Fire Drill 010: Show Me The Money

back for another Fire Drill podcast from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Delighted to be joined by Michael Bamberger, who just dropped his first big story on fire Pick like the dot com and everyone's talking about it and it's just a taste of what's to come. We're super excited about that. Michael, say hello, so they know your voice. Thank you very much. Indeed, and we have with us another wingman, the Jerry McGuire of the golf agenting business. Mac barne Art straight out

of Sea Island. Mac, thanks for being hey. Thanks a great to be here. Hey, Michael, So we wanted to talk about the business of professional golf at this very chaotic moment, and Michael, I have touched on a little bit, but we really value your insight Matt because you've you've been in the boardrooms and the back rooms and you know where a lot of the bodies are buried, mostly metaphorically,

but maybe not. And uh, how would you describe where the game is right now with the battle between the tour, the Saudias and everything else that's swirling around. Well, I mean, obviously, we've never seen anything like this. We've never seen a player polarizes, you know, as phil Um losing sponsors over comments. We we haven't seen that. We've seen you know, some guys lose sponsorships over things, So we haven't seen any

thing like that yet. We're we've never seen where a decision a guy can make, the worry he's gonna play, could affect his off course endorsement, earning opportunities, and so all that stuff to be weighed in. Um, but nobody knows, right, And you know I've said all along that at the PGA Tour, at the first announcement of the Live Golf or you know, the premier had said, look, guys, we're

we've been doing us a long time. We've give billions and charity, we've we've provided a great opportunity to make a living with a great retirement plan. You know, we'd really like you to play with us. We've done it, you know, we provide great courses and all these things, and left it at that. I would have said, hey, bravo, here we go. Um. The minute that they kind of started finding money, just kind of try to compete with money. UM,

open my eyes that Wait a minute. You know, I thought they'd probably be doing everything that they should have done. And did they think that? And all of a sudden did they think they weren't? Um? And that's the first time that I went like that kind of made me think. I've always thought the tour been great. I was representing golfers to where if you were if you made a million dollars in a year old course. I mean, I think Curtis Strange did it right and it was an

amazing thing. And now guys you've never heard of and couldn't spot if they were signed make more than a million, so credible opportunity. Mat kind of just get you at one point real quick, because I want to make sure that our listeners understood it. Are you saying that are in your view based on what you just said, did Monaghan miscalculate by raising the stakes and trying to match the Saudis with money as an opening salvo. If you had been his concicularity, would you have not recommended that?

I wouldn't have recommended it. And again, I don't want to just I don't want to question. Jay's a great friend and really good at what he does. But now I just I just always thought the tour is doing a great job. I've watched the purses rise amazing levels. And I know what other things they provide, you know, little things you don't know about courtesy cars, stake care. The retirement plan is off the charts. Um. The golf course is the set up in the golf course, of

the rules officials. All of things that done has gotten better since I've busines business. Uh, it's every year. Um. If they had not flinched, I don't I wouldn't have thought twice about it. I just said, well, you know, competition people got to do what they gotta do. The minute they said, wait a minute, and here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do this, it kind of made me think that they were unsure if they were doing everything. And that's our criticism, and just that's the way I

took it. Well, and even just to put a finer point, on that. I mean, basically, the players are getting a hundred million dollars more this year than they were last year that they bumped up the p I P the players Championship purs they institute a couple of new bonus programs. Uh, they're twenty million dollars. Overall, purses went up substantially. So it's true you would think the players would have been overjoyed.

Look at all this money. They turn the spigot on, But then, well, why were they not giving it to us in the first place? And that's been a bedrock complaint from a lot of the players, is there's not the transparency. They want to know where is the money going and why are we not getting more of it? And so, so it's your point, mag because like I'm sure Jay moonha thought one was going to be ecstatic, like, here's a hundred million dollars for you guys to play for.

But it did in some ways support the case of Phil and others who have been saying, listen, where is the money going? Opening the books? We need to see the books and so but in that scenario, it feels like like the commissioner was kind of damned if if he does and damn age, he does it because he's got to He's got to compete somehow, right. I mean, I think the PGA Tour is doing a great job competing. I haven't seen anything that they have to change, you know.

I I would have looked at I mean this again and go back to my personal opinion. I represent golfers that you know, we're just coming out of college all way up to guys that are on the Champions Tour. And the biggest concern I have now is when the Hogan Tour came out in the late eighties or early nineties, UM, and the last storty some years, the amount of competitive golfers in the world now compared to them is playing opportunities. I would rather have that extra money placed onto maybe

make the corner for a little more viable financially. And then I would have even said, kind of like baseball, I would have come up with a you know, a double a another league. UM, rushing kids, I guess I get the PGA Tour. You rushing kids out of college on the tour, UM giving them opportunities based on what they do an amateur golf. UM. I would rather Why wouldn't you just have a rookie league. Why wouldn't you just have another twenty series instead of a cute school twenty.

You know, if you've got the money to do that then and then provide all the news stars a chance to come out people. I don't think people realize the expense of playing for professional golf. I mean it's a it's an eight hundred thousand dollar year right out of the bat um. You know, the you know the travel. And I'll give an example. You know, a kid comes out of college in June and he can't do anything. I mean, he can get some spots or maybe, but essentially he's got to go to HU school and I

think that's fifty. Um. You've got to go play three stages of Q school at different times, hoping you don't get a stomach bug at the wrong time, hoping that you know, things go well. And you do that, and now you can get on the corn Ferry Tour and now you're not gonna make money. I mean you're gonna spend a lot of money and then you can you can work your way onto the PGA Tour. And you know, these kids have been spending money since they're ten years old.

Tigers old investing money, um, and how many good players run out of money before they can have a chance to compete. That's the big thing for my my position, and so you know, to live golf. There's playing opportunities for young people. Hey, I'm fine if there's playing opportunities on Asian Tour, European Tour. I'm looking for the young guys coming up. And I would be the same if I was a tour I would be looking at my future stars along with my current stars. Mac. You you've

told us all of me both. I'm sure when we've gotten together that your job often is holding the hand of the father of the of the young player who is about to turn pro. And the question is always the same. You know, they're talking to you, and they're talking to this guy and that guy. What can you guarantee my son? And the short answer is nothing. But let's say let's say some kid is the runner up in the in the US a M. Now he's a name, he's gonna play, he's just played his way into the Masters,

and that kids getting recruited by liv Golf. Here's a guaranteed million your first year playing professional, and probably a lot more than that. Versus the crapshoot of what you just described. What are you going to advise to that kid? Oh gosh, um, I mean, I'm you know, I have to provide opportunities. That's my job is to provide opportunities. I don't make decisions for players, but i'd have to lay it out. I said, here's a point a Um, being a runner up in US Amateur, you're probably going

to get a few starts on the PGA Tour. Okay um. And and then you know you've got to get ready to perform. So you're gonna be playing in some you know, I'm gonna use the word g Pro, which is a nice little mini tour series and a friend of mine runs, and you know you're gonna be playing some pretty rough golf courses, stand some pretty rough neighborhoods. And then we're gonna go to Q school for three three year of

her sections to go play the corner farry for another year. Um, if you finished last in this event, in every event, you're gonna make a million dollars. I mean, whether I give them advice or not, I know what they're gonna do. There's not one person that's gonna knock go um and you could. I don't know how you could blame them. Um. I mean, really, people don't realize how many more good players there are there. It used to be. I mean

I went and watch the SEC's at Island here. They used to be there'd be one or two players on a college team, but you would look at and say, man, that guy's got it. And now every guy on that range, all five look like they can play the tour, swings, power, all these things and there, and you just multiply that by the world. Where are these guys playing golf? Um? So I don't know, I know, I just I do

you know you? I use baseball analogies a lot. The major leagues don't sign a kid out of college and say, hey, you're not ready for Triple A and you're not ready for the majors, so go find you kind of a sandlot league to go play in and get prepared. Maybe come back next year. I mean they send them the rookie ball and then they send them to single A, Double A. I mean, you take that talent and you let it mature. But I mean it is a it's it's a crapshoot getting out there. On this tour. I

mean it's tough. And again people say, well, if you're good enough, you'll get there. And and I'll just add one thing, if you're good enough and have enough money, you'll get there. But everybody doesn't have two or three or four dollars to sustain that livelihood. And so that's that's what I would love. I would if you said, hey,

what would rob Golf do for me? Hey? Man, if they're going to build a you know, a tour for people to play until they can, you know, build their way up to the PGA Tour, how could I argue with that? Well? I was just gonna ask, I mean, what is the role of say, the PGA Tour or any or the European Tour or any of these these established big league circuits. Do they have an obligation and a duty to to create a system for the young players? Okay, I don't think it's an obligation. I would think it

would be a necessity in order to have future stars. Um, I mean you would want to. I mean three weeks ACU school certainly doesn't prove anything. I represented Bratt Senecker. I don't think he made it through a second stage he worked his way through Monday qualifiers, got through you know, I think it was the web dot com at the time,

and moved his way up. Um, if the current system was in state when Ricky Fowler turned pro, his first year would have been on the corner for you lost a whole year Ricky Fowler, and who would have want I mean, he was on the Ryder Cup. I think kind of like as a rookie. UM. So, I don't think they have a responsibility to do anything except put on their events and say, you know, whoever qualifies gets in here. But I would think from their their point, it would be a necessity to do it to make

sure that we capture all the young talent. And that's always been my thought process on you know, the Live Golf Tour. You know, I looked at it as like, I mean, if they take the older guys, and I mean they choose to play, it's great, But what if they decided to go after the top twenty kids coming out of college everything. I mean not you know, if they built a tour underneath Live Tour. I'm not saying, but that would that would be alarming to me if

I was running an organization. Yeah, that's interesting. Uh. You know, Michael and I have spent a lot of time talking and thinking and writing about some some of the complicated issues around this emergence of of of the Saudi Tour, and um, you know, Michael just dropped a huge story that they got that brings in everyone from Donald Trump to Greg Norman to Phil Nicholson and Jack Nicholas and everyone's had to to wrestle with us on some level.

But you you talked to a lot of players. I mean, I feel like that maybe the players aren't as tortured about this like their professional golfers. By definition, they played golf for money and they're gonna go where the money is and where the opportunity is. And am I right about that? That that maybe taking the broad stroke of professional golf. They just they don't really see what what all the controversies about it. I mean, we you know, if they call it the salary Tour, I mean that's

kind of been highlighted a lot. I know, I've never had a golfer asked me, I'm going to do this, but where is the money coming from? I don't know if I've ever I'm not going to be responsible for this money's coming from wherever. I mean, if you you know, if you're certain, people may say I don't like gambling, but you know, casino offers enough money they'll go. Now they grow up playing looking to play for money. And

you know, and and this so Mady sound bad. But most people kids sitting around in the pudding Green that are pretending to win a tournament. It's probably the Masters, maybe the US Open, maybe the British, maybe the PGA. They're not sitting around saying I'm gonna win the whatever,

Just name a tournament, right, yeah, St Jude. Now, do they want to get wealthy playing golf, Yes, But I think everybody's perspective of the guys that I talked to, the perspective all changes with how much money they have in the bank. I mean, if the guy's got fifty million in the bank, he can afford to say, you know,

I'm doing this. And if a guy's got you know, three hundred thousand in the bank, he's thirty six years old, his putting strokes going a little bit, he's got enough name power to maybe do something, He's going to go the other way. It's going to be driven by financials um and I hate it in the sense that it's going to look at look, they would be looked at

or ostracized and maybe lose corporate endorsements. I mean, I'm a little supprised to hear you say that, Mac, because I think that the kid, the kid gets into golf because you know, like the kid runs for a student government in high school. They want the stature, They want, you know, the better date. Uh, they want people to look at It's like you know your client and and uh, you know golfer that we all love, Lucas Clever. What was the greatest moment about winning the US Open? It

was Wednesday of Hartford. Everybody on the practice he is looking at him different. Um. So I would have thought that that may be as a as a manager in an agent, someone who's developing young talent, you can say to the kid, what do you really want your life? Do you want to show that you can be the field of a hundred forty four other guys or do you want to just or you just want to grab money? And knowing you as I do, Mac, I know where I know where your own uh enthuism enthusism with life.

But I imagine in some sense it's in conflict right now. It's changed over the years. Yeah, I want to sound justin Leonard out of Texas and money four. I mean, I can tell you I don't think he ever mentioned money. He wanted to beat people. Um, get me in tournaments. I'm gonna go beat people, and he did did a great job of it. Uh. In the last several years, money has turned into the only thing guys. I mean, that's how they describe people. Now. Have you met so

and so, Man, he's loaded, he's a billionaire. I hear it all the time and and I always look at him like, yeah, but I know that guy and he's not happy. You know. The happiest people I know are what people doing what they love to do and to keep doing it. I mean, why do you see these golfers I'm on the Champions Tour. Bernard Longer can't need money, means he can't mean money and he can where he spend it too much. But I mean he likes to

beat people. And you go out and watch the guy's Dicky Pritt or I mean, just look at these guys are they're aging, but they have that fire and you know, I I watched Daviss Love hit balls on the reins the other day, trying to trying to be able to go to the p G. A uh, I mean it's still there. That's what. That's what's great about golf. It never ends. And so no, it's changed in the younger The younger folks now come out. How much money can

I get? How many endorsements can I get? Um, you know they see these private Jeck commercials, you know they want to fly private. I mean, it's it's changed a ton and again, I it's not my job to judge them, but I just you know, I've seen the rise and fall of golf. Um. You know, this is not forever career for everybody. This isn't it's a there's a short window to go make your money. Everybody thinks. Everybody thinks

everyone's a Jim Furric or Fred. You know, there's there's a lot of names we could just start popping off and you'll go, gosh, what happened to him? What happened to him? Whether it was through injury or you know ability. You know, Justin Leonard is a great story. You know they didn't tiger proof golf courses in early two thousands, say Justin Leonard proof them. Um, I mean that, you know, Justin Leonard would be the best players ever play if he hit it thirty yards for him. I mean, that's

how good a golfery was. And since distance became, you know, like it's kind of like the Tour I mean trying to when they tried to keep Tiger from winning golf terments, and that was what they were saying. By lengthening golf courses, they were really taking a lot of people that could play golf out of the game. Um, you don't you know so? Um yeah, I look, money is not gonna make you happy. We all know it. I try to.

You know, you can tell a kid that. But I also have a kid that says, you know, I you know, I want to make I want to make money. I want to fly on that jets Mac. When you when you look at amateur talent and everybody looks good on the range, and everyone can pitch the ball and put the ball. They often shoot sixties six on any given day, how do you decide who to go after? O God?

I mean, I mean, I mean after you meet with them and stuff and you watch them play, you can start seeing little differences and how they react to the game, Um, how calm they are within the game, and UM, I always look you know, I always listen to the golf ball first, you know, the sound that makes, because there's some people can fake it. Um. But then you kind of you know, I've had to change over time because you've gotta look at power. You've gotta look at guys

that hit at three yards. You can't just look at you know, guy that can chip and put um. And then after that it's more about the relationship with the guy because you know you're gonna be close to him for a long time and so you know, there's no factors that you you can't look inside their heart and say can they handle golf at a professional level. I used to say there's a difference between playing God professionally and being a God professional. You know, it's being a

God professional means you're gonna travel a lot. Know, it's not glamorous. You're gonna tee off at seven in the morning in your first PGA Tour event and no one accept your parents and grandparents are watching me. It's gonna be just like a junior event. You know, it's not gonna be crowds and and the hotels are not that great and you're not and you're gonna be alone a lot.

You know, it's almost solitary confinement at times. Um and there's those moments of exhilaration of winning an event, but you know, after a few days it's gone, you know. And and they've never played this college players, never played the amount of golf to the tour player place, and can they handle that? You just don't know. So you know, everybody can say, well, I can tell you this guy is gonna win. Obviously you got to look at the

earlier records. But for every guy that's won a lot of tournaments that comes out with all the fanfare, there's a David Gossip and uh and Hank Kenney. There's people just don't remember those guys that had all the promise in the records. So there's no way of knowing. And I've always said that a lot of it has to do lunch, stayed, term, pro how they're managed and people, you know, people say that's not true, but I think you know, it takes a lot to get them up

and going to get out there. So how do I pick them? I mean, you can't. You can't say. It's like, how do you, judge Sunset, I covered David Gosset's US amateur victory at Pebble Beach and half the gallery where people in the agenting business. And and then years later when when he fell into the abyss, I went to, you know, try to unravel this mystery. The saddest thing I've seen in golf was David Gossipy washed out at Q schools like second stage, and as you know, those

are such tents rounds. You finally get to the end, and whether you make or you don't, everybody's cutting loose and the beer is flowing. People are crying, people are hugging, and gossip went to the range to hit balls and he was alone out there. They've already taken the flags out of the rains. They couldn't even find the balls, like no one ever hits golf balls after the last round at school. But that he was on such a

quest and he never did find it. And if I'll never forget that, the scramble to find a box of you know, a bucket of balls was was wild. But it's tough out there. It's tough, no, but it's tough out there. I mean, like I said, everybody can say you can pick talent and looking backwards, I can tell you I did a good job of this and that the hell, but now you can't. You can't. You just can't find out who can handle all the stuff that's not progole. It's just and that's where a lot of

success comes. And sometimes, you know, even the kids that come out and sign these huge contracts and they get a bunch of money, sometimes money can drown out their talent as much as not having enough money. You know, they can they all they ever wanted was money, and they get a million dollars in a bank and they think they've got money for life. And there twenty three years old, and we all know that's not gonna last that long, right, Um So yeah, it's it's it's difficult,

you know, everybody. I tell every kid, I say, look at I've said, if you can't do anything else but play pro golfer living, go do it. But why would you want to be a great amateur and go in US amateurs and playing Walker Cup teams and playing the Masters? And I say that joke only because I know they're going to go try to chase the best competition in the world. Um, I don't know, when the last time someone was really really good at state amateur, I mean

that it just immediately jumped in. But and that's the other thing. These kids when they're great, man, I mean, there are slew of these agents out following them around and you know, wooing them and getting them to come and and and that's and while they're on top, they're talked to a lot. But when when they go when they're not playing well, they don't. They don't hear much anymore. Unfortunately.

I kind of want to go back to the live of golf stuff because your perspective is interesting if you think of it in the context of it's just more opportunities, it's more feeder systems. It just creates. It helps to alleviate this this this bottleneck we have at professional golf where there's all these guys who are fighting for us spot. And uh, I don't know that there's been so much talk about what's our moral qualms and and the other issues.

But is it is it a good thing? Like if if we can, if we can just set aside the money, let's pretend that live golf is being funded by you know, Australian interests or something, and whatever it might be, like, how could this benefit the ecosystem professional golf? I mean it's more chances to play. I mean it's it's quite simple. It's opportunities. You. I can never get into a fight about money. I mean where the money came from. I could never pull that off. I mean it's just I

think it's futile to do it. But any if I have, I had a client that any olgatory, one of the US amateur and he's a conditional status player on the Corn Farry Tour. And you know, he goes and money qualifies. People realized, realize that's a fifteen or two thousand dollar endeavor. You don't make it. I think there's eight spots or maybe two people playing, and I mean two hundred people that can play, and and so it doesn't get through. And now he's got to go play many Tour event.

G pro is kind of problem around here. And um so now he's got to go play the g Tour event to stay competitive, keep his edge. Um there's another thousand dollar entry fee to win fifteen thousand. And I always urge people go watch a g pro event. You

want to go see see some things. I mean, they got there's fifty people in that field that can play on tour and they're out there and carts with nobody watching, with two rules officials for the whole event, and how difficult it is to get in the lineup, to get there right, and to get to this tour. And if if, if there was this g Pro event, they pay a thousand a week to play and not a very great golf course as a usual. And so if you're telling me there was another tour, I don't care. I didn't ask.

I don't know where the g Pro money comes from. I don't know where any of these many. But I need places for the guys to play in games. You just can only get so many balls, and and playing money games for your friends won't do it. You need him in competitive golf. And so if there were nine more tours that opened up in America that they could go play golf competitively, you know, professionally, I wouldn't ask where the money come from. I'm just like, let's get

them there and start playing. Mac. You're sort of a golfing joy interrupt you, Uh, go home? I mean I am really curious for Max. Take if if you how are you thinks it's going to play out with the tour releases and if he thinks any players are going to defy the tour and go over to that first London event. I mean that's a big question and professional golf right now. Yeah, man, I don't know. I haven't. I don't have anybody involved in it. Um, I don't.

I didn't have a player asked for release. I think there's gonna be something that I really do. I think there's gonna be some guys that go ahead and play. Um, you know, I I don't know. Again, I'm not an attorney, so I can't tell you how this is gonna Yeah. I do know if the lawsuit happens, that the lawyers are gonna win. I know that. Um, but I don't I think people. I think there's gonna be some players are gonna go. I really do, And UM, I don't

know what the rights are. You know. I've always known that the PGA Tour, you play fifteen events and if you want to play somewhere else, you right for a release. I've never had in my past. I've never had the tour turned down release for a player to go play Chinici Crowns in Japan They've always been accommodating. And sometimes they'll say, well, you know, we needed to play this event in the next sewn years, and you go, okay, great, that's fine. That's all I mean to me. That's always

been fair and they've always been good about it. I don't know that they've ever expected thirty two people to send in a release to go play in Saudi Arabia, and I was I mean, honestly, I was shocked that they let them do that. Um. Now they're not giving anybody one to play in London, So I'm assuming they're taking essentially a firm stand. They must feel like their position is great. And but I do think some guys

are going I really do, and I'm going there. Well, we were on the same page there and Mac, I think one of your great skills is, uh, you're sort of a golfing futurist. Year one is probably gonna be kind of rougher live. Um, but where do you see it going? In other words, in year two and year three? Can it become a real competing tour? Can I get a network deal? Is it something that's going to catch on not just the United States but in other parts

of the world. Do you think it's gonna ultimately thrive? Wow, I'm I don't know. I'm split on it. I think if they're committed and they can fund it for long enough, if they can stay in the game. UM yeah, I mean there's been players coming off of you know, the South African Tour. There's been players come off I mean yeah, I mean they they just formed another tour. I think it can thrive. When you say compare editive, I mean the PGA Tour is the most competitive tour and I

don't think it will. I don't think that will change regardless. But the different format, the shotgun start, the fifty four holes, the team play. Um, I mean is there a sect? I mean, I I people that watch golf where I am, we will watch any golf. I mean, I will watch anything. I won't watch football players play golf. I won't watch. But if you golfers, I you know, I love the LPG. I love the one because I can relate more of the distances. I can relate more, you know, to what

they're doing, probably than I can do these guys. You know, somebody asked me, I was like, why are you trying to hit so far? You don't watch a basketball game, try to go dunk. I mean, what is this? I mean golfers chasing distance amateurs. I mean, just try to find the ball. And it's a good start. So anyway, I think you could put golf on that that. I mean, let's face it, not every tournament the tour puts on

is super competitive. I mean there's a there's tournaments that you might not recognize but ten people in the field because you know it's some small, short field or opposite field event. But you know, at the British Open, I've always been watching I don't know, I can't remember with the opposite one with the barber saw. You know, I watched it from the British Open. I would watch that tournament because we're golfers. We want to watch golf. And I love a great story. Who's this kid? Where did

he come from? He's gonna win his first event, his wife said in the gallery. So I think I think if they stick with it and they keep producing tournaments and they I think, I think, like every other tour,

they'll survived if they have the funding. They have the funding, and you know, imagine Robert Garry is yeah, imagine Robert Gris gets on a heater, or he wins two events and has a couple of their top tens, he's made fifteen or twenty million dollars, And if I'm you know, a mid level tour player, I'm gonna be like, what the hell Like? I think the insidious thing about sports

watching is that it works. And a year two, I think you'll get more play airs, and year three you'll get even more players because we can only we can only express our moral outrage so many times. I think it's tedious that he just everyone just kind of moves on. And that's that's how you buy acceptance in these things,

and that's just the reality of situations. So I think, I mean, if they're if they're committed to five years, and I don't know why they wouldn't be at this point, I think they'll get the wind up with a lot of good players. I mean, look, there's I look, I can say I could go out, I could go find them forty eight guys right now that don't have any status that are really good golfers, I mean really good golfers to go play. I could be easy and and

and then what happens. I don't know if in the sense that a lot of your right, A lot of the stuff is being talked about is just continuing about the sport watching or the human rights and you know that's I mean, it just it kind of blends in with all the things going on in US in life and we have you know, daily we have mass shootings in America. I mean daily we have things. I mean we have America has the death penalty. I mean, or you know, are you arguing about all these executing people?

I mean, we execute people. So it just it finally gets into what what are we really argued about. I mean, if you want to talk about you know, you know, Native Americans would probably tell you and I talked to Michael about this, and the Native Americans would probably tell you that the US at one point didn't have a great, great record on human rights. Um My dad used to use this statement. He said, you know, every every center

has a future and everything has a past. I don't know, just it just comes a time when I think what we all to focus on is there's an opportunity to play golf. If that the tour by their billows say you can't play both, then that's something that they have to figure out. But I think for a golfer to be, you know, just killed for going over and playing golf, I don't know. I don't know why they would want to push somebody at that level. And again, as I

go back to there's corporate endorsements. How the corporations handle you know, how the corporations handle this? Do they? You know, did Phil lose those deals because of what he said or because he was going to go play to live golf to her? I don't know, but you know, you have to play into that suth so um and added up. But I got a feeling that if they're smart, these guys that are going, if they're going and getting paid to do it, they're probably already added that kind of

in their in their thinking and their financial thinking. You have to yeah, And I don't know if I'm lucky or not. I don't have anybody that asked for least to play. It would have kind of been fun to know that, But um, I just I wonder, you know, like I said, I haven't talked to many people about it in my business. I don't, but I think that in two I think they're gonna let a few people rush the bunker, and once they find out what the results of that are. Then I think you're gonna see

some guys drifting over Maximi. It's been lost here because there's such animosity towards not Phil as a person necessarily, but what Field represents, which I think is like, oh, you're biting the hand that feeds you, and people don't like that. Let's leave that aside for a minute and just think about some of the ideas that he's suggesting. Broadly speaking, not enough freedom for the players. But let's

be even more specific than that. Some of the inventive concepts that that Live is talking about, Like you just said, fifty four holes, team play, shorter season. Could they be incorporating the PHA Tour? If you're if you were an advisor to the PHA Tour, what would you say? What would you say about some of these alternative forms of playing competitive golf? Man, I would love for him to mix it up. I would love not every Thursday through Friday,

Thursday through Sunday be an eighteen hole stroke event. You know, it's it's same golf, different place, and there's only so much an announcer can say about it, you know, I mean, what if you had a four man team event for a week, and what if you did you know, I would love the match. I'd love the p G A this will this week. ILD have loved it to stay max play. I've always said that that would to keep in the holding of a game. I thought that would

be that would really set the pg apart. And I know why they didn't, UM, And I know why they don't UM. But you know again, so let me ask this question. So the match play, and if I'm getting all track, tell me. But you know the WGC match play it used to be. You know, you show up in Tucson, there'd be sixty four players, and the next day you come and there'll be thirty two players, and the next day you come there be sixteen. Why did they Why did they change that format? Because Tiger kept

getting beat in the first round? So why did they do that? Was it? It wasn't no other reason, I think to create more revenue dollars question. Okay, well that's fair, but that was the economic decision. Did I like it? No? I love the fact that you came in back on your plane, get out of here. I mean, you're gonna make some money. UM. But yes, go back to your question. Yes, could they incorporate. I mean, it would be wonderful. I love the tournament in New Orleans too. I never see

guys laugh and have so much fun playing off. I mean you really, I mean everyone once in a while four ball is great or yes, why not? I mean what, why does it have to be? I mean it, I mean it's I mean, it goes a tour, season goes January one two. I don't know how long time used to be an off season. You know, I used to love you know, I remember when you know where you're gonna remember it was cold North Carolina where I lived. But Thanksgiving Day to watch the Skins game was one

of the best days of my life. I hadn't seen gold playing, I hadn't seen warm weather. And here's the stars going at it. And I mean, you know, of course, I mean, Nicholas, you know they played, They're going to compete like they don't have a dime. I mean, they like to be each other. So absolutely, Michael, I think it would be wonderful at this resulting in some change of formats and different things. Well, why don't why don't we each give mac are our last best question here

before we send them off? And I'll this will be mine at because actually my daughter has a friend who's a freshman in college, young guy who loves sports, and he's trying to figure out his life, and he decided he wants to be a sports agent. And I said, well, it's not as glamorous as it looks, you know, like you see them hugging behind on the eighteenth greene and when the victor walks off, or you know, they're in

the locker room against favorite champagne. If you're an NBA agent and you're on the cover sports illustrator like Rich Paul and all that, Daidy Goodell, but what would you what would you say to a young person out there who dreams of of of the life that you've you've lived. I speak to sports marketing classes and stuff, and I always put on the board that everybody wants the job they think I have. Um, there's a little bit of glamor every once in a while. Um. But you know,

I got in the business as a manager. You know, Vinny Giles hired me in in the early early nineties and he was a great golfering and we managed golfers. You know, they're not baseball players. They don't have a manager. They don't. They're the CEO of five and six employees. So I managed golf is it was never about money and it wasn't much money in the early nights in

this game. I mean you know, um, but you you dealt with everything the player dealt with, you know, the travels and all these things, and and and you don't hear from these players when they're playing great. Usually what you hear from them is when something's wrong. And it's usually not between eight and five a day. It's it could be at ten o'clock on a Friday night at msticut you're on the West coast, you're out the dinner with your wife, and an hour phone call trying to

figure out, all right, what's going wrong doing? You know? Is a caddy not doing his job? I mean so yeah, So what I tell you, if you love a twenty four hour, seven day a week job, if you love only talking to people that are probably not at the best, um, if you if you if you don't mind, my dad was a minister. So if you, if you don't mind that lifestyle, do it because I and I love it. I have young guys, the young kids. I love morning anything,

working with Um. When yeah, those one a few times you get to be in the writer cuple him a celebratory thing. You know, it's kind of fun, but you know it's you. It's a service business. It's a service job. It's not you're not in the big board rooms negotiating billion dollar deals. I can tell you that. Uh, that was a good one. Alan Um mac young player comes to you. He looks like he's the whole package. But

everybody that you're talking about like the whole package. And kid says you or the father says yea, what do I gotta do to get better? What do you say? Oh? Gosh? Um, I mean everybody's got a little difference. I mean most of these guys now, by the time they get out of college, they're physically fit. Um, they've got the clubs, they've got the UM. I think they're gonna have to

learn how to play a lot of golf. Um, they're gonna have to learn to practice smarter than they've ever practiced, and they're gonna have to learn to rest, um, and to get better. It's just like anything else that we do. Um, you've got to do it a lot, and you've got to do it in a lot of different situations. And you know, when you realize the player, it's played seven hundreds sometimes on tour and he's won twenty one. He's in the Hall of Fame. He lost seven fifty times,

So he better get used to losing. Um, and he's playing against some you know, going to be to get better, he's just gonna have to learn, Like under fire, that is really well said. Uh, that is really the whole thing, because like the whole Mountain glad wolfing of the temp that ten thousand hours they had the temp as you just said earlier, they got the tempt that I was ten thousand hours of college golf. But that tempt that I was a college golf that's worth about thirty minutes

on corn Ferry golf. You gotta and if you can't play Cornferry golf, you better play in the New Mexico Open or any other state Open you can get into it. We send them crazy, and Mike and Neill realize, I mean a lot of these college teams when they show up for the SEC's, they're private jets are sitting over here on the runway. Um, they're they're sprinter vans are rolling up in the thing I mean these and they've got a coach. You know, these coaches they're doing my job.

I mean they're managing them. I mean they're just with them every minute, and they're just you know, they're doing all this stuff. And then they release them, and I mean it's like there's no one standing there. I mean it's tough. Alan, can ask you a question? Yes? Please? Well, mac is obviously we can see, has had maybe the listeners cannot, but he seems to have an endorsement deal with Peacemakers for golf for golfers, golfers for pieces make

war more after Pether than ever. Now right, who's paying our bills? Alan? Wow? Michael comes in the door at the collective and always thinking about is keeping the lights on? What a team player? Yes, I actually have a paper here to remind me I wasn't gonna give a little

shot out to our friends at part points Golf. It's an ingenious little scoring app that we've all had fun experimenting with, and it's just a different way to to play the game as all other layer of strategy that I have to say, I don't I never get bored to playing golf, But if you're playing the same courses with the same guys every now and you just want to mix it up. And I would definitely encourage the

listeners to check out Part Points. It's it's a really fun way to think your way around a golf course where you can almost invent your own tea boxes and how you can play the same holes over and over but in totally different ways and with different things at stake.

So uh, it's it's really uh, it's it's a clever idea And the best thing about it is that Michael, you're you're so invested now in the success of our sponsor par Points because you're a well I think it's cool and you know, Mac, have you been to Sweden Scove I have not. I don't think you have. But the thing about Sweden scope is just nine holes and you can and you're and you're there all day, but you wind up doing what these far Points people are

talking about. I think, in other words, you play the holes, you know what they do, But now playing from a different tier, I think maybe you're playing in the multiple holes on greens. I can't remember right now for some reason, um, but they've got some massive greens. But just invent this stuff for yourself. I think it's neat. I agree, well

it's cool, Yeah, it really is. So this was another fire Drill podcast since this is the pg Championship, you know, this is the one week all year where the golf was kind of celebrates the club pro and and you can get a little more granular on the business side of golf. And so Mac Barnhardt, we appreciate your counsel and your your insight. You're gonna Mac were you Were

you ever a clip pro? Mac? No, No, I got offered, but I thought, I think I got offered fourteen thousand dollars and I don't only have to work maybe seventy hours a week, and so I turned it down. That's

for another podcast, I think definitely well. And and we should say for people who are tuning into like all these new offerings on the Firepit Collective, is that Mac, you are going to have a regular podcast presence with Coulton others gonna be the host and Michael Simms, who people know from the Bermuda Open and other cameos the PGA Tours now transitioning into kind of a life coach and a grew to help young players that you can learn from the things he's been through. So uh, you're

gonna be You're gonna be a regular here. So uh anyway, I love it. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for having me out. Yah's great. Alan, I've been we we've you know, Alan's meeting Mac has met Mac in the last few years and Mac and I go way back. And Mac is absolutely one of the most thoughtful, interesting, insightful people in the game. And as I mean, this is the tip of the iceberg because that we don't have the time for more. But uh, I know Mac has thought about the way the game and ways that

very very few, if anybody has. So yeah, it's a pleasure to be on your team, Mac, and have you thank you for that meant thank you word to be on with YouTube guys, So thank you. Thanks Mac. All Right, that's gonna do it for this Fire Drill podcast. I'm coming in hot from Tulsa, Oklahoma side of the PG Championship. Michael and I will be uh, we'll be doing these all week long. Jeff Ogilvie is gonna make some cameos.

We have we have a Lazarsias and Ryan French Monday Q Info coming in so A lot of different voices talking about what's gonna be one hell of a week here at the p g A. So thanks for listening and we'll do it again soon. Put another log on the fire. Nobody here is getting time