Fire Drill 046: Down the Middle with James Hahn

who it's allocated towards. I got thoughts in my head, can't get John nothing. Well, I'm thinking about thoughts in my head, can't get them out, and not to think well, I'm thinking about Hello. This is Alan Schipknuck back for another Fire Drill podcast. We have a very intriguing guest today, but before we get to him, a quick word of thanks to our sponsors, doing making these podcasts, doing journalism

in general, takes to resources. Were very grateful for those who help us the fire Pit Collective keep the lights on, So thank you too. Part points the most interesting golf scoring app there is. You've heard us talk about it before. Just makes the game a little different, a little more fun, awesome for families, buddies, trips um or if you just want to make you know, shake things up and make a little bit different, go to the app store and download part Points you will not regret it. And a

Dormy Workshop. They make beautiful handcrafted leather goods. If you go to fire Pit Collective dot com and you click on the pitch shop that where we sell all our our logo and stuff, there's there's some really neat collaborations between us and Dormy, and check out Dormy's own website. They have all kinds of things that you might enjoy and will improve your life in some small way, So check it out now. To our guest today, PGA tour veteran James Hahn M James, thanks for doing this. Yeah,

thanks for having me. We're gonna, you know, talk about some interesting topics and looking forward to the fireworks. I think we're just gonna talk about cal golf. But okay, sure, yeah, sure talked me into it. Uh well, all right, so James, for most of your career, you've been known by your slightly quirky biography. You know, former shoe salesman, and then you're known as a guy who's winning tournaments on big

time courses Riviera and Quail Hollow. And you know, you've been out there a decade now and um, this year you've morphed into a unicorn. You are the rare PGA Tour player who's publicly supportive of Live and you've you staked out some some cutting edge positions on Twitter. So walking me through this evolution, I mean, obviously these these um, the Premier Golf League and then the Saudi Golf League,

then Live Golf. The stuff has been shocking around for a while and um, but very quickly people had to choose sides. So at what point did you did you realize you wanted to try and be either a peacemaker or at least a voice of reason in the professional golf world. Yeah, that's a great question. So, um, you know, I I do have a lot of friends that play on the Live Tour. I have a lot of friends that play on the PGA Tour. I have friends that

are supportive of both. I have friends that you know, hate the Live Tour, and I have you know, friends that love both tours. And so for me, um, how I got into. This was basically uh, you know the pot calling the kettle black or something along those lines. Is that it was so one sided, right that as soon as the lid came out and people were deflecting and going to the that tour, that we were throwing

these guys under the bus. We were calling them names, um, just saying everything that we can't have people uh support their views of how they see the live tour, right. And so for us as a player, as a person that's inside the bubble, you know, it was another player who decided to go to another tour for a better

opportunity in their eyes financially, right, Um. And so you know, we can go through all the different narratives of you know, you know people saying, you know, if he, if so and so said that they were leaving for the money, I would respect him a lot more, you know, things

like that and so, um. You know, and then for me as a as a player, like you know, I've more or less considered, you know, what my number would be if I decided to to go to live or like, you know, everyone has a number, you know, we're in the locker room, it's like, well, what's your number, what's your number? You know everyone's got a number, right, and what's your number? Some people have a number so big that it's just unreasonable, right, umber, give us a number.

I can't. I can't tell you why number it's it's you know, it's definitely in the millions, right, But um, for me, it's it's what am I giving up? Right? So I'm you know on that topic, you know, I would like to play the Champions Tour. I'd like to play further along in my career as long as I can. Um. And so right now, it seems like you either have to pick one tour or the other. Um, I feel like, you know, after the lawsuit next year, who knows what

what can happen? You know, can someone play both tours? And so I'm sure we'll talk about that more in depth, uh the next time. I've always felt like that, And you know, I've been to a handful to live events and of course I've been too many PG Tour events. And I feel like that's the player's dream, right is you could keep your your tour membership, you could play your favorite events, and you could cherry pick some of

the live tournaments. UM like that, that is what everyone would would love to have, no matter what they say publicly, right, am I correct in that thinking absolutely. I mean it's so that that's another you know thing of um. You know, I'm glad you brought it up. Of uh. For example, Patrick Reid playing in all these events, and everyone's saying, you know, I thought they wanted to play less events. I thought they wanted to play less. You know, that was one of the reasons to spend more time with

the family. And you know, I understand that, but you could you know. The the other side of it is there's a lot of weeks throughout the year that we play golf and that we enjoy playing and we love competing, right, and so four teen tournaments to work only fourteen weeks out of the year, I feel like might not be enough. You know. Some of these guys love to compete and

they missed the competition. Um. But to be obligated to play, you know, thirty events a year, you know, if you're trying to play both tours, um, I feel like it is unreasonable. And so um, you know, everyone's saying, you know, play less golf tournaments and yeah, you know, we average like tournaments. Yeah, I'm fourteen tournaments is less than twenty five.

But guess what, so is fifteen? So it's sixteen, so seventeen you know, so it's like every one of these tournaments that they add is still under the average that they would have had in the past few years and the years going going forward. Yeah. Well, and I mean Live has been very clear to say if you if you join us, you have to play all our tournaments, but we don't care what you do in the other weeks.

You can play anywhere you want. I mean, they're they're trying to make it clear that their players have that freedom to go to the European Tour, go to the

pg Tour, whatever they can fin angle. So yeah, I mean even even tiger Jack and their prime when they played limited schedules to try and be competitively hungry, I mean they were playing seventeen, eighteen, nine, fourteen is that's probably not enough to really be sharp, so I think, and it's it's also very ironic that you know, uh, we're calling out to Live players and well now they're you know, employees, they have to play these fourteen events.

Well guess what the PGA Tour rolled out here? Uh, I think it goes into effect the season is that in order for someone to um be eligible for the pit money is that they are obligated to play in twenty events this season, right, which includes the majors, the playoffs, elevated events. And so it's almost like the PGA Tour saying, oh, fourteen events, will will one up yea, and we'll go

twenty events. And so to me, it's like, you know, it's very hypocritical for us to call out live players for doing this when now we are almost doing the exact same thing. And so that's where I feel like the narrative is kind of shifted. It's like, well, you know, before Rory was saying, um, you know about the world

ranking points. You know, if they decided to leave, so they shouldn't get any world ranking points, this and that he's so one sided, and then two months later he's saying, well, if Dustin Johnson's ranked over one in the world, then it's not a true reflection of how good of a golfer he is, and therefore the world ranking system is

not fair. Yeah, I'm curious how much blowback have you gotten from your colleagues or even some of the minders and Pontovidra Beach for for your public statements that are supportive of Live. Yeah, the people that get paychecks from the PGA Tour Partovidra for the most part, you know, they understand that I have a voice, that I have my own views that they might not necessarily agree on, and it's uh, you know, they're very respectful of it.

You know, they listen, but they also questioned, like, well, you know, what are some of the things that we can do differently to better the PGA tour, right, And so now they're rolling out with all these things incentives for us to play on PGA Tour um as far

as players, caddies, club reps, fans. I can't tell you how many people in person have come up to me and said, you know, thank you for finally saying what people want to say but they might not necessarily have the platform or have the courage to say, because there is a lot of backlash for that. I'm getting just for not really being in supportive Live but not against Live. Right. It's almost like, if you're not against Live, then your four live, and if your four lived, that means you're

against the PGA Tour. It's like connecting the dots, right and so uh, it's it's so it's gotten so political at this point that you either have to pick a side between left and right, and if you're in the middle, then you're wrong altogether. Right. Um. So I feel like, you know, I'd hate for us to live in a world where we're so divided between Live and PGA Tour, and it just ruins the game because it's ruining politics,

it's ruining families, it's ruined friendships. Um. I'd like to see a world where they possibly you know, get together and co exist. But I feel like the anti Live fans and golfers are against that idea. Yes, well you're an idealist, James Irish, but it's hard, hard, it's hard to maintain that innocence. Uh. But at the same time, this podcast is really an outgrowth of, you know, of some Twitter exchanges we had in the last few days, and you did brand me anti Live, which I don't

think it's quite accurate. You know, I've tried to be very much down the middle, and whenever I get I get it from both sides. You're a pg tors schill or you're a Live hater like I kind of it's almost fifty fifty. I think people calling me, um, you know, calling me out on both sides, which I think tells me I'm probably doing my job somewhat of you know. I mean, like the folks that live golf have told me to my face, like thank you for your coverage.

You know, we appreciate you have an open mind and being fair. So I'm like, jeez, maybe I'm being too soft on them, but yeah, so, but you're right if if you if you try and play it down the middle, then everyone's mad at you. It's almost easier to just stick pick aside and stand on the tops and shout, which is what a lot of obviously other people in the golf media are doing. But I'm trying to avoid that and bring a little subtlety to the conversation. But it can get lost, and I would and I do

respect that you do play down the middle. You're getting it from both sides, which pretty much means that you're doing it the right way. I mean, I remember, you know, even a few months back that you know, even talking about live or promoting live, or even showing anything good about live was a no no, right like it was you know, the PGA Tour and only the PGA Tour. And if you talk about the live tour in a

in a good way, then you're against us. You're not You're not in the boys club, right, And so how things have changed is like when brooks Keptka just won this last week. You know, you see journalists and reporters congratulating, books kept going on another win on you know, uh, you know is winless, drought and all this stuff. You know, it's the it's changing to where, um, it's normalizing the live tour in the golf ecosystem. And so before it,

you know, I'd like to compare things. I like a lot of like analogies and stuff, but it's almost like um, Tesla when they first came out, Right when Tesla first came out, everyone's like, oh, they're not gonna you know, they're they're not gonna be successful. Even three or four I remember having a conversation with my financial advisor. I said, Hey, what do you think about adding Tesla to my portfolio? And he's like, Oh, they're gonna go under in the

next few years. I would would never recommend investing in Tesla and this and that. Now it's normal to where it's kind of cool to have a tesla like, let's be honest, right, um, And so I feel like we're kind of in the beginning stages of that where you know,

live golf it's live versus PGA Tour. But to three five years down the road, we could actually be an environment where you know, it's kind of cool to watch both on TV well, so that the critics would of Live golf with saying that normalizing is the problem, that that is the entire reason that this exists, is you know, Saturday being government trying to normalize its relationships with the Western world, and that is the ultimate goal of sports washing.

And so you know, people have I get this a lot. You know, you shouldn't even report on it, You shouldn't even talk about it because you're normalizing it. And it's a valid critique given you know, who's providing the money. You know. My rebuttal is it's just one of the biggest stories in golf this century. And in my position, I can't ignore it. There's just too much at stake here for the game, and um, it's just too big

a story. But um, you know that what is what is what would be your abuttle to that that even by talking about live and saying, you know, I think it has some merit that that you're serving as an agent of propaganda for Saudi Arabia. That's a great question. That's something that I've been thinking about and I kind of knew you were gonna ask the question. Um, it's it is a big issue. You know, I'm not going

to deny it. You know, the human rights UM problems that they have in Saudi Arabia, if there is any chance that the the government, you know, the people that are UM, the Saudi Golf Fund right that is sponsoring the lift or putting money into the lift UM, if that has any influence on how they proceed as a country and make changes, change being able to change their human Rights UM regulations in their country, if that has any positive influence for their country, on whether or not.

You know, they've invested billions of dollars into this live golf and you know, if if something bad happens, you know, I'm sure the first thing that goes through their own mind is not thinking like, oh, you know, I wonder how the our live golf fans are going to handle this, are going to take this? You know, we need to make a really good decision here because we can't lose

our fan base. But if there's any like of even a one percent of them even considering that, then could you say that live golf may or may not have a positive influence on the human rights in Saudi Arabia? Does that make any sense? I have a hard time with my words, but if yeah, you know it does. I mean from from the standpoint the people who say, well this, uh, you know live, What if if MBS wakes up tomorrow he doesn't want to waste more money on golf and Live will just blow away like tumbleweed?

And my rebuttal is that so? I've you know, the guys who run the public investment funds at Arabia are probably the most powerful people on the planet who are not heads of state. And their top two guys have been at every live event. It's his excellency Yasir al

Ramayan and then his deputy, this guy named Magic. And they play in the pro ams and they zip around in their cart and they'll play a couple of holes of dust, and they'll play a couple holes of phil, a couple holes of brights, and like they're having the greatest time of their life. And they're on the first team and they're tapping up the players and you can see the joy this has brought UM to be in this this inner circle and to get this acceptance UM.

And who knows what quiet conversations are happening, whether it's with former President Trump or it's just captains of industry who come out and play in the pro am. And so they have bought access to the Western world in a way that they've always craved. And it's hard to put a price tag on that, but it has tremendous value. And on interpersonal level, you know, every Tuesday night at the tournaments, they host a party um you know UH, and the players come and they're drinking two thousand UM

Bordeaus and they're having a great time. And these guys are the center of it all. And so now as they go out into the world as these representatives of the Saud Arabian government like, they have been exposed to a lot of UH culture in the United States, in England, at the Centurion Club, wherever they've they've gone, and they've been the toast of the town. And so I think in that regard, those two men who run the p IF could have, I could see where lives affected. They're thinking,

and they don't want this party to end. They don't want they don't want the Public Investment Fund or the government to do something so bad that all of a sudden they're so toxic. They can't be on the first tea anymore, and they can't play with Trump at at bad Minister, and they can't do all these things that they're they're enjoying. And so um, again, these guys hold all the cards of global finances and so to see

how much joy live golf has brought them. Um, I really think that what you're saying there there is some mer they're just on interpersonal level now, Um, you know,

I don't. Also, I also feel like it goes both ways, right, And so not only have they bought into our Western world in our way of thinking, but we've also infiltrated you know, their inner circle, right, Michaelson has an opportunity to talk to his excellency on a weekly basis if you wanted to on a daily basis, right, Like we've we've gone into you know, their men's club, right, And

so um for me, I'm I'm forty one years old. Uh, And I grew up listening to a lot of hip hop and rap growing up, right, and so one of the things that I still remember to this day was, Uh, there was a clip of Tupop Tupac. He's a rapper back in the days. A lot of the young kids won't remember him, but this dude was like everybody knows. I don't know. I mean the younger kids these days, you know, they still play it on the radio. But um, he was like way before his time. But anyways, they

asked him. I believe it was when uh, you know, Bush Senior was in office and they had asked him, you know, if Bush invited you to the White House, would you go? Right? And in the past few years, uh, you know, in the Trump era that you know, a lot of athletes were asked to go to the White House, and as you know that all of them decided not to go to the White House. You know. And for me, you know, I always go back to this Tupac quote. He goes, why wouldn't I go to the go to

the White House? He goes, I have an opportunity to talk to the man in charts, to talk to the president and tell him the problems of the inner city and all the problems that I have, Um, that are you know in this world that he has an opportunity to change. He's well, so why wouldn't I want a

one on one conversation with the man? Right? And so for our athletes to turn down the opportunity to talk to Trump and you know, not to get political, um, but if there's even an opportunity to have him think about some of the things that he's doing and some of the things that he will do in the future, I feel like goes the same way with his excellency in Saudi Arabia. We have an opportunity to you know,

possibly help him make the right decisions going forward. You know, it's like the movie Inception, Like we're in it right now, you know, in a dream and a dream and a dream and like we're in it and we're so close. I mean, how awesome would it be if ten years from now, right, the human rights gets better? And you know, and this this is me just you know, being very optimists.

Right ten years from now the human I was getting better, Um, just from on a scale between like um, you know, women's rights to uh just everything you know, I don't want to name too many, too many things, but um, and for them to change, and then asking him ten years from now saying you know what changed your mind and him saying possibly. You know, I had to played a golf round with Dustin Johnson and he bothered by it, and you know, I feel like I needed to do

something like that would be pretty cool. Al Right. I don't know if that's going to happen, but the fact that there's even an opportunity for that to happen, I feel like, you know, there's a good I think, you know, the risk outways reward. I mean, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean it's funny to imagine Phil Nicholson setting the global financial markets during the pro am at auring the ear of his excellency, but Ian I wouldn't put it past Phil for sure. And yeah, I mean again it's

it's a very philosophical question. I mean, could sport be an agent of change? I think most people would say yes, um, And uh, you know I did. I did a big

story on Messiage Eerie. He was the GM for the still Is of the Raptors, and you know, he founded this thing called Giants of Africa and it was he's he's brought hundreds and hundreds of kids over to play a college basketball from from the continent of Africa, and some of them have gone on play pro ball, many of have gotten into executive positions and done great things in their lives have nothing to do with with basketball.

And you know that that's that's he's one NBA title as a GM, but that that organization means more to him than anything, and it really has affected the trickled out effect from how all these these kids lives of change and what it's done for their families when it's done for their own kids, and it's very powerful. And of course there's many other examples, whether it's youth on coorus or it's the first tea. I mean, I think I think generally we accept that sports can be an

agent of change. So, um, the question is it's kind of place like how to your radio evolved through sport? I mean, it's an unknown and I think you have to be a little bit of a dreamer too at the current moment, but it's you just have to chip away with these things. So maybe the answers yes, and maybe live golf plays role, and um, but the you know that that is that is a hotly contested idea in this context, but I you know Tupac is right on some level. You got to go talk to the

man and hear what he has to say. This side note, I was the first guy on the Sleeves High basketball team to discover n w A. Yes, no, hip hop has always been But to me, those guys were incredible journalists. Like when they when they taught listeners everywhere about about real life was powerful and so um, you know, there's there's interacting the different cultures and and seeing the world is a powerful tool. And uh so whether it's music is also like I don't see it going if you

were if you were played Devil's advocate. I don't see it going the other way, you know, I don't see his excellency having a conversation with Phil all of a sudden being so piste off it. He's going to raise gas prices and you know, do what he's doing in his country ten tenfold, right, and so um, you know,

I see it from both both directions. One of the things that I was also thinking about is when people criticize the players who are suing the PGA tour, right and so you know, there's a narrative of you know, I would be okay if they just didn't sue the PGA Tour. Uh. The my response to that is, they're not suing the tour for monetary damages. They're not suing them for millions and millions of dollars. They're just doing

them for the right to play golf. And so my rebuttal to that is, you know, we were allowing football players. Tony Romo played in in one of the events. You know, Jerry Rice played in a professional event. Um, we had a retired tennis player, Marty Fish just playing the three M Open here a few months back. And so we're allowing non golfers, right, non professional golfers to compete in a professional golf event, taken away a spot from you know, someone who could be eligible or would be willing, h

more deserving of that spot. But yet we won't invite Dustin Johnson or Brooks Kepco or Bryson de Shambo into a golf tournament where you can't invite Kevin nah who's a two time past champion of the Shriners Hospital Open, And um, they're just fighting for their right to be invited into a golf tournament and so um, we'll find out later or early next year of how that pans out,

and so um. You know that's just the big one of the big topics as well of kind of where we are right out involves Yeah, I mean the the battle between not only the tours but also players within the system. Like let me read a quote that you had, um that I thought was really interesting and I want to get into this. He said, the secret meeting with Tiger and Rory set a president that the top twenty players can get whoever they want from the tour, get

whatever they want from the tour. So what's topping the other of our tour from getting together and doing the same exact thing as Rory and Tiger and saying the top twin players can go play there on tournaments, but the rest of the tour us stand together and we

want more benefits. I feel like a portion of a hundred million dollars could have gone to making the tour great rather than going the top twenty these little things that irritate the rest of the membership to the point there's a lot of animosity between the halves and the have not. I would call it the haves and the

have mores. But then if I had to redo that Stamon, that's the one thing I people are clearly, you know, it's and when you're doing an interview, just stuff comes out of your you know, and I should have said haves and have more. But but the larger point is true that the PGA Tour has now created this cast system where the top twenty guys or maybe a few more, but the elite have access to incredible abounts of money

and everyone else is getting some benefit. But even the half million dollars, you have to play really bad at not to make a half million dollars and earnings. Even even a crappy year, you're gonna scrape it around and make something close to that. So that's not really free money. That's just an advance. And it's helpful for sure, especially for young players are struggling guys. You can you can pay your coach and you can like it has benefit,

there's no question, but it's not really free money. Like the half million dollars isn't isn't a half million dollars net? You know what I mean. It's like we have two hundred fifty dollars worth of expenses, and then we're also

having big taxes on that. So it's like all said and done, some of the guys are making just over a hundred hundred fifty thousand dollars if you're making up five dollars tour, So that that also stem from a little bit of um frustration, I guess from the things behind the scenes that fans and reporters are not aware of.

So I'll give you an example. Um, in NAPA this year as well as the Sanders and Farms golf tournament, we have to pay for our own rental car for the week, right, and so two tournaments that are non elite, right. I don't ever remember going to a player's championship, a bay Hill even Tigers tournament and having to rent my own car, right, And it's for me is that they've

set they've set a standard on the PGA tour. You know, when you fly in, we're gonna have transportation ready for you, will have a courtesy car, whether it's you know, a BMW Lex's Cadillac or even sometimes where they do rent cars for us, but they pay for it and they have it waiting for us outside. It's very union for us, right, um. And so to have a standard on the PGA Tour and to be and have that standard taken away from you,

I feel like it's a blow to the tour. But to also question why, you know, and it's it's a it's a question about you know, who's paying it. You know, where's the money coming from? You? We can't afford the sponsor, can't afford the term, and can't afford having courtesy cars.

But then seeing a big chunk of money, a hundred million dollars going to the top twin golfers in you know, on our tour as far as popularity, right, I mean, I always bring it back to um when you know, I've heard people say, well, if you want a part of the hundred million dollars, just play better. Right. It's

it's a meritocracy. Just play better, Just play better. It's funny that Patrick Cantlay played the best out of any PGA Tour golfer the year that he won the FedEx Cup, won the Super Bowl of Our of our tour and didn't get a dollar from the pit program. And so what part of play better fixes that part that portion of you know, where that money is allocated towards or

who it's allocated towards. Um, So to me, it's like, I just I don't understand it, you know, Like, well, so my question to you is like, how how widespread is the discontent among let's say the rank and file the PG tour, the guys who are not in the top twenty. I mean, is there a lot of unhappiness with the current state and the changes of the tour

have made. Uh So, when when you have a couple of people negotiating for the twenty guys, right, and the twenty guys, isn't just the twenty guys, it's the thirty two forty guys that could potentially move into the top twenty, right, and so for these forty guys, for a few individuals to make the rules for the entire group, there are is gonna be um some disagreements on how how far they feel like they should go. So, for example, they for the new pit program they're obligated to play in

these twenty events. Well, there's I can tell you that without naming names, at least five to ten guys that don't really agree with that. They're like, well, I don't want to be obligated to play in these elevated events. I want to be able to pick my own schedule. That's why, you know, we're independent contractors and you know, being able to do what I want to do. If it's my daughter's graduation week, I don't want to have to play in this golf tournament, which, um, you know.

Then then it comes like the next process is, well, what's the penalty for missing this event? Well, not only do you not get pit money or you get a reduced amount, there should be some kind of consequence because like we're providing so much money up front that we're almost guaranteeing a certain product, and if you don't provide that product, like what are the repercussions? So now we're at a point where like we're still conflicted on what

this new product will be. Um, but yeah, there are a lot of people that are not happy with the new product that Um, we're in that secret meeting and I can only called secret meeting. Is that's because kind of what it's been labeled these days. Oh no, it's it's a great term. Um, but you mentioned I mean this is actually something that that that Phil has been harping on forever is that you know, the superstars drive the game, but they're they're outvoted by the rank and file.

There's a lot more guys who are you know, fifty a D fifty on the money list than there are top players, and that that there's the everyday tour player has an outsized influence because there's just more of them. And so obviously what Tiger and Rory did in their secret meeting kind of put a lie to that where the superstars can exert their influence. But you mentioned, you know, the silent majority. I mean, why don't you guys unionize?

That that's an idea that big and you know, golf is really the only sport where the players don't have a union to so why not, right, I mean, that's that's a that's a million dollar question right there. I mean, there's there are people that have considered, but golf is such an individual sport it's hard to get all you know,

I think there's over two hundred, three hundred members. To get all three hundred members to agree on a certain topic and to make everyone happy, because you have to in order for that to be effective, you know, Rory would need to agree on certain topics of that Um, gosh, I don't. I'm only saying his name. I'm not calling him out. But like Great Chalmers for example, right, like they would have to agree on kind of how the

money is being distributed. And obviously one is you know, possibly number one in the world, and Great Chalmers is, um, you know, playing in a few events because he's has conditional status and so UM, it's very hard to get all three people on the same page. Um. Also it's very expensive. And but also, UM, that's what the purpose of the board is, the Player Director board as well as the pack, and we're supposed to represent um, the

tour in the fairest way that we can. And you know, for the most part, I feel like they're doing a

good job. It's just something throws me a wrong way when we the pack as well as the Player Advisory Board agree on a certain topic and then Rory Tiger and the secret meeting happens and throws a wrench into our plans, and all of a sudden, everything that we've been working on the previous you know, two or three months is scrapped from the board, and all of a sudden it's like, hey, no, it's you know, the secret

out of the secret meeting. This elite group of golfers want something different, So now we're going to change what we we're going to come out with and satisfy what they want. Does that make sense? Yeah, it's almost like it's almost like two meetings going on, one of the actual players, then one with the commissioner um and the secret secret meeting. Yeah. No, I mean, those guys just

kind of subverted the entire process. And Monahan because he wants to keep his job, like he said, Okay, great rubber stamp that I love that this policy, Like, um, it was a very unusual situation. That's why it was so interesting. I mean, and even we can all agree

that Tiger Woods has had an incredible influence on the sport. Um, but does it make sense for him to have any any say in the future of the tour because he's not even going to participate in it really, I mean, it's clear that his his playing days are are very limited. So it's funny that Tiger, of all people, is uh is in charge in some ways when you know he

has very few events in his future. So and so it's also like, you know, we've created this pit to prevent guys from going to the Live Tour to give them more guaranteed money UM and Tiger had won the pit last year without ever playing in an adulter it and so it's like a royalty going to him of like this is, you know, thank you for all that you've done over the years, and we're sorry that you you feel like you've having capitalized financially on all the

opportunities these last twenty years, and so we're gonna make that up to you by giving you this guaranteed money UM in hopes of you staying on the PGA Tour and you continuing your legacy. But you know, no other sports league does that, Like I don't think NBA pays Michael Jordan's or Kobe Bryant or Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, all these like star athletes over the years and say hey, thank you that what you've done over the years. Here's you know, a percentage of our company here moving forward

for you know, for at the end of time. Like to me, it doesn't make any sense. It sounds at bit like socialism. I don't know how that's going to play in the locker room. And you're like, guys, who watch Fox News. I don't like socialism. We're just giving Tiger free money for doing nothing, man. But you know, on the hindsight, I do agree that, you know, Tiger, we wouldn't be here, we wouldn't be playing for the amount of money that we're playing for if it wasn't

four tigers. So yes, rewarded with something um but to give away a hundred million dollars a year, I feel like it's a lot how much unhappiness is there among the tour membership that you know, all of a sudden, Live shows up in the tour just turned to spick it on and millions and millions of dollars are flowing out of the reserve fund and and they're squeezing sponsors. It's like wow, you know, I mean, I think it's like, oh, we just found twenty million dollars in the couch cushions.

Guys like sorry, we we've been sorry, been sitting on this for all these years. Here here's the money you deserve. Like that's that was the one of the biggest, you know, biggest things to come out of the whole Live this whole experiment that we're in is that you know, we're being trained and taught and you know, uh molded to dislike the Live Tour, But as a p G a tour player, what they've done to our tour this year, next year, moving forward is amazing. Right, We're playing for

more money now now that when we've ever have. We've accelerated our growth into the purses to be able to keep our players right, We've come out with a hundred million dollar pit program for the top players on our tour, and so you know, you can kind of argue without the Live Tour, we wouldn't have all these things. We would still be playing for the purses that grow incrementally from Latin the previous year, but we wouldn't be playing

for a hundred million dollars in the pit. We wouldn't be playing for million dollars in the players champe ship, we wouldn't be playing for twenty million dollars in tigers event um at Riviera. And so you know, in hindsight, they've actually made our tour a lot better. Oh yeah, well, I mean that's that's Phil Nicholson's whole that's his whole position is like that, from even before Live launched, was that the tour is not doing enough for the players. And you know, I think in some ways he's been

vindicated and all this. But what is your take on on the the rise and fall and rise again of Phil Michelson through through this whole process. Yeah, that's a man um personally. You know, I've been able to play with Phil several times on the PGA Tour. I think my personal experiences with him have always been great. You know, same with Bryce and same with Brooks. Um. Those guys

they speak their mind there. They're your non traditional PGA Tour member that if they have any problems with the tour that they are free to speak their mind and kind of uh tell you where they're coming from and back it up with real facts. Um. And you know, it just kind of makes you see the other side of of professional golf, right. I Mean, there's this whole exercise. There's good and bad about the p of what happens on the PGA Tour pre you know, Michaelson and the

Live Tour. You know, I don't think there was one add thing that the PGA Tour has done ever, right, you know what I mean, Like it's like they were the Golden child. Like nothing that they do can ever be you know, talk down upon or like that. They're giving so much charity, they're changing people's lives. You know, they're putting so much money uh into players pockets and you know, in charities and foundations and all that. But

then now there's like a different side of it. And now it's like you're starting to see things unfold for both tours, but also you know the players that are involved. Do you think Jay Monahans survives all of this? I, as a as a current board member, I cannot answer that question. Um. Maybe in a couple of months from now, when my time's up, you know, I can probably give you a solid answer. But UM, you know, as far as we know, you know that the tour is still surviving,

we're having record numbers. UM, we have kept ah the majority of the players on tour in the stars that we needed to keep. Um. And so from that side of it, you know, yeah, he stays on on the as commissioner. Um. You know, I'm sure you can argue and a lot of players have argued the other side of it, UM that you know, could he have done more? Possibly? But when you're going against Greg Norman and the Saudi Golf Fund, and you know, basically an unlimited reserve that

they're sitting on. You know, it's hard to compete against an entity like that. Yeah, but the tour has done a good job competing. I mean, all the things we've talked about like they they've really the money is flowing now.

If if these changes that have happened the last few months, if they had happened a year earlier before Live had launched, you probably could have held onto some of your players, right And to me, that that's where the Monday Morning quarterbacking comes about, is that Monahan didn't seem to take the threat seriously enough or he didn't act fast enough, like because clearly the mental change can be brought to

the PG Tour quickly. It happened in a week. You know, there was a meeting in Delaware and then boom or the tour championship and here's all the new changes, like it happened almost overnight. So if you've done that a year earlier, I think you absolutely could have blunted liz momentum in a huge way. Am I write about that absolutely? I mean the one of the biggest critiques about what we've done, as well as the decisions that Jay has

made is that we're all we're very reactive. You know, We're waiting for them to make a move and then we react to it, and we wait for them to make another move and then we react to it. And so you're absolutely right. I mean, if we had come out with this pit program, uh two years earlier, you know, could we have saved uh some of the players. Possibly?

I mean, we we don't know. It's it's you know, kindsight, um, but the fact that we've lost some of the some of these big stars, um, you know, and in hindsight also that I think if we would have come out with this the pit program a few us earlier, guys like Dustin Bryson Brooks would have gone anyways, just their number would have been exponentially larger, you know what I mean, because they basically have to outbid the PGA tour and keeping me play these players, and they have an unlimited fund.

And so if dja's career earnings were projected to be two d million dollars after the pit program and the person increases, I'm sure the Saudis would have just random a check for four million dollars and just not even bat and I are grass prices would have gone up a little bit. Pricely would have gone up a little bit. But you know that's just how that's just how it is, right, And so that's a dark thought that our gas prices

are tied to recoup their money. Let's be got est, right, But yeah, it's if they were going to come out with this tour. Eventually they were, they were ready. It was time. Um, and all they need to do is, you know, what's what's everyone's number? Right, Alan, what's your number? James, what's your number? You know, everyone's got a number, and they just keep bidding back and forth until someone reaches that number. And then you start telling everybody, hey we

got so and so on board. Um, you know who's who's next? You know they're rulling right this checks I mean thinking about the number. That's interesting is and I think this is one of Monahan's miscalculations, is that he might have overvalued what the PGA Tour means to some of its players. Like to me, I would say, if I'm James Hant, I want to go back to Riveria for the rest of my life. I want to go

back to Quail Hollow. These are the greatest weeks of your life instead of playing you know, in the middle of nowhere in Saudi Arabia, but no fans like um, you know, the energy at the l A Open is off the charts, and and you've got every time you walk up the eighteenth fairway, you're gonna remember what you did and like, to me, that has so much value.

But obviously, you know, maybe we over romanticize this because a lot of the players were just happy to take the money and walk away from the tour and their favorite tournaments and you know, the volunteers that they've known for twenty years and the houses they stayed and all these things they get written about in the local media, which it sounds almost like b s now, like you know what, now that really matters if if, if the

check arrives. So I mean, how let's just let's just say that that live made you a great offer, whatever that number is. I mean, how hard would it be for you to walk away from the tour life that you know, Uh, honestly, it wouldn't be that hard to walk away. And I'll tell you why, is that it was very mind blowing when uh, the year that I got injured, I had a Parsley torn Trisu on them.

So having a great career up until that, I never lost my car to two wins on the PGA tour, injured my right elbow and all of a sudden, you know, I'm on I'm on medical UM. I had to wait six months to start getting medical checks um and being able to being ready to come back and playing in the confines of a medical UM status and being able

to keep my card that year was extremely difficult. And so understanding that any injury that I have and just as well as any sport um, could be the end of my career, and that I'm disposable, that basically it's

next man up, someone else comes up. Um, No one's really calling me and saying, hey, James, we really need you on this tour or tour struggling without you, right, But understanding also that um, Tiger Woods, Uh, he's injured and the tour is still surviving and doing very well, that they're just gonna find the next person, you know, like if we run in cycles, and so UM, knowing kind of that any week now, any year that my PGA tour could be could be over, whether I don't

play well or I'm injured to have guaranteed money is something that's really difficult to turn down. UM. So I'm biging on myself that you know, I'm gonna stay healthy for the next ten years, play on the Champions Tour and do all that. Um. But if there's a number out there that's basically gonna pay all that money. Um, and I gotta be very careful with my words, but pay all that money up front to where if I do get injured, that I will still have, um, the

life that I live. I mean, you can see my house. It's not a you know, it doesn't look like a fifteen million dollar house, right. I got the smallest house on the block. Um. You know I got a two thousand and fifteen Henda Genesis in the garage. Like I'm not driving Lamborghi's and stuff like. So, ten million dollars is life changing. So but for a guy like Dustin, you know, a hundred million dollars might not be life changing because he already has a hundred million dollars, you

know what I mean. So, UM, I feel like each person has their number of what really is life changing, um, and then being able to walk away from the game. I feel like it's a legitimate question that a lot of PGA Tour players are asked. Yeah, well that's well said, and I appreciate your candor. And uh, you know, I think because golfers have a long career, as the fans, don't think too much about how how much injury can can factor and decision. But no doubt for for Brooks

and Bryson, that was certainly a factor. I mean they've they've had serious injuries and you hapen to wheels out tours. I mean that was the most expensive back injury in history, right. I mean he's gonna with the FedEx Cup maybe and drops to thirty and who knows what his future looks like. So they definitely I think that that's a that's absolutely legitimate concern, even even if it's not really forefront for

for golf fans. But right, and it's it's also like to be able, let's say a couple of years from now, you know, if Brooks or Bryson had stayed on the PGA Tour and they were to have gotten injured and they have a life or career ending injury, right, They're going to regret it, probably for a really long time. I'm not going to say the rest of your life, because they do have you know, I've made some really good investments, um of not just taking the money, you

know what I mean. Um, And so there's it's hindsights always twenties. Yeah, if you're gonna stay healthy for the next twenty years, by all means, stay on the PGA tour. Love to play on the PGA tour, um, and just make a legacy for yourself. But if there's even that one percent chance that you feel like you're gonna get injured or you have had injuries in the past, it's easier to to take the guaranteed money then and take

a chance on your body. Yeah. All right, Well I've had a chance to talk about these things, and you know, Twitter is so reductionists and it's hard to fully express yourself. But I think the fans of home listening to this conversation will will have a more a greater appreciation for your thoughtfulness and and that you you have ruminate on these things in a pretty deep way. So and one thing that I would like to, you know, to say

is that I absolutely love the PGA tour. Right, I get a lot of Twitter hate saying, you know, Why don't you just join live? Why don't you uh, you know, it seems like you hate the PGA Tour so much, and it's like, I don't hate the PGA Tour. It's like I play on the p G a to or you know, how can how can someone hate the PGA Tour and play on the PGA Tour and play full schedule of twenty eight events? To me, it just I don't understand it, right, And so, UM, I love what

the PGA Tour is doing. There's so many great stories. Um. I am grateful for the opportunities that I've gotten, the two tournament wins that I've had, and hopefully more throughout my career being able to qualify for, um, you know, a Wryder Cup or a President's Cup. Definitely some goals of mine that I have. UM. But I can be mad, I can and I can love the PGA Tour and enjoy playing on a PGA Tour, but also question some

of the things that they're doing in the background. Right, I can question why money is going not more towards you know, the average to above average PGA Tour player and only concentrated on the top players. And I understand the whole aspect of it. But you know I can, I can question these things, and I you know, I have an opinion. I have a right to do that. But it doesn't mean that I Tomorrow, I'm just gonna call up it and say, hey, you know, I hate the PGA tour. I want to leave. You know, I

love playing on tour, I love supporting these events. I love um the fans that show up for it. And you know, I plan on staying here for a really long time, so you're gonna have to deal with me for a long time. A part of loving something is you want it to be better. And like you know, patriotism is not just blindly following what you're told. It's it's questioning authority and it's advocating for change. And I mean, you can you can love America and you can, but

you can want it to be better. It's the same with anything. So um, I think I think that's a very important point for you to make. So UM, Well, this this was this was an edifying conversation. I feel like we should do this a little more often. Let's let's try, and let's let's say next time there's a there's a there's a reason to continue this this this discussion. Let's get back on here because I think your perspective

is is definitely important for fans to hear. So if James Han, thank you for doing this Fire Drill podcast, will we'll wrap it up here. This is Alan Ship Night. We will be back in your ears soon. And uh and speaking for all golf fans and James, I think we hope we play well. Make that Rider Cup team. I mean that would that would be sweet. It's uh, you've had it. You've had quite a journey through golf, so I'm glad it's gonna keep going. Thank you very much.

Thanks for giving me an opportunity. You just gotta express myself, um and not on the confines of Twitter, So thank you. Really. Yeah. I enjoyed it a bit big and I played to win, made a fortune, win my ship game and I ran the table. Never thought I could fall them. The winter time hit me like a cannon ball. And now I can't shake this losing the street. Every road I take

is a dead end street. I got thoughts in my head, can't give try and nothing what I'm thinking about about in my head can get them out and try and not to think what I'm thinking about,