Fire Drill 018: Go Time for Phil and the Saudis

Nobody hears. Give the time? All right here we are lighting a candle or lighting a fire pit, you tell me, But at this point it feels like much more than just a candle that's being lit in terms of the disruption that is professional golf, the idea that Phil Michols. I mean, it's probably no surprised everybody on this call right now, which is Alan Schipnuk, Michael Bamberger, Ryan French, Mac Barnhardt and myself Machinella at the Fire and Pit Collective.

You know, yet another fire drill in which it's not a major championship, but it certainly is major news. And I think this this warranted a conversation and a huddle of some sort to say what exactly is about to transpire? Alan, whyn't you start well, it's been a chaotic moment for professional golf for a while now, and you know, Phil has been the center of this thing all along. The fact that he's going to break this exile in London at the first Saudi event is a monumental return to

the stage. Um. It always felt like he was gonna jump after after he set himself on fire, um and and everything that transpired his life. You know, I thought that is the best road back for him to get in the good graces of the golf fan and the golf community was was to to pledge his field to the PGA Tour and show a little contrition. But you know,

fills a double down personality. You see it on the golf course, You've see in Vegas, and he's done it again, and he's just putting all his chips in the middle of the table here with the Saudias. And if this thing succeeds and reshapes the sport, I think feels, you know, vision of himself as this maverick and this agent of change will be fulfilled. But if this is a turkey and it goes and the whole thing falls apart in a couple of years, it's it's going to be quite

a political defeat for him. So it's a wild moment um. You know, he's taking Ricky Fowler, a prominent agent in the sports world who's not mcbarnard just said, I still think Bryson is going to go that that's happening, um. And so you know there's a lot of all of a sudden, you know, there's a lot more star power aligned. For this first event, it was just Dustin and and a bunch of other guys no one really cared about. But you get filled, You get Ricky, who we all

know he's he's been into slump. But I think the casual fans still gravitakes stars, Ricky Fowler, get Bryson wo again moves the needle like few others. Like all of a sudden looks like a little more of a of a real thing. So huge newsday, and you know it, this is gonna be the story of the summer for sure.

I've heard you say this a couple of times that you thought, oh, if Phil just sort of fell on his sword and came back and apologize said the right things the PJ tour, that he'd be welcomed back, and that could be a possibility. But did you really think that he hadn't already signed enough paperwork to feel like

he couldn't uh leave the live. Well, if you make a list of the guys that you don't want to owe money to on this planet, Saudi's are near the top, right, So how much Phil got as an advance and well, that one he's already gone. I mean that's probably a

factor in all of this. H And also, you know, he's a very strident, kind of self righteous personality, and for him to kind of concede defeat and crawling back to the tour that was gonna be tough on him personally, and so um, it was always a coin flip, and I felt all along he could go either way, those compelling reasons to stay or to jump. But uh, you know that no one gets in better the Staudi except

for the money. But you know, in Phil's cases, these these secondary issues of wanting to be vindicated and validated, and he wanted to feel like maybe all the strife

was was first was not for nothing. So I'm not shocked, I'm not even that surprised, but I do think it complicates his legacy and if he wants to be righter cup captain if he wants to be an a team whole tower and next to his buddy Jim nance like, this makes that road back a lot tougher, because you know, he looks a little bit like like a mercenary, like like a morally bankrupt guy who we know his true

feelings about the Staudies. He told them to me. They're in print, and yet he's still taking their money, and even after acknowledging their atrocities at it's uh, it's gonna it's gonna be complicated. But m you know, I think I think Phil just had to go all in, so it's gonna be He's a star, he's the headliner, he's a newsmaker. I mean, this thing becomes a lot more in treating with him over there, Michael Bamber, what do you make of all this? Well, Al and I have

talked about this a lot in recent months. Um I thought, for you know, since Alan printed those comments from Phil, he absolutely was gonna go with live golf and with all credit. You know, the line followed the money, It's it's not in the book, it's in the movie. All the presidents men follow the money has never looked more appropriate or more insightful as a comment than it does.

Right here. After, after Phil lost all his endorsement deals either suspended or voluntarily from the PGA Tour, Big Expensive life, he had to do something to make money. He was out of options, and um, he had to do this. I've I've been saying all along, he'll play all the live events, He'll he'll double down with this audies. Um, he'll try to keep his name in circulate among casual

sportsman's by playing a major championships. Uh. But it's really a sad state of affairs just on Phil Mickelson on a personal level, that his private struggles were revealed in such a public way that his life has been turned upside down. And that's not a statement at all on what he told what he told Alan. That's a statement on what he acknowledged was his own recklessness and how he got himself in this position in the first place. Just to finish this one thought this is that this

is total entertainment. Seventy two whole stroke play golf where you're guaranteed nothing and there's a thirty six old cut. That's the game we all grew up on. But the

reason that it works is because it's great. Fifty four whole team event, guaranteed money, no cut is a glorified exhibition the greatness of the major championships in an I'm bar this idea from my friend Jimmy Dunn is that they are brands onto themselves and those brands and Tiger understand this, and Phil probably understands us but doesn't care or what made them great and made them rich both and um, he's turning his back on all of that.

And I find it pathetic Mac your reaction to not only what Michael's and Nolan have just said, but just the news in general. I mean, obviously we've talked about you know that Andy Ogletree, who managed you know, got an invite to play him this week's live event. UM, not the series, but just this event, which coupled he played in the Asian Tour event last week in north of London. UM. And you know he'll tell you, and I'll tell you it wasn't anything that if this is no,

he's not getting a big check. He's going to play in a golf tournament. You know, his goal is to find some more to play. And they've got the Asian Tour. UM. The Asian tours. You know, they get were ranking points and there's a lot of money in it. I mean relative to you know, he's a conditional corn Ferry member and he can't get in a can't get into you know, can't get into corn fairy Man. Just um he's got not got invited, so he didn't get invited to that. Um.

I think it. I think this is you know, you're exactly right in the sense of these guys. They are going for the money. Um. And look, I had another client that got offered that turns you know that I had to. I had to take the offer to it. I mean, I can't not. And he's like, no, no thanks, I'm I'm good. That was pretty much the end of

the text. Um. I think Phil had no I don't think Phil had anywhere to go if m if he does it, I think on the flip side, UM, you know the players that are doing it, I think what you're gonna see? I think what if I heard the same rumors about Ricky and uh Ashmbo. I think once somebody jumped, they Dustin jumped and they didn't get tortured or shot. I think a lot of guys started going I'm gonna get the money. You know. Um, I think it's just like you know Bam said, it's it's it's been,

it's been our lives the whole time. And even the tour must think something about it, because that's why they did the p I P. I mean, they they're gonna pay more money to keep them, which I think I said on an earlier podcast, I didn't think the tour has to do anything. I think the tour puts on a great product, great course is the great thing. Um.

Whether this works or not, I don't think. I think the PGA Tour creates most of these personalities and you know, along with obviously the majors, um, but you know, whether they're working or not or with these guys. But yeah, the guys just took the money. I mean they're just taking guarantee pay. Is it a glorify an exhibition? I mean, I mean kind of everything else. But that's a that's a deep thought. But one thing I want to say

is I don't think anyone's upset at Andy Ogiltreet. He's just looking for a place to play and he's been He's had the door slammed on him a few times. You know, Phil Nicholson is fully exampled in every big tournament there is for the next five years. Like he certainly had a home on the PG Tour. Now he would have had to earn back some of the endorsements and some of the money, which he certainly could have

by spreading goodwill and with good play. So there's a It's an interesting dynamic that the Saudi's have set up by inviting these young guys who who are looking for opportunity and they don't want to they don't want to starve to death playing that the corn ferry of the Tino America. Like, I don't think and Ryan can speak to this. I don't think people are mad about that. It's it's these stars who have all the exemptions and have all the money in the bank. And this is

not out of assassy, this is out of choice. And even Phil saying nowhere else to go, I don't I don't fully agree with that. Well, I think Phil, I mean I don't think Phil. I always thought that Phil was going to replace you know, well I shouldn't say replaced, but I thought he would do TV with CBS. I think he would have got some type of romo type package to come with CBS. I really did. I thought he would be running through Arnold Palmer and doing Penzel

commercials driving a tractor. That's what Phil I mean he would have thought so I thought. I don't. I think he could have made the money back, but I don't know how fast, because it might take a couple of years of redemption parades or something. I don't know, Ryan, I mean to to to Alan's point, you covered you cover this game where guys are going backwards even when they finished top ten on the Latin American Tour. You

know they they can't. They almost it's nearly impossible. Uh, the odds are so stacked against them to try to make a living playing professional golf, even though they can shoot sixty four on any given day on any given golf course, any given situation. They have the talent, they

just don't always have the opportunities. For you, what's your perspective where you're at when you look at a guy like Andy ogul Tree versus who literally can't get a start, barely gets letters back as he's saying, hey, I won the animos low am at the pastors give me you can I give a shot, And he's not even getting answers back. And you certainly, like Alan said, you don't you don't see don't see the issue or harm in him doing him. He's he's trying to make a living

playing professional golf, but fills a different issue. Yeah, I mean I said to uh, you know a few players today. Actually is no one's met at Chase Kpka, No one's met at any Oval Tree, no one's mad at Henry Duplas from you know, from South Africa. And honestly, if you think about like Richard Bland, no one's really mad at Richard Bland, the guy played forever on the European Tour, bounced back and forth from the Challenge Tour, the whatever, and now he's getting a payday like kind of no

one's mad, but especially the young guys. I mean Andy doesn't have a place to play. Chase Kepka, Yes, I know he's Brooks brother, but I know Chase on a on a personal level. He saves money all the time, flies into different airports, drives the smallest rental car, does all the things that a lot of many tour players got get. If he's getting money from Brooksi sure is hiding it. Well, so I know he gets opportunities, but he's trying to survive, so he's going over there. Whether

Brooks is part of the deal or whatever is irrelevant. Brooks. I mean, Chase is looking out for his own career, and he's looking out for his own career. If Andy or Chase play well and make a million and a half dollars, that extends his career for the X amount of years. And that that's what a lot of these guys, as I cover all the time, money ends their careers. Mac Now is it better than I do? Money ends? And they quickly forget that Andy oglod Oval trees the

USAM Champion like that. Like golf is a fast moving train and you don't take advantage of those early exemptions, they're gonna leave you behind. Talk to some friends of James Piat that this year's U S M who's going over there, and through the friends are like, hey, man, you know he's getting money. It's play on the corn Ferry Tour where you can win. If you win a corn Ferry event, you get a hundred and thirteen thousand dollars. You finished dead last at the live event, you get

a hundred and twenty plus. James is getting some upfront money, a good amount, like who wouldn't take it? Yeah, but it falls under the n I L. The money is up front. Yeah. So and and I think in Allen and I and all of us talked about it before coming on them. Taking top am s A I think is easy pickings because those guys have to go through the corn ferry and be the bigger threat than Dustin

Johnson or phil or Lee West or Alien Poulter. If they can sustain for five years and pick off the next Colin Maricala, the next uh you know whatever, Yeah, the next Scottie Shuffler, then the live is a serious, serious threat. Yeah. I mean Scottie Shuffler is Scottie Scheffler because he's won multiple times on the PGA Tour and one a major championship. Like to say, you're gonna find the next Scottie Shufler, are you we really think we're gonna in a fifty four whole shotgun event with no cut.

You really think we're gonna be uh you know any even the guy who wins, we're gonna say, oh, he's the next Scottie Scheffler. Well, but if you're superstar on the p g A tour, right, like Scottie Shuffler playing at the live event means he's not on the PGA Tour. Well, we know we miss him, no, but you know there's gonna be thirty winners and thirty six events on the PGA Tour instead of you know, Scottie Scheffler winning four

or five times. Well that's where these Saudi events could be exciting, is if you come down the stretch and you have these young guys have a chance to win because four million dollars will change their life. It's not gonna change Justin's life. I mean, he'll enjoy it and

I'm sure I'll have fun blowing it. But the for these guys, it is an astronomical amount of money and that will actually add some tension and there's you know, I think that that puts him to the test, but kind of I will say, in the whole if you go through the whole list of the people who are playing, the name that's most intriguing to me is Taylor Good because he is a guy who's very young and on the upswing and he could have a very long, profitable

career on the PGA Tour. And for him to turn his back on the tour and take this leap of faith. When you talk about if there's going to be litigation, if you have to announce membership, all these things. He's the guy that matters for because he's got ten or fifteen or twenty years in front of him. You know, Phil and Kevin Nah and those guys. They can walk away and it's not really a risk. They've already made their money, they've kind of maxed out what they could

do on the PGA tour. But a guy like Goots, like there's gonna be litigation, I would make him the defendant because he's someone who would benefit from this idea where if the whole world order changes and you can keep your tour membership and you can still play some the Saudi events. That's what a lot of the players would love, right they it's the best of both worlds. And um so, I think he's a key guy in this.

It's kind of an overlooked by the casual fan, but when you factor in the age in the world ranking, he's the most intriguing name on the whole list. I think. I mean, behind the scenes, guys, there's a lot of players that want to do this. I mean there's people silently behind the scenes they're saying they want to do it. They're they're they're a scared there. They don't want to get beat up. I mean there's but they want to

do it. They may want to do they may want to do it, but they don't know why they want to do it. They think having all that money is going to make a happy But the the the thing that made him so good at golf in the first place was the sire and Alan and I were talking to Jeff Ogilby when we're at the at the PGA Championship, was wonderful. The opportunity to show off your skills to your friends and in other words, the driving force of what really makes golf golf is not guaranteed money. It's

the opposite of guaranteed money. And fift or four whole not cut team events is not gonna cut it um. Now if they can figure out through through through uh, through the courts, basically that there's a way to play both tours, you have course, Mac they're gonna line up like crazy for the free money. But the thing that is the driving force in their life for all these guys is not money. One golf too. It's the other

way around, it's golf one money too. Yeah. But you know what's intriguing is that if you're dustiny your phil you can still play the majors, and so you still get you still those of them most important tournaments. We all know that there's still the grandest stages are still the most electricity. So in a small way, like now, the U s g is because of the timing of this, they're obviously they've just punted. They're gonna whoever's exempted the US Opens canna play the US Open, whether they sign

up to live or not. I'm sure it'll be the same thing for the Open Championship. The real litmus test will be next year's Masters, when there's another seven or eight months for all this stuff to get sorted out and or adjudicated by the courts. Like but if the Major's just decide, you know, the governing bodies that run the majors, if they decide this is not our fight. We go off the world ranking and you know, hey,

you're the Saudi event on the European Tour. We've we've acknowledged those world breaking points and that money and and we don't want to get involved in geopolitics, and golf is golf, and if you can play the Saudi Tour and you can play the major's, like why wouldn't Brooks kept to sign up for that? Because his disdain for the everyday tour events has been is well known, Like that would be a dream if you're a Brooks Kepta

or if you're a big game hunter. So I think whether the majors stay on the table will also decide how many guys keep lining up for this And I think, I mean, you guys can better answer this book. Wouldn't you think that if the U s g A and the RNA and the Masters accept these guys into the live that it says a little bit about the power that the PGA Tour is losing, because as far as I know, they've gone along with suspensions and like kind of held the same thing that the PGA Tour does.

And if they just say, yeah, these guys from the liver and I think it speaks a lot to you know, the PGA Tour is held as you guys know better than I have the immense power. And if the U s g A just says no, we're still letting these guys in. I think it speaks to that as much as anything else the PGA Tour does are at the major championships. If the majors allow live players to come over and kind of turn their back on the PGA Tour, right, I think the Masters, they'll be holding their nose all

the while. There is no First of all, you have people like Dustin Johnson, Phil Nicholson, They've got invitations for life until the age out. But then you have people like Louise tis And who could of course top four in any open and get himself, you know, in next year's Masters. There is no way on God's screen Earth Augustin Nashal is going to say you can't play because they have a list of published, list of criteria required, and they're not gonna They're not gonna buy up their

own list. They're gonna lean back to what would Bobby Jones say? But to Alan's point, your brooks kept and your bored by the pH A Tour. Anyhow, you know you can play the four major championships, I would say, and I'm borrowing this idea as well, but it's I think it's a very valid idea. If you're so far down the road that you're just chasing the money, and you know, playing these whatever kind of events on courses

that are not they're not sending to all events. They're not they're they're they're not championship courses as as we like to think of them. I think on some level, you've folded your hand to such a degree that you'll never you might be able to contend us on talent alone. I don't. I don't see those guys ever winning a major championship again. I can't imagine Dustin Johnson, whatever is going on in his head right now, we'll ever get it together just to win a major championship. And phillis

fifty one. I mean, look, I agree, I don't think the major championships are going to get in that fight.

I said, you know, one of the one of the things that behind the scenes, when not you know, talking, you know, the SALDI investment funds got four hundred billion dollars in it, and somebody, pretty smart guy to me says, you know, what are the odds that that for some of that four hundred billion is lurking in major investment and current PGA tour sponsors of course, and I think these guys are not the first people to go to

Saudi arab but to make a lot of money. There's been a lot of people, there's a lot of companies that have gone over there to make money. Um. So I think in that case, I don't think the major champion chips are going to get into where you know, where the money came from all these kind of things, right, Well, I mean to put it more bluntly, how many how many Augustin National members are making money in Saudi Arabia? Half two thirds? You know, like, yeah, that's that's not

a fight they want. I mean, um, there's on for a long time. Yeah, exactly. Again, when when you look at the European PGA Tour, it would not exist without the money from oppressive regimes. All their biggest persons come from China, from Saudi Arabia, from the United Arab Emirates. And so I don't think the professional golf wants to start weighing in on the legitimacy of the money, like

I think it just is and it's been accepted. Um. But what the fans are different fans They can vote with their their pocketbooks and uh, you know you saw that with h and again ups dropping Lee Westwood and um and Luis Tais is interesting. But I'm sure you can still send a you know, box sees candy to someone who stationed over in Saudi Arabia through ups like are they can start doing business over there? Probably not. Are they going to drop these golfers and make this

this somewhat hollow public gesture they already have. But there's many layers of irony and or hypocrisy in this whole situation. And um, it's where it gets. I think that that these gray areas are allowing people to operate and uh and and kind of come to terms with this whole situation say, well, there's there's a lot of examples of people making money over there. I'm just gonna I'm just

gonna join the chorus. So it's a very complicated, very interesting situation to the point where Greg Norman says that Jack Nicholas is a hypocrite for what he said and how he said it building a golf course in Saudi Arabia and then denouncing uh live golf and saying I turned that job down. I mean, the whole thing is the whole thing is insane. I mean I've been covering golf.

I still can't wrap my head around the idea that Phil is going and Jack didn't go, or Tiger passed on a reportedly billion you know, a billion dollar offer. I mean, guys, this is you know, and and the other thing is is and I think we can all agree that the PGA Tour has overstepped their kind of

control of what is deemed professional golf. And you've got these these other tours in which players are grinding it out and not making money, and the tour is restricting how much they can make on those tours to make

sure that they keep trying to play. You know, for the PGA Tour, the craziness that is unfolding in front of us right now and for the foreseeable future as it relates to professional golf is mind bending at at at a level that I I just every ten minutes, I'm trying to figure figure out how I feel and what I should think and and and to that point, you know, I don't want to some at all like an apology for the PGA Tour, because I think many

weeks they've got boring tournaments for boring players on boring courses. They've they've they've robbed the players of their personalities by pushing all these statistics at us and actually uh changing the very nature of the game that sort of opened up the door to this happening in the first place.

So there really is nobody you know in a white hat here, Ryan, I mean, of all the things, the p G A Tour and sort of your relationship with the tour and like I mean, deep down inside me, if this wasn't so forward facing of blood money and Saudi Arabia money, I would be cheering on live golf so hard. I'd be like, Yes, we finally got somebody to take on the the the the obnoxiousness of the p G A freaking tour, which is outrageously out of Matt. Matt.

It should be noted that Bill Michelson has a registered train mark and an n f T or whatever that

thing is called. On the word obnoxiousness, I'm sorry, without your without his express written permission, this podcast going to use that word, um mac mac right, Like I mean, you and I have had enough conversations where it's like something has got to change and part of me and Michelson and I actually exchange tweets back going back to a t and t about Michelson has since she's saying, you know, You've got a lot of the same complaints I have, and it was like, yeah, we do, but

I'm not doing it with Saudi Arabia. I mean there there's there is something to be said for the idea that part of me is kind of rooting for this to actually be an agent of change. I I'm sorry, that's the way I feel. Well, there's there's you know, on one side, there's too much golf on TV. It's every week, every week, every week, the same you know TF on Thursday. But on the flip side, you know, there's so much, so many more good players than they were twenty five years ago when they came up with

the Hogan Tour that turned into the Nike Tour. To the web dot com or buy dot com. Um, there isn't enough space underneath the tour. And this is what we talked about when they found the extra money. I was like, man, I wish they would have put that some more money in the corn ferry and built me another tournament level under the theory to get these guys playing. Going back to the baseball analogy, Yeah, so absolutely, if

they there there was just a void. I mean again the amount of people that would if you put tournaments on. I mean, for an example, we did a tournament Frederica that we helped. We did a g pro event there. It's a little mini tour event and it was the first thirty six was at ce Palms and then the top thirty and ties got to play frederic in the last day. And that thing filled up so fast at a thousand dollars or twells a person. And I mean and first prize was twelve grand and it filled up

like that. I mean, so there was a there was a need that wasn't being failed. Now it got failed from the top. But this is what I think will happen. I hope that would happen from this from the tour is that they will create more opportunities for people to play and and to survive. Well, I think it's for the casual fan. He's trying to make sense of all this. The best outcome potentially is that this this lights a fire under the PGA Tour two improve its product and

its presentation. You know, golf on TV is just emerging into the nineties. Maybe they're still there. I'm not sure. That you even reach the one century, but make make the TV presentation much more modern and cooler and more access to the players, more much better social media. Much like the tour got fat and happy because they never had competition, and now they've got a huge competitor. It has a lot more money and seems a lot more motivation. So if you're trying to make sense of this from

a fan perspective, maybe this is a good thing. It's like, um, it'll first, it'll for it'll compel the PGA Tour to improve and more dynamic formats for its events, better golf courses, and you can go on down the list of ways that the tour could be more fun and more dynamic. And um, if if the saludy schedule evolves, and you know, maybe it gives us some good tournaments in the fall that you know, it's kind of lacking on the pg Tour,

maybe that feels a void too. I mean, this could be a win for fans, um And I'm not sure if they care about the geopolitics the way we do and what it all means, but um, you know, they like they like watching golfers play golf, and if you know, this live event I don't really even understand that that the team component. I think it sounds like a turkey, But maybe it'll turn out to be cool and you

give give bonus points for trying. You know, we all, we all suffer in the TV windows when you turn on the TV on Thursday afternoon and Tiger Whoevers already finished the round and you can get to watch it. You know, the shotgun start alleviates that it was on the golf course at the same time, so it'll be different viewing experience. Um So, I don't know. It's it's this could be a win for golf fans, but it's definitely gonna it's a chaotic moment. It's gonna take a

little time to sort out. I can't I can't wait. I can't wait to watch some I can't wait to watch Phil Mickelson like get his card and he's like thirteen. You know, the horrible walk you have to make when you have a shotguns start and you're like, where's thirteen. Everybody's pointing that, like where's thirteen? Oh, that's four, that's that's Johnson just wandering around like, oh shoot, I don't know where the fifty is And you know evolve been to a scribble. We all know that there's some poor

bastard who cannot find the team. You know where six is? Yeah? The ogl tree is just like where's even? Where are seven riding around on the backs of cards? You know, making going through fairways? Yeah? Where's my car? Where do I park it? You know? Where I picket? Can I drive in it? After? Should I leave the key in it? Or do I take the key with me? Right? You

have it dead to rights? And poor Indian treat he saw even in six A. He's in six B. So he's gotta wait for the other group and then yeah, and then he's gonna be the longest walk I mean, Chase Keptco. They're gonna be like I mean, I tweeted it out, like you know, in golf. This was a moment that I realized I wasn't in good golfer. So I grew up in northern Michigan town. I was always

one A in high school. And then I went to my first big junior tournament and I grabbed the card and they're like thirteen B and I'm like, oh shit, I'm not very good. Chase Kepco is gonna be like thirteen B. You know, it'll be and Chase and they'll be like, well, you have a seven and a half mile walk out to gonna try to ogle. She's gonna try to call Mac to get directions to thirteen. But it's gonna be like he's gonna be all fucket And this guy has never used the word fuck in his life.

And he's like, Wow, get me onto the get me onto the Nike Tour. I don't care what they call it. By the way, you know, not to get all crazy here, but you are doubling down with Trump. You know, two of these events are already what two events or Trump Edminster and and Trump Miami Norman and Trump ere thing uh there. Simon Gidman is the architect of Centurion. Simon

Gidman worked with Martin Hawtrey. Martin Hawtrey built Trump Aberdeen, So there's you know, I'm sure they were around figuring out like who what courses might have an associates a private golf course, you know, outside of London. I don't I don't know if that had anything to do with it,

but I'm sure there's something along those lines. Mac. I was curious, is too when you said Andy gets no upfront money, and I thought, and I'm probably mixing the Premier Golf League with Live Golf League, but I thought the structure was always they'd pay the big money to the team captain. The team captain then how to use that money to entice or to pay out the teammates. I mean, how is do you have any sense of how these teams are going to be formed and what

it all means now why it matters? Obviously I've got an n d A through Andy stuff. But the way I understand it is they have twelve team captains and kind of like they do a pro am draw, they have a draw where they picked their team. So I'm assuming Phil will have a team and Leo have a team, and so I think they do just like a baseball draft. They just go pick and you and then you back it off and until they picked three guys. Um, honestly, I have no I had no idea about that that

could be interesting at least for a little while. Like the poor people that are left. You know, you gotta televise that that would actually be amazing. That it's too beastball or three best ball. I think it's like two best ball or three best ball for the team, so you could you could finish last but make a birdie on your last hold to you know, to move her because I don't. Again, I don't know how they do that. B back, what about dead last in the stroke play competition?

What would that pay a guy? Alright, well, that's guaranteed money, guaranteed money and guaranteed individual money. Yeah. No, No, the team the team money is only paying like a certain top team's top three or something. But they're giving it out every week. I mean there's team money every single week,

and there's there's a year long leaderboard. And the fact that we have five people on here who fall a golf pretty closely and we don't even really know how it's gonna work speaks to how nutty it is and maybe how poorly they've educated the fans. It's just kind of like just one more layer a quick brown table. How many events have spelled gonna play? How many live events?

Anybody think other than it? Now? I mean he didn't he didn't use the words like Kevin nodded, but Phil in his statement he released stay basically resigned from the PGA Tour. I mean, it was pretty clear he's done, and that's a whole other podcast, probably the legal aspect. I mean, I think it's clever for these guys to resign their tour membership because now the tour can't suspend them. Was like, hey, I'm not I'm not a member. You can't touch me and um, so you know, this is

totally off the subject. Well not totally, but I don't know if you guys saw, but Sam Harrap is the guy who sings the funny songs, and he tweeted today that the last paragraph has double spaces between the uh, the periods and the first two paragraphs have single spaces. So his surmise was that Phil added the second the last paragraph. If you go look at the statement, it's three paragraphs. The first two paragraphs only have one space, but after a period, the second the last paragraph has

two spaces. So he's surmising that Phil added the last paragraph. It's pretty interesting Sam to come up with that. I mean, that's so obvious. Alan, Can I ask you your your your your reading of the of the of Phil statement? What what did what did you pick up on that others might not about the story behind the story. Yeah, I mean the talking about the therapy you know, that's like that that's such a private thing to make public

like And I guess it's just part of this. This is the fact that fills an underground through all of this, and it doesn't appear there's gonna be any big apology tory, and there's a lot of thought, well, before he returns to Golfield, we'll go on Oprah and he'll do all these controlled things. I mean, here we are, it's Monday. He's just jetting into London, um, and he's just gonna play play golf turn like nothing ever happened with the

last four months. I think I think that's another way of him trying to get out in front of this is like there's a there's It's just like the last paragraph of his previous statement hinted at some deep stuff. I mean, I think he's, you know, he he's read my book. Now he realizes he can survive that. He's worried about what's in Billy Walter's book. He might be worried about what else is going to come out about his life away from golf. And these are just sort

of preemptive strikes. But um, you know, I I that was the most striking thing to me because I'm not a public figure like Phil, But I don't know if I'd be talking about my my therapy in in that kind of a setting. You know. It's, um, it was very personal in that regard and almost felt a little um too much. So, but I think I think Phil again is just trying to get out in front of things.

So that that that was my big takeaway. You know, there's a political rehab handbook of things to do and say, and I mean, you know, yeah, but he's yeah, you know, but that was I mean, think about like tigers return to golf, how controlled it was, you know, the five minute interviews with a couple of things and the public statement where he didn't take questions, and like there was a whole series of things to build back up to his return, and you know, his scandal was it was

more personal and more salacious. But and you know, in some ways, Phil's Phil's world has been rocked in the same fashion as Tigers and feels like I'm just gonna go play a golf tournament, not a big deal. You know, I'll put I'll put out one thing on social media, and um, I'll be really curious if they if he does any Q and A s because he's not. This is not the Golf press, this is the Fleet Street headline, you know, grabbing rapid dogs of of of the London press.

Like so, I don't know if Phil wants to step into an open mic situation in there or not, but um, it would be fascinating. And uh, you know, of course he's gonna he's gonna fly from there right in the Brooklyn said he wants to play the majors, So that means he's gonna be the U s open trying to complete this elusive career Grand Slam and all that. So like he's gonna have to face the music at some point. But how he manages his his time in London what

will be interesting? So filmmickers and steps Phil Phil Mickelson steps up to the microphone in London and you're in the room, Michael, what is the what's the back there in the back Michael Bamber or what? What? What question do you have for film? Mickles Well? Interesting question, Matt. You know, how do you see the ring? You had everything?

Why wasn't it enough? Great question? Alan, Uh yeah, Mr ship Knuck wrote three there in the what what what would you like to ask ships well, you know, yeah, I mean exactly. I would say to Phil, you know you you took these four months to reflect and to become a better man in your own words. You know, what did you learn about yourself? And how have you made these changes and how have you improved? I'm very

curious about that. Ryan, would you have a question I knew, I knew it the same fucking thing, aboyt the question about the design of Augusta After Jeff Jeff Ogilvie. I have two of the greatest fucking golf reporters of my time, and I have to follow up their fucking questions to Phil Michelson, righty, right time, man every time, like just oh hey, let's put Ryan in the in the shooting range.

We'll talk. We'll ask him about uh Augusta's changes. To Joe, Ryan, you're and Alan Shipnik about what question I'd ask film fucking Michelson because you always have Tory pines and the white scoff redo. You could revisit that old work course. Ryan's question will be like when you won that Challenge Tour event in France, how did that affect your your playing status for the following PGA Tour season, Like, alright, Ryan, I'm gonna give you a cheat. How about something related

to bones, bones versus him? Who's a better caddy? How about you got something else? Lets that would be good, That would be interesting, That would be interesting. I have nothing to ask Phil Michelson, because Michael Beberg and all should make just as I would just I would ask, I would I would ask. I wouldn't just ask about kind of what seemingly has been a dual life? Has it?

Has it? You know, has it been exhausting to live these two lives in which you you're off the course doing what you're doing and on the course doing what you're doing, and you've you took so much on your shoulders, both on and off the course. Are you looking forward to, like actually living one life? You know in theory, if he's done the work, if he's done the reflect action, or if he's getting on board with sort of being a better man, I mean, that would be my question.

That has to be just like what Tiger's life was seemingly for so long, that has to be so at least John Daily lives one life that's got to be exhausting too. But it's it's one life, and it's out in front, and it's it's telling you that Dustin Jonathan lives one life. Brooks kept your lives one life. Phil Nicholson lived two full lives simultaneously. Is he looking forward to one life? Yeah? I mean that's a really good point.

Is there some sort of relief from all of this being out and now he can just like, you know, be who he who he is. Whether he can do that is obviously another question. But well, if you know, if you saw that USA Today's story from a couple of weeks ago, and the reporter kind of tracked down Phil's mom and she said, more or less, he's the happiest I've ever seen him. And you know, I think I think this artifice has been built up around Phil, and I think it was exhausting, and I think this

set him free in a lot of ways. He doesn't have any corporate masters anymore. He doesn't have to live up to this impossible image, and he can just play golf in cash checks and try and have some fun.

And I think he feels unburdened, you know, And so I think there's something to all that mac in the big picture of you know, giving your role in the game of golf, and and and different relationships you've had with people who are close to fill or not close to fil like in the big scheme of things like is this is he kind of the very bonds of steroids in terms of like he's the guy that is going to be the face at forever, for the foreseeable future of whatever is this live golf situation? And do

you think it actually really you know, messes with his legacy? Yeah, I mean I can't answer it really. Um. I mean a few people I'll talk to you know that most people you know are mad that he messed up the status quo. You know, they're mad about you know, all the things. And then you know the part of him being actually human. I think everybody knows it. He may not want to admit it, but um does. I think it all comes down now to what happens. I mean,

it doesn't look like the lives going anywhere. The PGA tours now got a line drawn into sand. There's gonna be a lot of you know, there's gonna be a probably a lot of lawyers making a lot of money talking about what they can and can't do. Um. So I think it'll all it's what transpires in the next five years, you know, as a cordon who's who's right? Um? I mean obviously, like you guys say, public sentiment, you know, can say, well we don't want them doing this, But

what did the courts really say about these guys? And that's a really interesting thing. I mean for me, that's gonna be really because I've always been you know, I mean you guys, if you've seen the tour persons increased, like I've seen him increase with thirty you know, for thirty years when I had a guy that he didn't make a hundred grand one year and he kept his card. He was in um and now you see God make seven thousand and he loses his card. I mean he

gets wealthy. So I mean that's pretty amazing what they did, right, Um, But they did they But did they have a blind spot to what was out there? Were they play in checkers and not chess? And this is we'll all know this, I guess through the courts. And I think looking you know, our history is the victors always always write history. So it'll it'll just come down to I think it'll be revisionists.

It'll be looking back, people will forget the little things and it'll just this is what happened, That the tour was the tour right along all along? Or did the players have more rights than they were being told? And all that right there will come unwound with this, I think, Michael, well, this is so low down on the list of things that as issues have arisen from this. But I would be curious to pull you guys and all off from my opinion after you do the fact that Jack Nicholas,

now I think most people know him. A fan of Jack Nicholas, I feel like I can see Jack Nicholas in a broadway, but let's leave that aside. He represents really a direct line, certainly to Hogan and to Jones, and you know, the straight line of twentieth century twentieth century golf. The fact that Greg Norman, who was a great, great player in his own right but nothing on the along the order of Jack Nicholas, would call Jack a hypocrite is so ungentlemanly and so ungracious, and so outside

the norm of what golf is supposed to be. And I was really struck by that. But I'd like to know, you know, you're all opinion how how that strikes you, well, the same way that it struck me when Phil Mickelson got up and ripped Tom Watson at at the Ryder Cup tip. I mean, I just I think ungentlemanly is is a good way of saying But I also, I mean, I don't really have like Greg Norman. Greg Norman, to me is has been a cartoon character for so long,

and I've heard so many things about him. I I just I think what you wrote about Jack, and sort of at the end of the day, you know, he's Jack Nicholas. Did I I was a little disturbed by his relationship with Donald Trump and what he said, but I also knew he wanted the money for a hospital, children's hospital, you know, like I almost gave him like passes, feeling like, well he's of that generation. It's like I just give him. I just he's kind of like the way I see some of my uncles, you know, and

and and my dad for that matter. It's like it's just different generations. So if I'm picking between Greg Norman and Jack Nicholas, I'm picking Jack Nicholas, you know, every day, But at the end of the day, I think they're They're all kind of immersed and engulfed in this whole thing. That's that's It's just it's a lot. It's like, at the end of the day, it's still a lot of garbage in there. It's you know, everyone's blinded by the money. But don't forget this is for Norman. This is payback

that goes back three decades. Yeah, he's been sitting on this for a long time now. I mean he got he had this idea in the early nineties for this global world tour and he got out fox and humiliated by Tim Finchon, who stole his idea and created the World Golf Championships and created the President's Cup, and Norman was left as kind of this out on the outside looking in. And so I know that even though Norman's taking a lot of straff and all for him, it's

worth it. It's not just about the money. This is this is about redemped It's a redemption story for him.

And there's an element of that with Phil too. You know, they were never buddies, but they're you know, Greg and Phil are kind of these kindred spirits and the fact that they've come together at this moment to completely blow up the professional golf landscape is fascinating, and they're both complicated guys, and they have their fans and have their detractors, and there's some some energy there there that even the way they played the game was the same, you know,

aggressive to the point of reckless. Like there's just how they live their life. And so the fact that it's Greg and it it's Phil just add the whole other elements of this the story for me. But you're also you're also talking about some of the biggest egos I've ever met in my life. For sure, some of the most successful golfers I've I've ever met. Jack Nicholas is one of the biggest egomaniacal people I've ever come in contact with. Greg Norman one of the biggest giant egomaniacal

human beings. Roman Plan asked Andy mill about what he did to his friend in getting Chris Everett to be his wife. I mean, this guy is your worst nightmare. If you're friends with Greg Norman, you don't ever invite him over your house. He might steal your wife and your daughter. I mean he's a you know, I mean Bill Nicholson, eagle maniacal fig Jam Tiger, Woods, Eagle. They don't have people who say no to them, and if they do, they're out. You're out. Well, I mean it's

an interesting point. I mean, the the biggest stars of the last thirty years, Tiger, Phil, Greg Norman, and all of them. Jack Nicholas, Yeah, I mean Jack is you know, he's been a force in the game, but just as far as contemporary players, like all of them somewhat diminished by scandal and controversy, you know, not not Jack so much, although this late period, Jack's had his own issues. So um,

it's it's a fascinating turn of events. Like um, you know, the tour wants to sell these guys as perfect gentlemen, but they're they're complicated human beings and they do have egos, and they do have appetites, and it's lead them astray. So it just adds a whole other layer to this, the complexity of the situation. Humans have never changed. Those are all the same. I mean, that's a good ending point, right there, Mac. I mean that that that's that's what

this comes down to. It's human foibles. It's greed, it's desire for power, for revenge, for payback. Because there's plenty a good golf out there to play already, like, none of this is really about golf, and it's all these it's all these other you know, human flaws that have created this entire situation. But you know, we're all lawyers. Were This is a gift from the content gods or for those who write about the game. The fans are gonna be watching in some capacity and tuned into this.

It's gonna it's just gonna be the story of the summer. So it will be interesting to see if the organization's behave as though the golfers would own a golf course. In other words, will they keep you know, will they have the same you know what you know, how you treat each other on the golf course and the things that you do. Are they going to be that good? I mean, will they take the values of the game

on the course to this? I don't call it a fight to this, but this, I mean Jay Monahan threatening a lifetime band to anyone who goes and plays a golf tournament. That's hardball. I don't think. I don't think that's the gentleman. You know, he's he's he sees this as as a real essential threat to this revival of

the PGA tourn He's probably right. So they they they they told us to cease and desist at the Wishbone Brawl, a tournament with with with Persimmon Woods talk about an exhibition at goat Hill Park to raise money for kids. You think the PGA Tours they're not gonna they're not gonna play nice. They didn't play nice with the Wishbone. Bro, what do you think they're gonna do with the Live Tour. I mean, you know, these guys, the PGA Tour is not exactly you know, gentlemanly in any way shape reform,

you know. I mean I've heard from a player that, you know, he was called into an office Jay's office and threatened pretty extensively about you know, if he went there, it was going to be it was, that was going to be it. So this is not this is not friendly friendly fire here. No, all right, guys, Well, we

couldn't do this without the support of our sponsors. Uh. But I mean, you know, I appreciate this opportunity to get in a room full of smart people and have smart conversation about a very complex issue as it relates to a game that we all love. I mean, the common denominator is that we do love this game. We do love I love so many different aspects of this game.

And the professional game has been a it's been a mixed, I love hate relationship in a lot of ways the last few years, as you know, you know, embarking on this modern media company and bumping up into bumping up next to or into the rights and control of the

p G A Tour. So the idea that we're trying to go this alone without getting the sort of entanglement of some of the other legacy media as it's tied to the tour and and feeling at one point, oh, Phil Mickelson, you know, had some had some points to be made, and it kind of lost its way with how he made him and what you know what format

and and platform. It's ah, there is there is, there is something to be said for I hope that the PGA Tour loses some of its control over what's happening to its players, to its tournament, to its media partners, to its brand partners, because right now feels like they're undefeated. They can do whatever they want, how they want to do it, when they want to do it, and it

doesn't seem right. It does seem like state run media and it and it's uh, it's nice to be able to have these conversations working for the Firepit Collective and not feel like I'm going to get a call from my boss and say, what in the hell did you just do? Yeah, Mr Nicholas say you go monacle. Yeah, I mean it is. I mean, yeah, well that's what all said, Matt. I mean, everything's changing, everything's up for grabs. It's a wild time to be in the golf media.

So we're gonna we can see how this plays out. And do you all think the Golf Channel is gonna do you think the Golf Channel will cover the live of it? I think I don't think they'll probably cover it on they save Golf Central. I mean they they can't ignore it completely, as you know, as a news event, but I don't think they're gonna want to give it anymore than the bare minimum. It's gonna be one of

those things that I'm very curious to find out. I mean, this is that's what I mean, what we're about to see for the next six months is uh, this is modern media with you know, big money, endless money. Four hundred billion dollars. They could do whatever they want. What what I want to do is go get dinner, So I think we should end this podcast. I'm curerally eating crackers from a gas station, so I would also like to go get dinner. But thanks to everyone who's has

made it to this finish line. It's it's complex, and we're gonna be covering it. My plan is to fly over to London on Thursday night and cover this tournament from from the outside of the ropes if I have to. Yeah, yeah, I've been looking at flights. I would have got to go sooner, but my daughter's high school graduation part he's on Thursday afternoon. Until I can, I can catch the

last flight of San Francisco. I'll be I'll be on the ground at Centurion by end to play on Friday, and I'll blow it out on Saturday and Sunday too, So in disguise or as Alan Shimnick, maybe I'll shave my beer. No, I'll recognize me. Go as Monday Que if you're gonna take over the Monday Q Info Twitter and Michael Michael some final thoughts. Well, you know, I think I'm really taken by that hypocrite come by Norman because it shows such a lack of gratitude to the

preceding generation. And this overall thing is all about a lack of gratitude, you know, not being happy with what you have. Thatt, what you said about the modern PG tour was perfect. It was word for word perfect. I mean, it is a very arrogant organization with a lot of problems. And this is gonna this is going to reveal a lot of them. But the when and when Matt talks about human nature, I mean, I agreat human nature fundamentally

does not change. But there should be a value system in place that honors where you can, honor how you got to where you are in your life. And the lack of that is disturbing as hell to see and disappointing. And then just one final thought. You know, when we talk about you know, Norman getting his redemption and Philip Bichelson getting the redemption, their redemption if it is even that is bought and paid for by the Saudies, by billions, and the Saudis will stop at nothing to win this thing.

So when we talk about six months or five years, that's the tip of the iceberg. I mean, I think about a hundred year view here to use golf, this crazy, ridiculous Shepherd's game that nobody in the right mind wouldn't vent today because it's way too difficult in time consuming to use that to recreate the image of their society without actually changing their society. Yeah. I don't think we

said redemption. It's more like revenge, that's what That's what Norman is looking for and maybe fill at this point, but Jake said that we need to cover part part points man, so well, No, I mean, I think we got We're we're adding sponsors obviously, Ryan French, you're the host of The Grind, and we've got a great docuseries

coming out, and Alan and Michael. You're gonna be doing a podcast called Nia Fourth with Jeff Ogilvie, which we've already taped a pilot episode of and we'll be coming out this fall, which I'm really looking forward to it.

You guys are regular appear regularly on The Fire Drill obviously the Weeks and the Majors, and coming up out of Boston the US Open, the three of you, Ryan, Michael, Alan and Jeff Ogilvie will be appearing frequently throughout that week, Mac, you are gonna be with Colton El and Michael Sims hosting the Real Game Podcast, which I'm really looking forward to as you continue to give us your insights and perspective on the Real Game as it relates to a

business perspective, avoiding the pitfalls of trying to go pro. What happens when you do go pro and you get these equipment companies wanting to change the gear that you're played for your whole life. I'm really looking forward to all of that. Um, all of this is is being brought to us by a whole bunch of sponsors and supporters of what we're doing at the Firepit. Collective. Part Points is obviously one of them. It's a new revolutionary app that kind of changes the way we score the game,

especially great for families, people going out with kids. Wherever you tee off from you can actually win that amount of points. If you make par from fifty yards you get fifty points. Hundred yards you get a hundred points. If you want to go all the way back to four hundred yards and make part you'll get four hundred points. Bertie double it. It's a really cool thing and uh, I suggest you download and try it out. We also have Dynamic Brands and bag Boy who are big supporters

of Firepit Collective. I think it's the best push card out there. I use it when I use a push cart. I suggest you do too. And then Dormy Workshop is a new relationship we have. They've just uh done some incredible Firepit Collective merchandise that we're dropping uh this week and next head covers, uh, goodie bags, all kinds of stuff that they've made for us, handcrafted. These guys are based out of Canada, have known the Bishops for a long time and now they're making products for the fire

Pick Collective. Very excited to showcase all of that. So, um, those are our sponsors and partners boys. Anything to add, yeah, well, independent journalism needs to be supported. So we were appreciative for all them. And I'm just trying to side between Italian and Mexican for dinner, but I'll take that offline. So I'm glad we did this. We're gonna do it again. This is gonna be a talking point throughout US Open Week when Phil probably makes his return to the state side.

And um, this is just just gonna keep going so that's not the end of the conversation. This is really the beginning. So thanks for everyone who tuned in and and to be continued and all safe travels. Safe travels, my friend was you had to live alright here, guys put another log on the fire and we here is get the time.