Fire Drill 022: Phil Faces The Music

put another log on the fire nobody hears get the time. Hello, this is Alan ship Nut back for another Fire Drill podcast. Far Away from Me for audio reasons is my frequent wing man, Michael Bammer. We've sneaked into the locker room of the Brookline Tennis Club or the country Club Tennis Club. We uh, this this place really is a country club. I mean they've got amazing facilities and Peter Jacobson's joke about it, what they couldn't come up with a name,

It's pretty good. I guess when you the first one in the whole world, at least the United States. Um, we're gonna do an instant reaction to Phills Presser. Um, we just walked in from that a few minutes ago, Michael, what do you think? Uh, you know, haddan't sand him since the PHA Championship in the flesh and just being in the same physical room as Phil reminded me that I'm really very fond of him, even as screwed up as he is, and as self absorbed as he is,

and as manipulative as he is. I like, I can't tell you particularly why, but I do I'm same. I'm mean I think Phil is he's such a fun personality despite everything. Like even you know that that little room when Christine Brennan was reading that long letter, It's like, is there a question there? Like you would think that he'd got his best behavior, he's trying to win back hearts and minds, but he couldn't. You couldn't totally hold it in. That was like the real Phil. I mean,

he's a smart Alec and he's got an edge. Um, not to make this about us, there was a very interesting moment because have you seen Phil what was the last year made eye contact with Phil prior to today? Yeah, that's a good one. Championship at the Ocean Course. What followed that, I mean there was the US Open probably yeah, I mean it certainly was last summer, and I didn't you know, some people may or may not know. I want to to the live event in London and Phil

it only really did one. He did one big meat press conference. I was still flying over. So then after his first round, I was hoping to asked him a question. It didn't work out. We never even really acknowledge each other, so this was the first time I was happy. I just asked him as off ball question, you know, what is it? What have you learn about himself in this time away? And I'm actually glad he just kind of answered.

It wasn't a great answer, but it just sort of took the air out of things and we can all like move on now. What what would be your own answer to your question? Your your your question is you know, what have you learned about yourself with all the therapy and your time away from golf. You've observed him very keenly at the live event and and then today, um,

physically he looks different and he looks the same. It's kind of hard to say, but what would be your own of course we're mind reading here, but what would be your sense of how he's different. I thought he looked good. You know, he's actually put on a little bit of weight. He was slightly emaciated, you know, like fils a double down personality, and so he wasn't an incredible eater, whould have like a quadruple cheeseburger. That's why

he was a little heavy. And then when he went to lose the weight, to me, he looked a little skinny, and I think, I think he looks good physically, looks strong, you know, I was. I was very close to him, like, he looks like he's been even lifting, and I like the scruff, you know, it's kind of a little bad boy, anti hero vibes. So I thought just physically looked good. Um, how how I would answer that question? For Phil? I think maybe he learned that golf is not as important

to him as he thought. I think it has been the biggest thing in his life since he was a little boy, and this was his first break from competitive golf, you know, probably ever. You know, he broke his legs skiing hot dogging and that kept him on on the shelf for ten weeks. But even then there was this urgency to get back and it was all looking forward and when's my leg rady? When can I hit drivers? When can I go go go? And you know, he said there might I got a chance to be still.

I thought that was like a really interesting phrase. You can imagine he's had a big, crazy life and um, you know, he he was skiing, he was backpacking, he was hanging out with his family, he was going to his nephew's literal League games in San Diego. I think he enjoyed that and it was like a reset, and um,

I think there's a sincerity they were. Part of the appeal of the live schedule is that it's manageable, you know, you can play a couple of times a month if that, you know, more like more like once a month really and sprinkling the majors and um, maybe it was his first time getting off the treadmill and he kind of appreciated that. So I think that was a takeaway for him.

And um, you know, he's an adrenaline junkie, and I think he's always thrived on the energy and even his high stakes dealings with the Saudis and the tour and his freighted phone call to me, like all of that was energy and it was there was risk and he loved that. And for him to like, now take this tack like I'm not gonna answer any conversial questions. I'm

gonna keep it all in house. Like I think he's learning to bring the temperature in the room down a little bit for himself and it probably feels good, right, right, But what we didn't handle as a lifetime member of the PGA prior to signing up with lived, couldn't he have just sort of trry pictures to her and played when he felt like it. Yeah, that's the inconsistency that no one was making him play. But I think you know, he has he has contracts. He probably had to honor those.

They haven't probably have a minimum number of tournaments, and that's all been taken away. Like, I don't think you can underrate how much it means for a guy like Phil to lose all of his corporate masters. That was a huge part of his schedule because what they were paying him, it wasn't for the logo on his on

his shirt, it was for his time. It was like four or six or eight or ten corporate days a year, and that was a huge part of his schedule, like getting all these around the tournaments and having to show it, but having to perform like you're always on in those scenarios, like you're the star, You're the reason they brought in all their v I P clients and so stripping all that of way, he's got to be a huge relief, you know though you know he missed the money, but

not very long because now he signed it lives. So it's like he's got all the money and he's got a lot less work and a lot less responsibility. That's got to be freeing. Would you would you be in a position joining forensic accounting where even give him all that he's lost and what he may have gained here,

whether he's a head or behind where he was. Yeah, I mean I was able to get some snapshots of Phil's gambling and his his financial health, but no one knows a whole complete picture except for him and probably a few nationals. So um, I don't think Phil was ever headed to the poorhouse. I mean, a guy like that can always make money. The key is can you hold onto it? And if he's really sincere about addressing his gambling addiction, which is a powerful world word he

just started using then he'll be fine. I mean, he's always gonna make money. I think in the past he was just spending it as fast he was making it, which can be stressful. He's gonna make a heck of a lot now if you can just be more responsible, he's fine. What he's used as phrase I think maybe two or more times now. Um, that he has been addressing this gambling issue for a number of years, I had a surprised me because I've always thought him as

a very active gambler. Uh. If let's think of someone who's a publicly recovering alcoholic, Tom Watson, if we suddenly started seeing Tom Watson casually drinking up at bars, would be like it would be alarming, because, well, you said to David for a New years ago that you're recovering up colic. I hope I have that little correct. I think I do. Um, but how did you how have you interpreted that that sort of on comment that I've been working on this for a wow. Yeah, I mean

I think that's probably sincere. You know, anecdotally, after Amy and their son almost died in the delivery room, you know, Phil stopped gambling for a period and he kind of made this this vow to lead a more purposeful life, and he launched his charitable foundations and all that, and I think there's been period where he has stopped gambling,

but it's always come back in his life. I'm sure in Phil's world, you know, playing a thousand dollar nassaw in a Tuesday practice around of tournament doesn't count as gambling. That's part of the competition, that's getting tournament sharp, and losing a thousand dollars is not. He's not going to feel that. But if you're betting a million dollars in the Super Bowl and then you have twenty or thirty or forty college basketball games day after day, like that

isn't gambling addiction, and that's where the money goes. So I think I think for him to play casual games and bet on them, that that might be Okay. I'm just speculating, and I think that there's always going to be an element of that in his life. But that's part of his golf preparation and part of like bringing meaning to his to all the rounds of golf he

plays in a year. You know, I don't think that would raise a red flag, but when when you're when you're cycling through dozens and dozens of meaningless you know, may baseball games like that's a real problem, right, And like Pete Rose betting on the Cincinnati Reds when he was the player manager for the Reds in the in

their early nineties. Um, we can I do not know the answer at all when Al and you might have some insight into it, do we have any Is there any hint ever from any of your sources that he bet on himself during pH a tour events. I wish I could answer this question with with what I know, but it was told to me off the record, so

I have to like honor that interesting. Yeah, I think that you know, I think Phils being sincere in addressing his his problem, but I think he may also trying to get out in front of some other revelations that may come. And one knows that Billy Walters is writing this tell all book, and Billy knows a lot more about phils a gambling life and even els on the planet, and so that there may be an element of of uh, Phil's trying to just control the story a little bit.

And you acknowledge you have a problem that was out of control, you take ownership for it. He talks a lot about the therapy and it's a lifetime commitment, and so that that may be a hedge against you know, any any revelations that are coming. That's potentially a very hairy area for fill to say in the least, but also in the context of just human human nature, of being human nature. You know Jay Monahan when he's talking about a tiger, you know, after running his car off

the road. You know, we're a family, we're you know, we're together, We're together. It was not true. It was never true. It's not you know, if you can play your way off the tour, there's a lot of ways to to lose your steps tour status. But now he has asked for a tour suspension and he has one, which means he is the enemy of the PGA tour. He is clearly the enemy of the PHA tour. Right now, I'm going or what Chimanahan says, so just human emotion

being a human emotion. If you add to that, oh, now we're gonna dig out, We're gonna dig up all the stuff that we buried for a number of years because it was convenient. That could be a very difficult situation. And I want to emphasize again, we're reading between a lot of lines here. Yeah, there's a different reported fact and we're trying to infer where things could go, and that's what going here. Yeah, no, that that's an interesting component.

And like even in my book, there's that story of game records in the tower and Phil comes to his holes and they kind of make eye contact and McCord flashes like a couple of fingers and those become the odds. It feels gonna make this fifteen or twenty ft or and based on if you know, if he makes it or not, mccorded wad up these twe dollar bills and throw them out of the tower to bones. And I

think that's a really cute story. Um, but I did have people say to me it was that like a Pete Rose moment, you know, feels betting on the competitions, Like twenty bucks on Gary McCord. I don't think is

a big deal. But at the same time, the purse that week was what five millions, six million, seven million, a million, like all needed that juice, that energy, and um, right, so it is revealing, right, Um, So how would you greet his performance in the press conference today, Well, it was outstanding in terms of him doing what he wanted to do, which was not make his situation worse impossible to make it better. And uh, the questions were there was a lot of anger in the questions. I felt,

you know, you're heard in Christian Brennan's voice. I don't know who the fellow was from. It sounded like a British accent. Uh, maybe Scottish accent um. Uh. There just seemed to be an animosity. Uh. And a lot of it maybe is rooted in the source of the money that that well that that phil I would say all that. I mean, if this money was coming from you know, an Australian oil company. Do you even have oil in Australia? The point is, I don't think anybody would really care. Well,

you know this man like carry Packer. Yeah, I was thinking to carry Packer because he loves golf like whatever. You know, if this was if this was coming from the Bank of Ireland like like whatever, it would be a totally different conversation. So but yeah, the Saudi thing, I mean it was brought up in this thing in the press conference. I mean two of the planes at eleven left from Boston, Like that is part of the

collective memory of this city. Yeah, and here we are in Boston, and um yea all that said, and I

think they're totally fair questions. Um I did have this feeling of empathy for Phil up there, like this is a guy who, um, you know, when he's hitting flop shots in his backyard and he's ten years old, just trying to be the best golfer he can be, Like he never could have imagined that all the love and adoration would curdle and he'd be up there on this firing squad of taking these hard questions and probably in real time thinking, man, that I do the right thing

and Phil, Phil chose this path. I'm not absolving of responsibility, but I just I couldn't help but have that feeling for him. And also it was just it was a tough room. Like I don't know people at home know this or could tell, but the US did not build like a formal interview room for this this tournament, partly because it's a small footprint. It's also a cost saving thing, and so we're all crowd of this hot high. It

was a little element of anarchy in there. People shouting, and also the session was over and Paul, a singer who was probably Phil's captured at one point as ryder cup what do it was? Phil? Would Philip been on that too? YEA asking a question and it's a damn good question. What would your advice be? To j Monahan? And Phil blew that off from Paul, his fellow PGA champion.

I know, well, I mean in fairness to feel he was staying on script, like and he you know, a lot of Phil's problems the years have been started with his mouth. He's talked out of school a lot, and he's taken a lot of private beefs public and even goes back to when we were talking from my book, like, you know, a lot of this stuff is because he has been said many times he asked me the smartest guy in the room. And he's an oversharer and over explainer,

and he loves the sound of his own voice. And he showed a lot of discipline in this press conference, because I feel like there was a few times he was ready to let it go, but he kept using the word respect. I respect their feelings, I respect your question, I respect the different point of views, you know, and He was just trying to hammer that theme, like we may all disagree, but let's respect each other. Now. Of course he wants it to flow both ways, and he's

not really feeling much respect. But I think it was that choice of words was interesting. And you know, it must be laughing watching this at home, Tiger. It's like he finally figured out my playbook. Say nothing. You can say nothing. You're gonna be up there for eighteen minutes. So the question is how many words can you use on the benign questions to get you closer and closer to eighteen and then be done and not say anything I know, any value whatsoever. And he did that today.

And the funny thing is in fraternity reports have asked, you know, two questions in one because it's hard to get the mic back, so we do that all the time. I have two questions for you feel on the fourteenth holes out of seven iron? And and then what would this victory mean to you? Like that happens constantly every press conference. But you know, Phil is like acting like this is information, this is too much. I can't handle it.

But again, that was just a way of sort of controlling the message, controlling the tempo, and under some hard questioning. I don't think he took a wrong step. I think he controlled himself. I think he controlled the room pretty well. What was it like for you, just on the most emotional level. I mean, you've spent so much time thinking about Phil, You've wanted to have a sit down and interview with him for your book. You never really got that. You didn't get that, but then you did get this

very odd call, which used very effectively. Uh, you've become a big thing in this whole story, and now there you are, twelve ft from the guy that's been in your thoughts for so long and you're actually having an exchange. What was that actually like for you? Well, it was just a relief. I mean I was never going to ask him some sort of gotcha question like I was. It was asn't said sire question, and he was talked about all this work he's done. I'm curious what he's

learned about himself. He kind of gave a boiler plate answer, and I was nervous at all asking it. Not when I was asking it, but there was some some tension in the build up. I was like, because you know, I talked to the U. S. G. A guy. I said, you're gonna give me the mic? He's like, oh, you want to ask you a question? Yeah, Like that's a question.

He's like, Okay, we'll see how it goes. Like you know, before Phil came on the stage, if you don't know, if you saw that, he pulled a couple of U. S G people behind and he was he was there having a little pow wow. So who knows what was said. I mean credit to the U. S G. A. They didn't try and censor anybody. It's not their job. But yeah, I'm just relieved. I got we got to make eye contact. I got to ask a pretty simple question. He answered it. I mean, he could have been a dick. He could

have ignored it. He could have called me out, and that's fine, it's his prerogative. But I think it just takes some of the air out of the whole situation. You know, I think you know the reason I feel something for Phil here is that his greed is out of control. He won the PJA Championship in age fifty, He could go on the senior Tour and pretty much

when any time he wanted. He probably or possibly could have become the first player to win the US Senior Open, they're Senior British Open, the PGA and in one year I don't think anyone's ever done in readers or listeners if I'm wrong. Um, he could. He was in such great shape for a last act. The CBS thing was waiting for him. He would have been great at it. His kids are, you know, in college and getting out of college, and for any normal person it's more than

you could possibly want. And it wasn't enough for him, and he turned his life upside down because of it. And it's sad, really, it's easy to criticize him, but it's just actually apathetic. It is it's like pure Shakespeare that his greatest achievement never been more beloved and it's all gone now. And um, but the money. No one gets in bed the saudis without the money. But there was also this element of Phil wants to be this maverick, he wants to be this agent of change, and he

he wanted to reshape the sport in his image. It wasn't it wasn't just greed. It was also ego. It was also righteousness. It was also like a little vengeance with the PG tour who through you know, he's talked about he's had all these battles of him, he hasn't won very many of them, And so there was more at play than just the money. But certainly the money

is the biggest reason. But but all those things I decided are not necessarily healthy positive attributes, right, Like it's to what you're saying, like there's there's an element of phil that and maybe he's working on this, like there's been some some some stuff in him that's untidy and at least to messiness. Well, how about being old? You know, having you know, anyone's married a long time. There were lots of ups and downs in marriage, but you know

that Margers stayed together, they raised children together. He's traveling, he's home life is challenging. And uh, and you actually think that money more money. You're a multi multi millionaire, You've got a jet, you've got private homes, you skew whenever you want. And to think that more money is actually going to change your life. I don't know how someone could be in their early fifties and be that unaware of themselves because it's not going to I mean,

I think anyone would tell you that. I don't know, just looking at my own life. I don't think it's going to make them happier. Let's say it's impossible. I know one of the things that are meaningful in life, it's mostly friendships, relationships the people around you. And I think of like, you know, Pebble Beach is my home

tournament feels obviously one there five times. That's a place that's very special to and everyone knows his grandfather was a caddy like Phil, that whole week, there's dinner parties every night he goes to. He has a lot of

friends in the community. He goes on Place Cyprus on Wednesday, he's got this fancy dinner with you nance and his pals and like, I've seen me out there, and she's got all her friends, and they have their favorite restaurants in Carmel, and they've got their favorite shops they buy their kids clothes, like like that week is part of

their life. It has been for a quarter century. And he's beloved there, and he's got this whole network of people that might be the only time he sees them, might not, but it's like a big deal to go there.

They love It's an easy flight from San Diego. All these things I like to give all that up, Like you may never see those people again in that context, and you know you may never be able to use you to use his grandfather's special little coin that week, the pebble beats that his grandfather earned, you know, almost a hundred years ago for cattying at pebble beats. Like there's just something is lost there and that you're not gonna find in Jetta Saudi Arabia playing at this live

event with no fans, you don't know anybody. You can't leave the hotel anyway becausere's nothing to do, Like it's that to me is a sad part of the story. Well, these guys have given up. Now it's their choice. I'm not it's the world's tiniest violin, but there is there is a community that they're leaving behind and and and

to dovetailing that. Um, if this leads to the minds of the pH A Tour, if all of a sudden, all these young players who were hearing about are considering it, if they actually do go, if the next generation of great college players doesn't even isn't even interest in the pj A Tour goes straight to this liver tour, and the PGA Tour becomes a second rate tour or doesn't exist at all. He will be the poster child for the death of the PGA tour. And that's a really

lousy legacy. Am I missing something there? Is I think I'd secate? No, I know, I mean I hadn't thought about in those terms. Yeah, because we're here, We're here at the US Open and talking to people and it's like, oh, Colin Mark, how is gonna jump centershof He's gonna jump of someone's gonna jump like you know, up till now, it's been mostly it was like these old timers playing out the string and looking for one last pay day. And that's how it was spun. Like, okay, just they

can have him. Bryson changes that. I mean, he's had the injury and he's got his own little issues, but he's will hasn't even reached his prime. He's a young guy. And so now if you start getting the young talent, if you've already get a more at Cow, it has an unlimited future. Um. You know that is that is a that is a brutal blow to the PGA tour. So um, we'll see what really happens but you're right. I mean, feels always going to be the guy who

pushed this to the forefront, fairly or not. He's just always going to be the one who this. It's around his millstone. So I think I think, you know, Phil talked about he wants to play both, like he's you can read between the lines. He's hoping there's a compromise and a resolution. I've been saying this, you know, since last week. To me, the tour has already lost. How quickly they acknowledge that and they realize that and they strike a deal? Like you know, Monahan has been so prideful,

like he wears it as a badge of honor. Like I haven't even talked to them, I won't even take a meeting with them. To me, that's crappy leadership. Like you have whatever your personal distaste, and he's made it so personal. Oh you know, you don't have to apologize for playing the PGA tour. Well like that that morality and that question has already been answered by the players. They don't care. So Jay is already fighting a losing battle there Now. It's just about economics, It's about reality,

and the reality is Saudi's have unmatchable money. So what are you, as the commission the PGA Tour going to you to save your circuit? And right now he's not doing much Like it's time to engage with the Saudia's freaking Joe Biden's going over there to talk to him because it's pragmatic. Now, Um, you know, you can say that American president needs Saudi oil to keep the country running, and that's a little more important. You don't really need golf.

But the fact is, like it's almost like Monahan is punted and he's put it all in the players. But the players are starting to vote with their feet in their pocketbook and um, you know, but you're right. If if the PGA Tour is completely diminished, Um, this that's part of Phil's legacy. It'll go right back to his November and called you. He said, you know, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity to bring transformational change

to the PGA Tour. When he said that, I don't think he meant the transformational change would be the death of the PJ Tour. But it may prove to be or totally weakened different p tour. Yeah, No, it's it's it's wild how this is all played out. And um, I think for Phil just to be here is a big deal. I mean, he's got to survive this week. It doesn't matter how he plays, but the crowd, you know, the term mass holes is a real thing. Like how

they're going to treat him. He said one of the greatest days he's ever had in golf was was the Ryder Cup. Here. Um, if he can if he can get through this week, then he can sort of his new reality will be baked in. But it's gonna be wild to see the reception and how he deals with any heckling. What if if he's gonna keep talking reporters after his round like this is this is a big week for him. You know, he's trying in hearts and minds.

I think he did a pretty good job in the press conference, but this is this is really the first test. What do What does the casual golf fan think about Phil Nicholson, about all this live stuff like we were a little bit of echo chamber and golf Twitter is not real life, Like real life is outside on the outside, on the other side of the ropes, and how they respond to Phil is it gonna be really interesting? If are if you're one forty nine for two rounds, do

you want the under or the over? That's a good number. I wanted the under, but I think it will be the over. I mean, I will say, like the green's over. At the Centurion Club, they had a lot of movement and Phil was a struggle with his speed the whole time. And but these greens are gonna be faster and more treacherous. And he called it one of his worst putting weeks ever. So um, his iron play was really good and a

couple of rounds he drove it pretty well. So if you can dial in the putting, then you know, all you have to do is shoot one or two over on Thursday. He's in this tournament, but I think can shoot eight because of all the build up in the emotion and everything else. And when you say in the tournament, you mean in play seventy two holes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just like Tiger Augusta. Yeah, that would be a tremendous accomplishment.

It would be. But the thing is, like these are the smallest championship greens in the world, along with pebble beats, and everyone is going to miss greens if you hit ten or eleven greens and regulation that's probably average. So now it becomes a chipping contest, and you know Phil still got his weds, so it doesn't put well if it doesn't put note, but this is I'm just saying like, this is a setup. This is not Aaron Hills where you know, huge fairways, huge greens, and it demands a

different skill set. You know this, This is really going to be a lot of short game magic out there. So I'm not predicting he's gonna win, but if you can survive the first round, maybe I'll make it interesting. Tell me how I'm looking at those correctly or incorrectly. I we're MBS is an amazingly divisive figure on the world stage. Yeah, appropriately so Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia.

Just so what we're all clear? Uh? Donald Trump, even among our listeners, has such enormous fan base and following and almost equally enormous, if not as big, people would think the single greatest lecture American democracy in our lifetimes among Americans. Do you think it was a struggle at all for Phil Nicholson to be aligned with Trump? Because two of these live events are going to be played

on drump golf courses. Yeah, I mean, that was a very insightful question that somebody asked in the press conference of Phil and he, you know, he said, I care more about the quality of the test and the fan experience, which on some level is true. Like when these guys go to a tournament, all they care about is making birdie, the history, the architectural bona fide, that's a second secondary

concern for all tour pros. They rate the course based on how well they played and how many birdies they made, right Like, So I think on some level that's an honest answer, But it was also as with many of the questions, Phil kind of answered, but he kind didn't. Um. You know, I know that he's voted for Obama at least once, and he's very you know Phil and Amy

or pretty liberal on social issues. So it's like, I'm sure it gives him a little bit of pause because by by showing up and playing on Trump's courses, you are legitimizing him, just like you are. You are doing some sports watching for the Saudias, And so I would expect that Phil has a little cognitive dissonance there, and he would probably prefer that they were played at um, you know, at some other club down the road. But I do you think the conversation goes with his kids.

Yeah you felt his kids with underger and social media. Yeah yeah, Well I mean saying he played the Masters playing times when it had all male membership, and um, you know there's he's been going over to Saudi Arabia for years now, playing in that tournament even before the live stuff started, one of the European Tour events. I mean, I think for fessional golfers are not tortured by this given Schwartzel said it last week in London, a couple

of days ago. Anyway, like you know, I've just been I never think about where the money comes from, because you can go down this rabbit hole and you know they play in China, they play and Cutter, they play in the U A E. I mean, if you want to be honest about you know, the USS foreign policy is questionable in a lot of areas. Like I think the players have just made peace with it. Like I am a professional golfer by definition. I play golf for money and wherever the money is, I gonna go play.

And you know, Rory he's become the conscious of the of the sport. You know he's he's taken that hard line, but he's played in China plenty of times, and you know they have actual concentration camps in China. So I don't know. It's um, it's a slippery slope. The Trump stuff is really interesting because that's gonna be awkward for the whole sport because you know he's gonna be there,

living large, pressing flesh behind the green. They're gonna have his excellency and whatever Titols and these big Saudi guys have. They're gonna love Robin elbows with a former president, and that's gonna be just someone that hangs over those events and um, but when you signed on the dotted line, would live. That's what you're signing up for. They knew the schedule when they committed. This is not a secret and so I guess that answers your question. He's at

piece with it. I mean, I imagine, I think, what this is such a rabbit hole, but it's not crazy. Imagine if MBS and his accolyites wanted a second Trump term, uh and won't talk to Biden, but we'll talk to Trump. I mean, basically, you could use golf and the connective tissue of golf to affect the next presidential election really very easily. Phil Mickelson could become the Secretary of Commerce

the OI OI in the next Trump administration. I mean, what would be the film might be the head of the FBI, Like who knows, Like it wouldn't be good for us, good for us, especially me, I mean the whole He is like, but you're not wrong, Like, I'm sure there'll be a big Saudi contingent that comes to those those Trump events, just like you know there's gonna

be a bunt. I'm sure Jared Kushner will go over to the live event that's in Jetta, Saudi Arabia and who knows the back channel communication And I'm not being serious that feels going to have a political role necessarily, But if maybe he's gonna, I think they already do. I think they are ponds. I think all these players are ponds in some big geopolitical thing that we are

way too unsophisticated to understand. But yeah, well, I mean colleagues elsewhere would be well, And I mean in the pro am over at the live event, Phil did play with the guy who runs the public investment fund in Saudi Arabia. You know, however, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars, who does that guy report mbys and that guy, that guy by himself, his excellency Yassa or something. He is one of those powerful people on the planet fills out.

They're playing golf with them. And so yeah, as you're saying, like, um, that it is, it's an uncomfortable moment for the sport. Like just when we thought, like, okay, we survived Shoal Creek and Augusta National has female members and like we've we've survived a lot of this stuff as a sport. Who would have ever guessed Now we've got to do Saudi Arabia and geo politics and all that. Like, it's really not a great development. Do you feel like it's

razors or lowers the profile of the four major championships? Oh, it raises them because they have always been the most meaningful tournaments. Now, especially so you've got if half of the world's best players are playing fifty four whole shotgun exhibitions, the only tournaments that matter and the only measuring sticker who's really the best player is going to be the majors.

So I don't think there's any questions about that, because what used to be really strong tournaments are gonna be diminished, right Like if these guys can't play in the World Golf Championships, if they can't play the l A Open, they can't play Memorial like those were always good fields. Like so now there maybe four times a year when you get the best players together, only the majors. And that's why it's being foul for Field to be here.

And he's gonna play the Open at St. Andrews like it keeps him in the mix on on the biggest stages even as all this other stuff is churning, Like, um, he still has the biggest stages and he's Tigers not here, Phil will have the biggest galleries. Like you know, Colin more Cowa is a better golfer than Phil Nicholson right now. So was John ROMs or a bunch of people. But they don't inspire any emotion Phil does. I mean, I

guarantee you feel how the biggest crowds out there. When when you were writing your film book, did you do any sort of deep study of kept goes round on Sunday at the PHA championship. Yeah, because I didn't. You know, I remember, of course Phil holding out that bunker shot, you know, and then signing for the kid. That was a big turning point. But I've forgottenuntil a friend of mine was reminding me the other day that some of the really loose, crazy shots that I kept your hit

on ten. I think he went with ten A part five D seventy yard and so he went forward and wind up in the gunchromate six a little later in the round. But yeah, yeah, you know they're just turning like that was Brooks kept his tournament to win, and you know, a lot changed for him and for Phil because he because he didn't, uh, and he's never really been the same since then. Well, and Kepta said that

Phil got in his head, you know, like you. One interesting part of Phil's press conference today was when he was asked the question, he would gather his thoughts and you could you could see the angel and the devil on each shoulder, but he was going through his talking points, going through his coaching. It was like he had a

swing thought for the press conference. And but as you said afterwards, Mike was like watching Phil at the ocean course where he stood on the tea and he just stared and he was just like it was just like Jason Dave meets Tiger. I never saw Phil do that before. Yeah, that was you know, yeah, but at the Ocean course, that Phil really did that, and that got in Brooks's head and it Phil was playing slow out there, and he asked for a few rulings and Keptica got totally flustered.

So and he later hailed Phil for like the gamesmanship, you know, that was the word he used. So he wasn't that mad about it, but he admitted that that Phil got to him. Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. These these four may jers. This us open. First of all, we're here at the country club. We're here in the

men's locker room of the racket facility. Uh, it's you know, it's just great to be a really traditional and now I mean, you know, maybe I'm old fashioned in this way, but I mean, you know, the ghosts we met and Paint Steward and things that have happened her over the years, you know, Paint Steward playing well on that Ryder Cup and then and you know, conceding the conceding that put you know, yeah, and uh, and Phil knows this far better than you and I ever could because at the

level he played it. But we know because we love to play golf. It's a slow, difficult sport. And they're going to try to address this thing up over there at the Whip Series. They'll never make it anything other than what it is, a slow, difficult sport. As you were saying, you know that's in turn course, never heard of my life. He said, Well, it's hard to give X. It's hard. It's hard golf course, well, almost every golf course. It's hard really when you get right down to it,

because you gotta get the ball in the hall. And so you know. I have an older friend, Sam Rahems, and one of his sayings is, you know, don't jump on bandwagons. This is the bandwagon involved. Bandwagons for for for golf, and uh, I don't know. Bandwagons usually don't don't play out. Yeah, no, it is. It is like whiplash to go, especially for me literally to go from there to here, like this place is so stately, there is so much history. This is the ultimate examination. I

think even players today revenerate the masters more. But there's something special about the United States Open the questions that it asks. You know, it's going to pursue the breaking point like this, to me is the ultimate golf tournament. I might have more fun at the British Open and the mass is more exciting, but to me, this is the greatest urn in the world. Barrows when a US Open here and that in that playoff and six over with Arnold and the other guy, I mean, that's amazing.

And then of course the Barrows was the guy that had the PGA champion was the oldest winner of the major rental until film blew it out of the water, and that whole continuum and that texture, in that fab break, in the fact you know, you and I've been around the game for a while and you know so many people. It's so rich and beautiful. I mean, it's such a big part of my life. So I don't feel angry at this live thing. I just think I thought the PGA Tour did lose its way. It is boring, It

doesn't feel like a not for profit. It feels like fat cat sitting. There are really major problems with it. But the greatness of golf is it's difficulty and the mental and physical challenges it presents. And this live series to me, kind of dumps it down. And I think Phil must know that he you know, he said at that he's sort of that stood at that press tournament press conference today, you know, and said, oh, you know, the format hasn't changed in fifty years. Well, if Chris,

it's a lot longer than that. It's way over a hundred. But the fact is that format has worked for a long long time. And the only thing we've been better than some of these two holes from Tiger's perspective or n you know, you want to kept winning more and more and more attrition, and that's what this is. And this, you know, we've had this conversation with Jeff ogilbye this and we saw it at j Championship this March to that seventy second hole and sometimes you know, like a playoff,

it's golf. It's golphins purest and we've loved it forever. And the women played the same way, and you know, the college consider typically play a little shorter tournaments for your holes, but basically the same idea. Yeah, no, I think there's a there's a purity here and this is this is like a palate cleanser, like all right, we survived the first live event, We survived fields press conference. Now we can turn the page. This podcast helps to

put an exclamation point and all that stuff. And now, like, let's focus on the US Open. This week is going to be about who wins this tournament. It is and even starting tomorrow or even tonight on Monday. But like, and by the way, I don't know what the first place money is. I mean, if I thought about, it's probably too and change. Who cares. That's really the point. Nobody cares because you're gonna have your name and a trope with Burrows and Tiger and Hogan and Nicholas. Yeah,

you know, and it Scott Simpson and Steve Jones. And that's cool too. That's that's a great name. All right. Well, I think we put a bow on the Michelson stuff. I think you and I are both ready to move on. I think you shoot sixty and on Thursday, and then we'll sit in this room and talk about that. That would be great. I look forward to that, all right, Michael, Thanks for being pleasure. Another Fire Drill podcast is in the books, the first of a bunch. This week, we

will be podcasting pretty much every day. We we'll have some special guests. Michael I will be part of most are all of them. So thank you for listening, and we will bag and we'll be back at it tomorrow on Tuesday. And that's it for now from the Men's locker Room. But when now, what about our our friends at Part Points, Part Points, Dormy Workshop and the third one is no, that's it. Those are our friends for this podcast, our part points, and they're great, they're good.

We really are appreciated. Like, okay, a a free and independent press is important. Now I'm not suggesting that. Number one comment I'm getting since starting the Power Pit Collective is I can see they've taken the shop. So yeah, it's it's fantastic. I mean, we love it. And you know, me getting like roughed up at this film that was press conference over in London has no real meanings to the world at large, but it's indicative of an attitude like you guys are a pest. You don't have a

you don't have a role. We don't value independence. And so while we make our occasional jokes about our sponsors and they accept them good naturedly, we do appreciate them because it allows us to be here to do this, and and they're the right kind of sponsors. They're like, you guys, do your thing, right. We like golf and you're going to reach golfers. So that's good for us. For you guys, do your thing. And you know it's not compliment. Anyone who's gone this deep into this podcast

probably appreciate what we have to say. So it's the freaking sponsor to help us get here. So maybe we should mention at the beginning. I know that's bad form. Well we'll make it up to we have we have like seven more of these Michaels, so don't worry. All right, that's a rap from the country Club. Thanks for listening. Put another log on the fire and we hear is get the time.