Fire Drill 038: Blood on the Floor

have lots of money, We have tradition and legitimacy. Um, how can we connect those two and make it great that he can't get jan nothing. What I'm thinking that he can't get them, I'm thinking Hello and welcome back to their Fire Drill podcast. This is Alan Schipnak. I have Michael Bamberg in Philadelphia and Jeff Ogilvie in Oz on the line. It's a huge day in golf. Tiger Woods flew into delaw Are, probably his first trip to Delaware. We could we could surmise um to be to have

an audience with some of the game's biggest names. In the ongoing battle for the soul of golf between the PGA Tour and Live Golf. Patrick Reid, who had Brandell, Shamblee and the Golf Channel in Federal court. That just happened this afternoon. Who knows what else is gonna happen more. We're taping this podcast. There's so much going on, but uh, let's let's let's start with Jeff. You know, uh, you've you've been close to Tiger, You've observed him in different settings.

He seems to really have taken on this this this role as the de facto commissioner, and um, what do you make of this evolution of Tiger from just this this golfer who lived in this bubble of his own making, who has now become the statesman and it's really trying to have a larger impact on the sport. Well, I think it's nice, and I mean it's uh, he's clearly always been a legacy guy like him, he had Nicholas

has right going up on his wall. Like the reverence and respect he's got for the b g A Tour and sort of the traditional tournaments and all the way up has obviously been quite obvious. And he sees he doesn't like the direction. I don't think he hates Oh, this is meet guessing about Tiger. But I don't think he would hate the whole the financial windfall side of this thing. I just think he would be disappointed in the fact that it's a legacy tarnishing situation, you know.

I mean, there's such a great tradition to the tour and he's one of the most important players on the tour of all time. To sort of see that get broken up, I think would have hit him pretty hard. And it's nice. He's probably got the strongest voice. I mean, a lot of the players who are affected by this probably don't know him that well. You know, he's sort of a lot of these kids are gonna be young.

I mean the kids this is really affecting the most as the ones in their twenties and early thirties, and a lot of them button that have really have been out there when Tiger was playing a lot. I think his weight and his sort of presence just in the room, to actually just fly in and get in the room would be pretty powerful for sort of Jay and that to his sort of things. So I think it's cool.

It's cool that he's uh not just sitting back and observing that he's actually actively farting for something he belaves him, which I think is pretty cool, Michael. I mean, you literally wrote a book on Tiger, the Second Life of Tiger Woods, coming back from from some of his travails, and now he's moved into this final act of his career. It's clear he's not gonna be playing a lot of tournament golf going forward, and it's almost like he's looking for his his role. What do you make of of

of where Tiger is right now? Together, we've written two books on Tiger, uh, but not really uh, Jeff Allen, I wrote a book, The Swinger, that features acational golf name treat dream Up. You know, I was really struck by that already five second clip. That's that's I think a million nearly a million people have already viewed of him just getting off a plane and getting into a Nissan rental car with Ricky Fowler as his eide kick.

He's wearing a flannel shirt, he's not wearing a hat, and it looks like he's put on a little woods since we've last seen him in public, and he looks like an old NFL star showing up for you know, a Hall of Fame induction. I mean, I was just in there's that and in just the aging of Tiger Woods. You know, we're we're all enough where we've seen him as a kid. Now here is in his in his mid forties preparing for this leadership role. So the evolution of Tiger Woods, I think it's fastening al and I

think he really hit on it. He's a very smart person. He's charismatic in his own sort of way, and he's got to have to he has a lot of thoughts. Of course, he's an intelligent person. Uh So he's looking for a future in the game. He I don't know how much he knows that, but if you look at his record, he's barely played since two thousand and sixteen. It's a miracle that he you know, he contended when he did in those two majors, and then one the

one that he that he could win. Uh and then just one other quick note on tire, just the fact that just the fact that that video exists shows you the intensity that surrounds Tiger Woods and this particular setting because he gets off from private plans for other occasions and doesn't get a videotape, but he shows up at a hospital or he shows up for me like this,

and the intrusion of it all. You know, here, here's a camera through a fence into a private rental car, and none of the three of us could imagine even living a life like that. Sorry for going on so long here, but I'm just struck. We have so few moments of actually seeing Tiger Woods, and the fact that, as you say, this major day in golf politics, that Tiger has risen and sort of taken over the stage is telling on a number of different levels. Yeah, and

it's so funny, you know, the Tiger Phil rivalry. It's they in some way, it seemed like there there was this reapproachment and they were gonna they were gonna play exhibition golf into their into their sixties happily. And and now this schism is even bigger. You know, Fields gone to the dark side and a lot of people pop

their imagination and Tigers fighting the good fight. And when you talk about legacy, I mean I always assumed they would be the honorary first tea starters at the Masters for you know, the next thirty years, whenever they were ready for it. And you have to wonder, is Phil going to get that chance now? And same with they're

both gonna be incredible rider Cup captains. You know, Tiger may may have four or five cracks at it now because other guys have taken themselves out of the mix, and so Tiger has gone all in with the tour and and building this legacy feel has gone completely the other direction. And that just strikes me as someone who's followed them for their whole careers. But um, you didn't mention Tiger's jeans, which are always always commented upon he's got.

I thought they very I thought they were very style. I mean, I know he's been mocked over the years, but I didn't note that they were properly fitting. And the shirt seemed to be I didn't know you could get a tailored flannel shirt, but he seems to be wearing a tailor flannel. She was like, he's evolved from mom jeans two dad jeans. It's better, but there's still

a ways to go. But um, I mean, Jeff, this this becomes the overarching question in golf is, uh, what does that stake for these guys who have gone to live Are they really giving up history and legacy? Will there be a reapproachment? And we're starting to get early word what was said in in the rooms today, but we don't really know for sure. I mean, what is your take on is there a way back to unifying the sport where um you know, I mean, look at

the European Writer Cup team. They've lost whole generation of captains potentially from Poulter and Garcia and Westwood and Kaimer and your President's Cup assistant captain. I mean potentially the President's Cup team this year is is could be missing a lot of great players, and um, it's not good for the game to have have this this cleave. Do you do you see a way back? I like the

word cleave. Um, there has to be a way back, Like I don't There's too many players have gone now and I feel like in a couple of weeks after it's like, I mean, obviously this is amazing to ay to prevent any more sort of players jumping, but it seems like there's some that have already decided that they're going to go they haven't gone yet, that have been talked about. There's going to be too many players on the lift side for them not to be some sort

of compromise reunification down the road. I mean, I just cannot imagine the Masters running without twenty of the best fifty players in the world. I mean, they might not be reflected in the Visigal World Golf rankings, but they're just not going to do that. The Majors, I think, are the ones that are the real sort of a trump card for both sides really, because that's really they're

the jewels of the sport. I just can't imagine them wanting to sort of undermine their torment by not having twenty or thirty of the best players in the world in their fields. So maybe for a year or something, but I just don't think that would go on in Definitely, the Other Cup is too important. The Presidents comes very important to the PGA Tour. I can't I don't know.

I mean, it seems like a very long way away from sort of any sort of compromised reunification situation right now, but it's changing so rapidly daily that I think speculating about where we're going to be in the future is really difficult. I do know, I get the strong feeling from any sort of live related people that I talked to, not that I'm talking to on that respect for people who are more in the inner circle than I am that they're not going to go away. UM, they're here

for the long term. UM. They're pretty committed to this. They think they've got a good idea, they're very well funded. Clearly, UM, they're not just going to come well that didn't work and go do something else. I think they're here for a long time. And I don't think that golf is too strong. Golf is too strong as a sport to stay fractured like that for too long. UM. I don't know what the past to that pathway that to that is, and it might take a year or two, but I

think there's just too much. They've got too many players on their side now live for them to be completely sort of blackboard from golf for the rest of time.

I just don't think that's going to happen. But Jeff can I can jump in here with the question regarding what some of you just said, if the majors of the Crown Jewels you want the best players in the world playing your majors of course players championship, I would I would say the same, How good do we know Henrik Stenson or Charles World So are really right now on a world stage by beating forty seven other guys

over fifty four holes. In other words, let's say you can go down this road of some kind of unification, but how are you going to figure out really how to assess the quality of those fields with only forty eight players and only fifty four holes. It's such a different I mean, I would imagine, I don't know, this is title speculation that that live won't stay true to its name. It's fifty four, it will end up seventy two.

I'm sure the fields will get a little bit bigger, which will be part of some sort of come from my situation, and they'll probably end up looking like w g cts um. This would just be a guess sort of some sort of negotiation with the Official World Golf Ranking sort of situation, and so it will be it

will turn more into a normal golf tournament. I imagine if they want to coexist, it's going to have to write They're going to have to move a little bit um because the players, they won't continue to get players if it comes clear in the next tour months that

they're never going to get into majors. Ever, they're kind of they're in a bit of a they've got a bit of a problem, you know, And if they just have to adjust their product a little bit to get their players to be able to access the majors, then I think they'll be fine. Um, Jeff go on, that's a great insight, because if if the studies are in for a billion or two billion, what's it to them to come in for three billion. That's a pressure point actually in favor of the PG two ur They're saying,

we've got something. You want world golf ranking points, but if you want them, you've got to put up even more. And there what's another billion of them? I don't know. Billion dollars a lot of money to most people. But if they're committed to this for the long term, it seems like they are. I imagine that they would move

to a more palatable product. I mean, maybe their idea is that it's a stale product and it needs to be different, But um, if they want the best players in the world, they're going to have to sort of

just to a format that's respected and recognized by the majors. Um, I would think, I mean, this is just guesswork, but yeah, I just think that they've got too many players on their side now when I understand what you're saying about their older players, but there's going to be some younger ones, particularly one that's been strongly rumored who wanted st Andrew's if that ends up actually happening, that's arguably the best player in the world at the moment, or very close

to going over, who's clearly got ten fifteen, ten years at least of prime to go, and whoever goes along with him after we see east Lake. Um, it's this, it's truly cleve like, it's truly in half? Right is Cleveman in half? Is that half? Or is it just split? Yeah? And more like a split. I mean, cleavage would be a derivative of it. So if you can can get that mental image. But um, yeah, well, I mean let's so let's talk about cam Smith because you guys are

different generations. Um, but you're from the same island and you know, people around live have told me it's a done deal. Now things can change and that was actually before the open so who knows, you know, whatever deal might have been in place, that could have gotten torn up and maybe they added another zero. I mean, it's not just that he's possibly the best player in the world, It's also that he's young, as also that he's defending

champion at the Open Championship. So when you get into well the live guys get to play majors, there's no scenario that the RNA does not want Cam Smith to defend his title, and they're gonna have to. That's a workaround that's gonna have to be part of this whole calculation. But you know everything we've heard about Cam he's just this low key guy who just wants to fish. He doesn't care about money. Um, of course we all care about money on some level, but he doesn't seem like

the ideal candidate for live golf. But um, let's just say for this thought exercise that he is going and he is making the jump. What do you think the appeal is for Cam Smith? Well, I think for guys like that, they obviously, I mean, we're not proving to the conversations that they're having. We don't know lives plans apart from what they've told put out in public. We

don't know what they have planned. They might have some amazing The road map that they've sold these guys that were on the way to this premium tour might maybe it ends up seventy two holes. Maybe it ends up slightly bigger fields. Maybe there's we don't know what they're telling them. They're obviously selling them more than just money. You know. Um, I don't know what would go through.

Like I wasn't in camps position. I mean, I say, my peak of my powers after the US Open or something of someone had come up and said, I've got a hundred million dollars for you to come and play this other tour over here. That would have been a pretty hard thing to say no to. I mean, that's pretty signal forget money. I mean, we're not all about

the money. Um. But on one level, professional golfers termed professional one so they can play the biggest events, but two so they can not have a real job and actually get golfers and get paid paid. You know, Like, um, if if there have been assured that you're going to get in all the majors, well argue, but I don't know how they are and A and or that are going to keep exempt players out, you know, like the Masters,

like they're they're already exempt. I understand. Like if if you drop out of the world rankings, out of the top fifty by playing not playing regular ranking scoring tournaments. They can say, well, you didn't qualify for the Masters, is sure you can't get in you're not in the top fifty. But for Dustin Johnson a minute, or Patrick Read or Shortz or or there's a lot of green coat jackets that they're not going to have at the tournament.

I don't imagine they're going to do that, you know, I mean camp they are and are going to say, well, if you're already exempt, you get into, but you won't be able to get into the top fifty in the world if you're not playing regular tournaments, you know. So I think I think the majors are just they've got time on their side. Is it's all sort of coming to a head at the moment. We've got all the way till April for four Masters have to make a

call on that. It's interesting. I don't know. In Cam's head, I don't know. I've never had a hundred million dollar check plus put in front of me, so I don't know what I would do. Um And as I said, if there's sort of plans down the road to sort of expand the model of live that we've seen, maybe there's phase two looks a lot more attractive. You know, maybe they know stuff that we don't know. Um, but

makes it a bit easier to go do that. But it's clearly not a very easy decision because if it's actually true that he's going, and he's been given his offered his money that we've been off he probably would have just gone, you know, like why why why wait around for FedEx Cup money which is totally insignificant for from the lift money, you know what I mean. So he's obviously it's obviously a hard decision. Um, I don't know, he's a knock around buck and he's a he's a

good guy. I think it's an interesting one because he's a sort of I feel like he's one of those universally loved players. Have we had a really universally loved player who's young go there yet? You know, Like I mean, DJ is pretty universally DJ is pretty universally loved. But there's some a little bit of tiny bit of baggage maybe with DJ, but everyone else does that mean there's Patrick Reid and a lot of like from an American perspective, Bryce and I mean, no one really truly universally loved

but now Cam. Everybody loves Cam, you know, and there's I imagine on the lip side of things, there's a there's a feeling that it might change public sentiment a little bit if Cam went, you know, and Leash. Everybody loves Leash, you know, like to put him and he's always seems to be in that same Cam Unleash. You're going to go conversation. Um, I don't know, it'll be interesting.

The more popular, the more players that have, and the more popular characters they get on their side sort of the more leverage they've got for a compromise, you know, um, because at some point the PGR two sponsors are going to come out and say, we'll hang on a minute. You promised me all these players that you can't promise me. I want Cam Smith in my tournament. I want these

guys in the tournament. So it's going to create issues all down the line if you don't have twenty or thirty of the most popular players, but wherever they're ranked, if they don't have well ranking points, it doesn't matter. People are going to assume it's almost to camps fists benefit if he wasn't in the ranking, because if he keeps winning lift tournaments. People are going to assume he's the best player in the world, but he's not going to be in the rankings, so there's all sorts of

issues coming up. I don't know. It's as I said, if you had a hundred million dollar check in front of you, a lot of people would have hard time not taking that deal. Most people, I would imagine real quick. But let me just ask you this, Jeff. There's been some thinking that you know, Cam was waiting until after the President's Cup because he wants to play in that and it would be you know, it's a feather in the cap, and he would obviously be one of the

most important players on your team. Do you have any reconnaissance about where what is thinking is for the President's

Cup that you can share. We don't really. He's playing a very excellent if he is going to go before the President's Cup, he's playing an amazing game of poker, you know, like we have zero sense, Like it feels like it feels like he's going to play the President's Cup, but when you read the newspaper and stuff, it seems like it could be any day, like and now he's injured this week, which adds us to a bit of the intrigue and um, yeah, well from for all intents

and purposes, it's he's not communicating as much as like all the guys who are like sort of deep inlift conversations that they're obviously there's instructions to not communicate too much, you know. Um, but our feeling is he's going to play. But again we don't really know because it's not like there's long conversations every day with those guys. You know, Jeff who who is his number one advisor? And what

is that person? Like? Um? I will he's managed by Bud Martin, um, and I don't know you guys know, but yeah, that's a prickly one. You know, he's been Jason Day's guy for ever and various other players. I like Bud, but he's he's a little bit of a ball buster and it's tough to anything out of him. So that sort of checks out. Yeah, just just a short and this is not an insight. Uh, this would be what I think, I hope I would be like

this if I won the Players Championship. You know that the crown jewel of the PGA Tour and a Monahan or Tiger Woods or anybody said, well, you won this player's championship, you know, just like I did, and a bunch of other good players. The other things that are really important this tour are the FedEx Cup playoffs and the President's Cup. They're all sort of p J tour products. I think it would be nice if you stuck around to the end of the year. Just from the Little

Life sin to cam Smith and Press your interviews. He seems like the kind of bloke could be like, yeah, I should stick around for the end of the year. It doesn't. It doesn't seem like given that you just catch to check with three million, doesn't seem like that big and ask. I mean, look, it's a long term decision, right, this live thing. It's not. It doesn't really matter if you go this week, next week or in six months time.

It's it's it's clearly it's a career changing decision, and it changing jobs, judging jobs for changing companies that you work for. Right, So yeah, it doesn't need to happen. It's not clearly not an instant. But I imagine on the lip side of things, um, the more leverage they get. I assume that the President's Cup and the Ryder Cup was two of their targets. It feels like, um, just sort of do some damage to the President's Cup and the Ryder Cup, which because gives them a bit more

power in the room. But I don't know, I don't know, Like you said, you wouldn't You're not rushing a decision like that, and there's no need to rush a decision like that. Why wouldn't you finish out the year? I mean, you've had a great year. I mean I can't ever think of the year not starting at Cappelwa. So just all I can remember from this season is the domination at Cappeluah was just so fun to watch, Like I've seen this has been the year of Cam and Scottie Scheffley.

You know, why wouldn't you be around at the end for me? And then the President's Complement is such a fun tournament like it's and it's a quail Hollo one of the two is cooler spots, and um, yeah, I don't imagine why you wouldn't. But again I'm not in all these conversations, so like, yeah, what about what about Hideaki because he's obviously his name has been in play for a long time, and he would be an anchor for the international teams. Do you have any any insight

into which way the winds blowing around Hideki. No, there's obviously a lot of rumors, I mean, and clearly there's a lost in translation. Sometimes he's a talking about a card player, like he's brilliant at not giving anything away. A Decki um our more concern as he went back to Japan to get his neck looked at us him, I think this week, um, he's a little bit injured. I don't think we have a live concern with Dei Um.

There's clearly a massive offer. Well, there's rumors, have it, you guys for everyone's heard it that they would love that Japanese market. Um. But as far as President's Cup, her Decki has been very active on our group chats and stuff, and he's very invested in the tournament. And our concern would be injury rather than him not being available for sure, I mean we need he's one of the best players in the world. Oh yeah, yeah, he

has a presence about him. When when you look at the international players who have gone to live and it's effect on the President's Cup, maybe answer has certainly been a key guy for you guys. Um possibly used, maybe Ortiz, maybe Grace. Are those the four the four that hurt anyone else? I'm forgetting. I think the two that really hurt Louis and Um. Louis has been in a lot, and he's sort of he was the class clown, the spirit in the bus. You know, he was bringing everyone

together just by just not taking anything too seriously. He was a fun guy on the team, and he's been there a lot. And Louis, for whatever he's probably arguably in a way may be underachieved and just regular things, but as soon as it becomes a big moment, Louie is about as good as it gets. And he's a big moment guy, and the president comes about big moments. Louis and Abe, and Abe was obviously great last time.

We had that little sort of back and forward the Tiger a little bit, and they had that great singles matter and it was a sort of a great sort of atmosphere there for their match last time, and he was probably really excited about it. So they're they're they're a loss for sure, and look not to cry poor on talent, but our top twelve in the US Top twelve. We're a little, probably bit behind, a tiny bit on talent, but once you start removing people from the team, it's

the U S team is so deep. I mean, the second twelve are pretty strong in the US team, you know, I mean, whereas ours drops off a little bit more. So it probably hurts us. I mean, I know the US team has probably lost a couple of guys, but it probably hurts us a little bit more. But there's going to be a pretty strong feeling I imagine in our team that nobody thinks we can win, So like, come on, guys, let's show them. And we all know that anyone's capable of bending anyone else on any given day.

And I think match plays more about headspace m anyway. So it's going to be it's gonna be a different looking team than we imagine six months ago, probably missing a couple at the moment, hopefully only a couple, um, but I think it will be as I said, I mean, anyone in the top fifty players in the world can have a good day and beat anybody else, you know, And if you get that spirit, We've seen it with great team, have seen it with a rat Cup in with Europe, a lot of times there that they had

zero chance on paper, but they would completely dominate. I think there's a chance for our team to create that sort of feeling because of what's going on, you know, So it'll be interesting. This is so off the news. You may be annoyed that I'm even asking the question, but I am curious, as Jeff, what's your overall take on Cam Smith playing that ball right off the red line, not knowing the ruling, and then getting the penalty a day later. Um, I don't love that stuff. Um, well,

there's too so. I mean, as a general high level of feeling of the rules. UM, I always feel like if the player didn't get an unfair advantage, then they shouldn't be penalized, you know. I mean that the rules are really there so people don't get unfair advantages, you know, effectively. Um, it's actually difficult to play off the paint. The paint

is a bit stickier. You'd rather not be on the paint. Um. I don't think anyone in that field would have said, oh, sure, camp delets a two shot penalty there, you've got an advantage for doing that. So I don't really love that the idea, but the other side of that is we're golfers who grow up knowing that the rules are the rules and the way they are, and it's our responsibility to know the rules, and if we don't, if we're not sure, we got to ask an official, and there's

never an official too far away. So it's it's kind of on Cam forgetting it wrong. I think it's definitely on Camp for getting wrong, and probably arguably it does have a penalty if you get it wrong. But I think on a high level, I don't think we should get penalties for stuff like that because I don't think he's getting advantage out of I think the rules committee is looking at again, you know what, you broke the rule, Cam. Next time, you've got to make sure you know on

the line. And but it's not like he's cheating the field by hitting it off the line, you know, Whereas if you take it wrong, dropping you closer to the hole, or there's some sort of sort of violation that clearly like you've got the wrong grooves in your wedge or all those things, are your ball rolls closer to the hole in the grain or something like one of those things.

I think there's a there's an argument, could he's got an advantage out of it, But it's a little bit like the dustin thing, right, it's a completely different rule. But like no one in the field got dustin, didn't get advantaged by his ball rolling on the green there oak, but there was no advantage to it. Um. But that's more of a high level discussion and that specific Okay, was that enough on the fence? That was a bit

on the fence? Just very briefly, what is the logic by which if you take really if you must take complete full relief? Um, I don't know. You have to ask the s g A and the RNA. I've always got ground under repair, was always a complete relief situation because the ground is under repair and the superintendent of the course wants you to stay off that area. So if you drop your ball out of it, get out of it. You know, um has it? I'm not really sure to be honest, because you're allowed to play out

of a hazard. You know, if the balls on the other side of the line and he was chipping from if his ball had ended up an inch on the other side of the line, and it just state that he just would have chipped it, And that's fine. Um, but I guess if you're taking relief, I guess that theory is if you take relief, you have to take relief. I don't know, it's you have to ask them blue coats.

The other part that's interesting about this is, you know, the rules of golf have evolved where they're trying to take away the fan at home from calling in violations, and you know the Lexie Thompson rules basically ended that practice. But you have this actual PG to a rules official who's watching a late night replay, and that's where the violation was flagged. Like, to me, that kind of falls under the LEXI really, I mean he is an official,

but it didn't happen during the competition. He was no longer the person saw the infraction, was no longer at the tournament site. You know, he's on his couch, and like, um, you know you've you've to me it violates the spirit of the new rule, which is we don't want people at home calling penalties. I guess because this is a

tour official, it's slightly different. But um, even that, you know that you can make an argument that one once two hours, four hours whatever, once someone's had dinner, whatever, the line of demarcation is like the statue of limitation should expire, but in this case it went led all the way into the next day, which is the nightmare scenario because it not only did it affect of the pairings, but uh, you know, more to the point, all the people who are wagering on the final round and the

outcome put their money down before knowing about the penalty, and it just got super duper messy. I mean, what does your take, Jeff on just the ability to um beyond this particular rule and the red line. But should we be able to retroactively award penalties when new information emerges? Probably not, You're right, I mean, it's too complicated and messy.

And from a player's perspective inside the ropes, generally speaking, if you're playing partners are fine with it, it should be fine, you know what I mean, And there should be you've got you've always got a feeling when a guy is taking a drop if you're not very happy

with it or you're happy with it as a player. Um, If if you're playing partners are fine with it, and it goes and the scorecards go in, I mean they're in, you know, like I think there should AH certainly be well, I thought we did have their statute limitations, but I assumed that. But I imagine the rules official is different from just a random caller. Um. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think you should be able to get a pendley basically after your scorecards in really if there's any issue, Um,

there's a lot of people watching professional golf tournaments. That was on the broadcast. By issue, obviously it was on the broadcast because he saw it on a replay. If it's not caught in the broadcast and the school by the time it gets in, I guess it should be over. Um, But I don't know. Are there situations where what if somebody gets found out the next morning to have a drive that doesn't pass the test, or you know what I mean, he's been using it all week, or I

don't know. There's obviously going to be exceptions to the black and white rule, common sense and to pro viole at some point, as I said, there's no advantage, he had no advantage ing enough not having it half an inch more away from the line, there's no it's almost the disadvantages they're playing off the paint, and I don't think any player in the field would have kid that he played it from there, you know, it isn't that the point of the rules? Yeah, but just to to

to play Devil's advocate here. If if that becomes the standard, then you have to have someone to adjudicate all these decisions, like there's a rule, but did you get an advantage or not? And then you're gonna have to go to a tribunal. Who's gonna have to decide these things? Um? You know, if the rules a rule and either you

break it you didn't, it's pretty black and white. But if you get into intent advantage, then then it's starting to get a little murky, right, and someone's gonna have to to answer those questions in real time over and over. I this, Yeah, Well, I don't know. I just think it's all take it just a little bit too seriously. Sometimes I think, like you've said it here, like the wagering.

I think whenever you introduced gambling to any sport, the the rules officiating an adjudication of the rules in the sport just gets over the type. I mean, you know, you have to watch NFL for ten minutes to realize that you almost can't have a rule, a decision that's not viewed over fifty four times to make sure that it's like by the letter of the law. It would be a shame if golf went that way, But if you want to introduce gambling to a sport, that's where

it's going to end up. Hopefully there's a common sense situation where we can just basically play golf like we normally do. Ercent of golfers I've ever played with fastidious about the rules, and they there they would they wouldn't improve their life, no one was watching because they just wouldn't feel like a proper golfer if they did it.

I hope we can retain that spirit and everyone can understand that that's really none know I'm putting on percent a golfer's perspective is that I wouldn't be I couldn't sleep at not if I knew I'd done something wrong. And I'm sure Cam's designment, but we just innocently just

didn't know he did anything wrong. In that situation, you know, I'd be a shamed if we went that way, where we actually have the video review every rule, and have rules officials in every group and have someone standing our view every time you take a drop, and I think it would be a shame. Okay, Well, since we're talking about the rules and um and how players view themselves and their reputations, let's just get to this lawsuit that

Patrick read filed against Brandal Shambilee and Golf Channel. Um. You know, it's it's interesting because then he's gonna have to he's opening us all to a lot of scrutiny here. But what was interesting. I read through the whole thirty page brief, and um, it's it's interesting reading. I'll say that. I mean, you know, Reid has there's a couple different attentions. One is that that Shamble and the Golf Channel have damaged his reputation and cost him a lot of money

in the marketplace. That might be easier to prove than because what they keep coming back to is he didn't intentionally cheat. Uh that he was he was exonerated by rules officials on the scene or they gave him two stroke penalty for not knowing the rule, but they didn't

just qualify him for purposely cheating. So it's a very interesting thing because they cite in this in this, in this lawsuit, over and over the fact that that he was exonerated by the rules officials and or Okay, he broke the rule, it was a mistake, he accepted the penalty, but that making mistakes not the same as cheating, and

you can't prove intent. So this is gonna get this is gonna play out in you know, federal court some of these some of these things you're talking about, Jeff, which what is your take on on a player taking taking this issue into the court system. So I don't know, This is why ants out of my realm of normal thinking about golf. I uh, I'll leave that one to those guys. I think it's a shame. Uh, it's a shine. Yeah, I mean look, I think yeah, I don't know. I

don't know. I don't know where to go on. I think journalists should be allowed to do their job and if they say something and they want to say something, that should be alowed to say something. There's obviously always been some sort of protections for journalists and there should be. That's your role is to sort throw an opinion out there. So I don't know, it's it's murky. I'll just stay away. As I said, I think journalist should be able to

say what they want, but obviously there's within reason. You know, I don't know all the specifics. You read the thing. You probably can say more to this than I can, because you've read the brief, which is an impressive thing to do in itself. I'm a legal analyst. Now you know. I was up in the Courtrooan San Jose, so I've I'm taking out a new role here. Michael, what do

you think about this? I know that part of your discomfort with this, the whole emergence of Live is that it's just the gentleman's game, and now everyone's mad at each other and pointing fingers and there's a lot of unhappiness and rancor. So this just adds another log on the fire. What's your take on this list? I think Brandon has done a very good job of standing up not for quote traditional values, but that the rules of Sacro sanct and even Nick Falda right there in the

moment was part of me. If I don't have this correct, but I think that I do. I think it was Nick Faldo was saying it's extremely unusual, and Jeff would attested this. I I believe he would. I'm sure he would it's extremely unusual to see a player touching golf ball. You know, it's like almost like a soccer football player, uh, touching a football um with his hand during play without

bringing people over to do it first. So, you know, just talking about the San Diego event and then going and then going to the Bahamas event, I assume they're they're discussed. I have not read the brief yet. Alan Kudosi here for doing so. Um uh. But then in the Bahamas event, you know again, Ricky Fowler was commenting on how bizarre it was for that clubhead to make contact with the sand before he played the before he played the shot. So um. To Jeff's point, in our profession,

this is what we do. Uh, we comment, we interpret, we report and um. And this is like a chilling effect. And Brandall's felt it before. And um, I'm sure he lives at this to this day. But in two thousand thirteen, when Tiger had that problem um in the woods at the BMW event, maybe Jeff was playing in that event that week. Um, Brandall called it as he saw it. I would say he did his job. I basically wrote pretty much what Brandon was Branda was saying, and and

Brandall paid for it. He felt the full part of me, He felt the full weight of Mark Steinberg and Tiger Woods and the PGA Tour and Golf Channel's relationship with Tiger Woods, and um, you know, are all of our cultures, uh, in our society, in democratic societies, are based on these checks and balance systems. So we'd be lost without him.

So I agree with Jeff. It is a shame him, but it is happening, and um, you know, and it's telling again about just the fact that the suit exists reveals more about Patrick Read, how he plays golf, how he talks about golf, the way he talked to the rules official at San Diego. I mean, people reveal themselves

in all sorts of different ways. And I guess one of the things you have to take from this lawsuit is not what does this say about Brande shamble in Golf Channel, but what does it say about Patrick Reed? The fact that he even filed the suit? Right, and you know his choice of lawyers. It's this arch conservative who filed the number of lawsuits against Hillary Clinton and he's been involved in a lot of uh messy litigation.

So um, it is revealing. But what was what was fascinating is it reads more like a public relations document, and that the whole thing that Tiger and Brandle is cited in some detail in Our friend Mark Steinberg is

quoted at length and it's quite interesting. But the bulk of the brief is really about live golf, and they they are asserting that the co defendants, Brandle and the and the Golf Channel are conspiring with the PGA Tour to damage live golf, and that some of the things that Brandle said about MBS, the Saudi Arabian government calling them, you know, murderers and everything like that, by association there,

they're now putting that label on Patrick Reed. And so even it's just incredible the tentacles of this story, how they keep spreading throughout the golf and the sports world. So now there's I was joking about being legal analysts, but not entirely because this is the second legal brief I've read in the span of a week, because I was in the courtroom when that injunction was heard about. You know, the three live guys were trying to force their way into the into the PGA Tour, Fedics Cup events,

and so it's just a wild time. I mean, ordinarily we'd be talking about, you know, golf courses and golf shots. I mean that hasn't even discussed on this podcast because all these macro developments that it just kind of makes my head spin. I get uh, and it sends. Patrick read his second page right out of the Trump playbook.

I was with Trump at his web course was at the West Pond Beach Course, and as I remember, his West Bond Beach Course had been in the top hundred on the Golf Digest lists, and that had fallen, by Trump's accounting to one oh one, so it wasn't on the list. And he said the reason was because Ron Witten had made a thirty six on the eighteenth pole

by depositing twelve consecutive balls into a water hazard. And then he said that Ron Witton skipped lunch and went to the range and came back for the dessert course and had worked everything out by that point. But anyway, a digression to say that Trump was going to sue Golf Digest in Shrump's so language, of course, was as you know, essentially a pr campaign saying that it was a rig system. And I don't I don't know. I

don't believe it is a rig system. But but but Trump was going to contend that it was and that they were conspiring to keep Trump out of the top hundred. Uh So it looks like Pat reed based on about the same Yeah. Yeah, And it's I mean, Jeff, you're

you know, you're you're an insiders insider. I mean, you're a President's Cup captain, and even though you haven't been playing as much competitive golf, I mean, you're you're part of this very exclusive fraternity as a US Open champion and and all these things, and um, you know, for us, this is all a gift from the content gods. I mean, it's been. It's it's made this whole year incredibly interesting,

and it's it's not going to quit. Clearly for you as as someone who's on the outside looking in from Australia, but he's also you know, in these inner sanctums in the team rooms and whatever. How does all this hit you emotionally? Where this this very chaotic moment in golf. It's it's just kyote, It's crazy. Um, I just hope there's not too much blood on the floor at the end of it, you know, I mean, I can't see

golf and not finding its way through this. I mean, it's too old, it's too good, there's too much tradition, it's too loved around the world. It's just all this carnage and this this personal attacks on people. I just think it's sad, Like you say that we're not sitting here talking about the merits of the FedEx Cup playoffs and the upcoming President's Cup and um reminiscing on the

Scheffler Smith sort of year of domination. And I don't know, it's like, I just hope we can find our way through with the p g A Tour not taking too much damage because I think it's the best game in town. It always has been. I think there's the tradition. Um, that's some great tournaments, some really old tournaments have been around a long time. You've just got go the way back to like Jack and Arnold sort of formalizing it, but even back to Sneed and Nelson and Hogan and

all that. I mean, I just think there's too much tradition for it to be too jeopardized. And I sure, I just hope that it ends up relatively undamaged. Um. I don't wish Ill Will of any of the global I think the global golf schedule could benefit from golf outside the US. You know, does it need to be forty five weeks a year in the US, I don't know, but I just had that core PGA to schedule tournaments.

I really hope that it stays the thing, you know, um, whether it looks like it does as I said, if it covers the whole year, or there's some room for other stuff in there. There probably should be other stuff in there, really when you think about it, but I just hope there's just not too much blood on the floor and too many players don't get canceled and we have played this doesn't become the norm that we're sing journalists for deformation of character and um this, I just

hope golf doesn't go that direction. It's just too nice a support for it to get so nasty, you know, like, why can't we just go play golf. The whole pot of golf is just getting together with your friends and having a good time. Like at this point, the end of the competitive thing, it's somehow golf had retained that purity that most other sports hadn't, and that's sort of we've been dragged into the sort of the fray a little bit by this whole thing. So I just hope

there's not. As I said, there's just not too much damage. The PGR two states the number one game in town. I'd loved. I think it's cool that other stuff could potentially happen around outside that and players can make a lot of money. I'm a professional golfer. I love the idea that someone wants to put a billion or two or three billion into golf. I mean, that's just amazing.

The ability to take a catchphrase from the live side of things, to grow the game or at least two put events on where they haven't had events, have more players is arguably, forty eight players making golf is now going to make more money. There's gonna be forty eight more spots on the pg I two And that's good, right, you know why? Um yeah, I'll just type of this it all. We we get out the other end of this with a sensible golf landscape without too much damaged

down along the way. See, I think, Jeff you made a very generous comment that, of course Greg Norman would never never agree with that. These core American tournaments that we've known for years that we three have known for years.

And of course, Jeff, you've lived in this country, uh maybe almost half your life, probably not quite that um, but l A and Fort Worth and you know, Chicago and Honolulu and lots of other events, twenty or more Hill in the head plus the majors, three of the majors anyway, Well, Greg Norman has been saying since the mid nineties, aided and embedded by by seven when they were you know, the two most charismatic players in the game.

Is the PGA Tour should not be the star of all tours and there really should be a world tour. And that's really where this thing has been headed in Greg Norman's mind from the beginning. And I think that is really what's in jeopardy here. Is the pH A Tour still going to be the king of the Hill

of professional golf? Or will something supplanted? So if if those if that's the if, those are the two sites of this fight, this fight will have a very ugly end or there will be some kind of major, major reconciliation. And and and I don't know, I don't know what the saudis uh backed by Greg Norman's uh ferocious campaign would actually accept because it takes two sides to have some kind of peace treaty. That's true. But I mean

what the Saudis want more than anything is legitimacy. They want to be well, they want to see at the table. They want to be part of the Western world. And what would be a greater embrace than by all the governing bodies of the sport and the royal and ancient and uh, you know, all these tweety fellows. Um, I think that, would you know? That would be the ultimate

validation that they have arrived in a certain ways. So I think that I think they would be happy to make it work with with the PGA Tour and the other governing bodies if such an offer is presented. But um, how that would work from business standpoint and how the how the pie would get divvied up. But they would certainly get a cut of this gigantic TV contract that the tour enjoys, and that's something that saluted to live

golf so far. So I think a compromise would be attractive. Now, whether Gregg himself would want to do that, you know, he seems to enjoy the joustings, so I don't know. But I didn't. I didn't want to ask you that, Jeff, because um it's funny. I did a radio interview this afternoon and then Peter Jacobson heard it and he called me up. And if you think about the most amiable kind of guys in golf, I mean, Jake has no edge, but he was fired up, but he wanted to really

talk about this stuff. And one thing you said about Norman, which I thought was really interesting, was I don't understand where his anger comes from. You know, it seems like Greg's always been so angry, and um, you know some of that has played out now in in this public space. I mean, what is what is your take on Greg Norman as a person, what drives him and why he's still fighting this fight into his late sixties. Firstly, I mean I've been good friends with Greg for a long

time and he was a fantastic captain for US. But he was our hero growing up in Australia. I mean he was he was Tiger before Targo Kanada. I mean, he was number one in the world for ten years pod part, but he had the biggest crowds. I mean, history isn't looking very favorably on his record, but he's he was an unbelievable player for long time. Mean, he was out here. It was like a movie start persona.

And so when I got to play with him and he was out, Captain the President's come for a couple of presents, carps and stayed at his house and it was kind of close there for a few years. It was incredibly generous, amazingly capable sort of guy this and

he was great. He's always been great to me. The obviously, at some point when he was number one in the world, something bugged him, or something got under his skin, or somebody talked to him, and it just became his mission right world tour sort of situation, U anti pot of adra, I've got a better idea, and this is right. I think there's just a stubborn element that I'm right, you're wrong kind of thing to this. You know, he's clearly probably got a lot of good ideas. I don't know.

I mean, he was a number one in the world for a long time. He's got access to a lot of really highly high powerful people who have probably said to him at amazing dinners sometimes with presidents and CEOs and stuff, that you should do this would be great and will sponsor and blah blah blah. And he gets an idea and he said and he runs with it. Um, I don't think there's any ad intent. I think he's just carried away and he's excited that he thinks he's

got a really cool thing. Yeah, I mean, look like there probably is. I think. To save all the blood on the floor, if you if you buy into the argument that the lives so out he sided, they're not going to go away. The only answer is a compromise. If they're not going to go away, it doesn't nobody wins. If we just fight this fight for ten years, like the sooner they can get down and sit at the table and say, right, what does everybody want? You guys

have lots of money, We have tradition and legitimacy. How can we connect those two and make it great? You know, like I don't see any other fast That's the fastest way to a good solution, you know, is that they sit down and right, we've got the I mean, the pH I two has tradition, it has the tournaments, it's got the structure that the whole infrastructure and the legitimacy and the relationship with the sponsors and the TV and

like all you say. I mean, it's just so much going for the p G a tour but arguably the biggest sponsor in the world. You know, the people who dig oil out of the ground are the biggest sponsor in the world if you look at Saudi as an oil company if you like. Um, finding a way to have the PGA to benefit golf is a sport benefit from the biggest sponsor in the world wanting to get involved, I think is the fastest way to know blood bath.

I mean, it would be it would be ship if we were going for five years with this fraction sport. You know, I don't think anybody wants I understand why nobody wants to get them involved, but they are involved now, and if they're not actually going to go anywhere. The fastest way it would be better if the PGA to a controlled golf, I mean, because they've proven that they

do a pretty good job at it. You know, to have some rogue sort of situation if you force them into having if you if you bring them to the table, maybe you can get them to have legitimate tournaments in the fall or away from the really important stuff and and legitimately call it a silly season. That might be enough for them to get involved. I mean it takes years and minutes that Dallas has been a tournament for I wouldn't know eighty years or something. Barron Nelson said

on the eighteenth grade for fifty years. Like you can't build that with a check with money, you know, Like you can't recreate the Memorial in a year. You can't recreate Hilton Head or the l A Open or It's Only Open or Canadian Open. You just you can't just create tradition. You've got to earn it. And I think, um, if if if you feel like they're not going to go away and they're going to stay here, I don't understand why we wouldn't give them a chunk of the

year and let them earn their legitimacy. You know, build some tradition, earn some legitimacy, make our members a pile of money over here, But stroke place season that the serious goalf happens from January to August or whatever it is. This isn't real golf over there. You can pay pay my players, do whatever you want to do over here. That's your speed. But we do golf properly, and you have to prove to us that you can do it properly, to me that it's something in that sort of area.

Is the only way is to to avoid the most blood on the floor and to stop all this petty, petty sort of arguing and players hating players inside the locker room and crazy tweets and lawsuits and it's just messy, and it's just it needs to just the faster we get to the end of it, the better. I think it might be great for journalists, as you said, it's it's a year of content. You've got no shortage of

stuff to write about, to talk about. But it's too good a sport play around with it like this to just have just to have ah ego contests on one side and the other. I think it's there. It's a shame because it's just going to be messy until it gets sorted alan from from what do you from you have seen and from what you have heard in your reporting, the PGA Tour is based on having fans on the

golf course and having people watch it on TV. That's the whole economic model and the charity model for the thing. Fans on the golf course, people watching on TV, and you need name players for those two things that happen generally speaking, sometimes that happens without really big name players. From what you've seen, what you've heard on Do the Saudis really care about those two things? Is that important to them? Well, they're they're definitely trying hard to lock

in the streaming and television component. I mean that's important to their model. And you know a Ramco just the Saudi Oil Company just had a profit of forty eight billion dollars for the second quarter. That's an all time record. So clearly they have the resources to play the long game here and they don't need a TV contract, but it gives it again, it confers legitimacy, It brings value

to the players and to the whole thing. And just from taking aside of the economic component, if you're not on TV, you don't matter like in sports right like that, you're small time. So they need a TV deal to make all this work on different levels, and they will get one. Now exactly what it looks like, who knows, but it's gonna happen um and maybe maybe it's only streaming, which is kind of the same as TV now but like you look at Apple, TV is desperate for content.

They're a big player. Um, there's a lot of there's a lot of analogous platforms they can go to that um don't have live sports. And we all know live sports is incredibly valuable because it's the one thing that people are not going to watch on their DVR and you can actually place commercials into and people have to watch, they can't they can't skip them. So live sports still

has a unique value in this very fractured media landscape. So, UM, there the fan energy and you know, I'm only one in two reports has been all through these live events so far, and they do have energy. It's an interesting mix of personalities in the in the gallery, I mean there's a sense of of the forbidden and and also sticking it to the man, like you can't tell me not to come here and enjoy myself. I'm gonna drink three beers. I don't have a damn good time. You know,

there's like there's kind of this freewheeling energy. Certainly we know the old the biggest disruptor and modern American life is Donald Trump, and and that there was kind of that feeling in the air at bed Minister, like we do things our way and we're not beholding to the system, and the fans are kind of oozing that it's really interesting. Um. And then there's there's hardcore fans. Like one thing like LIVE has done very cleverly is go to these cities

that are starved for golf. So Portland has not had a tour event and forever, and people if they want to see high level golf, they're gonna come out and watch it. You know. There's some of some of the hardos who follow me on Twitter were out there and they were just they just wanted to watch guys hit golf shots, you know, ten feet away. And you know Chicago doesn't have as tour stop anymore. Um, they're going

there soon. Boston had the US Open this year, but Boston's kind of been taken off the road to of the playoffs to a large degree. So, you know, Live they've identified some markets where there's just a pent up enthusiasm to watch great golf in person. And I think fans can compartmentalize and uh, and or they don't care, or they're actually enjoying like being out there because it's forbidden and they're not supposed to be there, Like there's just there's a lot of things that play, but I

think there will be fans. Um. It is a cool atmosphere in that you know, we've all you and I Michael have had stuffer through this many times, like uh, Tiger's team off at seven twenty and fills not teen off till and you gotta put into fourteen hour day if you want to watch both of them play golf and write about it. I mean, in this society, we're in the instant gratification. The whole thing happens in four and a half hours. Like everyone's on the golf course.

You get in, you get out. It's not a huge commitment. You're guaranteed to see the players you want to see because they're on the golf course when when you're there and it's just not that way. And at PG Turvent, especially on Thursday and Friday where there's all these the morning of the afternoon wave, I mean, you can miss players you want to see because you just can't invest the time. Like Live is solve that, and I think it's a good product for for today's you know, very

limited tention spans. So all the jokes about the shotgun are funny, but I think it's actually a pretty good product and it's certainly um it makes for a tidy, you know, viewer experience and if you're in person, So

I think I think it's gonna grow. I mean, uh, you know, if if you're a golf fan and Camp Smith's come to town, you want to go watch him, you know, hit chips and pitches, right, And I don't think you really care what uniform he is wearing on some level, like it's just it's a pleasure to watch these guys play golf and um, you know we can we don't have to go down the rabbit hole of how the Saudis are all part of our lives in different ways, from from Uber to the local gas pumps,

Like you have to compartmentalize if you're a human being and you're walking this earth, like there's um and I think sports fans are good at that. So um yeah, I think I think I think the fan experience and I will say, like the concession prices are really low,

the food is really good. Um, you know they've done the parking is free and it's easy, like they've done a lot of little things on the margins to make the experience really good for fans on the ground and so um, you know, the music on the driving range is kind of fun. They have good playlists. I've been I've been monitoring the playlist quite closely. So there's there's a lot of little things that they've done right. And there's i mean, there's I've never seen so many porta

potties at a sporting event, right. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but it is like you can ruin your whole day if you can't find a bathroom when you really need it or it's super gross. And we've all had that experience at at at sporting events. So they do care about the fan experience and they are trying hard in that regard. So I think that that that component will will continue to go. Are they shopping for Are they shopping for a gambling deal now or

a draftking pype deal now? I'm sure they are. I'm gonna've heard a lot of different things about that. I mean, it's just such a gold mine. I mean, to Jeff's point, the only thing that could probably produce same kind of revenue is oil is gambling, right, and so um, they're they're not a fuddy duddy old institution like the PGA Tour who for so long kept gambling at arm's length. Of course, now that's changed because it has to, because that's just that's where society has gone. But yeah, no doubt.

I mean it fits the sort of the Maverick brand that Live is created. Why wouldn't they have go all in with on on the gambling component as well. And do you think with with the PG two being so wedded to being a not for profit and Live being so publicly we are for profit company or we intend to make money eventually, um, do you think that makes for a cultural mis mismatch that that that would be it an obstacle to creating a PACE treaty? Yeah, I mean,

you know that was that was obviously. Jay Bonhand is known from the beginning that he's outgunned when it comes to money, and he said as much. And so his first line defend was the moral argument, you know, you'll never have to apologize for being a PGA Tour member. And he really tried to hammer that home, but it fell a little flat when so many of the guys just dismissed that right, like, um uh so there there

is this culture clash for sure. You know, the um and and the tour is is very wedded to the way it's always been done, and they are traditionalists, and they really you know, charity becomes this rallying cry, we're doing it for charity or destroying the communities that we support, and um again lives like, okay, fine, we'll give hundre million dollars a charity. They just said. They just coopted that whole argument, like, oh, it's about charity. Here's a

hundred million dollars. You know, they established this foundation and they're starting to spread it. So again, I think the tour has kind of overplayed its hand. Like Live Golfs is gonna give us much of charity as a PGA tour this year? Probably so true. Um yeah, they would put a hundred million dollars up into this foundation. So um. Now again it's transactional. They're trying to buy goodwill and

political cover. But if you're if you're one of these communities and you're a direct beneficiary of of that money, you don't care why it's there. You're just happy to get it because you need it. And so um, you know, I think these you can you can really talk about the culture clash between you know this the disruptors and the traditionalists. Um, but I think all these all these bridges can, all these divides can be bridged, but it

might be hard for j Monahan to do it. You know, he's he's gone all in and villainizing Greg Norman and the live guys like that. He staked his whole commissionership on that, that they're bad people and they're hurting the game. So then it gets hard to have this reapproachment. Now, if you're bringing a new commissioner and he can say, well that was then now we're gonna we're gonna look at a compromise and he's unencumbered by all those things that the previous guy said, then I think you have

some traction there. So let's just route. Let's just finish this podcast off kind of where we started with Tiger Woods, who now is the de facto commissioner. And what I'm hearing is that this this meeting was not so much about trying to hold the line and make sure other guys don't go or or whether they stay like that's kind of people have already made their choices to a

large degree. This is more about where do we go from here and what change can be made and what compromises could we have, what what can we how can we salvage this situation? I mean that that's been the tone of this gathering. I mean, and Jeff, you spoke eloquently about it. But um, you know, I think I think it's important to the point that you made is that they're here, whether you like it or not, the Saudis are now big players in in this in this

Gulf landscape. And I think Tiger seems to realize that. I'm not sure if Jay Monahan does, but I think the fact that if Tigers coming in with more of a problem solving mindset, that's a big development. So it's gonna take a few days, a few days to debrief everyone on what was really said or wasn't said. But that's that's what I'm hearing, is that, Um, there's there's a little shift here. It's no longer about digging in

and us against them. It's more like, okay, that that battle has been, that battles ended, and now how can we how can we avoid this really costly war? So, um, it's it's definitely it's just a unique moment this is going to continue evolved. We'll keep talking about it, but before we go together, any final thoughts on where we

are at this moment. Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's got to if you view it as a from the point of from point of ads point of view, the tour is part of view as an opportunity to sort of highlight how good your tournaments are, your tradition. Let's make January to August or whatever we want to call it, this is a legitimate, traditional proper golf. This is stroke place season. If you're like, this is where the world rankings have worked out. This is when all

the majors are played. If you want to know who the best golf from the world is, it's who plays on the PGA Tour between January and August. And then let's have silly season. Like I don't know why everyone is so adamantly against it, but why wouldn't you have like little match play leagues and like exhibition stuff, And like you said, the format's nuts, I mean, fifty four holes if it's if it's not in legitimate like that season.

I know that might not be exactly what the live side of things wants, but you've got to start somewhere.

You know you can get if you do have that great PGA to a traditional sort of season, you can get as creative as you want outside of that, and you can actually maybe sort of it's almost experimental, and what do people really want to see, Like at the end of the season, who wouldn't want to see Cam Smith team up with Marc Leishman and sort of some sort of team four ball best ball match play tournament

or all sorts of different stuff. I think the PGA to a strength is its tradition and it's sort of structure. I think it's an opportunity to actually highlight that and make it more important in golf. You know, That's the direction I would be going if anybody asked me, I would try to find a way to that sort of position, you know, make that the serious part of golf. You have to give up some of the schedule you just have.

I just don't see a way that they can. It's just going to be constant battling against the life side of things until you give up a date or two. Um. That would be the way I would see it. Like you said, it seems to be moving more that direction. Obviously, this meeting is more like how do we co exist with these people as opposed to how do we make them go away? And I would love to see everybody win, Like I think that I think that's possible. I think the tour can win, as I said, because they can

be the most legitimate game in town. Um. And I think the players can win because there be a whole lot of money to jump up for grabs. If they have a great strike place season or a great career, maybe they can jump into these really cool, crazy forty eight man fields for piles and piles of money and live have an opportunity in the Saudis, have an opportunity to be part of the golf landscape. I think everybody

can win if everybody wants to, you know. And I'd love to say that happened, because it's it's madness, what's going on at the moment, Michael, I can't just improve on that. It's a man who knows when to end a podcasts um, well, this is it's been a it's just a fascinating time to be alive. I mean, this is I feel like we'll be doing this uh regularly. But Jeff, thank you for your your insight, Michael, you as well. Uh, this is Alan ship Nuck. We're ending

this Fire Drill podcast. There will certainly be more to come thanks to listeners as always. Um, you need to acknowledge our sponsors, who were always grateful for that is part points the coolest scoring app in golf and Dormy Golfer makes beautiful artisanal leather goods. Uh that definitely worth checking out. We appreciate their help and let us do this and talk to you guys a fans. So that's it for now and we will back in your ear soon.

Thank you. A bad big an played to win, made a fortune, win my shot game inn I round the table, never thought I could fall down. The winter time hit me like a cannon the ball and now I can't shake this losing the stream. Every road I take is a dead end stream. I got thoughts in my head, can't get him out, trying not to think what I'm thinking about. I got thought in my head, can't get him out, and trying not to think what I'm thinking about