Fire Drill 040: Unintended Consequences

so much to talk about. Huge day for the PGA Tour and professional golf. We're gonna get into all of that right quick as they say here in Atlanta. But let's take a moment to thank our corporate sponsors who make this stuff possible. I've got this big asked ad read I need to get through. So UM part Points Golf, our favorite golf scoring app. You've heard us talk about it. It really does make the game more fun. Download the app today, you won't regret it. UM and then we

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That's fine, almost got it. That's fine. Ryan friends from the top. We have Ryan Friends who's always here to correct about Alan. Can you just say this about power points? As we say in Atlanta, I love him to death. Uh indeed, and uh that's Michael Bamberger. Both Ryan and Michael are in the fire Pit offices in Oceanside, California, as part of a little boondoggle slash junket um and um jealous, I'm not there. We also have Macbarnhardt, the Jerry McGuire of golf agents on the line. He's gonna

help walk us through, um, the very rapidly shifting landscape. UM. Let me just start real quick with some observations. Because I was in the room where it happened. I'm here at the Tour Championship and for a Wednesday morning press conference with Jay Monahan, who is not the most thrilling orator, the atmosphere was electric. I mean everyone knew he was coming in heavy. To use a Sopranos terminology, like the tour is in a fight for its survival and uh Monahan.

Of course, there was a call to action with the players only meeting last week in Delaware, which Monahan's said this only a second time in tour history. You have to go back to there was a player only meeting. I don't know if that was fact checked or not, but I thought it was cool. And um, he dropped a few I don't know. I wouldn't say they were bombs, but there was some heavy artillery was was certainly fired. Um. As a tour, they've decided they're gonna go to kind

of this twenty super event schedule, big purses. They have a commitment from all the top players to play in them. In fact, there's now a minimum to play in twenty events. Um, there's socialism has come to the PGA Tour. They're going to give each player five thousand dollars up front, which is interesting because, UM, I'm sure at their dinner tables. They decry socialism effect on America. But um, that's guaranteed

money as against their winnings. Um, that will make a lot of rookies and journeymen happy because they get the money up front, they can pay their bills out having to worry about it. Um. Those were the two big red letter items. There's some other stuff that's also important, but that's what we know. There's a lot of questions that need to be answered. Um, Mac, let's start with you. Um, you've you've wrapped Superstars, You've you've rep journeyman everything in between.

How do you see this, uh, this new PGA tour? How is it going to play out? I have no idea. Um. The one thing we're missing is the field size. How do you qualify? Is it just a hundred and fifty six people? That? And we know that the top twenty guys are gonna play in these eighteen events and as their cut, And if there is, then what have we really done? I mean, there's twenty guys may not benefit from this. I don't think these guys have promised to

play this many events without benefiting financially. So until they tell us how many people are playing. How they're going to build the field, We're not sure how it affects anything. It's just it's just more tournaments with bigger purses the same, It's just a lot more towards um what would you call it? More players championships. There will be a cut, I know that to be a fact. Um, you know the tours. I think the tournament side is going to

be negotiated. At the pack meeting last week, sixty players was floated, as as as the field side. That's basically a w g C. I'm sure there's pushed back from the membership that they want more playing opportunities. And one of the things that was really discussed is is this a closed shop? You know, how how can you go from being a young aspiring player or or someone how can you elevate yourself into this top player category and theme on a hand, and then Rory hammered the point,

just play better you can. You can play your way into that, into that rare fight air. But but to do that you need to be in the field. So I think there's gonna it's gonna be happy more than sixty spots. But you're right that that was not made public. Um, Ryan what what are your thoughts because you see things from from the ground up. I'm curious. Yeah. UM, I was surprised actually about the few players I talked to, you know that are kind of outside looking in at this. UH.

I talked to mostly conditional members. UM. I talked to six or seven of them, and one player was like, it's a plus over all. Uh. Their biggest concern is the field size that we talked about, and definitely that they've made it harder for you know, it's easier to stay on the tour. It's always been as mcno's and my I mean, all of us know, it's harder to get to the tour than it is to stay on the tour, and now they've made that even more. You know,

that divide even farther. It's going to be even easier to stay on the tour, especially to these twenty events, and it's going to be even harder to get there. So um, it's it's uh divided that in UH. Players on the bottom, I mean, one player brought up a very good point that I didn't really think about about the five thousand dollars. If you get if you remember

and you get the five thousand dollars. Um. What this player said was, I can compete on a level playing field from the standpoint of in his playing career, he played better, and then he hired physical therapist, then he hired a swing coach, then he hired a caddy. He could afford right that five dollars gives him a more

level playing field from that standpoint. It might not from playing opportunities or those kind of things, but I can immediately hire a nutritionalist or a swing coach or whatever and maybe make those opportunities, um a little bit easier. But I mean, everybody's concerned about how do you get to these twenty events. Um. The PGA Tour has always been a clothes shop. It seems to be closing even further.

So that will be interesting how it plays out. Michael, you've been covering the PGA Tour forever, um that this is a pretty seismic shift. What's your take? You know, right after the US Open, Monahan went to Hartford home game for him and he said, you know, if this fight with the Saudis is over over dollars, we can't compete. And here we are in in late August and it's been a complete reversal. He's coming in with money. UH, He's gonna key his core players. He does not want

to lose Sam Burns. He does want to lose camp Smith. He certainly doesn't want to lose Word. He's not gonna lose Tiger. And he's competing with dollars, the very thing he said that he wasn't going to do so. Obviously, a lot has happened between UH, between the US Open and UH. And here we are at the end of end, end of August. It's all it's all about money. It's about keeping these star players with money. UH. To Ryan's point about it's a close shop, and it's always been

a close shop. It's a very fine balancing act as Amazon and Starbucks and everybody else is finding out between UM, keeping the rich rich, but making sure that the middle class, which of course is in quotes here UH, doesn't unionize. Well, that happened in baseball once. Once the baseball players unionized, even though you know, even the casual fan can't name, you know, hundreds and hundreds of baseball players, but that

baseball union is super powerful. And if the golfers who are on the outside decided to unionize and say well, you know, you thirty guys, you forty guys, you sixty guys. You guys do your thing without us. They're gonna find they don't have the pH A tour. So it's gonna be a very fine balancing act of inclusion and and elitism. Well, it's just so many questions, like I say, I don't, I don't have a lot of answers. I'm gonna ask there were twenty two players in the private meeting in Delaware?

Was that correct? It was? Was that the and there's gonna be twenty p i P spots paide, So there's two guys that went to that meeting are not gonna get any money. And I'm I'm gonna be it's gonna be exciting to me to see if if the twenty two people in there, that at those at least twenty of those get the pr P money, how is that going to be distributed. I'm not happy about the pr P money. I'll promise you that I think this should be.

If Rory just said play better, well, how do you What has that got to do with the fifteen million or a ten million you get for the point system. That has got nothing to do with how you play. Um, so I don't like that. How's it gonna play out? I think you just said it once. They tell you how the field sizes are, how it benefits of guys, how far down the line it benefits. Does it benefit enough guys not to keep the other guys from saying we're gonna have a union? Um? Does it? How do you?

How do you keep that going? And you can't really say how it's gonna play out. I'll give you an example. Will Sala Tourists I think was in the meeting in Delaware? Is that correct? Um? Or did Okay? Will's now out? Where the Will's bound out with a back injury, he could be out for the other person. I'm gonna mention it like Karri's English who was one of the top players in the game until he had hip surgery. So now will does he come back? He? I mean, I

don't think. Yeah, Harris did not finish Top one and FedEx because he couldn't play because of his hips. How how do you Okay Will goes into the meeting, but now Will could fall to d in the world if this if you'll say, if he has back surgery, so what do you do about these situations to where you know your top play there gets injured, like in baseball, you put them on reserve, do you bring them back in? And again, all that comes down to what are the

field sizes and how does it play out? Are they cuts? And you say there are going to be cuts, um the world ranking points. If you put these twenty top players into these fields, you're gonna like bunch up these world ranking points. So now you've got a situation where let's say that the last player in the field and ninety wins that event with all those world ranking points, he's gonna shoot way above some of the guys that are your superstars playing in these events. So it's just

gonna flip flop. And and it's that there's so many questions about how that around the field sizes, and if they don't and when they answer that, then I can probably tell you how it's gonna play out well. And so this is what's interesting to me is that. And by the way, just to clarify, you mentioned the Player Impact Program the PIP, that that's something I should have said at the top. That's doubling from a fifty million dollar pool to a hundred million dollars. Winner gets fifteen

million dollars. And again I asked Monahan and his press comments, will will be more transparency because no one really understood how that was divvied up, and they didn't really make the results public. They kind of got leaked out eventually and then and then the tour was forced to to clarify.

But um, that's a lot of money at stake, and everyone believes it to be a slush fund that the commissioners just using to buy the allegiance of the stars, and that's not a great look for you know that one of the tours talking points is we're a meritocracy, we're hardcore competition and live golf is getting guaranteed money and they're devaluing the soul of the sport with his guaranteed money. Well, um, you know, if you're Roy McElroy, you're pretty much guaranteed you're either gonna be ten or

fifteen million dollars. I'm sure it'll be top two and the pif no matter what, because they want to reward it for his loyalty and Tiger as well. So, um that that talking point of meritocracy took a hit today. But um, for me, A big fundamental issue is there's now two PGA tour is it? It was always kind of there, you know, there was there was there was the big events, and there was the second tier events.

But they could at least hope that they could attract some of the great players if if um, if the scheduling worked out, or if they wooed the wife and the caddy or whatever it was. But you know, there's there's now going to be more than two dozen second tier events where they're not gonna get anybody in UM. There was so much talk today. It was clearly a talking point because both Jordan's Speed and Rory McIlroy used the term improve the product, like we're improving the product.

We can get the best players together more often, and we're going to improve the product. But when more than half year events UM have no stars, that's a real problem. And what do you guys think about how the torque kind of bridge that gap between the halves and the have mores. Well, my biggest concern and some of the players I talked to, also uh Alan and Macin and Michael, is how do those second tier events survive? Right? Like the corn ferry of tour can't get loses any constantly

can't get sponsors. At what point does Sanderson Farms or Barracuda or whatever the second tier events? How do they commit millions and millions of dollars when they're going to get none, not a few like they do now? Not like oh, you know, Rory's gonna come this year or whatever, And I don't know where they like a T and T Pebble Beach pro Hum, No one's playing in it. No one's going to play there. Uh you know, Sanderson Farms, Fortunet, Napa Valley continue, Like how long do those do? We are?

Is the PGA tour able to find enough sponsors to support an entire another tour? So basically there's corn Ferry Tour, this tour, the elite tour. How long can they do that? And how long do the members who are supporting it and paying for it on the top tour go what the hell are we doing? Like so that's a very big concern of a lot of the players. I talked to you that this tour within a tour really struggles to survive because there's just not enough financial support to

make it work. That's really well said, Ryan, because you know, the underlying purpose of the PGA Tour, by its actual charter, is to give playing opportunities to people who want to make a living playing golf, and the tour has done that very successfully, almost too successfully, because you know, playing weekend a week out, as many have said, has gotten very dull wares and the time wife Tom Wiscoffe error it really the count of tour really did end in

October and October, November, December, and even into January went hunting and fishing, and there was there there. It did give opportunity for for golf to refresh itself under this scenario. You know, these players are are are going to make NBA money, NFL money, Major League Baseball money, except for

the fact that golf is a niche sport. And to Ryan's point, no, it's pretty clear for Monahan's Commons today they had a slush fund, just like like Phil Mickelson has been saying all along, hundreds of millions of dollars obvious sleep because this money came from nowhere. It's not like Exxon Corps just suddenly wrote a check to the PGA Tours. Oh, I've been reading about live. I feel so bad for you guys. Let me write a check to get you through these next five years. No, so

that didn't happen. So they're financing this themselves largely. And golfs a small business. It looks like a big business, but it really isn't, not compared to the NFL, and not compared not compared to heavway boxing, even as as as diminished that is, so I really don't know how long term you're gonna pay for all of this. Uh. And to that point, this conversation we're having right now, no one cares uh and And the reason I say it just that way is because the ordinary golf fan

is going to care about this discussion at all. They just want to put on their TV and see players they know play good golf shots. And to that point, I think this is a very positive day for the PGA Tour because there will be more events with more name players and and and just enough not name players

who are scratching up that leader board. It's like, oh, can this guy knockoff Scottie Sheffler, just like we saw last week in Wilmington's so viewed that way, I think this is actually a big positive for the PGA Tour for now. I think they've really found a way to fend off Live, which was of course the impetus for

this whole thing. So in that regard, you know, my hats off, hats off to the PGA Tour and for for how they've turned things around in this very tense, odd summer and golf the likes of which golf has never had. Yeah, I think Matt can probably talk to this. But I just see in five to ten years a very real possibility that either corn Ferry disappears or this

second tier becomes the Corn Ferry Tour. I just can foresee a place where these twenty events or maybe they go to twenty five or whatever that is, is the PGA Tour. I just I just don't see. I just don't see this tour within a tour surviving. I just can't believe. Again, Michael is a hundred percent spot on. No one cares about the Sanderson farms like no one, I just is it, and they're going to care I

mean even less because I mean the players do. I'm saying that the hardcore vans do and the local community does, but it's not enough to put millions and millions and millions of dollars up for it. The tour can't afford to cut off the pipeline of young players. I mean, you're gonna see the situation in a couple of years,

let's say the next tiger Woods. Not that there can be a next tiger On pretend in three years, the next Tiger Woods is coming out of college, and so he hires representation, and representation calls Monahan and any calls Greg Norman. Alright, I've got player right here. Um, start the bidding. Do you wanting or not winning? Um? That's going to be one of the situations that will come. But they cannot afford to close the pipeline off. And so how do you do that? Do yourself fund that?

I mean, there should be a tour underneath the corntary. There's that much talent on the rise. But again Michael said, short term, the tour has now produced a better product for at least eighteen events. Okay, um, But the long term examples or long term effects or unattended consequences, no one can tell yet because you don't know what Live Live could respond to this in some way of shape or form, And they can't. If you cut the corn ferry off and Live comes and creates their corn ferry

in the US. Then then they then they'll have all the young players because the space in five years, how old we're gonna have Jordan's speed, Justin Thomas. These guys are gonna be getting into their thirties. And we know what happens at the thirties. I mean it's there's a slow decline. At thirty eight, it's it's more progressive. And at forty two, you know, it's so the tour they can't cut off. They're young superstars. And two years ago Scottie Scheffler was not even on the radar, and now

he's the number one player in the world. And who's the next Scottie Scheffler setting out there that may go out to bid or and that could be two years now. And I was gonna bring up one point, you guys talking about NFL money in Major League Baseball money, The one difference in the tour is their careers are much longer.

I mean, an NFL player's career is so short, so if he's making but I mean tour players now playing for forty years if they want so, it's not really apples to apples when you're talking about salaries for those athletes versus the tour athletes. But it also those guys in baseball football don't pay their own they don't pay their expenses, and so now the tour has done that for them. So they're gonna guarantee their expenses, which is

I mean, which is great. But if you play fifteen events on tour and you don't make five thousand, that will probably the last check you get from the PGA tour. I mean, for as much money as they're playing, you better be able to make the half a million dollars plan I heard. Yeah, so that's I heard some interesting scuttle but about that there there's already some talk like, well, what if you're a say Luke Donalds or even a Davis Love you have you can cash in your your

career exemptions or whatever. You can play fifteen events, you know you're gonna make half a million, not you might not make a cut, and but you get to keep the money. Um, And that there's that's gonna be an interesting scenari if anybody try it goes down that road. But I do have some insight about sponsorship dollars and how this is gonna work because I had a very enlightening call with someone who's deep into that world. And you know, basically there's there's a lot of events now,

like take the Memorial or Riviera. Their purses between eight and ten million dollars. They have to go up to twenty and the tour is going to split that and the sponsors have to come up with the rest. So these companies are already paying fifteen million dollars to sponsor a tour event, all of a sudden they've got to add another five for next year. Now that's great if if you know, if you know, you're gonna get all the stars, but Memorial already does, right, what's the incentive there?

So that's a tough sell and it starts next year. I mean, there was a call went out last night to all the sponsors. This is happening. Then you have there's there's fifteen events that are are vying for the four rotating elevated spots, and they're looking at even an even bigger hit. They might be a seven or eight million dollar person. They gotta go up to twenty overnight. Um, So there's already pushed back from the sponsors that there

you're right, Michael and Phil Michaelsone's right. The tour has reserves, and Monahan said, that's helping to pay for all this. But the tour is instantly squeezing it's it's current sponsors,

and when in already a pretty tough environment. So UM, you know that it's quite possible that you'll see a couple of sponsors or more defect because if if you are one of these second tour events, you're already in for twelve or fifteen and now you know you're essentially getting a glorified corn ferry field, that becomes that becomes

a tough sell in some boardrooms. So how this plays out on the sponsorship level, again, the fans don't care, but it's very important to the business of golf and it can certainly drag down the overall PG tour model and can affect the product that's on your TV. So there there's gonna be a lot of high stakes negotiating in Jay Monahan's immediate future because this this is you know, we're already the end of August. This is kicking off in January, like um, and there's existing deals are gonna

have to get torn up. There's people who are thinking about renewing as far as sponsors go. So that landscape has changed very dramatically, and it's gonna be very interesting to see if Monahan can thread the needle on this over and over. I just think that this brings up the whole thing of like how far behind and how little the PGA Tour and Jay Monahan took this threat. The fact that they're having these conversations with sponsors six months after the Lived tour started is insane to me.

I just this mind bottling, Like how that. I mean, they've completely dropped the ball. I just I don't get it. So it's just my two cents about it, and I don't really know Alan what what can the pg A Tour actually sell here? In other words, the Masters is the crown jewel of sitting around watching golf on TV with your family, and that group is skewing older and older by the year, So memorial, you know, get getting into summer months and the A, T and T which

cantraw a field. Uh, how do you get those? I don't even have sponsors. Moral now frekim me for not knowing. Um, I've worked. I used to be an issuey now it's worked. How do you go to a work there. How do you go to a T and T and say, yeah, I know our our TV numbers are down every year. Uh and I know we don't. We don't have that many named players. So off you a T and as historic as your mentors. Um. Uh, but please pony up another ten or fifty million dollars Allen. How do they

make that? How are they going to sell that? How do they actually sell that? It's tough. And you know I've used this example before, but you know, Pebble Beach is my hometown event and it would get three stars every year Dustin Johnson, Phil Mickelson, Jordan's Speeth two out of three or now would live. So, um, well, we can agree that a lot of the guys who went over to live are not in the primes of their careers. Their names and the people that you just fans gravitate

towards them. So you're you're selling You're selling a product the fewer stars no matter how you slice it, and that that's challenging. Um. So yeah, I think the macro business is really interesting now, uh Rory, I got some intel on this. Like last night at midnight I was texting or d M ng with someone who's who's deep into this world, that that Tiger and Rory have gone down the notion of privatizing the tour and bringing in investors under private equity money, which could be a gusher

of money for the tour. You're into the billions of dollars that could easily be raised, and that could float all of this and take a lot of pressure away, and it would be another way to lavishly compensate the top players. You know. Monahan was asked about that today in his in his press conference, and he didn't he didn't close the door. He said, you know, are our nonprofit status is always gonna imporant to identity, but there's certainly other ways you can. You can set up for

profit vehicles um under the tour umbrella. So that's interesting because Tiger and Rory have had a number of meetings, just the two of them, with this Rain Group, which is a big time um, you know, investment company, and they've they've been involved in the sports world. They helped sell the UFC Ultimate Fighting Championship for four billion dollars,

and they know what they're doing. These are serious people and so and Tiger and Roy are serious and so that's still on the table, and that could make a lot of the tours money squeeze go away, but it would be a fundamental reshaping of the business. So, um, that's out there, that's a that's a that's a possibility

that that lingers. But um, again, what's happening away from the golf course is almost warnsing that was happening on the golf course right now in golf Um, what was I'll shoot that point on what was it like for you to be in the room today and see, uh I guess Monian came in and then was there a break before Rory came in? Or did they were they ships passing in the night? Did they bear hug? How

did that all play out? Because this was a highly orchestra left him another hundred as they as they walked in another check. Yeah, here's somewhere here some pit money. Don't spend it all in one place. Um. No, Rory was in the back of the room. You know, they didn't schedule in the only game on hand half an hour and then Rory was supposed to be there. So Rory was standing in the back watching and it was it was kind of a cool vibe and I will say I didn't mention this at the top, Like this

little room, this little tent was packed. I mean it was standing room only. That really did have the feeling of a big event. A lot of tour people, a lot of hangers on, a lot of a lot of TV folks who ordinarily wouldn't be there, but they wanted to. They wanted to listen in and and and see it with their own eyes, and um, you know, mon had I tried to ask him a few tough questions at

the end, and he looked a little flum mixed. When it was over, he walked out and he went into this uh sort of auxiliary is basically where the camera guys hang out, I think, and just sat there and

decompressed and the security want let anybody in. And he was watching Rory's press conference, and it was like, how Phil, you know, after his rounds he would sit in the scoring tent for a long time just to let the stress drain out and and let some of the autograph seekers dissipate on a hand and stole that move because there was a lot of people out there who want to talk to me, including me, but we got sucked into Rory's comments and other things. So he looked a

little wrung out. Honestly, I mean, I think he knew that he has different constituencies he was performing for, obviously the reporters in the room, the people who are watching live on the Golf Channel, but also the players. You know. They put down a marker and basically said, Jay, find a way to pay us, like, just get it done. You know what we want. We want more money, we want guaranteed money, like make it happen. And it was a high wire act and you can see the strain

on mine Hand's face. It was interesting. And if you could get if you could give truth serum to j Mon Hand and pose one question to him, what what might it be? Um? I mean, Michael Bamberger will just leave the greatest, one of the greatest writers, golf writers at our time, speechless. You know, he's just searching in his hotel room in Atlanta. He just look and I'm just I'm just bailing him out right now. I'm super bailing out Allenship as he had no answer for this

until a word in because he wants stop talking friends. No, I mean, the question is why have you not engaged with Greg Norman and Live Golf. Why have you been so prideful? How did that benefit your members to not even take the phone call? And that's the question I want to answer, And you know, if it's interesting, credit

to Jason sobell Um, one of our typing colleagues. He went back and looked at Monahan's press conference from last year and there was a question at the end because even even in from the Tour Championship, even in August, it was kind of bubbling right the Premier Golf. He've been kicking around, the staudies were sniffing around, and he was asked, you know, do you think a year from now, which is today, do you think a year from now that any of these rival leagues will be a threat?

And in Monahan totally blew it off. And whether that was that was you know, hubrisk or maybe or did he really believe that unknown, but um, you know, and I asked Monahan about that. He kind of backpedal and said, well,

I take everything very seriously. And I was like, well, really, you gave the Live guys a huge head start here, So um, I would like to know why the commissioner did not do his you know, fiduciary duty here, um with with a little more enthusiasm at the risk that's very interesting on at the risk of playing couch psychologists here, I think Monahan is to finch them what bit of pain was sincere in Atlanta was to Hoodie and uh.

In other words, Hootie paved the way for Billy Paine, and of course Tim Fincham paved the way for Jay Monahan. Tim Fincham and Greg Norman they locked heads like two people never have before in golf and uh and and Monahan inherited that that mantle and that mindset from Fincham. Whatever Greg Norman stands for, we stand for something else. And even though Greg Norman really had quite a good

idea for just what we're saying today. Actually, and this is you know, we talked about Phil just a minute ago, but this is a vindication of Norman and from thirty years ago as well. Norman said we'd be we need the world's best players playing in the same events more often than just the four majors. That's exactly what Monahan is saying today and with it is exactly what Rory is saying today. Um. But as long as Greg Norman

was the face of this other tour. Saudi money, maybe a little bit, a little bit bloody money, that might have been part of it. But I think the biggest part of it was Norman and Norman's relationship with Fincham. I think Monahan inherited that that mental Yeah, I mean, here were thirty years later, Greg Norman still in the middle of all of it. It's incredible, what a legacy. Um. But uh, how can I ask you a quick question? Of course? Yeah, I mean you you've written so much

about Phil and so insightfully. To what degree are today's is today's news of vindication of what Phil told you in that conversation in February and also broadly what Phil has been selling for a long time now to is to or brethren. Well, I mean I tweeted this. I just it was three words, wrote Phil was right, and it was I was being a little cheeky. Um. I

think you could say he was right. The way he held it was probably wrong, but he kind of laid all this out there a long time ago for me, And you know, we talked about the reserves of the tour was sitting on you know, why hadn't they opened the spigot. Why don't the players have more of a voice? Um, feel has always been against opposite fields. I mean, his vision for the tour is the top thirty guys playing five times a year, and that's the whole PGA tour.

Son of a bitch. It's a personal attack on you, Ryan, but that's Phil's thought. And uh so yeah, I mean every everything he said has come true. Now. Um, you know we have been talking periodically in print and on these podcasts. Is there a compromise as our middle ground? Norman was always going to be problematic in that scenario, but I think, well, the tour has done today is taking that off the table. Like we're just gonna try

and rep the hate to live model without them. We don't need their money and we don't need their players, and we'll see if that's true. But um, this this idea of trying to put the game back together took a hit today. And you know, Monahan was asked, is there any road back for a live player if they if they want to come back to tour and they renounced their their status and they beg for mercy, you know,

would you let him back? And he's like, no, he said it with great relish and so you know, I think, uh, you know, it's a river in Italy. I think we've crossed the rubicon here and it's gonna be it's gonna be years before um before we can we can think about some sort of reapproachment, which is unbelievable, but that's just where we are. Um, Mac, what is what is your thought on that? I mean, if they but if

they come, yeah, I mean, let's go forward. Like they're talking about bringing in you know JP McManus or you know, Dermot Desmond and Johan Rupert, billionaires that could come in like they do on horse racing and everything else, and they can come by franchise pieces of the PGA tour and it goes for profit and they own you know now they just like going in a soccer team or a cricket team, they own a golf league. Um yeah they I mean, I don't think you can say never

about anything. I just don't think right now. Everything's reaction there and you don't want to believe that you're going to bring these guys back. But let's face it, we haven't talked about the four majors all of a sudden, I haven't heard any talk about not letting live last play or not playing. So the four Majors now will be the four events that you will see the best players in the world participate, supposedly, I mean if the world rankings and all that stuff work out. So I

don't know. I think versus the Live Tour, it's just like any other visits the tour. I've said it before. The tour was doing great. I think they did wonderful things. I think they put on great events. I think they did a lot for charity. They didn't have to do anything for me, And I think people that play the game for a living, and if you know, for love, what else would they do except play golf that the

purses were half, would they still play golf? Yes, they they, But now it's just more and more and more, you know. I think I brought it up to the Matt Janella. I said, you know, the tours saved, the tour lives gonna be okay. I'm not sure about the DP World Tour, um Asian Tour is gonna be fine. But who's gonna

save golf. Who's gonna save golf? And everybody saved their businesses now, But this is a game that you can be Ian Baker Finch winning the British one day and a year later not being able to hit it in a forty acre field. We see this happen all the time. There's injuries, there's the landscape. I mean, when Jack retired from the tour, of the tour did fine when Jack, when Watson retired, when Norman left, when even when Tiger left, the tour was doing just fine. We find more people

to pull for, we find more players. So I don't I think, like I said, I think this was just an overreach. I think they didn't need to do it. The guys that were gonna stay, we're gonna stay, and the guys are gonna go, we're gonna go. And and if it got down the money, I had to let him go. Um, I said in Boise last week of the thing, I said, you know, to a tour person, I just said, I don't get it. What do you

let them go? Like, Let's see what happens and then you can So I mean, I don't think you can say never about these guys not coming back, because if you tell me somebody of Tiger Woods status was out there, let's say that. I don't know who would be Brooks kept if he becomes if he wins the Masters, or he wins all these tournaments, that would you bring him back in to help your TV dollars? Yeah, you have to. Yeah, I think Jay is I mean Jay is Uh has drawn this line in the sand and he can't really

go back on it now. But if he leaves in one year or five years or whatever that number is, I mean, the next person and ten guys are over there, they just have to There's no I mean, it's the cart and I r l for the race fans out there. Everybody came back together eventually, and the Indianapolis five hundred is now the Indianapolis five hundreds that it always was.

And so you know, I mean there's just no way that if they all, if they live tour died tomorrow, that the PGA Tour wouldn't wouldn't let all those guys back. I mean, it's just it's not gonna happen. But it's not going to die tomorrow. I mean on on Monday and five days they're gonna poach you know a half dozen or more PGA Tour members. Like he's not dying, it's it's ramping up. So that that's where it gets interesting because it remains a very real and viable threat

to the PGA tour. This is a this is a total sidebar, but I think Will's ella Tooris's injury is a benefit to the live tour and guaranteed money, Like there's a possibility. I don't know anything. I have no inside information whatsoever, but back injuries and player and and golfers are are very serious. He's obviously an up and comer. If that's a very serious back injury and he's out a year and never really gets back to where he was, like he probably would have wanted to take on a

million from the Lift Tour, like he's not. I just anyway, it's total total Anthony Kim to that exactly. Yeah, it's no Anthony Kim was fart enough to have disability insurance, you know. Yeah, but he also had the driver yips. That's an untold part of the story. But you're right, I mean already the alt tours, they didn't say what they didn't say what injury could injury as a person with the chipping yips. That's a very very serious injury.

It's worse than whatever injury he had back to the question that you asked, you know, who's gonna save golf here? You know, with all due respect to Sam Burns, who's an incredible talent, but Sam Burns could walk in the Mall of American Minneapolis for a week and three people would recognize him. So I don't believe Sam Burns now or ever is going to save golf. Uh. Tiger Woods was incredibly powerful force in the Gulf. He almost saved golf. But the one thing that can act really save golf

is of course golf itself. Because as we fore, no and everybody else who's listening to this thing, it's a great game. It's an enigmatic, difficult game, and it has tremendous fan interest, and it's got more now potentially than

it ever has before because of the pandemic. I don't know the numbers others would, but I would think millions of people, certainly hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, have been drawn to golf during this pandemic, have taken it up, and they are interested in Sam Burns and Wills allot tours and they are going to support the tour and the tour or Live Golf or the Asian Tour or your corn ferry tour run or any bills can figure out how to get those people engaged, they may be

onto something, which is a segue to Alan, if you don't mind me going here now. But Alan's take first the phrase of the moment Stadium golf. Alan, what does the phrase mean? I've never heard until today? And how does this play out? Right? That was a sort of funny non sequitur of this announcement of this new uh enterprise that Rory and Tiger have teams up on. And it's going to be on Monday night. It's gonna be team play. It's this indoor golf league on simulators with

a live audience. I mean to me, it sounds a little like a dreadful product, but uh, it may be your only chance to watch Tiger Wood swing a golf club. It's certainly not the wear and terror of walking eight miles and and hanging lies and all that, so Tiger will draw some eyeballs initially. But um, it's tech infused, which is like my favorite new phrase, like, hey, how

you doing well? I'm I'm tech infused today. But um, like I don't know, it's it's just another way Jame on hand called his entire role the decks and was like, hey, Tiger and Rory are starting this thing. I know nothing about it, but I need you to invest in it. Yeah exactly. I mean, and they're gonna you know, they're

gonna try and pick That sounds stupid. Yeah, can you just write a big check to these people so they stay poleased, not even in a state of it's like an indoor sound stage, like you know, it's fake stadium. I don't know. Not true. There aren't paying There aren't paying fans watching on the scene. There will be fans, but I'm saying they're not tens and thousands of them. No, I mean, it's like this is gonna be like, you know, no warehouse, so it's gonna be in the studio. Yeah. Yeah,

it doesn't have the grandeur of an actual stadium. It's just um to me. It's like a totally bizarre product. But I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, Maybe it'll be cool. It's certainly five iron golf and top golf, and people consume the game in many different ways now, and but that's so experienceual. I don't know. If you want to watch someone else do it, I don't know. But that was another part of this announcement. But to me, what significant about it is is the strengthening alliance between Tiger

and Rory. They have come together to try and save the PGA Tour and by extension, golf, and the fact that they wrote a check and they became partners in this means something just like it's it's meaningful that there are the two guys who have sat down with rain group and try to figure out another way for the tour to move forward. Is a totally different business. And you know, Tiger's the needle, we know that, but his playing days are basically over. He needs Rory. Yeah, and

he's like his foot soldier. He's Roy' the guy was out on tour. He's very accessible, he's the one who's talking to players, he's organizing things, and so together they're a very powerful force in a way that Tiger could not do it alone. So while this this cheesy indoor golf thing is gonna lead to a lot of fun golf Twitter content, um, what it means is that Tiger and Rory are invested in each other. And you know,

Tiger and Field could never quite get there. They were they were too close in age, they had too much bad blood and history, and you know, they did a couple of made for TV things and that's all gone away. Um, so I think it has a larger meaning that that's very significant at this very fraught moment where Tiger and Roy together are really the face and the voice and and the conscience of the PGA tour. And and you

allude to it. And you know, I remember standing in a small group under the under the tree with the Chip Brewer from Callaowe Golf. You know, it could have been ten years ago now, and a couple of s I business people, and he was telling us about this thing called top golf and I'm like, yeah, that'll work. Well, that has worked and uh, you know, uh, who knows what young people want, but this may be exactly what they want, you know. And you were telling me Mac Mac.

You're Mac Mac. You're telling me the other day how cricket has read you know, I don't follow this, but I think Mac, you do, how cricket has redefined the Test match in India and other countries, and how that has uh promoted interest in the game. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, Like I say, I don't I think we need a fourteen year old on here to ask about what's he gonna think about Tiger hitting into a stimulator. Um, the DP World Tour just had a Monday qualifier, Monday qualifier

ish played on a simulator and why who qualified? It's it's absolutely wild. Uh it was. It was a worldwide qualifier, four rounds on a simulator. And the man who want it I cannot pronounce his name is from Montenegro and it will be the first player from Montenegro to uh play on an European Tour event. Side note, I can't find a thing on the guy it's gonna shoot nine, but he did. He did qualify via virtual golf. Well,

I mean, let's be real. I think that's the case. Yeah, I mean we all decry that the game is the fan base is getting older, and we need we need younger fans, we need we need to make golf cooler. So we're being a little snobby. Or maybe these are great ideas, maybe they'll take off and maybe they'll bring in the young fans of golf needs. So we'll try and have an open mind here. But um, there's a

little little scent of desperation on all of this. I mean, as you say, Michael that the timeless appeal the game is what holds us all together. But and Ryan, you've probably detected this as well, like I'm getting this comment on Twitter more and more like I'm done with the pro golf. You know, I'm not gonna watch you where I'm just gonna play with my buddies. And that's a little problematic if those are your hardcore fans who are

saying that. And um U. A corrollary to that is people are offended by the money, like, oh, it's it's too much money. I'm out. It's like, well, you watch the NBA and a lot of guys are making fifty million dollars. You watch. You know, money is has been all over pro sports forever, but people the golf and seems to be offended by the money all of a sudden. So it's we're all having to reconcile with this new

what this new reality. What I struggle with. I rarely try to be this serious guy on this on this podcast, but uh, what I struggle with is I've used social media and sports in my in my life to get away from real life, right, get away from politics, and get away from the stresses of the day. And the in fighting and we can debate whether you know, uh, Jack or Tiger is the great I'm not talking about debates like that, but just sports was always and and

I try to use social media as that too. Is like my outlet from the quote unquote real world, right, we can don't go watch the news and that's real ship going on. So that is my frustration was where golf is. I think a lot of people are the same as like that line is blurred and combined to get Now it's impossible you can't have a conversation about golf without it being political, and that part is frustrating

for me. And I hope that at one point that that is is, you know, dies down and we can just talk about who is the greatest Tiger or Jack, or we can have whatever debate we want to have without this you know, let's let's just talk about golf. So that's the frustrating part with me, and I think Allen and what you were alluding to and what I sent on social media is that too. Everybody's kind of

tired of all this ship and it just started. Well, there's some there's some other things that you know that people don't realize so caddies, uh make between five, seven and ten of the purse winnings. Um. I mean caddies now could be making an amazing amount of money if you're the right. Um. People have deals with their trainers, their teachers. They're psychologists that not only pay a fee,

that pay a percentage of earnings. Um. It'll be interesting to see if the players go and renegotiate with caddies and try to drop it winner and say ten percent down to five, you know, kind of say you know that there's no reason you should be making you know, four million dollars a year working for me. Um. Is there not only a players union? Is there a chance that the caddies unionize? Um? There's when money like this

starts flowing around, it flows down. And so now instructors that we're getting three percent of their players earnings and that's how they were paid that three percent. Does the player gon go to the coach and say, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna pay two because I mean, you're not doing anything different for all this money I'm making. There's a lot of things that are going to come from this that we attending. Consequences that we haven't seen

yet and every day I find another one. Right, I mean, there's gonna be some there's gonna be some silly stuff. Alan cam Smith, what any new intelligence? And whether he's staying or going He's gone, he's gone. Wow, Hey Deckie, I think he's staying. Okay, But as the International President's Cup team going to be terrible. Holy, it might be twenty one to nothing. It's gonna be the Vice President's Cup. Holy, that team was gonna be bad. Uh. Aaron and I

were looking at the list. Yeah, the next man up, the next man up. None of you have ever heard of that are listening to this? Okay. M J. Duffy, who is a Monday qualifier, played his entire life on the corn Ferry Tour so far is twenty six on the clip. Internationally, he might make the team. What countries from He's from South Africa and he qualifies. I mean, I cannot explain if no one cared about the President's

Cup before. Holy moly. They have got to start adding countries or something, and they might just split up the American team and be like, you know what, Will's electors with a bed bag probably better than your worst players. So why don't you go over there like, yeah, like everyone silth of the Mason Dixon line, go play for the internationals. Um yeah, if you're born west of Idaho, you are now part of the international team. Uh yeah.

So it was funny. I've I've been trying to get an audience with the Commissioner one on one for a long time, and uh I finally cornered him out there today after his press conference and he said yes. He's like, well, I'll do it at the President's cup. He's like, you gotta come to the president's cup. Was like, well, I kind of I got plans that we He's like, no,

you're coming to the president. If that doesn't sum up where the presidents come up, it's like it's like they're bribing you for a sit down to come to the president. I take that, Yeah exactly, I take that for insight. How quick and smart Jay Monahan is that That was the first response. Yeah, yeah, at the President's cup. I was like, how about Nafa, He's like, you're coming to the President's cup. Like dang, all right, I guess we'll go to the presidents. So we'll see that subject to negotiation.

But anyway, no unintended consequences that that's gonna be the name of this podcast. You just gave me the name Mac. I always have to come with the titles, which can be challenging. But we are. We are waiting into some murky waters here. It's gonna be fascinating to see how it all plays out. I will predict this will not be the last time we'll get together and talk about all this stuff because it's uh, there's so much to get our arms around. But anyone have any final thoughts

where we release our listeners? What what was the room like when it was over? Alan, what you know, Harrigan, Doug Ferguson and some of the guys who some of the people have you know, covered the scam for a long time. What would you pick up from the mood of the president? Yeah, and I've spent some time on social media today too. I think the general consensus is finally the tour is punching back. You know, ever since Live launched, they've been completely on the defensive. They've been

hemorrhaging players, they've been getting pillar read it um. You know, Monahans tried all these different arguments, whether it's the moral argument or maybe it was the legacy argument. They didn't stick. The players still took off, and so I think there's a sense like, Okay, this might not be the greatest idea, but at least it's an idea. At least they're trying. At least they're mobilizing resources and star power. So I think I think the tour one that the news cycle,

if you will, that's always I think in politics. Um, you know, the headlines are we're taking care of our guys, our stars are gonna play more, We're we're aligned, and those are important messages. Now the devils and the details. We'll see how all this comes to fruition. But I think the general feeling in the room was all right, Okay, here we go, and uh so it's it's not it's you know, the cannonballs are to keep getting shot back and forth between the pirate ships here, like, well, we'll

see what happens. But um, I think for today, I mean, Lives Lives response to today was Lives response today was trying out eleven time Grammy winner, still in the blank. Yeah that they sent out a three go ahead, no, no go ahead, great, no dipplo is great. That's what I'm saying. But where where's dipplo rank on the international he might be on the team. They might be on

the team, the entire team. The I just looked up the points list and Dipplot he'll be on the But uh, the the the the response by Live like just trolling each other. It's I mean, it's it's it's like a Saturday night Lives get at this point, it's insane. Can I make one quick side now here? And I'm still

in this from Mac. Mac has made the observation over the years that you know, guys get tour, they start playing good, they start making a name for themselves, to get on the tour policy board of the pack or this committee or that committed they come politicians and they never played the same Rory McIlroy at thirty three, which for Hogan, I know that's a million years ago. You know, it was the prime of his career. Um is so involved in other in things other than getting the ball

into the hole in the few strokes possible. Uh. I know he's smart, and I know he knows what he's doing, and I know he's his own person. He thinks for himself. But I think this is a lot for a guy who's trying to win the career Grand Slam to manage. Well, there's a friend of Minam Derek Smith's. He said that talent minus talent minus distractions equals performance and it holds

true in every shape of the way. I always said, if you know, Davis was on like five different policy boards on the tour, and you know, always said that if he would have just been selfish like Tiger and not ever got involved with that, Tiger may have been

Jason Davis. Um And I used to have a rule with all my clients that you can get on the policy board the year diggers getting off of it because the performance of people that get on that and become inundated with other things other than getting the ball in the whole. I don't know what the record of wins on people and policy boards while they were on it, but it's I don't think it's good. So you're you're right, Michael. Well, Michael, you know, we always have this kind of like mind meld,

and so I was thinking about that too. So I actually asked Roy that today and I said, is it is it depleting or energizing being you know, this advocate? He said, well, when you get stuff done, Um, it feels good and it energizes you, he's like, But when it drags and drags and nothing comes of it, He's like, then it's a heavy burden. So I think today Rory is feeling good. I think I think he really probably feels like he affected some change here that's gonna help

him and a lot of other players. But um, I think some heavy days are in front of him. So all right, let's let's release to listeners. But this was a good conversation, and no one second. I have a real quick I'm very lucky to be on this podcast, like I really do. Like I'm with a player agent and two of my uh people that I've read my entire life. And uh Jake, our producer, sent me a text as we were sitting here and I just said wrap it up. And I just said, kiss my fucking ass.

We're not wrapping it up. So uh, I would love to I love to listen to you guys. I'm lucky to be a part of it. So I told Jake to kiss my ask you guys, go as long as you want. Well, we're gonna we're gonna yield to Jake. I think he's a wise man, So all right, this is Alan Schipak ending another Fire Drill podcast. Belatedly that was Michael Bamberger, Ryan Friends, Mac Barnhart. Thank you for listening.

We will be back in your ear soon. Um signing off from a very eventful day at the tor Championship and beyond. Goodbye again. I played the wind, made a fortune, win my shot game. Man. I ran the table, never thought I could fall down. The wintertime hit me like a cannon ball, and now I can't shape this losing the stream. Every road I take is a dead end stream. I got thoughts in my head, can't get him out,

trying not to think what I'm thinking about. I got thoughts in my head, can't get him out, and trying not to think what I'm thinking about