Fire Drill 009: Trumped

don't we all? Don't we all? I want to think part points they've they've been with the fire pick collected from the beginning. That's the scoring thing that's I want to learn about that. Yeah, I think the will be a recurring bit in our podcast. I wouldn't know about it next time. But just a quick word about about power points, because it is a really fun new way to score golf. Instead of just strokes, you get actually

getting points. It's great for kids and beginners who that's the mentality and every other sport you want to as many points as possible. And so it's really a labor of love from from these two guys who I've become friends with, Brandon Ebert and Kevin Quinley. They're awesome dudes. Members of Prairie Dunes, which might be the best golf course in America. Like I went out and played with them, I blew my mind and we actually it was it was a fun challenge to We played power points out there.

And it's based on the yardage, right, So you can have a five yard hole, but you can tee off anywhere you want and make your own golf course. And so you know, if it's a if it's a if it's this long, hard carry and you're playing against the guy who scratched like Kevin, I might move up in front of the hazard and played as a drivable par four. You would accrew fewer points because you've reduced the yardage it and puts you maybe in a more advantageous position.

So it's a whole other layer of strategy on top of um. You have to execute the shots, but you got to be realistic about what you can and can't do. Yeah, that that's part of the challenge. It's like can I hit a career drive here or am I more likely to hook it into the dunes. Well you know the answer to that, Michael. So you do have to be you do have to be clever. But anyway, part points check it out, so well, we want to take this before Michael and I have our long travel days to

um Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's like Paris in the spring. We're gonna, We're gonna be there. We're gonna enjoy the week. There's some good barbecue, there's some great night and golf, and there's one hell of a golf course Southern Hills, which is um was great town to be a vegetarian. And that's what I hear. That's quick question, Brown, How are

you getting there? What's your path? I'm gonna drive to s j c UM that's the San Jose Airport and then I connect through deadn for but only into Oklahoma City that I'm gonna drive because the way the flights were coming from the West coast, it was just quicker than to make that little drive over from from Oklahoma City. But um, you know, we've talked about this before. It is one of the joys of our job is that

we get to places we otherwise probably not visit. And I do have fond memories of Tulsa just for some good meals. And there was that law for Tune Park, that little that little lighted golf course. It was across the street from the Media Center and years past, and we would play and at ten o'clock the light to go out and you hear a bunch of like, you know, golf writers like, oh crap, you know, and everyone would walk in under the cover of darkness, and um, I

know that place is still going strong, and I expect that. Well, we'll visit it. I'm a in Tulsa, bunch. It's a great town. And I think Tulsa is two men's gulf what Rochester, New York is to women's golf. It's like they don't get it that often, but when they do, they really go to town and it's a it's a great golf town. It's a great city. And of course Southern Hills has been you know, retrofitted by Gil Hants,

and I've seen the pictures. It looks absolutely luscious. It was always one of those courses that had, you know, the proverbial great bones, um, but there there were some greens that are unpinnable and the bunkers looked a little tired, so they refreshed Southern Hills. I think it's gonna be one hell of a venue. And well, um, we're gonna defer too much talk about the golf course itself, because we're gonna be joined by Jeff Ogilvie, another another member

of the fire Pit Collective. Here in the days to come, we'll drop a more golf course centric preview and get into the wackiness of um the two thousand one US Open and some other fun stuff. But UM, today we want we want to set the table a little bit because not everyone remembers or knows that Southern Hills was not the original venue for this PG Championship. It was supposed to be trump bedminister and all that changed on

January six, two thousand and one. And Michael is, of course the hardcore golf fan is well aware, recently joined the collective and his first big story that that we're dropping, which is such a thrill to even say that. It goes extremely deep on this whole issue. So, um, it's on fire but collective dot com right now, I guess, Michael, what what what drew you to telling this tale of how Trump lost the p G A where Michelson fits

into it? Uh? You know there's cameos from Big Jack Nicholas and it's quite a rich stew of Big personalities and seth wah the who's the head of the PG of America. He has some pretty poignant things to say. So maybe briefly describe where you take the story and why you were drawn to it. Good, thank you for all that. Let's try to remember time. Trump has always been a larger than life figure. But let's try to think about Trump before he even got into politics. He

was a he was a real estate mogul tycoon. He was saying, it's become a fashion was that he was a second rate TV personality, but it's not really true. He was the first rate TV personality in the sense that his shows The Apprentice were wildly popular. What you liked him and didn't like him doesn't matter. They weren't successful shows. But his real passion was golf. He was

using golf, maybe to make money. I think his primary thing was to raise his status, and he was buying courses and his building courses, and he's fixing up old courses like dur Ralph. You could say you like him or didn't like him, even that's not material. If let's just try to think from Trump's perspective. He had a passion. He had a genuine passion for golf, and he had a driving need in his own psyche to be on

the world's best stages. And he cultivated the PGA Tour, the PGA of America, the U s J and other and other r and a other organizations, but those primarily to try to get a major championship, with the idea that if he could get one, he could get more. And if you're trying to sell memberships and tea times, you're trying to raise your status through golf in your

golf course owner, what could be better than that? Just as a quick aside to that thought, when you think about being a member of Augusta National, what is being a member of Augusta National mean without that annual Master's tournament,

It's a totally different thing. Sometime in twos, through Pete Babaco, who was in the CEO of the PUGE of America and Ted Bishop, who was then the president of the PUG of America, he got the Trump deed Minster Course selected and it was had to be a major thing on his life calendar that I'm going to be the host of the major championship. Yeah, I mean to understand Trump, you have to understand golf because he was this this striver, you know, from the unfashionable borough of New York City,

and he couldn't get into Augusta National. He couldn't get into Pine Valley or Seminole or any of these citadels of golf, and that killed him right like that. That was That was is for someone who status is everything to not be invited to these, these the most coveted of clubs. I think that that explains his whole foray into golf real estates like, okay, you won't have me, then let me just build something bigger and grander than

what you already have. Now it's as you said, it's not it's not all of our tastes, but um, you know that that need to be accepted. And he was never really accepted in Manhattan society. Um, he was just too he was too loud, he was too new, too new money. And I really think it's a huge part of trump psyche. And uh so expand on that a little bit more, just because the courtship that that Trump

did a professional golf is almost unparalleled. Because also the LPGA, I mean, he went after every single organization and governing body there is I mean he he spread it around and and finally got the validation for the PGA of America. I mean, how important was that. I think it had to a huge link for him, and uh, you could egg him on in conversation. And I'm really dating myself here, not dating myself. I'm really dating myself. But I'm really trying to say, is I'm talking about a period in

his life long before he got into politics. But he played the U s J off the PGA of America, played the PGA America off the U s g A, the PGA Tours. It was part of the mix. He hadded this long relationship with the lp J. He's a very very sophisticated manipulator, as many great salesman art. And

what happened in this particular case was Mike David. Mike Davis and people of Accua were both rising forces at the U s g A. And one of the two of them was going to succeed our friend David fat as the as the executive rector of the U s j A. UH the U s G One was a lawyer and a businessman and one was a golf guy. Pete was a lawyer and businessman. Mike Mike Davis very

much golf guy. They selected Mike Davis Pete the U s g A, as people somebodys do in that situation, I believe went to c A for Prie period and then it came back to Golf is the CEO of the PGA of America. The U s g A was going down an aggressive road to Trump. They had signed on the women's U S Open was going to be h PN Minster, They had already had a U S Junior,

the boys champion was Jordan's speed. So that when Pete got the job of the PGA of America, he swooped in there quickly with Ted Bishop at his side, and signed up Trump for the two thousand at senior pH signed up Trump for the two dozen in a senior PGA and two PGA Championship, And they were sort of off and running. So he was playing one against the other. And and now he's kind of I mean just to jump way ahead for a minute. Well he sort of

burned to all of them. The PGA Tour probably won't do business, So the PJA American probably won't, the R and A probably won't. The only people left who will, I know, I'm really getting to a head. Here is lived golf, but that was much shoot past. But anyway,

well it doesn't it doesn't form this whole thing. And we should mention here that, um, among sports writers, you probably know Trump the best, and even among most mainstream reporters, because when Michael's at Sports Illustrated he wrote a definitive feature on Donald Trump. This is way before the presidential ambitions. But um, tell the reader how often you interacted with Trump during the reporting of this story. I mean, I don't want this is a modesty, immodest. I would just

say it's accurate. He would not let go of me. Nothing nothing to do with me, and everything to do with the fact that I had something he wanted, a good write up in Sports Illustrated, and he thought if he could win me over, he'd get what he wanted. It just as how one amusing thing. People say, oh, how can you remember this all these years later? The recent remembers just and I'm sure you've had many kept had this experience. Trump gets lodged in your head. It's

just the way he talks and everything about him. He's a slow talker. It's not what he says is not complicated. So you know, it's not like it's nuance. You gotta remember Trump's skill, and this what I'm about to say did not show up at all in my opinion and his presidency. Trump's skill actually was to listen to you and figure out where he could push your buttons to

win you over. And but because you know I don't like vallet parking and I don't like fire what he called those things the water cast getting down waterfall waterfalls, and you know I don't need his hamburgers, he would say things like, or these not the most spirit to put cart paths you've ever seen in your life? Like I don't even like cart paths. You're asking the wrong person. And then, of course you're trying to be a place. You say, I mean, yeah, Donald, those are the best

cart paths I've ever seen life. And then later this is made up. If you should write something like and the cart paths so ridiculous, he'll call you. So you said those card pass for the best two episode. Heard you say so, I mean he's tricky. It's a weird

way and fun in his own weird way. Yeah, until because it was all meaningless, it's just then, of course, in president states yeah, I mean right, I mean because I dealt with Trump a bit when he was just a golf guy, and he was slightly ridiculous, but he was fun because he's just he's the larger life character and he does understand the game. He loves the game, and he could expound on Christie Kerr's putting stroke, and

you know, he really was a hardcore fan. And you know, I actually thought the single most nuanced thing he said during his entire presidency when he was talking about the electoral College versus the popular vote, was that it was it was like match play versus stroke play, and it was genius. And when you think of it in that terms, the whole thing makes sense because we all know you I can shoot eight and you can shoot eight two, but I can still beat you in match play. Because

that's the way, the best, the way it goes. And so anyway, that was, that was incredibly insightful. And let's say something like, how about the act of giving Tiger Woods the Presidential Medal of Freedom at age, you know, mid forties, because he won the Masters. Let's say Mollinary, you know, just about three weeks after he won the Masters, Let's say mollinary have played that back on better and

he won. Then when Trump had given uh, you know, he gave him the Presidential Medal Freedom, the highest civilian honor, because he won a golf tournament. And it was good for Trump. But let's leave all that aside. He had, in my opinion, Trump's best day as president was when that kid came to mow the one of the White House and Trump talked about and Trump was so charming with the kid, and the kid was great that the Trump was great. But Trump was spectacular with Tiger Woods

that day. And one of the things, to your point, so he's reading about the teleprompter, he says, and the teger had the Garden Trophy scoring outage, and then he got off his little Prompterty said, and that's really saying something because he only plays the hardest courses. Well, that's accurate, insight. You know, it's hard to win that now they do with Justin Barten. Trump at the point being, it's harder to win the Barton Trophy when you're not playing Bob

Hope and you know the course courses. So as you say, your your example was way better. But he I mean, that is really the old example, match versus medal for electoral versus probably broke, but he's knowledgeable back off. That's really the point. Yeah, And so he gets the p g A championship in twentys you and then he runs a very divisive presidential campaign. He becomes a very polarizing president,

and there's a lot of angst in the governing bodies. Now, the U s J had awarded Trump the Women's Open at Trump Beadminister, a kind of the crown jewel in his portfolio and the hill Country of New Jersey, and it was too late to pull the plug. So you had the sitting president of the United States tweeting NonStop

about women's golf that week. And you and I were both of that tournament, and you know the motor cade but roar up and in the middle of this golf turn, I would pop the President of the United States and he's pressing flesh and he's he's greeting his members and he's signed autographs and it was this weird confluence of golf celebrity politics. And for the wind, he was like the potmobile. Yeah, I was unbelievable promobile out wheels and yeah,

all of it was it was. It was ridiculous and fun and whatever your feelings are about Trump, it was an unbelievable victory for the Women's Open because it received global attention and Trump couldn't help, you know, tweeting about these these obscure golfers to you know, to the political people, and they had to pay attention because he was on the property and this tournament was playing out. And uh, of course there was the President's Cup at Liberty National

where he helicoptered in for the US victory. So even though Trump was so incredibly polarizing, he still was hosting or he had a role in in these big time tournaments. And then, of course January six happened, and that changed things in the dying days of his presidency. So take the reader through what happens. There's the Capital riots, and um, of course, again golf always plays role, as the next day Anika and Gary player Resid received their Presidential Medals

of Freedom. While you know they're they're they're still cleaning the blood off the steps of the Capital and that's

become part of both of their legacies. But it had an impact right away on on how people felt about about Trump and about his legacy and of course the two thousand champonship, which are on the precipice of so to walk the reader through what happens in the aftermath of the riots, right and and it's interesting to see how the U s J played Trump versus how the UM when Trump announced his candidacy with hav in two thousand fifteen, summer two thousand fifteen, and then he made

those payous comments about Mexican immigrants, and the us J was already getting cold feed about the guy, and they sent up a couple of emissaries the us J did to to try to talk to him out of having the two thousand and eighteen US Women's Open the orang just talking about and Trump said, you know, there's no

way I got a fucking contract. Uh. So now I passed forward to his presidency and there's Charlottesville, Ruth, and there's everything you know, the the no fly zone for Muslims and just you know, one thing and one thing after another that could have been disqualifying Mark, and the PHA America is like, well, we this guy's gonna be the host. He's either going to be the former president or the sitting president. Uh. And he's gonna. He's a polarizing figure. Uh, but there was no question that he

was going to be the host of this championship. And then and then januaries and then January six comes and seth wais in Florida watching an unfold and part of it is an intellectual exercise, and part it's just an instinctive that a line had been crossed from which the p g A could not recover. And um, and I know people have really strong opinions about this on both sides of it. You know, it's just a golf course.

From names attached to it, Why does it matter? Well, because incept was view of things Trump, the divisive president or or ex president would co opt and become and become much bigger than the tournament. And that would not serve the PJ of America. Well, and when you think about it, this this weird line. How those protests he's on January six gathered Capitol Hill and been peaceful, we would be playing the PGA Championship at Bedminster this week.

There's no question about it. It was because Trump. What no matter what your opinion is, Trump was pinned with formenting the riot and then doing very little to quell it. Does that sound accurate? I don't want to say anything that doesn't sound accurate. I mean, I don't want to say I don't want to voice an opinion here, but I would think that, you know, the broad feeling among not everybody biting these but millions of people, was that

that that he had. He encouraged the gathering that led to the writing and did very little to quell the well the writing when when it was underway. That would maybe be an understatement for that reason. He lost the p J championship, but had those parts from peaceful and we would have it. So, you know, people have you and I among them. We hate the mix of politics

in sport. We go to sport to get away from politics a lot of the time, maybe all the time, but there are times when the two are so intertwined you can't get away from it. And this is one of those times. Yeah, And there's a long history of that.

I mean going back to you know, Jesse Owens in the Berlin Olympics with Hitler, I mean, um, John Smith and Tommy Carlos, like politics and sports have always Muhammad Ali and the Vietnam Draft, like this is taking me in the NFL games and Trump Trump, Trump turned that into something political. Well, it was political, Trump turned not more political. It's naive to say that the politics doesn't have a role in sports because it's always had that role.

And while you're right, it sometimes wish it didn't. But it's it's just it is what it is that and it really is what it is. And the shocker to me is the Trump, the Trump that I thought I knew before he before he became a politician, ran for the presidency. Was such a salesman. I thought he would have done anything he could do to not be this even though he's a polarizing figure you like him or

don't like him. I thought he would try to win people over and and and even and all through the presidency you saw that he wasn't like that at all, and it caught up with him in the end. Let's see double downs. I feel like I'm going down a rabbitable year. But now just to finished this one though, he doubled down so much with his quote base that it ultimately cost him the thing that probably he really did love in life, which is golf. And theydea of

being the host of this major championship. Yeah, well, and you know the crown jewel and his portfolio really is Turnberry and which we know is a spectacular golf course. Michael I had a great match their years ago. I had him like four down, came all the way back and I'm I'm won the first four holes if you remember that, and then it was like the tortoise in the hair. He just chased me down. But um, you know that for people should be allowed to have you know,

it's true. And Janelle was part of that group too, I remember, and but anyway we digress. Yeah, I mean for to think that Turnberry he's never going to have a Open championship while while Donald Trump is still walking this earth, I mean, it's it's a loss for all of us. But the RNA, they've never made it up. They've never released a policy statement about it, but they've just kind of made it clear that as you're saying with the p g A, and they don't want Trump

lording over the tournament. And you know, I went to I went to some of those events at Dural after Trump had refurbished the property, and he was everywhere and he's on the range present flesh and his helicopter is coming and going, and you can't ignore the guy when

when he's the host of the tournament. And so so, the PGA makes this decision and all of a sudden, you know, you're only talking about it's a very short amount of time to to organize a major championship, which we know is a vast undertake taking with all the infrastructure and the corporate hospitality. So how does Southern Hills

jump to the front of the line there? Uh? From what seth While and others saw make twenty year thirty, they made their the pj SEPWA is you know, the senior staff there in the PGA board made their decision not to have the PGA Championship at Trump Petminster Um. By the end of the weekend after the January six riots, they send out an ap B to various clubs, do you want to host a championship? Twenty to thirty clubs responded the leaders in the clubhouse and what I could

pick up. We're Congressional Valhalla, which is sold by the pack America and UH in Southern Hills and Tulsa, Pahoma. Uh. Southern Hills had a lot going for it, one of which is they were going to have or they were already scheduled to have them, we're going to have senior championship. So they had a lot of people in place, they had a lot of corporate relationships in place. They had a fabulous golf course. Sea have been there recently and

liked it. And um and as as one of the members that told me they were quote major Corney, they watched it. Uh favorite expression, I'm gonna use all of his and as as in everything in life, you know, when you really want to when you really really want something, you know, it's like blind love, you pursue it with manic seal uh And and they got it. And from from everything we're not there yet or from everything for they're totally ready for this championship. And I actually think

Trump Beadminster, we've both been there. Have you been there? All? Yeah, yeah, oh right, and I played it, you know several times. It's a really good modern golf whereas it's a big looks like you know, the second place that would very capably hold a major championship, but it's not Southern Southern hips is it's got involved, but especially that those those green stock pitch shots and chip shots at Startern Hills are spectacular, That those crown greens, everything about it, it's

a really special golf course, and that it's in Tulsa. Yeah, it plays like a sand belt of course, you know. And they're gonna they're gonna bake it out firm and fast, and they've they've shaved some of the grasses down around the greens to really highlight the recovery shots. And it's gonna be a tremendous test. I'm I'm excited about this venue. I was gonna say it feels a little bit like like they just airlifted darl and put it into you know,

the Jersey hillside. There's there's just not the same level of artfulness. And so yeah, from just a golf course standpoint, I don't think there's any questions that I'm greating this question. It's such a deep at this hour day, you may not be ready for it. Having made a study in your in your reporting life of both Phill Nicholason and Donald Trump, in what ways do you see them as some similar characters? Yeah, they are. And you know this,

this is actually not even in the book. This is a funny story that Phil told me years ago, where he was player of the year in college and they had this this big all American banquet and Trump was like the hosts. And that was when he had just started dating Marla Maples, who Phil said was the most beautiful woman he'd ever laid eyes on, and so um. At some point there's some interaction and Phil or Trump.

So one of them convinces Marlo to give Phil a kiss on the cheek, you know, for a photo or whatever. And at the last minute, like Phil turned his face and like kind of went like lip to lip with with Marla Maples right in front of Trump, and Trump loved it. You know. That's like they both have some rascal in them. They're they're they're they like to stir the pot. They like they enjoy the energy of the cameras on them and their showmen in their own way.

And there's definitely some similarities there. And I was gonna get to this. So you know, Seth was an interesting figure because he presided over Deutsche Bank, which we know was deeply involved in the finances of Donald Trump and gave him hundreds of millions of dollars in loans to help keep him afloat. Not really under Seth waws Rain, but you know, that's that's a big line item on on on WA's resume. And and Deutsche Bank can still under investigation for its role in Trump's finances and so

that's an interesting piece of the puzzle there. And so now now enter the Saudias because their their tentacles run to everywhere. So Trump is out as for hosting any

important golf tournament for the foreseeable future. And as you teased earlier, all of a sudden they're now mixed up in the live golf and they're on the hook to host two of these events that are coming up this summer into the fall and what And of course Trump and the Saudis go way back because he's you know, they were some of the first buyers of this overpriced condos and Trump Tower. And you know Trump's famous line about the Saudias. It applies him as a real estate developer.

And even when he was president, was they pay cash? And in his world that's king. And so he's never really had any qualms about their their role as bad actors on the world stage. We know that that his son in law, Jared Kushner's text buddies with with MBS.

You know, the Crown Prince and Um. After after the assassination of Jamaal ka Shogi Um, Trump did not come down on the Saudis as president in a way that many other presidents might have, you know, for assassinating a Washington Post reporter who was a resident of the United States. And so there's been this kinship between the ruling elite of Saudi Arabia and Trump and his organization for a long time. So I don't think anyone was shocked when

he signed up to host these two events. And you know, Krishner had been over at the Saudi Internationalist this year, pressing flesh like this has been a visible courtship. But what can we say about this, this now more formal alliance between Trump and the Saudis. It's an unbelievable confluence of events. And let's bring Phillips at this conversation as well. Uh, Phil wanted to roll Phil Uh. Trump has cultivated Nicholson

as a quote friend. In golf um fifteen years ago, Trump was telling me how much Phil loved the driving range. He hadn't even played the course, but Phil had been to the driving range for an exhibition and allegedly, I am sure It's true. I told Trump that it was the best, told Trump that it was the best driving range that he ever that he had ever seen. Kept it, kept the voice message for a long time afterwards. Here

at Trump Draw, there's a villa. There's one for Tiger, and there's one I don't know who else, Uh maybe Gary Player, and there's and there's one for Phil. There's a Bill Micholson villa at a Trump Darrell. So now we've got Phil aligned with this Greg Norman series, uh, the Live Golf series, and Trump, who started out of options for splashy events that that he can stage at his at his tournaments at his golf courses, is signed up for two with events himself. Uh So it's like

everything in life. It's like when you're out of options, what do you do. It's amazing because one thing that that this Saudia seduction has done is it's brought home for a lot of sports fans the insidious nature of

of the Saudi Arabian regime. I mean, I think a lot of Americans are just not have not been tuned into Saudi Arabia's role on the world stage, and a lot of folks don't know are forgotten that fifteen of the nineteen eleven hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, and that there's there's there's it was just a news break a week ago. You know. The evidences has always been there, and it's been buried in classified documents. It was redacted

from the nine eleven Commission report. But the Saudi Arabian government was materially supporting some of the hijackers, and those links are just growing stronger. Is more proof emerges, and and Saudi Arabia it you know, if you follow, if you follow Brandle Shamble's Twitter feed and other places, Satty Braby has become so toxic in the public imagination. It hasn't changed, but people are more more tuned into you know, they just execute eighty one people in the town square, um,

and things of that nature. And so that Trump would would so happily sign on at this moment, I think it does reveal a desperation. It's a tone deafness, you know, just it's like read the room. I mean, um, is it that important to host a golf tournament? I mean, he still is a He's present United States, and it just feels wildly inappropriate for him to be hosting these events. But um, I guess Trump has passed the point of really caring, right right, you people, this is not a

political statement. It's gonna sound like one people get down on the bomb if we're hanging out with Bruce Springsteening do podcasts with them, or down in Clinton for writing a murder mystery. What is that compared to what you just said. It's not even on the same scale. No, No, it's it's interesting because I mean, we all know this is just blatant sports washing and that you know, the Saudis don't really care about golf. What they're trying to

do is launder their reputation on the world stage. And you know, the people who take their money are complicit, and so it's really it's really a wild moment in professional golf. And of course Phil is at the center of it. It's been that way for a while. Now, what's your what's your guests? I'm starting, but I know people are gonna want to know what's your insight into why Phil is not playing this week? Let's start there.

So I think you have to go to his the final paragraph of his February you know statement you can't call it an apology because it wasn't really an apology. You know, he made himself both the hero and the victim of that statement. But um, you know that last paragraph we talked about I've let people down, Yeah, and I need to become a better man and prioritize the people I love. That doesn't have much to do with with Saudi Arabia or golf tournaments. You know, there's there's

deeper things at work here. And Phil's playing a lot of golf around San Diego. I've actually been sent some photos and videos that I haven't posted because it just felt a little invasive. But the he you know, he's playing Metro Santa Fe, he's playing the farms, he's playing the bridges. So it's not like he's hurt. It's not like he doesn't have a zest for golf. I just think he's not ready to return to public life and

the scrutiny. And you know, there's gonna be a come to Jesus moment where he's going to have to get in front of the world and and talk about these last few months and some of his decision making and some of his motivations to to get mixed up with the Saudi's in the first place, and I think he's just trying to defer that, and so I don't think he's just you know, I've talked about this before, but you know, the aftermath of the book excerpt and when

Phil went into exile, you know, someone extremely close to him use the word suspend and talking about you know, he said, now the tour wants to suspend him, and then they went dark on me. So whether whether he's suspended he's on a voluntary leave of absence really just becomes a matter of semantics. But clearly a tour told them it was time to go away for a while. But there's not really any scenario where that would include the PGA Championship because the PGA of America does not

have to honor that suspension. Phil is the defending champion. He's exempted into their tournament. And if you were to return to golf at Southern Hills, that's that would become an event that transcends sports. It would be amazing for

their tournament to be at the center of that. I mean, this is an organization that really has two events a year that keeps the whole thing afloat the PGA Championship well and then of the writer comphiches every other year, and um, you know, the money generated by by by these events, it's massively important to the PGA of America and so they would have loved to have Fill there and it would have been an incredible spotlight. So I don't you know, I think this was entirely up to Fill.

The Masters was a little more nuanced that was earlier. That was a little closer to the whole thing. Um, when the news broke and if it was say a ninety day leave slash suspense, and that that would have included the Masters. And because the PGA Tour has always been very good to Augusta National, they were going to honor that one way or the other, through back channel

communications or anything they had to do. But I think this is entirely Phil's decision, and you know, I think he's also maybe buying time to see how it's going to play out with the Saudias. You know. Now, um, the tours denied releases to the players to go over there and play for this first event in London the week for the U S Open, So that requires a

lot of strategizing. Who's gonna break the blockade. You know, eight PGA tour members are going to show up there and test the waters and see what end probably touch off litigation. Is it going to be Phil? Is he waiting for someone else to raise their hand? I just think there's there's so much up in the air right now that from his perspective, he just wanted to let

things cool down. Um. And you know, of course my book does drop Tuesday, the PGA Championship week, and that that was that date was picked basically when Phil put it out in the ocean course. You know, it was always gonna come out that week, and that was long before he called me and told me all the secrets. And UM, it's just I don't know if you know. I sent Phil the book weeks ago now and just said, hey, you know this is factors in your decision. Here's the book.

You'll know what's in it. There's no more earthquakes like the Saudi stuff, you know. Um. I wasn't trying to influence his decision, but just allow him to be informed. If he was worried about what was to come. It's like, well, here's the book, you can make your own decision. I didn't hear anything back, but so it's it's wild. I mean, I do think this is such a crossroads for Phil Mickelson because sports fans love a comeback and they love

a redemption story, and you know, we are a forgiving nation. Um. I can't remember which golfer said that I'm talking about about Phil, but um it was Big Jack. Yeah, And you know he's right, and so people are, you know, Phil's done his time. People are ready to cheer for

him again. But it gets very complicated if if he goes all in with the Saudi's at that point, he's going to burn up a lot of good will and a lot of fans are not going to forgive him, because then it really does become about greed and money. And he's already shared, you know, his innermost feelings, and he knows they're bad people, and he knows the money's dirty, he still takes it. That really complicates his comeback. And so I think Phil's trying to figure all this stuff out.

And you know the fact that the Saudi event is the week for the US Open, which we all know, you know, has been such an important tournament and fills life and his legacy, and he's still dangerous at this age and um, you know, he was out of the US Open field and now he's back. Now he's back in it, you know, for five years because of the PGA Championship wins. So he's bought himself, you know, one last round to try and get the missing jewel in

the crown. Like it's it's amazing how this has played out. So I feel like Phil wants to play the Saudi events because he needs to sort of validate this, this insurrection. Um. Not to use another word that could be applied to January six, but he um, you know, if he walks away, now it's like what was all this about? And I do think he wants the money. He might need the money, so it's um. At the same time, I think he knows that it will complicate his legacy and it's a

monumental decision. I just don't think he's made up his mind and so like it just made sense to himself. Another month here, it was extremely nuance stancre. There's so much in there that was very well done out and uh uh start to cut to the chase and we don't know this because we're not for instanc accounts here, but if if if you're weighing legacy versus cash flow problems. And I'm not saying we know, because we don't. Cash

flow problems will win out. If you're starting and you can see all low for bread, you're gonna see a lot low for bread um. And of course that that's a very crude analogy, and viewed that way, despite all the nuances, he said, it would be hard to mention him. He's got to do something with the rest of his life. And you know, it's like what Warren Buffett said, you know recently. You know, how do you I think it

was Buffett, how do you compensate? Or how do you how do how do you get a handle on inflation? Double down? And the thing that you're good at me because you know that the thing that he's good at is playing golf in front of people now, as you exly said. But if he loses a lot of fans along the way by ling down with the Saudias, it means to kind of lose the thing that makes his paid to possible in the first place, and that would lead to questions of to get the worsements again and

everything else. On the other hand, the Saudis some games, so much money, it doesn't matter. Uh yeah, there's so much going on your I know, But for for a consummate showman who always who thrives on the energy of the crowd, Like what kind of crowds are they going to have at these Saudi events? You know, it's it's gonna be sparse. You know, the ticket prices are really high.

I would I thought that they would just let people in for free, but they're definitely they're definitely appealing to a certain demographic, and so they're gonna feel like, you know, it's a shotgun star. It's fifty four. Hold, They're already doing things. They're going to diminish the the feeling of a big time golf tournament, and you add small fans and sort of second rate venues to it. It just

feels a little sad. You know. It's like it's like Jake LaMotta here doing Vegas lounge acts at the tail end of his career. I mean, Phil Mickelson is the

defending campion of the PGA Championship. He can he can play Revere, he can play Pebble Beach, he can play all you know, colonial all his favorite places where he's he's one and he's he's revered and he's beloved, and to give that up to go and and look at I mean even Greg Norman, who It's interesting because Phil and Greg have never really been friends, but they are kind of kindred spirits, and they each of have had their battles with the tour and they're kind of these

iconic class there. They like to think of themselves as rebels and pleaded pants. I mean, there's a lot of overlap in their personalities and even the way they play the game. You know, aggressive slash, reckless cost Norman a lot of majors. It certainly costs Phil a few. Um so it's almost like somewhat inevitable they would team up

on this. But Norman has made himself such a pariah in this this last act of his his golfing life, and his comments week after week about the Saudi's have just been increasingly ridiculous us And you know, it feels like, is this a guy I'm gonna throw in with? Like, am I gonna hitch my entire professional life to Greg Norman? Like he's got to be wondering about that as he watches from the sideline. It's just then, once the option double down on the Senior Tour, and he's bored up

a soons like he's bored out of his mind. There maybe not, but I don't know. I mean, I think if he if he, if he comes back and says, you know, I thought that I was being a really kg businessman here. I had, I had leverage. I was trying to affect change to help all professional golfers. I was trying to reshape the landscape so it would, you know, bring us into the two thousand and twenties. And I was thinking about all my colleagues, and you know, I

might have overplayed my hands slightly. I've thought about it the I don't feel comfortable taking the Saudi money. I love the PGA Tour. It's been an amazing platform for me. I'm just gonna come back play my schedule. I'm here to sign autographs and make birdie's and make people smile, and you know, I'm glad this chapter of my life is over and let's just play golf. I think people be like, yeah, right on, man, hell yeah, let's go go Phil. And I don't think it would be that hard.

And I may hit some bombs for you, hit some bombs you know I'll be I'll continue to beat my stick on social media, which people enjoy, like, uh, you know, as I bump into into casual golf fans at Pacific Grove, Muni and other places sitting on airplanes, a lot of people can't. They want me to explain why is why is Phil in exile? It doesn't even they don't even

get it. They're not falling at that carefully. You know, you and I follow this stuff forensically, but the average golf fan, many of them are just confused, like what

did you do that was wrong? Because there is an element of hypocrisy where every other golfer takes the Saudi money and they get they get away with it, and Formula one races over there and every a million other sports and um, you know, Lee Westwood's out there, uh how talking about how excited he is to go play for the Saudi and he's kind of ska it on it,

like why Phil? You know, he kind of strayed off the script where he was too blunt and he was too honest, and you know, we all roll our eyes when Dustin Johnson says, I'm just over there to grow the game, and I'm a I'm an athlete, not a politician, like, but that's the script and if you stay on it, people will give you a pass because it's been it's

proven effective through the years. Now. But but Phil, you know, he said the quiet parts out loud and so um it's nevertheless, I mean, professional athletes, professional golfers have done far worse and and been embraced again. And so fans are ready to cheer for Phil. They want to cheer for Phil and um, but if he goes all into the Saudias, he gets a lot harder. So this is really a monumental decision for him. And um, you know, I think I think this PG Championship was just a

casualty and the decision making processes. He's still trying to sort all this stuff out. And one of the things that's last year is how correct he use about a lot of things. Um, you know, the weekend a week out of somebody to hold strokeplay events. Um, the Peck Tour is often very boring in my opinion. And uh, and team golf as a concept, cohole golf as a concept, Um, they may work, they may not work. But you know, you and I have tried things in our writing lines.

Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. You really can't kick people for trying something new, which of course is what's happening here because of the overlord said of being the Saudis. But uh well, and the whole yeah, that the PGA tour product has gotten stale as an organization, it's very lumbering and way behind the times when it comes to media stuff. You know, their streaming app is still a mess after all these years. Their social media

is terrible, like because they haven't had competition. They've the tour has grown complacent and the Saudis have provided that that spark and all of a sudden things are happening at the tour and they've been spurred to change, which was kind of Fils larger points all along. And that is one of the tragedies in this is that he was he did have some very valid points and he actually was winning some of these political battles behind the scenes,

and all that's kind of been lost. But you know, Phil saw himself as this agent of change and in some ways he was effective, but you know, he set himself on fire through his his his bluntness and I guess his callousness and um but he is going to be a legacy from all of this where Phil did force the tour to evolve. He may never get the credit for it, but and he knows, and he's never gonna forget that. And I think that's important to him

and his personality needs to be right. And I think that's also one of the things that's drawing him towards the South East is that he still wants to ticket to the tour like he had all these grievances. Then they you know, they forced him on the sideline for for airing his grievances. So you know, he's a guy who loves to double down, whether it's in Vegas or

it's on the golf course. And the ultimate double down MOVI here is to go into the Saudias and say, look to the tour, like I gave you thirty plus years and I didn't get much back other than you know, the money I won. But I had to build my brand on my own and I still don't have my my media and digital rights and all these things he cares about, and so m he'll get he can get

those things from the Saudias. And I think that that that's part of the appeal is he needs to be right, he needs to win this battle, and if he kind of goes back to the tour with his tail between his legs, it'll feel like he lost. So it's complex. Do you think I'll play the US? Maybe because at that point the Saudi question will have been answered. Who's gonna play? Who's going to break the blockade? Um is litigation has that? Has that been touched off? So I

think that that becomes more likely. But um, I don't know. There's people who think he's never gonna play another event outside of the LIBS series, which would be wildly tragic. Can you imagine Phil not at Augusta, like, you know, all the things that were on the table for him to be an honorary starter for the Masters, to be in a TV tower, you know, making Tony Romo money, Like these things are still these things are still available

to fill. I mean there's again, Tiger Woods put his his family, his fans and the game through much worse than Phil Michelson has from the narrow standpoint of the Todderinus of the scandal. And you know, Phil broke some unwritten rules. We didn't break any laws like Tiger did with his d U I and Tiger has never been

more beloved. There is a roadback for Phil, but he has to me very careful what he does when it comes to saudiast because that can evaporate and and those things, those opportunities can disappear because the lovers of power have kind of rallied around the PGA tourn very subtle ways, and they don't want the Saudis to become a part of professional golf. And much like the RNA does not want to give an open to Trump, they do not want to give the Saudis a seat at the table.

And so these things are being expressed behind closed doors. But the little moves they're making, like for instance, you know the Live Golf series, you know they buy into or the Saudis buy into the Asian Tour with this this two million dollar investment, and all of a sudden, the RNA clawback that that automatic exemption into the open

for the leading money winner on the Asian Tour. And that was a very subtle thing that golf fans and even noticed, but it was it was a message like we are not on your side and we're going to try and protect our own. And so it's um It's really an unparalleled moment in professional golf, and somehow inevitably Michelson and Trump are in the middle of it. You know, your your story about Jack that's on fire, but Collective dot Com now you know Jack Nicholas is part of

it too. To tell the listeners what what the offer was for Jack to get involved with the saudis well telling me. I think Jackman is a part of it by not being part of it. And uh, and that's sort of what, you know, one of the points they tried tried to make him the story. But you know, in Tiger and in Trump, you really have to disruptive

people who sort of thrived on chaos. I mean, for those of us who watched Phil's career unfold, he thrived on chaos on the golf course, you know, when things weren't really haywire um, something in his psyche let him pull things off in really exciting ways. And Trump thrived in the chaos too. And this is the most most chaotic moment. I mean, I've been founding him a long time, but people have been flying far longer than I say.

They've never seen a period of total chaos in the game as it is now and it's just so telling that that Trump and Phil are at the center of the chaos. To answer your question, Jack most decidedly is not. And and one of the things that Nicholas told me, and he he first brought this up while talking in a large public setting at the Honda Classic, people just didn't pick up on it, or the public didn't pick up on it um was that he was offered in access, as he told me, and excess of a hundred million

dollars by the Saudi overlords. So this of this golf league before Greg Norman got involved, to play this sort of chairman um face of the tour, and and he said no. And I think by saying no, what he was saying is there's not enough money in the world for me to do that because the pg Tour made me. I have two events on the PJ Tour, the Memorial Tournament and to a lesser degree, the Honda Classic, that

are that contributed charities that that are important. You may and that's of course part of it as well, But what but what you really when I really thought about what this commons where you know why I say no it a hundred million dollars is because he repreates even though he's close to Trump and he's and he's good, has a good relationship with Bill. He represents an American value system that and I may be romanticizing it here, but it's rooted in civility, in common ground, in not

being so divisive. Um. And that's not these times, um, you know when we see it with how Monahan is responding to this threat, and it's understandable Monahan doing what he's doing. Um. But so when you say, you know, you know big Jazz cut a roller, Yeah, Big Jack has a role here by by showing that money shouldn't always carry the day, except for the fact money almost

always does, so it's carried the day. And even in Nicholas's case, Nicholas and an old Palmber and others, they created the modern PGA Tour by doing in a way, in a way what Phil wants to do here, which is they broke away from the PJA of America, the host of this week's Sortament and an event that that that Nicholas won five times in to create the PGA Tour.

But these things are so nuanced because it's not just what you do, it's how you do and what you say, and in the stances that you take in public and a certain a certain civil code that is very much liking now and that really is a bedrock, exactly asset of of what golf has, and we've seen it in other golfing areas because really, the the ethic that I observed and one of the things that drew me in the game in the well forever, really is that the fund and you and I talked about this not the

fundamental starting point of competitive golf is strict, strict adherence to the rules, and once you start taking having attitude of every man for himself in terms of oh can I push this rule or not, we were really getting away from the core value of what golf is in the first place. And unfortunately, um, you've seen that happen. We've all seen that happen in professional golf to some degree limited other cases are but they're happen cases, and

we're seeing that more broadly as well. We're seeing a certain lawlessness and sort of gets back to the point I tried to make earlier that when you see those protesters, it's a fundamental American right to protest peace and to complain and demonstrate. No your displeasure with what our government

is doing. There's nothing wrong with that. But when they but when they went in there with ramming irons and started breaking winners and doors and threatening people and people and getting people up and people and causing mayhem and fatalities, then of course you crossed the line. And that was

the line that law responded to both intellectually animals. But it is interesting because you know, Jack has been building a golf course in Saudi Arabia, and so he's it is it is nuanced as you to use your word, but I guess the differences that was just a little project for his company to take on this role for for live golf would be work not subverting the PGA tour and really again creating this this this dividing line

in the whole game. And so Jack could he's made peace with whatever he has to do to take take the money from the Saudias and his designing life, but um to to subvert the entire world order professional golf that he didn't want to go down that road. So

it is telling in its own way. And of course among celebrity and among big time athletes, Jack was one of the most prominent voices in endorsing Trump reelection, right and so, and you know Mike Pence's staff wrote that statement he put out and uh so, it's it's complex. These tentacles run through so many different ways, from from Trump to the Saudias, through Jack through Phil. And that's what I loved about your story is that it brought it all together and it's a framework to understand, as

you said, this extremely chaotic moment. And um, it just you just wonder is anyone going to survive this? You know, Phil has been besmirched, Norman has um like maybe maybe Ja Monahan is going to emerge as as the good guy and all of this. Maybe maybe by you know, Jack civil disobedience here or not taking the money. I think that's probably redeemed him for some fans and um, but it's like this has gotten so messy and the um it's what what gives this jittery feeling is not

knowing what's next. I mean I was on pins and needles waiting for Phil to announce the p g A and not. We know he's not going to be there, but we still don't know what's next. When is he gonna return to public life? Is he gonna play the Saudi of is he gonna play the US Open? He is gonna play in St. Andrews. Like there's just all these different mile posts out there and we don't know what's going to happen. And um, we still don't know how these terms are gonna play out. Who's gonna show

up for them? When when you know the saudiast start starting, you know, handing out the money, Like that's just the uncertainty and and almost the chaos is really unparalleled, and I guess such a fascinating moment. It's really easy for any of us for you know, you and I on

this conversation. Two, this is sound harsh, but to take this wholier than now position, what would any of us do of NBS showed a better door, like uh, you know, like in one of those gangster movies that you know, I'll pay you a hundred million dollars to your house. You got to move out today. I would like to think I would say no, but I don't know that

I would. Um, you know, well, on I mean on a small scale, you know, as the at the here at the at the collective, we do a lot of fun travel stories and we've been to Scotland, We've been to Ireland and Kauai and all these boards of tourism are are well funded by the governments and they want they want us to help tell their story and that's

part of our business. And and then it's you know, obviously Matchinell has been in the travel space for a long time and he's great at those videos, and we have these talented technicians and um we we say yes, I mean, it's part of our business. But you know, the Saudis did make some fuelers a long time ago, in the early days of the collective, and uh, you know, we're all proud to say the answer was, no, we're not going to go over there and do a fun,

breezy story about you know, golf and Saudi Arabia. And as a as a upstart company that needs revenue, you know, it's hard to say no to anyone who wants to write a big check. But you do have to have a code and um so I mean that that's that's just one of our bedrock principles. We're just not going to take the Saudi money in any scenario. And um

they it now. It was a hundred million dollars I'll say that so um as as I guess get more Commas than Zeros, it gets it gets harder to say no. But at some point you just got to decide what your value system is, right, right right? I think that's what Nicholas showed. Now he is eighty two and blah blah blah, but I think that is ultimately what Nicholas showed. And what's interesting about this week. We're going to have a great week of golf. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday will

all be about the golf. There's no one separating themselves from the crowd, your solciers and different personalities, so you're like, we're not there different personalities. Um think you know, Major Championship golf is engaging and it will be a pleasure not to have to think about this stuff for four days. But I think it's also important to remember that underneath this stuff is bubbling and it's not going anywhere, and

really there's a vacuum of leadership right now. And you can say we wanted about Joe d Or or Deem Beamon or anybody or anybody else, but staid aside from Monahan in a way and Fred Lee at Augusta in a way. I mean, there are some good people leading in the game right now, Mike want with U s g A. But there's no overarching generational sense of we're golf, this is the way we do things. I know I romanticize Arnold probably as a person in his career as well,

But I've said this many times. Arnold he never he was a big major figure. He had a big ego, He made hundreds of millions of dollars from golf. His starting principle was I am not bigger than the game, and it served him well and it was authentic and that is missing right now. Um. And it's troubling for those of us who love the game and who can sort of see that while we play this, while this four days of good tournament golf is going on, there

are nefarious things bubbling underneath it. Yeah, well I think that's that's a great ending point. And how do you like what you said? We had to we had to address all this stuff. It's it's very important context for this golf tournament. Um. And as the week goes on, we'll we'll we'll focus more on people who are here, including guying Tiger Woods. We hardly touched on in this preview piece, but what we'll get to him. Tiger is going to have his moment on on the Fire Drill

podcast for sure. But um, thank you for thank you for all your insight here, Michael. Thank you a pleasure. Yeah, And I would definitely if somehow you wound up on this podcast and you didn't have a chance to read Michael story, I'd really encourage you to do it because it's a big deal for us to be publishing Michael and you know, on fire but Collective dot com and it's really this is a kind of reporting that we want to do on this platform and it's no holds

barred and it's honest and it's real. So um, anyway, it's a highlight for us to have that. Thank you great. So all right, thanks for listening. We will be doing Fire Drill Podcast pretty much every day from from Tulsa, and please tune in for those This is Alan Schipnuk, that's Michael Bamberger. We're out of here. Thank you.