Fire Drill 008: Bamberger! “Phil”! The FPC Is On Fire

And we have some breaking news today. UM, it's a big one for us here at the fire Pit Collective. The dean of the Golf Beat, the greatest living golf writer, a hero to many of us, Michael Bamberger, as of today, is a full time staffer with the FPC. UM For a scrappy little startup company like ourselves, it means a ton and we're extremely excited to um blow out all of Michael's many talents as as it happens, he's here on the line right now, Michael, Thanks for joining us

in more ways than one. Alan couldn't be happier. Thank you so much. I've got my own FPC microphone now, so I really feel like I'm in the club. I know a year or ten years or twenty years ago, you would never expected that I would be someone who would have my own microphone. And yet here I am so thank you for that, Alan, thank you for all your encouragement to uh to get me here, and I'm thrilled. So what was your first byeline back in Martha's Vineyard?

Did you remember the first story you ever had up here in print? Oh? Yeah, it would go yeah, it would go back to the uh mid seventies. Really, uh, writing for my for my local paper, covering the golf team that I played for for our local paper, you know, writing about yourself in the third person, Mike Barnberger shot a fine forty seven something like that, And uh, it hasn't really advanced very much since then. I'm I'm referring to my golf game. Well that maybe my writing as well. Well.

One of my first really, my first gig was uh for the Sealinas, Californian when I was a stringer for high school sports, and um, you know I did. I played basketball and I ran track, but I would cover the football games that my friends were part of at Selia's High and I'd always have inside jokes in the newspaper, and I would always drop their names for no apparent reasons, so it's analogous. But uh no, I mean, you know, for a man, it's well, I don't want to I

don't want to say your advanced age. But for someone who's you know, on the back nine of their career to uh, it's awesome that you're you're taking the plunge here, and um, you know, at our the last year, I felt a little weird because we've been on the same masthead since the mid nineties that Sports Illustrated, and then when I left, when I left Golf Magazine, there was almost exactly, you know, twelve months that we were We were not colleagues. We still had our meals and our

rounds of golf. But uh, you know, why don't you tell the listeners about a few of our misadventures in podcasting? Like everyone remembers the waffle House of Washington Road with the manager bitching at us and Hotel California in the background, But where are some other places that we've done some unusual podcasts. It's really weird what resonates with people. But I have heard about that waffle house session, uh, numerous times. I mean, it's you know, it's our equivalent of Cheryl

Crowe and her Tuesday night sessions. You know, which which UH would which have a certain family. And yeah, you know, as you and I have said many times, alanah side aside him, you know, maybe him and a few him ideas and a few others, there aren't that many people in this world who really understand each other's lives and the uh you know, the weird difficulties and joys of them both. And you know, just thinking about your warm welcome there for a minute, but I often think about

UH six the US Open. UH was at Shannakaka. Grew up in Patrick, which is about thirty miles away along Suffing County, Long Island, and I sat behind a columnist for Newsday named Joe gurg And I know you've got people like this in your own mind. And Joe Geron was on deadline riding up Brave Floyd's when sitting with colleagues and having the time of his life. And you and I've had that experience many many times. And uh,

I remember just last year at the Ryder Cup. Alan, tell me if you remember this, you may not, because we've had discussions like this probably literally a thousand times.

But you and I were sitting next to each other at the Ryder Cup at Whistling Straits and uh, and we're sitting there, we're you know, we got our notes and we got our laptop and we got our fingers, and I just said, it's just a weird, fulfilling, great thing to have this idea in your head and you're going to transmute it if that's a word from your brain to your fingers, into the laptop and then out

into the world. And you know, to me, it was sort of like, you know, our Watson nucleus moment of like, and you were like, you didn't say these words, but this is what it was. This is what you were saying. Yeah, that's what it's all about. Just like Big Jack said to Tom that day. Do you remember that moment at all? I do, Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, the the adrenaline of of writing on deadline. It's still the most powerful drug guy I've tried, and I've tried a few lately,

but Southern California living, I mean a lot. Every morning Karmel was micro dosing mushrooms like you might as well. But yeah, it's uh, it's just the energy of it. And it's more pronounced now with you know, we used to back when we're just writing for Sports Illustrated magazine as are called grick Lips used to call it UH. You know, we have all night. We have sort of had the luxury of time, and that was our biggest advantage. And everyone else had to file their stories right away

for their newspaper and we didn't. We have until the next morning, and so you could really ruminate, and you could spend all night. And I watched the sunrise plenty of times from from press rooms and hotel rooms. But you know, now we're writing for UH, for the internet and and speed kills. I mean, if you take two extra hours to make your story better, you might miss the whole readership that one's gone to bed so um so trying to capture the moment and do it quickly.

And and that went in the rooms doing the same thing. And you know, we all have egos. We want our story to be the best. And it's really it's hard to replicate that feeling. And I'm not going to suggest it's the exact same thing that a golfer feels on the back nine when they're trying to win a big tournament. But it's our version of it, and it is addictive

and it's fun. Yeah, it's see how you and I will compare notes and we often see things in a similar away or we're drawn to something similar in our reporting. We've talked about this, you know, we show up at the same odd spot, just uh, just the two of us, and then to read our stories afterwards, and like the way we write it up is so totally different and sometimes not sometimes very similar. But but no, no, just no, just different, just different, just different takes of different emphases. Um,

but that's fine. Uh, you know right now, for some reason, my mind's going, and I know we bring this up from time to time. We wrote on uh, the US Open at Pebble Beach, what year word have that been? Two thousand nineteen, Allen when when Woodland won? And uh, and we were we both wrote and they were in deadline and then we're in that tavern room at the tavern is what they call alan the tavernet and in

the Pebble Beach club House room the tap the tavern. Uh. For some reason, I'm just thinking right now about after Gary Woodland won the US Open a Pebble Beach two thousand nineteen. We both we both wrote on Deadline and you're a little wired and but also looking to relaxed a little bit. And we went to the tap room um in the in the Pebble Beach Lodge and it was packed and we knew a lot of people, and Jordan's Speed came over and just started chatting us up.

And Uh, just a million moments like that that we've had together that are just fun and make you feel like part of the fabric of the game. Uh and Uh, Anyway, I look forward to doing a lot more of that in the future. Well, you're bearing the lead. We went to the tap room because we were going to record our podcast We're looking a place with a guns, but it was closed to the public. You have to be you haved be staying at the lodge. But because you know,

I've been around Pebble Beach forever, we sneaked in. But there were so many players there, justin Thomas and remember Thomas and speak wood Eventually, yeah, there was a big table that was saved. It became obviously it's gonna be for Woodland, and uh, we kind of detected the vibe wasn't right to put out these giant microphones and podcasts

that we just enjoyed the whole scene. But um yeah, I mean there was an Italian restaurant in St. Louis after the Bell Reeve p GA we were recording a pod and they're like sweeping under our feet, like trying to close up on Sunday night. And I remember we found a weird little nook in the clubhouse at Aaron Hills, Like that's one of the fun things is to find these places that have ambiance and a sense of place. And um yeah, mean that's definitely for for those who

are listening. That's one of the one of our goals here. Mike and I are going to podcast a lot um when in Tulsa, we'll probably do daily podcasts from the PG Championship, just recapping the acction. We're gonna try and bring in some other voices, whether it's Jeff Ogilvie or whomever. And um, you know, we all love your typing, Michael, and it's it's going to remain the foundation of your

professional life. But at your old shop, you're kind of an underutilized asset as far as podcasts and video storytelling. And even social media, which we know we're not gonna get a Twitter, but I'm kind of I'm kind of scooping myself here, but I'm gonna a wash of bamberger Um account that probably I'm going to maintain. This will help us some other FPC staffers and um, just you know, it's it should be a big moment anytime you drop a story like we we got to get it out

into the world. So we're looking forward to, uh to promoting and just getting in front of readers, most of them already are familiar. But um, you know, if there there's been a little lag and in in promotion of you, of your material, so that that's an institutional priority here.

And I know you hate to hear that, but it's true. No, But I'll tell you what does trigger you know, when when there was some talk about me joining Fire Pick Collective and I was, you know, definitely intrigued from the beginning, and there was a little bit of sense like uh oh, and you know, you know, we'll want you to podcast and maybe do some some videos as well, and like, oh, maybe you know I might be resistant of that, And

I truly feel the opposite. I feel like we're in a period now where you want to reach people where they are. And you know, to use Matt's phrase, Mattel's phrase, Uh, our colleague, both n s I and now again, you know what does you say, uh, read, listen, watch. I don't know I have the order correct, but I totally believe that reach people where they are. We have something we want to convey. It's storytelling in different forms, and it's all good. And you see the New Yorker has

embraced that spectacular early. And and I'm very devoted to New Yorker and I do I read, I watched, and I listen. Uh. And so we're gonna we're gonna do the same thing. And I and I and I welcome it. Yeah, it's just interesting. I mean, it's a big investment for you or I to fly off and do a story for just to type it up. But it's a slightly larger investment. But if you bring a if you bring a video crew and you bring your podcasts gear, uh, it amplifies it and it gets people excited about it.

Not even's gonna read the story, but someone watch the video. So I gonna listen to the podcast, and it's just Um. You know Sports Illustrated with slow to embrace that. Golf Magazine was slow to embrace that. But that's really kind of the foundation of what we want to do here is just reach people in a lot of different ways. And so it's gonna be fun to um, you know, to blow it to blow it out with you, Michael, because the reason you're so good on camera is because

you don't try at all. And I mean that as a compliment. You know, the rest of us try too hard, but you literally don't care, and so it comes across as genuine and real in a way that can't be faked. So it's gonna be it's gonna be fun to do more of that stuff. Good, thank you. Yeah. Um, well, I guess this would be a good time to um to pay some bills. So I'm gonna think a couple of our corporate sponsors will help us keep the lights on at the fire Pit Collective. One is a good

Walk Coffee. I think they were the first company that actually advertised with us, going back almost a full year when when we just launched this thing. As you know, Michael, I've always been a hot chocolate guy, but I've lately tried to become an adult and drink coffee, and the good Walk coffee is freaking good. So I would encourage people out there to check it out. And uh, if you use a fire pit code, you'll get a nice little discount. And then that's also par points golf, which

is another great supporter what we try and do. And we got to test this out together, Michael, I think you'll actually enjoy is this new scoring system for golf. It's not based on strokes, it's based on points, and you can't you create your own golf course. It's pegged to the yardage of the whole, so you can play any t you want. You can even drop a ball in the middle of the fairway. The closer you are, the few of the points you get. But it also

becomes strategy. If you're playing against a long hitter, can they carry the hazard but you can't. You can you

can start your hold in front of the hazard. And it's great for beginners and kids who are kind of I think live in fear of the dreaded like triple Bogey and um and also for kids like every video game they play, whatever they do, the point is to is to get as many points as possible, and golf has tried to take the fewest strokes and I think for for for kids, it's kind of like cognitive dissonance. They want the points. So anyway, thank thanks to uh,

thanks to those folks for what they do. Because journalism is is expensive. Then um where we're you're trying to keep this whole thing going. So I look forward to learning more about both those uh things that you just mentioned. Uh. I'm a black coffee drinker and I haven't tried a good walk coffee yet. But but I'm but I'm eager to Uh our son who's a tremendous coffee snob, speaks

of flavor notes and coffee, so I'll be busy. I'll be here to have him and tried it in baron Burger and tell uh, tell me what flavor notes I should be talking about. Um, but and and and as for the what's the other group called part points? Well, part points, you know, I'm not familiar with that. I'm gonna read up on that. That's very interesting, but uh, I have for years UH when playing with like minded UH golfers. I'm surprised you and I haven't done more

of this. And maybe we've done some of it. Uh, winner calls the t So whoever has the honor choose where you're gonna tee off from. And you could, you know, you can take a foreigndred yard Part four and turn into a you know, a d seven yard Part three if that's your if that's what you want to do at any point, and you know, play to your straints or whatever you might want to do. And uh, people need to be more inventive about the game. So whatever

these guys are talking about, I'm in favor of. And um, you know it's easy. Uh. The U s A is an authoritative figure in our lives and always dictating how the game should be played. Uh, but you know it, golfs a lot older than the U. S j A. So the idea of you know, creating your own scoring system, just having the joy the game, the fun of the game anyway it happens. Um, obviously it's part of why we play. So, um, I'll be eager to learn more

about that as well. Yeah, it is sort of freeing because uh, you know, if you're playing a GLIC like there's some courses, feels like every part three is like a five iron, you know, the way they set it up. It's a design flaw and it's like, gosh, I wish this would be so much cooler if you played it all the way back, or you played it as a little hundred yard or and uh, if you're playing off the scorecard and traditional golf, you don't grant yourself that liberty.

But the whole point is to have fun. You might as well play the hole as you want to play it, so uh, it's kind of nice to be given that permission. I don't know why I need that permission. It sounds like you've already figured that out a long time ago, But I just kind of play the courses it's presented to me. But I guess that's kind of an outdated view.

And it's really interesting how at US opens in particular. Um, if the U s JA does have any fun in terms of changing team positions radically from what the practice runs, are players freak out And it should be the opposite. They should embrace the challenge of, oh now I got to figure out something on the on the fly, and the better players would welcome that more. Uh, But they don't,

And I think it's telling. Well. I always think about Jim Fear at the Olympic Club on the final round the year that Webb Simpson won, went on that part five I think sixteen. The tea's way up and it's this big dog leg and he couldn't figure out how to play the whole about of making a killing bogey.

And after we just bitching about it, well, they didn't put the teas there to practice, rouser, how are we supposed to know, We'll figure it out, Jim one of the best players in the world, like number three all time on the money list, Like figure it out. Then I thought it was such a weird complaint. Um, you know, that would be like Tom Brady complaining, well, we didn't

practice against his defense. They threwout us in the fourth quarter, so it wasn't fair, Like come on, man and Marian had that famous when Phil Mickelson, uh struggled with the long part three and Uh, I played the whole the other day with the driver by the way and and drove it on the ground. Who cares. It's still get the ball in the hole and the fewest strokes possible, or in this other form that you're talking about, get points.

So I don't know much about how that works. But yeah, as you say, figure it out, it's part of the part of the joy of the game. That was an A plus humble brag there, Michael effortless. Not only the Mary and tea time, but you know you drove it all the green like that. Impressive. Well, now the guys, the guys started playing with any four are and so it was really a humble bag. It was more like gout a necessity. But you know what, I find that that's a that's a very telling moment from Phil's career.

That's two thousand. It's a final round and um, they put the teas all the way back. Phil had dropped his driver that week because Marian plays short. He added a fifth wedge and he gets up there and he needed more club. He tried to smash his three wood made double bogie, veering off the tea. He got in Mike Davis's face and was barking at him like, bro, you're trying to win the US Open, Savior energy to

make part, not to complain to the setup guy. And even though you know, Davis later told me, well, the wind switched and maybe was into the wind. It was playing too long, and you know, Phil might have had a point, but the larger point is to get to get so distracted and flummix that you're you're in the face of the setup. Dude, when when you got to go like try and win the US Open Like that was a telling moment on Phil, I thought, very much so.

And this will probably a wonderful moment to segue into our raised on debt today. Um uh to talk about your new book, Allan, Uh? Are are you ready to do that? Yeah? Yes, it's you know, the release date now is whatever, less than two weeks away. Thank god. I've been thinking about this book for years and and then you know, we dropped that excerpt back in February and things got a little crazy, and it's been so

much build up. So I'm happy to talk about the totality of the book and not just little teases and and have to hold off like it's cathartic to actually be able to talk about it in full. So I'm ready, if you are, I am. Let's let's just start right there. Because it's the weirdest record in golf to have six runner up finishes in US Opens. The math would you would you would think it is impossible? Uh? For for

that to happen. Um, Now, did you cover all six runner ups or yeah, uh, what stands out most in your mind? Which is the most colossal of them? To you? That is such an inititing question because they all have their their own backstory. I mean, um, you know, shinna cock and O four is some of the best golf that Fills ever played in his life. And you know, the course went over the edge and he made that double bogey on the seventy one hole, And in reporting

this book, I've never heard the story like that. He had a little pebble behind his ball in the bunker and he tried to you know, hit a different kind of bunker shot to miss the rock. His ball came out with no spin and you know, makes a killing double bogey even though he played you know, Tita green probably the best, probably the best ball striking week he's ever had. Um. And he's still rused that one, I

think more than others. You know, we talked about Marion, but you know on thirteen, that little that little part of three feels like five wedges in his bag and somehow he picked the wrong one and he flies the green and it's just like all time growner you know, and we can go through each of them, but you know, I think Pinehurst is the one that that that resonates. I went really deep on it in the book because it was really Phil's first chance to win a major.

There was the whole drama of of Amy about to give birth and bones carrying the beeper, and then you know, losing Payne Stewart so soon after that just gave the whole thing a mythical quality. And um, I hope it's not too much for readers, but I just and Tiger was in the mix, and v J and you had you had David Duval with his singed fingertips from the

scalding kettle. There was just so much happening that week, and um, you know, I I'd talked to Amy and Phil about at length through the years, and um, you know the kind of the life and death that defines that tournament, and I think that one stands out. But you know, it's going through the book and really researching these tournaments. One thing I had forgotten is how many little puts Phil missed in crunch time that really mattered. You know, the seventeenth hole at Pioneers. She's got a

five footer. Um he misses that. Um, you know Bethpage, Uh the first time went with Lucas Glover one. You know he's got like a three and a half footer on the closing holes. He misses that. You know, obviously he the seventeenth hole a shinnecock and you know four he you know, he three puts from five ft there on the seventy feet hole. Like it's just man, he not only was he there, but it was within his

grasp so many times. And then I think probably my my favorite part of the whole book is coming down the stretch at Wingfoot and going through that whole thing in forensic detail and having everyone from Johnny Miller to Andy North to Hale Irwin critiquing phil and Bones and um,

it's just I was out there when it happened. I was standing right there in the eighteenth fairway, and I caught up with film the locker room when he was he just gotten ghostly white and really was probably in some sort of clinical shock, and um, it's just indelible that whole thing. And I love that part of the book. And when when I was I read the audio book, which was his own kind of fun challenge, and when I get excited, like the producer would always like slow down,

slow down. I He's like, I know something good's about to happen because you start speeding up and kept in the Shinnekock chapter. Man, I was like racing. We had to do it over and over because it's just like for me, I almost like I feel like I'm there again and hopefully I can transport the reader a little bit. But um you know, they're just it's the it's his entire career distilled into fifteen minutes really, and it's it's

utterly fascinating on every level. And have so many voices, you know, Johnny Miller, you like on down the line, I think, um, I think it. We all know the broad strokes of what happened. But when you that's the fun of a book. We have a limited h well somewhat unlimited time and unlimited space, and you can just keep bringing in more layers and more layers, and um so yeah, reliving the US opens was was a fun part of the of this tale because it's, as you mentioned,

it's really incredible. On one hand, you wouldn't have given how you know, among the all time greats feel is probably the worst driver of the golf ball, without question. You wouldn't expect him to contend to the open. The fact that he kept throwing himself in there speaks to his his grind and his escapability. Um. But but then he was there so often to never get it done. It's it's really, it's really, um, it's really an incredible

part of his legacy. You know, just the way you answer that question, Alan uh Uh, brings to mind this for me. The book has so much energy, just like your answer that question did. And you know, people are accustomed to writers who love the game and are serious about the game, whether it's Herbert Warren Win or any number of other people going in depth about golf events from yesteryear, and unless you're really dearly deeply into it, it can be very boring. This book is the total opposite.

This book is super conversational, super emotional, very fast to read in the best sense of it. And because you were there, you are there as the reader. I mean, you really feel like the whole thing is unfolding, like you're watching a highlight reel, but with your commentary, your insight and all the people you bring into it along the while so everyone knows at this point who follows the game about Phil and live golf in your role in that we can talk about that later, And that's

one reason to come into the book. But anybody who loves golf and is interested in how this singular career has unfolded would be doing themselves a tremendous disservice if they don't read it because you don't like I'll often say this about Augusta National, this is fantasy stuff. But if you really want to soon Augustine Nashville, you've got to go to a master's, you gotta watch on TV, and you have to have a chance to play the course.

If you've done all three, then you really can you can really sort of appreciate the masters in its totality. If you really want to have some understanding of the struggles of modern golf and the struggles of being Phil Michelson, you really have to read this book. And it's a

total joy. It's loaded with energy as you are, Alan, and uh I feel privileged to have read it early on, and and uh uh and I'm so and I'm so, I'm so glad that you wrote it and uh so so with that in mind and thinking about we we know the qualities of the people who dwell in US opens. There Ben Hogan, Jack Nicholas, Tiger Woods Hailer, when I mean, there are three of the greatest, all similar in highly

intelligent but an applauding kind of way. And then you have this crazy intelligence of Phil Michaelson, which is very left brain, very creative and would like you would think, as you were just saying, would never do well in the US open. And there he is contending again and again. So I guess at least this question, Alan, Um, how would you characterize Phil Michelson's intelligence to somebody? Hm, that's

really interesting. Well, he for starters, he's a great conversationalist, and there's a lot of funny stories in the book about Phil just dominating these dinner parties. And Um, I think it was it was David's love who's told me, Uh, Phil is the only guy who out here who enjoys pro ams because he can get paired with a doctor or a pilot and then he can he can pick up five or six little factoids and then he'll regurgitate him for the rest of his life as if he's

an expert and I thought that was very telling. You know, it's become such a cliche about Phil, but he does want to be the smartest guy in the room, and he loves the sound of his own voice. And um, to his credit, he has quite a memory, you know.

His one of his college teammates told me, you know, Phil definitely has a photographic memory, because he would take my notebook for tests and he would, uh, you know, all all the notes from class and he would study it and you can get a hunters on the test.

And then I'd missed all these questions and Phil would say, it's right there on page six on the bottom, you dumbass, like like it's in your own handwriting, and um, you know, he does have an ability to recall, and me, I can I can think of this was like a parlor trick that Phil used to do when he'd roll into a new city for a tournament and it would be all the local press and you start talking about the roster of their NFL team, and he could go like

one through forty nine, like he knew who the backup punter was and um, uh you know, now was he the night before was he pulling over the roster to make sure he got it right. Probably, I mean, there's his performative but um, he does have a crazy recall for for my nusha. Um. But at the same time it doesn't always serve him well that that need to to show off and to get in the final word. And um, so I think feels a very smart guy.

I don't think he's quite as smart as he thinks he is, but that's part of what makes him fun and ridiculous, and um, it gets him in trouble. You know, we started shooting off his mouth, whether it's about Tiger's equipment, and on the merits, he was probably correct. Then there's a funny quote from Nick Foldo saying saying that, like

what Phil said was hilarious because it was true. He's like Tiger's driver was terrible and um but of course that that's nuance in the moment, Tiger had eight major championships, Phil had zero, and it didn't make sense for Phil to be popping off, right, But you know, was he was he strictly speaking correct, Yeah, Tiger had not maxed out the latest technology and his equipment wasn't fear to feels from a performance standpoint, But Tiger obviously knew what

he was doing and could use it in an effective way. So so shout up Phil. But um, so that that's that's what's the tension in Phil's life is that he always has to be right. You know, he wants to show that to you that he does know what he's talking about, and it gets him in trouble up to including you know, his all the Saudi stuff. So but he's a fun character. You'd rather have that than someone who's brooding and internal and you never know what's on

their mind. And um, Phil will tell you what he's thinking and feeling. And um. You know there's a quote from Stewart Sink in the book. You were talking about the Ryder Cup and Phil's mixed legacy and of course Tigers as well. This this stat blows my mind. Tiger has been on one winning Writer Cup team his entire career. It's absolutely unbelievable because he missed some from injury and and other things. And um, but you know Stuart Sink was saying, it wasn't that Tiger didn't care, as some

people suggested. It was that he had a way of doing it, which was keeping everything close to the vest and he would he thought his job was to go in five points and that was it, That's all that mattered. But Phil wanted to talk everything through, and he wanted to get people invested in the process, and he wanted to to team build, and he wanted to strategize. And there's just the really the difference in their personalities. And you know, Sink said, I would rather have Fiel's way.

You know, that's what it's about, you know, when you're in this team setting. Um so um there. You know, it's just it's just interesting how how different those two characters are, and how how different feels from almost any other tour pro or even modern athlete in his his need to overshare, which is great for for those of us in the typing business. And of course you can engulf as in life, you can only be yourself, uh he. He can't try to be hall Ruin because he's nothing

like Kiler Ruin. Um. But be interested to know your take on this, uh In. Jim, you know, we both spent a lot of time with Jim Bones mcguy. You know, we're both very very fond of him. I would say, when you talk to Bones, his golfing mind is I think less emotional and more, how's the ball sitting? What can you do with it? Where can you miss? Um? When it's all said and done, what do you think bones Is contribution is to Phil his career? Would Phil

have one more or less without Bones? Of course, there's no real answer to that question. But but what's your

overall take on Phil's or Bones contribution Phil's career? Yeah, that was part of the tension of watching them work together, is because they are different and in their constitutions, and I think how they think about golf, and um, you know, I have some fun getting this whole notion that you know, the bones will get one veto and people have heard that through the years, but some of those stories are really funny, and um, I think I think Bones was

such a steadying influence for Phil. And even even if you know, there's a quote in the book from Phil, He's like, if we're between the seven and eight iron and he wants me to hit the seven, I can't live in I want to hit the eight. I can't live with going following his advice and going over the green. I can live with hitting my club and coming up short because that was my choice. And so you know, I think that was it. That's how a lot of golfers are, but it was exaggerated with Phil because there

was so much conversation, so much discussion, so much information. Ultimately, he always had to do it his way. And it's it's amazing that Bones lasted twenty five years and that given that tension. Um. But I think beyond the actual strategizing, I think, you know, feel such a wild card and he's so flighty and and Bones is so rock solid, and it gave him some ballasts you know, day to

day that Phil really needed. You know. Of course he wins w g C with his brother and he wins you know, when Phil went to Tim Michelson as his caddie and he wins the PG Championship at age fifty. So we've seen this many times in golf, where a guy pulls his agent or his girlfriend out in a pinch and they go on to win. We all know the players are the most important part of the equation.

But I think I think Bones brought um an important component to just to fill existence and um, you know, part of I get into this, this duality with Phil and Tiger a fair amount in the book, and one of the things that always hurt Tiger from a public relations standpoint was the people around to him were so disagreeable. You know, Steve Williams is tossing cameras into a pond, and we all know Mark Steinberg's Asian as doctor no

because he never wanted to help reporters with anything. And Ellen Woods was a total cipher who never I don't think was ever really quoted by any reporter except for People Magazine after the scandal um um. Whereas Phil had these people around him who were very giving. You know, Amy is is chatty and fun and she'll tell you things. And you know, Rick Smith, the swing coach, was super you know, media savvy, almost probably too much so he'd

love to be quoted. But Bones was really a key person in that whole equation where he forged a lot of relationships with different reporters and he would tell you stuff you needed in a pinch. And you know, Tiger spoke after every round, good or bad, and he's never

got enough credit for his professionalism. You know, Phil, he played bad, he would storm off plenty of times, but Bones was kind of there to like pick up the pieces and he would fill in the gaps for the reporters and that really helped fill in an important way from a public perception, because, um, you know, Bones was just I mean I remember talking to him two thousand

thirteen US Open Marion. I texted him said I'm trying to figure out what the hell happened on the thirteenth hole, and he called me and told me, And it was really important for my story. Like you know, you're not gonna get that from Steve Williams. You I can't get that from too many of their caddies in the heat of that moment. That just the crushing disappointment. Um, and you know, to be able to have a resource like that for all of us reporters was really important for

for the for telling phil story. And So I don't know would would fill one more or less with a different caddy. That's hard to say, but I don't think he would have had as much good will and I don't think, Um, you know, Bones, if you look at if you go to a tournament, he's more popular than all but probably fifteen players out there as far as

name recognition and fans sentiment. And I mean I did put a podcast with him years ago, and it was like the most downloaded golf podcast that sports had ever had more than other players, just because he's such a good storyteller and such an anecdotal thinker. So, um, yeah, it's there's an X factor there that was important to fill. But would you would have been a Hall of Famer and one of bunch tournaments? You know? Certainly? Um, but um, you know who knows. I think they're so inseparable that

it's hard to think about Phil's career without him. It's very very well said and very interesting, you know. And I'm not surprised to hear that about about how people responded to your podcast of Bones because with Bones, and one would say definitely of Lee, Trevino and Arnold even Uh and others through the years, it is really all about the Gulf and Uh, and part of why we get frustrated with Phil Entiger, you would say the same. And with Phil it is about the Gulf and then

all his theorizing and other stuff. So he's sort of you know, it's part of the joy of Phil, and it is Phil, but it's not that pure, even though he does have a pure obsessiveness with golf. But there's always lots and lots of other stuff. Uh, going on going on with Phil Alan, how do you weigh this? You you obviously have a lot of affection uh for Phil. Um. Some people may not realize this, but you know, if they grow up on the on this really antiquated notion

of you know, the reporter as an unbiased person. Well, first off, we are reporters as a starting point, but then we're more to it, and of course we do bring all of our human experience and center and our motion to it. But so for you, writing about Phil as much as you have, and especially in this book, how do you weigh your genuine affection for Phil and for Amy and for how good he is with reporters, um, with how frustrating and self absorbed and actually difficult he

can be at times. How did you weigh these two things in the writing of the book. Well, that that's what makes feel so interesting is he talked about flavor notes in coffee. He has every flavor note I mean as as a human being. Like if he was just one or the other, he would be far less interesting. But he's everything, and he can be incredibly charming, and he can also be petty and vindictive, and he can be hilarious. Um. And and he he has a great needle and he can be really fun to be around.

And he can also be a total dick, and um, he could be incredibly thoughtful and gracious, and there's just there's so many warring impulses within him. And I think that's what makes feel so fascinating. You know, most of us are we are who we are, and it's it's a little easier to define. But he he runs a gamut of human emotions like uh within and that that was a fun challenge in this book was to capture

all of that. And you know, I certainly celebrate his philanthropy and all his random acts of kindness and his mentorship to young players, and he doesn't He puts a lot of great vibes out into the world and does a lot of really good things, and that's all in the book. But um, he also has a tendency to

be his own worst enemy. And um, you know, all the scandals and controversies are in the book too, And that that's why I think feels a fun character to read about, because he's just so unique and he's he's had a very big life. I mean, um, there's there's just funny things too to get into that I had

forgotten or I never knew. I mean, like you go back to Walker Cup in Ireland and Phil hits a ball into the rough and plays a shot and later a camera camera person interviewer asked him about it and he says, oh, yeah, I don't want to I don't want to hit over there because the irishmen are not that attractive. And it just became an actual international incident,

like Phil had. The Irish consulate demanded an apology that Phil had the tape and on one hand, and it's you know, it's just a little throwaway comment and he was just trying to be funny, but it became such a big deal and it it defined the whole Walker Cup and inevitably Phil's match in singles becomes the most important one, and he's his crazy ass flop shot off a hard pan lie to the last hole to save par to win the match and win the Walker Cup for for the United States, and it's like his whole

life and a microcouse him, like the genius with the golf club in his hand, the recklessness when he open in his mouth. Um. But also it's kind of funny. I mean, like umnent. We have to appreciate it because it's a pretty good line. I have nothing against Irish woman. I've met some very attractive ones. But it's just a funny thing to say in that context no other golfer

would ever say. And um so, like it's totally forgotten and it's insignificant to his life, but to relive that and talk to Paul McGinley and talk to Bob May and David Faye and all the people who are there, Like, it's a really funny couple of pages in the book, and it tells you like that's you know, Phil still an amateur, right, Like that's who he was, And thirty

years later, he's still stepping in it. He's still like creating these wildfires for himself, and um and so to to bring some of these to life and the points not to like kill the guy, Like I think the whole the whole Walker Cup thing is hilarious, but um it was. Did it define that whole week for him and his teammates? Yes? And uh So, there's there's a lot of moments like that in the book where it's just fun to get into Phil's pensiont for you know,

stepping uh stepping on his own toes. Well, you just used a really interesting phrase, and I think a lot of listeners or some listeners wouldn't necessarily know that you were never trying to kill the guy. You are just trying to present the guy as he really is, the whole spectrum of Phil, which is why he's so interesting. But it does segue into into this question. We saw Tiger's life turned upside down. Um, you know, an incredibly short amount of time, we've seen Patrick reads or with

some of these cheating allegations. Uh, much the same. Those kind of evolved over time. In my life, we saw Bill Clinton's life get turned upside down. In my life, I don't think I've ever seen somebody go from being the he did something absolutely spectacular and and and I'll do this very briefly, and then you gave me your

your take on it. Just a year ago, at age fifty, winning the PGA Championship, and not just winning the PGA Championship, but beating Brooks kept go down the stretches, playing part to do on a tough, long, difficult golf course where a lot can go wrong. Now they were wide ferries, there were there were some technical things that that definitely lend itself in his favor. But here's the golfer on the ultimate high. To go from that perch to tumble

down to where he is so quickly, it's absolutely stunning. Um, I would say you played no role in it. Others would disagree with that, But I'm wondering, can you give us your overall sense of what it's been like for you to be a player in this story and an observer of this story, to go from here to here in Shakespearean terms, You've never in the world of sport, you almost have never seen anything like it. Yeah, it's

been a little disorienting, I mean, I'm sure. Yeah. When when writing up all the Saudi stuff in the book, like I knew it was gonna create a buzz and that people would be interested, I didn't think it was so explosive because to me it was obvious that Phil was working both sides of the street and that he

was he was trying to leverage one against other. He was, but that was pretty clear, Um, And I guess the reason that it became such a big deal, as he said the quiet parts out loud, you know, as discussed Phil can't help himself and so if he had just towed the line and said, yeah, we're just trying to grow the game and it's a great vehicle for for

young women in Saudi Arabia to learn sport. And like, all these guys go there and take the checks and they do that and everyone rolls their eyes and knows that's total bullshit. But um, it's like an established script that has been vetted by the public and get away with it. But that's not Phil, Like he's gonna tell you what he thinks. And um, they are ski motherfucker's like, and you know, Saudi Arabia has made over church the fire Pit Collective about doing content over there, and we

said no, like, we don't want to be involved with them. Um, so you have to make your own you have your own little moral compass, I guess. But um, you know, the intensity of the reaction was was a surprise to me. And um, I'm still I'm still somewhat baffled because you know, the whole pg A bunch of PGA tour stars were over there in February collecting their checks and um, but I think Phil was so callous in the way he

dismissed the atrocities of Saudi Arabia. And it was also this, you know, the sneakiness of to be you know, helping this rival league to get set up working against your own home tour. It was the combination that was the one to punch and um. But yeah, it's it's been it's been quite you know, basically a three months since since that strup dropped, you know, leading up until now. And I mean it's taking a toll on me for sure because as a reporter, you never were want to

be in the middle of the story. Like I mean, this happened to you with Michelle we way back when Michael like um, when you know, she took a bad drop and then you you got you became part of that story as well. It's not a comfortable position to be in. But ultimately, you know, your obligation is to the story, to the reader, and to the truth. And so that's that's always been kind of the guiding light. I mean, I've had players mad at me before about

things and that that's part of the job. But you know, fulfill to miss the Masters and it's still up in the air if he's gonna be the PGA Championship, Uh, you know, it's it's weird to have played some role in that, and it's not comfortable and it's not it's not something I relish, but it's you know, my obligation in this was to tell that the story completely and Phil.

I had the goods from Phil, and um, you know, it was a really important moment in professional golf and it remains so we don't know what Scott is all going to play out, but the biggest question was what does Phil want? Nobody really knew except for me, and so we could have left it buried in the book, you know, Bob Woodward style, and it's still no one would even know about all of this, but that just felt irresponsible, Like this was you know, as a as

a reporter, you gotta gather information. You got disseminated, and I have the information and so um or nearly you would not drop an excerpt that that far in advance of publication. But it was just there was a key moment all this for Saudi Arabia and Phil and the PGA tour, and so it's it's led to this long run up where um, you know, it's I'm just I'm

going back to your question. I'm happy for people to read the whole book because it will see as your kind words earlier, I think it's air and balanced, look at a complicated life, and you know we have the totality of a fil when when you when you strip that away and you just have you go right to the Saudi stuff. Um. You know, as you're reading the book, there's almost like this feeling of an inevitability, like something something bigs come in and you know it's in all

the Savy steps in the last chapter. Um. And when you take away some of that context, and people who you don't maybe you know, I don't really know how

you know, Phils clash with the institutions. You know, I get into all his stuff with the U. S g A. I get into his battles with the PGA tour like he's always been kind of a a rebel in his own little way, and this this is just the the culmination of you know, a decade or more of sort of of civil disobedience and as far as you know, as far as Field goes, so m but you know, the extrapt kind of lacked some of that context and so that I think that has given people, you know,

maybe the feeling like this book is like the point us to takedown Phil and that thought, it's just a presented for who he is, and excuse me, who he is can is complicated. He can be manipulative, if he can be he can be uh, he can be greedy, he can be all those things. Now there's a whole

other side to him that's presented. But um, you know, when when that story dropped people and didn't have that part of it, and so um, I'm just relieved that the whole book is going to be out there now and people can can see that the context of of of all that Saudi stuff and and really within a whole, big, complicated life. Do you think he's suspended from the PGA

tour right now? Well, that's a matter of semantics. Um. You know, when when all that stuff was going down, someone very close to Phil texted me, now the pd toy wants to suspend him. Um, so did did he jump before he was pushed? You know? Is it? Is it a leave of absence of his own making? I'm you know sure, but if if you had, if if you had played in a different way than it probably would have been an official suspension. And how they leave

it for various bureaucratic reasons. I don't even know officially what to call it, but clearly the tour was bringing the hammer down on him for you know, conduct unbecoming and uh so I would say it's a de fact of suspension, but whether it actually counts as one only Phil and Jay Monahan probably know that. But beyond conduct unbecoming, based on your own reporting, your own conversations with Phil and understanding of the PGA tour, what would really be

the offense? And I'm asking this having my own theory, but I want to hear you discuss it. But I don't think people really understand this. And I think once you answer this question, if they're really listening, they will get another sense of it. What would really be the offense that would get Phil Mickelson suspended from the PHA tour? Right now? Yeah, I know it's very nuance gets you know,

we're all so close to it. But if if you rock up to a like a municipal course and you get paired with some guys as I did about a month ago, and they're like, so, why is Phil suspended? What did he do wrong? It's hard to articulate it because he didn't break any laws. Now, he broke someone written rules, but we didn't break any laws. I mean, you know you were talking about his fall from grace. I mean, uh, you know, ray Lewis was out on the town and a dude got killed and he was

right there when it happened. And he came back and won a Super Bowl and his his beloved TV commentator. And I mean, in the in the professional sports world, athletes have done horrible things and they've come back and

almost skated on it. And you know, Phil's take taking this big reputational hit and he's been in this this exile and um, I mean there is language in the PGA tour by laws about, um, you can't bring the game into disrepute essentially, and I quote this from Tim Fincham and context of Phil's gambling, but I think you can also make the argument that he brought the game into disrepute. But um, there's also language to the effect that, you know, you can't have any actions detrimental to the

business of the PGA tour. Um. Can can I interrupt for just one saying let's let's talk about that last clause that you just said, because even though it might sound bureaucratic and maybe even boring to tour your listener on a corporate sense, that is really a serious offense in others, Let's let's go let's go a little deeper on that. On that one sentence you said, what you

really mean by and how it played out in real life. Yeah, I mean Phil was clearly working against the business interests of the PGA tour, you know, by helping this establish this rival league and being a recruiter and you know, helping with the by laws and all of that, and that that could have a monumental impact on the tors ability to attract sponsors and to pay its players and charitable giving and so that that ultimately is the the

crux of the matter. And you know, I was talking to um, a pg tour veteran who knows feel really well, and he was piste off and I said, you know, why is everyone so mad at Philly. He's like, because he tried to funk the tour and he tried to fuck us and that was it. And and later in that conversation, you know, getting into I said, you think people are gonna forgive him? I mean, Tiger objectively put his family and his fans through a lot worse, and he did break the law, you know, with his d

U I and all that, and he's never been more beloved. Um. He said, Well, the difference is, you know, Tiger's always supported the tour and he's always supported us like he's like Tiger had more juice than Feels ever had, and he he could have probably started his own his own circuit and has his own tournaments, but he always was loyal to the PG Tour. And from the player's perspective,

that's the betrayal. Um. You know, the fans that might be that might be too nuanced, but um, you know, that's why it was really interesting the silence that followed all these um, all these you know, uh revelations, was you didn't see any players defending Phil um and uh, they really kind of closed ranks because for them it was about the business and he was messing with their business and um in a way that Tiger never has or never would. And so they will forgive all of

tigers trespasses because he's made them rich. But phil is trying to take money out of their pocket on some level, and so that that's the fundamental break from in the in the business of professional golf, because I probably got fourteen or fifteen texts or d m s right after that stuff dropped from players or caddies or agents and they all said some version of thank you, like you did this all a great service by showing the world

what what Phil has been up to. And I thought that was really interesting, Like not a single person was like, um, you know, was mad at me? They were They were actually um. There was a sense of Catharsis, like Okay, now all the cards are on the table and people really know what's happening and they can make up their own mind about it. So I thought that whole reaction was quite fascinating. Where do you think it goes from here? Alan? Uh?

If you were Phil's advisor, Uh, what would you suggest that he due to regain his public life if that's what he wants. Yeah, I mean it's going to be very complicated if he fully embraces the Saudi Tour in a way that a lot of us think he's going to. I mean, if he goes all in and plays all eight events, um, after the things he said about them, and we all know his true feelings, it really does set them up as to be kind of this. This is a moral mercenary. Now every other player in the

field it would be guilty of the same crimes. But you know, for fill to have taken such a strong stance and been so open about it, um, it's complex. I mean I would advise him, you renounce the Saudi's pledge, your fealty to the PGA Tour and say, you know, hey, I was just trying. I thought I was being a really kg businessman. I was trying to improve the whole

dynamics professional golf that would benefit all the players. And the kind of part of the tragedy in this is he had some good points, and he was doing those things in a way that could have helped think the professional golfer as a group. Um. And we can all agree the PGA Tour needs competition and needs to rethink its model in a lot of ways, and Phil is

helping to apply that pressure. Um. But um, I think he what he woefully underestimated was the emotion around Saudi Arabia, which did supply you know, fifteen of the nineteen nine eleven hijackers and did assassinate a Washington Post journalists who lives in the United States and among the many other

atrocities that they've been a part of. And so, um, I think Phil just thought he was he was just it was negotiation, but he he didn't realize that it's it's much deeper than that for a lot of people. And so if he goes all in with this outis

that the image reclamation is going to be complex. But um, even so, I think if Phil comes back with a little bit of humility and he becomes a little more human in all of this, because he'd become such a cartoon character in the last few years through social media with all his preening and all the talk about his bombs and his calves, and it's also like he's having a midlife crisis and um, always missing was like the

red sports car. And um, you know if I think that, you know, sports fans love a comeback, they love a redemption story. Phil does have thirty years of accruede, you know, goodwill he can draw upon for many many people in the game. Um, what he says and how he says it and what he does is it gonna be really important. And you know, I the people around him, I'm not sure they get that. I hope he's hired, like some outside advisors that can walk him through this reentry into

public life. I think that would be really helpful. I mean because if his public statement he put out, you know, five days after the excerpt drop, you know, sort of this non apology apology, it was a total mess, and I mean it kind of it kind of read like a midnight Donald Trump tweet. You know, it's just all over the place. And it didn't quite you know, he was he has made himself a martyr, and it was it was that was not a good start. Now, obviously

it was an emotional time. There's a lot going on, but it clearly read like he had written that himself, which, um, it's not a terrible thing. You wanted to be genuine from the heart. But he needs a little help and a little guidance and um so we'll see. I mean, it's going to be fascinating, Um how he's going to

come back and and where and when? I mean, whether it's going to be the PGA, is going to be the first Saudi event in London, It's gonna be the U s open that follows you know, around the tree to gust that some people are saying, now he's gonna sit out the whole year because I don't think he's just worried about my book. He's about Billy Walter's book, which has coming probably the end of this year. And you know, I sent Philip copy of the book a couple of weeks ago, like he's he has it in hand.

I think he'll see that. Um, it's much more balanced than he might be fearing. And there are other revelations to come, but nothing that's gonna do the damage of the Saudi thing. And so, um, you know, I wish I could, I wish I had some insight into what he's gonna do. But um, I'm just on the sidelines like everybody else, just watching with with great uh anticipation and interest. What's your sense of what could be in

the Billy Walters book. Well, people have kind of misunderstood that relationship where that they feel like, you know, Billy was Phil's bookie, but in fact that you know, they were partners and they would they would bet together, and I mean so Billy knows everything about that part of

Phil's life. And they were also friends, and they play a lot of golf together, and they had a relationship that went beyond that and and so whether or not Phil could have saved Billy Walters in that insider trading case, Um, you know that that will never know that because he didn't testify. If Phil gotten up and testified that he never got insider information from Billy Walters, which they both

have contended in their their statements to government. Um, you know, investigators and others that would have helped Billy, but would have would have saved them from going to prison, We don't know that. But in Billy's mind, you know, he Phil kind of sold them down the river. And so there's a there's a grievance there, and where I was trying to write a very balanced look at Phil Michelson.

That's not Billy Walter's intention. Like he's got scores to settle, and um, so whatever he knows is is going to be in the book. And um, he knows a lot. So But on the other hand, you know, I detail some of the stuff in in my book. I mean, everyone knows if Phil likes to gamble. Um, I was able to. You know, one one piece of news that's in the book that's important is the scale of his losses.

And as part of the insider trading case. You know, Phil was subject to this this government audit and um, you know I had a source who had direct access to these documents. And so there's a four year period they scrutinized from two thousand and ten to fourteen, and Phil claimed a total of forty million dollars and gambling losses in four years. That's a lot of money. Um, you know it was says, oh, Phil could afford it.

I mean, if you do the math and back then Phil is making roughly, you know, low forties millions of dollars. Won't you pay your taxes and your agent and your caddy and you maintain this fabulous lifestyle, the jets and the mansions and the memberships and the private schools for your kids and you name it. You're not left as much as people think. And to lose ten million dollars

um annually, and that's that's just what was reported. You know, we don't know what we don't know, like um, clearly, UM, there's been some substantial financial pressure from from the gambling losses and so and trying to understand why this this Saudi seduction is so appealing to fill I mean we know that he's he's had these grievances with the PGA tour and this was a chance to maybe reshape some

of those dynamics. And he certainly is I think, enjoying sticking to the tour in that regard, but it could be more necessity than than people understand. And so I think my book will will shed some light on that stuff. I know it will. But you know, Billy Walters is gonna have more information, he's gonna have more numbers, and he's gonna have more stories. But how damaging that's going

to be, you know unknown. But um, I think you know, after people read this, after they read my book, they'll understand that that there's the gambling was is a serious thing and Phil's life and um and I'm not sure how much Billy's book is gonna amplify that. I mean, it'll there'll be more detailed, but um, I don't know if it's going to change the narrative that much. But you know, there's so that that there's just so much

we don't know what calculations Fills making. And on the other hand, maybe it's as simple as he this this suspension slash leave of absence is gonna end, and he's gonna just come back and play golf because that's what he does. And um, the lack of transparency from the PGA Tour is problematic here. Uh you know whether the PGA of America would would honor such a such a

directive from the PGA Tour, that's unknown. You know that that that's a long complicated relationship between those two organizations.

So we have another nine days as we're recording this, until Phil has to commit to the PGA Championship, and he may take it down to the wire, but uh, it's gonna be it's gonna be quite something when he comes back and again fills these these these warring impulses to over explain and to to game the system versus can can he can he show some actual contrition and some reflection and and and maybe see where he might

have gone down the wrong path? I mean, his his only public statements so far, it doesn't really offer a definitive answer to that. Let's talk about that sameing for a one minute, because something in it that was just personally upsetting to me was when he says, in a passive voice, there is the problem with off the record comments being used. I know you, Alan, you would never use off the record comments for publication. None of us would, uh,

and you would. There would never be confusion about what's on the record and off the record in this context, because you would have to have a discussion, and you would. I don't want to be I want you to tell us, but but knowing you and knowing how I operate in these things, to really speak off the record about really sensitive matters, it has to be a two way street. There has to be there has to be an agreement.

So for it's outrageous for him to use the one phrase that the public thinks they know off the record comments being used. So let's just talk about that for a moment, because I think people should know this about about you as a reporter and writer, and especially as they as they go into the book, and they want to know the value systems, of the value system of the person who has who has who has written the book. You're writing a biography, a sort of informal, casual, athletic

personal biography of of Phil Michelson. You've tried repeatedly to get them um and you have it back and forth with them, and it's always maybe, no, I don't think so, maybe I don't know. I think so, and you're getting from Phil and you're getting from his lawyer's plural and then the phone rings take us into that moment. Where were you, what was the setting and how did you

handle it? Yeah, that was interesting. I was actually I was driving home from the Wishbone brawl down in Oceanside, California's on I five and I had three of my kids with me because they came down. It was just a weekend in San Diego to have some fun and Phil, you know, we'd had a text volley we said you want to talk. I kind of had an inkling when he was gonna call, but not really and um so I pulled over and had my my daughter Abbey drive

so I could pay more attend. I sat in the backseat so I could really focus on on this interview. And um so just the setting was was unusual. But you know, you can't control when someone's gonna call you, really, and I'm not gonna try and reschedule it for the next day, when when when you get him, you get them. So, um yeah, you know we we have this correspondence and

you know it was preceded by his lawyer. Um basically making me a job offer to help Phil take on the tour in their in their media rights, and so but Lorie and I have these discussions about and of course I said, I can't do that. I can't take you know, Phil's money while I'm writing a book about it. It It made no sense like that that was so quizzical to begin with, but quizzical slash manipulative very much so,

very much so. And that I mean that that's what's important understand is Phil never opens his mouth without an agenda. And you know, same as the same as lawyer, they're they're always working an angle, and same with his agent Steve Loy, Like you know, there's there's a sense that they're always trying to play you in one way or another, and there's a back and forth and there's a there's a banter, and there's a repartee, and it's you're always like jousting with them. And that that was a that

was a feature of this book, I mean. And as you were saying, like I had so many people came to me who wanted to to uh talk about different parts of Phil's life. Many of them wanted to speak off the record or or I could use the material, but I couldn't use their name. And I had these ornate agreements with so many different people about how the interview would be conducted. What were the terms? You know, there was this high roller and Phil's orbit who wanted to speak to me. I went to go see him.

Not only could I not bring my phone, I couldn't even take notes, like he wanted no trace that we'd ever spoken. You know, it was like Coak and Dagger stuff. So with all these people, you know, they would set the terms and I would I would push back or i'd i'd accept them where I would decline because it didn't feel right, like whatever it was. So I've been doing this for over a year, and you know, Phil text me says he wants to talk. Great, he calls

me up and he just starts talking. And in the context of me having asked him repeatedly to speak for the book, I mean, definitely, anything he tells him me is going straight into the book unless he and I agree otherwise. I mean, that's that's to me. Is is so basic. And but he never set any ground rules. He never said he wanted to go off the record. He never said this is just between me and you. Or any of those other euphemisms, like he just opened a vein and told me everything. So um, I was

surprised in the moment by his candor. And you know some people have said, well, look at his language. You know, he went he wouldn't speak like that to report, but Phil is like super profane in private. And even you know, Steve Stricker talked about this at the Ryder Cup because you know, they were on their little earpieces talking. He's like, anything that Phil said this whole week I can't say out loud because you know, he's got this buttoned up image and I think sometimes he just has to let

it go. And so I've had other interactions with him like that, where um, you know, it's it's not quite the what he presents to the public. So um, yeah, it was. It was remarkable, but I really it felt

like he was unburning himself. You know. Uh. He did ask when the book was coming out, and I said, I told him it was gonna be in May, and it was pretty clear that point the Saudi stuff was going to be done and dusted and announced, and so you know, my analysis is that he wanted his his true feelings to be known and he wanted he wanted. It was a tip to you know, a little nod to American sports fans, like, I know these are bad guys, but this is just strictly business, and it's just a negotiation.

I'm trying. I'm trying to get what I need and what I want, and I'm trying to help the other people out. And um, you know, if it could have gone either way for Phil, right, like if if you, if you, if you went all in with the Saudis and there was this public outcry, then these comments would have been him saying, I get it, I understand, but listening,

you gotta do what you gotta do. And if if he had stayed with the PGA tour, which could have been looked like a political defeat at least, then he would have told me, like all the concessions he got and all the battles of Monahan, and so he was kind of working both sides of the street, and you know, I think that was ultimately his motivation. Um. It's interesting though, because enough people have asked me this, I've had to reflect on it. Like they're like, do you think Phil

was drunk when he called you? And you know, it was a Sunday afternoon during football season. He sounded perfectly normal, and he sounded as as himself. I couldn't speak to that. I didn't breathalyze him. But it's like he wasn't drunk. I don't think he was drunk. I think he's he's a very He's not that kind of drink. He's not that kind of drink or anyhow. No, he's not. He's more of like a red wine with dinner kind of guy.

I don't I don't take that seriously. I just think there was an element of him being uninhibited that was thrilling for him. And you know, he in this public statement he said it was reckless. You know, my my comments were reckless. I think that's kind of the point. I mean, like, we know fills an adrenaline junkie, and he could have told any reporter in the world his real feelings about the Staudies. Why did he call me, the one guy who was writing his biography, Like, you know,

I didn't bug his office. He called me to tell me this stuff because he wanted me to know it, and he did the math. He did the math. Well, the book's not coming out un till May. The Live golf thing will be off and running by that point anyhow. Uh so he knew exactly what what he was doing. It's wild though, it really is, and it's me would play out but go ahead, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. He

definitely underestimated the blowback. And you know, the the excerpt came out when it did for the reasons we already discussed so um, but I think ultimately he just didn't understand the emotion surrounding this issue and that that was that was you know, Phil thought he again he was being the smartest guy in the room, but he didn't quite recognize how people really feel about Saudi Arabia. And so it's a it's a fascinating chapter. And you know,

we're we talking about this whenever he comes back. I mean, how he how he game plans his return of public life is gonna be fascinating. Hopefully it's it in southern Hills that would be fun. So uh, keeping in, let's end here with a wrap. Let's wrap things up here with with the lightning round of of quick questions from me um and as you think about him, uh, and I hardly need to say this to you, but people do reinvent their lives all the time. We've seen it

with a Rod. It's amazing what he's done after the scandals he's been through. We saw with with Bill Clinton, We've seen it with Tiger Woods. But then we see people who you never hear from again, like Barry Bonds and various others. So with with all that in mind, uh, Phil Mickelson was a luck, an absolute lot to be a writer, Cup Captain. Uh do you see him ever becoming a writer? Cup Captain? Yes, definitely. I think this is gonna be a blip in the in the larger

legacy of Phil Michelson. And it's it's a couple of sentences in in a three page Wikipedia like you know, there's a recency bias and because he's been away and we have to fill this vacuum. But he's gonna be He's gonna be a writer, Cup Captain. I think he'll be in the eighteenth Tower of CBS if that's what he wants. I mean, he'll come back and he'll people be reminded of why they like him, and um, he'll survive this. He survived myriad controversies. I think this is

just gonna be another one. He went a p h A championship at age fifty? Do you see him contending in future majors? Could you could you see him winning a major? And episode which one? Yeah? I mean Phil's dangerous. He still has club head speed, which he wants to tell you all about, and he still has magical hands, and he has the know how and he's not afraid. Um, you know, those those are those are quite a suppotent combination. And so I can see him at at the right

Open Championship set up being dangerous. No one plays AUGUSTA National better. Uh, you know, I feel like those are going to be his two best chances. But no one would have ever guessed he would have won on the ocean course, which is booby trapped with all kinds of horrors, and he navigated that so skillfully. So any time he tease it up, he's a threat. He's not going to be a week end week out force, but he's definitely dangerous.

And you know, just as Tiger needed another mountain to climb and the most recent car accident gave it to him, Phil now for the first time in his life, is mounting a comeback. You know, he's never had any injuries. Um, he's never been away from golf like this, so he may come back hungrier and more rejuvenated than he's ever been. So yes, I feel still dangerous. Uh fil in the future, does he make more money on the golf course or

from the coffee business. Well, I talked to a guy it's not in a book, but who is a venture capitalist who said, I think I think, you know, for Wellness could be a billion dollar company. Um, And so, uh, I haven't tried it. You know, I'm loyal to good Walk Coffee, as we discussed, but I'm sure you know, there's there's so much in that that's gone into making this as a as a healthful product, and we all know that's that's all the raids And um, I don't know.

And I think I'm not sure how much is gonna make on on the golf course. Now, he's got a

lot of endorsements he needs to reconstitute. And by the way, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if Phil comes back and has draft kings on his hat, like this may be what he needed just to be like you know what, I just want to be who I am and I've just I've kind of been playing this role for a long time, and I'm tired of playing this role and this is this is a chance to reset and be me, Like maybe they'll go all in on on on, you know,

and and kind of tweak his public persona. And he's a little bit of a hell raiser and it it's it's been well disguised, but it leaks out here and there, and maybe he's maybe this is set him free in some ways. But um yeah, if if for Wellness becomes a billion dollar company, then I like his chances to catch that in more than he's on the golf course. That's a really good insight on because we've seen in

recent years Phil had Phils go to fallback position. Life was oh shucks, oh shucks, mohucks, and then he became badass Phill with the aviators and this leak body and the tight shirts and all the rest. Uh, So he's been moving this direction of this is the real me. I'm a sex figure, I'm Phil. It's a little hard to take seriously, but he takes it seriously, so so it does better. Okay, last thing for you, You're gonna have a coffee get together. Of course, each of you

is gonna bring your own coffee. He's gonna bring his, you're gonna bring yours. Uh, what would you want to say to fill directly banded man face to person person face to face. That's a great question. I would say, Listen, I'm sorry you've been through all this, and I have empathy for you and I'm not dancing on your grave. I mean, this has been a challenging time for me

to to see this all play out the way it has. Like, UM, you know, I don't have regrets in the reporting, Like my job is to tell the truth in this book, and I think I did, and um, you know, Phil kind of created his own reality, but um, I honestly did not think it was gonna send him into exile, and it would it would turn his life upside down, and UM, I would tell him, like, you know, I

have I have. I still this book was written with affection, and I still have those feelings for Phil, even though he impugned my professionalism and all that, Like, uh, you know, there's there's amotion there and I'm not out to get him. That's never the point of this book. And I hope he can read it with an open mind and and see that it was written with UM you know, basically written with a smile, because I've always enjoyed writing about Phil. I think he's a super fun character. He's made our

professional life so much more fun. Um. And I have no negative feelings towards a guy. But um, he may you know, that may be hard for him to believe, but that that's from the heart. I would say, you have a lot of positive feelings about him. I mean, yet that's been true. Anybody who's listening to this conversation with having would would know that. And I don't think you just knowing you, I don't think you if you're feelings are only negative about him, you would never want

to write this book in the first place. It's the it's the range of his personality that drew that draws you to him in the first place. That's true. I mean, to write a book about one human being, is it? Is it? You have to spend so much time with that person in your brain. And if I really thought Phil was just a dick and all these other things, um, I wouldn't have gone down that road. But he's a fun character and it was fun to write about him,

and I had a great time in the typing. And I mean literally, I'd be at my desk eleven o'clock at night when of my kids were coming for a snack and I'd be like laughing. I'm like, what are you laughing about? Is that this story is a ridiculous listen to this not reading this thing? Like whatever, Dad? You know, they don't they don't care. But um, you know some of the tales about Phil are so hysterical and um. So yeah. That That's what I hope you will take away from this book is that it's just

a fun read. Um, There's there's some serious moments, there's there's a there's a little bit of a dark side to feel that is captured, but there's also a lot of light there and um, and so that that was was the challenge, was to capture all that. And you know, between the two covers of a book, I think for you and Phil, I think this copy get together. It could be the start of a continued beautiful relationship. Phil. Phil being Phil and Alan being Alan is a very

powerful combination. I'm gonna leave it to you from here, all right. Well, thanks for all the thoughtful questions, Michael. That was fun, and I will I will before we sign off, I'll just tell our listeners if from Southern Hills, Michael and I will be podcasting a lot, So if you enjoyed this conversation, we're just gonna keep keep our conversations going in perpetuity here so you can listen to the Fire Drill podcast and we'll be bringing all kinds

of things to life from from Southern Hills. Of course, you know, Michael and I will also be writing daily for fire Pit Collective dot com and who knows what other surprises are in store. So thanks for listening, um, and hopefully we can do this again soon. So thanks for your time. Mike, thank you. Put another log on the fire and we hear is getting time