Fire Drill 030: To The Linksland

the left. You know if it's going to run a hundred yards but sort of bounces it gets so you've never got to pick up the team moment at the Old Course, which is I don't know. People think it's flukey and there's a bit of luck involved, but there's no luck involved. If that if Tom Own, Nicholas sevy Faldo, Tiger one, there so much that's that's actually removing luck. If you actually analyzed it, probably put another log on

the fire nobody hears. Give it time. Hello, This is Alan ship knocked back for another Fire Drill podcast, delayed to be joined by Michael Bamberger, Matt Janella and US Open champion Jeff Ogilvie. We're talking about the Old Course and the Open Championship and all the related fun issues real quick. Want to thank our corporate sponsors will help us keep the lights on here at the Firebit Collective that's part Points, Seed Golf and Link Soul. We've talked

about each of these companies individually. We believe in them, we use our products, we love them, and so thank you for the support to all those fine places. And so let's just let's just jump right in here, Jeff. What makes the Old Course such a charming test of golf and such a fun tournament venue? Wow? I mean the name helps you know a minutes the O g right, it's the original golf course. Um, it's been there forever.

Just driving from Edinburgh an exciting experience. I feel like the closer you get to the town, the me start saying sort of the buildings and it's just so old and it's just such a just the town I think makes it as much as anything else. There's grooves in the sidewalk from the metal spikes over the last few

hundred years walking up the side. You're actually out of place if you're not wearing golf clothes when you go anywhere there, And it's truly just it's just in the it's just in the buildings, and it's in the town, just the culture of the game over the last four or five hundred years, and the golf course itself, it is just it's the best first team in golf place by some stretch. I think it's a very nerve wracking, exciting,

thrilling sort of experience. Just tearing off on the old course and you've got this very docile, gentle first hole which doesn't really give you any sets of what's to come. And then you get in the second hole and you just get further and further away and sort of spotted with these random bunkers all over the place, and the course makes no sense at all. And then the more you play it, the more you play it, gradually it it sort of shows itself. And it doesn't you can't

work it out. It'll show you when it's ready to show you, you know, and you've got to play it lots and lots of times and lots of different way the conditions, and gradually it sort of starts making it a sense. To the point when you get to the you come to a realization or and a waking or a moment of enlightenment that you realize that this is actually why golf is such a great sport, because this is the starting point of the whole thing, and it's set it off in such an amazing direction, and it

just makes you. It makes you a better golfer, and it makes you like golf more than you did before. And as you come back into town, you're getting closer and closer and closer and closer to town. The spires on the cathedrals in the buildings are getting taller and taller,

and you're getting closer to the seventeenth. Sort of you've gotten your mind for the last few holes, and then you get to come up eighteen, which is the flip of which is the flip of the first with this big wide fairway, and you've even outside the open, you've got spectators. They're crossing the fairway. When you've got to wait for spectators cross the fairway while you're about to play eighteen. People clap applaud good approach shots on eighteen,

even on a public play day. And you come all the way back into town and I'm into the clubhouse at a loss. It's just everything. As I said, I just think golf is such an amazing sport because it got set off in such a good direction by the all course to begin with. I think we should just end this podcast like that, that's a rap, saying it's a rap? What do we say on top of that? Transcribe it printed out for your grandchildren, because you're not

going to get a better description. I mean, I'm literally about to I'm like, actually, I am, I am, I have a tear in mynd Like I was like, oh my god, that was That was like the only only quibble, Jeff. I would say, it's the trolleys that create the rut in the sidewalks. In other words, the jets come down with their trolleys right down through your town, and it's

that was beautiful, Jeff. Well, I mean, Matt and Michael, you guys like myself, we've been privileged to be there, for to be in Saint Andrew's during open weeks and just during regular play. I mean, what are some of your your favorite memories and some of your favorite experiences there. Well, yeah, I was very fortunate. I got a trip over to the UK with dad. My dad was visiting his sort of aging mother who I've basically never met, and she lived in the Isle of Man, this little island between

the UK and Ireland. So the whole purpose is the trick was to visit her so he could see her one last time. But he sort of took me with him and we sort of landed London and we got a rental car and we just drove around and I was already frothing on golf and I'd read a lot of books by then, which is kind of weird for

a sixteen year old kid. But we ended up traversing the country and got to the Old Course at one point, and just as I said, it's just the excitement when you come into the town is worth the trip, just to go to the town and visit. And normally when you play the Old Course, you've got to go in the ballot. You can't book a tea time, really, you go and you've got to put your name down with the startup for every time the next day. And so

we did that. We were laid into town four or five o'clock the day before and we put our name down. The guys like, you're doubtful here, but you never know. You'll see how you go. And we missed out on the ballot. But he said, if you don't get the ballot, come down as a two ball, there might be a two ball who gets on and they might let you join.

So he turned up at like seven or eight in the morning and waited around, and finally there's this Swedish couple who said, yeah, we'd love to play with another two So we got out that first day we were there, which was incredibly fortunate. We went out with them and played and played it at sixteen, and I was in love for the first moment. I mean, I kind of want to hate it because everyone historically has hated it first time and Bobby Jones tore up his card and

walked off the course. I mean, there's a lot of stories like that. But I loved every minute because I knew I wanted to like it before I got there, so it wasn't really a fair thing. But I had beautiful weather, played it, had a great time, so I was lucky to play it at sixteen. And then I played the Sandrews Lynks Trophy and amatea tournament probably the coolest ammuate tournament in the world by a long stretch.

It used to cost US forty pounds to play the Sandrew's Links Trophy, which was around on the Old and the new first day and then thirty six on the old on the Sunday, so you would or the second day so you would get a practice round on the older the new, and three rounds around the Old and another round on then for forty pounds. This is the best deal in the world with all the best golfers in the world played with Justin Rose in that and a tone of the guys that you sort of see

today or you've seen over the time. Everyone who can't play that tournament does and it was so I played it a lot growing up as an amateur. And then the three opens there a few eyes, a few other visits. Scottie and I Adam used to come and go and camp a couple of times. We camped in the Old

Course hotel before and opened. When it opened was somewhere else and we'd stay there and you would play all around five Fleet, London Links and leaven Links and Krayle and all the Sandrew's courses and it's just an incredible region. But the Old Course is just the place. Yeah, And my first Open I finished, I wasn't playing very well the whole time, and I'd just snuck in and make

the cut. I think I parted Birdie the eighteenth at nine twenty on Friday night to make the cut and had a nice week, and it was really slow playing in the Open at Sandrew's, which is my only pick probably playing the Open at Sandrew's because all the double greens, like in US Precious Pros, we're not going to hit when somebody else is hitting, so we're always waiting for

somebody else to part and hit a shot. You're always you're often playing the holes from the other fairway, the corresponding fairway on the way in because the strategy a long times just to go up the other side. Had finished fifth in the end, that one that Tiger won his second one sort of had a backdoor fifth Birdie sixteen thirty, fifteen, seventeen and eighteen. I've had a birdie seventeen on Sunday, was pretty nice feeling, hit it up on the green about twenty five feet and made the part.

That was a pretty nice feeling, and you get that fantastic raw that you get the British Open that's unique only to that tournament. And then Birdie the last to finished fifth. Felch was pretty exciting, so lots of good memories. It's been a pretty learn how to drink scotch whiskey on that top floor, that whiskey bar up the top of the Old Court hotel. That's sort of taught me how to like scotch. So um a lot of times.

It's an address, that's true. I think there's only one slight note we could add to everything that's been said. It's so obvious, but there maybe some people don't know. It's a muni. I was going to say it's closed on Sundays and used as a park land for the locals. That's the best part about it. And I think it's and that's Scotland again. It's not only the old course that's set off golf in the right direction. It's Scotland. We all everywhere. All the other countries managed to mess

it up, but they started it off so well. It's it's the it's the town's land. It's public land. You can't nobody owns it. There's a golf club that operates and sort of looks after the land, but nobody owns it and the golfers generally, the public has a right away over the golfers. You know, it's their lands, Like you can play golf here if you lock, but don't get in the way of anyone who's just trying to

have a good time. You know. Such a fantastic athos and golf kind of lost its way, and the place is sort of grasp that concept that this is sort of a game for all and a bit of this is a nice area and you can play golf if you want to let everyone out out here enjoy it as well. I think it's fantastic when you go there Sunday and there's people walking their dogs on the eight eighth, that's sitting down having a picnic in the valley of sin and stuff. It's just incredible. It's just makes it

even more special. It's which I just I just I just saw it for the first time on a Sunday, after having gone there several times and played fortunate enough to play the course several times. The first time I played it was actually with Alan, which is a whole

separate story which I hope we get to. But I rolled up on a Sunday and was just captivated and astounded by the visuals, which was the way of the dogs, the throwing the balls with kids, the picnicking in the valleys, and like it was all happening right there, and I was like, oh, this really is closed on Sundays and this really is open to the public. And that it made me feel exactly that same sentiment, which is, how

did we lose our way? How did we get so far removed from what this is as it relates to the game of golf, And we were just chatting just before coming on, and the beauties of some municipals haven't lost their way, like goat Hill Park where dogs are allowed, where you can where John Ashworth essentially has created that ethos, which is that golf for all, come as you are. This is your recreational time. Who am I to say

what you were or how you know? Yeah, they're general rules, but otherwise, go have fun, utilize this land in a way that makes sense as a community. It's just so special when you come upon it and feel like you know and and again the idea that the old course is it and has been it for hundreds of years.

It's like, just look back to that as your guide if you're managing a municipal, if you are in you know, if you are a municipality, this is it, Well might add to that, it's also it's truly our mecca and when you go there, there's a very large expectation that you'll play with people who do not speak English. People come from all over the world to play that golf course because people all over the world love this game. I think that's part of the beauty of it as well.

I can't think of another golf course where you would say that so clearly. Yeah, well, okay, since Matt mentioned it, we just have to tell the story. We'll do the short version of the first time we played the old course. This was ninety seven. We went on this bender that was organized by some other sports illustrated guys. It was sixteen rounds and nine days. First time I've ever been

in Scotland. Really somewhat uneducated about the links golf experience, and so we got to the Old course and didn't realize he had to show proof of handicap. We did not have any cards. This is before smartphones and this there's a grumpy old starter in the shack said well, you'll have to provide proof if you're going to play the course. And so this was in the this was early morning and so in Scotland. We were racking our brains. You know, everyone in New York we knew was asleep.

Even in California. It was probably eleven o'clock at night. But match brother was living in Hawaii, so would the time change. So we were like, oh, we got to call Sean. And so we rang them up on some public phone and explain the situation and asked if he

could concoct some counterfeit letter attesting to our handicaps. And so he had some graphic design skills, so he made up was at the Bay Country Club like a phony letter head and instead and not only did he write like our our handicaps, it was like this long, flowery letter about how we were upstanding members of the club and we we were the chairs of this committee, and we had volunteered for for this and that, and it was this an unbelievable letter that he faxed over to

the starter and I'll never forget this. This this like wrinkly um, you know, old Scottish dude with the gin blossoms on a those like wraps on the glass. He's like, gentlemen, your letter has been received. And it was like, oh, thank God, And we got to go and play the old course, but it was one of the all times Shenanigans. Well yeah, and then then the thing was is that we had to get picked in the ballot, like we

had to wait, we had to get it. We had to get an available time because we didn't get the ballot box. We had to get an available time, and we had to get this this proof of handicap. And so while we were waiting for a spot, we went to that little pay phone that I still think i've I saw recently right down the street, right near the museum, and that's what we called. We called my brother and he pretended to be some sort of director of golf at Turtle Bay Golf Club down the street in Hawaii.

And that's how we were able to get on. I mean we had we had a handicap. We weren't we weren't in theory sort of you know, violating any kind of came out of play golf. But we didn't have any of the necessary credentials. That's actually the lowest my handicaps ever been. I think he made me like a plus one or something. And then we went out back, we went out again. We went back out for another eighteen holes, we got separated, but we went back out and we got to play two eighteen hole rounds in

one day. Yeah. And to your point, Michael, I got paired with these airline pilots and they were Scandinavian. I can't remember which country they hailed from, and you know, they weren't speaking English, and but they were good players and it was just like, um, it is. It is an amazing melting pot. And and you know, let's talk about the merits of the old course, Jeff. I want your take on this as as it's become so much of a power game and they have tipped it out

as much as they can. You're now teeing off on three or four different golf courses. It feels like where they've they've put these new teas for the open to try and keep up. And I mean, for for the recreational golfer's it's as fun as it gets and the challenge is never ending. Um. But for for the best pros, I mean, does does the old course still stay in the test of time? What was your take on that?

I think so. I mean, it's disappointing someone where that some of the teas are now that you kind of have to um because the coolest part about the old course is probably you you finished the first I mean one of those ten original rules. Are those one of the eight original rules of golf. It's like tea up within one club length of the previous hole. Used to just you just put out and you're tee it up next to the hole and you'd go that was the rules.

The old course actually does that. The traditional original teas are basically touching the previous grain. You play the first, you walk to the edge of the first green, you play, the second, you walk to the edge of the second green, you play the third. You do that all the way around. Now we walk back one hundred yards in every hole, which is necessary. And that's a debate for a different time, but I think it generally does. I don't think par.

You've got to take par away from the equation and just see what questions does it ask, and it just it asks every question. You've got to move the ball both ways. You've got to understand. You've got, as I said before, you have to play the course a lot. Because everyone's complaint when they first play the old course, as they say it's blind, but it isn't blind. It's

actually it shows you where to hit it. You just have to play the hole that you play the course enough to sort of start learning what to look at you it. Gradually she shows herself over time and playing it in lots of different conditions. Bunkers that you thought were just made no sense at all, and this place is weird. The next day when it blows into the wind, all of a sudden, you're hitting it into those bunkers

you didn't even think. We're sort of relevant bunkers. And as time goes on, it's the ultimate sort of think test for a golfer. It's an execution test because you're ball. You're never on a flatler. Your ball is always above your feet or blow your feet down slope, up slope. The bunkers have some other worldly mystical magnetism to them that it just goes from you think you've given it forty thirty forty yards, I mean you give it twenty yards of sort of air on the right or left

of some of these bunkers. It's the width of the viewers open fairway and the ball will still find its way into it. So you've got to really understand the course. What wind does to a lynx and hit all the shots. I mean it looked historically back I mean Peter Thompson won there, Jack won there, Tiger dominated their Foaldo one there when he was number one in the world. It's a it's a sort of a platform for the best to show why they're the best, because it's a complete

test of golf. And I don't think that changes even with shorter clubs into the holes. I really don't, because the question you're doing it with different clubs, but the questions are still asked. And I think often wedges into greens at the old course is sometimes a disadvantage because it's easier to be running the ball in with a sixth n sometimes than it is with a wedge. So I think the scores get a lot lower and it's

a lot longer than it used to be. But I think the fascination there isn't really they're hitting it straight up the fairway and hitting it straight on the green.

It's finding your best way around it, and sometimes that can be thirty forty degrees off to the left or thirty forty degrees off to the right, and then quite often you'll play it up the fifth on the fourteenth hole, which is you're making a five hundred and fifty yard hole six hundred and fifty yards, but it's avoiding the bunkers and making sure you don't hit it into hell bunker on your second shot. You're making sure two shots before that that you can't hit it into hell bunker

and stuff like that. So I think that's all still there. I think you'll see great players win there or players with complete games putting. It's an amazing test. I mean, I think one of the funnest parts about the open there is that the fairways and the greens are basically the same speed. You know, the last a couple of times we've been there, they've had to put dots around the edge of the green just so we can see where the pin position is is measured from, because it

really is irrelevant. The ball acts the same fairway degreen, and I think that's sort of beautiful and when we lost that in golf, and you can't really create it in any other places but links. But I think that's one of the coolest part about it. And I think maybe the best part about it why I think it's a great test is the Yadish books are almost irrelevant. You know, you cannot play the Old Course of a Yardish book. I mean the Yardist books are a lot better now and they sort of give you lines and

stuff and all that. But you, as I said, you just have to play the course so much and have the imagination to realize how to avoid the bunkers and best get around there. And that's not a yardist book thing. That's just an open minded sort of use your experience, use all of your requisite skills to sort of navigate around it with avoiding the bunkers and creating angles where

you can actually play it from. And I don't think that's got anything to do with distance, So I think that's um it's a deeper version of golf, which I think is always interesting regardless of how low it is relative to part. It's still to me one of the most amazing things that Tiger Wood's ever did in his unparalleled careers that he played sevent two holes in an Open Championship at the Old Course and didn't hit it

into a single bunker. It's just incredible. It's main biggling because as you said that, you know a lot of the land slopes towards they're like funnels. They you can hit a good shot and it's still just by one yard, it catches the wrong bounce and it just funnels fifteen yards into the bunker. Like it's just it's absolutely incredible. You can almost not pick up You see pros pick up the tea. You know that drives. It drives on

tour every week and you see golfers. But you hit a drive and you just pick up the tea and you walk off. You can't pick up the See the Old Course, you never know where it's going to finish, you know, there's no it's because down when the ball runs one hundred yards and just like the ball can go, you could land on the right hand side of the

fairway and mister fairway to the left. You know if it's going to run a hundred yards but sort of bounces it gets so you've never got to pick up the team moment at the Old Course, which is I don't know. People think it's flukey and there's a bit of luck involved, but there's no luck involved. If that if Tom Own, Nicholas Sevy Faldo Tiger one, there so much that's that's actually removing luck. If you actually analyzed it, probably Um, it's fantastic, Michael. You've you've been referred to

as the poet of the lynx Land. Um. You know, Jeff, Jeff plays the course one way with his boundless skill. You love the ground game to the point that the e club you invented was in Lee Trevino's bag at the Old Course. Um, so what is it about about

that canvas that particularly, you know, stirs your soul? Well, thank you for remembering that, Alan, And I think it's telling that Jeff just referred You never hear this anymore, but people used to refer to ships is with a feminine pronoun and Jeff just referred to the Old Course with she and and Trevino after he went to Mary and said, you know, I just fell in love with a you know, a girl named Mary, and I don't

even know her last name or something like that. But in other words, the point being is that a really great golf course does come alive and part of the life of this golf course. This wouldn't just be true for Jeff and Jeff's level, it would be true for everybody. There are so many ways to play every single shot there, like if you go to if you go to the press room, a Quad Cities guy will say, you know I hit a three when you know the Ferway hit

a six armhole high, I made the putt. You could never go through your car that quickly at the Old Course for any of us, because there's so many options on every single shot and h and that's part of the fascination, you know. I had this conversation with with with Fred Couples for us pardon me. First Open Championship was eighty four at the Old Course, and he fell in love with it completely. This was astounding to me.

But I'm gonna I'm gonna do it in the form of a question, Jeff, what is the longest shot you've ever hit into eighteen at at the Old Course? I had a couple of times in the Links Trophy where it played into the wind and we really struggled to get it to the road. Um, which is what one twenty front, one hundred hundred and twenty front something like that. Um. Yeah, so probably an eight on from one hundred and ten or something. Probably that's Fred had the exact same thing.

I couldn't believe it because I played in a lot of different wins, but I've never played anyone, you know. And even that even for the ordinary golfer, you know, to hit driver into the valley center in still conditions or down wind, it's not that hard. But Fred in his first year on Sunday hit driver that maybe just made it to the road and then he hit a nine are in which he holds uh to end his day. So on any given day the golf course is so

so different. Um, just to add one little thing to this that we would we would all know instinctively, but but just to say it out loud, when you think about how how old the old course is and that there's really no known architect, and that Charles Blair McDonald, uh, you know, great American aristocrat who basically invented golf in American away went over there, fell in love with the game and brought it back and started building golf courses around the turn of the last century. And then this

Golden Age period of architects. And Jeff Smida said this because he's working at Mednah, but Medignah and Maryon which we've already mentioned, in Pine Valley and Riviera and almost every other course, they're sort of interpreting what McDonald already brought to the United States right from Saint Andrew's. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that that multiplayer and feed effect of Saint Andrew's is built everywhere

in golf. How about how about this if you take Old Tom and his impact on architecture, and you take Donald Ross who came and spent time with Old Tom and essentially learned from Old Tom, and then Donald Ross comes to the US and builds Fort Bragg. I believe in Pete Dye worked at Fort Bragg and used to call Donald Ross from time to time to sort of better understand the essence of Fort Bragg as maybe even

a superintendent at the time. Pete Dye goes on to be an architect, and then Bill Core works for Pete Dye and then goes on to be an architect. Essentially, you have lineage from Old Tom all the way to Bill Kore, who's currently still building golf courses. It's beautiful, Yeah, I mean, how cool is that? It's really cool? Very very cool. You know, these lines through the game are part of why we love it so much. And and you know, and Augusta National is neat and we all

love being at Augustina National. But you know the fact that the starting point here is that the whole world can come and play this place. By the way, I've never had the experience of showing up at Saint Andrew's and not being able to get on the old course. And I'm not talking about calling friends you know who are members places. I just mean showing up at the shack like like Jeff did with his dad, giving them your name and sitting there and reading a book until

they call your name. What do you talk about? Augusta Augusta that was Jones's Saint Andrews in America. Um, that was his whole point. If you when you play holes like five and fourteen, it's like that's just that's all that is, is the old course. It's just it's just so obviously the Old course, so America's most famous golf course. A direct connection. It was. He was trying to mimic the shots you needed it the old course in Tuja,

Like it's the effect is incredible. Yeah, I mean, that's that's why it stands a test of time, is because it inspires us and um, the shot values and the strategy and you know, I remember the first time I played it, just standing there looking at those double greens that you know, we're one hundred yards wide, and I think on on fifteen or was it maybe it might have been sixteen, but I hit like a vicious hook and I had about one hundred and twenty yard put

from the you know, the other green, and um, I lag it up to like eight feet. It's one of my favorite memories. And all golf like, um, you know, I'd never seen that before. And then um and then you go, you go to these these neo courses and they're excited because they've built a couple of double greens and and um, like it's like the these these these ideas are so enduring, and they're the simplicity. Everybody know,

the demonic to remember the double greens. They always add up to what, oh the magic number of a magic numbers eighteen? Yeah, yeah, there's But it's so great. It's so great because there's no human ego involved. Like the course, the old course created the game. The game didn't create the old course. I mean, people build golf courses to play golf on. The old course created the game. That's

why it's so great. That's why all that bunkers are in the right place, and the whole place makes sense because the game evolved around that piece of land, you know, and that game that of land created the game we play now. You know. That's that's why it's timeless and it works because it's everything is where it is because that's just where the game was best played from and

the property created that. You know. That's why they're such magnetic bunkers because they weren't bunkers and the boards just always ended up there and so it ended up being a hole, so it created it just became a bunk as that's where the ball always ended up. You know, it's fantastic. Jeff, have you have you ever played the Old Course reverse? Do you know about this? Yeah? They do it once or twice a year. I think it's fascinating. Ever actually done it. You've got to pay there on

that day Rot. Yeah, well you've got to plan it all out. It would be really interesting because a lot of the holes make a lot of sense the way we play them now, but a lot of them make no sense, like the twelve Holes, the most ridiculous Old World, and you play it backwards, it's like, oh, okay, now I get it exactly. I did it in two thousand and four, it's on it's on April Fools Days when when they do it, which shows that RNA does have

a sense of humor. And um, if you can think of the you know, the course is basically a loop, and normally you play it counterclockwise, but for most of the history of the older course they played it month by month in different other direction. One time you go clockwise, but times you go counterclockwise. And I'm not saying this to be like a hipster. I actually liked it better in reverse. Some of the holes made more sense and

some of the shots were more fun. And but you know, in after after World War two, and it depends if you're Missus Rowles if you miss it rot. Yeah, it totally does, totally does. But um, and it's wild to think that that's possible. Now Tom Doe can mimic the whole concept um at Forest Dunes and did an incredible job. But um, the it just it melts your brain to think about like this golf course can you can play

in either direction? And um, and you know when when you play in reverse, the iconography is totally different, Like you're hitting a draw around the old course hotel down the road hole and um, stuff like that. You know, it's it still works and um, anyway, I'll have to oft to see if I can find my old story that Rover for Sports Illustrating. If we can, if we can show, I'll link to it on on Firepick Collective

dot com. Because it's just it's it tells you how great that piece of land is, how clever the hazards are and and the bunkers that you can go either direction and it's still a fabulous test. You know. Um, we spent some time over there, the fire Pick Collective rolled in there, you know, we were we were hired by MasterCard to do some stories leading into the Open one hundred and fiftieth Open, and so the idea we came up with was pay homage to old Tom Morris.

And we went in with just sort of the general sense of like, let's try to learn as much as we can about old Tom Morris. And we started reaching out to historians and teachers, and you know, we stopped by the museum, We went to local business owners like the the and then we ran into and got access

to Sheila Walker, his great great granddaughter. Michael. You wrote a beautiful a little basically little mini essay about Sheila Walker because you happen to bump into her in one of the open uh you know, wandering around it during one of the Open Championships, which we read leading into it, and the whole goal was like can we find Sheila Walker too, which we ended up getting a two and a half hour interview with her that we ultimately ended up being the spine of our four part series that's

on Firepit Collective dot com now. And then we got to go back for Patron's Day. But I have I always was fascinated by old Tom and then getting a chance to speak to his great great granddaughter, who, by the way, lives still above the shop, looking out over the window, out of the window overlooking the eighteenth Green. She still lives there. She's in her seventies. She's like one of the most magnificent people I've ever interviewed in

my life. She tends her garden in the backyard of what literally is the home at the Home of Golf. I mean, this is the home of Golf. On the door it still says like old Tom Morris, you know house, like this is the Tom Morris house. And we got to wander her garden with her and Michael. You would ask her like, oh, do you you know, do you have the same green thumb that he had, you know, sort of as his contributions to the agronomy of golf, most notably top dressing, which is still used, you know,

wildly today. And she said, oh, no, no, no no, I have green it's green fingers. It's not green thumb, it's green fingers. She to this day still walks across the eighteenth Green and the first tea out to the beach, collects a little bucket of sand that she then brings back to her yard and top dresses her little patch of grass that she has in her backyard. It is like, this is still happening right now as we speak. Great

marketing op for fire Pick Collective. We go over there with water bottles, fill it with Saint Andrew's Bay Beach sand, put it on ebit, sell it, sell it. Actually, she said that the beach, not all beaches are what's that

movie out? And yes, yeah, they use that beach, but you know, she points out Sheila points out that that not all beaches have the kind of minerals that help, you know, grass grow and Fortunately the Saint Andrew's Beach does and we get top dressing because, as the story was told to us, that one of Old Tom's workers was walking through the course with a wheelbarrel full of sand and it toppled over, and so they scooped it back up and they continued on with the wheelbarrow, and

afterwards noticed that where that sand had dropped and there was this top dressing of sorts. This the grass was growing better than the other grass. So we incorporated that and said, well, let's put it all over the golf course. And that's top dressing. Amazing. Jeff, do you have any memory Can you remember specifically being announced on the first tea the first time you would have played the old

course in an opened I imagine by Iva Robeson. Yeah, I don't specifically remember it because I don't think I would be hearing it. I'll be just sort I've opened or not. I don't think the headspace changes on that team. It's a nervous experience. It's just it's an incredible there's an incredible and there can be nobody there and there's atmosphere just for you. I mean, it's a self created atmosphere in it when you hit that t shot, it's I've always the best. I mean, he's had such that

most distinct voice. M No real specific memories, but completely freaking out. Like I you get nervous on the first team mages, but it's different, it's different there, there's a whole other element to it. Getting the ball on the tea is pretty tough and you just hope to make contact. It's very thankful that it's an easy shot generally, just bump a the line down there and on your go. But just to your story about Freddie. Before, I've seen the first I've played the first hole where I've hit

driver six iron short of the burn. Wow. And I've played it where I've hit five, and I've played it where I've hit five iron in the burn off the tea. So yeah, the course changes every day. But yeah, it's a freaky. It's a it's a special nerves though it's a happy it's not a scared nervous that too, is it. It's just a respect for the whole place nervous and um, you're kind of a bit on your own too, Like the first teas and majors, due usually there's people everywhere.

It's quite. It's quite a rowdy atmosphere. The spectators don't really start there until you get down to sort of one hundred meters off the tea sort of thing on the right and they're way away on the left. Um, so you kind of just with the group in the start there, which is a kind of a nice and a few of the the bluecoats on the steps with a gin and tonic or a glass around or something having a look at having a look down the fairway with you. But yeah, it's a fantastic first tea shot. Wow.

Like Jordan Speet just said this last week, you know that that an Open at Saint Andrew's is the best tournament we play. I think you arguably in there, which I wish he hadn't, but um, I think that was he was just being played. I mean, you know, a US Open at Pebble Beach or at at Oakmans, you know that's special. But um, can we say without a doubt that this is this is the greatest feather in the cap of any golfer to win the Open at

the Old Course? Is there that even in a debate and to that point, Alan and I know we don't do this easily but the career of Zack Johnson is astounding. For for Zack Johnson, who might be sneaky long, but isn't long long to have one at the Old Course in Augustine National is a real incredible statement on his golfing skill and his intelligence. He just he forever and now he's a writer Cup captain for whatever reason, he doesn't really he's not in the pantheon conversation. But and

he's not, but he's damn damn close. And those two things alone, you know, for John You know, John Daly, how he didn't win a Masters is almost a mystery, but the fact that he did win there playing it totally differently, I imagine, from the way that plays it. I remember Nicholas was almost freaking out by some of the shots that Daly was playing when he won there, because it's just like, that's not how you played the

Old Course. But but the truth is it is how he plays the Old Course, because there's numerous ways to play it. In fact, Fred said the same thing the other day. He was playing with Gary Player those first rounds and eighty four, and Gary Player said, sound you a good golfer, but that's not how you paid the old course, and Fred's like, I didn't know any better. That's awesome. Oh so, Michael, you're you're actually a voter for the Hall of Fame. Let's put you on the spot.

Is Zack Johnson a Hall of Famer? He's got I think a dozen wins. He's got those two majors at the holiest of holies. Yes or no Hall of Famer. I can say this because I said it to Fred's face. I didn't vote for Fred. Uh so uh I h and he's in. So now that Fred's in, it would be completely totally unfair not to have zach in Davis is in Fred's and yes he's you know, fore Yorick's getting in. I'm voting for Ogilby just because of the introduction he gave to the old person Lifetime Lifetime game.

Just a very quick note for those who don't know Iver Robes and that name will fade in time over the years, but you know, the four of us know

that name. He was a long time starter. He had any eccentric habits which won't get into now, but one of his things, and Jeff helped me, if I don't have this quite right, is he would he would say the name of the player he would say on the tea and then well, I'll just do it like he did on the tea from Australia, and then there'd be a little pause and then it would be like he would be surprised, but like he's got the name there and he's looking at the guy on the tea from Australia,

Jeff Ogilby. That was very good. Yeah, but it was the pause. Yeah, No, it's a dramatic pause, dramatic effect. Janella has stuck onto the first tea on the tea from USA, not Jella, and he would stand on the first tea at the open from seven o'clock till four twenty and never leave the first tea for anything. It's unbelievable, like four days, absolutely on le legend. And by the way, I know you players don't like it, but we like it.

The idea of starting everybody on that first tea and everybody finishing on eighteen is absolutely part of the appeal of the whole thing. And they killed that US Open at Marion when they did this weird, weird way of starting things. But you know, you get unlucky, but you get lucky. But it plays out over time. Can I I'm realizing my role and my role on this podcast is just to randomly insert some really cool Old Tom anecdotes.

But in the in the in the record, in the production of what we created this four part series, we there was a snow day one of the days. We woke up, we looked out the window and the old courses covered in snow. It was like it was like two inches of snow on the old course, I mean, and we were like, oh my god. And we essentially went out and you know, we had snowball fights, we built snowman. It was We've flew the drone. It was like it was like a playground. And by two o'clock

and it all burnt off. But we ended up calling and meeting up with Gordon mckeeth, the current superintendent, the course manager, they call him and would you believe that he's only the ninth course manager since Old Tom Morris's He's and he says to this day that you know, Old Tom's face is in the side of the RNA clubhouse near the clock, I believe, overlooking the old course. And he says, you know that matters to him, like he thinks about him every day that he's managing this

piece of turf, which is just tremendous. The ninth superintendent that is, I think there's something we're leaving out here. Of course, it's a great university town, it's got wonderful museum, it's got night restaurants. One of the great drinking towns of all time ever anywhere. Now, Jeff Cheff made a reference to it, Uh, you know, drinking Scotch whiskey on the whiskey on the up in the old Coursey tail. But it's a load of it bars and of course

you walk to your hotel. I say this not as a heavy drinker myself, but if you choose to be a heavy drinker, it's a great place to be a heavy drinker, as long as you look both ways before crossing the street, because traffic can be can't be wild there.

But basically, you're playing golf, you're gonna have for dinner, having a drink or two and stumbling in your room and then doing it again and then and then, as as we've all alluded to, um more good golf courses than you can shake a stick at right in the

surrounding area. I had the experience when when Harrington. When Harrington won at Carnousti, I was staying in Saint Andrews my friend Burtistowns, and one night I wanted to pay a green fee, but there was no one to pay a green fee two so I just went out in the first hole and started playing the old course. And then somehow I made a mistake and like am I and I had sort of we found my way from the old course onto the new. At that moment, Tom Doku used to who counted one summer at the old course?

He called. He just happened to call and he said, well, tell me where you are, and I described it. He said, oh, yeah, I know where you are. Yeah, you slipped over onto the new He said, you see that dune played for over that June. You'll be back back in action. And then I played and I played literally right through seventeen two. When I got to seventeen two was about ten o'clock at night, and there was a gang, you know, waiting

to finish. But you know, I played sixteen holes by myself and two hours out of outstanding, Michael, what is the best part I've ever made in my entire life? The best part that you've ever made an entire life under the eternal condition. The answer, I do know the answer. I don't know if I should share it. I'm gonna leave it to you. Two thousand and fifteen open. You know I'm not one for discretion. You know that, you

guys know that. At this point, me, Michael and our young colleague shan Zac sneaked out to play the eighteenth hole at the Old Course at midnight or so, and we just took a took a couple of clubs and I had a pretty good drive, you know, it's all feel. It was dark, got it across the road and I think only had a seven iron, had a little little knock down seven and hit it to about twenty feet pretty good. First put left myself like three feet. And

now some some dudes materialized on the back rail. They were overlooking the green. We thought they were security. So we're all nervous, we're gonna get, you know, sent to the clink. But the great ones find a way to steady their nerves even under tremendous pressure. And I somehow rattled in this breaking three foot or for par And

it turned out they weren't security guys. They were just some drugs who were watching us play golf, and that was definitely the best part of my life and treasured memory. That was fun. That was fun. You know, just to follow up on some of that that Jeff said about how the bunkers, you know, all the balls rolled into there and before you knew it had a bunker. Now I imagine that they're really worst shape on that golf course.

That probably got the bunkers there in the first But leaving those but with those two things of mind, Fred was saying the other day, you're gonna play shots out of divots there because just for the reason Jeff said, there's so many collection areas. And then I said, and then I said to Fred, the whole things you did it. And Fred's like, yeah, the whole things that did it. You know, it depends on the year, and there are years that it's green, but at best it's pale green.

I guess really, you know, as getting deeper in this conversation, it's the anti Augusta National, which is a very good golf course, but like, I don't think you can talk about Augusta National and Saint Andrew's in the same breath because it's pale. It loves pale, and you know, to that phrase of Rhes Jones is that scruffiness is a traditional golfing value. It's like such a beautiful phrase. I'm

saying it fast because they've viewed it so often. I believe it so much, But it is so hard to get people understand because every year CBS bombards us with these spectacular images of Augusta National Green, green green. But if we saw Saint Andrews in drought conditions or you know, dry summers, even though they do of watering on the of course, now you know irrigation system on the golf course.

Now pale is the really beautiful golf course color. And of course it's different in different parts of the world, depending on the diplomatic conditions. But I wish more places really had the confidence to understand that, and I appreciate that inact accordingly, I think you have to hit off the fairways first, though, Like you haven't hit an iron shot that felt good until you've hit it off a

proper links fairway, Like there is nothing like it. I mean, people talk about blades, I mean blades or make a golf shot feel better, but that is a smaller jump from a cavity to a blade than it is from a green Augusta fairway to an old course fairway. I mean, especially the first and eighteenth fairway, that might be the best grass that that's ever grown anywhere to hit a golf shot off. I mean it is. It's a feeling

unlike any other. And I think if people played on turf like that and it's not really planted, they don't put specific seeds of us out the I think they've tested that fairway a few times and there's like eight hundred different sorts of fescues and clovers and different things in there, and it's just again like the course has evolved strategically and architecturally, the turf is evolved to being perfect for golf, and it's I think if you played

off a little bit more often, people would understand that it's not really what it looks like to play golf on and how it plays and the links fairways generally, and the old course is probably the best version of it. It's the best to play golf on. It just sounds the best, it feels the best. It drains, it never gets wet. If it's brown or green, it doesn't matter.

It's just great fun to play golf on. It's well and when guys like you hit a really good shot at the old course with an iron off the fairway, I love. It's like a little puff of smoke. It's like just a little like little explosives, not a divot even, and it's like the divot sort of dissolves into the air. It is. There's something that's so pleasing about that. And then and then to that point, you guys are just making all those different grasses. Well, of course it's wind.

Wind is the element and not you know, the the American Midwest is not blessed with wind in the you know, in July and August for the most part. But the wind circulating all these different grasses and then the sea air moderating the temperatures. You do have perfect conditions. And you can't create those conditions throughout the world, but to the degree that you can borrow the philosophy of it and the idea of in the mood of it especially uh, it's neat and it would be better if more places

did it. And it does show up in weird places, and of course one of them is specific growth. You know, those those those those oceanside holes at Pacific Growth. They are right out of the same Angews playbook. The turf, the feel of it, the scruffiness of it, everything about it. And it's public ready for another old time different seven minutes. Well yeah, I mean he lived to be eighty six

years old. He outlived his wife and five children. He woke up every morning, crossed that eighteenth Green and First Fairway and jumped in that ocean every morning. That's the

way he started his day. It's like cryout therapy. And now Colt Needler and I are actually in Ireland where we've been spending the last few mornings going to the forty foot and jumping into the North Sea in the morning at like whatever temperature it is, and bobbing around with a bunch of irishmen, feeling like we're old Tom Morris as we are about to embark on the Saint Andrew's at the week in Saint Andrews, and I feel like we should be starting our day every day, you know,

walking out there and jumping in. At some point we should do it as a group, Okay, Matt can I s one other thing about Saint Andrews. Some of the best coffee I've ever had in my life is in Saint Andrews. I mean, there's really wonderfully rich. Everything sort of a little richer there. I think, like I feel more aware of things that I'm there. But but I'm think I took a photograph of this cup of coffee my last time there. I was like, man, if I could hear a cup of coffee this, this good aguar

would be so happy. Where do you where, Jeff? Where Jeff? Where have you stayed there when you've played? Where have I stayed? A few places we've the Old Course hotels are pretty nice. Place to play, stays to play, place to stay when you played the tournament. You just walk up eighteen. You can walk to work, you know, which

is pretty nice. You can actually just walk straight across seventeen and two because we warm up on the Eden and the new course right and we often use the Sanders Links Trope Guard Clubhouse for the for the set up rather than the RNA one because we're not allowed in there because we're professional golfers aren't really welcome in the RNA. UM. I think it's better now. Um So the Old Course hotels great, um but I've we've rented out, I've done a B and B. We rented the house

a little bit out of town. So the Old Course Hotel, or if you can get in one of those rooms up the eighteenth Fairway on the right hand side, they're Old Tom's Shop, one of those one the Russacks or something, one of those sort of places. They're pretty fantastic. They get booked out years in advance. But I like the Old Course Hotel. There's just something about it. You've got the jigger in right there, which is fantastic. As I said,

the top floor whiskey bars fantastic. At the restaurant, we can walk to work, which is very rare in a major we're normally in a traffic jam. Yeah, so that would be my pick. If you're going to go to town and you can, if it's in your budget, I'd stay at the Old Course Hotel. I would see for the people listening at home. There are bucket list experiences in golf, and being in Saint Andrew's for and Open as a spectator would have to be at the top of the list. It's even more fun than the Masters

and some of these other events. The Old Course is actually not a great spectating experience because a lot of the they have all these double fairways. You can't get in the middle, and so you're sometimes far away from the action, and some of the landscapes a little flat and you don't have the views. But despite that, they have all these great grand stands, which gets you up high.

But more than anything, it's just the town is on fire and everyone is talking about golf, and everyone is part of the tournament in some way, and listening to these guys talk about it just reminds me how special that week is. And if you have if you have the chance, you absolutely have to do it as a golf fan. And then of course you stay on and you keep playing your way through Scotland like that. That

was the trip of a lifetime. But you know, a lot of these opens, they there's there's a little town nearby that becomes kind of central to the experience, but there's nothing like Saint Andrew's, which is gothic and beautiful and charming, and you don't even need a car. You

can walk to everything. So just I'm still in California, I'm leaving tomorrow morning to get over there, and I'm like, all of a sudden, so incredibly excited to get to Saint Andrew's just thinking about it and talking about it. It's such a unique and special place. I'm giddy. I'm totally and completely giddy about what what's about to transpire visually and sort of socially that you know, like the town. I can't wait to immerse myself in what's about to transpire.

I think golf, you know, especially professional golf, has had these ebbs and flows of zaniness over the last couple of weeks and months, and I just think this is going to be such It's going to be a nice little opportunity to not unlike what the US Open was, to get back to what really matters and which is you know, in theory major championships, especially a major championship, the one hundred and fiftieth playing of the Open Championship at the old course, Tiger Woods. Will be there. Phil

Mickelson will be there. This band of youngsters and they'll all be there. This is you know, word at at jp McManus program that was whipping around, you know in a way that seems to make it, you know, uh makes sense, but that this will be Tiger's last Open. He's brought a big group of people over. Um, he's

not doing well physically, um spiritually. This you know, a couple of sources I talked to, don't be surprised if he's going an early morning Thursday and a late afternoon Friday, and that there could be some sort of not necessarily swilken Bridge wave, but a a a tip of the cap and a you know, I'm done with I'm done with opens um and uh. And because this would be the place where he would do that, that's amazing. Let's

say this. We're gonna be doing more fire drills, and we'll do one on one Wednesday when we're all over there, and we'll get into the players and the subplots, and we can talk about Greg Norman getting disinvited from the the honorary festivities and some of the larger storylines. But let's table that, because this has been such a fun, romantic conversation about a place that's clearly special to all

of us, that let's let's end on that. Notever, Mike, Michael and Jeff in any party thoughts just about about Saint Andrew's and the old course and the weekend. M Well, yeah, it's just a great tournament, and it's the it's the oldest, it's the original golf tournament at the original golf course. It doesn't get any better than that, I mean special.

Hopefully the weather's grit has been a little bit annoying the last I think ten and fifteen there were weather delays and for the wind and um sort of takes a bit of the show and offer. Hopefully the weather is sensible and the good players play well and we get a compelling, interesting tournament. It's some great to watch great players play well around the old course. It's probably detractive golf that you'll say if it gets played properly

in sensible conditions. So just look forward to watching it, which I was there. I'm very happy for all the people who are going to have the experience that we've all had, but especially happy for the people who watched this. Oh Ben, I can't believe I'm getting emotional things, but watching this open at Saint Andrew's for the first time, whether there in person, on TV, and to have the chance to fall in love with this game that shaped

my life, I gotta hang up. This is crazy. I cannot practically crying, but that's how I feel about it. That's it. This is a Fire Drill Podcast. We're ending it with that thought, thank you all for listening. We'll be doing him every day from Saint Andrew's. Jeff will be a part of it as much as he can. He'll be actually competing at the Reno Tahoe Open, which is awesome, so if we can shang Hi Jeff a couple of times, but Michael and Matt and I will be over there and we'll try and open a few

special guests as well. So thanks for listening. As Michael heads to the airport, you know, tears in his eyes and tells you how much this means that this guy's have been doing this for a long time. But there's just something there's something special and romantic about about the Open Championship. So the z Island Ship NUK from Michael Bamberger, Matt Chenella, Jeff Ogilvie. Thank you for listening and we'll be back. We're back at it soon. Put another log on the fire nobody hears. Give the time