Fire Drill 013: Tiger Tales

living room or rental house in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Michael, welcome, good to see you as always I know, and Uh. On the line with us is John Hawkins, a legend of the golf beat, one of the big dogs carving the tour and the two thousand's and beyond. And Johnny, thanks for joining us, my pleasure, Thanks for having me. Guys back in the day, if you were a German hawk was there, it was a big tournament, that's right. I mean that was Williamsburg St. Jude on them all

the fifth majors. I mean, it's fun. It's fun to think about those old days when you know, we were at s I and you were at Golf World and there was really a sense of competition, like people don't understand how competitive journalism is. And you never wanted to get beat by the other guy. And you guys had

you guys had Tim Rosaford. There was there was there was a lot of uh of energy on that beat, like trying to trying not You had Bob Verdi, you know, we had Guarty and bad Sickle, like there was a lot of talent there and nobody wanted to pick up their magazine a few days later and realized, dang it, I got beat on this one. So those are those were fun times, you know what they were. It was a pleasure to read you guys, Prosier read you and the range of talent that you go Hi you I's

had been Sickle and various others. And the thing about Hawk was much like Gary Smith's. He would ask anybody anything. He said to Curtis when he came off the course at Pinehurst, whatever year that was, I guess when Paine one the first question out of the box of curse we ever went again, Well, John, that's kind of a point to question we want to answer. No, we had to spend a lot of money to compete with spot clistiated. I'll tell you that. Thankfully it wasn't any of mine. Yeah,

those were fun days. Those were fun days. Magazines were were a beautiful thing while they lasted, but they last no more for the most part. But anyway, it is funny to think about we would send our stories off and you'd have to wait three or four days to actually get the physical magazines to see what the other guys wrote. Like imagine that. Like I feel like if I post a story an hour and a half after term ends, it feels like I'm late. Like the immediacy

has changed so much, has changed our jobs too. But that was weirdly, the pleasure of the whole thing was, you know, waiting on it, you know, I mean it was legendary to say, you know, wait on Jenkins or we done on herb Wind. But you know, even in our day to wait on Riley Waite and Garritt were hawk and see what he'd right. It was part of the fun of the thing that the lack of immediacy was actually part of the greatness of it. And it's hard, it would be hard for a young person actually understand

what we're talking about, but it really is true. You waited for that magazine to come and it was part of the fun. Yeah, don't you think, huck, Yeah, I certainly enjoyed those days. I didn't have any problem with the weight. We didn't know that, we didn't know what other it was, right, And I wasn't a big fan of being of covering the tournament after say a major, and having to go find the magazines. They'd often be

sitting in the pro shop and these bundles. Uh, and that would be the only way I would get to read the piece because there was really no internet until what round two thousand. I mean, I know it came along long before that, but uh, I got my first email address, and I I know that what time time AK was? You know, a partner bo l at the Times and they assigned his email addresses and mine was

M Barmburger zero two two four. And Shipnuk says to me, he said, you know, you can probably do something in shorten that, And I said to show him that this email thing it's going to be a fad. I'm still stuck. I'm still stuck with M. Bamburger zero two two atl dot com. Way to read the Tea leaves Michael yea. But so for this conversation, I want to start by by getting into one um, Eldrick taunt Woods, because he's

gonna be a huge force at this tournament. Like Tigers press commerces are now events, his practice rounds are now events. I mean the crowds that are out there following them used to be you know, come Thursday, everyone would tune into Tiger because you had to. But it's like now the second steps on the grounds, and I guess because it's perishable. We know the end could come in any moment, and people just want to reach out and touch history,

and I feel like they're part of it. But uh, you know, you you were there for all of Tiger's greatest winds hawk and you had you had a lot of access to him, And uh, I guess for you this evolution of Tiger from this hardass competitor to now this beloved elder statesman and the innumerable comeback when the grand sweep of Tiger's career, what what moments stand out to you that you know, either on the golf course

or a little stolen moments you shared with them. Oh my god, I could take us for an hour, but I'll spare you. I think that the relationship I had with with Woods was pretty good because he didn't like Tim Rose Afford, uh, and he didn't like a lot of guys, and I guess he trusted me. He tested me plenty, as as the anecdotes in your wonderful book

will test. Actually, UH very different kind of relationship with Phil much like Alan's, by the way, But I love the book as as you guys know, and Uh recently wrote I remember Tiger remember the w g C in Atlanta in Woodstock, Georgia, like two thousand five it was. It was the one that was started in Spain and ended up in about I think it ended up in like Iceland or something. It was. It moved so often

before it finally went to Funk. And I remember Tiger coming up to me afterward after he played around, and he said hawk Camarre Camara and drags me over and he pulls me into a private area. Just I man, I read that article you wrote the other day. It was so funny and I was taken aback. I'd never had Woods uh respond to anything I'd ever written on him or anybody else. And this wasn't really about him.

It was just one of these pot pourri deals kind of you know, one off with the butt of bings at the end of each at the end of each graph, and that that sticks out because it showed me about something about Tiger that I roy didn't know. I think he he didn't like to be bothered at Majors, as you guys know, he'd come in and do his thing.

As for as for the here and now, not only is he perishable, but he's he's really become you know, this is kind of the ultimate comeback for him, although I still think twenty nine, the twenty nineteen Masters was his eighty six Masters, much like maybe maybe it feels one p g A may turn out to be sort of the coup de gras, whatever you wanna call it.

I don't think he has anything left to prove. That said, I think you get factor this week if he's if he's only taken one day off between the Masters and p GA, he's got to be in pretty good shape competitively heading in. Yeah, but you know, going back to that, that that moment where you know Tiger tapped you up for that story, like at his roote, he's a golf nerd, and he you know, he loves. He loves the game, he loves to read about the game, he loves to

talk about the game. He venerates the history. So I'm not surprised that he was he was pouring over some random article in Golf World, because he's kind of this all knowing, all seeing, uh, you know figure in my mind, like he doesn't miss anything. Now, he won't often admit it, but I feel like he was. He was always watching and he was always reading, and um, this underrated part of of Tiger's persona, like he doesn't miss much. Do you remember do you remember the golf trip we went

on to Ireland? What was that? Was Timie on that trip? No Man Janella Alan. It was Bistrom. It was Bistrom. Was the fourth was we brought Bastroom might not have been our best call. We'll leave that alone for the masses. I remember seeing Tiger later on that trip in in dining room at one of the those fine places we were sponging free room from and uh Tiger. It was early in the morning. He was like seven am, and Tiger had to stack of clips like had to be

media stuff. I mean, I gingerly approached him after I had finished breakfast and at a time that didn't look like I'd be bothering him. I always tried to tiptoe my way over there, hoping he'd see me and either tell me to you know, g F yu or h come on over and uh, yeah, he you can't be that famous and and that and even remotely clueless. He had to keep up on everything. But anyway, I remember that that was Duval was on that trip. They were they were They had a helicopter and it was Duval.

It was two thousand and two because Duval had the Claret jug he was on there. He was going to return it the next week as defending Chap and it was we were packing up our rooms and his it was in this wooded crate and it was outside his room, and I was just walking through this courtyard, and for a split second I thought about stealing it as kind

of a joke. And could you imagine the panic that would have set off if Duval had lost the oldest trophy and golf like and that we could have just kept it for a few days and I had a little fun with it, but I chickened out to my everlasting regret, because I remember that there they had it was we're at the cake club? Is that everywhere? Yeah, that sounds right. I think, Yeah, Tiger was so rather, Tim was so fair with everybody. What was Tigers slaying with him? What? Why? Why? Why did why did he

even have a beef with him in the first place? Michael, I think the problem Tiger had wasn't just with Tim, but with John Strady and anybody else who made a dime off of Tigers being off his likeness. Uh, and those guys wrote books on Tiger, and for whatever reason, Tiger took extreme umbrage to that. He didn't want people making any money off of his life story was the first you know him eventually kind of fell out of favor with him, and I'm sure I did at some point,

although I never wrote a book on him. Um well hideas I mean, he was a co author on The Big Miss with Hank Caney, and so I just understand why they might have been upset because it's some sort of unspoken code about the player caddie relationships, like is like is it like a client privileged sort of thing? Even though I'm sure we all disagree, but I know that was Tiger's take. But I mean Stringy's book was

so affectionate. It was really the first biography and he had he was writing for the Orange County Register and he just knew the family well. And like I always think that's one of the best Tiger books there is. It's hard to imagine they were upset about that. And then Rosaford like he did it in like two thousand and Tigers. He's right, and he was like the biggest athlete in the world coming out out of that season.

And it's so my opic. Like both those guys helped burnish Tiger's legend and they helped they helped get fans excited about him. They helped fill in the gaps on his story, like Tiger was making enough money, why would he be gruds? You know, Tim rosa fort a small advance on a on a golf book, Like it's to me, it's so bizarre. And do you know the story about about Tim covering a tiger and Earl at Newport at the second U s m uh, it depends what story

you're talking about. Enlightened me, partner, Well, the part I'm trying to get you started on is uh is Earl lifting the trophy at thet when when it was all over. When after Tiger had defeated defeat a Marucci for a second U s M. When he said that my son will win fourteen major championships, that was part of it. Can you feel a son on the rest of or maybe you don't know, I'm imagining you might, or maybe

you don't cover that tournament. That that was before I was still getting told to perform some anatomical impossibilities from people like Bobby boy uh and uh Roberto Album. I was still covering baseball. Hey hawk, I've seen Bobby Bonney in recent years, and those anatomical things that you're talking about. He can't even think about him. He's so large. So

who's getting the last lap? Here? Anyway? Just to briefly finish up my own little self, you know, I was trying to wind you up, but I didn't realize that. And it doesn't take much. You know, this is part of the legend of Rosa, Forden and Tiger and this will only be interesting in the three of us. And you know, uh, maybe being sickle, he's listening. Um, but

so Tim has been covering tegraph for a while. You know the chap reverse, don't you where I'm going I do not even bother Michael, You're eight miles down the road. You gotta finish, right, you gotta now, you gotta finish. That's the Detroit thing. Eight miles Okay. So uh so, I don't know the exact quote. I was there myself. I think the quote goes like this. He lists or lift the trophy and says, I hope Bobby Jones is

spinning in his grip. I hope Bobby Jones is spinning in his grave knowing this stove was going to a black man's home for another year. But a little bit more profane than that. Anyway, Tim's got it somewhere deep in the story, but he's using it, and the s I editors took it, and you know, period new graph, he's gonna win fourteen Earl, period new paragraph. And now it was the kicker or was way upon the story was one expreiment the other. You know, Bobby Jones kissed

my ass, blah blah bla. This show was going to a black man's home for another for another year. And of course Tiger and Earle, but probably Earl. Tiger probably

thought it was funny. Earl hated it. And I think that was the beginning of the end for for Tim with with the Woods is even though he went out of his way to be so so fair and scrupulous with him and reported with a lot of integrity, what's amazing is that Tim got the saint treatment as Charlie Pierce and Charlotte Pierce completely through Tiger round the bus. I mean, there was no middle ground. You were either uh, Tiger would either talk to you or he he loathed you.

And uh, it wasn't the process wasn't quite fair. But then Al and I have talked about this many times. That is very telling, and that is telling about his whole thing. Or it's either you're either on Tigers team or you're off Tiger team, and there is no other area to be. And of course we can't be on a team, but a lot of people can. His competitors, you know, Zack Johnson can't be on team Tiger. He's not Tiger's enemy, but he's trying to beat Tiger too.

And if he's not gonna beat him, he's gonna try to make you know, the best checking can. But Tiger cannot see the world that way. And of course I think it comes out of a military perspective, and it was very, very very effective for him. But now this new Tigers, like, oh yeah, I miss having dinner with the guys. Like what I mean? Have you ever in your life seemed tire eating out anywhere? You've seen everybody, You've seen Ernie's seen John Dale, You've seen everybody. You've

never seen Tiger. I've never seen Tiger. Have you ever seen Tiger eating dinner? Have you Huck ever? I never did, I ever saw him eating a meal with anybody but himself, except for the memorable exchange in the Dallas in the last Collina's dining room at Allen Uh, he wrote in the book, when Phil came schmaltzing up with his tray like some nerd in the eighth in the Junior High cafeteria, Can I join you guys? And then he sits down Tiger.

That's what made another thing I loved in Allen's book, the banter between Michelson and Woods at state dinner, which

I had heard. Um, I think that's really when it kind of started turning around the whole Michaelson Woods, I don't know if it's a friendship, that's probably too strong a word Tiger's ability to tolerate Phil uh seemed to him prease after he'd gone through his first wave of problems in the early times, not to mention, and I I kind of knew it at the time, but I had forgotten all some of the details as I got

into the into the weeds on this book. Was that there was that period where Phil started beating Tiger with regularity, and it really started in in you know, eight oh nine and for about five years, and of course the

scandal change Tiger's trajectory. We all know that, you know, but uh, Phil was beating Tiger every time they were paired together, and and it kind of culminates at Pebble Beach in two thousand and twelve when it's really the worst beat down of Tiger's career, and Phil shoot sixty four and Tiger shoot seventy five and Phil just blows

him off the golf course. So I think even in those victories, Phil still bit his tongue and knew was not a good idea to taunt Tiger, And I think that increased Tiger's respect for Phil, that he beat him, but he also kept it classy, and and that that definitely shifted that dynamic a little bit between them, and I think that's how that's how you get Tiger's respect might not sacking down, and and there was a period of Phil retreated, but you know, kind of later in

their relationship he started giving it back to Tiger. I think that helped their relationship strangely, but if they if they have anything like a real friendship, you couldn't prove it by tigers proscarfance this week where he says, quote, I haven't reached out to him. I mean, here's Phil probably the lowest period of his of his life that we would that we would know about any way. And uh, if Tiger go ahead hook no, no, if if if if he has some sort of friend especially in this

day of texting, I hope you're okay. If you want to talk, let me know. That's easy as could be. And uh, he eppenently hasn't done that by by by what by what he's describing. So I think that's very telling. I'm loath to disagree with that on anything Hawk, But in this instance, I think we've been I think we've been fed a story by both sides, you know, leading up to that Las Vegas thing between the two of them.

I don't think there's anything there except for actually animosity for the uh not fill to Tiger, because I think Phil generally is rateful for all the Tiger's done for golf, I e. Raised versus immeasurably. But I think Tiger has no use for philm Well. I mean, it's a very

interesting situation. Saw you guys, I you remember, I mean twenty years and twenty two years ago, it was Tiger beefing about the tours using his likeness and and all the very same proprietary ownership things that Phil complained about at the first stage of his uh you know, grand gripe against the tour h a few months ago. It was Phil Tiger had a problem with the tour making a bunch of money off and the saying it's just

an identical argument. What's what's kind of somewhat stunning is that Woods wouldn't even reach out to him and say so, like poke fun at him, like I bitched about that when you were still trying to win your sixth tour tournament, right it was. Tiger can be very very snarky, very witty. He rarely reaches out in a in a loving way right, There's a lot of ways to transit transmit a message. I'm surprised he didn't do that. Well, there there's a I mean, there's a cold blooded side to Tiger. We

all know that. Yeah, you know, even like his his pr guy Glenn Greenspan, who we all knew worked worked for Tiger and stuck by him through all the different all the scandals, and and then when it was when he fell out of favor, he was just gone and Tiger never reached out to him, right, Like that's how as the story goes, Like, do you think if you had someone who's who's by your side through thick and thin for a decade, you would want to at least

personally end the relationship. But I think Tiger's somewhat conflict diverse. You'd rather have other people do that sort of thing for him. And how do you have any insight into that white white white Tiger? Let Glenn Glenn go no idea? I'm not surprised. I mean, uh, there's a similarity and harass the only one between Tiger and Greg Norman. Every relationship ship seems to end with a burning bridge. Uh uh. Obviously Steinberg is the only guy that survived at all, uh,

Joe Lacava. I suppose as a chance in this era of kinder, gentler Tiger. But they all end in flames. They all end with no way across the water and therefore no way back. And when when you think about when you think about Steve Williams being a Tiger's wedding and Tiger being at St Williams wedding, who would guess that, you know, ten years whatever years later they would not even be on speaking terms Now. I think they are to some degree, but certainly not like what it was

the best tigers. Tiger was Stevie's best man. He was not just a passive attendant. I mean, he played a very important role. Like that's wild. I don't know too many people who won't even talk to their best man, you know, a few years later, Like that's a very strange turn any relationship, right, And the relationship disintegrated because Stevie worked for Adam Scott. I mean, is that the whole story? I mean, that's what we were allowed to believe.

That's not really well he was, that was part of it. But when when the whole scandal broke after Tiger around

over the fire, hydrant. And as the story goes, Stevie begged for Tiger to make some public statement that you know that Steve Williams was not a party to this, and he didn't know about it, because Steve is a very black and white kind of self righteous guy, and it was just assumed that anyone who was in Tiger's orbit was kind of facilitating all these secret liaisons and everything, and and and Steve Williams wanting to be exonerated of that.

And of course Tiger never did that, and I think that was really the source, and Adam Scott was the symptom, not the cause. Well, I never even believe that, you know how your point earlier about you know, you're either on the team or off the team. There's no you know, black or white, there's take a side. I've never bought that whole Adam Scott thing. I think when Steve Williams went to work for Adam Scott that week, he was quitting because you can't work. You know, Adam Scott is

the enemy. He's trying to beat me in majors. Even though I'm not playing this week, it doesn't matter. You're still you're consorting, working and working for the enemy, and I think Steve Williams had to know uh that even working that one off, even if he quote had permission, which I don't know the ins and the outs of that, that was tandem out to quitting. Disagree with that. So certainly always seems there's a public reason and then one that's the real one can be fed. Oh here here's

another one that we might want to discuss. How about how about Butch. I mean, Tiger had all the town in the world, but Butch, by all accounts, including Tigers, did bring him to another level. And that swinging two thousand speaks for itself. Um, And once Butcher was out, Butch was out, and I think I don't really Maybe one of you guys recalled, I don't recall the ins and the I think Butch quit on Tiger, but I don't recall that the tales of it. Yeah, it was

just it became afraid relationship. I think Tiger resented Butch's high profile in the media, and he did feel like Butch was making money off of him, which he kind of had to because Tiger was only paying a fifty grand a year and Butch was leveraging the fame in different ways, but that's his golf schools and his and the things on the side, and and somehow that bothered Tiger, like it was Tiger demand it's it's sort of trump and like he demanded blind loyalty and exclusivity, but he

wouldn't give it back. And so yeah, I think I remember Butcher Butch saying that he was offered a million dollars to write a book about Tiger, not a tell all at all, more like how I teach Tiger Woods how to play golfer? How I did while he was still working for him, And and Butch wisely went to Tiger and said, I've been offered this sum of money. I don't know the exact sum, but I think it might have a million dollars certainly would be reasonable or believable.

And the and and the answer from Tiger was, you know, you do what you want, but I prefer If he didn't, well that's means, don't do the book if you want to keep your job. And and Bush didn't. But that's just how the Tiger demands complete fidelity. It's or use the word of the moment galty, which was an outlier, and that he talked freely about Tiger and the relationship and the things that they worked on. Not every day, but certainly I think Butch probably talked himself out of

that job to a certain extent. I would also point out, however, that Tiger there probably wasn't a whole lot more Tiger was going to get out of Butch, Um, Well, how about how about just keep doing what you're doing. Don't change anything, don't don't put don't put on, don't go to the gym so much, don't put on any weight. Your body is perfect, the two thousand bodies perfect. Swing is perfect. Let's just keep a good thing going. But

I think, why would you, Why would you change? Because not if you want to us open by well, but here's the thing. I mean, Tiger always had to be working towards that. He always had to be improving. That's what got him out of bitter. But he was this quest to get better. He didn't want to just do maintenance and try and keep the same thing. He wanted to get better. And it's an admirable mindset, it is.

That's what that's what takes you the mountaintop. But you wish when you when you get to the mountain top, you could just stay there. But so many you know, whether it's Iatan Baker, Finns, it was Puddrick, just seven degree, that drive to get there. You can't just shut it off. He so believed that thing. If you're not getting better, you're getting worse. And I mean, I guess as a

truism it's true. But if you're winning US by fifteen, you can win a bunch more US opens by six and five and four and three and two and one

and still catch Big Jack. Well, yeah, that's true. But and Tiger would argue, And Steve Williams has always said this that the Tiger in oh six oh seven was better than Tiger in two thousand, that he had more control, he had more shots, and he may have lost a little bit of explosiveness, but the and maybe his ceiling was not quite his eye, but the floor was much higher, and he played at a much higher level. And you know, and he was winning like crazy. He wasn't winning by fifteen.

So in Tiger's mind, maybe he had to leave butch to keep evolving. I mean, the rest of US, I don't think so. I think that you know, the body was giving on just some degree because not nothing to do with Butch, but what Tiger was doing to the body and then the body couldn't make the swing that Butch loved. We all love so much because it was so beautiful to watch. The body looked weird and then a weird swing had to be constructed that would work

with that money. Yeah, but I mean it is it is frustrating your Patrick Harrington and you win three majors in thirteen or fourteen months. I just keep doing what you're doing. But he doesn't have He couldn't shut it off either. I mean, there's a lot of guys who they just that they're on the never ending quest and I respected even though in hindsight it can look like

it can look like folly. But I will say it's fun to excavate all these old Tiger stories because we're at this age of haggeography where a lot of there's this whole generation who who have come up revering Tiger.

They weren't that close to him during the years when he was, you know, pretty much the biggest thing in the world as far as his fame and the adulation was untouchable, and then the scandals changed everything, and now he's he's come back so many times he's been humanized, and he tries, he tries a little harder to appear softer and gentler. But we kind of know the real Tiger. We lived it for before everyone else came on the scene. So you forget about some of these these these these

old battles and these old quirks. It's how about that quote from Armin in the HBO special where somebody says that, oh, you know, I'd like to get a piece of Tiger. I wish I could get a piece of Tygers Prime, and Norman says, the fuck you do. It's a classic. It's a classic. I remember telling Michael on the phone, it's been a couple of years now, that when he was lying on his back in seventeen that summer, and

I think he looked up to the sky. I mean he was already like this twelve hours a day, uh, if not twenty four uh and saying, you know, basically coming to terms with the big eyes, saying, if you get me out of this bed and you get me back on green grass, standing up and hitting balls, I'll I'll change. And I think that's what we what we've

come to enjoy. Might be too strong were. But the metamorphosis of Tiger into the kinder, gentler sort is an interesting one because you would think that a guy whose blood ran that Chili seven until he was about what, until he until his life came to pieces. The transformation was so dramatic it's hard to understand. For those who weren't old enough for a part of it before oh nine, they would have a very difficult time understanding what we're

talking about. And if you were incarcerated in two thousand nine and he didn't hear anything about Tiger, you'd have a hard time. I'm believing that he's a vanilla cupcake nowadays. I mean, it's just so weird, that so market and I don't know how manufacturer it is well that I'm kind of glad to use that word hawk, because I mean, you know, we all remember the Buick ad, the Nike ads,

the Bridgestone adds, the press conferences. One of my you know, starting points of Tiger is, you know, forget about Tiger and the golf course that stands by itself for all time, but off the golf course, Tiger is one of the greatest actors the world has ever seen. I really do believe that and uh So, with respect to all that

you're saying, I have a different view. I think Tiger has worked masterly to manage his public image, and I think it would be impossible for any of us to understand how hard it is to and I say this with a lot of empathy, all the empathy that I have, how hard it actually is to be Tiger Woods. Oh, I wow, I agree with you on that. I mean, I wouldn't want it. I wouldn't want any of that. I think he's he is, to me, living proof that

fame is a drug. Uh and he overdoes back there in two thousand nine, and the rest is the rest is history forgotten. It's a drug, and it's a prison. We we tend to remember the most real you know, it's just it's it's It may end up being the same thing with Phil, who knows, although Phil seems to be in a much hotter water than Tiger ever was. I don't know which is which is crazy because Tiger broke actual laws, you know, with his d u I and all that, and feel has only broken some unwritten rules.

And yet it does feel like like it's it's in somebody. It's gonna be harder to feel for Phil to come all the way back, which is wild, because I mean, Tiger was on the back page of the New York Post twenty days in a row. Like if you remember the salaciousness of that scandal and the intensity and the vanity fair pictorials of all the girls and all of that stuff, like it's it's forgotten now, but it was a wild happened. Yeah, he wishes it was the backpage

because that's the sports page. He was on the front place above page. Right, that's well said, like, um, and I guess you know Tiger was lucky that was just before the dawn of Twitter. Really, like I didn't, I didn't. That's what caught me on Twitter in early two thousand and ten, Like he just That'scampa came out just before the height of social media, and I think that that helped helped it kind of fade away in the collective

memory a little faster. But like the for of those who you know, lived through it, like it was hard to believe you could ever put that in the rear view mirror. But Tiger has pretty effectively. Uh it's hockey, You've got You've got a good rapport with Phil. Uh I don't know if you've been talking to about all In in more recent years. But what would you advise Phil if you could, if if you're I mean your a reporter, and you might say that's not quote might play.

But you know, we also have personal relationships a lot of these people. What would you say to him? I tell him that I tell him with after probably I probably need a couple of shots of whiskey before I walked into the room. But I tell him that he asked to completely disclose. He has to tell the complete truth. The same thing with Norman. I mean, Norman makes that ridiculous comment about the SHOWGI Great Normal. Was just too ignorant to understand the magnitude of that situation as it

related to so many people across the world. As for Phil, you come out, you say I've got a problem. Actually I've got a couple of problems, but I want I need to settle this one first. Uh. I think it's fairly evident that money played a huge role. I don't want to get a suit here. But although if Alan can't get us suit, then nobody can. The jury is out on that one. It's it's early days. Well, there's still plenty of time. But I think you've got to

come completely clean. You've got to you've got to bear your soul. You've got to stand naked in front of the world and say, Hi, my name is Phil and I got a problem. What what mechanism would you do it? And would you have a press conference? Would you do sixty minutes with Jim Nance? What? What would you does? Barbed water still alive? I don't even know that. I

you know, I would try to do it. You know how, when it's really something really important, you don't text theree email, you pick up the phone I think you're taking it, uh, or or if it's a really big deal, you do it in person. I think he's got to do it. I think he's got to do it with I love the idea of doing it on sixty minutes or or or like a blue curtain, a big blue curtain hill emerge from and just you gotta see him. You gotta

be able to see him. You gotta be able to watch every every facial tick and how he reacts to everything. And he's gotta he's got to make him. He's got to avail himself to some very very difficult questions. Until then, he's he's really not going to be forgiven. Look twenty all, the hardcore Phil legion is never gonna think he did anything wrong. They're like the folks who stormed the capitol. Okay. Then you've got the people who the that don't really care,

that don't really know what he did. They just appreciate him for his golf and all the enjoyment he brought to them as a player. And then you've got that middle sector, I don't know fifty six of all people who might be interested in such a matter probably need to see how Phil reacts in his first public appearance, regardless of the context, and see how he reacts to at all. Hey, that's why I didn't show up at Southern It couldn't show up at Southern Hills. That was

not possible. It certainly wasn't even remotely practical. You don't show up in a golf tournament, uh and turn it into a confessional, right, this is this is what his problems were. Multifold. He committed Uh, he committed crimes of code.

And who knows where this thing's gonna end? I mean, uh, he the way he talked about the tour alone was probably probably his biggest sin, right, I mean, he made all this money over thirty years on the PGA tour and now he's basically well not quite defaming it, but doing his best and uh, well it's it's pretty rich.

If you're over in Saudi Arabia taking a bloated appearance for to accuse the tour of obnoxious greed like that, you're sort of telling on yourself in that in that scenario, like I hear what you're saying like that, especially from his colleagues, Like that's the original sin is that you know that Phil was was essentially working against their own interests because you know, if this, if this Saudi tour succeeds and they get a big TV deal and then

they start signing up big corporate partners like Rolex, like that's going to siphon money away from the tour, the PGA tour and all of a sudden, like phils directly threatening the livelihoods of most of the guys on tour. Now, some of the top stars could could get cherry picked and play in Saudi Arabia, but all the guys who are thirty to two on the money list, like they they're not have that opportunities. You wouldn't think so he was.

He was threatening their livelihoods, and that's why the players are upset. Yeah, understood, But but it seems to run. It's run all through the golf community. I mean Dave Stockton saying that he wasn't missed at the PGA Champions dinner last night. That's Stockton is not exactly the mainest guy whoever lived, And it's like, no, he wasn't. It's it's almost like everybody has a license to take a shot at the guy, and he does he deserve it. Yeah, I suppose it's pretty easy to make a case that

he does. Um, what he did flew in the face of all rational behavior as it relates to being a professional golfer. Uh. Never mind the fact that he's made what for how much a lot of money? He's made eight hundred million dollars over the course of his thirty year career, at least that was the estimate I saw. That's uh for him to have any perceived, any real

financial problems that might have led to this. Uh, dallly answer to this relationship with the Saudis boy, it just it runs deep and it runs wide, and we don't know where the river ends? Very interesting. How are you consuming you know, you're you're You're not on the road as much as it used to be. How are you consuming your golf these days? Column? I'm writing a TV column. I just started about two months ago, a media column. Lets a TV column right from morning read. I write

once a week. I'd love more work, but it's not easy. It's not easy to find work, especially when you are known as a maybe a bit of a sniper or uh. I want to write columns. I like to write. I don't think the game has nearly enough of that stuff. And you know that's that's what's missing from the old days. It's the critical element. Everybody's in bed with everybody else now it's it's really it's not covered the way the NFL it's covered. I mean it's it's just not covered

like like the rest of professional sports are covered. I mean, Michael, you live got the Sixers are are dirt right now. I mean they lose to the to the who I mean, they get trashed. They did everything they could to put together a team that could make a run for the NBA championship. They were unsuccessful. Now the run town, we don't right right exactly, and we don't have that type

of of objectivity or journalistic sensibility and golf. It's kind of weird when the players when the when we had actually more access to the players and a better report with them, it was actually easier to be honest in our reporting about what they were actually like. And now that we don't really know them because they're you know, they're they're so quarantined, it's harder to and the courage

is far more bland. It's it's an I've never thought of it that way, but it is a very odd conundrum, as you've just described well, because so much, so much of the coverage is comes from the tour itself, and then you go to a tournament now and there's more PGA Tour social media staffers and there are actual reporters, and then there is an element of the golf media that you know, the term fanboy has been attached to them and and whether that's fair or not, I mean

it does exist. So uh, there's for the people who are doing like old school journalism, you're in the minority. There's there's all these other elements you have to compete with, and from the agent standpoint, and maybe the players themselves they know it's much safer to go with the approved channels, which is the tour or or these other channels where

you know, they're not really trying to do journalism. It's more about it's experiential and it's more about kind of being being browed up with the players and if they've obviously found audiences, and that's great, but it does make it harder for people who want to do kind of more serious objective journalism because the players are only gonna

give so much time. They only have so much bandwidth for quote unquote media, and if they have these other homes, these other safe harbors, there's really nothing in it for them to to give time to people who might want to be more critical or more objective or have a little more of a John Just eye. So it is a challenge for for those of us who are left were trying to cover the sport in a more serious way,

sort of getting squeezed out in in certain situations. And U said, you have to find a different way to do the job that's maybe not as access based. But as you're saying, Michael, then you don't get to know the players. There's not that intimacy, and it creates its own challenges. Look back, when you were doing that Great Goose show on on Golf Channel, was there ever any sort of limitation put on you, either spoken or unspoken,

about what your view could be? Well, I think I had one thing removed from the air and the rebroadcast because it had to do with my quitting drinking. Uh. One of the shows who has taped, I don't remember. You know, I was never a guy, right, I just quit become h. I had I had stretched my childhood as long as it could, and I UH made mention to it. Uh. And because Grey Goose makes vodka for a living, that was the only thing that was ever caught in a hundred and forty episodes or whatever it was.

There was never an opinion that was deemed either inappropriate or too dangerous or bad for business. That was I know that the folks who UH made the deal with the vodka company worried about I think me and maybe a couple of the other guys. And there were some changes personnel wies on the show that made it a little softer as time went on. But I was never told by Kevin Schultz my wonderful producer for all four years.

I can't say that I can't do that. He couldn't take it far enough for him, and that was a wonderful experience. I mean for for people don't even know what we're talking about. This was the Gray Goose nineteenth Hole. It was this lively show on the Golf Channel basically

Monday through Wednesday, when we're gonna have tournament golf. You could fill those gaps and it had a little spice and it was really debating these two to the day and it was kind of like the sports reporters remember that show, or a little like pardon my interruption, is point point counterpoint on sixty minutes for those who remember that. Yeah, and you know now on the Golf Channel, like the

Major weeks is great. You know, there's there's there is a lot of opinion because they do to live from but otherwise week to week, I don't think they're looking for that that that kind of that kind of edgy content. You know, they're they're kind of a broadcasts partner of the tour and it doesn't seem like they're welcoming criticism

of the product. And uh, you know it's that's kind of what we're talking about earlier, Like the whole tone of the golf media has shifted, because back when we were there in the nineties and the two thousands, it was a lot of newspaper guys and it's a competitive business and everyone was fighting claw and to get great stories and to beat each other, and and there really it really was a beat like you're talking about Hawk, Like if if you're covering the Yankees, you know, there's

a lot of people and everyone and there's an energy there. And and then of course there was structural changes to the whole industry that affected everyone, but especially on the golf beat because it was a big city newspaper started contracting in the two thousand's, the first guy to go was was was the golf reporter because they still had

to cover their football and basketball and baseball teams. But like I remember, used to roll up and and every big city newspaper had a really talented writer, you know, from Dallas, from Orlando, from l A, obviously Chicago, like at Cleveland, you name it. Like these guys covered the game full time. And you'd go in the press room and there was big egos and there was a lot of talent, and it was it was cool man like,

I'd love that energy. Uh. And one by one they started to disappear, and and they've never really been replaced. Remember let me let me throw this guy at you. Remember back in nine when when the four guys, the Brookline four rebelled against the uh the PGA practice of not paying the players. Remember how hard Lindsey Comb and all of Chicago column just ripped the players. I mean it was it was, it was a little they were

driving a little bit blind. I mean, there were It was a realistic issue and that there were two sides to it. And ultimately the players have got their way. They they found a nice compromise and money would be donated charity, and that's a practice that continues to this day. But those guys were, oh my god, they were they were uh quartet. They were the collective pariah in the golf universe there for for good month. Yeah. Yeah, because I grew up admiring Dave Anderson at the times, you know,

and then later got to know him. Did you have a guy like that? You know? I worked with John Steadman at the very beginning, a little loopy, Uh, not nearly as grounded as Dave. I was so lucky when I was at the Ball and when Hews American from early eighty four until it closed in eighties May of

eighty six. I mean those were great. Two and a half year had had a lot of guy Bernie Nicholas, Jeff Gordon, Mark Snyder onto that we just had not always not not not a ton of big names, and many of them have probably long since left the business. But boy, you know, we used to cover a lot of games, uh NFC East games, and I knew all the guys up in your market, Bill Lyons and Mark cran I mean there was there were so many great

newspaper guys. I was one of those dweeves who really took it upon myself to read, uh all the newspapers. I could get my hands on all the sports sections. I could get my hands on guys like Ron Borge's or Mark him. I mean there's a million of them. They were, they were, they were all great writers. I never really had a Dave Anderson until I until I got to Golf World Slash Golf Digest, and there was

Dave Anderson. But you know, my favorite, like every like many of us, Jenkins was was Jenkins was God, kind of like clapped in back in the old days. Jenkins was God. I wonder what Jenkins would think of the kinder gentler Tiger called bullshit on Are you kidding me? Was it you? Was it you who wrote on the subway well, Jenkins's God? Or maybe that was somebody else. I might have I might have grabbed this can of spray paint. He he was, he was critical, he was

to the point, he was a master. And uh, you know, as hard as Rick Riley tribe will never have another one, not like that. I met a guy today who uh Tulson native, who just a fan but loved Jenkins so much. And I can't remember if it was the Oh one Open or the Oh seven p g A, but um brought a backpack that had like four Dan Jenkins books and somehow talked his way into the pressure and got Jenkins to sign them. All. I was like, that is

an awesome story. He was more excited to meet Dan Jenkins and he was to meet any of the players in the field like that was tonight. Yeah, yeah, just yeah. I had a little book siding thing and who did you want to sign him? He wanted you just signed Jenkins. No, he just told me because we were he was we were just talking to He's just a lover of golf literature, and and I was like, man, that's mad. Respect, Like it's back a backpack full of books, like you're going

to the library. But well, tul Jenkins Country, Yeah, that's right, the whole Southwest. He owned the sec. Yeah, he said something to me, this guy that I met. He said, a lot of guys can write about about golf, but Jencken's a about golf, whiskey, sex, and chicken fried steak. I said, I could maybe can do two of those at most. Absolutely. I mean some of the loudest, some of the greatest l wells of my life were courtesy

of Dan Jenkins. Yeah. He um. He was more fun probably to sitting next to the press room than actually read the stuff, because a lot of stuff you couldn't get in the print. He would mutter through the corner of his mouth and you could always hear tittering around him because he was just so naturally funny and sharp. How did you ever know a cops reporter in Baltimore named John Wade Jennings. He was on the news American

He when the news American clothes. He came to the inquiry He was a golf bumb like like us and uh, but he was a cops reporter and he's just a natural. Cops love talking to him. And one year I went to the Uh, some kind of sheep. I don't think Alan was there behind me? Was there? There was a sheep? Was s get together for writers hawk. You might have

been there. I think I'd remember if you were. But it was in Carmel and we sat in a circle and her legs across the arms or cross and you know, we're doing the yoga thing and we're trying to close their eyes and you know, and going to some happy place. And I could not stop laughing because I was thinking about this John Way Jennings from from Baltimore who would come up to to the to the Inquirer. He came

to work in a T shirt. And if he saw me they're contemplating, you know, the meaning of golf in this kind of thing, he would have laughed his ass off. And so that made me laugh uncontrollably. And then when I was asked what was so funny, and I maybe said something and they said, you know, they congratulated for being for me to being in touch with my mirth. But you know, this is this is the suic iron

society society thing. But we were lucky. John Allen's a little younger, but we've been lucky that we've been able to We caught the I mean I literally caught the lesson to typewriters and uh, as you said, those guys ripped dubal and uh and who was it? Uh Tiger and o'mira and whomever else just because they didn't like it. They didn't like it, and they're gonna let you know, well, the ace of what people were used to go. Golf is a Golf is a is a is an old

soul game. You know. It's it doesn't like change. It doesn't take kindly to people who who step out of line, even if they mean to improve things or do things for the better. That's part of the reason why these rival golf leagues are are considered anywhere between farcical and another F word. I think there's a there's a certain sense of reluctance to mess with the formula of that

has worked for so long. H Sometimes the Palmer player Nicholas stuff can get a little old because it it is fifty years old, and the oldsters will never give the woods Is in the Michelson's and perhaps even down the road the Mcarroys and the speech the credit they deserve. But that's part of the beauty of the game is that it changes somewhat reluctantly and slowly. And when you come along and try to flip it the game on its here, you're you're probably gonna get slapped upside the

head for it. It's extremely well. So, yeah, I have to say, it's such a pleasure just talking about the old things. I don't know how many listeners are going to really go down this path with us. I don't know, but that that last thing you said, Hawk was so deeply true. I completely agree there word you said, Yeah, I think so. Well, it's it's really fun to relive all this stuff. John. I appreciate your time and your insight,

and uh, this is this has been a pleasure. Um. Before we go, no, no, before we go, I'm gonna give a shout out to our corporate sponsors at par Points, who you know, they've invented this ingenious scoring app and uh. The two founders become friends of Michael and mine. In fact, we've dined to them and Tulsa this evening, and um, it's just it's just a really cool way to as you get back into golf Hawk and you're you're relearning the game, you might, you might, you might pick up

a new trick. Is it does add a different layer of of sort of intrigue. And this thing Hawk par points. I've see these ads on for all these apps and things you can that can keep track of your own game. You know. I well, I'm a little I've got a lot of that old soul in me too. I already told my buddies I'm gonna come back and kick your ass as soon as I'm ready to go, I believe it. We'll try and get you up to date on the new school stuff. But anyway, Johnny than thanks for your time.

Let's make this an ongoing conversation. And uh, Michael Allen as always, it's a blast. Um, this has been a yeah, it's been. It's been good stuff. This has been There has been another Fire Drill podcast. We'll be doing this off and on all week from from Tulsa. We're gonna get Jeff Vogilly back on the line. For at least one more and maybe two and maybe a few more surprised guests. Sure hurt. The other day he's talking about Tiger being the best player at that Melbourne President's Cup

and to that body's falling apart. He's playing the best gain players in the game. But although he's back to the point, he's the only guy who actually really knows how to play golf on that course, you know, of course that good and shape the shots and actually play. It was so cool to hear him talk golf oto. We could talk forever to you might have to, you might run out of tape or whatever. That Yeah, that's it. Oh I think you're right, Yeah, for sure. All right,

Well I'm gonna send the listeners home. But thanks to everyone who's been on this little journey with us. Thanks Allen. Yeah, we'll keep doing this. And all right, put another log on the fire. Nobody hears to get the time