Fire Drill 011: Geoff Ogilvy and Michael Bamberger Preview the PGA

What are here is get the time? Hello? This is Alan Schipknuck back for another Fire Drill podcast. I am joined by an illustrious duo Jeff Ogilvie from all the way from Australia. Michael Bamberger. Gentlemen, thanks for being here. Yeah, no worries. Um So, Jeff, we want to talk about Southern Hills as a venue and you know it's it's a proud course that's hosted a lot of big time tournaments,

but it's gone a pretty through a renovation. What is your feeling about Southern Hills And I'm sure you've looked at all the photos and you have a sense for for the work that Gil Haunts did but what do you think of this as a venue? It's incredible. I mean in um oh seven my main memories, I'm sure both of you guys were the US how hard it was. Um,

perhaps the hottest tournament I've ever played. I mean it was Tiger winning a major in his prime, and it was relatively quiet out there, really remember, because people were dropping like flies in the crowd, and it was outrageously hot. So I think the weather will be much better this week in May. Um. But all in all, I remember loving the course. It's one of the best courses in the world. It's it seems to really reward a guy with a complete game. You've got to move the ball

both ways. It's the grains, tricky, lots of undulation, changes, sidehill lies. I mean sort of got some Augusta type sort of golf involved, you know, now a lot by short grass around the grains it looks like with gil. Um. Yeah, it's a great property, incredible course, and if you look at the winner the role of winners who have won there, it's just only quality players in history. So, um, it should be a good quach, should me it should be

a great tournament, I imagine. Okay, I mean everyone quick second, Jeff. Something that's extraordinary to me about you and some of your during brethren, but not all of them. You can go to a golf course once and remember it forever, Like you know here you are, it's been years since you've been there. It hasn't been years since you've been there two thousand seven. Yeah, okay, how well can you actually remember this course in your mind's eye? You know

what I was thinking about that this week? I remember most of it. I mean I probably can't remember sort of like the little details and stuff, but I kind of read through the holes in my head. Probably can't really remember sort of yardages of holes or really clubs and stuff that I was hitting, but I sort of remember the general sort of shape holes and where they went, the really difficult stuff. I remember how brutally difficult eighteen was, how happy you were to make par up eighteen Um?

Just yeah, I mean, look, it's it was. If I went back there, I would remember every detail when I was there. It's sort of like you have this database in your head, and like when you're away from and you haven't seen it for a while, you sort of have vague memories. But as soon as I drove up the driveway, I would remember more, and I'd get on the range and I remember more, And as sin as you get down the first you remember more. So, yeah,

you're right. We have these sort of filing cabinets in our head that sort of you have all this detail in there, and as soon as it gets presented in front of you, I'd probably start remembering shots I hit in two thousand and seven. Funnily enough, I would think, So, you're right. I think that sort of happened. When you're so involved in what you're doing and you're paying so much attention, you're so intense and what you do, it

burns it a little bit deeper into their memory. Um, So you guys sort of wander around and you're more watching the the shots and the drama that's happening. We're actually trying to, um, sort of play the course really well. So I think we get a bit more invested in actually what's going on on the course. I think that's probably why, Jeff, have you been to Prairie Dunes and another great course here in the Midwest. I haven't. No, I've heard lots of good reports. I mean, Michael Cocking,

my design part one of my design partners. He's he's been talking glowingly. He visited there pretty recently and he really really enjoyed the place. So I think it's, um that's one of the best courses in the Midwest, right, Oh yeah, I mean I think it might be the best course in the United States. I was just there for the first time in the last year, and it's

absolutely monumental golf course and just an incredible test. It was too much golf course from me, but um, it was just it was like Royal Dornick kind of greens and these amazing dunes and just just phenomenal. And where I'm going with this is Perry Maxwell design that he did Southern Hills, and he's a guy who's never really talked about in the pantheon of these these great old architects. Do you have any any any sense for for Maxwell,

any any any inside and into his work? Not really, I mean, obviously, I know Perry Jones is probably his best. I mean, you're probably the first person who's ever said they think Perry Jones is the best course in America. Umbly, Yeah, I have only ever heard great things. I mean, I

think it's an incredible place. It's kind of in a really unlikely place for a great course to um, kind of a little bit in the middle of I wear, and you don't really expect it, and all of a sudden you've got this sort of golf utopia link style golf course in the middle of America, which is pretty interesting. Um. No, but he did a lot of great stuff in Southern Hills is probably a on with Parry Jones. Is two sort of most famous ones. I think, Um, Southern Hills

has had all the Gulf tournaments. Um. And I don't I don't know how much Southern Hills has kind of evolved since those times. Um. But it's such an incredible property. It's got that great undulation and the great it's got such a great piece of property, and it's just it's got a very grand feel about it. Um. And it feels like even we just you're in the clubhouse, it's very it's very important feeling place, you know. Um. And it's it's just a natural venue. It just feels like

a great venue for a big tournament. You alluded to it earlier with the work that Gil Hans has done on Southern Hills, and they really are trying to accentuate the greens and the surrounds, and it doesn't have that long rough framing the greens like a lot of US major championship venues, and the ball is going to run away from the whole if you had a bad shot.

And when when you when you bring short game like that back to a major championship set up, what does that do to the players who are already on edge where it's a big week and it's a challenging venue. But now knowing that you're gonna have to hit all these different shots and you're gonna have to decide what kind of shots hit every time you misagree, how much does that, you know, turn up the volume on the test?

I think a lot. I mean, obviously, the trend for a very long time was to just sort of ring fence the course and really deep, longest rough that you could get away with that sort of ultimately punish every bad shot and reward anything on short grass and punish anything away from that. We've seen it drifting gradually sort of in the last ten fift twenty years um sort of Pinehurst maybe one of the first ones that dip

the toe into changing that sort of style. Um, having more short grass, and we've seen more and more and more of it. It's just it's a it's a more complete test, I mean, funnily enough, I mean outside of tours circles. Most people probably don't really understand this, but there's a lot of pros who don't love chipping off short grass. Um. It's sort of the ultimate test of

a short game. You'll you go from generally a long, rough golf course that we've played traditionally in majors and maybe it's just a normal sort of PG to a set up as long rough. As you get the sixty degree out or you get your the most lofted worge out you can, you can almost pull it out on the fairway when you've missed a ground and walk up because you know that's the club you're gonna hit. You

go short grass one. Like you say, the ball can run and never stop, which is sort of part of the charm of adds to the challenge sort of coming into the greens is that you really have to think where you're landing this too. I really want to land this back near the pin, because if it goes over the back, who knows what it's going to end and

to the short game. You can play any club from realistically any club from three wood two, putter off short grass, I mean maybe even driver, because you can play fourteen clubs around the greens, and that leaves choice, and I sometimes think pros don't really enjoy choice. I think they're like being told, just hit the sixty and get good at this shot. I mean, all of a sudden, they can hit a five iron, they could bump it with a hybrid, they could putter, they could get the sixty out,

they could sort of get the pitching wedge out. They can do all sorts of any all manner of staff. And we see that the Masters every year sort of the sort of confusion and in decision around the greens when they're chipping, and I think whenever you see that, I think it's compelling to watch. I always enjoyed it the most. And in Melbourne golf is generally a short

grass sort of place. Around the greens, you're either in a bunker or short grass, and so we grew up chipping short grass, and I am the other way around. I took a really long time to get used to chipping out of a long rough and hated it. At first and gradually got used to it, and then after a while realized that the long rough is actually easier generally to chip out of than short grass because it's the same sort of shot every single time, whereas the

short grass. Yeah, one, the green isn't ring fenced and so you can't be quite as aggressive into the grain because of where it can go when it misses, and too you're sort of left with these tight little lies that you don't really want to pull too much loft out of, but you're really not used to and we just don't practice bump and runs like they probably in it in days years gone by. So um, I really I think it's just a much more compelling sort of style of golf to watch the best players in the

world player, especially around great greens like Southern hills. I mean, there's slopes and pitch and I'm sure they'll be very fast and there'll be a bounce on them. So usually a sign are usually a setup that will bring the imagination and the great short games out, and you have to be much it's the strategy. It's a knock on effect.

Back up the strategy because you've got to be coming in from the right spot so you don't miss it in the wrong spot, and then you've got to hit your t shirt in into the right spot so you

can hit into the right spot on the green. So it's sort of the short grass around the greens and the firmness and the ability for the course to sort of repel the ball away sort of reverberates all the way back to the tea, which is why the Southern Hills, like a week like this or the Masters can get away with such wide fairways because there's really only sections of those fairways you want to be on if you want to successfully sort of navigate around, if you know how.

A lot of a lot of Turan pros will say, well, I treat the Majors just like any other week. We don't alan and I don't I don't think. I don't think you do. Why do we focus so much on a golf on a golf course when we get to a major? What it is about major venues that eliminate a lot of the field because it takes a certain type of golfing intelligence just to figure out the golf course quickly enough to be able to produce two eighty

year lower by the end of the week. UM A few things there one eye, whether they tell you that or not, I'm pretty confident most players don't treat majors like it's any other way. They might say that UM to sort of try to take some pressure off themselves, but they certainly don't know. I think that's actually not the correct approach. I always enjoyed ramping it up and leveling it up, and like, this is actually why I

play golf. Let's go, you know. I think that's if you're not ready for that, you're not ready to win one, you know. I think you could have need the big show. And I think the guys that win these the guys like Ram and Tiger and um Colin and these guys, they know they're bigger weeks, you know, and it's it's more important to them. UM. Two, I think the golf course gets talked about so much. One because we generally go to really historic, great venues that don't You don't

generally see Southern Hills in UM or Southern Hills level golf. Tom, it's on the PGR. Two. You know, we have Riviera every year, which is great, and you have Pebble, but Pebble is completely different in February than the US open Um. I think they're more interesting venues in general, because the PGA and the U s J and the R and A they pick, They picked venues that do that sort

of have that historic sort of thing. But mostly I think we talked so much about them because there's so much airtime created around majors, and we've just got more to talk about. So we just run out of time talking about players, and we're going to talk about something now. So true. I was telling my kids that I was coming to Oklahoma, like, why on earth are you going to Homa Because there's one really really great golf course there. There's no other reason. And uh, but you're right, I

mean it becomes uh, it's an event. You know, the majors don't get to the Midwest very often, and they don't get to that, you know, Oklahoma except for southern hills. And so not only is the golf course a big time but the atmosphere, you know. I went out there yesterday kind of late afternoon, early evening and Scottie Scheffler was putting on a practice screen by himself and it was encircled by two people. It felt like and uh, you know, that's Monday, this Monday evening. You just don't.

You don't get that kind of action on Monday at at a tour event. But you know, there's a feeling of if you're from this part of the world, this might be the only chance to see these guys for a very long time. You don't. You generally don't get the number one in the world practicing on Monday or either in a normal tour event. I mean, he will generally show up on Wednesday for the pro am rout and then God's flying on Sunday and flying on halls.

They're they're all wake. Everybody rents houses as opposed to the normal hotel for a way. I mean, it's it's just leveled up. Everything's leveled up. That's why, man, there's no way that they's got anybody in the field is really trading this like a normal page a term and they might be trying to, but um, this family out here, there's management out here. They're all that they're all doing the special thing, and um, it's it's just a it's

a big, big wakes. And that's again when the best players in the world are drawing their best and I've been preparing for something that usually creates something really interesting to watch. Alan, just a quick note about your kids and why are you going to Oklahoma? I love this about going to majors, especially if you go to Rochester and and go to the oak Hill Course of the Oakland Hills Course, or or Prairie Dunes or Southern Hills. It's like a hundred years ago there was a concentrated

level of wealth in a quote second rate town. Not true at all, but that's how they might view them socially. The moment, it's like, we're going to show the world that we can do something every bit as well as as as any other city New York or Los Angeles or Chicago. And like like a church building cathedral, it's like we're going to hire the best architect, find the best piece of land and build a golf course. It

is a monument to this game. And every city that had significant wealth in the twenties has the Southern Hills. And uh, it may not be, it may not be long enough to host the US Open or big enough in space, but it has when in there are immense points of pride, and especially when it's a country club.

Even though we are all drawn to golf clubs golf clubs, but the country club is like, we're wealthy and uh and we're showing it off and here's our pool and here's our tennis courts, and here's our clubhouse, and here's our golf course and it's beautiful. Yeah. No, that's a great point. And and you can feel out on the grounds when when you when you arrive at these venues there there is a feeling of pride. And then for a lot of locals, they can't get to Southern Hills

any other week of the year. So then even even if you're a Tulsa resident, you don't have an attachment to the the club, but like you say, you get to go experience it and you might bump into someone you know, and there's there's that whole energy in the air, and it's just it's just so different than than a normal week. But I mean, that's a great point in Michael, that the neighborhood around Southern Hills is extremely stately. I

mean beautiful houses. It really it's kind of has a timeless kind of look, but not big Mickey mansions or that were just built. I mean these places are I have been there for a long time, and so h there there there's a timelessness about about about this venue that's really appealing. Okay, we just got that awkward zoom pause or everyone's waiting for somebody else. It's given the jeffs on the other side of the world. I guess

it's forgivable. So I was looking at your your your playing record in the Major's, Jeff you didn't you didn't play two thousand and one the US Open, but at Southern Hills. But that was such a nutty tournament, and you talk about the pitch of the greens, and in fact, the eighteenth was so severe that the U s J just gave up and said, you know, we're gonna we're gonna bringna mode this a little higher and it's gonna

be slower than the other seventeen greens. Which it's not great in general, but it's really problematic when it's the seventies second hole. And if you remember Mark Brooks, Ratief Goose and Stewart's saying, all kinds of craziness happened there on that last green um and I think they took nine punch between them, and it was just a monumental

cock up. The whole thing. Uh, And it's not really talked about that often when when you go through the the great U. S. G blunders of the twenty one century. But that was a big one. And um, Michael were you were you in at Southern Hills that week? Was that was? I mean, I was in the locker room with Mark Brooks. He was packing up and getting ready to go, and then all of a sudden, you know, the everything, everything flipped there in the last half hour

and he had new life. But um, you know, Ratief Goosen that that was actually one of the great reporting challenges of my career because everyone knew he had been struck by lightning, but no one really knew the details. And so every night I was staying up super late trying to reach people in South Africa because I got Goosen after I think the first round, and he gave me the name of the guy he was playing with that day, but he didn't have any other contact info.

But so I was calling golf clubs and I finally tracked down the dude who was out on the course with Goosen when he was struck by lightning. And I'm still like, you know, I'm still haunted by the details. He said all the clubs in his bag, in Goosen's bag were melded together by the heat, and his clothes had been burned off, and the smell of like singed hair and flesh, and that Goosen had actually swallowed his tongue and was probably gonna die. But just pure happenstance.

There was an actual like doctor in the next fairway who ran over and and kind of recognize what's going on and like with his finger like pride out his tongue and did CPR and um and gooson and Goosen survived and I'll never forget, like three in the morning, like this guy telling me all these details and um, so that it was a memorable we you know in so many different ways. But what are your take? Did you include the tongue reference in your game story? I'm

sure I did? Why would I not? Yeah, I haven't actually gone back and read in a long time, but uh, that was that was one of those you know, that was kind of I guess it was early days the internet, but it was. I was just making phone calls to every golf club and that part of South Africa. I finally tracked this guy down. It was so satisfying, and um, you know, I don't think we're chief scus. Really he's in the Hall of Fame, but I'm not. I'm not

sure he's ever quite gotten his due. But that was true. You know, to to three put the last hole to potentially boot away the the the US Open on Sunday afternoon, and then have the fortitude to come back and win in a playoff, and um, pretty incredible. What are your memories from that week, Michael? I remember the intensity and uh and I remember being overwhelmed by the golf course and how different the golf course is. I think I've

been there twice before for Tour championships. I know once, and I think, do you think they had to Tour champions ships there? Um, I've been there before. But to Jeff's point earlier, it's amazing to what degree Championship committee came jigger a golf course to get it just right for a major championship, and it was very, very, very different. And it's Jeff may Well. Jeff was making the point earlier. Pebble Beach in February and Pebble Beach in June. It's

almost like two different courses. And uh so so it's all very very interesting. Um and Retief, his great uh Retief is a real Hall of Famer, and I agree with that he uh he he doesn't get his due. And with with with all that in mind, I was gonna ask Jeff this question. When you look at this week, do you just say, we always hear the phrase he's a U s Open player, like like you are, like Herd of Strange was, like Indian North was, like Tiger

of course was Big Jack Hogan. Do you view this week as, oh, a US Open winner, a US Open type player is going to win this week? Or is it a different kettle official? To some degree, I think a really good player will win. Uh, it's of course, it just requires all the shots. I mean, I think

it's not quite traditional US Open this week, clearly. I mean I think you know one, it must have been twenty yards wide and well pretty narrow and fast, and I don't think I mean, you hit the US G a little bit there, which they need to hit every

now and then on the eighth green there. But they don't think they had a choice, right, I mean, the mistake probably was made to not fix the picture of the green two years before the tournament I mean, if it's eight degrees or eight percent or whatever this green is and you you just can't have greens at thirteen. You know, you just can't just not going to work.

So maybe they should have had all the greens a bit slower that week to match them all up with what they had to have eighteen, or to fix de green, or to chill the green out if you like, a couple of years before. But um, you create a drama and a memorable US Open. So I don't know, we mess up or genius, you know, one or the other. The and my other memory from the eighteenth Green was just Tiger Horse doing out his part for sixty two and oh seven. That was pretty amazing. But anyway, I think, look,

I think a great player wins. I think anytime you have undulation, you have side slopes eating upside slopes, and you have requirement hit shape both ways, and you have the short game test you have there, it's going to be one of those sort of complete major winner sort of games. You know, it's going to be Mr Morico or Speed. It's probably a great course for Jordan. At the moment, I would have thought it's fantastic around the greens um, Tiger, clearly it would be a magic for

Tiger and his prime. Hopefully you can sort of bring some of that sort of action. But yeah, it'll be one of those it will be one of the big dogs, you would think, because just historically Southern Hills has done that. And it does that because it all the IT asks questions that maybe not everybody has all the answers to, you know, and only really the top sort of ten or fifteen or so guys probably have all those answers. And um, obviously everyone in the IT will can probably win.

But generally I have a seventy two holes sort of the crame roses to the top of a plaice like this. Yeah, that Tiger and oh seven, that was really uh one of his peaks. You know, he we know what he did turn the century. But you know, Hankaney, Steve Williams, they've often contended, and Hanks has he's he's not unbiased observer, but Steve Williams is and he's often said that, you know the Tiger oh six or seven oh eight, that

that was actually the best calf you ever played. And I one thing we haven't talked about is that first tea shot is so majestic. You know, it's really like the highest point on the golf course and everything just just falls away from you. I remember being out there on Sunday and, Um, Tiger just hit a bullet down that first ferry, but he held the pose a little extra long and it was almost like he was bronzed, you know, like he was creating his own statue in

the in real time. And there's certain shots that he's hit throughout his career. I was, I was standing right there and that one just just sticks out and it was it was a phenomenal for four mints, from from start to fitness. Um, you said Tiger in his prime, obviously he had. He was a little more supple, he had a little more speed. But having observed him around around AUGUSTA this year, Jeff, do you think Tiger still has the short game, still has the hands that that

he did back then? I mean, have you seen a difference in just the finesse shots. I don't know if we saw enough for the Masters to know that, but I think he looked pretty good. Um, he had some incredible short shots the Masters. I think the short stuff, he's probably been able to practice it for a lot longer like he's but he would have got back to that sooner. Um. But you're right, oh one, that sort of turning the century Tiger was just sort of perfection

if you like. Um that Oh seven was a beautiful guy. He was playing a more attractive version of golf. You know, you were shaping the ball a long way and really sort of crafting his way around the course in a different way. And it wasn't beautiful gay to watch it, oh seven, You're right, Um, I'm sure he has the short game shots and in um in some respects major championships and the really big moments are a bit like riding a bike for some For someone like Tiger, you know,

it'll all come back, even if he's not. Maybe it's quite a sharp and chipping around the green back at home he gets Southern hills, will be inspired and the pressure and we already him in nineteen Obviously it's a different Tiger now that in nineteen. Um, he gets to that back nine of the Masters, and he just looked like the guy who knew how to win a major, you know, out of everyone else in the thing. And I think that'll all come that all comes back, And if you can sort of, Um, it's quite the walk

around southern hills. It's not just it's not a it's not a flat course. Um. So, and he says he's feeling a lot better and he's a lot fitter, and

he's a bit stronger. So, um, if his body hangs up, he absolutely he looks like he's got all the shots that he needs, you know, but I mean mental mental sort of prowess or strength was always has always been his sort of best attribute, if you like, or he's sort of where he beats everybody else, I mean everybody, and lots of guys hit good shots, but he seems to do it at the right time and at the right moments, and that can often go with how you feel, you know. We saw at the Masters when he started

getting tired, it got a little harder for him. When you get tired, your mental game isn't as strong. And he was always the fittest guy on tour generally when he was at his best. So I think the physical parts will be there with the shots. You know, it's it's again. Has he had enough time to walk enough golf course, walking off golf holes and just sort of be fully fit and healthy at the end, like coming through eighteen holes every day and can he get ready

for next tomorrow? And canna get ready for the next day. It seemed like at the Masters, you certainly had the golf game, but it got harder and harder during the week as he got tirer. I think, so hopefully he's got another six weeks under his belt of fitness and training and recovery in rahab and um not raason why he can't hit all the shots he used to. And

that was that's that was amazing. Jeff analysis of Tiger, And I've always had this feeling about Tiger and oh seven, and Jeff particularly if you could just tell me if this might be true or not. They always say, you know, the tour player places one shot at a time, hit the ball, chase it played again, Tiger oh seven Southern Hills. I thought it was one of the greatest performances I've

ever seen by a golfer. And I felt like he saw the whole golf course as a chessboard, and he knew ahead of time exactly how the whole thing would play out, and that if he did his thing, even though he was a great scoreboard watcher, if he did his thing, it really didn't matter what Unbles said because he was better than everybody else. And if he did his thing over the hole, the seventy two holes and the whole you know, tunnic of property, whatever it is,

he'll win. Uh. And it almost simply like the game almost looked simple because of that. But that's in my head. I don't know if if a great player could would actually ever that way. But yeah, but he thoughts about that. He's certainly he knew what he was doing and he played. Um. That's what, of course, like Southern Hills does and it allows the best player to show why he's the best.

And I think it when he gets to historically, whenever he got to venues or has got the venues like Southern Hills, it's he seems more inspired to sort of show off. Um. The most recent version was I think, um, Royal Melbourne last in the two thousand nineteen Presidents Cup and he just put on a clinic of how to play a golf course like that and he was the best of the twenty four players by a long way.

Because it just he's just inspired to kind of show off and go guys, no, no, no, no, this is actually, how you play golf on a golf course like this. Just watched this for a minute, you know, and Southern Hills will do that, and like you O seven, clearly

it had that. It was hot, it was a battle of attrition in a lot of ways on a golf course that demanded all the shots, and it was just that was the sort of thing that just lit all of his lights up, and it's like, here we go, this is me And at the end of the day, a professional golfer um is a show off. Fundamentally, we want to show everybody that we're better than I'm better than you, and come watch because I'm better than all these guys. And Tiger has been the biggest show off

of the lot. And that's the platform. You know, that's he's got the platform at a place like that to do that. Yeah, so I think your analysis is right. I don't know whether he knows he's going to win if he plays, That's the only part I'm not sure. I've never been inside his head, um, but I think he would have gone there certainly and oh seven knowing he was playing well, thinking this is a great opportunity to win another major. Because of course I just love

playing it. Let's say that, Yeah, I love that. That reminds us something that I heard Patrick Harington say going back to CARNEISTI when you beat Sergio Garcia and he had he was short over the green, he was he was kind of making a mess of the hole too, and he had like maybe a forty or fifty yard

pitch that he left himself with. And of course there's that that incredible grand stand you always have on the last hole at the Open, and he was running through his options and what kind of shot to hit, and he wound up, you know, hitting the low skipper. It looks like it's going to go way past the flag and then maybe on the third bounce it just stops dead.

And he said he wanted to play that shot because he knew the crowd was going to be like, oh no, he's hit it too hard and oh hit the brakes and and you know that was the that was the

reaction from the crowd. And I always thought, you know, even with the opening, the balance is exactly what you're saying, Jeff, Like, he chose a shot that was gonna be a little dramatic and kind of fun to play, and when you get people going, and I'm sure that on some level that that helped him focus on on the task at hand even more because it's like, well, if I screw this up, it's really gonna scold over the green or whatever. So he was You don't think about the showmanship aspect,

but it's definitely a part of being a performer. It's a great insane Jeff, when you talk about that showoff aspect. Um, of course it's the other players and their caddies because they're super knowledgeable about golf. But is it also the spectators and the TV audience or do you think that doesn't? Does that factor in or or not? Do you think I don't think it's really like particularly aimed at anybody.

I mean, I just think it's it's almost showing off to yourself as well a little bit, you know, like it's um, certainly the other players. If I say from me, Um, if I impressed the crowd, that's cool, it's nice and it's fun, you know all that. But if you impress some other players, um, that's really good. Some of the

caddies are fun to impress. I mean, I remember Squirrel was my caddy for a long time, and I go I really respected um his opinion on golf, and every now and then I would hit a shot that was really really good and you would just get this grown it's like, oh, like it was just you're just like, oh wow, that was my happiest moment, Like if I ever got the little grown out of him, Like as soon as I bully, oh, that's the one, it was just like, yeah, I did my job. That actually made

me happier than almost anything. So I think it's general, but I think there's certain players. I mean, if you go and if you played potographer saying you hit a shot and you got a little nod in a little wink, It's like that was a pretty nice moment, you know what I mean. It's like to Toto impress the guys who are that impress you. You know. I think it's

kind of fun. Yeah, have you ever have you ever seen that clip of Lee Trevino playing with Sevy is one of the years at Sevy won the Open and he's he's on this down slope in the faraway and he scorches this long iron that never leaves the flag and Trevino is like pure class baby, and U that's exactly what you're talking about. I mean, how good did that field? Not only to pull off the shop, then have Lee Trevino of all people be in your ear about it. Like, I love that clip for so many reasons.

That's like one of the best clips on the internet. Because it's on five at the Old Course. I'm pretty sure touch a glass baby, And he says, as soon as he hits the ball and it's the five and it lands in a little dip and it runs up on the green, it's not only good because I've had good Sevy shot. Is it's so good because of Trevino's knowledge as soon as he makes contact that he knows that that's as good ash And almost no one's got that shot. Like the ball is not even halfway there,

and Trevino knows it's perfect. I mean it's perfect on every level. That clip. It's brilliant. Yeah, Yeah, I love that. You know that, Jeff, that's so great. That is really great. With that in mind, like when you hit a perfect shot, but it does some weird thing, you know, it just doesn't bounce the way its supposed that even though you've done everything you can do, how do you prevent yourself from saying m F really loud or something, because you've got to be so mad at that point because you've

done everything right and you haven't gotten the result. Yeah, I mean, look, it's frustrating, but if you've actually hit a perfect one and it gets unlucky, it's not a complete I'd rather do that than just hit an awful shot. You know, at least I had a perfect shot. At least I had the feeling of hitting a good shot. I mean, half of it is just golf so much. I think sometimes it's just you just chasing that great

feeling of the great shot. And if you have the great feeling of the great shot and if you don't get the result, that's pretty infuriating. But at least you hit the great shot and you have the great feeling for a second while the ball was in the air, you know, or you hit that incredible part that you know is in all the way and it just that's some crazy lip out or burns the edge, or it spins off the front of the green, or it's pretty frustrating, but it's part of it. I mean, I guess it's

part of golf. It's what It's why the ones that do come off for so rewarding because they very rarely, do you know. I was playing the other night. It happened to be an old US open course. I was playing by myself, and I had a good drive and had a good second shot and it was a skip up shot there and I'm like, that's perfect, and it skips up and it skips up the hill and it skips a right past the flag into the rough over the green and I always lost it. And I'm playing

by myself for nothing. It's funny, though, to be honest, when you're really on and you're really playing well. I don't think I ever had a shot where I made contact and you're right that it wasn't right, Like you just know it's right, you can you just know it's I mean, maybe it hits the pit. I mean there's those rats, you see those ones a tori that flying the whole in the last tile, it's the pen and it goes to the water and stuff, and that that's different.

I've never had one of those. But generally there's this feeling that doesn't come very often, especially when you're on. As soon as I would make contact, I knew it was good, and I was like, it just it almost never isn't because you're just so in touch at that time when you're playing like that looks like Tiger's little club spin. You know, you can tell when you watch a great player when he's playing well as soon as he makes contact, you know, watching the TV, that you

hit it close. You just know you can just see the look in his eye and he's gait and his demeanor and just the way holds his follow through or whatever it is. Um we generally know, not not when we're playing average, but when you're playing well, you know, you know it's if it's if you if generally, if you feel like it's good, it usually ends up pretty good and drop really quickly, really quickly. Hearing Jeff talk about golf is an absolute total illustration of why we

love golf so much. I have never heard ensuring pro talk about tigers twirl and what it means to Tiger internally and what then we can get out of it. And it just shows you that golf and we love a lot of different sports among the three of us, but there's actually nothing like golf. That was just so beautiful. I loved hearing that. Yeah, no, I agree, what I was gonna say about you know, the early early Club Tworld And as you say, Jeff, you can usually tell

when a player thinks he's stiffed it. But it's an outdoor game and you can get a gust of air or or the you know, there's there's so many ambient things that that maybe could could affect the outcome, and yet they're always right about it like that. That's what amazed me. You see in the NBA, you know there's some you know Nick Nick Young thinks he switched to three point, he turns around to the crowd and it

rims out and but um, you know that's a controlled environment. Uh. That does amaze me, the um the accuracy of of the Uckey Club Tworld because rarely does the guy do that and then you know it doesn't work out. But there's there's so many factors. You know, you can give you a firmer green, you can get a bad balance, you could could be a tell. I promise you you can tell. Yeah, well that's a difference between Jeff and us. Michael,

he knows that we're just hoping well. Differences about fifty thousand more balls and my shot golf shots in my life and you guys. Probably. Yeah, that's fair, Jeff. And you notice the elegant pronunciation that that Alan gives the word ambient. He has it his ambiance and Gil Hands he has his haunts. Uh, it's an ambient. People from Madelaide and Australia spake like that. Oh how do you how do you say Gil's surname hands? Yeah? I do, yeah, Gil Hands. There's a little bit of an Australian age,

Tommy at gil Hands an ambient My bad? No no, no, no, no, no. I like it sounds much more elegant. Yeah. Well, most people think I sound like I'm Stone because I'm cal forign you. So I'll take that. Um, you mean you're not. I mean I'm not deliver you to say Michael, but it is am here in Tulsa. So this is a a quasi you know, preview of of this PG Championship. Should should we hazard any guesses about who's going to win? Or is that just totally boring and we want to

transcend the conventions of this medium? What do you what do you guys? Think? It's up to you guys. I mean I sort of gave you my speel. I think it'll be one of the big dogs at the moment. I mean, I'll I think Jordan's a good chance. I think he'll engage him. It's in them, it's in his in neck of the woods, you know, at least Mary region of the country. Short criss around the grant will help him. Um, dj has got to play well. So and surely you know one of these things he can't.

He can't keep not like being up there in a major as good as he is, John Rame fantastic. He'll love the short game. Yea, Um, that's my sort of there you go, there my three he picks. I want to ask about Scotty Schefflers were we touched on earlier, Like he played so many beautiful short game shots at Augusta National, and um, he loves to move the ball. It just it seems like a perfect venue for him. Yet again, like can you out somewhart yourself? Like the

guys playing phenomenal golf. He's in a habit of winning. He's he's met every challenge, Like he's such an obvious choice, But how how can you keep going back? The same guy or just the law of average is eventually gonna catch up and he's gonna have a little down period, like, I guess, how how long can good for him? Last? Jeff, I guess that's my question. The look and the only reason your hand said right on paper, Scotty cheff it looks like the favorite number in the world. It's again,

it's a space neck of the woods. That's in Chefflis Neck of the Woods too, Right, He's going to play really well on the way and if it gets windy, he's going to play well in that sort of area in the country. You would think. The only reason I wouldn't pick game is because at some point you can't keep winning rush the lower of averages. Yeah, but yeah, he looks great. He'sbviously confident and so he's he's so much better every time you say him play than almost

the previous time you saw him play. You know, he seems to be improving in front of you. Or maybe it's just that we just give him more respect every time you say him play. Um, maybe he's always looked that great. We didn't have eyes for it, you know. Um, But yeah, fantastic, you know. And I sorry with a form thing, I had the form, I don't know, I don't know. I never had form like Scotti Cheffer, so I thought, yeah, I saw you curiously scribbling, Michael, were

you writing down a name for that? I was just thinking about No, no, I was just thinking about when unlikely guys when majors, And I just quickly noted that now they happened. All the Open winners gen Van Developments, Hot Hamilton and Ben Curtis, um, no one was talking about them going to the week except for maybe their families. But they were great for that week. They were as

great as anybody. Well, they were greater than anybody for that week, and then they might have gotten look at the draw for some because oh, I said, Jean Vanderbilt famously did not win his Open, but he did play great and at the end of the really, at the end of seventy two holes, if you you know, you are the co medalist. I mean there's a greatness to

that as well. But I guess the point is that when you've got a field as deep as this field, with all due respect to the you know, to the obvious names, I think that I think the reason I don't really participate in this sort of thing is the joy of the things that see, really, who is going to do it? And I don't really find out much joy in trying to make a wild guest as to who it is said, when you've got a hundred players in the field, all of whom are capable of shooting

whatever the number is, let's called to seventy maybe who knows. Uh, it's just part of the greatness of a real major championship that any of those uh could do it. Yeah, I love that. And can we talk about Jean Vandervelt's put for triple bogey that he made to get into the playoffs like little curling, like six or eight footer, It's got to be one of the greatest puts in calf history. He has just lit himself on fire in front of the world and he has his deer or

die butt and somehow he made it. I always marvel at that, Like after all the just to your point, it's bizarre that I wrote Jean Vandeveld as a guy who won an open because like sort of in my mind, he won an open um. Now maybe it's my great friendship, you know with Mike Donald, that's you know, that shapes that to some degree. But I do feel like if if you're the medalist or one of the Medals as

a seventy holes. After that, it's sort of a crapshoot. Now, it wasn't a crap shoot back in the day when the USA had a thirty six whole playoff, because then after thirties SI sols. Yeah, the better guys gonna win. But you know well that they used to be eighteen holes spin Anyway, I digress wildly here. Can I just get to one point about you know jeff'son earlier. You know, I've never spent a second inside Tiger Woods his head.

Something about Scheffler We can only guess at this, but at some point, after you've achieved what you've achieved like Scheffler has and what and what Jeff did at Wingfoot, external forces are going to get in your head and expectations will go up and all those cliches, and then the question really becomes who you are inside? Can you keep them at bay so that you can really truly stay true to the thing that's so that's so important

to you. And from what I've seen a chef and we don't really know, but what what we do you know, quote judge these people, and we see him in press conferences in the rest he seems like a guy who actually can keep it at bay Um and keep it going for Well, that doesn't mean he's gonna win, but it does think I do think it's gonna mean he's not going to screw up through seventy two holes. And

then how contempt? Yeah, can you speak to that Jeff about after you win a major and he's a little bit younger than you were, but comparable really, Like, how does it turn your world upside down? From just the demands, the endorsements, everything that goes into it, and then and that that feeling when you show up like, yeah, you should make it should be less pressure. I've done it. I know I can do it. But also you feel that now I have to live up to this new standard.

So it kind of cuts both way. How how did winning the Open kind of turn your your your world upside down? Yeah? It does do, but it does go both ways. I mean, I think I think you can handle the attention and the the extras pretty quickly. I mean, the management teams around us at those points, I mean a pretty sound I mean, the tours and the tournaments do a great job, but sort of I mean, you know how much harder it is to start for you two guys to get towards number one in the world.

So and it was when they were number ten in the world. You know, they get um fairly well protected and you get you sort of get looked after, and I think you kind of scotty sort of you've seen other players go through it, so you've sort of got a small idea of what's going to happen. I mean,

it's sort of overwhelming and how big it was. And I took three or four weeks off, and then my next time it was like, um, you know, six, And when I got there, it was I expected big press attention and blah blah blah, and that was actually quite It wasn't so bad because they opens the Open and that the Digger was all the one they were talking about.

So I had a bigger press confidence that I normally would have the Open, But then it was kind of fact to being the Open, you know, because it's a bigger tournament than the guy who won the last major. You know. Um, I think I found it harder at the normal little tournaments, just normal tournaments. I found it harder, you know, when you're maybe the only recent major champion

in the field. And you get all the attention, and um, the one thing that really struck me the most was just the copious amount of autographs that you start start signing in that the ebayers who start putting all the magazines under the ropes and stuff you have to side of stuff that for me, I found Tuesdays and Wednesdays

a lot harder than before. I used to be able to do it Tuesday and Wednesday sort of under the radar and have a really peaceful sort of practice round on a Tuesday and Wednesday, and that didn't happen anymore, and I found that sort of difficult for Meum. And as far as the playing, I think, um, I think it goes, it does. It cuts both ways. I think your self expectations up, but that always makes it challenging.

You know, Um, it's a good thing expectation, but like the belief that you know you can do it and you're one of the only probably ten or fifteen guys maybe in the field at that point of one a

major Like, it's nice. It's a nice feeling. And you know, if you get sort of coming down the stretch or you get into mixed on Saturday and Sunday, that you're going to be in a better shape than the guys who haven't won a major, you know, But it goes the other way, because you do if you don't have a very good first round or you're sort of struggling and start beating yourself up saying I'm better. There's I'm

supposed to be winning this. They're gonna ask me why I'm not playing very well today and all that sort of stuff. So I think there's positive to negatives. I think there's way more positive than negatives. Scotty seems like a pretty um grounded sort of guys. He seems like the sort of guy who's going to handle it um. So I think you'll be fine. I think there's a lot of guys that desire can change a little bit. You know that We've seen a lot of times that

it probably does. It seems like it's going to happen with Scottie. But a guy win a major and that will be almost the last time and he ever wins, he's had an unbelievable turn or fifteen year run, wins a major and then it's kind of done. Because, like I mean, Deval was sort of the one you would look at. It was the best player in the world for four or five years, and then Bang wins, when I was like, what do I do now, you know?

And then there's other guys who win one, like Jordan or something, and they look like they try harder the next time, and then the next time they try harder again, and they try harder again, and they look like they're more and more into it. So time will tell with Scottie, but I think it's it's probably different for every guy. Um it's certainly he's in a whole new stratosphere. I mean, you win the Masters, that's kind of the highest profile

major possible, was the first one of the year. It gets the most attention and gets another one in the world the same sort of time. I mean, he's got a fair bit going on and his sort of head probably playing golf, probably a little bit less peaceful in his head than it was before. Time will tell. I think everybody handles it differently. I think some guys like thrive in that sort of environment and situation. I think some God sort of I don't really love it, and

there's sort of everything in between. Um So I don't think there's any set rules. Really. I love that well, this is has always been been a fun conversation. Um, we're going to do this again, definitely, uh Sunday night after we have a winner, and we'll see how all these these themes have played out, Michael and any final thoughts before we send the reader's home. Well, listeners, listeners, excuse me, uh no, just the joy of hearing Jeff all will be talking about golf is a new pleasure

of my life. So thank you for this. Jeff, Yeah, I agree with that. Uh all right, before we go, well, we'll tip our caps to our our corporate supporters at at Part Points who helped keep the lights on here at the fire Pit Collective so we can do fun things like like this podcast. We've talked about Part Points before, but it's a very ingenious little scoring app that would encourage all of you guys to check out. Um, this

is Alan Schipnuk for Michael Bamberger Jeff Ogilvie. This is another fire Drill podcast and we'll be coming to you all week from from Tulsa and Melbourne and points in between. So thanks for listening. Put another log on the fire are we here? Is getting time