thing, and whether you like it or don't like it, it's always done well. And that's you know, the intelligent application of money to a problem. And that's not as easy as its ounds. So I agree, I would actually give it an a plus. But this let but the piece that we're speaking of, can you get

people to care? You can't buy that, You really cannot buy that. Yeah, and I mean lived. They have some very very smart people behind the scenes. You know, they're unheard of for the sports fan. They don't speak publicly but when but they are very sharp, you know, some of them, Michael. I've talked to some of them, and um, some money plus brain power is powerful. Now. Obviously Greg Norman's made some gaffs and whatever, but um, the people behind the scenes are are pretty clever, and I think

that that's part of how they've gotten this far. Norman has been very effective. You know. Norman has made the case of you know, he says short, simple things that may or may not be true, but they're landing. You know, this tour can be additive and people are like, yeah, what's wrong? Why not have more you know it was some competition. Good, So he's been effective. Can we talk about the Butterfield field. Let's talk about the Butterfield because

that was super compelling. Uh, Ryan, these are your people that this this is You've You've built your life caring about things like the Butterfield Bermuda Open. So talk to viewers. People didn't care about the Butterfield. I was into it because,

uh well, I'll just say this. I was at the North Bend Airport and James Power was contending and there's a couple of Irish guys on our trip and they were losing their minds because they know him personally and they know his spat answers, and they were hooting and hollering in like startling the other passengers. They were just watching my laptop because there's no TVs not airport, and it was that was a fun way to do it. So, so tell the listeners why why the Bermuda Open is

your fifth major? I mean those kind of events, especially Bermuda because it's not an opposite field event, even though the field as very much an opposite field field. Wow, that's too many words, but it has none of the top players go there. Um, but Shamus is a great example of the guys I cover and with the thin line between making it and not making it. I mean I have told this story in a tweet many times.

Saw Shamus literally, uh, sixteen months ago. Uh, whenever the Honda has played, maybe eighteen months ago on the on the range at the Honda Monday Qualifier, Mark and I were there, I was kidding. Saw Shamus walked up to him, said, hey, man, how's it going. Yeah, games, okay, I just need to get into some events. And I have a conversation and he said, I am I think I have thirteen events. He had like very low conditional status, and he said, I gotta get to fifteen events. Don't even care if

I missed the cut. I gotta get to fifteen events for it to count as a year towards my pension. Like that's where he was in pro golf. I mean he was like, I'll take a start and missed the cut automatically just so I can get it. I mean that's where he was. Um. I think he was ranked five hundred in the world or around five hundred in the world. Uh. He won at the Barbersol Uh, and he won again this week and he is going to be in the top thirty in the world. He's gonna

go to a second straight Masters. I mean, he couldn't crack an egg, you know, for a long time in his pro career, and something clicked. He changed caddies, he changed win coaches, whatever the reason was. Gained confidence mainly, and that's what I love about. And that's what the PGA Tour offers, uh to me is I've said it a million times. The guy who finished third, Ben Griffin, was working at desk job fourteen months ago. Those are the stories that I think the tour needs to do

a much better job of telling. Uh. But also that's what you You can't create those, those are like actual stories that happened, and that is why I love the butter ball. Someone called it the butter ball on Twitter. So that's what's known as going forward. Well, and Dustin Johnson winning thirty five million dollars and eight events is pretty wild, but it's not gonna change his life. He already had the boats and the mansions and the cars, and his kids, kids, kids were were set for life.

But what Ben Griffin just did is probably it's certainly career changing, possibly life changing, and you buried the lead Monday Q Info, you had Aaron Baddeley, a Monday qualifier who's in contention until the bitter end. Like that would have been epic if you could have done it, because, um tell tell the listeners a little bit about Aaron Baddeley, like you know, you know, if you remember where he won the Australian Open as as an amateur in the late nineties, he was gonna he was gonna be the

next big thing. Um haw. He's had a decent two pretty good PGA tour career, but the last actumber years have been a real struggle. So what do they not know about the Aaron Baddley experience. You're talking about Aaron Badley. Aaron Badley one of the nicest people in the world. Ah. So, first of all, it's so wild the guy. I mean, I have the serious side of it is I have mad respect for a guy who has twenty two million dollars in career earnings, four PG twur wins at any Monday, Okay.

I mean to the fact is he's going to get about ten starts a year no matter what. Uh as being a past champion, he can just wait for those and Aaron is at every Monday. In fact, he went to the Bermuda Monday, got in. It was played a week prior, not the traditional Monday of the week prior. By the time in the field all the withdraws, Aaron would have been into the field by sixteen people. He didn't even have to go to the Monday and most most players would have known that, knowing the history of

the field. But for some reason, Aaron is there. Whenever Aaron is at a Monday, most of his family is there. I don't know why, but they don't believe in haircuts. None of them have had an haircut. There's their entire life. They have nine kids. They roll up in a bus, the battlies get off, they follow him during the playoff, there's baddles all over the place. I mean, this is a great example. At the Barracuda UH, the player can invite your caddy into the UH, into the dining area.

So Marcus like, hey, man, just come in and eat with me. I go in. And this is not an exaggeration. The baddlies are having a foosball turn, like two of the kids versus other two of the kids. Grandma Amp are in there. The wife's in their errands there. It's Saturday. Aaron missed the cut by like ten points, and they still like just jamming away in there. So the battles are a why well, they're not a wild budget, but they are always everywhere. It's pretty wild. This is actually

a great story. One of the three of us should get on the bus with the battles and go for like a cross country trip like that's gonna happen fire Pit Collective dot com at some point in two thousand twenty three. That sounds like an amazing story. Yes, I mean the whole clan, Grandma, grandpa, everybody. Yeah, into all the elves out there from other golf media outlets who monitor this podcast to Steeler ideas, you can't have that one.

We're keeping that one. Yeah, that one's too good. Alex Myers, No, it's not happening. Yeah, don't touch it. Um, it's net need to think that Shamus Powers has played his way, you know, very likely to all four majors this year. Aaron Battle has had many years, whore has played all four majors who would like to be back or and uh, I think these events do help us keep our eye on the prize, which is if you want to be a professional golfer and really be the envy of your peers,

the starting point is playing in all four majors. And uh, Charlie Howell's not going to do that. Henrik Sinson's not going to do that. Dustin Johnson will do it. But you know who knows for how much longer. Brooks Kepko you don't know for how much longer. Um, It's just it's just odd to think the champions Powers will have something that those guys won't well. And also, I mean Shamius Powers is very much in the conversation now for the Writer Cup or less than a year out from

from Rome. Um. If you look at all of his stats, I mean, he's clearly one of the best twelve Europeans right now and you know, two victories in the space of what sixteen seventeen months. So if you can sustain this form, I mean, he's going to be important part of that team which is very much in transition and needs some of these young guys to assert themselves if they're going to be able to handle this very powerhouse

US team. So UM, I guarantee you Luke Donald is very locked in on Jami's powers right now and and really um really excited to see his continued development and that that's a big deal. Alan how locked in or other Ryan and Allen how locked anything? Live is on Harrison Crow the uh the kid who won the Asian Pacific Amateur which gets you know, automatic spot into the into the Masters and and other elite events and had

planned to term pro and now is not. Uh so is he auditioning for a live spot or is or what is he doing? You know, we don't know, but oh no they are because I I think I think I mentioned this previously. You know, I've talked to a couple of college coaches about this, and he says, there's as much, if not more conversation about Live then there's about the PGA tour among the college players because they

know I'm live is keenly aware. A lot of the guys we've signed are old and getting older, and they need to make their own stars, if you will. They need young talent and um, and so these college kids know like, hey, if I have a great year, if I went in cuble A's are when the US Amateur or whatever it is, I'm going to get an offer from Live and as as Ryan has has documented so many times, just because you're a great college player means nothing on the long arduous tour or a trek to

the PGA Tour. Whereas you know, if you can, if you can get in with Live in the Asian Tour, you're you're gonna make a nice living um. And so these young these young players know that. I thought a lot about that as I saw Tyler Strafacci miss by fourteen or something at first stage at you school, and James Piatt is that live at least who knows? You know, Rumors that I've heard is, you know, seven figure you're signing deal. Whether that was against his earnings or whatever,

it doesn't matter. He's making millions of dollars and putting play relatively poor golf. And Tyler is playing poor golf and not making a time. And if you're the US Open champ, if you're the US Amateur champion, and you look at those two examples that are very very recent, those are the last prior to this year. I think those are the last two US Open champions. One is lost like lost in the he's playing a minor league

tour event this week. I mean that is at the bottom of the professional golf barrel and one is flying in private jets and as a multimillionaire. And I get it. I say it all the time. I get it. And even in the best case scenario for the top players, unless they change the you know, PGA Tour, you you are going to go play on the corn Ferry Tour, and you have your choice of playing in Wichita, Kansas.

I always say nothing against which Kansas for a million dollars or playing with Brooks Kapka and Brason de Shambo on their team and making a grand If you fire four eighties, I don't know if you're twenty two years old, if we all go back to the two year old we were, I don't know how that is a tough decision. I think Harrison Crows maybe twenty. I'm not sure, but imagine the pressure he's under right now at age twenty. It should be such a golden time in your life.

But to play these events as an amateur professional and waiting with all this pressure on you, Uh, it's almost more than then then a person could take. And it actually makes you wonder whether whether it's gonna make golf enjoyable for him or not to have to have so much weight on him. Uh so early. I mean, if a kid comes out, if a kid's a great pitching prospect, whatever,

coming out of high school. Uh, there's such a system of development and here it's like this or that really fast and really hard, and I think it'll I think it'll weigh on these kids in a very significant way. That's a great point. And even to extend the conversation further, I'm sure that's people saying, well, James Piatt is playing so bad he's not gonna be on Live next year. That first of all, every contract is different. He may have had a two or three year guarantee. We don't

know that just yet. But even if he does get relegated to the Asian Tour slash in their national series, that's still much better money than you can make on the corn ferry, and it gives you a road back to live and so uh yeah, you're you're far from home. And that's also kind of cool because I would rather I would rather see the world than see you know.

To use your example, Ryan, which dot Kansas like I'd played for three million dollars in qual lumpour or a million dollars, in which I like, to me, that's a great adventure when you're twenty two years old, and um, you know so. And I'll say this as again, is like I don't know James's family financial or Tyler's. It doesn't matter. Let's say they're both like just middle class

people and both their careers flame out. I hope that doesn't happen, but let's just as a hypothetical, James is gonna go build a nice golf course on the or a nice house and the course he grew up with, and go be a club pro or speaker or whatever. And he has X million dollars, assuming he takes care

of his money, he's basically set for life. And because he's gonna get three years out of this minimum, as you said, Alan, like, okay, he doesn't make live next year, he's gonna go play on the Asian Tour for a couple of years, even if he plays poorly, play okay whatever. Tyler is gonna play minor league tour events. And I just again, I get it, I get it, I and I the PGA Tour is gonna lose some top amateurs. There's just no way that some of those kids don't

take it. I think to me, one of the biggest lessons from all of this, and one of the crucial mistakes that Jay Monahan made, is is overvaluing the PGA Tour. Like I think we're sent we're sentimental about the PGA Tour, especially me and Michael and you as well, Ryan. But you know, that's all we've known, that's all we've really covered. It was the big leagues. It was it was all that mattered in our thinking. Um. But I think for a lot of these golfers, you know, it's about making

a living, it's about their future. And the difference between playing a live event in Miami versus a tour event uh in in different parts of Florida, it doesn't feel that much different. You know, there's the majors and there's everything else. And so I don't think that a lot, you know. I think these kids grew up dreaming about playing in the Masters, in the U S Open, and and that's it's still gonna be available to them if

they play well on live. Um. I believe that. So, um, they didn't grow up dreaming about playing the Greater Heartford Open.

So I think I think players are willing to give up the idea of the tour if the circumstances are right for them, and um, whereas that might have been unthinkable before, you know, because we have these we have the NFL versus the USFL analogy and some of these other ones where the other league's never caught on and they disappeared and and it was clearly always just the big time but the most the five most important events in golf for the majors, in the Wryder Cup are

not controlled by the PGA Tour, And so um, if if the live players can still have access to those in some in some manner, um, at least even the thought they might, I think the tour becomes much less attractive. So um to some now there's you're gonna have your loyalists for sure. But um, I think that's been one of the that's been one of the lessons of this year, is that maybe we were kind of overrating the value

of the PGA Tour to some of the players. Alan, what what would you like me to say to people when they asked me of you, is Alan pro or anti live? Um? The answers, yes, that's the answer. Um. I mean, I'm I'm trying I'm trying to both sides this whole thing to death, right like um, because there's people have kind of staked out these hardened positions, and I go back and forth. I'm critical Live and I'm

also supportive of Live. I see, um, you know, I see what they've achieved, and I see the potential for the future, and I think it's quite interesting potentially they can if they can make the right moves, like I think, like like you, especially Michael, uncomfortable with the source of the money, and um, you know, there's a lot of polarizing figures that are part of Live that I'm not exactly rooting for. So um, I I try, much like my my three Woods off the tea, I just try

and play it right down the middle. And you know, it's and I think people who have been confused about my feelings on Live, which I guess is good because I don't want to. I don't I don't want to before against and the same with the tour. I mean, I've been critical of monhand times and some of the tour moves, but I also I think I i've I can see the things that they've changed, and um, I want the tour to to succeed as well, because we need the tour like we don't. We don't want to

badly diminish PG tour. That's not good for any of us. So uh, I'm I'm I'm pro and con PG tour and I'm pro and con live. I guess the alan as you get, as you get deeper into the reporting and the writing of your book, do you think at some point you will evolve to a place where you do have an opinion in the reader would actually know it, or do you think it maybe is incumbent upon you and behooves you to maintain this this sort of neutral

position all through this writing process of the book. Yeah, I think I guess I'm struggling with that a little bit because, Um, I think I think the easiest way to say is I'm critical both sides. That's my version of neutrality. Um. But um, and I can also see that you know, also give credit or credit to due and they've made the right moves. But um, yeah, I mean it's running for a political position we don't know about. Well. I think I think he's writing a really really sensitive,

difficult book. Will Bardwell, I use his line all the time of tweet was will's a great follow if you don't follow on Twitter, he said, live versus the PGA Tour doesn't have to have a good guy. You know, every story doesn't have to have a good guy. It can have two bad guys. And yeah, in some ways

that's more compelling that I guess. To answer your question, Michael, I just don't want I don't want to be obvious because if if if people say, oh, this is an anti Live book or I'm an anti Live reporter, then you close off, um, a lot of potential stories that I'd like to write. Same with the same if I'm if I'm if I'm pro live or you know what I mean. Like once you once you pick sides, then the other side tunes you out. And I don't mean institutionally,

I mean the fans and the readers, um. Like, I think it's better if you know, if people don't really know your your true feelings, but it will probably come out in the book because at that point, um, you know, I've I'll be a little deeper into the process and I can, I can, I can let it go if you will. But part of the problem is I don't really know how I feel just yet, Like because I'm trying to you know, I've talked a lot of them live folks, and I see their point. Talk to a

lot of the tour folks, I see their point. So, UM, I think being flexible in your opinion is a good thing in our jobs. When once you once you once you take a heartened stance, um, then you start tuning out the other information. I mean, that's that's a problem with the modern age, right is is everything is so polarizing, and then you just seek out the information that reinforces your point of view. And that's not my role here, So I'm I'm trying not to be in a bunker. Yeah.

That that is very well said, quick techual. Cool question for Alan, very very well said. Do you think that, um, do you think that sixteen events and sixty players is where this thing is headed for year two? And then beyond year two do you think you could go Do you think both those numbers could go up as well? I think they're committed to fourteen for next year. I think there will be sixty players in that the same They're going to try and hold the field at forty eight.

That's what they've committed to. But they're not gonna say forty guys at every tournament. I mean you saw that. Um, your players will get essentially traded and or demoted sixty on the live roster, but only forty playing per event exactly, so an event correct, still forty eight in the events. But the player movement's gonna be interesting and you're seeing it right now. Like, um, that was a subtext as week in Miami is teams are trying to get locked in for next year, but some of the players are

working both sides the street. Like obviously Taylor Gooch had had a great success with the four Aces and they'd like to have him back. I mean he's he's clearly one of the best thirty or forty players in the world. Even his world ranking says that. But he's getting he's getting inquiries from other captains and they're trying to recruit him, and um, so yeah, there'll be something that could really be an implosion, that could be like super that could

be very compelling. Like you could have some like like if you actually steal I mean not steel or trade for sign whatever, like one of the players. There could be some like true rivalries developed over time between like say I can't I can't say these stupid names out loud without laughing. But like the Nibblix steal somebody and the four Aces are playing. I mean, it's so ridiculous

the names. But like you could you could create some true, true true like uh, you know, hard feelings if you take one or two of their players and then you play in a match, you know later that's been that's sort of part of their plan all along. Like it's all been kumbaya this year because it's live against the world and they all have each other's back, and I think that's genuine. But it's gonna become there's some business decisions are gonna start messing with that, and guys are

gonna start looking out for themselves a little bit. And they want to be on the winning team. They want to be Pat Prez. They they'd love to be the worst player on the winning team. Right, that's a good place to be. Um. You know, some of these teams never even sniffed a podium, and you know they want to get struck. Begging them. I'm begging to live people to change their names, begging it's gonna happen. I can't say out loud niblicks one more time. I can't. I

just it's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. This is this has all been such a beta test, and next year it's all gonna be baked out. They'll be new names, new new merch new logos, different players on different teams, and the players all have much more input, like they had to launch with something, you know, and then players kept coming online and players change teams, and so they never really they never they never really dialed in all

the all the team names. I'm actually i'd never buy anything in any golf tourmer I haven't spent my own money on an item of apparel, probably since my first Masters was an intern. But I sort of have a little regret that I didn't scoop up some of the the live team merchandise because it's it's so funny and and like campy. I should have I should have a few of those hats to wear them around peoplen't even know what it is, but those if you know, you know,

it would have been quite funny. But I never can. Someone remind me. Hope my wife listens to all of our podcast, but hopefully she doesn't listen this far in I'm supposed to buy a coffee cup at every place that I visit for her, and I forgot Benon Dude. So when we get off, please remind me to get online and buy a Bannon Dude's coffee mug and send it home and pretend like I bought it at the course and head it chipped, and then we'll just keep it between us and the ten people that listen to

this podcast. Is four Crushers? Is that one of the teams. There are the Crushers, and there are the four races, but there are not four Crushers. I only say this because I'm looking on eBay right now. For seven dollars and cents, it says here you can buy a Crusher's team logo. Cool unique T shirt. Alright, next podcast, mixed podcast, We're going to buy We're buying live merch for each

other and have to wear what we send each other. Okay, I'm gonna send you my favorite team merch and then you send me, and we're all going to have a team and we'll break down the niblicks and the and the Crushers and the whatever. The Crushers seem to be

the only people available on eBay. I kind of regret not like just leaning into the bit and going to every press conference and just hammering the players like do you think that this course sets up well for the Nibletis And just just like question after question like it would have been it would have been a great bit. But Michael and Ryan, you just came back from Bannon Dunes for the first time without a coffee mug. But a lot of other thoughts. And um, let's talk about Bandon.

I've been blessed to go there now probably ten or eleven times. And um, for two rookies, what did you think of abandoned dudes? I will go first. It was I mean, it's unreal, um, and golf to me for for me, and I appreciate that people want to play very difficult golf courses and you can play these courses very difficult, and we played it in very ideal weather conditions, so it made it easier. I love the playability of

all the courses. I can take my buddies and we can play the right teas who is going to shoot a hundred and we don't have to look for golf balls all day and he's not gonna be miserable. The vibe is great, and I know we're gonna get to our rankings. But my favorite part, my favorite course was the part of three course. It's like a course I could have in my backyard and play every single day, Like I love it. I loved it. I could. You could go out and drink some beers, play six sms,

play it difficult, play it easy. It's a great course. It requires all the shots. It's laid back. I mean, it was unreal. The place is unreal. I love the I love the whole experience applying those courses. Uh, I am so not interested in resort golf. When that guy with the knickers comes running up to you and grabbing the clubs from you because God forbid you should carry your own This place is so not like that. You

have the feeling that's expensive and complicated. Actually, if you get online and start looking at prices, you know, if you're willing to play in you know, in cooler weather or chance your weather, it's not expensive. You can carry your own bag, you can stay at a motel down the street, you can get a cheat time. Um, it's loaded with charm, which you can't believe they could pull that off with all the many holes that they have their Uh. With the putting course and the part three

and the I guess it's five eighteen whole courses. Um, the quality of the turf is outstanding to be that near the ocean. Um in the United States, it's it's it's incredible. I've been fortunate enough to play a lot of golf as you have, Allen. We played a lot of great golf together in Scotland and in the UK. It's very similar to that experience. And um, it's not pretentious.

Uh I think it's brilliant. What what what Mike Kaiser and in our for me if people have done there and it's inspiring, and I would really urge people that there's a lot of great places to go in this game. But I know we have people who are really devoted, uh to the game. And just for my own example, I was resistant, and uh I am sales resistant by nature, and uh I was overwhelmed by just the joy of

the golf experience there. Yeah, that's beautifully sad. You know how I always say it's hard to follow up people. Thank god I went first. You know, like, did you hear that? Fucking I've only said f ford one time? Did you hear that? Did you hear that. I mean, thank god I went first. Like this guy, I was just like, yeah, it's great. I was like, I like the part three because I can smoke pot on it, and he just went into this wonderful soliloquy of how

wonderful it was. I mean, Jesus, thank god I went first in that scenario. Indeed, yeah, it is special. I mean, I'm sure both of you guys have people hit you up. And because I have been lucky to travel a lot of places and they ask where Buddy's trip, where should I go, It's like it's it's not even close. Obviously, I live in the Pebble Beach area, and uh, these courses are very dear to me. But it's a completely

different experience. And if you don't have access to the private clubs here, you know, you have Pebble Beach Golf Links and you have Spyglass Hill, and then it's a pretty steep fall off for your third course. I guess possit Tampa if you want to drive an hour, but you know, pine Hurst has is loaded with charm and I love Tobacco Road if you willing to drive twenty minutes, But um, I mean the four courses at Bannon and Old Mac is is more polarizing. We don't even play

it on this trips. You guys didn't see it, but the top four for most of us are just so incredibly good and the logistics are so easy. Like we had, you know, we had these Irish guys who were abandoned for the first time, which is a hell of a long trip. And credit to um to Marty Carr for making the trip killing no doubt had been there before, but as Marty's first time, and you know he runs a travel business car golf over over An Ireland in

the UK, and so he's seen it all. And you know, Marty was just completely blown away, like like like especially you Michael and and and Ryan, and it was just, um, there's the ease of it all because we were saying, like, okay, we go to south If we go to Southwest Ireland to play a tournament like this, I mean, you know, from Waterville to tow the Hinges in Valley Bunny and it's it's two hours and you probably have to sleep

somewhere else that night. And um, so you know, when you go on down the list of all the great destinations in the world, there's nothing like Bandon from the quality, the quantity, and the ease and and then every every detail you know, like the Saturday night where it sitting at the fire pit in these you know, these hundred foot tall trees and um, if you if someone's hungry, you order pizza, they bring a pizza, and you around a beer, they'll bring a beer. And it's just everything

is um. It is just is so well thought out and so service oriented without as you say, Michael, being over the top. So it is. It is really special. And I would just add to to Ryan's point, and I know people won't do it. I'm suggesting I would actually really do it. Just play from the teas that are gonna They're going to make the course playable and fun for you, where you can find your golf ball and the hole is too tight for you to hit driver and in the goals to find your book for

that one hole. Just move up at tea and others. Don't worry about all these U. SJ. Regulations or whatever else. I think Bandoned think one other time I went, I found I found that the Doe course too difficult, and I think it was poor weather and the rest this year we played it very short. It was it was very playable. Um. But golf is supposed to have pleasure to our lives and a big starting point for that is playing from the right tea for that hole, uh,

in that wind condition. So go you know to agree that people now golf rs are rules followers, and I know it's hard for people to do what I'm suggesting, but I really do mean, well, we we play the green teas, so that that's you know, sixty two six yards um, maybe sixty four um my pack, but that that's a nice number. And we didn't have a lot of wind. You know, we used to we used to play. So we're all there for the Uncle Tony Invitational. Shout out to Imaginella, who's been doing it for close to

a decade now and it runs so efficiently. He's got it really dialed in, and he's already planning the two thousand, twenty four Uncle Tony Invitational. Not Evenson has already planned like it. The amount of care he puts into it is remarkable and um. But yeah, so there's a lot of excellent golfers who are part of that crew, and we could play the blacks um and those courses would be a lot harder, but it wouldn't be as much fun.

And you abandoned it gives it takes away. I mean you can make birdies out there for sure, especially you know, we used to play in in July when there's a lot windier and and the greens were plenty. You know, when you you're playing, you're playing the fifth hole at Bandon Dunes and the twin on our wind. I mean it's like driver three wood and you gotta thread it through those dunes. I mean, um, that's that's a big gask. And so you know you're right, Michael. Like part of

its charm, is it they the courses don't beat you up. Um, now, you hit a bad shot, you can be severely punished, but that's also part of what the game's about. But you can score and um yeah, and that that's important because you don't want to. It's hard to get there. I mean it is, no matter where you're coming from. And you guys coming from Philly, coming from from you know, essentially Chicago Airport. I mean those are those are tough

travel days. But uh so you don't want to get there and just get punched in the nose over and over like you want to you want to hit some shots and you want to feel like you can play the golf course. And I think from the green teas that that's always the case. Right, quick question, right what what part five? Was it when you hit driver for iron whole high at the at the first course? Was that nine? No? No, that was sixteen on Trails up Hill? Yeah, big power, big power. Yeah. I thought you were in

a tiny little bunker shot. Oh that that bunker shot was Yeah, you gotta made what did you not hit that ball hole high? That foreign? Yeah, but in a bunker and then I had a little tight little thing. Let's talk about let's do a whole pot on that whole because that was pretty good. Yeah, it just drifted left on the wind. He was in the he was pin high, Michael, but that was it was like ten ft and then and then and then he got up and down out of the trap. Yeah for a four. Yeah,

hited to it like a foot and a half. I remember, I remember it. Ryan, even Iran. Yeah, we played together the first D eight Trails and Ryan and his partner killing no doubt, who's uh, this it's just absolutely from du just wonderfully insane very successful in as a maker of medical devices. But you put on the golf course and he's just he's a little terrier, and he's just full of life and energy and really fun to play with and a very I'd like to publicly apologize for

the for the letdown on the final day. I played some of the best golf I've played in my adult life the first three days, and probably one of the worst rounds of my adult life the last round on the last hole at two sixty out and a part five with a shot. All I had to do was make a regular part in a par five and we are in the playoff, and I fanned a three would so far right that my caddy, who was very, very good,

was like, there's no trouble on this whole I found. Yeah, that's how bad my three would was in the last Yeah, that's the eighteenth that abandoned dunes. And yeah, you just got played on the left side, right, And you'll know that in better next time. But what if all were those other guys on when we were coming up eighteen and they were yelling at each other, like the group on the green and the group they were they were at the preserve. Yeah, that was a funny moment. So

we were we were playing eighteen. Michael is my partner and um and as you're as those have been abandoned, No, what separates you from the preserves about a hundred and fifty yard wide gulf, you know, of course essentially, and there was there was clearly a big buddy's trip playing the preserve and either I think there were six or eight sims in each group as we played, and they were on they were on consecutive holes, and they started shouting each other, um, and the guys played all the

way back, you know, and they were so heated because I guess one of the groups wasn't playing the correct tease. But they were going back and forth and back with and it was like there was no like levity in their voices. They were serious, but it was so loud it was disturbing us. So finally I showered across the divide.

I was like, guys, have fun, and one of the dude said thank you, like they just needed to hear it, like it just snapped him back into like that was the loudest argument on in golf course I've ever seen it. Think some really urban munis where guys will go at it, but later in the round I didn't. I couldn't hear, but I couldn't hear exactly what they were saying, but

you could tell that they were heated. You guys were close enough that you could hear words, but later in the round they were like yelling, you know, drunk and fun. So whatever you said, Alan was like, I'm not taking all the credit. They just came to their senses. But it was really fun to watch you and Killing Ryan because we played that first day at Trails and you guys played your butts off and so yeah, I mean, you came up one shot short, but it's just fun

to be in the mix. And it really I've been there. I said this to my to Mark. I was like, I never thought like it was fun to feel disappointed, if that makes sense. Like I didn't think I cared, and I was like I was genuinely piste off for a minute and like you know, and it's like meaningless and then obviously it's meaningless, but like it was felt

good to be disap pointed, if that made sense. I just want to say this because I talked to Killing about this, because I've had a couple of times where we were we had not Michael, another partner, we had a chance to win, to win the Uncle Tony. And we do welcome the U T I jokes, um, because those are the initials. And we came. You know, we lost the playoff. We we finished one shot out of

a playoff another time. And like the nerves you feel on those closing holes, the adrenaline, it's almost impossible to replicate that in adult life. I means how I used to feel like playing high school basketball. But you know that just that incredible intensity and wanting it so much and having to control all the the flood of uh different substances are released by your body, the serotonin, the testosterone, the adrenaline and have to execute shots and not wanting

to let your partner down. And I mean, yes, beyond our little group, nobody really cares. But the rest of us care so deeply. And that's why it's so great about golf, as you can actually have that feeling like and I can play pick up basketball at the y m c A. And you're not gonna have that adrenaline and um, you know, maybe if you if you're a stockbroker and you're betting your mortgage on something you you'll have that if you're a degenerate gambler who's got a

hundred thousand dollars in the super Bowl. Maybe, but um, it's really hard to to buy that feeling as as an adult out of organized sports. And um, that's one of the things that makes golf so great is you can get so lost in it that it means the world to you for for and um, it's really one of the pleasures of that of that tournament. And in tournament you play with your friends. All right, can we do what you want to do? Just a top and

a bottom? No? No, yeah, So just to reiterate for the purpose of this, you guys didn't didn't get to see old McDonald, So, um, do your top five, Just do your top four. We know you both love the Preserve the part three your course, like given, everyone loves the Preserve, but it's slightly different. So we're gonna say the Preserve is one of the greatest experiences in golf.

But just give us one through four on the other could I just offer one thing the way I'm looking at this and if you guys, you guys, look at it anyway you wish. I'm saying, if you had one day to play one course all day and you could only choose one, which would it be. That's the definition, Sean. You've been going in. Okay, I'm taking Sheep's Ranch first, the Part three course, second, Bandon Dunes, the original course, third, Specific Dunes, fourth Bandon Trails. Five. It's crazy. It's called

Bandon Trails five. That's the core crunch of course. It's one of the most beautiful courses in the world period. And I've had a great fortune played many, many, many great beautiful courses. But that's that's that's something in my five. I am going see Branch first, by a long shot, By a long shot. They're all great. I'm just saying, like, clearly for me, number one of the long courses, the preservist, the one I would say is one if I if I had to rank it in there, um Bandon, Bandon Trails,

Bandon Do, and Pacific is last. For me. It was wonderful, it's great, there's no complaints about it's just not It's just my last. And she branched again. Because you could play with anyone, you could play. You could take will Crop out there, who shot sixty four, and you could play the back tis, he could play the back teas, you could play the forward tease. You could have some sort of match. You could take your guy who shoots a hundred out there and not be looking for balls

all day. There's no bunkers. It still has some difficulty to it despite being wide open. It's not like, of course, you can just go out and fire seventy every time. You can make it hard. If there's elements, it's hard. I mean it's all of them that we played work great. That for me. She Branch was above as it can be. It's my clear number one. So so Ryan, if you could, you could go for a day. You'd rather play a sheep's ranch all day long than the Part three all

day long. No, no, no, I'm alan put a asteri parte. That's fine. There's no rules to this, just as a side not I will not name names. But on the Part three course, we were playing eight sums and one of the players in the other foursome we're playing a

four person scramble. One of the persons, one of the people in the other foursome offered some performance in Hampton Gummies that was anti performance and dancing, and I've never seen such good players such terrible shots when it was a scratch Goloffer who had three shanks dead shanks in a row. I mean, it's one of the challenges. One of the challenges of the t I is you have to it's gummy management. Um yeah, I mean, you gotta

really know what you're doing. On the last day killing O dubbed My part was like, you know, do I have another drink? Do I have less drinks? Do I drink less? Do I not drink enough? You know, it's like it's a it's a dicey bell curve. I would say for me, Bannon Dunes is number one. I just think the flow of that golf course is so wonderful. There's not a hole in there. I really don't love, even though the ones that kick my butt. Number two, I'm gonna say Trails. I think it's the most wondrous

routing on the planet. It just you start in the dunes, then you're in the meadows, then you're you're in the forest, and then you're on this giant sand hill, and then you're back in you're back in the forest, and then you're in the dunes. You know, there's like I don't like the first hole. I don't really like the fourteenth hole,

but um, I think the whole experiences is pretty magical. Um, then I would do sheep, and then I would do pack, which is amazing because Specific Dunes is in a lot of the top twenty or thirties and and all the one top one hundred rankings. I mean, it is a phenomenal golf course and there's so many great holes, but it, um,

it just doesn't move me the same way. And I feel like for those who have been lucky enough to play it and they know, like incredible, that's you're you're playing along the ocean and there's that giant dude on your right. Once you make a right turn, you leave that hole. I think the finishes is a little underwhelming and so um. And in the wind it's a total bit so um to the point where it can it can really beat you up more than the others. I think the others are more playable in the wind. So

it's crazy. Think Pacific Dunes, which is one of the greatest golf course in the planet, somehow its number four in any ranking. But that's just that's just how I feel, And I mean that I love the Preserve as much as you guys do. But if I, if I had one day abandoned, I would want to play play the big courses. So reluctantly I'll put that fifth in this little ranking, but at the same time, I'd be happy

to play that the rest of my life. And and so it's, um, it's quite And you know, next time, Michael, you need to play all Matt because you would appreciate it. It's kind of funky and I think you'd probably like it then most people do. And that finishes phenomenal. And the third hole you hitting over this dude with that famous tree, Like, well, if you put all Mac in any city in America, players would be they would be beside themselves with how great it is. So it's just

it's tough company, man, it really is. But oh yeah, now Abandoned Dunes. What a place. And it's neat to that that camaraderie that we all felt and that that sense of adventure. I mean, it's like we we've talked about this many times as a podcast, but golf is just so special. You can't have that experience in any other sport. You just can't. And we're lucky that it's all part of our lives in such a big way. Agreed, Well, should we release should we release the listeners? I think

it's probably that time. Um, but yeah, it's it's another another big week in golf and for the Fire Drill podcasts. Any parting thoughts where we go? I only said the F word one time today, so all you people, let's say I swear too much. F No, I'm just kidding. Uh So, Michael and I had this conversation and it was like, you know, everyone, you don't want to lose who you are, so I do swear. I'll try to limit it to twenty five efforts per podcast going forward.

You gotta be you Ryan. But you know, at the same time, I think Michael, I heard from some of our our Twitter followers and our our listeners, like, um, it has to be judicious in its use. You know, it loses its punch if you use it too much. So I think I mean you hung out with me out. I use it repeatedly as a lack of my known vocabulary and fils in everything. You can use it as a verb. But now, ma, just just be yourself, right and that's all we go. No, I'm just kidding. On

that note, we're gonna close this Fire Drill Podcast. Thank you for listening. We appreciate you out there and um wherever you may be, and we will be back at it on Sunday nights um per usual again next week, but special circumstances this time. So I'm alan ship knuck. That was Ryan French and Michael Bamberger. Uh until we do this again. Thanks for listening. A bed big played to win, made a fortune with my ship game. I

run the table, never thought I could fall. Then the winter time hit me like a cannon ball, and now I can't shake this losing the street. Every road I take is a dead end stream. I got thoughts in my head, can't get trying not to think what I'm thinking about that got thoughts in my head, can't get him out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about a