Fire Drill 001: Tuesday at the Masters with Geoff Ogilvy

All right, boys? You know the fire pit obviously, and you've been a part of what we've called fire drills. Alan same Michelson wins at the j Championship Michelson's book excerpt. We like instead of doing a five traditional fire pit podcast, multiple voices telling one story, we feel like this is the great week to launch the official fire drill, which around major championships, so daily pods around major championships or

major news. It gives us the freedom to sort of get the same audience and and telling a different aspect of of storytelling around the game of golf. So here we are at Augusta, Georgia covering yet another master's being a part of yet another master's with Jeff Ogilvie, Allen Chip nuok and myself. It's fun. Yeah, I love the immediacy where we can just jump on a pod when

something happens. I think it's gonna be it's gonna be a fun way to to talk about a lot different things with a variety of different hosts and voices and guests, and it's going to be kind of free flowing and you can have a better we guide to the Masters in Gusta, Nashville and Jeff Ogilvie, who loves this place, and do you want to talk about two thousand eleven when you made a spirited run and winning this thing. But how about the fact that he's just out of

the country. You're you're moving around, you've been you've been going to the island. You know, we've been stuck in too and soon off use yeah two use hard to like too, Yeah, I mean really stuck. There was a couple of times three month periods where we didn't leave our house really in uh Melbourne, So that would that would being pretty tough on us, but you know, it was all in the spirit of saving people's loves and stuff.

So yeah, it's kind of weird to move away from the US just expecting I was just gonna pop back a few months later and a few months later and becoming guy as I play as an officer to been stuck. The biggest disappointment was you not defending your title at the Wishbone Brawl at god Hill Park where last we saw you, you aced the ninth toll in a playoff to beat Dean Wilson and Andrews Shoffly with your partner

Chris Riley. Obviously a good opportunity to share some love for John Ashworth, link Soul Jeff Cunningham, co creators of links Soul, who uh and Ashworth obviously being the caretaker go Hill Park, they made a shirt. They told me to give this to you. They've made a shirt for Lee Elder's family and specifically his wife have some financial troubles, so Linksoul made a shirt that all proceeds to the to the cell selling of this shirt will go to

Lee Elder's family. So he played in his first Masters in anyway, this is a shirt for you from from John Ashworth and Jeff Cunningham. And for those who are listening and can't see this, that is it's got like some boss like nineteen seventies, like graphics you've got you got Lee and Green and that's pretty sweet. I'm gonna have to nag one of those. That's the part he made to get into the Masters, really forcing their hand because a tournament went would then be exempt into the Masters.

So I recognize that it's beautiful. You know, this is what links Soul does and it's one of the things they do best, which is creating, you know, creating apparel for a cause, like they're doing for Ukraine, like they did for throughout the pandemic, and now what they're doing for Lee Elder. So I forgot Hill and for the Junior Caddy Academy and raised a hundred fifty dollars this year at the Wishbone Brawl for North County Junior Golf. So much love to John Ashworth, Linksoul, Jeff Cunningham and

everything that they do. And they're big sponsor of everything we do at the fire Pits. So thanks to them. I love it. All. Right, let's talk about the good stuff here, which is the Masters. So let's just jump right in two thousand eleven because I think that's one of the most underrated Masters ever. Um let's just set the stage here. It's at a different point on Sunday, eight guys had a share of the lead or the outright lead, and Tiger starts off the Sunday going out

in thirty and sets augusta National on fire. Get himself back in contention. Schwartzel hits one of the all time greatest shots of Master's history, that sort of bumping run from way short and right of the green stars out for Eagle, goes number three, no for Bertie, and the number three holes out for Eagle. So he flies up the leaderboard. The guy sitting with us here, Bertie's five in a row on the back nine to snag a

piece of the lead. Like, just take us through that that whole day from your perspective, just the roars and the feeling of getting yourself in the mix. Yeah, well, I mean that was I don't know, six or seven masters infamy, and I hadn't had the rules that I all talked about. Really, you know, you get the odd one here or there. But that day I'll play with Freddie.

I can only tell it from my perspective. I didn't say Shorts were doing all his thing, and I didn't say all the rest of his stuff, But I was playing with Freddie on Sunday at the Masters, which is the best drawing golf front, like, it doesn't get any better than that. Sort of four or five groups before the and maybe Tiger was in front of us, and Tigers set the whole day up from our perspective, because he's a group in front of us. He was I think four under after six or seven and then eight eight.

You can see for anyone who's never been there, you can see from the eighth too, or the seventh grain and the eighth t. You have the look all the way out the eighth and as we were going from the seventh grad of the eighth t, we see Tiger hit his second shot and you can see him at this big hook around the corner on eight and it just goes quiet and then all of a sudd it feels like two minutes later you hear the row because the ball takes so long from it lands and rolls

are well on the right edge of the green, went down to like this right like I went down like four ft or something um and you just heard it getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And you knew walking to the eighth t Tigers about to make eagle on eight, you can just tell. And that's the first time on this course I'd ever noticed that you could tell what score wasn't only that someone's

done Tiger has done something good. You knew it was a three, not a four, just by the way it sounded. And he makes eagle on eight, and you hear the cheer up at the roar up at the green. But then you hear the rules, the subsequent rules around the course as they put the numbers up on the leaderboard. So you hear the one on eighteen that goes nuts, and then you hear the one down at eleven and twelve and goes nuts, and then you hear the one at sixteen. You can hear this sequence of rules across

the course. It's just outrageous. It's just like, now I know what they're talking about. This is special um. And I don't think I was playing that particularly well at this point. I can't really remember. UM sort of struggling away and I was kind of out of it. And I got to twelve, I think, and I was no chance going to win this tournament, Like there's just no way,

Like I was. There was lots of people Tiger. I think three part at eleven or twelve didn't um, so he kind of went away, and Charles was up there, and I think Jason was up and about, Scotty was around, Locdonald was around, Bob and Pelt was around. I mean, there was names everywhere. And I birdied twelve, which is a bonus um and I can't really remember thirteen and fourteen, but I know a birdie them both. And then fifteen I had to lay up. I drove it left, which

was my tendency on fifteen. Unfortunately on I pull it behind those trees like you see a lot of guys do. It's pretty easy to do because the right trees you've got no chance. Left sometimes you've got a chance. Anyway, I had to lay it up, which is a nightmare, but it had a really great wedge to like ten feet mate Bertie. And then so I'm now one back walking to and now I'm now I'm actually in it, I feel like. And then playing with Freddie, we both

hit that shot on the famous holder. I have to stop you because there's that Janet scoreboard by green, so there's no doubt where you stay in the tournament. So when when you make that Birdie pot fifteen. What is the adrenaline series? Like, holy shit, I might win the Masters? Like what does that feel? Like? It was less? It's less I might win than I'm in this now, like this is what I do? Like this is My whole life is to have a chance. You know, the winning

to me is a byproduct of other things. I think the goal for me always is just getting the mix, because that's the fun part. One back or something on Sunday the Masters. That's that's the reason I play. Like that moment, you know, it's less about the win at that moment that this is this is it, I'm here, This is the moment. You know, I've had moments and other tournaments, but this was at the moment, my first real moment in this tournament. Um, it's just a good feeling.

And again I keep referencing Freddy, but when you play with Freddie at the Masters, you get a standing ovation onto every tea and every grain. You don't, but you're witnessed to it because Freddy's getting it everywhere. And it's

just they love him. You can't. A crowd cannot love a person more than Augusta loves fred Couples, I mean, he is their man um And so the whole walk from the righthand side of the fifth grain all the way down to the six teh tea, subsequently hitting the sixteenth tea shot and then getting to the sevente tea, nobody sat down. Did not feel like anyway, they just not started just stop you a little bit to hit

your shot. I had a really good shot up on the tier, rolls down stiff, you know, the one that you think is going to go in from the tea. They all they're all standing up on the edge and they're all going nuts at the green. And then he does the same thing on top of me. So we're both three ft on sixteen those birdies happening everywhere. There's there's all sorts of names on the letter board, and they did not sit down and stop cheering until we

got to It was nuts. It was absolutely crazy, incredible feeling. I remember, I mean, your shot came really close to going in. And remember he telling me once like watching it trickle down there, you're like, if this goes in, I'm going to win the master. Like like this is an agonizing, like slow little trickle, like just like you almost don't want it to go in because you don't. You don't want to be lucky. You want it to be good so much. That's a good shot if it's closed,

it's lucky if it goes in right. Um, No, your whole life, you've wanted to hit that shot, Like you get that chance every year when you get to play the Master. You get the chance to hit that shot right. The lands right and it rolls down and it might go in. And um, it's actually a pretty easy pin outside of the Masters. That pin, I mean, anywhere thirty right at the pin with any sort of right distance seems to end up next to the hole. But to actually hit the shot that you've seen so many people

hit over the years. And actually as soon as I hit it, I knew it was good, Like as soon as I take five and go to Hill Park, I could totally relate, except for it's Hill Park, And yeah, just that unbelievable just to be in the mix and there's rules everywhere. At this point, people are making birdies everywhere. And at that point when I got to the seventh there was five five of us tied for the lead. Um and as I said, we're about four flast group.

I think maybe fifth, last group fourth because a lot of people in the mix and I can't remember w

Schwartz wasn't the last group, right, I think? Yeah, so he was leading going in him and he would j who played well at the mast, Yeah, yeah, And I parted the last two holes, hit at the front bunk on seventeen, which is kind of not the worst place to hit it up and down part eighteen, and ended up losing by four, which didn't feel like it when I was going up the last I think I was now one back when I was going up the last Birdie he would be great, but part you never know, right,

And the group behind me looked. Donald chipped in to finish on the same score as us, and we thought, well, this is all right, like hanger it don't leave the clubhouse sort of thing, very quickly erased by Adam Birdie fifteen and sixteen behind us to go to in front of us, and he wasn't going to drop two shots.

But Scotty, he's the most hard done by that week because he was too in front on the seventeenth t on Sunday, part the last two holes and lost by two shorts on Birdie to lash four four, which is just that doesn't happen, right, It just doesn't happen. I meant sixteen, yes, but seventeen is a tough hole. And we've seen birdies on eighteen, but not after the three birdies previous. At seventeen he drove into the rough and

had to bend one around a tree limb. Is probably the best shot of the day, even even though he he jarred two others to get there. But an incredible shot. Some days of your day, it was clearly his day all day. Or if you actually look back at what happened to Charlotte day, I was like, well, it's just it was his turn, right. If you think back to your whole your master's career, is that the one that you replay the most, or or is you don't even play that game? You don't. I don't play that game,

not really. I've always had a good time here. I'd love to play it again. Um never missed the cut, always sort of played all right. It's the sort of thing that just I needed stuff to be this big two engaged fully properly. I think now that I look back, like when you play thirty tournaments a year, not taking it away from any other tournament when you When I was young, I could get into it didn't matter. I could get into, didn't matter how small the tournament was.

But when you do it thirty times a year, you can you're always looking. When you start getting in the majors and stuff, you just start looking towards the majors and the big tournaments. So actually get a like to be fully engaged. It sounds funny that you wouldn't get engaged on Thursday at Torry Pines or wherever, but it's different when your whole mondset is about winning tonements like this.

So when you're at Tonam was like this, you're you're fully there, whereas when you're the last wake at San Antonio, something's you're thinking about here when you're there, so you're

not fully fully engaged. You know. I also think that having you and I buzzed around Melbourne and played, you know, however many courses we played in so many days, but there has to be something to the fact that when you go I remember asking Tom Dope where would be the one place you'd take like a buddy strip and he said Melbourne, And I was like, really in Melbourne And then having been there and seeing the quality of golf and the architecture and the strategy to almost every

shot you're hitting. Was there something to the fact that you grew up around this, around this level of of venue and shot making and strategy. Did it take certain venues here to actually pique your interest an architectural and strategic standpoint or a little bit fall asleep sometimes out there for the generic US architecture from time to time, it's less about the architecture more about the set up.

I think. I think you can have great courses set up boring, you know, and you can have average courses set up really fun, you know. But as far as Royal Melbourne when I grew up next door to Role Melbourne, I currently live right right like literally next door to Roll Melbourne. That if any greens in the world that you would go to to get ready for this, I'd

go there, you know. I mean, it's not practical. It's twenty hours in a plane away and um, the seasons are different and all that, But like it's the shots that you that I grew up watching golf tournaments at as a kid at Royal Melbourne. There was a tournament there every year when I was a kid, like everybody came Jack, Greg, Freddie, Paint Stewart, everybody played in Australia in those days, it was Watson. It was I grew up watching parts at least in short game shots and

shots and the grinds that people play here. You know that. To me it was professional golf. And I think if the architecture side of thing, the lack of engagement hit me a little bit. It's just because it's you, you narrow. Professional golf, unfortunately, sometimes comes down to who drives at the longest and stratus and who puts the best you know whereas you when you get places to like this and the old course, Marian and Riverea does it every year and even like w of course is like Cappe Louer.

To be honest, they do it like it's not what everyone would necessarily think is like maybe it looks like a resort, It isn't. Cappelua gets you to like tons of geometry, yea, and use the slope and don't fight the land, use the land, and like use your where are my best approaching? When the fairways a hundred yards wide, you have to decide where the best place to come in from and stuff and I think when it's like that, I engaged more. But generally I think it was it's

set up. If it's firm, the pins are interesting, you know. I think I got into it. It was more just the occasion, I think, more than anything else, if that makes sense. So you said you'd like to play the Masters again, Maybe we should just pause a little bit for the listeners and recognize, like Jeff is become part of the the fire Prey collective and you're thinking about maybe more macro role in the game than than just playing. But for the people at home, where are you in

your career? What what is the depth of your ambitions? What would you like to accomplish, Like, let's just get that out of the way, real quick, real quick. Look, I don't really know. It's a moving target. When I moved back to Australia a few years ago, needing a bit of a gap year because I was just over it, um a little bit, spend a bit of time with the kids, trave a little bit less, let them sort of suck up Australia a little bit, um, all that

sort of stuff. And then COVID came alot and I was planning on just playing a few, you know, doing a few things on this absolutely, um So I've never hated this sort of things like a lot of my peers. But uh, I still think of myself as a golfer, you know, but knowing that I've scratched my itch, you know, like I don't need to scratch it anymore, Like I'm

a golfer. So that's kind of what I would my comfort zone is playing a golf tournament, um but understanding that it's there, it's not all the dream your life it looks, especially when you've got kids in family and it's nice to be home and a golf tournament isn't You don't go away for the weekend, and people tune on t vs and again, we've been there since Monday, you know, and then we leave on Sunday. We go somewhere else from Monday to Sunday, and then we leave it.

We go somewhere else from Monday. Say, it's like it's quite a long sort of a lot of time away from home, and I'm not there at the moment. So I'll still think I'll play wherever I can and fit it in. But I've done being a full time golfer, So I like this sort of things. We're building golf courses now, um men, Michael Cockey and actually made sort of I'm really learning from them their twenty years into

this sort of business. I mean sort of about ten years and um sort of really hitting their hitting their stride or we're hitting our stride and seat of getting some nice properties to work with and doing all that and that's really exciting. And this sort of things five pit and getting to talk the rubbish that's always been in my head, the game. I think it's just I think it's really interesting and I could talk about golf indefinitely. Um one man's rubbish is another man's treasure, and that's

what we'll make that a shure. Jeff's rubbish is our treasure. You're I mean, you look like you're in great shape. The talent is not drained out of your body. But to get back to the masters or to to have another run, does it just come down to the commitment, like do you want to pay that price to really get your game rasor sharp? Like? Is that I'd love to pay that price, That's all And as I kind of I would I would hint at to everybody, and

it's not hard it's not hard work for me. Like that's comfort zone for me is getting up in the morning with a mission, you know, with golf. I think that's to be honest, I've always found that relatively easy because you want it. You know. It's better than getting in the car and driving to the office every day. My office is the golf course. That's a good office. But life gets progressively more complicated. Um, and there's and your priorities change, you know, Like kids are pretty important.

Family is important. Being at home. I spent twenty years not in my home country, you know. I mean, it's kind of enjoying being around my people a little bit, even though for all I could easily end up spending the last fifty years of my life here too. At the moment, I'm really enjoying Australia and having a good time. I don't I really don't know. I could have played

my last tournament. I don't think I have, you know. Um, and I could sort of get my life arranged where I can play a bunch as well as do all this other stuff. You always have the sand and yeah, so that's peaking the interests. And I've been playing a lot with the kids. The young sort of elite up and comers, trying to help them in a well, I just want to hang out with them because they're young and they're frothing on golf and like they're good and they hit it further than me, and I want to

play with them. But also playing with them it makes me realize that we have sort of knowledge for them that they can benefit of them. And I say we we being those who have played on to it for twenty years or so, and we have a few in Melbourne down nicka Hern's there, Marcus Fraser played in Europe twenty years and a whole bunch of other guys who have played elements of to a golf. These kids are getting taught really golf, the fundamentals of golf better than

we ever did. But they're a little bit clueless as to to a golf and what makes it to a golfer and what really what skill sets are really sort of valued out there and are important and which ones aren't. And it's fun to play with them and sort of have them pepper us with questions about to a life and management and where should I play and do we go to do I go to the West Coast to the east coast of the US, or should I go to Europe first? Or what do you think about Japan?

And like what am I going to expect? And all that's of stuff. And I find that stuff really fun, especially playing with young enthusiast playing with enthusiasm. The enthusiasm is a rare commodity on guys who have been on tour for twenty years. As you guys have come across, you know, like the youngsters, I mean, they're bouncing off the walls, right, and they're just excited about everything. So we get jaded about not getting three new drivers a month as opposed to only two or something, you know

what I mean. Like they're like frossing on the idea. They get provate ones on the range, you know, like, and that's just exciting to be around. So being around those guys, I'm playing with them is fun too. So I really have no I'm just doing today and we'll see what happens tomorrow, you know, Okay, we should That was a necessary day version. Now let's get back to let's get back to the master. So, um, you know you do have that discerning eye for architecture. You're out

there at the course today on Tuesday. Um, do you think of the changes, and that's particularly the tree the middle of fairway at eleven, Well, it's it's it's in the middle of the fairway, but it's there's now three trees where there were fifty trees. It's definitely an improvement, but it's a net positive. But that that tree looks really weird to be added to my eye. I don't know.

I'm not sure if I'm down with it. I don't know. Look, I think they have their challenges clearly with what's happened to how far people have hit it in the last twenty or thirty years, you know, And they're really always seemed to be intent on just retaining the sort of same sword of clubs and shots that have always that Jones and Mackenzie wanted us to hit in here, you know. And eleven there's been one that they've had a few cracks out in the last twenty years, you know, like

it's the one. It seems to be the one that they want to get right, you know. And I think when they first narrowed it, it was too narrow, and they without telling anyone, sort of progressively wandered over the years anyway. I don't know if you've noticed that, but the very first year it was really narrow on the fairways way to the left, and the fairway got a

little bit further and further to the right. It's a better hole when you let people miss their drive to the right because the second shot is so interesting from the right because of that big lump before the green. You can't run it up from the right because you run up from the right, you're either gonna be on the twelve d or you're gonna be in the water. But you can't run it onto the green from the right hand side. So I think allowing people to miss it and before we hit it in the right trees

and you just chip it out. Now people are getting in the right trees. I know, heideki and filling that of a tiger of escaped trouble over there. But they were kind of fortunate for the last couple of years

they were fortunately they were so far right. But now people are going to be under those trees, that tree that you don't like, they're going to try to go for it, which is fraught with all sorts of danger, you know, and it's asking questions that they want recovery shots out here, and I think when they allow recovery shots, the courses at its best, you know. And I think eleven time will tell. I think fifteens are bigger chant.

I think fifteen could completely profoundly change the tournament if the t Yeah, because twenty is a lot on that whole because it feels hill too. Now the drive you further down the hill a little bit, um, it's not the whole you want to have to thirty two forty and two because you have to go for it right.

And we always see and everyone talks about yeah, but guys have been hitting six and seven ones in here, but they have on Sunday when the weather is right, likes further back, if it's slight, gets into the wind, it's a little bit soft like it might be if you get the whole field laying up. I think they've got that wrong because I think it'll be a bit boring if everybody lays it up. And isn't that But

isn't that again? The tiger proofing actually ended up plate into the hands of longer by making that a longer hold. Doesn't that actually benefit the longer hitters? Always? Always? I mean it always this is my new thing. It's like adding length is not the answer to a distance issue. I should take length away exactly, Like it just seems like going in the wrong direction. I don't this is

it's bothering me. Like the longer hitters are gonna love the fact that fifteen plays twenty yards on it because now the shorter guys are forced to lay up and the long guys can actually still go for it. But when the long guys go for it, it it will be a more dangerous shot. I mean they were hitting eight irons, and you know, Sergio hit an eight iron and fifteen with the masters on the line. As you know, you're

not gonna hit an iron perfect every time. But it kind of takes the water out of play, like he's going to get the yards more or less right. But like when when Jennifer cup Too won the Analyst, she hit a hybrid in and there was a dangerous shot she had lost the tournament. Like I think, if you get guys having to hit four or five irons, that's exciting,

but they will I mean twenty yards of again. People will say Sunday often and I think, oh, everyone's hitting idon and here I assure you the year that surge id on in on Sunday, half of the field had to lie it out that way because they didn't drive a fire enough, you know, Like it's not like the whole field hits idon In, you know, and he's feeling and a Sunday and the weather was a I think, look, they'll get it right. They never get it wrong ever.

And if they've got the weather and they know to the yard how much the ball is going to run on the fairway by Sunday, they'll have the tea. But they'll make it. It'll work, it'll be perfect, you know. I think that's Eleven's always been tough. It's always going to be tough. It's just made a tougher hole. Maybe slightly tougher, you know, but almost easier off to a little bit in a way. You know, fifteen is a

profound change. If it gets into the wind and the whole field one day has to lay up and they all have that wed shot. I mean some guys have probably have been Dustin's probably hasn't had that wed shot that much, you know, Rory, like they've always gone for the grain. Will be interesting because it's the hardest wed shot in golf by a long stretch and that's kind of fun. Actually, I would love to see that. That's that's stressful for those guys, really stressful, But it's a

good point. They don't have to use they don't have to tip it out. I mean they could, they could, they could play with it. So a couple of days it's it's a ballbuster, and a couple of days they moved up yards and tast twenty yards long, so it will be the same as what the front of the tea is probably where the back of the album was. So yeah, I've always loved when Live From has Cranshaw on and he kind of takes them, takes them through

the golf course and he goes hold by home. I'm not saying that you have to go hold by hold, but I'd be interested in just sort of as you almost like Mike Kaiser does when he when he assesses a golf course, he kind of gives it a one through ten rating per hole and then he tries to see how many you know, where it stacks up in terms of how he rates it. Can you just kind of breathe through the golf course and just give us

your sense of hole by whole. What you what you kind of think of the whole as it relates to sort of the greater good of architecture. Yeah, I mean, look one is underrated. That's it's one of the tougher holes on the course. I would tell you, um, it would be less tough. I guess if it wasn't the first hole. Um, but it's a tough hole. I mean it's longer than people think from back at the Master's tall.

You've got to hit a decently solid one to get it up on the flat, and you've got sort of severn right onto the hardest grain on the course, arguably the first, because there's no bailout on the first. You can't if you left left to the green or longer the green, you're gonna you're gone. You can't get it up and down. It's almost impossible to get down over the back. Is actually hard to get chips out on

the green. Right's really the miss. But you don't really want to try to miss the first one on purpose, you know, Um, no real bail from halfway up the green, and a lot of times the ball will come off the green, so you can't just try to hit it five on the front and like having up your part because it'll come off. So it's a hole that gets you defensive from the start. It reminds me of the ocean, that green like that you always like see the ripples

of the waves. Yeah, and an architecturally makes perfect sense. The bunkers on the inside of the dog leg. You can drive it close to the bunker. You get your angle to the front left pin in the minute. It doesn't really in reality play like that. You're just trying to hit the fairway and hit the green. But it ticks the box, right, It makes sense to what would you rate number one if you had to give it a one through ten as a first hole? But what on on scale of one to ten of just being good? Yeah,

what you would consider an amazing a turkey? Well if thirteens of ten um it's just seven or eight or something, it's a good hole. Like you'd be happy if that was your first time in any course. Right, Yeah, we've got a seven point five. And whoever built that grain and design that Graham, I mean, like you'd be proud of that grain, you know. I think it wasn't two is a cool hole. It was a weird t shot.

Two breaks the traditional rule of having the trouble on the inside of the dog leg like challenges you on the outside the dog like that. But it makes sense because you want to drive it right, because you get the angle to the green um odd t shot two UM and got longer and longer and longer um as the years went on that I played it like when I was a kid. I mean when in ninety seven target like eight on or something into two right, something crazy like on something or something like that. I've never

kind of even never imagined. I've never had less than like maybe two on UM. Two is an unbelievable grain. Like the whole course is about grains really to be fair um grains and slope. They used slope very well. I don't know where I'd write two twos and umber it again. I would have been very happy to come up with two. It's a very interesting second shot. There's zero rough, nothing to worry about in the second shot whatsoever.

Yet you have to get really sort of fun because if you have to miss the ball right of the pin generally because the whole thing is back left or front right, that grain and if you're anywhere sort of right of the pin, as you play the whole you've got a chance to get up and down and stop it. That screen reminds me, what is the first part five? Unreal Melbourne West? Is that four four West? Yeah? That green?

That was my favorite shot on that course going into that green, and it's just kind of reminds me of too, the way it's banked and sloped and you can you can you can play about seven different shots to get to the flag and the super fun shots around green that front that that Sunday ish pin they've been using for the last ten years or so. That's a fun pin to pitch out because you can kind of hit it up the middle of the green and get it next to that and even long shots can come up

and roll up that rule, up that that slope. Yeah, it's a it's it's a new I don't know where I rate two. It's a great part five though, like and it shows you you don't you stick at a hundred yard wide fairway. There is really no trouble around the green. A couple of bunkers, but it'll drive you nuts. And there's a three or a seven there or even more if you drive it left, and you drive it left is a little creek down the bottom of the hill and the flowers and stuff. You don't want to

hit it down there. We'll give it an eight. Now we can always come back and change a little bit. Fun further review, third hole three is a cool hole three. It's got better now. I think the guys that driver almost you know, because when for the first few years I played, everybody just hit sort of the two or three on up level with the bunkers and wedge it on um. And the only time we would hit driver early days was when that pin was in that tucked back right bit, you know, because it was kind of

good to be down close to the grain. You could sort of run it up to the pin. Incredibly hard grain. Awkward hole second shot, it goes away from you that that left hand side of the grain. It's almost impossible to get a wedge on the grain on that left hand side, you know. Awkward, uncomfortable feeling hall to play. Yeah. Again, I don't know. I'm not good with ratings, but there's been a short path forwards in the world than three

of the masters. But there's something about the whole that yeah, I don't know where it is in the routing too. I mean, you know, coming off a scoreable five and unsettling short three, then a long four, I mean a long part three is the fourth two and three is where you have to make your score exactly because because four and five with ballbusters, so like three is an opportunity even if you're like, I don't know if I should a driver here, I'm not feeling it yet. I'm

easing into the round. But you one, four and five are really tough, so you really want a birdie at least one of two or three hopefully both, right, um, a sort of insurance against four and five. Bertie two and three really awkward, tricky hole. It's not in my top eighteen holes in the world, but really cool. Yeah, And it's one of those grains. That's one of the grains that you first get to here that just makes

you appreciate the tilt on these grains. It is outrageous because that's not something the greens here like the kind of got the wavy bits in him or the different sort of levels. That one's just pure tilt. And it's

that's when you first really you've got this. Your caddy, you'll tell you you're aiming four ft right of the hole or something on this part and you think you're being really smart and he like aims right of the whole for your part, and you're like there's no chance, and you don't do it, and you miss the part way low, you know, like it's three is tough. You miss it over the green really for your second if

you can over the green and left of the pin. Four, it's just for the beast for it a amazing past three. Like if you built that anywhere else, I've got an unbelievable grain that people would run you off out of the business. Like it's you know, like how hard a

hole is that. I can't remember one Masters in the nineties, one of my first masters, they had the pin on that front little tongue, and it was that that's that you can stopping that slope and guys are four or five putting and there was just a lot of happiness, but that that was cool. It was it was that fromping. I don't use that very much, but I think it's probably because of that day. It was like it was out of control, like as you're saying, it's on the

edge of being unfair, depending whe they put the flame. Yeah, it actually plays a lot more doable for stable in the torn for some reason, and three hours to that back right thing and stuff. I don't know. It's a really tough hole, but it's a playable tough houle, you know. I don't know too forty two fifty. It sounds so unreal. It was downhill and you pumped up and generally would be more downwind. I would have certain into the wind generally, even though it sort of blows all over the place.

Um yeah, tough old great part three for a long path three, it's legit. I would be very proud of having that all if i'd build that all. It's crazy green too. Again, how do you build that green like it's People don't have an appreciation for how slopy and how arly these greens are and how different that whole can play. From that front left pin to the back right one and the back right one, it's only about

four from the hedge and the trees. You know, there's a three on and you really kind of have to go for it because if you don't go for it, you're a hundred feet away because if you land much left of that pin, it just goes all the way down to the left. Feel like I've seen a lot of visuals of guys, you know, asked coming out of those hedges looking for their ball, digging around in there on the right end side. It comes up quick. You can land on the grain and go in there on.

Feel should have won the two thou that triple right hand out of hedge, It comes up quickly. Yeah, for a great hole. I would have been proud of building that one. That's a good hole. Five brutal hole. Let's just go harder and harder. I mean that green again, you cannot even imagine. It's so long now, like it was long ish before they added this. What they add thirty a couple of years ago out on the Berke

control fifty or sixty um. So it's kind of like between driver and three would just don't hit it left off the tea. As long as you're right, you're okay, and you have a five or six on too a pin that's like, how do you It's like a like an old course green that really feels like a green at the old course. Done it at the front there and it's like trying to hit a five on on top of a voxwagon beetle and like good luck with that. It's almost like they take birdie out of play there.

It's it's not it's just not a birdie hole. Get lucky, Yeah, you got it's it's just survived, get up somehow, finagle apart and get to hell. It's funny. It plays a lot more. I mean when I when I first played it in the practice rounds and stuff, and I'm like, when I first got here, I'm like, there's just no chance, Like how do you even hit this green? But like you can, you know, for some reason in the tournament you just I don't know. It isn't that what's great?

You hit past hopefully and like passed and left of it on the grain that a little bit somewhere in the middle and part of it up in two parts, and try to get out of it. It's some you don't miss the grain. You don't miss it short. You miss it short once, and then you don't miss it short again because short you're not making part, you know, and then riot's awful. Um, you just do the best you can there. That's just one of those. It's a

bit like eleven. You just if you could pencil in four or four times, you would run away as fast

as you could. I think this was so great about Augusta is almost every hole is like a half part hole they're talking about good party chances are really really hard part There's there's very few kind of just easy parts like either either you just stay out there and you get a great shot and you have a chance at three, or you're gonna get your teeth kicked in and you'd love to make a boat and you're like that. To me, it makes it such a fun tournament course

because there's a wide dispursed of outcomes on every single swing. Yeah, and it demands respect so often, you know, brunning back decisions that you just have to respect what can happen, you know, you just have to do. And we don't have that very often anymore. We just not anymore ever, Really, you just don't have that. Look look to your point, at one is basically apart four and a half. Two is apart four and a half. Three is a part

three and a half. Four is a part three and a half, and five is apart four and a half. In a way, you don't get to a true par until really six, which is a part three. Yeah, but then if you go along at six, yeah, but it's be dead there. Yeah, but you h but in terms of lengthen and it's it's a true part three. And then you get into a couple of parts. You know, seven I would call a true four. Yeah, it's got hard. It's all about pins. I mean, look, six is an

unbelievable hole that pins down the bottom. It's a birdie hall depends at the top. It's just trying to make pie. You know, that top tier that they usually have twice. It's just people don't know how small that is. I mean, we're hitting sixes and seven ones under this like it's a table, it's a dawning table, and if you miss it, you've got a hundred foot or you're off the right inside of green like, but you can't not go for

it because who wants the hundred foot? So it forces you to hit a shot that's just outrageously hard, you know, And the weeks you're playing, well you do. You know, it's funny how often you do hit it up the top of that six hole. We must be better than we think, you know. That's that's definitely true. That was a foulder is and he always said, I knew my iron game was down and if I could hit a shot on six the back flag. Yeah, you always talked

about that. Yeah, so six is great. It changes from an easy hole with the two low pins to the two high pins to being really really hard sevens the same seven with the pins on the left on the high bit. It's so hard, that whole long, narrow ball below your feet. Second shot sort of almost it feels like you're almost downslopy to hit it up, you know, and the ball's landing, say flat on a shallow green. Then it doesn't. You can't just have it hit and

stop there because it's uphill. But then you get that pin on the right and it's like you try to hold your second shot rot It's like sixteen told when you start getting the ball funneling, yeah, front right to like that becomes the fun factor Absolutelyeah, it's just total fun, you know, and you're actually realistically thinking I could actually hold this if I get it in this gat on the right instil crane um seven again. I don't know where I'll write them all at the end. Well, well, yeah,

I kind of. I love this kind of the half part thing because counting the number of half parts is also a great indicator of just how I think how great the golf course can be and how how much fun it is, and why this holds up as as a reoccurring major championship venue in which they can dictate what happens based on pin placements and just tempt you'd call a part four and a half just like you would five. What is a hundred yards longer? Right? Like, Yeah,

it's not really far. I mean I always found it really long. Again, we watched that they show Dustin and Rory and Phil and Tiger and that play that all, but like very few of the field are hitting on that green into regularly. Yeah, that's a proper part fire. Most people bail their seconds at the right. Yeah, I mean when guys are winning, they're hitting it on the grain and stuff. But there's a lot of years where everybody's would you would play four four third shots from

fifty yards from the green? Um, it's pretty long. The bunker is carrying the bunkers like the domain of only the very very very freakishly long. You know, it's a proper You gotta hit a property shot and you've got a really good second shot on that green, and the green is tricky. That's my least favorite green here, I would say, um, you'd probably get that out of most. I just don't like the mounds, the mounds, the amount of character. Um, but I had a few cracks of

that over the years. Eight. Have you seen the photo of Clifford Roberts's vision for Yeah, it's bizarre and it's really weird. Yeah, it's better with the malad. He didn't like the mounds. He took the mounds of right, and the whole green was raised up about a like edges and it's just like a little it's like the silver was like a chalk outline of an actual green. It's it's a strange it's a strange one. Yeah, that's why the club chairman should not be allowed to be there.

It kind of works like they do it a lot here. Which breaks the rules is that they open it up from the outside of a dog leg. I mean normally all the best holes you've got to challenge the inside of the dog leg to get the good angle to the green. Right, think thirteen, if thirteens of perfect dollar, you're the clothes you get into the creek, the easier

your second chop done. Whereas eight, it's almost the further right you go on your second shot, the better you are, you know, which is because you just hit and taken out of plane. What you just you don't have to hit it near the trees like traditionally, like you're a traditional like architect purist. One oh one would be you hug the cornice, the easy pitch shot, you know, but there you actually you go wide, you know. It's the

same as nine. Nine is interesting again because nine opens from the right the outside, and normally Mackenzie would have opened it up from the inside. But that's using this that's the extra dimension of using side slope that they use here. It can be is the wrong way. It's high on the left, low on the right, and you it's a draw. It's a green that you have to draw it into from the downslope ball below your feet.

Let's take Olympic Club a little bit, just a bit like thirteen and asks you to hit up fade into the green with the ball above your feet, which is completely counter to what you want to do. Nine asks you hit to draw from the ball below your feet down slope, which is all it is is low cut, low cut, and that shot deserves a high draw, which is why this course finds the best and it's less about form and more about pedigree because it's just only there's only a few people who can do that for

seventy two holes. Now you'd call it true part four. Oh yeah, absolutely quality, you're gonnahit a really good T shirt. It makes you think you've got to hit a really strong draw down there, but you really you actually want to smash it down the right hand side to open up the grain a little bit. It's funny. First five holes could be considered half parts of some sort. In the next four our true part of fours. And then

you go to the back nine. Yeah, I mean the ninth hole to me, the volatility the ninth hole, Yeah, easy to make a five there for sure? Yea three? Um sure, and then look tends up four and a half ten and eleven and four halfs for four and a half to night maintain is if eleven is not the hotest all of course ten is. So you start the back nine with just complete brutality and twelve to be fair, you can put that in there because I mean that's a path three and it's the path three

that's got a two to eight or not. It's got everything. Yeah, um four tens and four fifteens and four and a half sixteen to three fourteen fourteens of four fifteens, A four and a half sixteen is a three, seventeen is a four eighteen is a yeah. I mean like sixteen again, it's all pin position because sixteen the two high pins, it's the hardest part of the course. Almost the two low pins hard to not make birdie. Sometimes you know which is which is Again is a gene because sixteen

one day is the hardest hold the course. The next days easyt holo course just because you've moved the pint. Wow. I mean it's just incredible and and same six. I mean the volatility of the par five. I mean every every every pin position, every pin position can dictate the difference of a of a full shot one way or the other. I think different that is from like Pebble Beach, where you just want to the middle of green and you'll have a fifteen foot on pretty much every hole.

I mean there's some really tough pins, like fourteen front right is a lot different than back left. But you don't talk about the pins of Pebble nearly the same way because it just doesn't change the course. Yeah, that the drama and the stress of pebble is before you get to the grain. Generally here it's really when you get to the whole hall is gear about where's the pin and how do I get to that pin? The best essentially identifying nine half pars at August National, in

my opinion, is what would make it. And you could probably do the same at Royal Melbourne. But why it's such an amazing major championship venue and why it's so much fun to not only watch but also seemingly to play, shows you the irrelevance of power a little bit too like, right, um the minutes we all like it to measure her on score during their round, right, but it really doesn't matter, right um. And it's six days of great hole. It

was a thirteen. They're all great holes depending on whether they're heart I mean six days of great hole when it's playing really hard, and six days of great one's playing really easy. Like, it's got nothing to do with how hard it plays, how good it is this course, whether the whole is set up as easy as it can or as hard as it can, it doesn't make it any less good or bad. It's just great all the way. What would be your ultimate sick this whole routing?

If you could to identify six holes from Augusta National that you would extract and put in your backyard and that you could play for the rest of your life, what six holes would those be? Thirteen would be the show piece. I think thirteen is the perfect golf hole. Thirteen you just play that six times. I think thirteen is great. Fifteen is fun. Um, I mean it's mostly the back nine. I think ten, I really I think ten's a great hole. Um. Twelve would you really want

to play that every day? Yeah? Sixteen? Yeah, sixteen is fun? I mean how fun is sixteen? I would put out Sixteen is a better hole than twelve. Twelve is maybe more interesting, you know, but sixteens from a player's perspective, fun to play. So you mentioned the chipping competitions. You never in the sixteenth grade with your boys, ten, thirteen, fifteen, sixteen, you've got room for two more and you're back two more. Well, I love the seventeenth green. We will play that loop.

We'll go, we'll stay on that side of the course. Seventeen and I put one in there because I think one is great. Wow, that's my only critique of Augusta National is eighteens to me kind of a mediocre hole and even seventeen is super awkward. That drive and it is a cool green, but um, I don't know. The fitniest is always a little let down. You guys walk up the sixteenth green as well as like funds over and now it's just about green. That's like, that's close

to one of my favorite greens in the world. It's wild, but it's also it's so hard to birdie, Like, yeah, I guess you've had your birdie chances, so now it's just about hanging on. But eighteen eighteen, I don't know they used to As I said, they used the slope, like no course that we play uses side slope, Like

this play starts. You know you've got you're on an up slope on one, very often down slope on two, So I'd slope on three, so I'd slip on five a little bit, seven down slope, eight upslope, nine down slope ball believe feet, ten down slope, ball above your feet, eleven side slope, thirteen massive ball above your feet, fourteen ball below your feet. Like it's all day, like an eighteen is the first one where you're just massive upslope

and it's a hard swing. I mean those old times when you see guys like miss the second way right on eighteen, Greend. That's what happens when when you're on a massive upslope and you haven't had one all day and they present you, well, you've got to get into the clubhouse. You've got to hit the ball from a

massive upside. It's hard, like It's that's why it finds the best players, because that's as I said, it's less form and more pedigree like the one the guys those Sergios or Dustin's aroories of Tigers, or those guys who have every shot any day of the week. This finds them, you know, like they have an opportunity to show what they've got here, which whereas not in a normal week when they're flat lies and relatively simple puts and it's just basic golf. They can't show everyone why they are

who they are. But this course is the templight for them to like, you have to be them or you can't do it, you know. That's why it's so great. I love that I had an idea once where you would play the tenth hole, then then be underground tunnel of the high speed train would take you to the sixteen t You play sixteen, seventeen eighteen, then you'd go over to eleven, and then you'd finish. The finishing stretch of the tournament would be eleven, twelve, fifteen. That's how

the Masters would end. I think it's a genius just rejigger the back nine, but keep the same hole. They've already built the tunnel. The tunnel is probably already there. Like how how it curl would that be? I mean you get, you get, you get seventeen and eighteen now of the way early, and then it's amen corner and then you you end on the fifteen. Imagine the Masters is at state, you're staying on the fifteen fairway. But

I mean going back to go next. A lot of a lot of golfers played as match play and they climactic finish was look at look at Cyprus with the seventeen eighteen finished there, like you wish you could end on and some matches. Yeah, I'm just saying I think that that, you know, Chairman Yang or chairman Race should look into that. When Ridley's gone and do you've re shuffled the holes in the back now it could be epic.

That's just all I know is like we don't know the answers, and they always seem to know the answers. This is the best tournament in the world by a long way every year. It's exciting like that they know what they're doing, Like I wouldn't pick it. I wouldn't. I wouldn't upset the apple cart here because they know what they're doing. Like the sun sets on Sunday and they finished the tournament and the winter wins and that's

They've got this thing whole. So it worked out. That's the biggest flaw on my plan is that you'd end down at fifteen is a long haul back. But I'm just saying, don't do it for me as finishing holes. So they flipped the nine that first year. In the first year they had the nine is the other way? Can you imagine that would have been a different but the Masters would be a different story. Detail off on

ten and finished on nine. Right, you're you're routing by the way one ten opening up with two Part four is too tough? Part fifteen, Well yeah, but I mean it would be kind of cool disorder one ten, thirteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. I fun, fun golf course. It wouldn't. It's been a little volatility and scoring where the pins are. Mike, this is what's so great about this term is you know, is Oakmont maybe a better golf course in August National.

You made the argument, but no one's sitting around debating every hole. Most golfens couldn't even name any holes at Oakmont, right Like Pebble, people know the holes, but there's obviously some weak ones. Like I guess, it's just so fun to talk about these things because even the person at home who who has not playing the Masters like you have, or covered twenty seven them like I have, or whatever

it is, they have an opinion. They're they're invested in the golf course, and they know we're talking about in a way that you can do on any other course

in the world. I'm just hearing him talk talk recounting two thousand eleven and all the different names who were in and all that was happening, and the birdies were happening, you with Freddie and Tiger in front, and things were happening like that's all we hope that's all we can ever hope and pray for is on Sunday, after all of what we've waited for the start of the major championship season is to have eight or ten guys in the mix those last nine holes and just watch the

fireworks happen. It's so much fun and it's the best. That's that, like, you know, hearing you talk about that, being in it, immersed in seeing the scoreboards and the roars and the Bertie roars versus the Eagle roars and then the other roars on the other board. I mean, seeing it and being there as a as a as a patron is amazing. I can only imagine what it's like as a player. I'm actually getting excited about the

Master's just sitting there talking about I'm so excited. My favorite spot was to sit on fifteen left to the green, watch those approach shots, watch them then hit their shots on sixteen. See the board in front of the green at fifteen. I would camp out there for you know, I would. I would skip at least two peas and just I would. I would. I would stretch the bladder as long as I can. That top row that that grunts down so good yeah, Um, what what what are

veterans on the right that will never know? Never what is it? What is it like as a player to after all that you've experienced, immersed in gallery and stuff, to walk you know that amen corner where they keep everybody off to side. Does that actually feel like you're

walking into like a painting? I don't know if f fls painting, but it is certainly the best ten minutes of your year as a professional golfer when you leave the people, not that we love the people and playing in front of people and you guys, journalists, fans, your family, everybody. It's you and your caddy and one little CBS guy on a on a on a chair back there making to the camera doesn't break. Um, it's just the best.

You're Like, where else in any sport can you be two hundred yards from the nearest spectator, nearest person basically, and you're in the middle of the biggest tournament there is like, it's not it's so it's such a cool little moment from when you leave the twelve tea so when you sort of get to your drive on thirteen, it's just you, you and you're playing partners, just playing golf, like in the biggest tournament in the world and nobody's within two hundred yards of you. It's just the best.

It is such third three of the Masters is the best place in progolf. I've heard of players talking about if you make a part on twelve. The cool thing is it takes a secretary for the wall of sound. You know it does. It's just oh yeah, it's you get visceral evidence of the speed of sound because you make it. They see it go in and you see movement, but there's two seconds until you actually start hearing the

claps of stuff it starts. It's really cool. I'm very used to having a long pauses between and having a clap. So sometimes they never go their knowledgeable though they maybe. I mean, people talk about the open um and that is special. They know what they're watching. But here they know what they're watching. Because I would have said majority of the patrons the Thursday to Sunday people Monday to Wednesday is different. I think here it's a different crowd

Thursday to Sunday. Is they know what they're watching and they know their course. Most of them have been here a lot. They're fantastic people to play in front of and you know, the measure I think for a player is like a blind green. So you hit it up onto seven here, or you hit it over the hill, or there's a green that you can't see where it

is fourteen or something here. You can tell within a foot how close the ball is just by how they reacted, whether it's two ft it's spun back, whether it lipped out, whether it's twenty ft, whether it's an okay shot, whether it's a really good shot. You can basically guess with an foot, yeah, that's probably eight ft based on based on how they react. And most of them as you can't. You've got no clue because they're just there. One timers, right,

Tory or Phoenix or Hilton out or whatever. They're not really generally, they're just going to go to a golf tour them and they don't know the golf course here. They know the course, they know what the good shots are, they know what the bad shots are. They appreciate a

quality wedge shot to thirty if that's what's required. They appreciate that because they know that's what he had to do there, because he's going to make double if he went at the pin it's a really nice place to play from a fan patron perspectives, since they know what they're watching, smart and reverent field, smart and reverent, you know, a fan base smart and reverend, architecture and thoughtful, you know, input into the strategy equals. Is this the greatest by

a long stretch? This is the best tournament in professional golf, by any golf I mean, and it's I don't know why. I mean, Jones arguably the best golf brain ever. Maybe that at least put his feelings down on paper and tape, I mean, a bit of a genius. I don't know. They it's a product tournament. They put everything into making it the best one to play, the best one to go to, and the best one to watch on TV. Right, there's the three points that they hit, and that's the points.

They don't care about marketing, all the stuff on the outside. That's secondary to them is how good can we make this to play? How good we make this to visit? And how good can we make this to watch on TV? And they nail that, and that the reward is that it's the best. I think most other tournaments there's a bit more of a skew towards marketing and like quick sale and let's make some money this year, and let's put a big stand here and we'll put some signs

over here. They had zero compromise here. It's all about how good and pure can we make this and keep this? And they do it every year. And when you focus on your product, your product gets better. You know, it's the best tournament by my I love it. Well, we we have you all week. You know where where this is going to be a reoccurring thing around major championships. Being able to have access to your thought and and perspective and experiences, and it's it's very special obviously just

to sit here and listen. But thanks for your thanks for your time, and thanks for being part of the perfect collective. I love it to describe fun. I'm talking about what I like to talk about. We love listening. Yeah, all right, good stuff. Put another log on the fire. Nobody here is give the time