Fire Drill 015: Midway at the PGA

look a little shaky. Put another log on the fire nobody hears get the time. Hello, This is Alan schip Duck back for another Fire Drill podcast. I've joined on my left by Michael Bamberger. Most importantly, we have on the line from Oz Jeff Ogilvie. Jeff, thanks for getting up early for this. Absolutely, you've been up for a few hours. Wouldn't miss it. So you've been you've been watching the you've been watching the golf. Tell me tell your impressions of the way the course is playing and

what you're seeing out there. Um yeah, firstly the course. I mean, isn't it nice to see a golf course set up so well for a golf tournament, greens that are a sensible pace. You know, it shows you that you don't need crazy fast greens to challenge the players. I mean, they're slopy enough greens. Um, they looked like a little bit of a bounce something, so it matters where you're coming from. But it's the challenge of the greens, not the challenge of the pace of the greens, I think,

which is kind of interesting. Um, And a pretty lopsided drawer, it looks like at this point, which is unfortunate for the guys who played this morning. But JT and um Fitzpatrick looks like they did the best of it, and they're obviously playing really really well. I guess it was really really tough on their side of the drawer. They had sort of twenty four hours of wind, and the other side of that the always got prettylucky the guys

who are playing this afternoon. So um, there'll be a few guys who finished this morning who feel a bit hard done by. But all in all, I think it's pretty interesting. You know, I think a gil hands slash haunts,

depending on how sophisticating might be. He did say something in the run up to this saying, you know, we prefer to compromise the green spies versus compromising architecture, which I thought was really refreshing because the modern game they just want to push it to the edge, and especially at these big tournaments, is almost like the set of guys that carriehigs A little better about that, but there's

still this pressure to get the green super fast. But you know, it does seem like a sensible pace even though the it's still pretty darn quick coming down those hills. But what do you what do you think about philosophy, Jeff just to does does it take away from the championship test if the Greens are not blindingly fast? No? Absolutely not. I mean I think just because you can get the grains to fourteen and fifteen doesn't mean you should,

you know. I mean we can make cars it go three hundred miles and out, but that doesn't make it sensible. You know. Um, it's just what if we end up with crazy fast greens, you just end up having to have the ball the holes on the flat spots. Um, you can't use the interesting pin positions. Um. I think firmness is much more interesting than just out and out blinding speed. So I think no, I think girls completely right.

I think you have much more. If you look at all the old golf courses, the great old golf courses, I mean, they're all built with greens that used to run at five six seven on the stemp and that's got such sort of wild, crazy greens. It's a shame to sort of flatten those greens just because we can make them crazy fast. I think they're interesting and great courses because the greens have undulation and interest in them, and I think there's a there's a sensible pace to

play all greens. And um, to be honest with your professionals generally get chatted sometimes when greens are slightly slower than maybe they're used to in the tournament like this, they seem to have a little bit of trouble. I always did. I always prefer the greens a bit faster. So um they obviously you say plenty fast, and there's there's plenty of slope on that a challenge the players. But I think a sensible pace for the slopes that

you've got, I think it's great. And as you say, Kerry and the PGA always do a pretty incredible job setting a golf course, subcontroversy, free and interesting and they've got a great template with southern hills and looks like have done a perfect job. Chure if when you watch golf on two be as you've been doing this morning, do you have the volume honor rough on? Um, it can be interesting. There's there's a great there's kind of sort of a large amount of announcers, so there's enough

variety there to not get me too frustrated. Um. Sometimes when you've been inside the ropes, when you listen to people talk about golf, it could be a little annoying. But no, it's been great. UM. I usually listen to it on and you get a bit of atmosphere. Obviously, when there's a group like Tiger and Jordan and that out there, that's it's nice to hear the crowd of the noise and um, the stuff and maybe some of the the mottos under the breath when they hit a

shot that I unlock. I think that's all sort of powder watching the game. Yet we we should mention it's it's late afternoon here in Tulsa. Tiger and Rory are deep into their back nine and Michael, you you're out there walking I was there for a bid I kind of sneak to wait and see some other things. But what are your impressions of the Tiger Rory Jordan group. Well, uh, Jeff, tell me your opinion. Jordan's Speed is a wonderful person. I think anybody who's met Jordan's speedple off the golf

course would love to be in his company. But to watch that practice swing, what you know, a hundred or more times around, I think it would drive you crazy after a while. But you tell me, Jeff, what what's it like for you watching Speed make that practice swing And what's it like? Not in that exact situation, but other times when we watch a guy who's got a weird move, does it get in your head or what's it like? I'm interested to say what he's trying to do.

I mean, I kind of it's I can't describe it in words. I kind of know what he's trying to feel. Um, it is probably strange for people to look at. I mean, I get frustrated, as you said. I mean, I love Jordan's He's one of the nicest guys out there. He tried, he works so hard, he just wants it so bad and he will try anything. Um, he's one of those guys. He's not quite Harrington, but he's sort of got that tendency, you know, to just sort of try whatever he has

to do to make it work. And it's it's interesting at the moment watching him do that. I think I wish he would. I don't know, he's I loved his swing when he first came out. I mean sort of people would talk about is like little sort of bent left arm, chicken wings sort of thing through the ball. But I thought he looked fantastic that first few years out on the golf course hitting the ball. So um. He's obviously searching and finding a feel and you can't

sort of argue with that. He's played great the last few weeks, He's played great all year. Really, he's sort of right at the ship, if you like. A couple of years ago he was really battling with his game and sort of kept grinding and kept grinding, and he's found something that it works. And I guess when you find something that works, you just do it. I mean, just because it doesn't look like Samson, he doesn't mean it's not the right thing for him to do. Um,

And it's it's interesting to watch. But yeah, the swing actually looks pretty much like a Jordan's speed swing. It's really that practice thing. I've noticed tigers just staring down the fairway. He's not taking it in. But I think macar is a little bit like, what's this guy doing here? I really I do. When when you watch are you now of course your golf course architect you're very interesting architecture just other nails, but also you know the players,

You know what it's like to play at this level. Um, which hat do you think you have on more at this point when you're watching mostly a player, I think in this situation, um, yeah, you just get all the sort of the fields and stuff a little bit from being out there and interested, and I look at all the things that players look like that the drawer, like I said, the lock side of draw is um frustrates me, even not even not even being in the tournament, because

it's such an annoying thing when you get on the wrong side of it. Um and a little bit envious because it looks like a fun place to play. At the moment um it's obviously getting pretty hot, but it's an incredible place to play. It looks fantastic and great shape and a little bit jealous of the guys out there, but that's right, yeah, I mean, and sometimes the architecture,

I mean, it's been very interesting. Um it looks like you can play from the trees a little bit if you if you're sort of there's not some crazy rough under the trees. There's there's been some pretty impressive recovery shots I've seen. And the guys who sort of understand angles and they can miss fairways and miss greens on the correct side and they look like they're going okay, and the ones who miss at the wrong spot they

look like they having all sorts of trouble. So um, it looks a fun place to play and a really fun place to watch golf played. It looks like I've been joined watching it. Sometimes it's it's a bit of a sort of a par fest and a bit boring and down the fairway and on the green, down the fairway, on the green and just chip outs when they miss. But um, there's most shots here are sort of fun to watch and interesting, and there's been great recovery shots.

It's some massive drives. Rory's hitting it so far, it's incredible, So and trouble on the greens. I mean, no one's holding much and look like so it's just all around enjoyable well. And the way the just the way the fairways fan out in every different direction, it is great for spectating in that. Uh, when you have those parallel fairways, like at the old cores, sometimes you can't get on the inside. And but here there's so many great views

and it's such a big ballpark. The crowd, it's a huge crowd, but it's nicely dispersed, so it's I was outside the ropes, just wandering around and you always with the hills and the undulations, you always have a good view, which is nice. But um, Jeff, you mentioned something that that picked my interest about how when they slow the greens down a little bit it can affect you. I

saw I saw a tweet. It was about Burned Wisberger, who his ball striking numbers are off the charts on the European Tour, but he's not known as a great putter. And someone said, well, I think slow greens helped the bad putters because they have to really accelerate and they have to hit the ball hard. It's like less of a yippie delicate stroke and more really smacking the ball

and it takes some of the flinch out. Is there anything to that and do do bad putters like I don't myst dog you the other way to be honest, Um, I think unless you have to hit it, I think fast greens, when you feel like you can just get the ball rolling, I feel like it's a little bit easier. It's a sort of be a bit smoother. I think when they actually have to have a hit it. I mean some of these uphill puts here at Southern Hills,

there's obviously a lot of pitch on these grains. They look like they're having a hard time getting the ball of the whole a lot of the time hitting the ball hard. I think sometimes it's difficult when you're struggling with your putting. Um. I always sort of felt like if I was battling a little bit a fast green, a fast sort of pure grain, that you could just get the ball rolling and trickle, I always felt sort of maybe a bit easier. So look, and I think

it works sort of both ways. I think Wiesberger plays in Europe where they sort of probably normally play slightly slower greens, so he brought me a little bit more comfortable on slower greens. And um, guys who grow I mean, I grew up in Melbourne, so that's probably why I like really fast greens, because we had greens that were probably always just a little bit too fast growing up. And then there's other people who grow up in places

are really slow greens and they're probably comfortable there. So I think it's probably pretty personal. Um. Usually I think pros if the surface is good, bell part well and if the surfaces poor. Not that we played on poor services, but you guys know what I mean, sort of those afternoon greens on the Power and Pebble Beach or New York sort of thing. Sometimes they can get a bit roby, and that's generally when guys are bad, but when the surface is good, most guys out there on make them.

If there's a little bit of a Rip Van Winkle effect for you, I would think because it's been a while since you've been here and now you're watching on TV, the game's change a lot, equipment change al out of the ball certainly changed a lot. The sides of the golfers. Do you see guys playing specific holes differently uh today than you did, uh you know when we were last

year in two thousand and seven a little bit. I mean, it's incredible how like Rory hid it in the trees on was it five and then just hit it up into the greenside bunker and the holes like six and sixty yards. That's that's hard for me to imagine that anybody can do that. The length that the ball has gone. Oh seven was the last time we were there in fifteen years. I guess there's been there's been a long

fifteen years in this game. How far the ball is going now or I mean there were probably a couple of guys who could hear at three twenty or so back then, but now there's a lot of guys who can do it. Um, So I think the length they're hitting it now. But mostly I'm just interested because there's a bit more with some of the fairways what girls done, Um, it's it's brought a bit more within a few more angles.

So there's guys playing shots for frauds from spots that would have been in the rough in oh seven that are now in the fairway, which I'm finding quite interesting. And the rough looks a little bit more playable than it was when we had it back then. So just really sort of just fanning on the golf course and the and the golf is really not really sort of comparing eras too much. But yeah, the big difference is how far so many of these guys had it, And

there's much more drivers. I mean we're a bit more conservative thing. Um. Back fifteen years ago, we we sort of fairway was more of a premium, I guess, or we didn't think we could hit driver quite as straight as they do now. So there's a lot more drivers now and a lot more aggressive, and um, it probably makes a little bit more fun to watch a lot

of times. I think it's fun. We all love to say a guy I have a crack at a sort of a narrow hole and try to drive it up fifty short of the grain and stuff like they're doing with the drivers. So um, all in all, probably more interesting. But yeah, that's the difference, Just that more aggression than

just further. I wonder if the players have changed or the math nerds have won, because you know, there's all the shot linked data where they've kind of proven that it's better off to hit driver and be closer to the green even in if you're in the rough, and some players kind of knew that intuitively, whether it's Calcavecia or maybe you know Phil, but um, you know, they pretty much have have shown that to be the case in black and white numbers, that you just be as

close to green as you can, and whether you're in the rough or not is becomes less important. Do you think information has changed the way? I mean Roy's talking about, you know, looking at the flyovers and Google Earth and there's so much more ways to break down a golf course before you even get here with the stat packages and stuff. I mean, is has that fed into maybe the fact that we're seeing more drivers? I think absolutely.

I mean I think there was for so long in golf it was just done because that's the way it's always been done, you know. I don't think there's been too many deep dives into like why we do it this way. It's just like, well, short puff forwards, we just did it iron and these holes we did driver, and you never do this and you never do that because it was just that's the way we've always done it.

So we do it that way. And I think guys like Jack and Hogan and a few guys that have probably took a little deeper dive into sort of intuitively

trying to work out what worked better. But now within this sort of what are you with the money ball era or the sort of the analytics era, with with all the computers and the stats that are all taken now that sort of twenty years of shot linked better and stuff we've had, there's just, as you say, the number boffins have just gone crazy and just sort of shown us there's a better way to do it than

you've traditionally thought. I mean that sort of old school thought that we used to have that always lay it up to your perfect yardage on a path five for your wedge and stuff. It's just completely gone. Now it's just you basically hit it as close to as you can to the whole after every shot, you know what I mean, Because you're going to do better from a hundred yards and you are from a hundred ten, You're gonna be from better from a hundred and ten than

you are from a hundred and twenty. And that's pretty sort of linear all the way out. So that was never really the way people thought. We just did it the way we always thought it was supposed to be played, and now it's sort of we've been shown, as you say, by the stats guys and the numbers guys, that no, this is actually the way you play golf and do

this as much as you can. There's obviously exceptions all over the place, so that rule, but um, yeah, it's definitely probably one of the more analyzed sports or games that's ever been played. So and I think finally there's people are listening as well, and there's benefit. I mean, there's instant benefit. As I said the shot link era, with all the stats and stuff that we get, it's provable now it's not just sort of theories and fields

and old wives tales and it's actual reality fact. So, um, it's a lot easier to buy into something when someone says, look, you're just gonna you're just going to be better if you hit the ball here, as opposed to hear So, you're absolutely right. If you compare how Bryson played wing fort versus you, uh, you're playing a wing foot, does that be does that become particularly evident in that kind

of comparison? Yeah, well that's the extreme example, right, I mean that's um, Bryson took it to the end, to to the absolute end of that um that week, just in it as far as he could and didn't care of you in the raff and Um, there's there's always been a little bit of element of that, to be honest, in the us open um, because they were always so narrow, or they've traditionally been so narrow, and it's so dead. When you miss the fairway, you might as well miss it.

If you're gonna miss it anyway, you might as well miss it closer to the grain. I mean, So there's always been a little bit of that, but no one ever played it that way, you know. Um he did that way and we didn't do that. I mean, fairway was a premium for me. I just it was fair way. It was just fairway at all costs, really and then work from there. Whereas it's not really that now. It's as far as you can at all costs and then work it out. Um. So it's absolutely a difference. I

don't think. I think there's probably a happy medium in there, in the middle somewhere. I think just the extreme Bryson could do that four or five weeks in a right wingfoot. He probably you wouldn't win every time, you know, because you'd get some really bad lies in the raff and it wouldn't work out. And the guy who was ultra conservative, fairway only sort of guy, he would probably never catch

Bryson on Bryson's good week. So I think there's sort of a I think you've got to take a high sort of level overview and all these sorts of things and just you know, sort of sort of walk in the middle there somewhere. There's there's a lot of different ways to get around a golf course, ultra ultra aggressive to ultra conservative. I mean, Tigers one a lot of majors being incredibly conservative, and that model still probably works

around a lot of golf courses. So I mean, he's one more majors than any of us in the last sort of twenty thirty years. So I think you have to have a look at the way target used to approach it. And there's a piece there's a piece of mind in your head that comes from being in the fairway all day and playing that way. There's sort of a chaos in your head when you're sort of playing

it out of the roff. So and there's a lot in that, and there's a lot of fatigue in trying to recover on every hole and getting it out of the roffs. So I think there's there's somewhere in the middle,

there's the sweet spot for everybody. Everyone is going to be a little bit different, but you can absolutely sort of take some take some of the old wisdom and get something out of it, and take the modern sort of science and get something out of that and sort of find your way around each golf course that works

best for you. I love all that. Um, what did you see from Tiger out there, Michael, Well, he really looks to be in pain, and uh, he's hitting some uncharacteristically bad shots that I don't know if you got If you saw the second shot in the part three eight, I couldn't see the lie, but he had plenty of green. Do you happen to see that one, Jeff, I'm plenty probably very earlier for you. But you know, Tiger has

said this many times. Jeff would love to know your opinion of it, that of all the many records he has in the fifteen shot wins and all the rest, that that cut streak is the thing that he values so much. And I believe it because I think it really speaks to who Tiger is deep inside him, which is a grinder or someone who's not gonna give it up. And we don't know if he's going to make the cut today, but we know he's absolutely gonna give it

everything he possibly has to do it. But having said, he never looks like there's someplace I'd rather be, Like some guys do, look when they're you know, when they could play themselves out of making cut, they can see it right on their face. I don't want to be here. Tigers the total opposite of that, and I think we can see that on his face today. And he's impassive. He's more impassive now than he really has ever been. Uh uh. There's less highs and lows in his emotional life,

it seems. I wrote this yesterday on my story for the Collective website. Is just it doesn't seem to be that much joy in it for him right now. He's just he's just trying to get through it. And that's admirable. I mean, his grind and his grit is we all his legendary. But even when when makes a birdie, it's almost like, Okay, that's one more hole I got in the bank, Like, and I don't question him being here. You know, he's a golfer, he wants to play golf.

He's building towards something, but it just seems like it's a lot of work, and uh, he's looking more for a relief than joy out there, and particularly playing with two guys who do play with a lot of a lot of joy. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's kind of a stark contrast for watching from a far Jeff, what have you seen a Tiger? Yeah, I mean exactly what you guys are saying. I mean, it looks hard work. It looks like a battle of attrition. Um, poor guy.

I mean, he's he's he looks like he's strong, as hard as he ever has And as you said, there is sort of that I wouldn't say resignation on his face, but it's like this is really hard and it's just like one it's truly one shot at the time. He's just trying to get in the house. Um. And as you said, Michael, the the cut thing I always felt, I mean I was one tense of what Tiger was at making cuts, but I always felt like there's some level it's total failure. Missing a cut, especially in the major.

I just it just burns you, and it just sucks. And you've been thinking, you've been working and grinding for this tournament for a long time and thinking about it, and there there are special ones, and going home on Friday night is just total failure. I always felt, and you know he feels the same way. UM, and a lot of guys do. Regardless of how you're playing and making the cut, even if you have a poor weekend, you're still played four rounds, you're still there on Sunday.

It makes a bit of a difference mentally, and you feel like there's some level of success. I think sometimes when you play four rounds, Um. And he clearly he's got a lot of pride in how he plays and just wants to play well every single week. He's obviously very record conscious and he'd loves it. He loves sort of he'd love to look back and really see that he'd only missed a few cuts here and there in majors,

and um, it's very important to him. So I mean, hopefully you can rally here at the end and sort of have a couple of didn't get in the house. Um, But you feel for him. It's like, Tiger, just take a rest and sit down, because it looks like it really hurts playing golf right now. And um, he doesn't need to prove anything to anybody. Ah, but it's fun to watch him grind. It's just tough to watch him hurt.

It looks like, yeah, um, what are you gonna say? Well, I was gonna Jeff, if this is a reach, definitely tell me. But when you talk about like Watson used to says, I hate missing cuts. When I missed the cut, it grates on me, like it was really emotional. Not part of it was, and especially in that error in your error to you didn't make any money if you didn't make up. You came all this way, you rented the house, you got on the plane. You know now

you're making nothing and you're going home. So just it's insulting to your finances to to come to a golf to nam and not not make the cut. With that mind, do you think it's part of this whole live golf thing, the fact that you're gonna make guaranteed money, It is contrary to the very thing we're talking about. Grind it out, make the cut, to make a check. Uh do you think that's gonna work in four live golf or do you think maybe nobody cares in this day and age. Um,

I think it's a really cool part. I think the cut and the fact that more than half go home every Friday night, and the drunk slamming and as I said, total failure when you don't play four rounds. I think that is a really interesting and great element of golf. I think Friday afternoon when you're when when you guys and the players and everybody's sitting on the computer and watching the scores come in and cut line watching when it's bumping up and down and stuff. I think that's

a really cool part of golf. Um. That being said, I mean the w g CS and some great tournaments don't have cuts in their fight. I mean Cape Loua this year was pretty compelling tournament without a cut, you know. I mean, so there's a lot of golf. Um, there's a lot of interesting golf with or without cuts. I think it's a great part of it. I would it would be a massive speculation that I would have no idea that if if that would be any sort of thing that would help make or break two are like

the live thing. Um, I don't know. I think it's a really really cool part of golf. And I think that sort of even though most guys now, especially at this point of sort of making money off the course enough plenty enough to pay for their house and their flights and stuff for the week, Um, there's still that sort of throwback, that feeling that, yeah, it's a complete waste and I've made no money this week if you missed the cut. And I think that's really cool in

golf denated every week. I don't know, but I think it's a really cool thing. Is it a mic or break for tour? If I don't have him? Uh, couldn't tell you, to be honest, I don't know. But it's also you've got to talk about the numbers because if you make the cut and you finished last year at the p g A, you're gonna make what fifteen or twenty k And if you finish last in the Saudi events, you're gonna make two or three hundred. So it's a totally different scale. It's important to whole team event. I

don't know, I'm just too old fashioned. I guess I can't. Actually, I kind of like the team idea, but really, truly, I'm having a hard time getting my arms around it. Yeah, no, I'm just throwing up on this. No, I agree. But if you're if you're saying, Okay, I'm gonna play all eight of the Saudi events, I'm gonna finish dead last in each of them. I'm still to make two million dollars no matter what. Like when you put it like that, that's that that's going to affect your thinking, you know.

But anyway, like when Jeff was saying the other day, you know, part of the golfers a show off. Well, on the flip side, if you don't make the cut, then you've done the opposite of showing off, whatever that is. You know, there's a humiliation factor, I guess. And also the golfer tends to be a big planner, So like

I'm planning to play golf this weekend. Now suddenly you don't have anything to do with it, like now what indeed, But there's also the element that you guys under you guys see it weekend a week out for years that there are so much stress level of guys trying to keep their jobs and stuff in this game and stress about the cuts and not making the cuts, and um,

that might actually keep the level down on some respect. Um. Obviously, competitiveness sort of raises levels, but there's a lot of stress and there's a lot of sort of stuff that goes in players heads purely because they're not sure if they're going to keep their job next year. There'd be an element of this with no cuts and guaranteed sort of work this year and next year and the year after that, the level might go up in some respects,

you know what I mean. So I think if you look at the NBA, it's not like the go who gets benched and doesn't play for a few weeks doesn't make any money, you know, I mean, but he doesn't stop trying any hardy. He wants to get out of the court, you know. So, Um, no one wants to finish field to forty eight. And that will feel annoying because you're going to get the asking. So I'm not I'm not saying that it would, but I'm saying that there'd be an element that would free people up and

it would just be sort of show boating. I mean, if you've done this a lot of times, obviously, because I'm one of them, but if you get sort of four tour players to go off away from all the spotlights and just go and play a Nassau somewhere for a hundred dollars, you'd be blown away and how good The level is so high, it's unbelievable with all the

stress off, you know, and all the pressure off. So there's a level that I think we sometimes see on tour, but you don't quite see it the same as that free loose If DJ and j T or something went out and played for a hundred dollars, I mean with nobody watching, I mean, you'd be blown away at how impressive that would be. So I think this you can argue both directions on that one, and I don't, and I think there's probably a time for both, to be honest.

So I don't really know, um really, As I said, I think the stress and the pressure and that sort of trying to keep your job is sort of so fundamental to golf that I think it would be shame to lose that. But that being said, the other side of that, if you could create situations to get that sort of really loose, free, free swinging sort of talented players doing that, I think you'd see some pretty cool golf too, So I think there's both ends on that one too. It's true because even as goofy as uh,

the Skins game was the old Thanksgiving thing. They were free and loose, they were playing with house money from the get go, and there was some great shot making in those events. And they said when Now I don't know this to be true, but when when when Tiger really was striking with his chip yips, they said he'd go home to metalists. He had no problem the ball beautifully, pitched the ball beautifully, But you don't get him the

Phoenix open. He couldn't hit a chip shot. It's like that doesn't seem possible, but it's possible because we saw it. Remember that's by starts too. I mean, do we want to see entertainment. Do we want to see people play as good as they can and sort of show as I said, show off and be smiling and laughing and not stressed too much when they had a bad shot, or do we want to see the backs against the wall.

I think there's a time for both, I really do. Yeah, that's interesting and and that's why we love major championship golf. Like to your point about this golf course. You know, when we talked about Bryson playing Wingfoot, to me, it's like, you gotta start with that pin sheet here. From from what I've seen to this golf course, it's like, yeah, you can play some misses depending on where that pin is, but that but if you missed the wrong place with

the pin over here, you've got nothing. And uh uh And that speaks to carry Higgs genius for setting up a golf course, but it really speaks to Southern Hills. I think that pin places matters so much about whether you can just sort of rip it and don't worry about it like Bryson was doing at Wingfoot that ye're um, or actually play a really calculated around the golf So uh, you can see this golf course requires a lot of intellectual ability, more intellectual ability and planning and chess than

than just braun. For sure. Yeah, I love all that. Let's run through a few names on this leaderboard, just because because you have Jeff Ogilby and he's an expert in golf correct and also because I know nothing about Mito Pereira, So can you do you know anything about this guy, Jeff? At this exact moment is leading the PGA Championship with two holes to go. My son has a word for this, enlighten me, to be honest, I don't know, probably much more than you guys. I know

we'd love him on the International Presidence Cap Tame this year. Um, playing really well. No, I don't know enough about him to speak too well about him to be honest. All right, well said, it's so good. Oh Justin Thomas. You know he hasn't won a major championship in five years, and I know that that bugs him. He sees himself as a kind of guy should be up there all the time. Um, what do you what do you love about about his game? And what do you think my be holding him back

just from winning these most coveted championships. Um, firstly, was not to love about his game. It's just he It's a great, his short games great, his party is great. He's got he's got that great sort of competitive sort of way about him. I don't know, if you get around him when he's in the mix, he's just into it. You know, he's as into it as anyone's um into it. I mean, he's got that sort of intensity when he plays.

That's sort of very compelling, I think, um. And it was interesting at the twenty at the night of the President's cut back in Role Melbourne, I was carrying sandwiches for our boys and I was sort of sent out to go out in JTS group JT and Cam on the and the singles, and I had I knew he was good, and I was on tour obviously playing a lot when he came out, and he was a good young player. But he impressed me so much. I just was blown away about how good he was. He was

just way better than I imagined. And I it was he looked like the best golfer in the world to me in two thousand and nineteen, and I've just been a massive fan ever since. And yeah, I think, um, yeah, you said he hasn't won a major for five years, that that's that's kind of a compliment because he has won a major, you know what I mean, And he's still very young. Um, I don't think any hold him back. I think that holds him back is there's just a

lot of good players now. I mean back in good days gone by, we would have had you know, Jack and Lee and Tom and a few guys to win and in the ninet is like Faldo, who's gonna win? Nick or greg or you know what I mean. Um, but now this forty guys that started every week, It's like, why doesn't this guy win more majors? Why doesn't this guy win more majors? And it's just so many of them. I just think that they're really hard tournaments to win.

He's clearly gonna well, you imagine, it seems inevitable that he's going to win more than one. He fantastic he wins another p G A. I think it's really really cool when, um, a guy who's dad's been a member of the PGA for a long time, and he's a long time p g A member. I think there's there's a real sort of pride in that in the PGA and that organization. I think it's really really cool when a guy who sort of comes up as part of the family wins the p g A. UM. I think

that would be really cool. But I don't think anything holds him back except for it's just really hard to win majors, and I think, um, it's inevitable that he wins more, and hopefully he wins a bunch because I thought I've sort of admire his game and I love the way he goes about it. So he's in good shape. He's probably playing the best in the field at the moment because he's leading the field from his side of

the draw by three shots. And um, that side of the drawer seemed quite a lot harder than that the guys that are out there in the afternoon today. So um, it's just gonna be fun to watch on the weekend. He's great when he plays. Well, what are your thoughts about? Well, you know, uh, his swing is past. You know, I've wondered as he gets bigger. You know, he's so slender. He's strong, but he's slender. Uh. He's sort of sounded like like like like Jeff is uh uh. It's such

a fast swing. And I don't I mean, I'm not qualified to say what I'm about to say, But when you swing that fast day in and day out, I wonder if does your body want to swing that fast day in and day out. I guess that is what I'm trying to say. Like Ernie, it seems to me that kind of swing or VJ swing or even Tiger, you know, earliness, earliness or even Tiger now it seems like, uh, you can get your take your time, getting yourself in a position and then figure it out on the way down.

But he's so so those those those guys are all big dudes, and JT is this tall. So I mean there's something he's gonna keep up. He's gotta do something a little different. Right, Well, there's the downswing too. I guess I really don't know what I think. Fast. I mean fast swings have worked the right history. I mean Hogan did okay with a pretty fast swing. I mean Watson did okay with a pretty fast swing. I mean I I mean John ROMs done pretty were pretty fast swing. Like,

I don't know. I just think it's I can't even watch that it's so fast. I just I think it's that's a very personal thing. You know. Some people walk fast, some people walks, some people talk fast, some people talk So I think it's as long as you stay within your sort of bandwidth of sort of fire rhythms or pace or natural rhythms or something, I think it's okay. The thing about that I think that it's worth watching with golf swing rhythms and stuff is if they change

under pressure. I think guys whose wings have variable tempos I think can look a little shaky, you know. Um, but his seems to be pretty consistent. He does go at the ball very hard, but that's the modern way, that's what they do. So um, I think he's actually really good. I think he just that's his rhythm. And and now I think Alice points really good. Small guys generally swing it pretty fast, maybe because they need to.

It just seems to be the way it is, or their arms are the shorter and everything shorter, so it looks like it gets there faster. You know. He's took forever to get to the ball right right, It's just that that's that short guy attitude maybe, But um what what let's talk about Roy for it, because he obviously played a beautiful round yesterday. He's he's struggling today. He hasn't show himself out of it by any means, but uh, he just hasn't been able to get it going today.

And um, you know, Michael I talked about Rory last night in our Little Fire Drill Podcastle we just want to hear your voice about Jeff. You know, obviously in the last eight years he's one everything you can win in golf with the Player's Championship and Race, Dubai's and FedEx Cups and a dozen regular tour events. But of course these are the ones he wants the most. He

can't quite get there. So what is your take on where Rory is at age thirty three and um, you know this week, this is how this test matches up with with his skill set? Well, I mean, I think his skill set works out pretty well everywhere. I would think. I mean, of all the players I've played with, most of the guys still up there, all the gray players at last have a long He's probably the most impressive

guy when he's playing his best. Um, when you're out there with him, probably has as much respect from the from the driving range of the locker room as anybody else has for a really long time. I mean, he's just clearly just just total class every I mean, up and down. So I think, and again as I said, it's it's it's tough. I mean, there's a lot of stress living like number one in the world basically his whole career or right up there. It's a tough place to be. Um, and he puts a lot of pressure

on himself. I guess these are hard tournaments to win, these big majors. He sort of fast tracked his first few, you know, did it really sort of easy earlier bit like Jordan's like, you know what I mean, and then it's it's been tough for him. I guess in the big ones. I don't know. I mean, I love watching him play. I think he can play Southern Hills clearly really well. He's playing really aggressively. He seems to being

a lot of drivers. If you're going to have a bad day in a golf tournament, I think day two is not the worst day to have it. I think it's great to get off to a good start. I think it's tough to win a tournament when you have a bad day on Saturday. You clearly don't win when you have a bad day on Sunday. I think if you're gonna if you want to have that loose day, um, you have it on you have it on Friday, And I think he'll go to sleep with sort of a

point to prove tomorrow, you know. Whereas if you sort of carry the lead all week, we all know how hard that can be and it's stressful and wears you out. He sort of goes under the radar now a little bit after being sort of top of the leaderboard yesterday. Maybe he sleeps a little better comes out. He's always been amazing when he's behind. I mean, his final round scoring average and majors is I don't know what it is, but you guys would know it must be really low

because he seems to go low on Sundays every single time. Um, I think he's in great shape. I I imagine it feels like he's going to win more majors and some more big tournaments because he's just too good not to like, it's just it's just going to be almost hard not to win some as good as he is. So everybody loves Rory. I mean, I think everybody would love to see him to win another one. I don't know. I mean, I guess golf is hard, Like it's just hard to

win all the time. You know, we got so spoiled with Tiger and with the best golfer in the world winning pretty much at will and whenever he wanted. It's like that's once or twice ever, you know, with that Jack and Tiger be that guy, you know, and Rory is of a bit more normal, So who knows, But I think he's in good shape this week. I think it's a good course for him. He seems to be

sort of up and about. I think when he left Augusta this year, he would have been very very um jaunty and bouncy sort of walking out of the locker room there after Sunday very excited about his sort of future because of how sort how happy he would have been, and how exciting that finished was, and how sort of confidence building that would have been. So not surprising, the same sort of backing up play well in the next major, and you know, hopefully for Rory fans that he can

have a good weekend. That's great. Um, if there's any of their names that interests you, otherwise we could bring this podcast to a close. But you know, Bubba Watson is going crazy out there. He six under on the day. Matt Fitzpatrick, who loves the stuff golf courses. Stuart Sink, who's you know, as old as I am, maybe older. Um, it's uh are you Stewart Sinks unbelievable? UM, I love that guy. But yeah, it's an eclectic leaderboard. I think it's gonna be I think it's gonna be a fun weekend.

So um, Jeff, thank you guys always for your time. I think we're gonna try and get the band back together Sunday night when it's over and we can we can stop speculating and pontificating. If you can really talk about what actually happens, it will be a delight. But as always, we appreciate your insight. Michael, any any final words. Well, you said it all and you said it will all right for Michael Badger. Jeff Ogilvie, thanks as always for

listening to this Fire Drill podcast. Oh wait, Part Points, I gotta thank our carpet sponsors. Part Points are great friends. At Part Points the coolest golf I've ever invented. We've been talking about all week. We love power Points. I would really encourage you guys to Jeff, have you met these power Points guys? Kevin and Brandon's not. It doesn't matter. These guys travel well. First, they're members of Prairie Dunes. The one guy is really good and the other guy's

nearly as good. And they're very chill. Sounds good, look forward to it. You didn't have to make it weird, Michael. You don't have to make it weird. Is that weird, Jeff? Not for me? It was it weird for you? I liked it all right. On that note, let's let the listeners go. Uh. But anyway, this was fun. We'll do it again. That's all. From Southern Hills Golf Club, country club, big time country. We saw the pool, it was amazing, the courts, the bowling, the billiards. Very much a country club, Jeff,

I I got. I made one interesting observation occurd to Strange the other day we were talking about like who gets good at golf, and like, what are the chances of me saying anything to Occurtis Strange that he hasn't heard. So I said to Curtis, you know, you give me someone who's good at billiards to can make free throws, and you can make that guy good at golf. And Curtis says, yeah, that's actually true. I hand coordination at right. What's your what's your best sport? Like that shows I

hand coordinate. Are you good at darts? Are you good at free throws? Billiards? Basketball terrible? I hit the ball Tennis. I can hit the ball pretty well. Yeah, I don't know basketball hype. Plus I've applied. I was a bit more of a runner. But that's not hand oockbnation, is it. That's hill Polo was always good after like two beers and then really bad after that. Pretty normal. Yeah, that is normal. So we can tell that Michael's enjoying his new role as a prolific podcaster. He'll never let us

end the podcast. It just keeps going. I've already said I've already ended this podcast like three times. I'm sorry. No, I think people are enjoying you better. Okay, that's it. It's a rap. We'll do it against Sunday. Thank you. Jeff h put another log on the fire and we hear is get the Time.