Fire Drill 036: The Voice of the Establishment

log on the fire. Nobody here is get the time. Hello, this is Alan Schipnuk, back for another fire drill podcast. I am joined by Michael Bamberger in Philadelphia and Davis love the third, who was kind enough to call in from the Windham championship down in North Carolina. We're gonna talk about the big news at hand, which is the ongoing civil war between the PGA tour and live golf, and of course that's now reached the litigation stage and

a lot of intrigue to discuss. Before we get to that, just a quick shout out to our sponsors who make

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of our great sponsors. They make beautiful handcrafted leather goods and Um, we have a lot of their merchandise now on the firepit website that we're selling, and really great stuff. that. Again, we we thank all of our sponsors for helping US keep the lights on and doing cool stuff like this. So let's get to the conversation. All right, hello, this is Alan Schipnuk, back for another fire drill podcast. Delighted to be joined by Michael Bamberger and Aldelphia and Davis.

Loved the third coming at us from what we used to call it the Greater Greensboro Open right, but now it's slightly different. G G oh, yes, now it's the window. It's the window, it's the window. Davis, thank you so much for being here. Um Um, of course you and Michael Go way, way back. Michael was trying to locate the book that you wrote together on the bookshelf behind

them but, in typical fashion, could not locate it. But Um, uh so we we want to talk about this current moment in golf and you were pretty outspoken in your press conference there at the window. Um, but I thought I'd be helpful for a lot of listeners don't remember the world tour of the early nineties and you were

one of the biggest stars in the game. Certainly you were part of those conversations and even going further back when, when you came on tour six you know, Greg Norman was emerging as a real force in the sports so you've you've known norman for a long time and and uh so that relationship was are these world tor negotiations in the early nineties. Can can you tell us a little bit about your your how your relationship with Greg as evolved through the years and and relive that the

world tour days of the early nineties? Well, the early relationship was greg was trying, just trying to beat him. You know, I was. I was a guy trying to, you know, come out on tour and and and run up against the Greg Great White Shark you know Darrell. He hit miraculous shots and unbelievable monker shots and beat us there every year. and Um, when you're at the master's, I was in the hunt on Sunday and said well,

if I can, I was playing with Greg. If I could just beat Greg, you know I'm gonna win the tournament. And I beat Greg and shot sixty six and I didn't win the tournament. Um. So I ran up against him a lot Um, I would say, you know, cordial, um relationship, competitive relationship. But then in ninety four, like

you said, when he brought up the world tour. That was during one of my many terms on the board and I was amongst the fight Um with him on that subject and some of the other players that he had kind of gathered around him to try to to to make a run at the tour, to do something different. It got all the way to the point where Um Arnold Palmer called a meeting in his office at Bay Hill of the top thirty or forty players and Tim

fincham obviously was there. Our commissioner and Greg didn't want to go and they told me you gotta go tell Norman, since your board member and you know him. Telling him he has to come to this meeting. So I told him and basically, you know the one time I twisted his arm. So you have to go to this meeting. You have to listen to what what Arnolds gonna say, because I don't go to meetings and I don't know

what it's about. You know what it's about. It's about the world tour and I'll tell you what he's gonna say when we get to the top of the stairs. And we we walked in, I said Arno was gonna tell you this is over, and Arnold's and Tim both spoke and said this is not the right thing to do. Um, we can make changes to the P G A tour if we want to, but we're gonna do it in house. And Arnold Eloquently said Jack and I could have taken ownership in the PGA tour when we helped start it,

but we didn't. We set it up to run like it's running now. It's running great. We're at a good point in the game and this is over. And my relationship with Greg hasn't been any good since. Um. We had a lot of discussions or arguments back then and my position is still the same. If you work within the system. Um, great things can happen if you get outside the system and break the rules. Look, look, look where they are now. I mean that that's quite a moment.

I'm trying. I've been in Arnold's office. Uh, did you really have three dozen dudes crowded in there? Yeah, packed packed in there. Um, you know, it was whoever the top thirty, forty guys that were in the field that week. And you know there was obviously the players of you know, the Fred couples or the VJ sings or the Phil Nicholson's.

Those guys are who we're driving the bus of the PGA tour, you know, and that's who Greg was after the top thirty, and also, Um, who the commissioner was protecting. And you know, I called Jay Monahan back, Um, late October, early November last year and I said we need an a palmer right now, don't we? And he said yes,

we do. and Um, you know, back then it was really just Phil Nicholson we were concerned about and trying to help, and Jay was asking my help to Um, you know, to get close to Phil and say, you know, there's a way out of this. If if you're willing and so like. Yesterday was breaking news this lawsuit. Well, to those of us on the inside, or the guys on the board, are the staff of the tour it's not breaking news. It's been coming for over a year

and they've been telling players for over a year. If you break these rules, if you sign up with this league, Um, these are your options. You're either suspended or your band for life. Those are only to two options. So to say that his breaking news amongst the top players that either went or I have not gone. It's not breaking news. It's unfortunately, this has been dragging on for a year. David's Great Norman. I've had a lot of experience with him,

nothing like yours, you know, in a different way. I find him to be a charismatic person in a lot of ways and, uh, he's intense. He gets right in

your face. I'll just sell you look quick aside. One of my first assignments in sports illustrated was mark mccomber and Greg Norman got in this feud over whether macomber had picked up a live piece of grass, basically in his line at fire someone one year, I think it was, and Macomber said that he had and Norman refused to sign his scorecard and uh, and turned to the whole thing. When I was reporting the story, Um, Norman said, you know a lot of brother guys have I troubled with him?

You should call day this. So I called Davis and I said, Davis, have you had probably problems of Macomber? And David said, you know, I've heard of things, but no, I've never. I've never had any problems with macomber myself. So then I reported that back to Norman and Norman said, Ah, you calling Davis another Yah, but it's bizarre because no, not at all. Did exactly what you told me to do. UH,

but anyway. But but the reason I say that is because Norman said to me early on, you know, more than half a year ago, how do you feel about this thing? And I said, if the funding were from someone other than the Saudis, if I would feel one way, but because it is from the Saudis, I feel I feel another and I just wonder it's it's such a big subject. I'm doing the exact thing I said I wouldn't do, going to the biggest, broadest part of it.

But I'm wondering to what degree Davis is the combination of Norman, who's such an outside figure and you're such an inside figure, and the saw the money. How much emotion is that generating for you personally? That's a great question. So the Saudi question is one one issue and outside of the United States, the rest of the world really doesn't have the problem with the Saudis that the United States does, or the public. You know, obviously big corporations

do business with the Saudis from the United States. Um, there's there's tour sponsors that do business with the Saudies. Um, if you if you just completely cut out the Saudias, the Chinese and, you know, half of South America, we wouldn't have very many sponsors or business going on in this country. So that's a that is a problem. And then Greg Norman is a problem because he's tried to do this twice. We've been investigated by the federal government

twice for collusion or anti trust. Why? Because Greg Norman, who's a famous offer, got up and said the tour is cheating me and is holding me back from earning money, and there they won't let us do what we want to do. That's the only reason we've been investigated not because we're not successful or a group of players are complaining or we we went out on strike. No, it's

because of Great Norman. So those two are issues. But let's just say Um Elon Musk decided to sponsor this and there's a lot of money and a great plan. It threatens the structure of the PGA tour to take forty or fifty or thirty of the top players and say you can play over here fourteen weeks. They'RE gonna play next year and then you can come back and Cherry pick the really good tournaments on the PGA tour and the and the majors and and not support the

rest of the PGA tour. We have whatever forty events. There's rules. You have to play fifteen to be a member. We've had that rule before, Greg Norman. And the great point that Jay struggling because he gets beat up in the media. Yet you can ask you all these questions, Shamn, and our commissioner. He said something great yesterday. These rules, regulations are made by the players for the players. That's the point that the courts or the public or the

players that left there. You know who's making the rules now. Rory mcelroy he's on the board of the tour. He came from Ireland, the little kid like Greg Norman. They wanted to come to America and be a superhero in golf and he became one. And instead of challenging the system and going off with somebody else, with with live golf, he's working within the system to change the rules. Now he and some other players have a groundswell of all right, maybe we do need to make some changes. Let's work

with the commissioner and solve this. That's how it gets done. I've seen it happen. How many times have we changed the Fedex Cup or the qualifying system or um the schedule? That comes from the players, not not from staff. So anyways, the threat to the structure of our business is the bigger issue. That's the court battle. The court battle that in oversalities are Greg Norman. Is the growth of the PGA tour over the last twenty years under this system

of rules written by the players. Is it working? Yes, we've grown exponentially in the last twenty years. I mean in fairness to Norman, I'm going back to I mean as a result of that that challenge for the structure, we got the world golf championships, the President's Cup, like there was. There were some positive changes and and the

tour became more global. That is there. Is Right. But if Greg Norman and Vj Singh and whoever else he had on his list had come to the board, I was on the board at the time, had come to the board and said we want this, and in fact I have twenty two players that are willing to go, this is what we want that, they would have gotten the same result. World Golf Championships. Um, the President's Cup started in ninety four. So it was yeah, I think

it was. It was gonna happen. It might have happened anyway, but I probably got fast tracked faster, like in like in one year. But yeah, but you you make an excellent point and a lot of players say, well, the tours reactionary to this. Well, wait a minute, we had no idea five years before, like in Greg Norman was going to try this. So yes, we reacted to an uprising of the players. Two years ago we had no, no, really idea that. Well, three years ago and no idea

of COVID was coming. So yes, we were reactionary to covid and we were reactionary to this latest challenge. But what we're we I say we because I'm I'm a little bit on the inside, not like I was on when I was on the board, but the veteran players, former board members, the people that talked to, the J Monahans and the Tim fincham's. We're building for the future, not for next year. We have to protect this system.

So they threw out an interesting status this last couple of weeks and I was one of the examples that they used. I've made fifty eight million dollars comprehensive earnings on the PGA tour, official money, unofficial money, retirement plan, Fedex cut comprehensive earnings. If you had my career starting right now, and I've been I've been using Um cam young as my example. If Cam Young Has Davis loves career,

he makes six hundred and fifteen million dollars. So the growth, the growth and the business of the tour is working and I'm trying Tiger Woods, Roy, mcelroy, guys on the board now, Kevin Kissner, we're trying to protect that for Jackson Bird, Jonathan's son, Tiger's son. So it's there for them to have that opportunity, just like we did. And that's why Tiger talks about legacy and records, because he wants somebody to try to break his records or he wants his kid to be able to play and try

to Chase Fred couples records. That's what golf is all about. We want to see these major winners compared to pass major winners. Right Um, we want we want tiger to break Jack's record. You know, that's that's the important thing. It's not how much money. And when you look at live they say it's not about the money, but what

else is it about? It's all about the money. So well, I think on the most personal level, no matter how you feel about this thing degreed and the desire for more and more and more in a narrow when so much of the world doesn't even have enough, that's just personally offensive to a lot of people, and I guess I would. I'm not a guest, I would definitely put myself in that category. It's like how much is enough? I mean golf is a niche sport in the first place,

but let's put that aside for a second day. Of said, let me ask this. You've known Phil for probably thirty years, if not more. Um, you would phil were side by side. Of course, you're both P J championship winners, working side by side last year at the president's Scutt it's hard to imagine someone on a higher high than he was walking with amy and yeah, you know, just adored by the players and by spectators and by everybody else. His life has fallen apart since then. Do you like we're

seeing the actual Phil Michelson now. How do how do you? How does that play in your mind? The PHILM Michelson that we thought we knew, the Til Michelson that you actually knew, and what we're seeing now? Well, Um, Phil is a great Um promoter actor. You know, he's Um. He played the part as the Superhero of golf very well, but unfortunately, you know, we heard these rumors of problems, you know, and as in the background, and now they

seemed to come out more public. Um. And you see, every one of these players has a different reason for going to live and Phils, apparently, was all all about the money. You know, he's challenging, he always has challenged the rules and regulations of the PGA tour. But the PGA tour is what made Phil Mickelson famous. You know, if it's if it wasn't for the system where you could get an exemption, and I'm into play and Um,

he you know, he never went to q school. The system worked for him and made him famous and put him put him in the hall of fame. So No, Phil, Phil's a troubled soul and he's had a lot of friends like me, trying very hard to try to help him. Not About live and not about golf, but about Phil Nucholson. Um, you know, right now it's tragic that that none of us can get him to take a phone call. You know, you've heard Fred's quotes. He's gone dark and, Um, we'll

not take a phone call. One of one of his one of his really good friends, said, look, we've tried as hard as we can. You know, eventually we have to move on and it's unfortunately. I'm praying for Phil and a lot of those guys that are my friends that somehow something good, Um, can happen and turn this around. But you know, Tiger Woods had his problems a couple of times and had to face the music and look

at him now. He's he's leader. He's bringing young players to his home, he's he's mentoring guys, he's he's captaining teams. He agreed to be an assistant captain for me back in Ryder Cup. And to your point, Phil left the PGA championship year and a half ago as a golf hero. Couldn't have been a bigger high. Dustin Johnson left whistling straits an American golf hero, five and Oh, team leader, veteran player. Has Dustin Johnson ever been on a bigger high?

And now he's, you know, Lance Armstrong like people are, hands off, stay, stay away this guy. This guy's got bad Karma. Um, Dustin did for a completely different reason. Dustin got to a number where he said, look, I can ride off into the sunset. I had a had a wonderful conversation with Dustin about this whole thing before London. I have no problem with Dustin. He's honest with me.

Now the rest of these guys are lying, Um Miss Truce, Um Deflecting, um conniving, and that's what that's what's so sad is they're getting told things from somewhere, from Liv Golf, that are just not true. And and our I can watch him stand up there in the press commerce just flat outline. Um. Greg Norman does it almost every time he's on TV. He tells a lie. We're a closed shop, he said the other day. Right, no, I know three or four players that they're actively recruiting right now. Is

You're not a closed shop, um. So it's just it's so sad that we've gotten to this point where we're fighting amongst ourselves in a game that, you know, all three of US respect because of the history and the legacy. Hey, Bayern Nelson played two years to make enough money to buy a farm. He was playing for money, but look at his legacy. You know you want a bunch of golf tournaments. Did A lot for charity. Helps support the

determinent analysis whole career. Sat on the first tea at the masters and greeted new players and was was a mentor in the game. Fred couples would take me to his house. But he did play for money, but he did it the right way. Your use of the Word Karma is interesting. So, just as a thought exercise, let's say that the live golfers win their uh all these court battles, they are able to keep playing in tour events. You, as the President's Cup captain will have to decide if

you want to select some of them for your team. Potentially, in this scenario, this hypothetical, would you? Would you automatically discount them as candidates because you think that it would be too divisive to to bring them onto your your team of loyal PG tourment would not pick them? Um, I don't know if there's a way that they could be. The court could force the tour to make them eligible. Um, they'd have to get in the top six and points.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna help you with your hypothetical. They'd have to play well in the playoffs, because none of them are in the high enough, in the top six, and then I can, I can be the bad guy and not pick them. Um, so, hypothetically, even if, yes, I don't see any way they're gonna play, a player in the locker room. Yesterday, after all this news came out, because you know, I agree with all this, except for the Ryder Cup, in the President's Cup, they ought to

be allowed to play. I said, you've never been in our team room. We have guys in past years we didn't want in our team room because they were a little bit divisive, not a team guy. We're out for themselves. Now we know who they are. There's something they're not coming in our team room. I said I would. I would walk out before I had to have three or four of those guys on my team if I was a player. That's what I keep saying. Unfortunately, the article came out that I said the US Open Strike. That's

not what I said. I was talking about because I knew last week at the rocket mortgage this lawsuit was coming. I said, if they sue and they are allowed to play in the Fedex playoffs, one thing the players can do is just say fine, if those guys are playing, I'm not playing. Now I know I will not name names. I know that there's five or six influential players that

totally agree. I didn't. I'm not the first one to come up with us, but we sit with another guy and go, he and I think that we should not play the fedex, but those guys are allowed to play. What do you think? And he goes, if if everybody else is on board, I won't play. We're Madam, it's somebody. Yesterday I said don't go on the locker room. Everybody's all piste off. You know we're defending our way of life and what Max Holmers said it best. You can't

buy my dream there. There they're suing our dream and it could hurt our business and down the road, our ability to make money. If they win and the structure falls and our rules fall apart in court, we will make less money on the PGA tour. That's guaranteed. Sponsors will drop. You know, we may have to go to a tax organization rather than a tax exempt organization. That means our expenses go up. You know, it's the whole thing. People just don't understand how big we're. A billion, five

billion six business this year. It's a big business. The structure is working. We paid out, WE'RE gonna pay out of that to the players in this year. So we make a lot of money and we give a lot of money away. Nobody gets to keep it. It's where tax exempt, nonprofit. Give it, give it all away. So, Um, I I don't want them on my team. Um, there's a lot of guys. I just said to this player, I said, can you imagine Justin Thomas or Jordan speak one those guys on their team? No, they're supporting the

PGA tour. That these guys aren't and are suing them. I don't see it happening. I mean it's an interesting there's just really quick just to follow and then the floor. The floor is yours, um, but you know, I've been to some of these live events. In fact, I think me and Bob Harrig are the only reports have been to all three so far because I'm it's a big story and I'm trying to understand it. and Um, for the live golfers it's a business decision and for the

tour players it's very personal. There's a big divide here and I guess I'm trying to understand because certainly there's plenty of PG tour members, and you mentioned rory before. He's played on multiple tours and he's he's gone to China and he's taken appearance fees and there's there's plenty of golfers who have tour membership still who have played

all around the world on different tours. And the live guy is that's their point is this is just another global tour and I don't I don't understand why everyone's so mad at us and why we're essentially being persecuted. Now that's my word not there's but I'm interpreting what they're saying and, Um, what was your response to that? And I've said this and it obviously doesn't get out there. They are more than welcome to go do that. There

they are. They are not independent contractors, their free agents. They can go play. Greg Norman could have stayed in Australian played the Australian tour. You know, you can go play the Asian tour if you want. You don't have to play the PGA tour. But to put it as simply as I can is they want to play fourteen live events next year and they want to come and play four or five million dollar events on the PGA tour. That's what they want to do. That that doesn't work.

You have to play events on our tour to be a member, to have access to the players chieved. How do you just go look up? How how you getting the players team and hip on the Fedex all these other things to get in the field right? Well, if you'RE gonna go play somewhere else, you you don't qualify for the Players Championship. But that's what they're asking for. So they're free. They signed up at the beginning of this year. We joined the PGA tour every every year

we joined the PGA of America. Every year we pay our dues. They signed up to play under these rules. And the simple example is if I didn't commit by Friday last week, I can't play this week in the window championship. Right. What if I say like Phil Nicholson, but I'm I'm a hall of Famer and I'm a life member. I just decided on Tuesday I want to play, you have to let me play. Well, no, you, you

broke the rule. You you didn't commit last week and if you don't play fifteen you don't get your retirement plan. And if will Zalaturus was a non member, right, remember the crazy year he had. We had to keep a list on the Ryder Cup, the Salatorus list, because he wasn't making points, but he was going to end up eligible to play and we could have picked him but he didn't have any points because he was not a member. That's the issues that you join a league and you

have to play by the rules. Or if Roy mclroy's playing the European tour and he qualifies for the player's Championship, he can play right or for the PGA championship or the US Open off of his but the lift tour doesn't have any access because they're not playing real golf tournaments. They're not getting more ranking points so that at every term the Arnold Palmer has a different access than the memorial right. So those guys don't fit any of the categories that they want to play in. Right now, you

understand what I'm saying? They yes, I do. Certainly there's there's lots of rules. I guess that the next question is, do the rules as are constructed now makes sense? Are they sacristaying where we could change the rules to find a way another great point, you know, to make this work and reunify the game. So you can't. You can change the rules. Um, we change the rules for Sevy, Bernard Um Monty, that that crew, to make it easier for them, for European players, to get on access to

the tour. We lowered it. I want to I want to say it was twenty and then it was eighteen and then it was fifteen minimum. Um, we because of the world golf championships, that kind of thing. We said, all right, you can play, we'll count the world golf championships will count the majors and then you'll get to your fifteen a lot easier. Um, yes, the rules can change, and that's what the point of this whole thing is.

We can change the rules however what we want. Well, if a hundred and fifty voting members decide we want to box the live golfers out forever, then you might be collusion or anti trust. But the players making the rules. Now. Um, we just changed access to the Arnold Palmer, the tiger woods the memorial and gave them three year exemption rather than the two years we made. The players made those rules, we voted on them. So yes, we can change them

however we want. But we're looking at selling to fedex a six sixty million dollar ten year package. We're in the middle of right. We sold it to them. They were assuming that they were gonna have Dustin Johnson and those kind of type players weren't gonna go anywhere else. Well, those guys went somewhere else. So if I'm Fedex, I'm going we'll wait a minute. I'm not getting the same product. They're hurting our business, so they can't come back and

charity pick our business, since they're hurting our business. And it's it's a lot of semantics, but Roy, mclroy, it's worked out for him and Sergio Garcia and Paul Casey and name some others. Um that they play both tours and they play the Ryder Cup. When they play that, they rory wins the Fedex cup twice. You know, it's the system works. If you're a great player in Europe and you want to play both tours, Luke Donald, it works. Um, it can always get better. The world rankings can always

get better. Um, I don't like the new fall schedule of going forward in my tournaments in the fall. Um, I hope that gets better, but I'm gonna work within the tour. I'M NOT gonna sell it to live. You know. I'm gonna work within the tour to make my tournament fit and give money to charity and be a PGA tour event. Davis, I'd love to get your take on Patrick Reed and this whole thing. The UH, the Phil

Tiger divide has never been greater. When Patrick Reed was coming up on tour and he was Monday qualifying into these things. Is wearning the rich shirt and the black trousers on Sunday and sort of hanging on everything that that tiger was doing. He was very much a tiger accolite and tiger picked him for his President's Cup team in Melbourne. Um, the week before he had what I would call a flat out cheating episode right there on TV for anybody to see. UH, tiger could have buried him.

Of course he couldn't really, because he was gonna be on his team the next the next week. I'm just wondering, with this long preamble, I would have thought that Patrick read, you know, Captain America on these Rider Cup teams and all the rest and so much of tiger. I would have thought he would have been lockstep with tiger. Um. So he's actually a little surprised to see him go um and it's kind of realized. It makes you realize that you know the people that you think you know

you don't know. But Anyway, I just wondered what is your take on Patrick Reid's relationship with tiger and Patrick read going down this path that he's going? Well, the thing is that most of what I've heard from talked to a few of them and heard about some of them. They didn't they didn't ask Tiger Woods or veteran players. What do you think about this? They didn't ask Um, the people that you and I would ask their opinion of Um. What do you think ought to do in

this situation? You know, they really just they took the money and what you have to understand is from their side, the people that are paying them the money are telling them there's no way you can lose in court, there's no way they can keep you from playing, there's no way the masters is going to say you can't come to the past champions dinner, Um, and maybe you won't even get to play. Um. They're being fed so much stuff,

but it sounds really good. If you're offered ten or twenty or thirty or a hundred million dollars, you're starting to believe them. But Um, you know, Patrick Reed, Um Captain America loves, you know, loves the Ryder Cup, loves the President's Cup, fired up about it. Bubba Watson has said it publicly. My my dream is to be a Ryder Cup captain and be in the hall of fame.

They have been told for a year at two player meetings, if you joined this league you are jeopardizing your chance to play on the PGA tour to play in the Presence Cup, you could lose your status on the PGA tour. Therefore you would not be eligible for the Ryder Cup. They knew all this going in and willingly took the money and left and now are suing us because they don't no. We explained to you. So I don't know. I was in a lot of team rooms with Patrick

Reid and Bubba Watson and guys like that. Phil Nickolson. This is the best week of my life. You know, this great experience. I love you. Guys teary eyed and you just think, like Max Homma said, somebody bought their dream. You know, it's it's unfortunate, but every one of those guys, and I don't know Patrick that well, you know Charles Howell, okay,

he's just past six PGA tour starts. Um, he's looking like he's wearing down, tired of the of the battle, even though he's still is one of the best drivers of a golf ball I've ever seen. But Charles sees a way to cash out to right. Notice that he's not on the lawsuit. He's not named. Charles, I think just wants the money and let me go away. Um, whereas you know, Hudson Swofford is suing because if he doesn't sue and live blows up, he's got nowhere to

play golf. He's he's going to get banned. So everybody has a different reason, but that reason, Um, they have a different reason that they took the money. They're just taking the money. And let's just be honest. You know, Dustin Johnson found a number that he's willing to not be a ryder cut captain or or not get maybe not get invited back to the masters. You know, there's a hundred and fifty million and Bryson is the same thing, um.

But they're they're also being told that there's a chance that we're gonna win in court and you guys can go right back to it. I kind of just follow up on that for one Christian Davison, never had a chance to ask this before two of the most famous patrick great episodes. I think that Dur was way too soft on him, the one in San Diego and the one, and you know, in the Bahamas. I'm just wondering what, without going to the INS and out, so what actually happened?

I'm just wondering about your overall uh take on those two events. Well, if, Um, if you keep having to explain it and not apologize for it but defend it, then you probably broke the rule. and where they're smoke, there's fired, it isn't those aren't the only two instances. You know, he came to the tour with a reputation Um like that. And you know, really good golf people tend to to give you a pass on your your attitude or your demeanor or or your honesty if you're

a really good golfer. And I think, Um, I think he got a he gotta pass. You know, sometimes the rules officials, Um, the tour doesn't stand up enough. You know, UM, obviously they're standing up against this lift thing pretty hard. But you know, people bring up the VJ Singh things. Why? Why didn't the tour ban him? You know, he sued the Tour for defamation of character. Um, there there's a lot of a lot of things where we could have stood up a little stronger, and maybe maybe the Patrick

Reed thing was one of them. But Um, you know, basically you would have had to pull him aside and say you're you're lying, we know you're cheating, you're kicked off the tour. That was their other option, you know, or just you know, intent and all those things that go into making a ruling. Sometimes it's hard for somebody to pull a trigger like that. But you know, if I here's the here's the simple answer. If I was playing with him, I'd watch him. You know, I'd be expected.

Red Norman was watching cucumber. You know. Um, yeah, that's yeah, he thought something. He was watching him. That's well said. Listening to you talk about the Wryder Cup and the present's cup, I mean, doesn't make you worry about the future of those two competitions, Davis, because uh, certainly the International Presence Cup team is is taking a big hit here and Um, you're losing a answer and various other players.

And if if Aidecki goes, has been discussed, if Cam Smith Goes, has been discussed, that that really uh is going to weaken that international team especially. Uh. And then you know, an entire generation of European captains are potentially off the table. I mean we all know Ian Polterwould in an all time great captain, Sergio would been a great captain, Lee Westwood, Um, you know, you're uh, you're losing a lot of personality from both of these cups.

Like we do, worry about about their future, at least in the short term. Yeah, and the reason I agreed to do the podcast with you guys, and Michael and I have a very, very long relationship, but I knew both of you would ask great questions, and that's another great question. Um, I don't know what's gonna Happen. I'm worried about what's gonna happen. That's why you see me, you know, get a little bit mad and emotional in

a golf channel interview yesterday because it's become a fight. So, a year ago, if we had done this, my tournament office asked me, what's going on with this, this live thing? It's not gonna happen, don't worry about it. Six months ago and Jay Monahan and are talking about Phil Mickelson and he's asking me for his help, for my help on a couple of other things. I said, Jay, you're panicking. You know this is not going to get off the ground.

You know, we've seen this movie before. Michael probably heard me use that line. Um, we've seen this movie before in ninety four. It's not gonna happen. The players, players don't want to leave the PGA tour. Um. So, unfortunately I was wrong. Um, I misjudged the market. Um, I misjudged I didn't realize the depth of the money that would be thrown at something that doesn't really have a chance to make any money. So I'm I am worried.

I don't know what's going to happen next. These players keep coming to me and I go, I don't know. I said, here's what's happening behind the scenes and here's what the tour is doing, but I don't know what the outcomes can be. You know, you take it to a court in San Francisco, you don't know what what

they're gonna do, how are they're going to rule? I am I'm a worried, but I'm confident because Jay and Tiger and rory and and a great group of people are are pouring a lot of effort into trying to figure out how to how to move forward in any scenario. Just real quick because, Um, I was talking to a lawyer this morning about this. It's San Francisco is a very strategic choice because California is very pro employee, whereas if you file in Florida, that has history being very

pro employeer, and so that was not an accident. They chose that particular venue. And you know that when when you look at when you look at the lawyers involved in this case, it is a WHO's who of white shoe law firms and UH, some of the guys that live is signed up are known as bare knuckle brawlers and Um, so, talking to some folks on the legal field like they they see this as as a as a, as a real battle. I just want to make that point because there's been some confusion about why was it

a federal court in San Francisco? Well, there there's an answer to that. Oh Yeah, you know, their lawyers say that they're gonna win and our lawyers say I'm gonna win. So my argument to Hudson Swofford or a Taylor Gooch was, okay, let's just give it a fifty fifty. You got a chance that the tour is gonna win. The tour will uphold their rules and you not only broke some rules, then you sue the tour and you lost and you could be banned for life. Is it worth a fifty

chance for some money? And that's I promise you. Those guys understood of that. Um, a lot of a lot of these players understood that they were taking a chance and that they were going to have to sue to get what had already been given to them. So, yeah, it's it's they have good strategy where they're going. But, you know, Ed Hurley is a really famous lawyer. He's a chairman of our board, the PGA tour. Um, he's very confident, you know. Um, he's not saying let's be

careful here. You know, they're ready to go. I mean as soon as as soon as they filed it, you know, it was game on, Um, and that's unfortunate that we're gonna be an a legal battle when we should be talking about, you know, who's moving up the Fedex Cup points list and, Um, and as Dustin Johnson gonna make the President's Cup team. That's what I'm worried about. To answer your question, Luke Donald just took over. What's he, he and Zack Johnson, gonna be doing the next year?

You know, somebody, somebody yelled across the putting green to me a couple of weeks ago said bet you're glad you're not on the board now, and I said yeah, but you're glad you're not Presidents Cup captain. And but I'm I'm I'm honored to be the captain and maybe in this time when I have Steve Stricker and Fred couples and Zack Johnson. Now we added Web Simpson, but we have upstanding citizens in the game of my assistant captains. We can all speak for the PGA tour and we

can protect our team. Tiger told me that last night. What I said, what can I do here is you protect to your team right now, and that's my job, is to get them ready to play and protect them from the outside so they can go play golf, because we want to win in Charlotte. You know, there's guys right now out there shooting it up sedge field country club trying to win the Windham and the game goes on even though there's a legal battle behind the scene.

So I have to I have to make my pairings and my picks and all these things over the next month and you ready, so the guys that do show up and play have the best chance to win. Davis, I know you can't know the answer to this question, but I am interested in and I think our listeners will be very interested in your opinion. What do you think the endgame for the Sawdise is here? Because, as you just said, there's no money you'd be made here. So what are they actually the house of sad what

are they actually trying to achieve? Well, what what I hear is, you know, like Um other countries over there, eventually they're going to run out of oil. They're they're creating a new economy. They're into Formula One, they're into horse racing, UM, soccer clubs. Um. There their destination, you know, tourist destination. Now, UM, they're trying to Um create an alternate economy other than just being oil rich. Um there

there is. There is a model that you know, these teams, they say, are going to be so valuable, the NIBLICKS and whatever, they're gonna be so valuable that there will be hundreds of millions of dollars of sponsorships to sponsor Phil Nicholson's team, Brooks kept his team, and that's what those guys are doing. The guys that have been paid the big money are also getting a cut of the action, and that was Arnold Palmer's point back Jack and I could have taken a cut of the action when this

whole tour thing started and we didn't do it. So those guys are trying to get a cut of the team money. And then there's gambling, and that's where, you know, every sport right now is getting an influx of of sponsorship dollars from gambling. So they see that as well. You'RE gonna bet that this team is gonna win today, this team is gonna win for the week. Um, it's they're they're not. Um, they're not a bunch of fly by nine guys. There's a bunch of smart people working

on us. Unfortunately, their goal is to tear down the PGA tour so they can get what they want, so they can make up bunch of money. Um, they have to be sitting there where a plan to make money down the road. You and I look at it like they just gave this guy a hundred million and that guy million. How could they ever make money that way? Um, and play for million a week, but they think they're going to make money. Um. You know, then they call it sports washing PR move. Well, that's not working in

the United States. I don't know if it's working around the world. So I don't know what they're in game is there's so many unknowns and that's why Alan's questions so good. What's going to happen to the Ryder Cup, in the Presence Cup? What's gonna Happen to the PGA tour? Um, I don't know. But the thing is a a player in the hall of fame of Golf, is the one that's creating the uncertainty and that's what's so back to your question earlier, Michael, if Greg wasn't involved, would it

be any different? Yeah, it would be hugely different if there wasn't. A lot of people love Greg Norman or Greg Norman fans, and he's famous, he's in the hall of fame. They take what he says is oh well, yeah, the tours of monopoly. That's unfair. How can it be a monopoly? You know, you don't have to play it. You can go play. Rory mclroy could have played the European tour. Never come over here. It's not a monopoly. We don't have the only place to play professional golf.

We have the best place, but we don't the only place. Um. So Anyway, Um, I don't know where it's going, Um, but I am committed. Um, like like I think Jay Monahan is to die on the hill Um and try to save Um, not professional golf, but PGA Tour Golf. Um. What is it supposed to be? A feeder tour to the live tour down the road? You know that's the end game. I don't know. We didn't understand the nine. Where does your next forty guys come from? You know

that's a really I know you got a questionnaire. I'll make this real quick. That's a really good point. And this, this is kind of subtle, but not really, and I don't know why more people aren't talking about the ultimate beauty of the PJ tour is if you if you have a bunch of players playing by the rules. That's the starting point. You have to trust the scores. It is the ultimate meritocracy, no matter how much of an asshole you may be. If the scores are the scores,

you've played your way under the PGA tour. The live thing is a cherry picking invitational. We like you, we like your personality. You fit our demographic. That's not the tradition of professional golf and I think I'm surprised that story hasn't been been told. And here's the about here's the thing about their tournaments. They have every right to do whatever they want to do format. They go play whatever they want. Fred couples and I want World Cups where we were paid by sponsors to play in the

World Cup. Right now. We grounded out and we won four of them in a row, but it wasn't made for TV. Event that Fred and I were paid to play in. Right Um, the target world challenge put on by Tiger Woods at Um, at Sheerwood. I want it twice. Only beat like twelve guys and I want a million dollars. Did I get any world ranking points for that or does that show up in my PGA tour? I need to know because it's not a real tournament. We were

just playing in Capitalua, Mark Roffing, God bless Mark Rofing. Um, I played in twenty, maybe more, mark rofing silly season events. They were great on TV and I want a lot of money, but they're not. They were not counted in my twenty one tour wins. Right. So there's not a there's not a problem with what they're doing, but you can't do that fourteen times a year and then come back and play three or four of the best termis on the PGA tour just because you say it's not

fair if I don't get to do that. If they played on the Asian tour and earn their way on the PGA tour, that the DP world tour, they could come play, but they're they're not wanting to play on those tours either. They're not going to be a member of the tour. They just think, and this is where Greg's arrogance or confidence, he thinks that the top players should be able to do whatever they want and not play by any of anybody else's rules. Live tour has rules.

They have a lot of them. I've heard and and people have dove into the country. They have a lot of rules. You can't just do whatever you want to play six a year. You have to play. You're under contract. That's what they are, contracted players of another organization and they can't be a member of the PGA tour for four weeks a year and be a member of that organization or the you can't be a member of the the European tour and just pop over here and play

any tournament you want to play. You have to play by the rules to get in the events. So Um again. I don't know. I don't know where it's all gonna go, but it's Um Davis, what would be your advice to Fred Ridley? Um, what? What would you he's got. What would be? I would say the same thing. Boy, you wouln't want to be the chairman of Augusta National Right now, would Um? I don't know. So here's the thing that the masters has moved on from Arnold Palmer playing Jack

Nicholas playing Um. You gotta, you gotta think. What what do I want to do for the future? You know Dustin Johnson, Um. You know they've got got a few guys, Patrick Reed, past champions. Do you just say, all right, I'm gonna let them play and maybe they're not invited to the past champions dinner because nobody wants them in the room? And then past that, we're gonna Change Our qualifying system and anybody that's a member of that tour

is gonna have a really hard time getting in. You know, the old days used to have to win a P G, a tour event to get into the masters right, and then they changed it to top fifty world rankings. You can finish in the top ten of the US Open or top six in the P G A. Maybe the masters just changes again. It says if, if, unless you win one of these group of tournaments, you're not in the masters, and then we have the right to invite

whoever we want, like they always have. They're in the best position, because some of my friends say, well, the majors hold all the cards, Augusta holds their cards and they're all aces. They can do whatever they want. And so, Fred I would say look at your past chairman, the way they've handled things that have come up, and you just make your decision, like Augusta national always has, for the good of the game, and they'll come out on top.

You know what happened with Martha Burke. She said, we're protesting, we're gonna take protests your sponsors. They went fine, we won't have sponsors. What happened in Covid they said, well, you can't play without fans or corporate sponsors be there. Oh, yeah, we can't. We're just we're just playing November two. What do? Whatever we want. They're in a great position. You just opened and the and the open championship are in a

tough position because they are open to qualifying. So Martin slumbers. I think handled he might have had the best press conferences of anybody on this live thing. He just said we were going to reserve the right to change our qualifying systems down the road and we don't think it's right for the game and these guys aren't invited to the past champions dinner. Um, and these guys are gonna get bad tea times. So he handled it extremely well. Um.

You know, world ranking points is a whole another issue. Um. But I think because of Tim Finchham's tenure and now Jay, the golf organizations before this work together, moving in the same direction better than they ever have. You know, like I said, I've been in five terms on the board. That's nineteen years sitting in there in boarding board, listening to meetings. Um, when I was last on the board, when Jay Monahan was hired, the golf organizations were never

in a better place moving in the same direction. Obviously, Fred Ridley at Augusta National Seth while at the Pja of American and Jay Monahan are lifelong friends from the game of golf. Um, and then Mike when you know, had been at the L P G A. Um. They all know each other very well. And they're all moving in the same direction. I see that continuing on. Um, you know, they can't come out and say what they're doing right now because you know they're in the legal battles.

But Um, I feel confident that the majors will will each make their own decisions and make them correctly, because I I really trust the leadership of all those organizations right now. But see for me, I don't think in

some ways this is not the major's battle. Like this is a turf war between competing tours and each of those organizations, the RNA and the U S G A, and they get the spotlight one week a year and they want to have the best possible terment they can have with their past champions, with all the top players. I mean for them to set up any rules that would carve out and they'd be missing twenty of the top fifty players, or whatever the math turns out to be,

or Um x number hall of famers or Major Championship winners. Um, to me that devalues the major championships because then you haven't beaten all the all the players. You're right. That's why I think. I think what I would do to answer Michael's question and your point. If I was Mike when I'll just say, Hey, if you've got an current exemption as a pass champion or world ranking points, we're gonna include you in the field. But here's where our rules are now going forward. And if you win twenty

live events, you're you're not going to get in. But if if you finish high in the PGA championship, you can get in the US Open. Or if you finish high the Fedex points, you win a PGA tour event or two PGA tour events, you're in. You know what I mean? I think, Um, you can include the guys that are major champions now, but you don't have to say that Chase Kepka got on a roll and won five live events in the season and now now he's he has to be in the U S Open. You

know what I mean? Are The masters? Yeah, but where where do you fall on the world ranking question? Because, I mean you mentioned Tiger's tournament. You didn't get points for those wins, but now there's only twenty guys at Tiger's tournament and you get points. And Yeah, they play saving two holes, but you only have to beat nineteen dudes, Um, and it's off season. A lot of mark trying it very hard. So, Um, I mean, do you see a scenario where where live golf does get world ranking points?

Because then that that that's gonna make the major question take care of itself. Yeah, I was on the board too on the on the tiger ternament thing and that was that was contentious. But they they adapted, they added to the field. Um, you know, used to be less players. Um. So yeah, that one um is an anomaly and I'm sure if we're in court that would come up. But the live tour has several issues. You know, you can't. You have to be on a tour where you can play your way onto and play your way off. Of

to Michael's point, it's an invitational group. Um, they're not qualifying for the live tour. so that throws them out. Um, no, cut throws them out. There's a whole bunch of reasons that they don't fit the model. For what ranking points? And what they don't tell you publicly is they they file an application. What was it July six or something. They are on a year probation period to watch how their tour runs before they could ever be even if

they fit the system. They were. They're ineligible for points for a year. So we're all the way to, you know, pass the masters Um for July of next year. Before they get they get a vote on whether they're going to get them or not. So those guys right now are not getting points no matter what, for a whole year. So Um, yes, the world ranking points can can solve a lot for the for the major championships, Um, and for the PGA tour. But every organization has a vote

and I'm a Betton Guy. You could. You could recuse Um j Monahan. Why I don't I don't know, but you could recuse him and you still get the majority, if not every one, of them voting against it right now. Um, just based on what they've said publicly. So Um, that there's a lot of a lot of hands being held of cards in the that that that deck of that that Um dealt hand to the to the world ranking points, is a problem. That's why Greg Norman keeps bringing it up, Um,

and he'll sue over that as well. Um, he'll sue for collision and well, but why not, before you file your application? Why don't you go to seventy two holes in a in a thirty six whole cut and get enough players in your tournament where it fits the criteria, or at least close. They don't even come close now. Um. And those criteria were made up years ago, not. They didn't just get made up because of the lift towards

they've they've been around for a long time. So, Um, so some, some, many tour series can't come and ask for world ranking point. The corn ferry tour should get more world ranking points than anybody other than the PGA tour, and they don't. So Um, that one. That one won't stick either again, unless you file in San Francisco and get the right to get the right judge. I mean, I was interested when you said earlier that you know this is a hill that you're willing to die on,

and same with J Monahan. I'm just wondering, is there any scenario where there could be a compromise dictated by the courts, or or maybe a change in leadership at at live and or the PGA tour, where you say, okay, it doesn't suit the game to have to split up the star power and split up the sponsors and the fans, like let's let's bring let's bring this sport back together and like these fall events that the tours now cooked up.

You know, if, if those fly under the banner of Live Golf, it's co sanctioned, just like you have co actually between the PGA tour and the European tour. Um. Is there any way that that this, this could be made to work? or Um, and it would probably, you know, by by Villainizing uh live. It gets harder to compromise. I recognize that. But again, if, if, maybe, if, if, if Monahan took a graceful exit, or and or Norman like, could we put this back together somehow? Well, Monahan, Monahan

works for the players. So the players can hire or fire the commissioner. Um, I get a hundred and forty guys together and we all say to the four player directors we want the commissioner fired. Um, it will happen. Um. So I think Jays is very, very safe. Um. That goes back to Michael's original question about if it wasn't the saladies back in it, if it wasn't Greg Norman

back in it, could you work out? Well, Um, the the political thing is a tough one because again, there's a lot of companies in the United States to sponsor PGA tour events that do business with the Saudies. Right, so maybe that could work out. The US government does business with the Saudies. You know, the people that are investigating us do business with the Saudis. I don't have a problem with, Um, with going down that road to a certain extent. You know, Greg Norman is just caustic.

So yeah, maybe, Um. But yes, let's just talk about golf. Leave out the Saudies, leave out Greg Norman. Yes, there can be a solution and that's I think Jay has enough forgiveness and Um grace and his personality and in his heart that he doesn't want a rift. He would love to figure out a way. So yes, if it wasn't the week before the major championships, if it wasn't up against the core PGA tour season, it could work.

You could move our eight million dollar tournaments around and move their million dollar tournaments around and not require that they play every one of their fourteen, or we not require you have to play fifteen over here. Things can change, yes, Um, but the way they chose to do it, Um, and the and the people behind it have caused it to be a fight. So, Um, you know you guy, Michael knows me Verymo you know me a little. I want everybody to get along and be happy and and let's

all turn out. Several players have said, well, maybe you ought to be the commissioner. I got no, I'm not smart enough to understand all the TV deals and how to get on my ipad on the on the call Um. I'm not smart enough. I just know that I want to be one of the people that give is an opinion and tries to help make it work out. But Trust me, there are veteran top players. Roy's out front, but there are veteran top players that are doing that

right now with the commissioner, with the golf organizations. Hey, let's figure something out that will work for the PGA tour to protect it and not lose any more guys. So yes, there's again. I don't know what's going to happen. I just know that my little golf tournament in the fall series which, however it turns out, gives a lot of money to charity and gives a lot of playing

opportunities to guys from fifty to the money list. That's my job, is to create playing opportunities and look at look at a lot of the players that have won one our tournaments their first win or Charles how a late career win. Um, it's it's been a great tournament and Tiger's got the biggest tournament on the West Coast at Riviera and he's doing a great thing for the top players and given guys like Max home away to become famous and he's doing a ton of work for charity.

We want to protect that and we will defend that because live, no matter who's running it, they want to tear down the PGA tour structure and that's what people need to understand. They don't want to coexist. Um, a lot of players. Well, I think to that point, what I mean we've already seen. If you think about the Tuesday night dinner the Champions Center at the masters, you know it was the untouchable of untouchables. The chairman is

only there by invitation of the past champions. Well, the salty money has already completely infiltrated the sanctum sanctorum of all cluby dinners, the champions inner, because then you got Bubba Watson, Pat Read, Sergio Phil and Dustin all in their little group and you've got Big Jack and Gary Player, he might as all sit with him too. And then Big Jack, we don't know really where he sits. You

got all because the Saudi money has poured into the game. Meanwhile, I'm started to get emotional here, but in our lifetime we have and probably our parents and probably generations, that we have never had a U S president like Donald Trump who, no matter what you think of him politically, would not even commit to the peaceful trans or power.

Now we're talking about a game where our game, this game that we, you know, all three of us love and play a different levels, is committed on and Davis has starked about the rules again and again here, by by playing by the rules. But this guy would even commit to the rules of of democracy, the thing that we ultimately hold most sacred as possible. Now, Al and I talked about this lot. I think the end game for the Saudis here is something I think you know.

Paul Casey and Ian Poulter and and every last one, and they are pawns in this global, global game. And Davis, he alluded to earlier of what the Saudis are really trying to do here, and just the fact that they offered, if it's true and I imagined it is seven hundred million dollars tiger woods. Tiger Woods can't play fourteen events a year. He can't play three. So that shows it. This is not about money. This is like week. This is how powerful we are. We can buy Tiger Woods

and in the end they couldn't. We can buy Jack Nicholas for, you know, a mere hundred million, hundred million horrors out of their out of their pockets, like it's something. But they could buy pat read and they could buy Phil Michoelson and they found leverage points. But anyway, that's a worked up way of saying I'm sorry for getting

so worked up here. Davis, I I know you don't like to be publicly political and and this is and this question isn't meant to be that, but Donald Trump, he's a major figure in golf in a lot of ways. The PGA tour has said goodbye to Donald Trump. The PGA of America has, you know, he's not getting invited to August national only time soon. The RNA is and interested in him. But live golf has embraced this guy. Two tournaments this year. I imagined the only be more

next year. What do you think? It says a live golf that they have sought trump and trump has gladly globbed on to well, I think, Um, you know, politics is involved in this a lot of ways and and that's unfortunate because, no matter what you think, the people like Donald Trump and of people don't like Donald Trump. Of the people like this party, like that party, and that is the fight that Um, that's causing a lot of problems in this country. Um, divisiveness and unrest. And

now it's in Golf. And I liked listening to some of the guys on Fox. But then, but but then, now they're saying that trump's right and I don't think. I don't think Donald Trump understands the difference between the PG of America and the P G A tour. I don't think Lindsey Graham understand and the difference between the PGA of American and the PGA tour. And they're saying, well, these guys should just take the money. Um, I don't

think they really understand how the tour does business. I went to Washington when the last time the tour was was challenged on its Um tax exempt status. I Bet with a bunch of senators and Congressman Jack Nicholas wrote

a bunch of letters. Um, we had to literally explain to them how our termament structure works and why we give so much money to charity and why the players can play for so much because of the system that Davis love and Jack Nicholas and Tiger Woods and the Arnold Palmer family and the Dallas salesmanship club and the Phoenix Sunder Birds. They own and operate these term it's not the PGA tour and they're built just to give money to scarity. And if you've hurt that system, it's

going to cost you money. Uh, it's gonna cost you tax dollars, not not make you tax dollars. Um. So I don't think Donald Trump understands is that. You know, he just wants his clubs to be famous, himself to be on TV, and it doesn't surprise me that that live buys into that. But nobody's watching it doesn't really. They're not because, UM, Donald trump was in that box. You see it in the news clips. But there were how many people watch Tony Fenelle win two weeks in

a row? A lot of people watch that. Um, they saw a good golf. Tony Fe hit every green. You know, in Detroit, Um, it was great golf and it was real golf and that's the influence on the game. That's good what they're doing. It was. It's just a sideshow.

Let me ask you a question, Greg Norman. If Greg Norman at Dal when he's beating the stew out of us every year, if a guy was pouring beer out of the grandstands and another guy would catching it in his mouth while Greg was teeing off, or if there was a cart going down the Fairway Rodney Dangerfield with Loud Music Um, would Greg Norman not have lost his ever living mind and sent Steve Williams to beat them up?

It's so fake, you know. It's just it's not and the things that they say and do, it's it's not. It's not golf and so not surprising that Um, any kind of the side show, including trump, is included in it. That's interesting. Davis, did you play eighties six at Schanica hills? Yes, you know, and you maybe remember there. You know, uh, Greg Norman, fifty four old leader, and then you know, the crowd started getting on him just a little bit and he had the rabbit ears of rabbit ears so

I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, I saw him. I move a lot of photographers and a lot of volunteers and I don't. I don't think if I'd have had my jam box in my bag playing um when we played, it would have gone over very well. I would love to hear your playlist, Davis. I'm fascinated. What would be on that? My Grand Davis will surprise that has made me change it to two kids bop on x m when they get in my truck. It's it's it's from Christian two Pearl Jam Radio to outlaw country and then

to the NASCAR channel. You know. So I have a weird have weird presets. Now, Davis, this is a good point, Alan may not notice, to point out that Davis has been a committed hunter, s Thompson reader in his youth as well. So he's got a lot of moods, Ellen, and also, also, and I know, I know that Davis is a no, he's a Colectic that that's why, that's why he's on this podcast. As I saw. You know, Davis in his two years at the University of North Carolina was an English maker. And Alan, when you said

me and Bob Harrick. I saw a trific which, yeah, Bob Harrick, and I I mean it couldn't be simile. I didn't get that withth Carolina. I got that with a wooden spoon with my mom. Well, I was yeah, okay, I was trying to be colloquially. I wanted to make him field at home. Michael, my bad, I'm sorry, Um, but well, this is this has been a good education of the UH UH. You know, I feel like you're speaking for the tour and you're speaking for a traditionalists

and it's an important point of view. You know, I think michaellect was it. I'm somewhere more towards the middle of trying to trying to understand both sides, but it's it's valuable to hear your take on all these things, Davis. I think it's good to understand both sides and it's good to have a goal of somehow all this is working out. So agree with you, Um and and it is.

It is good to go scout it. But the thing about for the business of Tours, they're stealing employees from the U S G A, they're stealing Um vendors from other tournaments. You know, it's it's not. Um, they're not doing an amicable way. Um, it's a corporate, hostile takeover and and so that. Yes, in the end we want what's what's the best line. Always good for the game. You know, we want what's best for the game eventually.

But Um, you know, the world has changed a lot since the simple times of you know, when my dad played the PGA tour. My Dad was a club pro. So maybe times are a changing. But Um, they threw too many wrenches in there that that are hard to swallow. You know. Um, trevor and Loma made a great point. He said, you know, outside of the United States, Um, the world and the golf world doesn't have a problem

with the Saudis. And we really and have. Players have been released to play in their tournaments over the years. You know, they've gotten more and more. In fact, this last last year, it was there was one opposite the a t and t pebble beach and they let nineteen guys, I think, go play and they said look, if we're gonna let you do that, but some of you guys need to play Dallas, a t and t event, and you've got to play a t and t pebble beach

next year. We'll let you go. So we haven't had a thing against the Saudis or Dubai or Qatar or the European tour um or playing in Mexico or playing in China or playing in Korea. We don't. We haven't played the political game. Um. So outside of this country I don't. I don't think a whole lot of golf people by the Saudi money thing. I think it's a PR issue over here that you know, look at they pull logos off guy's chest because they went and did

it these companies in the United States. That that's gonna be hard to get over. You know, it's well, look what they did to Justin Thomas, you know, one comm and people just start dropping him like flies and he's a he's a great young man, you know. So that's a big issue in this country. Is You know, how how could um that ever fly, even if the tour wanted to do business with him? Could you do good business with them? Um, because of the political out atmosphere?

But I wanted to all work out. But I'M gonna fight for for my tour and for for my my tournament and rules that literally me and Jay Haas and Jeff sluman and Brad facts and board members that we set up because that's what the players asked us to do, and Jays just defending them. Davis, got a really narrow question for you. How do you explain slugger? Well, he was retired. That's the funniest comment. Um, when now when Sergio or somebody gets a bad ruling, they're like, I

can't wait to get off of this tour. Well, it's slugger is going to give you the ruling over there. It's the same, they ruly and there's probably gonna be less official, so he's probably gonna be giving lots of rulings. Um. But you know, there there's a lot of other names that aren't famous, like like slugger, that have come from other golf organizations that have got paid a lot of

money to go over there. TV people and, as I said, vendors, suppliers, tent guys that put up tents Um, have taken the money and you know, I just question again to Michael's point, if it does fall apart and all these people the money dries up because they could lose interest, you know. But it keeps going the way it's going now. Um, I would think somebody has to be accountable for hundreds of millions of dollars and and no revenue. You know the TV over here won't touch them. Um, it had

to be something bizarre from outside. We have TV partners long time on the PGA tour. I don't see them breaking ranks anytime soon. Um, people are gonna get tired of watching that same thing over and over again. And how you've been there, but it's gonna be the same thing over and over again. If it's a closed shop, you're gonna see these same same players over and over and over again. And is it interesting that Dustin Johnson hasn't one one yet and then maybe he will one one. Don't.

Is that interesting? I don't think I think it's interesting if Tony Fenel wins the Fedex Cup as great as he's hitting it, or it's Cam Young gonna bomb it around. You Know East Lake and when? When the Fedex Cup come in as a rookie? You know, I think those kind of things are are more interesting. You know, whins Justin and Jordan's gonna break break loose again. Those are more interesting than than watching the same guys play over and over again. Day's part of me for not knowing

the answer this. But just tiger have a role in your President's Cup team at the moment. He's he's an advisor. No, he's have webs Simpson and Zack Johnson, Fred couples and Steve Stricker and then, you know there's the the usual Um group that we rely on, Jim Furick Um, you know, all the way back to Tom Lehman's captaincy. We're all in this together and you know, supporting Um. Tiger has done an incredible job. The last Um couple after he was the captain, the next the next two he was.

He's been very involved in Um. You know, obviously he's got other issues. Like you said, you can't hardly play and it's hard for him to travel and Um. So he's trying to get himself back in shape. But yes, he's very involved and he's doing a lot to help um the tour and um a lot with his foundation. So he's staying busy and and and always helping me. I talked to him. I talked to him last night. As I said, he's a trusted I trusted Um boss.

Now he's not an advisor. He's already Davis does it make you sad that Phil Michelson will never be a writer Cup captain as it stands right now? Yeah, that's what at the point I tried to make him make to him, as you know, let let's try to figure this out before you go over there and start playing. Um. You know, we want Phil Micholson to be, as I heard from Michael, we want him to be an honorary starter at the masters. We want him to be a rider,

Cup captain, President's Cup captain. He deserves he deserves that. You know, it's gone from he's a word he's a hero at Kila on the ocean course, two people calling, maybe only one or two, calling, for him to be thrown out of the hall of fame. I mean it's it's a a tragic decline. So it's very sad. I mean he's a I don't know how many twelve teams I was on with him, and then assistant captain teams that he played, Captain Team that he played. So we've

got maybe twenty tans together. Yeah, it's gonna be very sad for me as an old guy. I want to thank cam young maybe that Dustin Johnson and Phil Nicholson aren't aren't a part of the team. I loved how Brooks kept going the teams. We we had a great um you know, maybe quiet, quiet GRANDPA grandson relationship, like he had a problem. He game to me. If I told him what to do, he did it. Um. I have a lot of respect for him the way he played on those teams and the passion he played with. Um.

It's gonna be sad not to have brooks. I got a ball marker in my backpack right now from the Ryder Cup it whistling straits that he left in his locker that I don't know what am I supposed to do with. Does he he don't carry more? Or is he never going to play another one? It's all those things are very, very sad. And you see me make comments on TV UM defending the tour, but it's hard to do that because Hudson swofford lives on our island and he's friends with the tour players that lived there

and now he's suing them. It's very, very sad. Is he still? Is he still friends with those players? Um, we don't know. You know, we're so early into this island. What do you do when you run into a guy if he happens to be in the locker room or at the in our case at the grocery store. You know. Um, hey, how's how you doing? How's the family? Um, how's your lawsuit against US going? Um, I'm not experienced enough in this. Don't know what to do. I am praying for you. Um,

have a nice summer and walk off. It hurts. Good Golf takeing golf has taking a professional golf has taken a serious hit here already. It makes us look greedy and arrogant and elite, all the things that we tried not look at. Look at where we've come in the

last twenty years on diversity, inclusion, growing the game. Augusta national is sponsoring a drive, chip and PUTT and letting little kids come play on their course and and the women play the last round of the Augusta amateur on Augusta national and they go around the world hosting amateur events. They send Johnny Harris from Quail Hollow to go run, you know, the Asian amateur or something. The things the PGA,

junior league golf. Little kids come up to me and sign, have me sign their hat and then I tell them turn around. So I can see what number you are because they're on a PGA junior league golf team and they wore their shirt to the P G A tour event. Um, and all the great things the U S G A is doing, the first t my tournament and so many other players on the tour support local first tea chapters.

We've done a great job of growing the game and it's just it's just sad that all you're seeing in the news is hundred million dollars here and a hundred million dollars there and lawsuits. That's that's not what m been crunch Il would say. That's not what Byron Nelson and Ben Hogan and Jack Nicholas and Arnold Palmer intended for us to be doing right now. Well, that seems like a good a good stopping point. Um Davis, you've been very generous with with your time. You're in the

middle of a tournament here. You should be thinking about your putting stroke, not all this, but I guess that's part of being an ambassador of the sport. You're always on duty. So thank you for your for your time and your insight and I have a feeling this we'll have another one of these conversations at some point, because it was definitely enlightening for me. And Yeah, there will be many updates to this. Yeah, hopefully I run into both of you soon at at a big tournament. What

are your dinner plans? Oh, I think, I think I know lamps. Yes, the the great lance bearer from CBS sports who's retired, is Um, is here this week. It's a big week in CBS. You know, Sir Nick Faldo, Um, this is his last event and so I have to stop by the booth and and come up with something quippy to say to him. And but yeah, dinner with Lance and Um and friends. So it's a the tour life is not very glamorous, but we do get out and have some fun hotels and restaurants and and grocery stores, Um.

But UH, well, we'll have a good night tonight and I'm sure there'll be great conversation about the state of the game. I love it. Yeah, let's do another podcast tomorrow and we talk about the dinner like I think we could have. We have daily updates. I love it so well. I'd love to do it again with you guys, hopefully after after we picked the President's Cup team and then, after we win them, let's go. Yeah, that would be great. All right, we accept your offer. Yeah, that'll be true us, Davis.

Thank you Allan Thank you okay. Well, this was a very enlightening conversation. Thank you to David's love for his time. Michael Bamberger, this is Allen Schip nick signing off from another fire drill podcast. We will keep them coming as current events demand. As always, we thank you guys for listening and put back in your ear soon. That's it. Put another log on the fire. Nobody hears. GET THE TIME