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Are you tired of superheroes who always do the right thing? Are you exhausted by teams that actually get along? Save the day? And dare I say it? Have a plan this summer? Why not order your very own superhero squad direct from Marvel's discount bin, introducing the Thunderbolts like the Avengers, but with more questionable decisions, twice the unresolved trauma, and a group dynamic best described as mandatory. It's like the Suicide Squad, but the one you ordered from Make a wish.
It's less Earth's mightiest heroes, more Earth's most reluctant group project. Still, maybe that's the real Marvel formula. Assemble a cast of deeply broken people, throw them at a government conspiracy and see what sticks. Will this ragtag band of misfits find redemption, closure, or at least get the dental plan they deserve? Or is this just another case of let's see what happens? When you don't read the terms and conditions before assembling
a super team. Either way, we're spoiling it all because that's what we do here. So if you're hoping for surprises, pure heart at heroics, or even narrative closure, maybe try another podcast For everyone else, buckle up, assemble your emotional support asterisk, and let's get into thunderbolts.
But then, not.
Being's a hero.
There is no higher calling. Your sister understood something about that I should come back for you. No, that's just a fairy tale.
I was in high school when the Avengers came. Kind of strange that it's all over now. No one is coming to save the day.
I think we are.
We can be the ones that are coming.
Look, you have the wrong people. We have all done bad things.
Look out then where you are.
The past doesn't go away, so you can either live with it forever or you can do something about it. I am avoid Look you.
You can't tell. We're on the emptiness.
We can't do this.
No one there is a hero.
We all have things that we would regret, but I have so many I'm beat right In this month, I've assembled a ragtag crew of cinematic mercenaries, all with unique skills, questionable morals, and probably vests with too many pockets. First up, the only panelist who'd survived five minutes on a government sponsored super team. It's make Me a Nerd Zone, Mandy Kaplan, Hi Mandy.
Hi Foster, did I do it right?
You got the bit?
That was it?
And a man who's never metamorally ambiguous protagonist he couldn't psychoanalyze. It's Justin jj.
Yeger OUDI glad to be here.
And the only guy who brings his own asterisk to every conversation. It's Tommy Mets the third.
Thank you for having me pleasure to be here as.
Always, rounding out the squad, the man most likely to critique your mission plan, It's Steve Sarmento. Hi, Steve O.
We haven't agreed on the outcomes yet. We can't get this far to the plan till we have agreed upon outcomes, everybody.
I don't want to throw the group dynamic asunder. I don't want to ruin things, and so I want to make sure we start with the most important segment opening thoughts. Tom would you like to start?
Yeah?
I made sure to ask friend of the show, Darnell dash Smith about everything that I needed to know for this movie, which was considerable because I don't know if any of these people are yes. But he was able to fill me in and so yeah, I just expected I'd heard some good things. This seemed to be like a level up for casting. I was very interested to know how this movie would go because I have checked out of the Marvels a little while ago.
You can't say that that's another Marvel movie, because that's actually a mar You gotta you gotta choose a different thing that you've checked out.
You didn't check out of the Marbles checked out?
Oh I thought you said the movie title was called checked out.
That pretty much sums it up.
But I would like to say the opening thoughts are we saying what we thought?
Are not quite?
Yes?
Do it?
Tom? You have the floor.
This film I thought was not for me. It was very much for me. I had a great time for this film, and for the first time in Marvel my personal Marvel history, this two hours.
Flew by nice, So I was really excited.
I had a really really fun time.
Okay, all right, wait a minute, can I go next?
No? Do you want to know why?
Oh? No?
Because I actually, I actually have made a drinking game out of what I think you're gonna say, and I don't want to get drunk yet.
I love it.
So I'm going to give this one to Steve.
Thoughts. There's so much. It started off as one type of movie that I was very excited about, and by the time we got to the end, it was a something completely different from what I expected. And I love the fact that Marvel is now found a story to tell to the next generation of like teenagers and what are the conflicts that they're facing in their lives and
something I think really speaks to them. And instead of speaking to aging comic fanboys, I think they've really identified gen z and spoken to them with this film in a way that really surprised and impressed me.
Standing thoughtful, Steve.
All right, Mandy, Now I'm hoping to say the stuff that JJ would say and get you drunk.
We'll see, we'll see if I can do it.
Well.
I knew nothing, but it's part of my charm.
It's part of who I am.
I know nothing, and I didn't i'd seen Black Widow when it came out a thousand years ago, but that's it. I don't know anything about the Avengers or anything, and I didn't need to at all. I was I kept up. I understood everything. I loved the humor, but I felt about it the way I feel about a lot of these movies, which is like, why do they have to fight so much and chase each other some month? It's not It's not my kind of thing. But I really I thought it was a fun one. It was a
good movie. I just get bored with fighting.
Okay, bored with fighting? All right, JJ, tell us how much you love Legion.
Aging comic fanboys, Gray Fis. I'm already called out, Love Legion, Love Legion. It's the first episode of Make Me a Nerd with Mandy Kaplan, right right, Yeah, No, I really like the movie. I'm very surprised. Tell me that you say you don't know any of these people. I think that's a gross over generalization. And I know from my work with Mandy here too, that you know she's only seen a limited number of the Marvel films up to
this point, or Marvel properties up to this point. That being said, I came into this movie with a whole lot of low expectations because of the direction that we were headed, but I agree that I think this is very different from other Marvel movies, and I think that people that dislike the fighting might be encouraged by the big spoiler alert resolution of the hug that happens that saves everything. Is what I will say if they're going
into this movie. I loved it in a way that you know, Tommy's just said it was something that was really for him. I think there were at least eight conversations in this movie that I thought were speaking directly to me as I was watching this film about fighting your shadow and about finding your way through all of your darkness, and I definitely think this is right out
see there you go perfect bingo. So so the so the idea that this is doing what Marvel movies do best in that they are utilizing their platform, their microphone, their genre of a superhero film to tell a greater story. And it's something that we've loved about the themed movies from Marvel in the past, when they've done a detective story or they've done a comedy or throughout their superhero movie.
This one has a very deep, meaningful message that's here and that usually it is the superhero vehicle to get it through and I loved it. It's the top ten Marvel movie for me. I don't want to put it ahead of so many other ones that I love, but it's definitely in the top ten of what they've done, hasn't he too?
That is that is probably the greatest surprise to me too, that this movie is not what I expected at all. I didn't expect to love these characters. I didn't expect to love their collective journey. I didn't like I didn't enjoy Black Widow, and yet Black Widow is a movie that is foundational to this because it gives us Yolena. I loved The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and I was I was. I don't know if it, but I
was present for ant Man in the Wasp. I like that too, Like there are all of these stories here are made so much better taken out of the context of the movies that spawned them. For me, these people are interesting. I have one of the things I feel like I must take from a sister show sitting in the dark. I do have an axe to grind, and it's right up front, and I have to get it off my chest or I'm gonna stew and simmer and my face is going to get really red. Task Master.
That the person that got shot right at the beginning.
Yes, why were they everywhere? Tom, They're on all the posters. Task is such an interesting character to me, and they oft her in the worst, easiest, stupidest, low hanging fruit way. I don't understand it. If there is some comic twist that I just missed, I am ready to be at educated, but this this was terrible.
Who the hell is task Master?
One of the dies in the furnace room?
Okay, so that she pulls off her mask and Yelena knows her and then she's gone.
She's also the villain from Black Widow. This is so if you've seen Black Wadow, you know her from there.
Yeah, okay, maybe she has a really good agent and she in this movie just to cash those sweet sweet checks.
That's right. She her her ability is that she is a mimic. Anybody she's fighting, she can fight exactly like them immediately. So she's fun to watch because you know the way they design fights as effectively mirrors of one another. Whoever she's fighting is fantastic and fun and a real showcase. And they just offed her. So early I was. I was floored that they that they did that particular rug pull that felt purposeless. So that that, notwithstanding, I really
liked the movie. How about that, I really really liked the movie.
By your intro, I thought you didn't. You're that's if I made brand.
Oh it's like that.
Yeah, yeah, I have a that's a brand. I have a brand. I'm glad you're here. Maybe you're learning so much today, JJ I.
Am speaking about your acts. I think I think I agree with you that it's purposeless. I can't make any apologies for it.
That.
You know, my kids that saw the movie, that was their biggest frustration with it. They they were prepped for some depth to the task Master story and it doesn't really make sense other than maybe it's saving room and the story for more people to run with the ball. I don't I don't have a good answer for it. It feels very it feels very sudden and without merit. But yeah, I agree with you. I guess this is my point.
I have thoughts about that because I I puzzled over that as well, like, Okay, what why have this character present at all? If we're going to just kill somebody else? So there's got to be some purpose to that. So I have to look at it in terms of storytelling. So it's it's US agent Captain John Walker that just shoots her pretty much in the face, right, I mean, what does that tell us about him? What is it
establishing with him as a person for this audience. If you haven't seen Falcon and Winter Soldier, you don't know his backstory. You've got to know this guy just he can be brutal, and you know there's allusions to what he did why he sort of is a disgraced hero. But if you haven't seen that, we need this. You know, he's a shady character and we need him to do something really dark and disturbing. And that's the only thing
that I could bring to that is it. Sure, it gives us space for another character, but it conveys a lot about that person who kills her immediately. It's his job. He just does it cold heartless, doesn't care.
That's a good point because again I had not seen Black Widow, Falcon in the Winter Soldier, or certainly hit Man in The Lost so I really didn't know anything about any of these people other than what Dash told me. So that was helpful.
So what they did is they went through all the marvel properties that these people came from, found out which one had the lowest ratings, and made sure that that one is the person to kill task most. Just how equal that person is, because we need them to really know how bad that No, I'm just kidding, but yeah, that's that's the interesting thing.
I am often duped by this kind of logic because I feel a certain way about a thing, and then Steve comes along and says, Pete, that's by design you have to feel that way, And I think, oh, crab, I've been I've been shanghaied emotionally shanghaied. Again, I think you're probably exactly right, Like this is a this is an issue of character economy. It just sucks that they did it with a really great character.
I agree one hundred percent. There could have been another way. There should have been another way to get that about him in there. But because I thought, if you're going to introduce a character just to kill them off, you know that, pick something else, have him do something else. But for whatever reason, that's the decision they made. The quote, my quote of the year is people see the decisions
you make, not the choices you have. So they may have had all their options and realized those were even worse.
Task Master talk.
No, Yeah, well that's another big reason right there, she says.
Yeah, she talks in Black Widow. She does at the end.
I didn't see Black Widow. Okay.
I was wondering if she didn't talk, then that would be another reason.
Well, she has a lot, Okay, So this is the point. I guess. She's not known for being a talkative character.
Everybody else in this movie is, and so that's really how we meet them, get to know them, that's how they form as a team. So if you had to get rid of someone who is wearing a something that is covering their face all the time, then maybe that would be the other.
Get rid of the social introvert.
I get it.
I get what you're saying here speaking of this as a mental health movie before we get into the individual characters, which I want to walk through that I think it's fair to say that might have been the biggest surprise to me is just how much this movie wanted to present a perspective on many different angles of mental health and healing. And I would love to hear how you my brilliant friends perceived that.
I think it felt graceful. I mean, that's what I would say about it, and I think that might be why people don't see it as excessive in its storytelling and its desire to do what you mentioned that it tried to do in bringing in a wealth or a group of different ways to approach similar problems with mental health. It did it in a way, again, like I said in the intro, used its vehicle, used its theme to approach them in a graceful way. And I was happy
with the way that they attacked these things. I think you know, in a really interesting point here, this is a Marvel movie that does not shy away from attacking suicide in many different ways. It answers that or asks the question of what are you going to do to reconcile with the evil that you've created? And it has different answers to that question for each character. And I think that was really graceful and allowed accessibility for all different kinds of people in the audience.
Without giving everyone. I think when you said, did you say elegant graceful, what did you say, guy graceful? Another part of its gracefulness is not giving everyone the exact same amount of time, because that's what I was waiting for.
Once the big group hug to be honest, which again is pretty sappy, is pretty There's some pretty sacrine moments in this movie for me, but it's sappy and sacrid about stuff that I care about instead of big red presidents, And so I got much more excited by that they're.
A big red president of the last one we talked about.
Yeah, that was good.
Uh, And I after the Big Hug, I was like, Okay, so now's the next hour of the movie, because it's marvel that we have to bustle through it. Instead, it ended and I was like, wow, like they found an economy where they handled a really big ensemble but deftly and just gave enough time to the right people and knew that really the story is Helena is really Florence Pugh's story at Lewis Pullman's story. Let's keep the focus
on there. And I thought that was There was a lot of restraint in this movie that has been missing in this in these movies.
I mean, it's it's heavy. And although in my opening statement I said it was a movie for for gen Z or whatever, but you know, you you look at because you know, Red Red Guardian of uh, you know, talking about you know, sort of Gen X living in the shadow of the boomers who had all this wealth and prosperity, and now the guy who was the hero who should have all that in a generation that's like, we're not living up to the dream, you know, because he's all about you know, you get the stuff, and
the stuff's going to make you happy, and he's not. And so I was that hit me more than I thought it was going to, because he's such comic relief character, but just really resonated with me myself as like, how do you struggle with that? Looking at the mini empires? Are parents built of going from nothing and all of this and wherever they are, and like you have now a generation that's like I can't mirror that for my generation of like am I a success?
You know?
How am I measuring my success? And then to look at you know, as I, you know, looked at each of these characters, I'm like, there are so many different levels of grieving, in different types of grief about what that is, you know, whether it's it's trauma, depression, river, but there for me, it was just grieving over different things in people's lives. And it as soon as that click, because I made a note at the being of like, Okay, Elene's like got this, like I'm trying to find direction,
you know, She's like this purpose. I'm like, okay, it's her story, you know, it's about finding purpose.
What is that going to be?
And then as all the other characters started coming in with these things, I thought, oh my gosh, this is a completely different movie altogether, Sharper and it's it just it was a movie that as those end credits rolled and everything, I just still couldn't believe that this had been a Marvel movie that had the bravery to take on something like this and do it so such a
balanced way and treat it with all seriousness. Is an integral part of the story, rather than oh it's a you know, it's a fad, it's a thing, we'll just throw it in there. But it was such an they found a great way to integrate it with all of these characters so well.
I the Yolena's sort of grief story when she's in the void. What I One of the things I thought was so artful about that projection was that we got to see both what she was living with the fact that, through her in action or through her indirect action as a child, she killed another child. But what stuck with me was Florence Pugh's performance of having to live with it right like her. I found her incredibly compelling in this movie. She was given so much to do performatively, Mandy,
do you like her? Did you like I always love her?
Yeah?
Yeah, I don't feel qualified to speak about like what Marvel has done with topics like this in the past. But I was wondering, is this a first for Marvel and you I think you're all answering that for me, But sitting there realizing the bad guy is within us in the dark side and you know our demons, I thought that was pretty cool. But then I thought, well, maybe they do this in all Marvel movies and I just don't know it. So I've had my question answered, and I liked the way they addressed it.
I'm most proud of Marvel as a studio recognizing what a star she really is, because I would argue and most people haven't seen her. Dialogue with Kate Bishop in the Hawkeye series is like the greatest set of dialogue that I've seen in any Marvel property over time, and it's the kind of thing that that's when I realized, I'm like, oh, wait a second, Like she's superior to the majority of people that we've seen in this roster.
And this proves it that Marvel gets it too, that really she does deserve her own property and she can lead in a great way because I agree with you in particular the scene where she and it's Alexi, right, that's Red Guardian are on the street talking about again how to reconcile with these evil things that they do. They have that father and daughter conversation. It was just
compelling and both these actors delivered it so well. And this is the thing, like I love Mandy that you can concede that in the movie you have the self talk of wait a minute, is this what they do all the time, because we're seeing it's something new done with actors who can deliver it in a way that some ensembles in Marvel. I mean, it's such a big, you know, group to talk about, but some ensembles in Marvel don't can't bring this along like this, and Florence Pew definitely can.
Yeah, she's wonderful.
This would be an award winning role if it wasn't a superhero movie. She just I mean, like what Pete says, she is given so many levels and she acts.
All of it. And it's so funny too.
She's so spend so much time depressed and crying, and yet her comic timing without being like Dudo is perfect.
She's just breathtaking, really good.
I just find her so fantastic. And the way this team is built together, the fact that it it feels intentionally not Hollywood cast because they put her is she is she five feet tall, like next to Alexi like. It is so comically miscast, pun intended that these people would be together. They look so stink and goofy together and yet somehow by the end I buy them as a team so literally ragtag right, it just works. She is obviously dealing with her loss and her trauma. Her
bathroom fight with herself is wonderful. The fact that she's dealing with the pressures of being an emerging leader while she loathes herself at the same time is terrific. Sebastian stan So Steve, you talked about your affinity with Red Guardian. For me, it was Sebastian Stan it was Bucky former Winter Soldier. Metal arm in the dishwasher was an amazing touch.
I thought that was extraordinary. He's just great. But this is a guy whose principal baggage is the search for purpose, right, and we got a little bit of that in Captain America, the Last Captain America, where he's now running for his senator. He's now a junior senator and like he's just trying stuff because he does not know how to exist after you know, hydra mind control for so many years, after
being a villain for so many years. And I think this was Sebastian Stands probably his best outing in this role, because yeah, we got some hero stuff, but we also got a guy who who actually got to struggle with what to do next. I thought it was great.
Yeah, no, I do as well. And I think when you're saying all these things, like he's trying all these things, trying to figure out who to be after, it's just it's more fuel to the fire to what we said at the beginning, where this is just another aspect of mental health of like a franchise that's aging and trying to figure out where it belongs in the world and how to create a new chapter in its own life.
That's Sebastians. That's Bucky's role here right is to show us, Okay, I don't have the adventures that I had before, so now now what do I do? And it's really neat for him to come back and have a heroic turn when he's been a little bit of a foil in the past past few properties.
I'm sure that character speaks to veterans all over the place of being that soldier out there, and it's like, read the packet, read the briefing. That's how you're going to get things done. When you're a person of action that gets stuff done, to say, well, you got it. We just got to tackle paperwork and bureaucracy is how we're going to fix things. How frustrating that has to be. Really,
I am uniquely equipped to do something. You're telling me, you know, everything's telling me do it, but the system is saying no, you have to sit here in this suit and you have to listen at this meeting and just not along, you know, and being like a junior senator, you're not charge of any committee, you have no decision making power, and authority. You know, that's an entirely different
type of battle that you're fighting. So I thought that was an interesting next step for that character to sort of see where how he's gonna navigate that because he's trying so hard, because it's so much of Okay, great, I'm going to get this scrip people. I'm going to bring them back because they're going to be my evidence. Because he's still trying to play that political game of well, if I get these people that have this information, Okay,
I can, I can do that, Sure, I can. I can you know, ride my motorcycle and do all those things, you know, But the entire purpose was to get them back to d C.
You know.
So he was still grappling with that, which I found really really interesting for him.
Yeah. I love the sort of wandering soul of Bucky Barnes. And and I look forward to a long, cinematic, big screen career for him now that he's gotten this. You know, they're they're in disposition, this new team. Uh and and I think he ties to David Harbor, right because Red Guardians search isn't necessarily for purpose, for you know, purpose, it's for legacy. It's for relevance right in a time
that has forgotten him. And it did make me think as he's sitting on his couch and Elena knocks on the door, I realized we're used to one super soldier in Steve Rogers, and then we get a super soldier in Bucky Barnes. But he's a bit of an inciliar character outside of the Winter Soldier, and he becomes something
more in Winter. This is a movie that's like completely slow rolled the fact for me that we have three super soldiers on the same team, and nobody said about it, like it wasn't like all three of these guys are our super soldiers and.
What defines a super soldier.
They took a serum in their past that.
Like okay, yes, yes, yeah, they're all augmented people, and yet somehow they still made this team again Tom's words to feel ragtag. They're not ragtag in any you know, any other context. These are tours.
I mean, there's so much more layered and human than Steve Rogers was when he became Captain America. He just became noble and strong and heroic. But these people have demons and flaws and real questionable morals with Captain America with White Russell.
Yeah, he is.
A real jerk.
He's a real jerk, and I think this is one of the things that they say, you know that they say in the in this movie. But it's been sort of a one of those legacy lines.
Right.
You give a good guy the super Soldier serum, it's going to amplify all of the good pieces of him. You give people of questionable fiber the super Soldier thing, it will augment the questionable aspects of their personality. And this is a movie that really allows us to explore all of the angles of that, I think in a really interesting way. The weakest for me is Ghost and I love Ghost, but I don't know that we got much from Ghosts.
Yeah, not as much as everybody else, which again I'm okay with. I didn't want it if everyone was Florence Pugh, this would be every other Marvel boat, right. She also it was interesting maybe what made her stand out is she was the most superhero we in that she could phase through things. Everyone else is just punching and shooting. I did want to call out that. I was so excited to see why Russell and Hannah John came in
back together. It's a reunion from my favorite and the scariest Black Mirror episode play.
Oh yes, people are so I got super Yeah. I think the other issue to your point exactly right, like the it would be too much if it was, you know, trying to everybody was Elena, then nobody would be the Elena. But the other pieces, I think they actually resolved her issues of freedom and control and autonomy in ant Man in the Wasp like she comes in, I think with her story most kind of resolved of of everybody. So
now we get to the Century and the void. All right, JJ, could you give us a primer take it away?
JJ?
Yeah, Well, which aspect do you want to talk about?
Right?
I mean, that's the whole point of the Century is that a lot of people will talk objectively about the difference between the Century in the Marvel universe, in Superman in the DC universe, in that the Century was Marvel's attempt at trying to take on someone who is completely in vulnerable and completely all powerful, which I think when you consider the way that Marvel creates a story versus the way DC creates a story, that's why you end
up with the void. Right, that all of Marvel characters historically have had deep flaws, and for Marvel to approach the idea of this all powerful, unstoppable thing, what Marvel wants to infuse in that story, and this does exist in the comics as well, is that there is a shadow of that that is part of that power as well.
And so what we get in the story is that if you create something that's all powerful and you can't kill it, then the thing that will take over in its vulnerability, I'll say, when it is traumatized, is this deep shadow, all powerful, all consuming void. And I loved the way that we dealt with it. Didn't realize that it was a realm until we went there with the characters.
I thought, I didn't find the hug zappy because I actually was bought in with the entire process of dealing with power, dealing with power's shadow, and figuring out that the way to pull ourselves through that is to realize that we're not alone. I thought it was a great sort of physical manifestation of that piece, and I loved it.
I was really into it. So you have the century, you have the void, which, again, to bring up your point, Pete, I hadn't thought about the fact that there were three different super soldiers, and of course the century is an experimental mistake as a result of a different serum. You know, this kind of piece. I think it makes for a very powerful story to see how all these character flaws, all this ragtag band comes together to create an interesting hole that can work together.
I was I think I brought it up to either Pete or JJ.
Maybe not, but I One of the things that I recognized about the trailer is this is the first trailer where they didn't show the bad guy. He showed him from the back, he showed him from a silhouette. Well, then I learned he is just so, he doesn't have a faith, that's why black and two weird eyes. So I get it fair enough.
Well.
Also the fact that we don't ever see him in hero mode like in the movie. We get him in his golden gods, you know, evolution, and they don't show that either. I think I think they actually held it with some intention. Yeah, and I appreciated that. Yeah, showed valuable restraint in that in my and I think.
Lewis Pullman played both sides of that really really well. I mean, he's so good, so good at the emotional and fragile part. But I also believed him when he was slowly becoming a sociopath, as you know, dealing with manic depression, going back and forth, back and forth, feeling because they say he has feelings of grandeur, delusions of grandeur while also being desperately insecure. I mean, that is a recipe for disaster. That's not who you give that suit du so. I just think he is. He really
came on my radar for Bad Times at the l Royale. Yeah, and he's been on my radar ever since.
I think he's awesome.
And we've seen him do vulnerable and insecure and scared so well a few times. So to see him powerful and cocky and sexy was mesmerizing.
I was so impressed.
I love him perfect. He was wonderful in Lessons in Chemistry, terrific show Bad Times at the l Royal, obviously, and he was also Bob in Top Gun Maverick, outstanding, outstanding, the history of Bob all right.
He was one pilot that didn't take your shirt off. Now he can take his shirt off. Good job, Bob, right, he gets to take a shirt of him. And do you know what he deserves? To take that shirt, Bob, well done on you man, Well done. What do we think about our fair director Jake Schreyer?
We are?
Are we fans of Jake?
Do we know?
Did you go into this knowing that Jake was the director of this movie?
No?
Who is?
You know? Jake is? He's an interesting guy I have. I went into this movie knowing that he had done some recent work on a video with Selena Gomez and Benny Bianco Blanco Bianco anyway, so I'd seen that video. He did an episode of Skeleton Crew, so I knew his name was from from that. But he also directed Paper Moon, Paper Towns, the John Green adaptation.
Oh I read that. I didn't see it, but I'm looking. He directed Beat six episode episodes and.
I loved Yeah.
Yeah.
You look at his IMDb and he's been much busier than a lot of new Marvel directors who just make a thing and then blow up and get a Marvel show. This guy has has been working for some time and has a number of credits that I think are are notable to be given this movie. Like I feel like he's sort of I don't know's it unfair to say he's really earned it? Right, he's and I can tell I can feel it. Steve taught me years ago about just this feeling of competence in a director like I
am in good hands. This is a confident, competent film. I didn't feel like I shouldn't trust it. The only time I felt like I was on the edge was at the end, because it felt like it ended abruptly, not because the movie didn't end when it needed to, but because I wasn't ready to stop watching it. And that's a good, good feeling.
Yeah, right, Mission accomplished.
Mission accomplished for sure.
Robot and Frank. Have you guys seen Robot and Frank? Okay, you need to see that because it's Franklin Gella And yeah, knowing that Jake directed Robot and Frank makes sense now with just the feel of Thunderbolts, because it is it's like that. You think it's this like high concept comedy like you know, older man in his sixties, that's Robot. Oh, it's gonna be quirky and you know, goofy. But it has such heart to it and speaks to humanity and everything it is. If you can find it, if it's
streaming anywhere, check it out. It's from twenty twelve, but it is. It is one of those small films that flew under the ritter. But people that saw it were like, this is. They don't make movies like this.
They just don't.
People don't see these types of things. And so seeing that, I'm like, ah, that makes sense. Why Thunderbolts has that heart that it does. That's that's part of who he is is a filmmaker, at least from Robot and Frank.
I see that in his work.
He really mastered tone in a way that hasn't been mastered that well in some of these Marvel movies that you have, like on one side, David Harber doing like a crazy caricature but doesn't go too far. And then these honest, I mean, in a lesser director's hands, this would feel like whiplash, like a bunch of yuck yucks, and then we're talking about depression and then we're doing this and instead he really knew when to slow down.
He really filmed the ensemble outstandingly. This shared some of the same camera work as Guardians of the Galaxy and Civil War of not just having I'm gonna watch you fight, I'm gonna watch you fight I'm gonna watch you fight instead doing these elaborate choreograph one shots where you're seeing this person punch someone out and then you're following this person. So it's almost like a ballet even though it's just punching and shooting. It's really exciting to see.
One of my favorite things about the movie is that it's pacing. In general. I think it is paced very different than most Marvel movies. It gives space where it needs it, and I really feel like that's a function of the director taking the script and saying, no, we're gonna we're gonna spend time here in a way that I noticed, especially in the first third of the film, as we're developing our relationship with these characters that were
tiny characters before, or smaller characters before. I just think it's done really well in that regard.
That's why I think in the trailer they could have they they did such a great job. You could you could hide Bob Sentry as the villain, because just a movie, you know, as you said in that first third, just an entire film of these characters trying to escape from this place was just compelling to watch because we're getting that, you know, character development, but it's like just that struggle between them with the ego, the attitudes, all of that. I thought this could be the whole movie of just
them figuring out how to become a team. I thought, this, this is really complaining, unlike anything Marvel's done, and I thought I would have been just satisfied with that. It reminded me of like movies like Cube, where it's like we're gonna put them together and they got to figure it out together how to do that, So that whole
climbing up the elevator shaft, all of those things. It was such a different feel for Marvel at different pace, and I thought, here's here's We're not getting into ridiculous jokey stuff. It's none of that. It just really was earnest and serious about I'm going to take these these characters that nobody you know, every sort of written off a side characters and take them seriously and say, Okay, let's put them in this tough situation and how are they gonna how are they going to come together or
not come together? And that in itself is something compelling to watch.
I got like a stand by me vibe, and for the first third you know, it's like they were all arguing, joking, helping, hurting.
It was it was I liked that a lot.
Is part of that maybe a result of the practicality of these heroes that they can't fly. That apart from ghosts, they don't have superheroes. It's a bunch of batmans. Is that when you're forced to be human like that, and in Cheme, you have to come up with practical, non cgi ways to solve things. You can't fly, You have to take a weird limousine across the desert. I wonder if some of that is it's just it's it's automatically
so much more grounded than Red Presidents. I don't remember, you know what I mean, Like, it just puts you in a human situation more than a lot of these other movies can afford.
It was delightfully practical in all of the ways that I think count right. I just I could feel the wirework in the fight scenes, particularly in the incinerator sequence. I thought that was really fun. And you know, whatever they did to the spider walking out of a well was just chef's kiss. I thought that was fantastic. I love that they collectively arrive at the at the puzzle of how to stop spider walking at the same time, that was a great beat, A great beat, a great, great, great beat.
I'd like to ask a question kind of a about Julia Louis Dreyfuss here too, because we go through the whole cast here and I saw and Mandy, I'm so glad you're here to talk about this because one of the things that Julia said, because they asked her about in particular Florence Pugh and Geraldine. I'm going to say that the last name wrong, but this Wonathan, I think, is how you say her last name, who plays her assistant
in the film. That yes, mel, thank you. Julia mentioned that they asked Julia about what were some of the things that she sort of learned and was inspired by and working with these two women. And one of the things that Julia picked up on, or that she really liked about this film that she said was that the female characters in particular were not defined by their relationships with the men in the movie, that they all were
standalone characters of their own. And I wanted to know if you noticed that, because honestly, in watching the film I didn't, but hearing her say that felt like a breath of fresh air, and I definitely recognize it now that it's been highlighted.
For me, I didn't notice it, and I'm appreciating hearing it.
And what is the Bechdel test?
Yeah, that's so.
But I guess this passes and that's thrilling. And it's thrilling that I wasn't watching.
It going oh good, good, good, because then I would be taken out of the fun of watching a movie and being engaged in the story.
Yeah, it does both, right, I mean when Yeah, that's how I felt too when I heard that from her, because I didn't notice and I just like the care, like everything we said about Florence p before, like clearly this is her movie, and at no point where we, uh you, sort of championing them for the good that they're doing in that role. We were just appreciating how well done this movie is in doing that and not feeling like it had to do anything different in regards
to gender. So I'm glad. I'm glad you felt that way too, because that's where I was with.
This and casting Julia Luis Dreyfus. Always fun to watch somebody so beloved, so lovable be so evil. It's just pure fun, great idea, great casting. She is one of my idols, so that's.
An I didn't get Elaine vibes from her at all. In le this was a great role for her because.
Meyer, yeah, I'm going to say, there's walking and talking.
And right, but even her, because if you look at her as if if she's the next iteration of like a Nick Fury character, she's even flawed because once Century gets all his power, he's like, why does a god need to listen to you? And she's like, oh crap, I didn't figured that out. I thought I had outsmart him.
And then at the end, you know when Elena says, you know, okay, we own you now basically, so it's it's it's even in that role she's this master, but even she has her her blind spots and her weaknesses, and so we have. And I think that's why that fact j AJ may not present itself as obviously because these just feel like real, fleshed out, rounded people. They're not types. It's not the damsel in distress that it
needs to be saying. It's just this is a whole person dealing with life, and they all are, and so those gender, stereotypes, any of that stuff is not part of their story anymore because we're just dealing with them as human beings, struggling with life and how to get through that, and learning that it is better to be with a group of flawed people than face the darkness alone.
That these can be the worst people they you know, that I can't trust them or whatever, but it's still better than being alone than that.
It.
Wow. Yeah, I have this sort of persistent fear that Julia Luis Dreyfus is just in it for the lulls and eventually we'll say I don't want to do anymore because what I want is I want her to continue to be a fleshed out, troubled Nick Fury. Right, I want her to be our maladaptive Nick Fury and get a redemption narc and she needs Runway to do that because I don't think she's going to get another movie
where she has this big of a part. Right, we know who Valentina is now, and Nick Fury his part just went down, down, down over the course of his contributions, and so I want more Julia Luis drives. I hope she sticks it out and that she continues to see value in it. She's terrific. We're going to come back. We're going to do our Letterbox rankings in just a bit,
but in the form of a teaser. As all good Marvel movies, we're going to talk about the post credit sequences, but we're going to do it as a member's only post credit sequence. So head over to a True Story fm slash join and become a member and support all of the shows of the next real family of film podcasts. Keep our microphones hot, and food on our plates and shoes on our feet. That's what it takes. A true
story do FM slash join you sign up. A couple of dollars a month from your wallet goes a long way to keeping us hosting podcasts. And we love doing it, and we love talking about movies. Even if we purport to do new release movies the weekend they come out and just retcon to make you think that we're on time, even though we're two weeks tardy's that's what we do. That's the film board promise. True Story NFM slash join Letterbox. We're on Letterbox. Our family of film podcasts is over
there at letterbox dot com. Slash the next reel out of five stars. If you are brave, if you're a real Winter soldier like me, you only use whole stars. Maybe you're a chump and you use half stars. Half stars count for some people both the two options the other braver a chump? And do you give this film a heart?
JJ?
Where are you going to start.
Well on the brave chump spectrum? I show up those quite brave this week in two a four stars and a heart. Yeah, I love it. And because I'm not doing it because I can't give it a half star, I just think that's where it really sits for me. I like I said, it's a top ten Marvel movie for me. I haven't ranked out everywhere where Day belong, but I think it's probably around like seven or eight, is what I'm guessing. I liked it. I'm really happy with it.
Tommy on McKinsey scale, we're all kind of pumpish to a certain extent.
I believe we're all rump fluid. But I agree with JJ.
I would give I give it a four, a four and a heart. I really enjoyed this movie, and this will be one that I will come back to and again. It flew by and that is just not my history with these movies, and so I was really excited, loved everything about.
It, all right, Steve, Yeah, it's a solid four. This was it really stood out, maybe because the past match of Marvel movies have just really really not been great, and so you know, I had to think about it. Is it just in comparison just feel so much better? But you know, after all this time sitting with it, I'm like, now, this is really solid. As Jay said, it is one of the top Marvel films for what it's doing. So four stars and a heart definitely.
All right, got three point six.
Just to upset Pete and I'll give a heart and I'll say, uh, you know, for a non Marvel Knower it was very entertaining and very funny, and I just wish people punched each other less.
Okay, let's war hugs less us in the MCU, that's what we're looking for, Okay.
In the world.
This this has been a real treat. I'm so you guys. I feel like every time we come together and do a movie that we generally like we've won the universe a little bit because our history is not good on that front. Yes, it has been delightful talking about a movie that we all genuinely like and appreciate with you and a special plug to Mandy. You say you don't know anything about uh, you know, superheroes and stuff, but
your conversation about Captain America. The first Avenger with John Monday goes live to members on Monday and to the public, you know, a week after that. So a whole show you did on Captain America. So yes, I say, yeah, let's not be completely disinting awareness of this stuff. Okay, And thank you Mandy Kaplin and Justin Yeger and Tommy Mets Third and Steve Sarmento. You guys are the best. I'm so so glad we could come together on this show.
Thank you all, dear listeners for your time and attention. Whether you agreed or disagreed, or just came here to shout at your phones, we appreciate you. If you had forget, I had fun. Don't forget. Head to our Discord server a True Story FM Slash Discord and again, if you really love what we do, consider be becoming a supporting
member at True Story FM Slash. Join for all the exclusive perks and secret channels in Discord whatever you do now, watch more movies, don't let them get you angry, and remember, go find your crew to help you. Spider walk out of a well just in case. Meeting adjourned.