Fire Drill 039: Patrick Reed vs. Brandel Chamblee

Schip knock back for another Fire Drill podcast. I have Michael Bamberger coming to us from the Wilmington Country Club because he's stalking the FedEx Cup, and we're delied to be joined by Jeffrey Tubin, legal expert, author of eight books a bunch you've heard of and have been turned into a TV and movies and all kinds of fun stuff. So Jeffrey, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. Great to be with you. I'm allowed to be with you. Even though I found out my

index is now up to fifteen point four. I'm so appalled, but I guess I can still participate in this conversation. It makes you more relatable to the listeners and also very relatable if you take the meme between Tubans Index and the other Jeff Jeff Fogilby's We've got a nice single Tojit Handicapper. Yeah, exactly. Now that there's if we ever do a company golf tournament at the fire Pit Collective, it's gonna be very interesting. We have a wide range

of handicaps and abilities, including a US Open champ. So um, we wanted to have you here today, Jeff, because we could talk about the FedEx Cup playoffs. We could talk about you know, Rory McRoy golf swing, but nobody cares about that stuff. All that matters in golf these days litigation and all these all these macro issues, and you're uniquely position to help us through this. I thought we'd start with the Patrick Read lawsuit against Brandel Shambli and

the PGA Tour just because it's such. Is any fun of my reading and I'm not a I'm not a legal expert. I just play one on the internet. Is that it's more of a public relations document that doesn't have a lot of merit. But what do you make of of Read's assertions, and does this thing have any chance of going the distance into an actual trial? Well, um, like, I know, you guys are not lawyers, and I don't want to get like hyper technical um in in discussing

this lawsuit. But you know, there's there's a legal word that you can use to describe Patrick Read's lawsuit and that lawsuit. That word is it's a joke. I don't know, I'm not getting too technical here, I hope no. I mean it's it's it's I mean there are judges who, upon receiving that complaint would sanction the lawyers who brought

it because it's so frivolous um. And I mean we can go into why, but just as a bottom line judgment, there is no way, uh, that case will ever get to trial, much less, um, reach any sort of result for for for Read. I mean, it's it's just preposterous. Well, let's do to tell us you why is it a joke? Okay, Well, there's sort of two. There two parts to his complaint. Um. The first is that um, he alleges libel or defamation, you know, which is a tort, which is you know,

damage damaging someone's reputation unfairly. And there's sort of two collections of complaints that he has about stuff that Brandall Chambly Schambily said on on the Golf Channel. One relates to the Live Tour and the other part relates to

Read specifically and his his history of alleged cheating. And in the first part, you know Schambily has is you know, anyone who follows the Golf Channel knows that he's been very um hostile condemn tory of the Live Tour and saying that, you know, the Saudis are have a terrible human rights record and you shouldn't be associated with killers, and and and Read quotes a lot of those comments about the Live Tour, but he doesn't say anything about

Read in those comments. I mean, he's just denouncing the Live Tour. So you know, one of the basics of the torque defamation is that it has to be about you in order to bring the lawsuit. So those so those parts just regardless of the truth or falsity or whatever, they get thrown out because they're just not about Patrick Reed. You know, he is obviously now in the Live Tour, but you know, there's no transitive property I mean you had had the statement has to be about you. Now.

The more interesting and an amusing part of the lawsuit relates to um reads shall we say, history of problems with the rules of golf and uh particularly um this incident that took place. I guess it's almost two years ago now, um the the embedded ball controversy, where I assume you're extremely learned and sophisticated audience is familiar with this already. But you know, I forgot which tournament it was. Do you guys remember Pines Story Pines where he he

hit a ball into the rough. He said it was embedded, so he was entitled to a free drop. But and that was and the cameras saw him do it, and he just sort of picked up the ball and took it upon himself to decide the ball was embedded rather than calling over a rules official. I would say the reaction of the golf world was approximately you know, Ukraine

Russia level of anger. It was just you know, people with nuts because read you know, has a history of of of controversies and you guys know this, you know, are a lot more familiar than I am. I wouldn't say he was ever the most popular player on the on the PGA tour. Um and Champloe, with his usual restraint, you know, said it was cheating, said it was outrageous, said it was terrible. And so that clearly was about about Read. So that box is checked. The problem is

is that under the First Amendment, UM, opinions are protected. Um. You you you can say, um anything, You can have any opinion you want. What you can say is something factual about someone that that is false, and I think one at one level, UM, this would be dismissed because, um, it's just a protected opinion. He thought it was cheating other people. You know, the the ultimately Read was not

penalized for the drop. But you know, sports journalism is all about criticizing players, criticizing officials, saying they were wrong,

and in that respect it's just protected opinion. The other the other you know, part of the legal aspects here is that Read is a public figure, and there are special rules about libel and defamation cases involving public figures, and and basically, um, even if a statement is false about you and you're a public figure, you have to prove that the statement was made with what's called actual malice and actual malice means either you knew what you

said was false or you had reckless disregard for whether it was it was false. Now now Shamble will say, uh, not only didn't I know it was false, I believe it was true. I believed he was cheating, and so it would get thrown out on that on that theory as well. So so Reed's case is really of no merit at all. And you know, he and you guys you know, probably better judge, better position to answer this than I am. But you know, it's it's designed to help his reputation. Do you think this is going to

help his reputation filing this scoofy lawsuit? I mean I think it's it's likely to have just the opposite, Yeah, Michael, I mean for sure. It just it's it's nonsensical. And the one thing that I thought was interesting that they kept coming back to in in the brief was that that Read was exonerated by the rules officials or he accepted the penalty, And they said, well, uh, you know, he broke the rules, but that's not Accidentally, that's not

the same as cheating. And I guess I wonder if that gives them any merit in this whether because the PGA tours over and over exonerated Patrick or carried his water or just slapped him on the wrist, they've never suspended him that we know of. They haven't sanctioned him in a big way that you know, the weight of the Professional Golf Association is like, well, he didn't he

didn't really do anything that bad. And that's where there's a departure between what Brandle saying versus what the official version is that does that Does that pose any jeopardy for brandal? I don't think so, because you know, this is journalism and this is you know, commentary and read it. Read is a public figure in a in a in a sport where there's a great deal of public attention, and journalists are entitled to make judgments about um, about

you know what, whether people behave honorably or not. Now, if if Brandon Chambley said on the air that, um, you know, Patrick Reed has been convicted of bank fraud, UM, that's very likely to be libelous because that's a factual statement that um would be false. Now let me just say Patrick Reed has not been convicted of bank fraud. But that's that's the kind of thing that could give

rise to a libel suit. But cheater is is a matter is both a matter of opinion and something that is an inference that you could draw from what what happened here. Now, I don't know enough about the rules of golf frankly to know you know who's right and all that, But I know enough about libel law to know that this is something that people debate and um, have strong opinions about, and that's what the first dependment is designed to protect. And also, Jeff, I'm I'm sure

you took evidence at Harvard Law School. He interfered with the evidence. Um, you know, golf is sort of like soccer, where where you're never supposed to touch that golfo except for on the tay and then taking it out of the cup. That's the broad strokes starting point. So when your ball is in a funky situation that does happen quite frequently in any round of golf, you're supposed to you know, you you mentioned bring over the rules official. Well, the first thing you're supposed to do is get your

fellow players involved. Not every situation requires the rules official. When he touched that golf ball, he interfered with the evidence, and really everything that happened after that was half a joke in terms of the rules of golf, or really half is probably understating it because because the crime scene if you want to call it that, and I'm not saying it's a crime scene because I picked up at

one tube and did earlier. But if you would like to call it a crime scene, um was already interfered with. So it was shall we say, fucked up on many levels, yes, And and just to take it back to the basis for this is, you know, Chambley was making the point that you're making, which is he's just what he did was wrong. And if you want to call it cheating, or you want to call it being a jerk, or you want to call it um, you know, being a

unethical golfer. That's why we have a First Amendment to be able to say things like that about about public figures. Because as I as I you know, recall the Constitutional Convention, there was a lot of discussion about golf. Um no but there. But but the the idea that there should be robust and aid of public issues is certainly something that the First Amendment is designed to protect. The only thing that because I know this from watching movies and a little bit from my brother who was a few

years ahead of you in law school. Um, you also have the weight of history. And sometimes it's a bit of all and some admissi admissible and sometimes it's not. But of course, as many of our listeners would know, he has had a previous history. And I'm not talking

about all the allegations that have improven. I'm just talking about the one that we could all see watching the golf tournament on TV and the Bahamas tournament what do they call it, Alan, whatever your challenge, thank you the hero of event that that was the thing and the thing of the bunker. So once you have that reputation, like Ricky Fowler, not a lawyer, very good golfer. He watched it almost you know, he watched a video replay

of it, and he's there at the tournament. And one of our former colleagues was there at the tournaman as well, a Dylan to cheer, and Fowler said the moment, I don't even think I don't even think there's a debate here. You can't ground your club there, and it was well, now I'm going down the Chamblie Road, which I really shouldn't do in this sentences we have jump on, but just to finish at one thought, they kind of did read.

I think it disservice by allowing them to continue in that tournament when it was so egregious, and it brings in many other factors, one of which it is Tiger's event. Read was Tiger's pick for the President's Cup. The next week they were golf or that Sunday night they're all flying to Australia to play in the President's Cup. So there were lots of different other other mitigating factors at play in that event. But that event in a way was a stepping stone to this event. Yeah. Well, the

rules of golf, they don't happen in a vacuum. I mean, there are human beings involved, and there's agendas. We've seen that Augusta National over and over where they've been the rules for the stars, and so, uh, that's a that's a really good point, Michael. There was a lot going on there besides just this did a few grains of sand move, it was. It was much bigger than that in the moment, and now you know, before we get to your other area, which is really in the area

of contract law. Let's get Mr Tuban on this question, if we may. Um. There's a lot of discussion in our country there always has been in recent years, especially that we are a country of laws. We are governed by a rule of law. Without it, we have chaos. And we've seen a book called Chaos about the about the Trump administration. I'm just like, because I've been hon at soapbox about this really pretty much all my adult life. But I'd like to hear your view of there are

a lot of lawyers who are interested in golf. But the relationship between a system of laws that golf has and that our American democracy has, and the protection of sanity for lack of a better word, and the and the tampering down of chaos. Wow, that's a that's a

big That's that's a big subject there. I guess I don't know if this is an appropriate answer to what you're you're saying, but I guess one of the things that has always fascinated me about golf, particularly at the highest levels, is the degree to which the participants um are the judges, which is something we don't allow in

most other circumstances. And it's something that I think is really kind of wonderful about golf, and I think it is part of what it's part of, UM, what makes the Patrick Reed story so interesting is that these golfers you know, who have millions of dollars on the line, UM you know, call called the equivalent of fouls on themselves, and and they really do do it, and they take

that part of the game very seriously, UM. And I it's so different from the rest of our society, which you know, increasingly um seems to seems to have very few rules that that people subscribe to it all. And when there are rules, they have to be imposed by the courts. Um. No one is going to be calling

fouls on themselves politically or or otherwise. And that's why I just think golf is so interesting because at least still for the time being, it operates according to an honor system that it's very different from the rest of society. Very well said, thank you, Alan, the floor is yours. Yeah, that was that was profound, and that's part of the charm. And so that Michael always goes back to, I mean, the foundation of the game is the rules and golfers

observing them. So that that that was really beautifully said. So the Patrick Read lawsuit kind of fun, kind of silly, a bit of a side show, but really this antitrust suit between the live golfers Michelson at All versus the PGA Tour is a huge deal that has potential to reshape the entire landscape of professional golf. And that that's where we wanted your expertise a little bit, Jeff, is to understand, Uh, is this a real thing? I mean, Uh, there's there's been a lot of talk about you know,

they not have a date. They're gonna go to trial in January of twenty four if it doesn't get settled ahead of time. Um, you know this this could be a bombshell for professional golf. What does your take on the lawsuit and where do you think the game is headed? Well, let me let me just start by saying that, you know, this is not the Patrick Reed lawsuit. This is a very serious lawsuit with serious lawyers, with with good arguments

on both sides. You know, I have a view of the outcome, but my view is not nearly as certain as it is about the Patrick Reed case. The the anti try, this, the the the the issue the rubric of law that this lawsuit is under his anti trust and anti trust is a very discreet area of law. Um that at um is frankly you know, not not understood really well by non specialist but you know this

is a serious lawsuit. I mean, just to cut to the chase, I think ultimately the PGA Tour would win if this case goes you know, actually goes the distance. But um, it's not a frivolous lawsuit by any means. And and I could see another another result, and and I was, can I just explain why why I think that? And I think that's literally why you're here. That's true, I know, I I but I just didn't want to

filibuster here. Um. I think it's it's useful to sometimes think about anti trust in terms of sort of metaphors

to two things we can relate to. I mean, the PGA Tours view of this is essentially, Um, we we are, we are an employer and and we're like you know, we have let's say we're we're an oil company and we're we're excellent, and we we hire engineers, and our engineers have contracts with us, and our engineer, one engineer comes to us and says, well, you know, I'd also like to be an engineer for Shell UM and the excellent says, well, what do you mean you can't You

can't work for both companies. They like, you gotta pick one, and and he says, no, no no, no, I really want to work for Shell And in fact, I'm gonna go like help them drill a whale and okay, you do that, but you're gonna get fired here, and then you get fired. That's that's how the PA views their situation visa v. The Lift Tour. Now, the Lift Tour's view is no, no, no,

it's not like, uh, two different companies. It's one company, the p g A Tour that runs all of professional golf, and we can't compete on a on a level playing field because this is a monopoly situation that they have monopolized professional golf and um UM so we have to be allowed to both participate in um our own tournaments and the Lift Tour, but also participate in the pg

A Tour. And I think they're too good. Responses to that um by the by the PGA Tour in their court papers and in general, the first is we're not a monopoly because there's the Lift Tour, and the Lift Tour has gotten an enormous amount of money and attention

and players and um, so that's the key. So you can't claim that you're this big success at the same time as claiming you're this horrible victim of the big Man, big bad PGA Tour and other argument that I think is is a strong one on big card behalf of the the p g A Tour is the biggest tournaments in golf. The biggest issue, the four biggest events in golf are not under our control. And at least so far, the Lived Tour participants are allowed to play in the

four majors. You know, the U s g A runs the the the US Open, the p g A runs the p g A, UM Augustin National runs the Masters, and the Royal and Ancient runs runs the British Open. We don't We're not in charge of them. So how

can you say where a monopoly? And you know, Alan, I was, I was reading your your scoop about what went on at the you know, the Tiger, you know session with with the top players, and you know, I thought it fascinating of of sort of how they want the PGA tour to respond uh to the live tour, and you know, they create these new super tournaments with no cuts, and and and what occurred to me in reading your piece was the private market is working here.

That there there are these two competing entities and they are essentially bidding for the services of the top players, and they are trying to make the best deal. And if I'm a judge looking at this, I'm gonna say, why do I want to get involved in this? Let let them, let them fight it out, I and and not I I don't I there's just no need for judicial intervention here because this is you know, the the the the free market for top professional golfers and employers.

You know, they're not technically employers, their independent contractors, but the people who run the business start competing for the services of the top people, and let him fight it out. And I don't you know, don't make a federal case out of it. So that's my take. Well, that's fascinating. Go ahead, Mike. Well, Jeff, if you uh, as a student of politics and and and the love both, UH, if you were hired for a week to be the advisor to Jay Monhan, what would you tell him to

do right now legally and politically. Well, I mean it's the one thing that I think he's done that that is smart is he's let the players talk, not himself. That the spokesman for the players have been the players. I mean, it's been Rory McElroy, it's been it's been Justin Thomas, um, you know, and and and Tiger to to to a certain extent. And and that I think is is smart because you know, he's he's a bureaucrat. He makes all you know, all of his money is

due to the skill of others. So I think that's been it's been a smart I mean, I think he gave he did one interview with Jim Nance, you know, during a tournament. But as far as I'm aware, he at least on the record publicly, he has said he has said very little. Um, you know, as for you know, how you know, I mean, to be honest, I don't really know enough about the golf business to know what

the most effective responses. I mean, reading Allen's piece, I thought, you know, the way the way to become what they're doing is, uh, they're sort of trying to become more like the live tour um, you know, more guaranteed money, more you know, for for the top people, and you know, some no cut tournaments, you know. I mean, it seems

like a reasonable response, but I don't want. One thing that I thought was very weird, frankly in the proposal that Allan talked about was this idea that the players would somehow become owners of the tour, you know, through private equity or something. And I just thought, you know, one of the whole points of golf, in any professional sport is that, you know, the top people turn over

over over years. So you know, like, should justin Leonard be I mean, you know, the the you know, the stars of yesteryear, should they be owning the golf tournament, the PGA Tour. That struck me as a an idea that I don't think made a lot of sense. But again I don't I don't pretend to know enough about the golf business to know, you know, what the what the right answer is for the p G A tour.

I mean, the fundamental problem that the PGA Tour has is that it's not competing against another business that has to you know, show a return in a reasonable amount of time. They're competing against the Saudis who have unlimited money. And can you know, give Phil Mickelson two hundred million dollars. I mean, the PGA tour, as rich as it is, can't give people two hundred million dollars. They don't have two hundred million dollars to give one golfer. And and

that's I mean, that's a legitimate problem. And I don't know what what the solution to that is. Well, that's where the equity comes in. Is if you if you have you know, I'm hearing people have continued to blow up my phone since out story posted, So now I'm hearing that the actual valuation they're working off is is five billion dollars for for this this new enterprise. And if you can I don't think to your point, you know, poor Justin Learn out here catching trays. But you're right,

I mean you don't. You don't want to reward too many guys because they're gonna they're gonna get replaced. But I think, you know, Tiger Rory, maybe Justin Thomas, that they've been carrying the water for the tour, and if you if you can't compensate them for staying and for all that they've done all they will do. I think that the equity becomes the money. They don't have the

Sautie's money, but the equity is is valuable. And you know, one of the things that I love about golf as a as a fan is, you know, Tiger Woods or a Monday qualifier. You know, when they show up for their tea time on Thursday, they may walk away with nothing. And and that's not true in any other sport. And I think, and as I understand it from what I've been reading, that was a big point that Greg Norman

was making as he was making the rounds. Is you know, if you are a you know, uh, mid level basketball player, you know you're making five, six, seven million dollars a year, and if you get hurt in the second game, you're still gonna get the money for the rest of the year. And and it's all guaranteed money, and um, you know,

other than endorsements, there's no guaranteed money and golf. And you know, I can see why when the golfers look at their you know, elite athlete peer group and they think, well, why the hell shouldn't I get, you know, guaranteed money, And you know, the Saudis are offering. You know, I you know is Pat Pere is going to make a hell of a lot of money anymore on the PGA tour. You know, Kevin na is a you know it is a good sort of mid level player who wins every

once in a while. But if he can get tent, I mean, I don't know what the numbers are, but if you can get ten million dollars from the Saudis, I mean, it seems like a pretty easy call for them. Yeah, oh no, I mean all that you say is true. I want to go back to the antitrust lawsuit because the way you break it down, it sounds like liv has has no chance. But I guess the count of argument is it's not that they work for Excellent and they want to work for Shell. It's that they don't

work for either company. They're they're essentially private contractors, and they want to be able to dabble with both and go wherever the better deal is. Just like you know, if if I'm if I'm looking for a plumber, I'm gonna call a couple of guys and I'm gonna tell whoever gets a better deal, I'm gonna go with that. Person. You know, I think that's where the notion that they're not employees to the tour, and golfers have have always

been able to go from tour to tour. You play some in Europe, you play some of the US, you might go down to Australia and South Africa, and like Roy mclroy has done that. You know, some of the other Live guys who are more international players, like an Ian Poulter, like they bounced from tour to tour throughout their careers and so they would like to continue doing that with Lived being one of those tours. And so that's where I think the counter argument is, like this

already existing golf. Why why is it suddenly you were banned and you're turning into a closed shop. Well that's I mean that that and that's that is not that is not about a bad argumentum Again, what the PGA Tour will say is, you know we we yes, we do allow under certain limited circumstances to play a certain number of events um in in other in other tours. But that's in our discretion and we are not obliged to destroy ourselves to to give um, you know, an

opportunity to play a directly competing tour. I mean, yes, you can play in what's I guess called the DP Tour now, the European Tour, the Asian Tour, uh if you want, but they're they're not directly competitive with the PGA Tour. We are not oblige the PGA Tour to

essentially subsidize our competitors. And um, but you know your point is is not a you know that that that's not that's not a frivolous argument on on the part of the lift golfers, you know, and and also um, you know, just to to argue with myself before the four major tournaments. You know, one of the ways you you main ways you qualify for the for the four

majors is through the p g A Tour. So um, you know that's that's an argument that that the lived the Lived Tour will make I mean as that that's why you know these are not, um, you know, the frivolous arguments. You know what what it seems to me, I mean, you tell me because you're you're much more intimately involved with this is what Norman and um, you know, the saudiast seem to want to do or I don't know, maybe do you tell me it's sort of like what happened with the A f L in the NFL or

the A B A and the NBA. Is that, you know, this competing tour starts up, competing league starts up, and ultimately the the the old established league says well, all right, let's all get together and um, will will I mean, is that the goal here? Well? I think I don't know if that's anyone's goal, but it's it's definitely a possibility as a compromise. I mean, we'll we'll find out.

It seems like the PGA Tour and its stars would like to to sort of do an end around, an end around and take the Live concept, make it their own and not have to get involved with Greg Norman, who some of them don't hold in high esteem, and not get involved with the Saudis, which of course is a very complicating factor on a lot of levels. Um, But ultimately, you know, I think I think if Live was given the opportunity, they would love to have a seat at the table, and they might they would be

willing to compromise. I think the tour is a little more dug in its position, but um, you know that's what all these secret meetings are about is can can the players find their own path to making the tour more attractive, more profitable for them um, more guaranteed money um and and sort of by the loyalty of its stars because uh, you know it's I think that that's really the fundamental issue here is is how can the PG you Tour find a compromise? Can they do it

without the Saudis? If the answer is yes, then they will. But if if they can't make that work, then I think, you know, a compromise becomes more attractive. Yeah, I mean the whole Saudi aspect of this. I mean I I I mean I I am highly familiar with the human rights record of the Saudis, but but the idea of the PG eight Tour as the human rights guardians of the world, you know, give me a fucking break. I mean, you know, this is a this is a tour that

has a big operation in China. They they you know, there's a tournament in Saudi Arabia every year that you know a lot of p G A tour plays and a player. I mean, look, I just you know, I can understand why individual golfers don't want to be affiliated with the Saudi regime. But the idea that the reason the PG eight tour is uh objecting to the Lived tour is because of human rights, I don't. I don't think so. I mean, you know, I think that's that's

kind of a joke. Jeff is someone who has written a lot about you have a lot about power dynamics and different situations in the court in politics, Patty hurts lots of different situations. Um. Greg Norman's starting point is, well, I came to you Jay Monahan, and I came to you Fred Ridley, and you wouldn't even take my my call. And now that it seems that we we seem to have the upper hand with this Outias and Live Golf seem to have the upper hand, and you're going to

come back to us with something. Um, But my question is is it the way power politics play out? Is it may be too late for a compromise. Do the Outiaes and and live in Greg Norman, do they actually have the upper hand now and there's really nowhere to go for a compromise. Well, you know what I mean. I think the answer maybe that we have to see

how this plays out for for a while. Um. You know, one of one of the things, um, that that I find about the Live Tour is that the press conferences of the players are more interesting than the golf tournaments. I mean, I mean, I am unlike you guys. I mean, I am like a I am not a pro golf journalist. I am a pro golf fan. And I can tell you a hundred that I do not give a ship who wins a Lift Tour event. I don't care about

those tournaments. I think the team concept, you know, the fireballs or whatever the hell they're called, I think it's it's ridiculous. I don't and it may be and they don't have a TV contract so you have to watch it on YouTube or something. I mean, I don't know.

I haven't watched any of it. So I mean, it may be that the Lift Tour just sort of doesn't take off, And it may be that no one goes to their tournaments and no one watches, and no one cares other than the players who make four million dollars for winning the tournaments, and and which which could change the power dynamics. On the other hand, you know, if you know, you know, it looks like they're gonna get camp Smith, who is, like, you know, arguably the best

golfer in the world right now. Um, you know Brooks kapta, Um, I mean, I don't have to tell you. You know, Nicholson I think is sort of weirdly irrelevant at this point because he's so you know, he's so over the hill and thanks to you Alan having all sorts of mental problems. Um. It's one might say the mental problems pushed Bill to call Alan in the first place, confusing

Alan's role as writer with that a therapist. But but but in any case, I mean, just my point is, it seems to me that there's the standoff now, but events will will intervene and uh like for examply mean, one thing that's interesting is, you know, we've got the President's Cup coming up, which has always seemed to me is sort of like, you know, the poor man's ryder cup. I don't really care much what happens in the President's Cup,

and I think most people. But but it's going to be a diminished field because of live you know, will that hurt um will that will that have an effect on the whole dynamic? I don't know, what do you

what do you think? Yeah, for sure. I mean that week will show we'll throw into sharp relief the damage that lives done because you're not gonna have Dustin Johnson just went five and note with the Ryder Cup and what was the hero at Whistling Straits and uh, it seems like a certainty you won't have Cam Smith who was going to be the big dog on the international team. And you know Bryson Deshambo who is a lightning rod but it was certainly fun to watch at the Ryder

Cup and is built for match play. Um, just say nothing of Patrick Reed. Patrick Reed, formerly known as Captain America. Uh, you know Kepta hasn't been playing well, but he's he's still he's he's a he's kind of built for match play. So both teams are diminished. You know, their biggest star in Latin America ABE answer is not going to be there. Um we woose ties in the most popular players in golf, who's you know, kind of flying the flag of South

Africa golfing nations. So yeah, that that week is going to be eerie because it's gonna be about who's not there as much as who is. So that that will be a testament to what you're saying earlier of live strength, and it does undercut their case that the Tours of Monopoly whe they've siphoned off all these players. Well, and

and here's a here's a question for you. Um, I mean, I'm sorry to be asking questions rather than answering them, but you know, it seems to me the one big factor about whether the Lift Tour uh of or dies is whether they can get a TV contract in the United States, because if they're really only on YouTube, I don't really see them, you know, have any sort of have any real sustaining power. Um, obviously, I guess Foxes is the obvious possibility. Do you think they'll get a

TV contract? Well, I will say you might possibly be dating yourself, because YouTube is a second and most visited website there is, and you know, the number of people who spend countless hours on YouTube is substantial. So I think it's is better than than I mean, us old folks might give it credit for. But um, yeah, I mean definitely, being on network TV is a is a sign that you've arrived, and if you're not on TV, you don't exist in the imagination of a lot of fans.

So I agree with what you're saying. Well, no, but I mean the point isn't so much about Yeah, I mean, I I am dating myself. I'm happy to acknowledge that. But but YouTube doesn't pay them anything. I mean, there's no and and and you know the other thing that that's worth thinking about in all of this is, you know, and this guy, this comes out of my my, you know,

Maggie and you guys you know, from Sports Illustrated alums. No, this is that you know, people say, oh, well, you know, these rich people, they'll just buy a prestige product and they'll keep subsidizing it forever. Yeah. Maybe, and maybe you know what this so Saudi guy, this guy who's you know, the big golf fish and I forgot his name, but the guy who's you know, Norman's sugar daddy, his excellency. Yeah,

what happens if he catches a coal? What happens if he says, you know, this isn't working out so well, or or his you know, NBS says, you know, we don't we're we're we're we're sick of this. I mean, it's not stay. You know, things that are not profit making in American life are not necessarily sustainable and if the Saudis are losing you know, literally billions of dollars on golf, like at some point and maybe not too long from now, and say like why are we doing this?

What do we care? I mean, I just think that's a possibility worth considering. I agree, Michael. Do you think do you think there's a TV contract out there for live golf? I don't see it. I mean, now, Alan, you've been to events and I haven't, but you know, three rounds, it's not the shotguns start, but the shotgun finished. I don't see how you can do that on TV. You don't have that building to a climax like you have, you know, the fourth quarter of a football game or

the ninth inning of a baseball game. You know what I just you know, just what you just said. I mean, maybe I'm just ignorant, but I recognized the shotguns start, but a shotgun finish is terrible for TV. What they do is that for the for the they send the leaders. So the leaders go off of one, the nearest pursuers go off of two. You know, so it is it is based on scores. So the last round where quite

possibly the eighteenth hole could be the deciding hole. But there's definitely someone could start an hour and a half ahead of the leaders and shoot just sixty two and win the tournament by finishing on number thirteen. I mean that you know that that's well within the real possibility and that scenarios sort of played out already out there. So, um it is. It is messy, and we all know the golf courses are sequence in a certain way. There's

a rhythm, there's a charm, and they're designed. You know, if imagine a shot can't start an augusta National right like there's there's there's a whole ebb and flow or pebble beach. You know, it's a gentle beginning and then you get killed in the middle. Then you catch your breath and you finished by the ocean, like you know, the great courses. It's like a symphony. And it definitely it gets just stroid when when you start going off the you know, the fourth T or the seventh T

or the nineties. So it's, um it is. It is problematic. But on the flip side, it just feels like live sports is more and more valuable as a property because in this this fragmented landscape of of media. It's the one thing that people all watch at the same time. You can't skip the ads, and um, it's it's appointment viewing that it's really the last appointment viewing there is. So I mean, you know you mentioned Fox, Jeffrey. I think that's that's a possibility. Um, it could be, it's not.

It could be just a streaming deal. But it goes from from YouTube where they're not making money, to an Apple TV, which could pay them a lot. And uh, you know these streaming services are all desperate for content. Uh so, uh, you know Amazon has gone big into

original content and into the sports world. And you know, if you if you have Apple and you have Amazon come to the table all of a sudden, the price could go up pretty quick and they could do something close to a big deal that would edge them in the direction of profitability. So I think the streaming deal

will get better. I don't know if they'll be on TV or not, but it's it's obviously a fundamental question for the future of live jeff Can you imagine a scenario where you may not know the chef and and you follow golf closely. It's impressive how much you do

know about it. But you may not know this that the awarding of UM world ranking points is done by a committee and the PGA Tour sits on that committee, so that so it has a vote in deciding whether live golf events will get World Ranking points or not, which of course is critical to the feeding of the

major tournaments as well. Um, could you imagine a lawsuit arising by which the PGA Tour has challenged over whether or alan correct me if this has already come up, and I don't know it, I don't believe it has, but correct me if if if it has, could you imagine a lawsuit where the PGA Tour is successfully challenge on the DOA that No, you can't be the judge and jury in this decision of who gets points and who doesn't. Yes, I mean, I I think that's Um,

that's that's part of them. I'm trying to remember from from reading the complaint whether the world golf rankings are mentioned in there, But um, it is a pretty good I mean, especially since the world golf rankings are a big factor and who gets into the big fourt you know, the majors. Um, you know that that that is an argument against the p G eight saying, you know, we don't even run the majors. You know, they they obviously

have a voice. Um, you know, whether it's you know too, the connection is to attenuated that they are just one voice among many. That's something that would obviously be dispute did in litigation. But you know that that that shows that they are not just you know, another um employers that they have. They have a considerable amount of power

over the professional game of golf around the world. Yeah, at your point, Michael, I think it's clear that that j Montamial and any PGS representative will have to sit out or recuse themselves from any of these discussions. But even so, there's you know, there's there's a lot of people on the board. But it does get to the question where the tour has has such a cohesive relationship with the PGA of America, with the RNA, with Augusta National, and they all sit on the board of the world ranking.

So uh, the question becomes is the tour pressuring them behind the scenes? Um? What other agreements have been in place, handshake or not? What are the you know, for instance, I mean the PGA Tour did Augusta National a huge solid for decades when they had a rule on books that you had to have a device diverse membership to host a pg Tour event, and they look the other way. So Augusta National and the Masters could become official money and count as official win and so there's there's always

some quid pro quo on these things. And you know that that's where if if lives deniable ranking points, you could see a lawsuit saying well, this this was the fix was in. This was another monopolistic situation where the tour exerted his influence and we didn't get a fair affair shake. So but but I guess you know, I'm just thinking thinking this through as you are, um, you know,

describing all these issues. You know, oftentimes when when you have a dispute between parties, there is a fairly obvious compromise solution. I mean usually it's like the exchange of money. You know, you sue for a million dollars, so we'll settle for hundred thousand or five hundred thousand. At least as far as I'm aware, it's not an obvious compromise here between Live and the PGA Tour. I mean, is there, Well,

we we've talked about this in some other forums. I mean, one way would be to take these live events and absorb them into the tour schedule, and so maybe you play them in the fall, or maybe you sprinkle them throughout the year. And for a lot of players, that would be a dream scenario. You keep your PGA Tour card, you get to cherry pick these these huge money live events.

For the live folks, they could get a slice the TV contract, and more than that, they would get what they create, which is legitimacy and and being you know, welcomed into the halls of power by the Western world. So, um, it gets very complex. There's a lot of questions have to be answered. But that if you're just if you're just spit bawling like that could be the compromise and the tour gets to keep its stars, they get to bring back their former stars. Um, everyone can declare victory

on s level, but it's it's message. So that's basically like a merger. I mean, if the schedules are are coordinated and the players can go back and forth. I mean, isn't that essentially I mean, I guess the administration of the different tournaments, but it would be like like it's

it's just one one outlet, no is that? Yeah? And and the PGA Tour, I mean they did the strategic alliance with the European Tour and then it allows players on each tour access to the tournaments and they acknowledge each other in different ways, and they share the money and they share the social media resources and so there there's a blueprint for it already they and they just did it so um and if you get live, you're

also getting the Asian Tour because they're now linked. So on some level you could you could unify the entire sport and come up with some global schedule that made a lot of sense. And you know, one of the key points from this meeting that Tiger just held was this this bedrock belief that we've got to get the top players together more often. That's where the juices, that's where the TV ratings are. It's good for the sports, good for all of us, and so you know, LIV

could help accomplish that. Now, again it's there's a lot of there's a lot of things you'd have to sort through. But is that that would be the compromise To answer your question? I love I love in the all the ridiculous arguments that the live tour makes. My favorite is like it's too much travel. I can't I I the PGA tour is too much travel. Like Matthew Wolf, he's twenty three years old. He's like he misses his dog. He's in and he's like, you can't travel more than fourteen.

It's like it's like what a heartship for a fourteen you know, twenty three year old to have to travel like sixteen weeks a year, It's like it's like in human it's like such a bullshit. I mean, I you know, why don't they just I mean, I guess it wasn't Pat Paris, Who's who said it's like, yeah, like they gave me a lot of money. That's where I went. I mean, isn't that's really what this is all about? Right?

I mean, of course, of course, but there are some some Shakespearean things at work here, you know, some of these themes of of greed and vengeance and legacy, and you know it's playing on a few different levels. But you know, money is certainly driving so much of this, as it often does. But well, and and and I guess your point is, I mean they just a lot of these people at all levels of the of of professional golf just despise Greg Norman and that they don't

want him to win. And that seems to be, as you say, sort of one of the Shakespearean aspects of all this, that that you know, if this were some anonymous private equity guy, maybe they'd make a deal, but they don't want to make a deal with Greg Norman. Right. Uh, that's very well said, Jeff. I think you're really hit upon the most important question. You know, what could be

a path to compromise. And we had Jeff Ogilvie Allen I did, or we were together with Jeff Ogilvie, we couldgo and he talked a lot about compromise and really opened up people's eyes, that opened a mindset idea that there could be. But this is a very big button, this situation. We don't know what the Saudis want here.

If the goal here is really a geminy of all of golf, and here's this great capitalist tool golf that America has you know, banked for for a hundred years now, done so well with it, and we're going to take it over, which I believe is their goal. But I don't know that at all, but that that would be

a guess. Uh, then there really isn't a path. Uh. Then it's sort of you know, like almost everything in life can be answered by, you know, trying to apply the logic of the Godfather to whatever is going on in the real world. Well, the answer usually is that the guns come out and people get killed and one guy's left standing and I think it's gonna be MBS because he's got the most ammunition. And Jay mon Hans already admited to that. You know, people say, oh, Monahan

misplayed his cards. There were no cards to play because professional golfers, by their very nature, are drawn to money. They don't care about Randall Shamblee going on by name and Lynch and you and the three of us going about human rights abuses. They want to get paid and these guys are paying and they're gonna go no. I mean, the the the the I mean, you know, I think you know what you're saying about Monahan is is so right. It's like, well, why don't you pay Phil Nicholson two

million dollars? He doesn't have that kind of money. And if the players are gonna go to who will pay the most, which, as you say, is what they generally do. That's what they're gonna do well. And but this is where we're talking about My Monahan didn't have cards to play, but Tigers coming in with a new deck of cards. And this this is where this this reshaped tour becomes interesting.

If they privatize is and they go they bring in private equity money, and they bring in investors, they could very quickly have a war chest of five or seven or ten billion dollars and that that's not quite sauty, bunny, but it's now you haven't brought a knife to a gunfight, you know, to use your analogy, Mike, which probably in appropriate given this whole geopolitical, uh backdrop to this. But

now they've got some ammunition. And are they outgunned to extend the metaphor, yes, but at least at least they're you know, they're shooting back. And so um, I think it's what happened in Delaware with Tiger jetting. In the second such meeting, they had one in adair manner and uh, there was only one person in the room who wasn't a golfer. It was it was a big swinging Dick

in the private equity world. That's an industry term. I didn't make that up um And he was there as an advisor, and I've been told that he met with Tiger and Rory for two hours before that meeting to really hash this plan out in more detail. And so this is how the tour fight is by bringing in this outside money. Can I just I mean, I know you guys need to go, and I probably should go, but I let me put on my golf fan hat for a while. I mean, just, you know, independent of

all this, which is who needs this fight? I mean it's like, you know, one of the things in the world that I thought was not broken was the p G A Tour. I mean, as a golf fan, I didn't give a lot of thought to the p G A Tour. But you know, on I I love my PGA tour dot Com webs you know, the website, and I'm always checking the you know, the leaderboards, and you know, I know that there's the West Coast Swing and then there's the Florida Swing, and then there's the Masters. And

I was happy with that. I didn't I didn't like need a a another tour, and and I didn't need more tournaments um and team play and fifty four hold tournaments. I mean, I just think, I mean, I again, I don't I haven't spoken to other golf fans about this, but when I look at these, you know, when I you know, obviously I've paid a lot of attention to the live tour stuff. You know, I think it's a fan of like, who needs this? It was not broken

in the first place. Now obviously you you you know, money changes everything, as they say, But I just find it sort of the whole thing kind of unnecessary and irritating as a fan. Go ahead of Michael Well, I mean, golf for a long time, the PHA Tour, you know, I think Al and I would both very much agree this. It got boring, It got arrogant. We had all the cards we're gonna you know, we're dictating to the world

how this whole thing plays out. The President's Cup, you know, the international team is dictated, the rules by which their team is even assembled is dictated by the PHA Tour. Tim Fincher became a member of Augusta National almost in me to leap on retirement. There's a lot not to like, and there's a lot to like Jordan's speech and what you know, the way camp Smith plays golf, there's a lot to liken the three officer drawn drawn to golf and golfs like. But this is a long winded preamble

of the following. Jeff, what you described as the American golf fans point of view, and what Greg Dorman would be here to tell you is that he grew up in Australia, he played the Australian Tour, he played the European played the American Tour, and it's not fair to the rest of the world that everyone's got to come to the United States to play the game's best tour, just like everybody's got to come to the NBA to

play the best basketball. Um. But I think I would argue, maybe, Jeff, you would two, golf works well in a regional system of European Tour, Nation Tour, an American Tour, and it has worked well, and we don't need all this, I think would be my shorthand except for this OUTI see, my opinion, the capitalist tool that is the pro golf tour and golf period and it's like, yeah, let's get let's get more of that, or let's own that. I

think you said it perfectly, Jeff. I mean, nobody really wanted this, but it's here and it can and there. It comes with so many interesting questions, some of which you've helped us. And one guy, one guy wanted it out, Yeah, Greg, Yeah, and he, I mean he's you know, hats wanted it for twenty five years, right, and to his credit, he's never given up on it and he's gotten it much much farther than anybody would have gone credit for for doing. I agree, and I think you know, Johnygree, Phil Cholson

wanted it us. There's been other agents of change, you know, working in the background here. So some people wanted the average fan didn't. But it's been you know, foisted upon us and we're trying to make sense of it. Also, Jeff, thank you so much for your your insight, um in guiding us through the legal mind fields. And you're also a great representative just of a serious fan because Michael and I are so in the weeds. Nice to talk to someone who follows it, but also as questions and

so that was that was edifying. Let me tell you, let me say one other thing about Tube and having played golf them a number of times. You know, there's that character in Men in Green. I can't remember his name, but he's the annoying guy who just hits it straight, has got a plan all the time, will never make worse than bogey on any hole. That's your Jeff Tuban. It's like, what did you shoot? The range is eight six? The fact that I had two seven's today, um like

it is a refutation of that. But I appreciate the the the misleading compliment. Higley's highly cerebral golf. Unlike your emotional writer friend, al I wish I was less cerebral and world talented. Already, guys, see you later. Thanks, that's good. Alright, this has been another fire Drill podcast. Thank you to Jeffy Tuban and Michael Bamberger Zalen Chipnuk. Want to think part points. Who's our our longtime sponsor, our favorite golf scoring app you've heard just talk about it. It's great fun.

You should definitely check it out for a highly cerebral golfer. It would add a whole new layer to the game. And uh, Michael and I endorse it so so listeners out there, thanks for sticking with us to the bitter end. Here. We will certainly be back at it as the story continues to evolve, and I have a feeling this will not be the last time we go to Jeff for some for some counsel. Uh so uh that's a rap from Carmel, California, Willington, Delaware. And where are you, Jeff?

New York City, New York City. We got them all covered, all right, Thanks for listening. Foe bye. Then Big and Play to Win. Made a fortune with my ship game, and I ran a table and thought I could fall them to win. A time hit me like a cannon. The ball and now and Shake is losing the street. Every real I take is a dead end stream. I got thoughts in my head. Can't get him out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about. I gott thoughts

in my head. I can't get him out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about.