Fire Drill 029: The Inner Sanctum

the jp Mcmannus pro am. Matt was let behind the velvet rope and got to experience it as a competitor, as an observer, and we'll go deep on that, the larger meaning of golf in Ireland, the ongoing live undercurrents because a lot of those guys played in Ireland. But before we get to all that good stuff, let's just do a quick shout out to our corporate sponsors who help us keep this the lights on here at the fire Pit Collective. Thank you to part points our favorite

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Points for all that they do. Let's just jump in here and I think that the average golf fan knows this is a really cool event, but maybe it doesn't know who JP is or why every great player on planet Earth decided to show up in his honor. Just tell us a little backstory on this very unique gathering. Boy, Well, JP McManus, prominent Irish businessman, uh you know, well connected, came from Limerick, Ireland, right outside the gates of the

A Dare Manner. He went on to buy the Adare Manner several years ago, has poured a lot of money into it to refurbish it, brought Tom Fasio in to redo the golf course. It will host the twenty twenty seven Ryder Cup. That was kind of a dream come true for not only Ireland in general, but also for JP himself. I once asked, JP, could you have ever imagined,

you know, owning a Dare manner. And he stopped and said, Matt, you know, as a little kid growing up a Limerick, I could have never imagined even getting inside the gates of a Dare manner. You know. He came literally from nothing. He started as a young kid, you know, running bets for a bookie and has done some book in himself. He's an incredible backgammer's famously you know, probably one of the best backgamma players in the world. He's won millions

and millions of dollars off back cam and games. He owns you know, very successful horses. The horse racing in Ireland essentially you know, goes through JP McManus and friends and partners with Dermott Desmond a lot of big business deals. Own Sandy Lane where Tiger got married. The relationship with Tiger goes back to the late nineties with Payne Stewart and Marcomera and the fishing trips that they used to

take prior to the Open Championship. JP has cultivated a lot of relationships over the years with a lot of prominent players in a lot of different ways, you know, connecting with players, you know at Dunhill links at at and t pro Ams just you know, he's he's a self made billionaire, self made billionaire who has this amazing philanthropic heart and also this incredible humility. And I think a lot of those guys are drawn to that level of humility and and when they make a commitment to them,

they keep it. I mean, there's a lot of rich dudes who love golf, but they're not going to get Tiger Woods to fly across the ocean to play in their event. I mean, I'm trying to puzzle out, like what makes this guy so wired into the golf world that every top player wanted to come and pay homage and donate their time for for his charity causes? Like what is the secret sauce there? Well, I think there's

probably goes both ways. I think there's a lot of contributions he's made to their charities over the years, or a lot of contributions to the greater good of their life, whether that is you know, allowing them to come and get have a private wedding at one of his properties. And there's a mystique about JP that a lot of people are drawn to. And you know, I said, I asked a lot of people. What is it about JP? Why?

Why are you here? Why? You know this has been a three year kind of stop start because of COVID that you know a lot of people have had their tickets, their hats which would wear their tickets for for over three years. And I think it's not only his philanthropic efforts, but the word that just kept Kemp coming up was humility. His humble nature, the way he goes about his business, and he spares nookes mase. He takes incredibly great care of not only the players, but their wives, their caddies.

He goes above and beyond he is. He showers people with out of the good stuff, to the point where you're like, I can't is this really happening. I mean it was such a fantasy land for the last five days at a dare manner, with that backdrop and that

golf course and forty thousand people and that field. It was I mean, you know, we get to be a part of a lot of special things and a lot of special you know acts says this to me is like using the horse racing analogy, this is my this is my secretariat, and in second place is way way back there kenn Offer just went insights, Matt. That was extremely well said, and being a little bit on the prophet of these guys, I would just only add to that. And this is true in all of the human condition.

There's a chemical element to life that you can't figure out. And the qualities that you're talking about, Matt, Jimmy Dunn has it, m Eddie Lowry had it, Johnny Morris, I think Johnnyrris. Yes, I don't know Johnny Morris, but I didn't know Eddie Lowry. H do you know Jimmy Dunn? And there are qualities that man named Sam Reeves lesser known, but some of us Non has it, Arnold had it.

Arnold had it in spades. And there's magic in the human condition that you He asked a early fine question, but the greatness of the answer is that there is no answer. There's just a chemical magic sometimes that makes something work. And you can have the money, but it's not enough. Mike, Mike Kaiser has it. Bill Core has it. Ben Crenshaw has it. You know Johnny Morris, by the way, the guy who started bass Pro shops out of you know,

his father's liquor store. Again very similar self made billionaire who then goes overboard with philanthropic contributions that make I think, make them stay close to where they're from, who they are, and makes them feel good about a greater impact on the world they live in. Right and right, Matt, and I would add to that, And you mentioned the name earlier. If you're totally flying solo, like a Howard Hughes, you

don't have it. And if you have a wingman like Dermot Desmond is to McManus, then you then you do have it. And of course part of Anold's great appeal was that he had wingmen. And part of almost really the loneliness of looking at Tiger's life is that he hasn't had that. It's well said, and and and Tiger was there. And Tiger took to the mic last night

in this Galli ballroom filled with two thousand people. And again, you know, JP has raised one hundred and forty million dollars for charity and that was before through this program, but that was before this year's program. So whatever the final tally is is going to be north of one hundred and forty million. And although Tiger wrote around in a cart and didn't look good and uh, and you know, quite frankly, you know, everything that we were hearing is

he's not feeling good. It's not going well. His body beyond his leg is just not working right now and may never work again in a way that allows him to be truly competitive at the level that he wishes he could be. But he said at the mic, he said, if you you know the next program you have, I'll be here. Yeah, they're everyone you have, I'll be here

and you can count on that. That's incredible. I mean, given the Tiger may only play two or three times a year for the rest of his life in a competitive scenario, to pledge that over you know, the the PGA Championship or the US Open, I mean, it's remarkable. Um, all right, so Matt, you know, you, as you said, you've done some really cool things in golf. But this was a whole different magnitude. What is it like to try and pull the putter back with tens of thousands

of people watching you? It was horrible. It was horrible. Thing was it was I striding to the first team. I mean, honestly, guys, I just said. I did a radio show in San Diego, the Ben and Woods, who you've been on. Allen and Ben Higgins asked, like, what was it like, you know, getting on that first team,

playing in front of forty thousand people. I said, it was like, you know, if we were you know, how many times have we huddled around the first tee of the Masters, right we're there, we're watching those first tea shots surrounded by all those people. It would be like the starter saying, hey, Alan, you got your clubs on, you go grab your clubs. You're gonna play the Masters today. You're gonna You're gonna be a mark. It would be like, you know, being a marker at the Masters as an

eight or nine handy. I mean it's like we, you know, we have really no business being out there. I mean we you know. My first thought is like I really don't want to hurt anybody. I mean, you know that that would be terrible. And I tried to put the tea in the ground, and my hand was shaking so badly. It took me an odd amount of time just to try to get the ball on the tea, And so many things are racing through your mind. I mean, you don't want to kill anybody. You don't want to make

a fool of yourself. You know, it really shrinks, you know, and and you know, I'm shoulder to shoulder with guys like Graham mcdall or Dustin Johnson. People are yelling for their autographs and pictures and the intensity, the energy is palpable. It was, you know, I hit just enough good shots and contributed just enough to feel like, okay, I'm you know, I eventually drank enough guinness where I kind of called my nerves because I was trying everything. It was, it was,

it's it's it's it's uh. It's fun, it's it's fantastic, but it is daunting and humiliating. Who was in your group Matt Greg McLaughlin who UH obviously worked with Tiger Woods the foundation for a long time and then UH now works for the works and manages the first you know, overseas the first tea in the World Golf Hall of Fame. UM. He ran the Champions Tour for many years and and the first day it was Graham McDowell, second day was

Dustin Johnson, and then Keith Sabarbaro. Sabarbaro, who runs Taylor Maid's Equipment, played ASU with Phil Mickelson, has a long standing relationship with Phil. Very good player, like, you know, an elite level ball striker, at at at in every aspect of his game. So we had a zero I played as a five because they took seventy percent of handbcap because it was shamble so you could use the best drive and then you all played him from there and it was a one ball out of the foursome.

So Keith greg is about I think he got eleven shots. I got five shots. Keith got zero. And then we had Graham Day one who shot one under, in DJ Day two who shot two under. That's so cool. Yeah, Keith a barbaro. You know, he's a character in my Phil Mickelson because they grew up playing together and they

were both taught by Dean Ryan Myth. And Dean told me that that Keith was so freakishly long as a as a young teenager um and that really trying to keep up with him defined Phil's approach to the game, like he's been chasing distance since he was like thirteen years old because of Keith to Barbaro, because he was he was thirty yards behind him, and so it's just a it's a funny, uh it's funny that you guys crossed paths. And I approached Keith about an interview for

the book. He's so discreet, like he's one of the most discreet guys in golf. And he said, I'd love to, but I can't, basically, And um, so it's cool that you got to see his game up close, because I've

been hearing about it for a long time. Well, Keith really yeah, sorry, Keith is really close with these players, right, He's really He's in and and and he explained to me that it's just it's just not of it in his best interest in any way, shape or form to have any kind of conversation about the players he knows or the relationships he's built or though you know, it just it just doesn't work for him. And and and uh and and that's that's his you know, that's the way

he goes about his business. And that's why he's probably had a long standing career and why he has the reputation he has. But I one little anecdote about his length, because you know, I'm not long, but I'm not sure I'm some you know, I when I when I, when I connect with one, it goes a fair you know, a good enough distance from where we play, right the teams we play, and Keith would hit it seventy or eighty yards by me and and so I was like, you marveling. I mean, he's he's got an action that

is just outrageous. And I said to him, you should be playing inside the ropes way more often than these these occasional programs. We're on the driving range the second day before um we're playing with DJ and Ross Desmond Dermott's son is hitting balls between me and Keith, and I'm you know, I'm marveling a kid. We're all watching Keith and I go, man, I can't believe al far he hits. And Rosco's yeah, I used to know him

when he actually hit it far. And I was like, wait what because he's old his mind, Yeah, he's old. He's older now, and he's and and he doesn't like he would have been a hundred and twenty yards by me. I mean that this guy is, as you say, freakishly long and a very good player. Was fun to watch him play golf. That's cool, my my, uh, we probably all have this experience with Keith, and so, like, Keith, can we talk about the technical aspect of Tigers Club's

specs and all. He said, Yeah, it's great if it's cool. If it's cool Tiger, it's great. Well, it's never cool Tiger. So the answer is now, exactly what did DJ have any insight into your golf game or your position at the top. Yeah. No, they all gave me a hard time. Um and uh, and that's part of That's part of the fun, right is that is that they kind of make fun of you. Um and my, my, I have a real I fight, you know, a fast sort of downswing. I fire early. I don't let it drop in. It's thing.

It's just it's I think about it, but I can't do it. And in that circumstance, under this kind of pressure, it really is hard to relax and let it fall in. I mean and so and I had at one and because of those green surrounds, there's you know, and if I could, I'd put it or I'd hit a little punch six iron and I'd play it like I play Pineers number two or play Links Golf Abandoned, etc. And Um.

But there's occasions where you got to go up, you got to try to hit the flop shot and on the ninth hole yesterday playing with DJ, and I got a shot and I'm trying to hit a flop shot up and over, and I'd kind of pulled my my approach shot on my second shot on a part five into the crowd. So I'm over there and the crowd is all surrounded me and they're all give me hard time. And I'm drinking again as to again try to call

my nerves. And I got to go up and over and the grass has already trampled down to the ball balls sitting. You know. It's it's a very very messy situation. And behind me as the backdrop of the adare manner, and I got to go up over this bunker and I fire this. I unleash holy hell on this downswing and I catch it thin and it went like two hundred yards. I mean, it was like fu it was. It was like yelling for was unnecessary because it was going so far out out of the realm of possibility.

And DJ like started cracking up. He's like, you had a two hundred miles per hour swing speed on that downswing, Like I have never seen anybody attack a golf ball on the institute like that. He's still talking about I guarantee. I mean it was it was so bad. And then the people all laugh and I'm like, well, there you go. That's the best Iron Hive hit all day. And the Irish lady says, you know, as I pick up my guinness, she goes, I have one thought for you. You might

want to get off the drink. And I was like, actually, that's the only chance I have. I mean, that's nightmare fuel. That holes in there. God, it was crazy. It was I'm having I'll have nightmares seriously for days to come now. So you know, you're sort of traveling on two passports because you're treated as an equal. You have access to the bars, the lounges, the driving rains of putting green, but you're still kind of an observer and a reporter

at heart. So I know you have to be discreet because a lot of these things were told you and sort of set my confidence. But what was it like to be have that intimacy with all these great players? And probably people saw on social media that picture of you and Jordan's speech, justin Thomas Ricky Fowler just hanging out having having a paint like you're you're a fan, you're a reporter, you're a competitor, like you're wearing different hats. So just what did it feel like to be in

that arena. It's all of it's it's well articulated in that that's that's what's happening at all times. You know, you walk down the hallway, you bump into somebody, You take an elevator, you know, I had you known elevator with Jay Monahan, crossing paths with Rory McElroy or Justin. You go to a bar and there they all are, you know, Jordan, Justin and Ricky with their wives, and they're they're having fun. They're in Ireland, they're doing you know,

we're all watching the hurling semifinals. And we end up at the bar and I'm you know, and and having conversation with Coucher and Lee Westwood and I are four nand our fans go way back, you know, and as its just and Keith Pelly and dinner with Jay Monahan and watching Brooks come over and talk to Jamon Ann's first time they've talked since Brooks's wedding and having casual conversation. It was this. I think there was a lot of uh,

I think I talked to JP afterwards. I said, JP, um, are you able to take a moment and be appreciated and enjoy what's just happened here, That that you brought all this to Ireland, you brought this together, you brought

this field together. This actually happened after three years of stop start And he said, oh, Matt, you know, I'm just I'm just happy there's been no incidents and that the gloves stayed on, that that the gloves never came off, Because I think there was a general sense of that, with how personal things have gotten, you know, in this situation with live and so many things have been said back and forth, that that something might happen, there might

actually be an incident in which someone would you know, confront somebody, and that didn't happen. As far as I know, I didn't. I'm not aware of that, whether that happened you know, through text message or DM or or or where at a situation where I wasn't aware of possible. But I think everybody sort of tried to kind of remember why they were there, who their host was in reference in reverence and respect for JP to just make it about the golf and the giving back and and

and it seemed to work. You know, I think Ireland is also a disarming place people feel comfortable and more at ease with who they are. I hope, you know, there's a chance there was some productive conversations you know, had amongst you know, I know Patty Harrington, Shane Lowry was congratulating certain guys for their situations. You know. Again, Paul Casey signed while we were there with Live and I walked up to him and uh, and he was, you know, Paul Casey goes, hey, hold on, I'm about

to turn forty five. I got a bad back. I don't have a lot a lot left, you know, I got five years until the Champions Tour. I try to make a living play in the game of golf. And you know, he summarized it just like that, you know, and then he hit his tea shot and he walked off, and it was like, it's really hard to argue with It's really hard to argue with um in the in their situation. I think Graham uh feels the same way,

you know. You know, these guys Ian Poulter, Lee Westwood, like these guys are are They're in that tweener phase. Of their career in which again they've woken up every day since how young they were, tried to get really good at golf and earn a paycheck so that they can keep playing the game that they love. And you know, Graham mc now said, you know, I might lose my card And is the PGA Tour going to come and say, hey, I'm sorry, Graham, but you know, let us let us

give you more money. You know, you're not playing anymore. You're not you're not you're not competitive at this level anymore. But we want to help you out. We want to give you a retirement, you know, or some form of, you know, a way to make a living. What's he going to do? Matt, what was your what was your reading on on Monahan? Just physically? How did he see him? And do you feel like he's ready for what he's

facing here? Well, I think he's really overwhelmed. I think he's he's I think he's doing what he can in his mind to try to sort this out. This is complex on so many levels, as we as we all know. I will say Michael and I and again I've got to be honest here that for me, and I've said this in a previous podcast. For me, it was so cut and dry that this was simple right, Saudi Arabia out. It can't be a part of anything, you know. I had friend lost friends in nine to eleven. It just

that that I was in New York. It's it's a non starter for me. Out. I understand sports washing, I understand I see all of that. I'm really not a fan of Greg Norman. I don't like what he represents and how he's conducted. Is I just not a Norman

guy at all? But over time I am now and having had these conversations, we basically have bumped up against sort of the confines of what is the PGA tour and the structure that they have and the control they have over you know, the marketing of their product and storytelling around their product and the language around their product, and you know. And so I've got problems with PJ Tour and you know. And so now it's like I find myself in this position of listening to both sides.

I'm doing a lot. I did a lot of listening these last few days, asking a couple of questions and did a lot of listening. And people are very open and willing to have conversations about it, and I think they know who I am, They know who we are the fire Pick collective. They know our relationships that I have with people like yourselves and Ryan and Jeff Ogilvie, etc. Mac Barnhart for that matter. And I just I see Jay, I see Keith trying to do the best he can

for his tour. I I see players trying to do the best they can for themselves and their families. I see these individual situations. You listen to them and you can't help. But uh, you know again kind of throwing the Saudi Arabia stuff out because and I think now for me, you know, here we got we we're depending on Saudi Arabia. We had a president flying over to try to, you know, work out a relationship, a new relationship with Saudi Arabia. There is I just listened to

the Golfers Journal podcast. Ms. Thomas Freeman said, the politics has no place kind of in this game. You know, there's part of me is like, you know what, and and look at look at the look at the tour players, right, look at look at the tour players have one option that to test the market. It's themselves. It's their ability to play good golf. Yes, they can do endorsement deals, and some guys make good money in endorsements deals, but it's very few, right, There's very few guys who actually

get a good living through endorsement deals. So if you're if you're a top fifty player, what are your options of trying to test the market of what your value is? You know, I saw the difference between Graham mcdowal and Dustin Johnson. Graham mcdowal is a star, Dustin Johnson is a superstar. Is Dustin Johnson making the most money he can possibly make by playing the PGA Tour? Why wouldn't there be Like if you're a soccer player, you can go from league to league, you can test your market.

In the NBA, you can go from team to team and test your market, NFL baseball, whatever, like free agency, you have a players union, you have protection, you have Like what what does a PGA what does a professional golfer have to try to test his his his place

in the marketplace? Yeah? Well, I mean that's that's what liv has done, is as created a market and it's you know, it's interesting that this this fell right after the Portland event where I I which I covered and I was in London obviously, so not many folks have been to both tournaments so far as um, and you and Phil had a handful of others. Uh and pought out some almond milk for Bob Herrick too, But um, yeah,

it's the timing. This was amazing. Um And oh, by the way, I mean I heard some things that there was a there was a plane that the Lived Tour supplied to get the guys from Portland to the JP McMahons pro am. What what did you hear about that plane ride? Matt? It was a flying nightclub quote, flying nightclub. It was like New Year's Eve. It was like a ten hour flight and after it landed, people wanted them to take off again to keep going. It was it

was there was It was an absolute party. Like the plane was so spectacular, you know, room for eighty and there was only forty on the plane. It was like a big giant private jet. And and Saudi Arabia paid for that to get those players back to to to the JP pro am, to which JP told DJ to thank them, thanks, thanks, thanks for getting those guys back there.

That was a big chunk of his field. That made a difference to the crowd, the forty thousand people that were assembled there that those last It was probably helpful to bring everyone together like this in a semi low key setting ahead of the Open because they were all going to mix on the driving range at Saint Andrew's. But this seems like it was was a good reentry into bringing the hat field on the McCoy's together. And

I mean I saw this on Twitter. What's interesting is for the guys who've gone over to live is just business and the tour loyalists, it's very personal and there's there's a there's a difference in the rhetoric and the tone. Um you know, I don't know if you saw Billy Horsell's comments, like you know, he went off like I find the whole as it's you've involved in every week,

it kind of the story changes. Now you have you know, Poulter and those other guys that have won this court in junction, they're playing in the Scottish and there's been some pushback against that, Like it's wild how this this

story develops a week by week. But I do think that when someone writes the story about all this, he might be on this podcast, Um, this mc madnus program is going to be is going to be pretty juicy because it was really it was kind of a little too soon to bring em together, but it just had to be and there was still raw and there was still flying around, you know, things flying around. I know.

I think it's just it's a it's a neat chapter in a book about all all the uh interpersonal dynamics here because it is just business, but people are taking it very personally, very obviously. That that is the one thing that I heard from both sides. One side would say I wish they wouldn't talk about us, and the other I would say, I wish they wouldn't talk about us like players going after other players in this situation.

I don't I don't think that's you know, taking some of this stuff personally seems like it doesn't make much sense to me. It seems like the leadership of these tours or what actually needs to needs to have conversation.

Whether that's going to happen or that's realistic, or if there's ever going to be a place where these these two things can actually coexist in some sense of harmony seems very unlikely and unrealistic, but that that would make more sense than the players going back and forth, you know, getting judge on each other about what they're doing and how they're doing it. I think, you know, I had

a long conversation with Pat Perez last night. I had a good conversation with Brooks Keepka and you know Brooks, you know Brooks. He said, very plainly, I'm not I'm not getting down on this back and forth. I don't care what people think or say. That's just not It just doesn't matter to me. I I've you know, I'm making decisions about me based on my body, on where I'm at with with my health and my career. He said,

you know, I came from nothing. Okay, when I when my when I signed my contract, my mom and I reflected on a time and when I was a kid ten years old and they went they endured a hurricane, and the hurricane basically I took took their roof off their house. And when the when another hurricane came to their roof still wasn't repaired and another hurricane, like the

roof still wasn't impaired. He said, I grew up in a flea infested house and if someone's going to offer me one hundred and thirty million dollars to do what I do and how I do it, to play a little less and to be able to have kind of more flexibility. He's got his majors, he's got his wins, he's proven to himself and the world that he's he's a bona fide badass at the game of golf. I'm I'm taking the money, and it's it's based on what

I need for me in my life and my career. Man. Quick, as though this is the first time that number has been out there, one hundred and thirty million, I was not aware of that. I was told one hundred and thirty million for DJ and Brooks and you know how many years they covers. No. Yeah, So when you talked to very eloquently, and we all know Graham, you know, in two different ways, you talked about this thing from Graham mcdalla's perspective, and I'm right there with you. And

I'm terrible at these courtroom drama movies. You know, first the prosecutor goes and the defense guy goes. I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. So yeah, that so I'm right there with you. Yeah, I get poor gram program, but in the real is big. But the reason this thing is emotional and the reason people are talking about it the way they are, the players and the fans and broadcasters and everybody and us and everybody in the game, is that at some point this does actually reveal your life

value system. And so it would be you could shut down gram McDowell's whole arguin by saying, Grant, you've made a fortune. Who are you kidding here? Your set for life. It doesn't matter what you do for the rest of your life, and this is the tour that made you. So there are two very different ways of saying it and of seeing this whole thing. And I think just from my own perspective, but if I'm a Grammic to all,

I'd have a totally different perspective. I try to look at the game at large and these competing tours, even for all the excellent reasons you outlined about why it makes sense and why it's, you know, an inflection point for the game, this isn't good for professional golf. I think it can be. I believe that if the PGA Tour were to take some time and I and I quite quite frankly between us. I said this to Jail, I said, you know the chase when you said between us,

fare of mind, this is a public forum. Well, this is between us and that we are sharing with the listener, who thanks for listening, by the way, because again I think you know, Jay and I were having a conversation about the state of the game. And he's in the position he's in, and I'm in the position I'm in, and we're in the position we're in, and I think we all care about the game of golf. I feel really good about the the amateur aspect and the opportunities

and access growth that's happening for the recreational golfer. So so remember we are although we're talking about golf, we're talking about a very very very small small percentage of people. And the big fundamental differences this is these are the people who get paid to play the game. We the US and the listener, and although we have benefits and don't often pay a lot to play the game, but the difference is the people who pay to play the game.

It's a big difference here. Okay, So let's remember that. Second of all, I just think that if i'm Jay Monahan, I'm focused on creating a better feeder system into what

is the PGA Tour. I'm creating more opportunities in access for people at the lower levels, creating a minor league system that looks more realistic and more sensible from a single, a double, a triple, a ball club kind of feeder system, so that people can have more opportunities in access to make a living playing professional golf, whether that's the Latin American Tour or the corn Ferry Tour or the Golden State Tour or you know, Dakota's Tour, whatever that is.

I'm looking down there and I'm trying to cultivate a place where people can still call themselves a professional golfer and make a living without having to make it to the PGA Tour, and get that those people in that system and build up to and whatever the live is is going to be what it is. What Jay Monahan has no hope of trying to outspend them or trying to compete with them in that aspect, So why do it?

Why not control what you can control. Zerich Classic, to me, is a great example of a floundering event that created a different system, a team event that has now researched the interest into that to that event. So why wouldn't you take that concept and say, Okay, we've got something, we got some we got some energy here, just like we would as in our company to say, oh we've got some we got we got some heat here, Let's do more of this. Why wouldn't you come up with

make John Dier a team event as well? Why do we do it? Come for the team series that lives within the framework of the PGA Tour schedule that then says, okay, those five weeks you partner up with your team Shipnuck and I are always playing in these events together, and you and French Bamberger are playing in the other like and there's a season long sort of sub series like why that is why I think there's a chance to make this good for golf, Michael, that there's more people

making money playing professional golf. We'll see all at the major championships. There could eventually be a live Tour champion versus a PGA Tour champion, or a Ryder Cup match instead of the Presidents Cup, in which you could take the best of that tour and the best of the like. I just I'm going to hold out hope and I am I am and sort of inspired by the idea that there can be positive change for professional golf and

thus called. One of the big rumors floating around Portland was that next year Live is going to have a women's series eight of vents for the same money, which it obviously would be monumental for the women's game, and also have mix mixed team events, like there's been discussions about a mixed team event between LPGA and the PGA Tour for a decade plus. It's the most no brainer

idea in the whole world. The fact that they can't get it done is ridiculous and it Lives sounds like Lives are just gonna do it next year, and that would be you talk about a fun, dynamic format that people would love. Um. And then so you know, as you're saying why, like why are done? Like why is it so now? They will now they're going to right, they've been talking about right. I remember like three commissioners ago on that for the LPGA they were talking about it.

So this is to your point is now there's urgency. Now there's pressure to to innovate and to get things done. And um, you know even the we can all agree that the term shotgun is kind of weird for a big time professional golf event, and it seems hogy because it's what we do for you know, you're playing in a charity event for the local hospital here or whatever.

But I've come to actually like it having now covered these two, these two live events, because everything's happening all at once, and it's bang bang bang, And you go to a regular tour event and guys are teen off all day long, and it's like, if you know, if I'm on the West Coast and I sleep in and they're playing on the East Coast, I could miss my some guys I care about, they're like almost done or the round by the time I get up and eat my Coco puffs. Like there is something pleasing about all

the players playing all at the same time. And I don't know, I'm not suggesting the PGA Tours to adopt that model, but when't I think we all pushed back. Oh, shotgun starts, that's so hokey, But now that I've actually seen an action, it's kind of fun. And even this team mask protective cool question, why why couldn't they have shotgun starts? For the first two rounds and then have traditional starts for the last round. They certainly could. I mean, I think it's just part of their part of their

brand of who they are. But on the shotgun for the final round is based on the score, so like the leaders go off of one, you know, there's there's still there, there's there's a sense of order based on scoring. Um. But yeah, I mean I think and the thing that about Live is I think they're open to tweaking and innovating and maybe they will do that. You know, there there's there's there's not much dogma over there, like they kind of roll with it and we may see some

some changes to that. But um, so yeah, it's as as you're saying, Matt, I mean, this is probably the spark that golf needed to really change some things. Now we can all agree it's probably unfortunate where the funding is coming from. But when you set that piece aside, which is not easy to do, but when you just look at it as as competition, um and leads to innovation, I think that I think that there's definitely something going

on here. And I want to come back to something Michael you said about Graham, where he's made millions of dollars and he's got enough, and and you know, look, who are we to know or judge what's enough for Graham mcdot. I don't know his you know, you know, he's at a divorce, he's got you know whatever, you know, business investors like I don't know, Like I just don't feel good about being in a position to say you've got enough, you know, like I don't, I don't know,

I don't know what I think that's a decision. Also, that's just incredibly personal whatever is going on, you know, you know, I'm I live in a family in which a lot of us are trying to help, you know, my parents, Like, I mean, it's just it's it's very complicated. It just feels a little too intrusive for me to sort of say that you have enough, you don't need anymore. You know, these are young guys, they're gonna they've got kids who are gonna go like you know, who knows

you're going? You know, I just don't. I just don't know. I I this is I Look, I'll be the first to admit and like I said earlier, you know, when it first went down and we're listening, you know, and and I think we all agreed that Nicholson had some good points. Early on, it felt that he was making him on behalf of himself he was, you know, it was the way he was doing it and who he was doing it with. We always obviously had problems with

that right out of the gate. But the more I'm spending time listening and learning and hearing both sides, I just I'm I'm I'm I'm just more empathetic or or sympathetic or I'm just kind of in the middle now, I just I'm I'm loving the fact that we're challenging status quo. I see why a guy like Pat Perez or Paul Casey or Brooks kept Goo or these guys would would do what they're doing and how they're doing

it for what they're getting paid to do it. And and I see the other side of wanting to maintain this pristine structure of the PGA tour and the legacy that comes along with it, a number of tour wins.

You know, we just got to get over the fact that eighty two and fifteen or forty six and six or you know, it's just not going to happen again, it's not it's just not likely to be where where the game goes that because of the amount of money that is being thrown around the game, like I just and the and the youth, and the amount of players that are coming up. It just it's this is the dawn of a new day. I just want to say, I totally agree with you about judging any other person's

financial life completely. But if you just look at the broad picture, let's not even make a personal to Graham mcdell or anybody else. Most of these successful to our players have made ninety nine point nine percent more, you know, than the than the average American worker could make. They'll make more in a year, far the average American sou And really we've seen it in every sport. We don't care about the size of the contracts. And I think, you know, one I know, I've written this and everyone

I think would probably agree with this. One thing it's really getting lost here is that we pay for all of this, where we the fans pay for all of this. And I feel like Jay Monahan has done a poorer job of starting with the fans interest in the game and all the things that we're talking about. And you both made very good points about the good initiatives that would come out of this. Why isn't there mixed play?

Why isn't their team play? You know, why isn't there and that all those things really should come out of Ultimately, Now, what did the players want? How do we make more money for the for the players? But where do fans actually want to see? Because that's really the starting point for well, even if we make this more about our jobs, which is to bring fun stuff to fans, it's people

who follow the collective closely. No, we've had some battles with the tour, the PGA tour as far as being able to do the thing, the kind of content we want, and whereas on live tour anything goes I mean I can. I'm out there taping shots and throwing up on Twitter, you know, these thirty second videos. Nobody cares that they're

happy you're doing it. You're promoting their product. You know that you can do literally anything you want out there as a reporter as far as filming, live tweeting, all these things that are forbidden on the PGA tour, and that have led to some of our battles with the PGA Tour and so our colleague Bryant French Money Qinfod's going to Caddy next week at the Reno Tahoe Open.

And I was having a dialogue with a PGA tour about a few different things, and I meant, today this is coming up again, and we've had some missues like well, send us an email and tell us what you want. Just make all your asks and we'll review it. And so I send this long email with a bunch of

line items, most of them overly ambitious. They said, yes, every everything but one, and like that is an example of what the Live competition is probably doing a pg tour headquarters where they're the saying, you know what, we have to be a little more open minded. We have to recognize that we have a competitor who's doing things a very different way, and maybe that's going to shift

us in a different direction. And you know, the fans are going to be the winner, because now Ryan's gonna be out there between the ropes taking videos, live tweeting, interviewing Baldwin as they go. There's all kinds of cool content that comes out of the Reno Taha Open, which is a tournament that no one really pays attention to

it's against the Open Championship at Saint Andrew's. But for the hardcore fans who have followed this journey of Ryan and Mark, they're gonna love it and they're gonna get a lot more out of it. And you know, so that's a that's a small example of how competition is changing the PGA Tour business model. And um, it's gonna be really fun for the for the fans, which is what None of this exists except for the fans. I mean, professional golf has one purpose only that is to entertain

golf fans. Otherwise everything goes away. And so, um, you know, I think that we're already seeing some some some shifting attitudes in Pontovitra beats and for the better. I'll tell you right now to play golf with Dustin Johnson and watch him hit that golf ball and do what he does. If he had someone who helped helped read those greens because they're tricky out there. At adare manner, he could have shot sixty four with ease. I mean two under was the highest, you know, the sort of highest he

could have shot yesterday. He is he is such he's so good at the game of golf. It is unbelievable, you know. And I've played in a lot of poems and I've I've played with Brooks and I've played with Phil and these guys are these guys are these guys are fun to watch and so I you know, in the forty thousand fans that were out there yesterday had the time of their lives. I mean the kids, the Irish kids, and the applause, and they were so gracious.

The crowd was so gracious. JP didn't allow drinking with the fans on the golf course. He's just not you know. He wanted to keep the atmosphere respectful and I think that had a huge impact on the general tone of the day was very warm, very cordial. There was no comments. I mean, Graham mcdowll's from northern Ireland. This was in Ireland. Uh, he's gone to live there, you know. He received, you know, very complimentary applause at every tea, at every green you know. Uh,

and you asked about how Jamonhams. You know, Graham, this is really this is definitely affecting Graham. This is he you know, you can tell this is you know, his his dream would have been to host and captain the Ryder Cup at a dare manner in Ireland in twenty twenty seven, and he expressed that and he said that would have been that would be an incredible Swan song sort of and and a feather in my cap of my career. And now I don't now, I don't know

if that's even possible. I don't know, you know, and you generally, I you know, generally, I felt bad for him. I mean, you know, he got the money, he got the deal, and I found myself feeling sorry for him. And I don't know. It's just a it's just a

weird it's a weird, constantly evolving set of emotions. And I think a lot of people have been very reactionary, most notably I think the PGA tour like it's been very it just seems all very reaction and the players reacting to each other and what's being said and text messages and you're not my friend anymore and you don't I'm not talking to you and f you and this and that and man like it's wild. There is a long history of money not making laugh. Yeah, that's well,

there you go. Alan, Do you have a sense of how many Trump courses will be on the docket uh next year on the lib seris Yeah, I mean I'm going to say more than two. I mean they've they've got They've got two out of eight. They're going to add six more venues. You know that Trump is dying to get an event at Turnberry. That would just be an ultimate middle finger to the RNA or Aberdeen or yeah, yeah, for sure, dune bag. I mean, um, but I think there,

you know, Turnberry has a mystique. We all miss seeing the open at Turnberry. The RNA has made it very clear they're not going to take it there while Trump's still breathing, and so that to me would be a no brainer. Um yeah, I mean that That's part of what's wild here is I think we can all agree that gas prices may or may not cost Joe Biden any chance of of repeating as the president. Right, Saudi

Arabia can literally decide the next election. If they started pumping like crazy and they dropped gas prices by a dollar two dollars in the US, like Joe Biden's chances of getting reelected or any Democrat goes way up if they hold a hard line that's gonna make it, that's going to affect the presidential race in a profound way.

And you know that in a few weeks a lot of the Saudi Arabian elite is going to be in bedminister at Trump's course where he's the master of ceremonies, and how many quiet little conversations are going to take place about Trump's future, about the election, about oil and like this little rinkyding golf tournament could affect the fate of the free world. And when you think about that, it makes your mind melt. But it's just true. And so that is a backdrop to all this is bigger

than Graham mcdowalll's writer cup presidency. Chances like there is there are forces at work here that are very powerful. They're going to affect all of us and directly. And to think that, you know, this little this little circuit that Greg Norman has put together could could could determine the United States presidency. This is not science fiction. I'm

not a conspiracy theorist. This is like actual fact. It's wild. Well, can someone catch me up on what did Tom Freeman say in that podcast on Golfer's Journal about politics and golf bookmarked. I don't listen to what he's saying at

I I just started listening. I literally I was. I'm about twelve minutes into it, um and when I had to jump on with you guys, and I read the summary and and Tom Friedman, you know who I've always really highly respect and actually got a chance to play Pine Valley with at one point in my life with with with Jerry Tardy and fascinating, you know, his ability

to simplify really complex situations I've always marveled at. And you know his is what I've taken so far is this general sense that politics doesn't have a place in golf,

not in our local community. When we show up and we're playing golf, we're having conversations this you know, the game should be sort of void of politics, that this should be a place where we get together and and sort of uh get we can have these relationships to cultivate this the camaraderie the game does without having to worry about who you vote for and why before the politics of the implications of of sort of the politics and having its place sort of in the general conversation

around the game. That very idealistic. That's but I mean it would be nice. I mean it's refreshing. And that's you know when he said it. When I when I first heard it, it was like, well, that's what I love about goat Hill Park in my community golf course and my municipal is that we're all getting together and it's about the round, the families, the camaraderie, the match, you know, the monthly battle, the score that did you

shoot your best score? A great shot? There's just everybody wants everybody to play, well, you know, what's the next tournament. I you know, it's really kind of refreshing that at goad Hill Park that it's not about politics, right, but um I remember everyone that's lovely and I and then the whole world agrees that the in the world will be a better place with more of that. But in years and years ago, I was playing bell Air and we were traveling around and Eddie Murton said, where are

you guys going next to? So we're going to the Valley Club. Eddie Murtons didn't know me from Adam Eddiemurtins, a long time pro at bill Air. He says, well, tell you something about that Valley Club. What I like about it is they checked their politics and their religion at the door. It was just such stunning thing for him to say because he know me and it was so personal. And of course it's a great way to

go around business. And if we gather, you know, with playing with whomever at any public course and people are civil to each other and played by the rules and enjoy each other's company, that's all great. But when the PGA made when the PGA of America made a decision to move the PGA Championship from Trump Beadminster to Tulsa, that was a political decision. Well yeah, I mean that's

the thing. And understand that a lot of people say, I don't want politics and sports, but politics and sports have been bedfellows since at least the Berlin Olympics in nineteen thirty six. I mean, this goes way back. Muhammad Ali is so revered because of his political stances. And what's the defining image of the Olympics. It's it's John Carlos and Tommy Smith and the raised gloves, I mean of any Olympics. And you know, you can go on down the list and you know, what are the most

important golf developments in our since we've been covering the game. Obviously, Tiger Woods victories is probably the top of the list, but Shoal Creek is right up there. The Augusta National membership controversy is right up there. Now Live Golf. I mean, it's just you can't hide from reality. You can't exist in a bubble. It's a it's a wonderful idea, but you know, we got the golf rolls made up of human beings, and we are all defined by these forces

and these beliefs that we hold and we carry. And um so I like what Tom Freeman is saying, but it's it's it's a little to me, um naive. I mean, it's just especially this moment that we're in right now. And um and yeah, well let's listen. We should probably all listen to the to the podcast before I don't

want to pick up phrase Tom Freeman. I mean, you know, the hook right out of the gate in the in the podcast is so, I mean, I want to hear his full sort of articulation of it, his kind of perspective before I really get too hard on Tom, you know, or make it sound like you know, he's saying something that's because again, we're all making good points as to how it all trickles in and out and into our world, and golf is our world, so it's it's gonna it's

gonna be there, whether whether we like it or not. But there are a few people on the political landscape more nuanced than Tom Freeman. But I'm pretty sure you did an excellent job for Gichi in the nineteen seventy team. I'm I'm really looking forward to the Open week again.

I think it's another place, the home of golf, the reverence, the respect, the history one hundred and fifty years, you know, and and part of me feels like another aspect of what's what's going to take place with the development of liv and the PGA tour is is amplifying the meaning

of major championships. I think the fact that the fields do come together and that this is the fields that are going to determine a major championship winner in a way makes that more interesting one million percent absolutely, And it does become these guys, these guys want to win the Open because at Saint Andrew's and that's the only

thing that really matters. But if if if it's Dustin or it's Brooks or it's one of these guys who plays on the live tour that's actually really important for that tour right now where there's a lot of talk about it, it's just it's all these guys past their prime, and um, we don't need them and they can all just go cast their checks and they're they're not relevant anymore. Like if a live guy does win There's it's the

most prestigious thing on the planet. And open at St. Andrew's that is the top of the pyramid and even more than a US Open and Pebble Beach or you know, probably even more than a Master's, like because they only come around every five or seven years. You win and open at Saint Andrew's, that that is the crowning moment of any golfer's career. And if it's one of these live guys, it does just add a whole subtext to it. So again, you can't escape this stuff no matter what.

Dj A US open at Oakmont, a Master's and it opened at Saint Andrews. Even contending for an open at Saint Andrews and doing with a certain amount of style as as Arnold did and Watson did, elevates you in the game. Yep, completely agree with you know, just a quick note about met what you were saying about the Four Majors, um like I love tennis, I don't follow it closely. I followed the four Majors. I don't even know what they do the other weeks of the year.

I don't understand the Davis Cup. I really just don't. And Jim Carter has explained it to me, and I still don't really understand it. That's about me, not you, Jim, if you're listening. But the other day I'm watching Wimbledon and it's two women I haven't heard of, and they're playing the quarterfinals. One's a young woman, one's a married mom.

And the married mom's slice slice, slice, slice, slice shots and she wins, and she's German, she speaks perfect English, and she says it is such a pleasure to play here. And I was like, Wow, that's the whole thing, and that's what that's what we're going to have four times a year from now and forever, and we're going especially gonna happen next week at the Old Course. What a players in the year. And it really doesn't mean of get Poston wins or if Louis wins or whomever wins,

they've won on the old course. Like you guys were saying just a minute ago, that's really to quote the ad what it's all about. It's not the ad, it's life, that is what it's all about. And that's why word excited right now. I love it. What I should say that where are you are? You were in Ireland, I'm

in Dublin, I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm here. I left a Dare manner this afternoon and I'm gonna play a couple more rounds Old Head Sea Point and they're kind of redoing that there and and car Golf's involved in that. So I'm going out up there with Marty. I'm going to go back to a Dare and going too a wedding on Sunday. Then Monday we're doing some shooting for the Grind, catching up with a couple of the prominent Irish players that are that are on the way up

and telling their stories, and then Tuesday off to Sandrews. Well, let's see. I think we should leave it there because we're going to tape an open preview that will be the three of us plus m Jeff Ogilvie's always such a great voice on these fire drills, and we'll drop that for Monday of Open week to really talk about the course, the history, the larger themes that don't involve live golf, and it's not something for the listeners to

look forward to. And of course the three of us will be in Saint Andrews and we'll be doing all kinds of typing, podcasting, video storytelling, tweeting and you name it. So it's gonna be it's gonna be a fun week. We set the bar really high at the US Open a brookline as far as the amount of content. But and of course Ryan French will be at the Reno Tahoe. He'll be writing every day, so it's gonna be another

big week for the fire Pit. And but this was a fun conversation and I think this is it's the first of many like this is gonna be an ongoing thing that we're gonna have to check back in as developments warrant. But any final thoughts before we go, gents, Well, my one quick fool final though would be parking. How's your job going? That's really good? I said, was Well, a big part of it is talking about golf and they're like, what a racket. Well, and by the way,

we are a breakaway league. The fire Pit Collective is representative of not necessarily feeling good in kind of mainstream media and feeling maybe there's a different way of doing things. Maybe we can do it on our own. Maybe we can have more control over who we are in the marketability of our own individual brands, and maybe we can start something and kind of innovate, uh, you know, distribution of storytelling through videos and podcasts and socials. And Matt,

let me just say this about that. There are parallels, but we are independently owned and operated. Well it's here you go, all right, James. This was fun as it always is to the listeners. Thanks for baron with us. We will be in your ear a lot in the coming week from Saint Andrews, Scotland, one of the great places on the planet. So this is Alan Schipnak. That was Michael Bamberger and Matt Janelle. This is another fire Drill podcast in the books and we'll do it again soon.

Thanks for listening. Put another log on the fire nobody hears given time. M