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The film board gathers. The Gang of Thugs is here to take on a movie currently in theaters in this month. We're suiting up, grabbing the shield, and stepping into a world where power is contested, legacies are tested, and the fate of nations rests on the edge of a vibrandamatium blade. It's Captain America, Brave New World. I've spent my whole life trying to protect this country.
They see a weapon.
I see the future, and one.
That I will create.
I am here to help you, mister President.
I got to get our birds in the air.
Ready to fly now, Sir, Yeah.
I'm Captain.
If you fight for a broken system, I'll show you the world change.
Really change.
Have you been feeling like yourself?
Somebody gets If we don't stop it now, the world will fall. Let go.
Super Soldiers, mutants, They're nothing compared to what I can build with this.
You ask for me here, I am.
Your shield won't stop what's coming.
In Captain.
In Captain America, Brave New World, our man Sam isn't just fighting enemies. He's fighting expectations, political agendas, the ghosts of the past, and a deep desire to undo doping regulations. A new world order is rising, but is it built on justice or mind control? This week we're peeling back the skull cap of the Leader, challenging the toxicity of the die behind Red Hulk, and judging all the impossible
choices facing our new cap. And who better to explore legacy, power and the cost of heroism than the panel we've got today. Don't give him a buzz cut because you'll see all those ridges.
It's just I should have taken this serum, howdy.
And if you make him really angry, he grows a mustache. It's Tommy Mets, the third superhero reference, a man who has recently given me reason to repeat, Thank god we still have a Steve on our team. At least it's Steve's sarmento.
I'm no Steve Rogers.
And if the government ever tried to control his mind, they'd find movie quotes and snacks all from nineteen ninety four it's Mike Gravano from Movie of the Year and The Superhero Show Show. Mike, Welcome, they come and read. Now, I get it. I get what we're supposed to do is we're introduced. Yeah, there're bits, Mike. We're going to do our plugs early because I'm so excited that you're finally here. Introduce yourself to the good people and tell
us where you're from. Hello, good people and folks.
As Pete mentioned, I am on The Superhero Show Show, where every week we watch every single TV show based on comic books and review them. When we started, there were four so it was easy to do and we were very young.
None of those things are true anymore.
And then Movie of the Year, where each season we tackle a year, build a bracket and make them fight to find the best movie of that year. We're just wrapping up the best of twenty twenty four, which is against all the formats I've just said. So we've been going through music, TV conedy, TV drama, and finally films.
Yeah, you know, Album of the Year, Series of the Year. I listened to those. I have issues. I'll tell you next time we're together. I can't wait. Anyhow, I'm very excited to talk about this show, and I'd like to open with a segment I call opening thoughts aka, what does Tom need to know to be able to talk about this movie?
I was lucky enough to be. I was just in Minnesota last week with a friend of the show, Darnell Smith, who is an avid marblehead, and he was able to give me. So he's watched everything, most importantly Captain Shield and Winterman or whatever, and so he was able to give me the stuff that I needed to know because filled with characters that I'd never seen nor heard of.
I'm going to be shocked if he knew some of the things that he thought he needed to know.
But anyway, yeah, go forth.
This is the thing. This is a sequel to a movie that's seventeen years old. Really. As global tensions rise over another newly discovered metal with world altering potential, Sam Wilson, now fully stepping into his role as Captain America, is
drawn into high stakes political and military conflict. Alongside his new falcon Joaquin Torres, and unexpected diminutive allies, Wilson must navigate the web of espionage mind control in seventeen years past betrayals to prevent a dangerous conspiracy from spiraling out of control. That's right, the fate of nations is hanging in the balance, and now our Winged Captain America faces his greatest test yet, when the challenge is not just to strength but his belief in what it truly means
to be a hero. So much drama right there, there's so much drama. Do you like how I didn't spoil anything yet? This is where you turn off the show? Oh if you haven't seen the movie and you care, because now we're going to start spoiling it. I feel like we kind of need to talk about how Sam Wilson shapes up as a cinematic Captain America, especially as he makes the leap from Captain America and The Winter Soldier the Disney Plus series. Is that a fair place
to start? Do we like articular hero at this point in the story? And I'm gonna start with Tom because ugh, I don't. I don't because I'm a sociopath and on some level, sure, what did you think of Winged cap.
Well, I hadn't seen any of the TV show, and I haven't seen all of the films, and so I've even't seen some of the films I mean, and so this was my main first time seeing him. I felt like in action that I can really remember, and I thought in the beginning he was very charming, and I thought he was neat. He was very cinematic, he was fun, He looks the part. He's flipping around doing things. He as a character and as a likability source liked the movie.
For me. I know we didn't do opening thoughts, but I'm doubling this is my opening thought of I know films are not filmed in chronological order. That would be insane, but I feel like this movie secretly was. Because the movie started off whip smart, clear eyed, exciting, and then slowly got more and more tired and goofy as it went, and more and more confused, and by the end, I feel everyone just sort of was like, that's a rap.
I felt like his character unfortunately felt that same way to me when I was like, wow, I'm in good hands, and then as the script wasn't what I thought it was and things changed. He is not able to lift up an entire film by himself, nor should he be in charge of doing that, But so did that.
Sort of answer man. Okay, so that I'll just say that hurts my heart a little bit because the past Cat movies, I felt like our Steve Rogers could hold up the movie himself, right. And that's the problem that I had walking out of this movie because I have such great hopes and desires for Macki and for this Sam Wilson. I want more than anything for them to be successful. What is this? Who's the We've got JJ Mike. You guys are comic guys, superhero guys. Look, we've even
got the shield on the wall. How does Sam Wilson havelf There's so much? How does this live up to live up to the legacy of Sam Wilson that we've known from the books.
I'm a I'm a fan of Sam Wilson in general. I think his take on Captain America has has been very cool. Uh.
I'm a cap guy.
That's CAP's my guy in all Shapes reforms and Sam Wilson from going from like one of the extended characters sidekicks to Captain his own right. Huge fan, big fan of Anthony Mackie going back to eight Mile, he was great as Clarence. He was the one good part of the hurt Locker I find him very charming generally, and him and so many people, not just him, felt like they forgot how to act in this movie.
And I don't think that's his fault.
I think tired Tom is such a good apt description because you're allowed to do more than one or two drafts of a script, and there's some dialogue that was so basic and simple.
It really felt like they did not push beyond that. And even yes, yes, it was like, uh, serious line here, then quip and so. And I don't think.
I think Mackie when he has time to sit in a tone, he can do it. But the whiplash of oh, now we're talking about serious racial issues and now we're gonna quip and what can to just quip it?
Uh No, nobody, nobody could do it. Nobody could handle that.
And I mean, I think that both you guys are completely correct, And I think the interesting thing that I would the thing that I would assert is that Captain America as a vehicle for the Marvel Cinematic Universe is not about Captain America at all. I think Sam Wilson Anthony Mackie as CAP showing up in the TV series really worked like the in the in Captain America in the Winter Soldier, as he made the sort of evolution to become cap By the end of that I believed it.
I was into it. I was all that things.
But if you look at what they've done since Winter Soldier in the MCU, you get Civil War, which is not a Captain America movie. It's just a Marvel movie. And this movie, I would argue, is the same thing. This is not really a Captain American movie.
Pete.
You alluded to it in your intro as well. This is a sequel to The Incredible Hulk. This is This really has very little to do with Captain America, So I agree. I don't think Sam held up the story, but I don't think that was his job here. I think I think Anthony Mackett did a great job of everything he was given here, and then they just played out the Marvel things, which and.
Again we're not doing induistal thoughts, but for me, that made this a really good movie.
This is me, I mean, please do I mean really like I This is This is like right in the middle, like a nice C plus B minus Marvel movie for me. And I'm so happy that they answered many of the criticisms that have been happening ever since Endgame with connective tissue. In this film, it's a great Marvel lore movie, not a great a Captain America movie. But I enjoyed it quite a bit for all those things.
Good all right, Steve, initial thoughts, go ahead, everybody else, you've done it.
Get you know when you're when when you're in middle school and you go over to a friend's house, it's like, oh, do you have some soda? And they're like sure, You're like great, can I have some Doctor Pepper? And they pour you something but it's Doctor Thunder, so it tastes like Doctor Pepper, but it's like a pale shadow of that, like something is just off. It's there in the general area of that flavor profile, but it's just not there.
That's what I felt about this movie. It there were so many things where I thought, oh, we're we've got sort of second tier Captain America. Oh, we've got this mysterious personal security person who's uh widows. So we've got a Captain America black widow type of thing that they're
trying to set up. But there were so many things where I felt like it's this rewarmed version of the Captain America Winter Soldier we liked, you know, we don't have Hydro, Who've got the Serpent Society, And it was just always like watered down versions of what we already had. It didn't feel like a retread of Winter Soldier. It just felt like a really hollow going to Mike's point, like a first draft copy of well, let's let's try these things again.
And it had the components.
It just yeah.
And to JJ's point, I was looking back through my notes, we got so much exposition about Ross at the beginning. I'm like, is this a Captain America movie or not? Is really the story of you know, Ross and his story, because we've got that going on. So I don't think the movie settled on whose story this was because I wasn't invested in anybody, really, I didn't have a direction to be rooting for, and so I just walked out with my you know, the bad aftertaste of Doctor Thunder at the end of this.
That was always carib to me. I'd go over to my buddy Matt McGarrity's house and his mom would try to gaslight me that this chocolate was not carib It was carib we all knew, so I you know, I guess I'm with you. And I feel like the shape of Sam Wilson's Captain America was effectively understudy to the octagenarian President story. And that surprised me, maybe more than
anything else in this movie. I knew obviously that Harrison Ford was taking over the role of Thunderbolt Ross, I did not know that this was going to be a Thunderbolt Ross movie. And I found myself puzzled by that mike. And there's a way to wait.
How clean is this show? I just want to know how off I can go clean? No, I'm glad, I asked, ye, that's the vibe, so.
I wish he was party.
Whatever you want?
Why I am right now it's so loud.
Why Winter's Soldier worked is it was pretty pretty clearly mapped to like Three Days of the Condor, Right.
I love political thrillers. This uh as Steve.
Said, it was pretty poorly mapped to Winter Soldier, And you know what have worked, especially if you're gonna put Ross is map it too?
Like Maturian Candidate. Do that again. I would love to see make good movies, but now these remake good movies. But now they have powers.
Cool, especially if you're gonna go this Thunderboard Rolls does not know he's the Red Hulk, which is very different than in the comics. Aim at that and also, don't bait and switch us called. I know there's like legal issues, but I don't know. Maybe don't make that movie until you legally can because it's giving short shrift to Cap while he's sort of in the background doing with am I supposed to be Cap? I know I had a TV show that was about that, but not everybody saw
that TV show. So I'm gonna I'm gonna do that warmed over again as well, Like it's it's unfair now drop in a bunch of f bombs.
This is the This is I think the challenge that I have that you're getting at, which is there are ideas in this movie that are great. I love the idea of gaslighting the president and and that twist from the books where Thunderbolt Ross has been taking these pills for his heart to keep him alive. I really like that idea. Like that concept is awesome.
I don't know how you screw that up.
But what what we got on screen by like the this movie was structurally disjointed and clumsy in spite of a lot of really interesting concepts that could have made for a great cap movie.
Tom, I think that's just the there's what five or six credited writers, and even as many just for story. It makes me think of a writer's room where they all kept fighting for their original ideas, because this movie has five big ideas, all in search of a through line. And I just wonder if you get that many people and the writer's guild gets involved, that nobody backs down, then you just keep putting more things and then give
weird I like the praise short Shrift. I'm gonna start saying that now, but short Shrift to like basic things like I know we haven't talked about the big bad yet, and we're going to get to that doctor who villain. But the idea of how like what's overlooked is his real power is how he's able to call any phone, any walkie talkie, any fight receiver at will, Like that's he just shows up places dressed like the UDA bomber.
He knows he's able to be whatever wherever he needs to be and do whatever he needs to do just to keep the story moving forward. They don't feel the need to explain that. And yet this film is filled with speeches, filled with much exposition and so much speed, and it's like you're not even bothering to tell the tale that you're doing because there's so much clep.
Well, that's it, And and the logic problems in this film are just I mean, there's their legion. They're all over the place, and you could what what what gave.
You the most?
What's what are the some of the splinters that.
Well, I mean, it's really hard when nothing is explained about Red Hulk to explain to people who don't know about Red Hulk that everything he's touching turns to fire, like I mean, of course there is there is a lore in well, like when he gets smashed into the White House, the white house catches on fire. When he punches into a car, the car immediately explodes into flame.
Like these things he puts his feet on the ground, he leaves flaming.
Foots because the Red Hulk, the anger he gets, the hotter he gets, right, Okay, And he basically say that at all this is a point, right, So, like, if you are a Tommy watcher to this film, like and you try to examine the logic.
It's just a nightmare.
And that could be with all those things you bring it up, with the leader and the fact that he can do anything, call anything technology, you know, all these things, the logic problems don't exist, and I think, or I mean, they do exist.
They're all over the place.
And I think the problem is is that they The thing that I liked about the movie was that they were spending time in exposition tying up loose ends, which is again the thing that I wanted from eight Marvel movies before this, So I get that here. But then if you look at this as a standalone film, it's
it's it doesn't make sense unfortunately. So that's that's a hard problem because so many of the things that they're feeding me as easter eggs and storylines and planting seeds for what's to come, has me literally cheering in the theater as a comic fanboy. But none of that is explained in the simple, isolated story of New World Order.
And for me, there are no loose threads because everything yea Marvel is one big yarn store.
One one of the loose threads that they came back to, which honestly, I was the Eternals. Oh a a an homage to the Marvel team that was the Eternals. We have Celestial Island now, and there is u There are geopolitical tensions around Celestial Island because Adamantium is inside it. I'm sorry, why are you laughing? It's right, because this is one of those things where I was so excited
to hear the word because I'm a fan. I like stuff. Yeah, yes, that, And I thought you're gonna shoehorn Adamantium into the Avengers storyline by way of the Eternals. Is that how it was in the books? Where did Adamantium come from? Was it was not from the seed? Right?
No?
No, But I mean I was laughing out loud at this this bit. I thought, this is okay, I get it. This is the challenge of reading the news about these studios. The more you know, the more ridiculous it is. The hoops they have to jump through to write these threads together.
Very true, But Celestial Island is arguably the biggest complaint that people have with the consistency of Marvel movies post Eternals. The fact that this thing exists on the planet and nobody's talking about it. You know, mar the MCU did a great job of talking about the blip post Infinity War, and then they dropped it into lots of things. Celestial Island has not been talked about, and everyone when people complain about the consistency, they're like.
Isn't this a big deal? Wouldn't people be talking about this?
So the fact that it's shoehorned in I actually don't have a problem with because if you look at the cut scene from The Marvels and bringing the Mutants in, you look at the end of Miss Marvel and bringing the Mutants in, these kind of things, like all of the things that they're doing to try to bring the mutants in. Now that they settled that damn lawsuit with Fox, I am a go for So, yes, go ahead and shoehorn Adamantium to the celestial and then connect it to
the Japanese orient origin of Wolverine. I'm all about it, Like, if we can do that, Like, that's great, right, I mean, And so this is like again opening me up for hope in terms of the MCU that I haven't had until I saw this movie. So, yes, these things are shoehorned, Yes they are, But I don't mind it. I'm I'm all for it right now. It's it's on screen and I'm loving it.
Okay, I love your boundless optimism, Mike, as another as a cap guy and another comic guy. Do you share the boundless optimism for the future.
No, I wish I could. I wish I had your optimism. JJ that nothing in Phase five has made me hopeful. That sure, there's seeds here, but they haven't been good with planting and harvesting for years now.
So I'm like, oh, cool, more things. I love your ruin. It's marvel. Everything is for you.
It's what you imagined as a kid, and it's middling cool. Thanks thanks Disney, Thank you Entertainment.
But it hasn't always been that way, right, Mike. I mean like, okay, so that's the thing. I mean, yes, they have disappointed us, and they've dropped We're the babies that they've dropped now since Endgame. But the reality is they have accomplished more in cinema than anyone else in the history of cinema.
The Infinity saga was so masterful and and wow, and then they started playing with scared money even though like you did a thing that can never be done. But it's like they're the wiley coyote and they looked down after endgame and.
They're like, oh, what are we doing?
And then it just started like like I don't care about connections. I care about and maybe this is wrong to think about Marvel in this way. I care about a good movie. And Marvel doesn't make movies. They they they do make, sorry other Marvel fans, they do make a giant on screen rollercoaster rides or like a very long TV show, and that is a different thing. And so part maybe I keep getting burned because I keep being like, maybe this one will be a movie.
No, it won't be.
Yeah, what was the last one?
Was the last one that you felt was a movie?
Anyone? Anyone?
And that's not just for Mike, I would say, I would argue for me, it was Shang Chi, Like I really liked it, felt like a good movie separate from everything.
And my issues was I love Chunxi. My issues with that were the issues that I have a lot with a lot of superheroes. Is great two thirds and then sure CGI glows and thrown at each other who cares, uh, but other than Matt love And that's what I want. I want two thirds of a great thing. That's that's all I that's where my.
That's where the Yeah, so we weren't we weren't excited about I'm so I note there that shang Chi is the only Phase four film that we're talking about, right, uh And it was only the second technically the first because Black Widow what was that? But then it was all downhill nobody no, nobody has love for Spider Man, No Way Home and.
That movie.
Yeah, I felt like that was a movie.
Is that's where the whole three of them come back.
That was a lot of fun gas that Wolverine. Oh, I love it, super fun.
But they're doing their own things and it is like, oh, now you have to know about twenty years of movies and so like it's those were great though, the super enjoyable times, but like it still didn't feel like a movie movie. I guess I like Guardians three. I like Guardians three a lot.
Okay, okay, Guardians three. So now we're into Phase five. We have some love for Phase five, and that's Guardians three and Deadpool and Wolverine. And I'll tell you high optimism for me. I'm really liking what I'm seeing from Thunderbolts and Fantastic Four. Those things have me excited, uh in a new way? Your head, I'm watching you, Hedge.
Well, so this was the thing.
I because I saw the preview for the Thunderbolts before this movie.
I was like cool.
But then I get halfway through this and Bucky shows up and he's running from Congress, So I'm like, how are we gonna That's a big leap from I'm running from Congress too. I'm in the Marvel version of the Suicide Squad doing stuff like that's a lot.
Of story to happen.
It's like, oh, is that the We'll do a TV series to explain what happens in between these time periods. But I agree, I like the feel of that, but it does get into an area of something that is you know, for me, becoming problematic with these Marvel movies is just the cheesy jokes and stuff where it's just because it's just tired, you know. I'm like, how many times can it's like, Oh, we're gonna say something off
the cuff and it's it's a bad joke. I mean, the whole Bucky showing up and Sam's like, oh, did your speech writers write that. I'm like, yeah, okay, it got laughs from the audience, but I just feel like that is another thing that's just been overplayed.
It was crickets in mind, and it's a long cricket yes, because they really they don't know how to end the joke, just keep going. And I think I got a whiff of uh letting the stars do a little bit too much improv and so that each one of them wanted to have the final line, so it just kept yes.
Yes, it really shows you believe in that the emotional core of your scene or the movie when you undercut it immediately. What if what if two people who are dealing with something serious and like your new mentee is almost dead, what if you just sat What if you just sat in emotion for one second cool and ended with I love you and like that that that meant that, I like the I love you was so much more.
Meaningful than me. Right.
I'm so happy that they said that, Like I literally was was asking for that in my mind before they said that.
It was so great.
But I think the issue is who is Marvel making these movies for. I think you know, vinas Saga, We're getting to like Mike's point, these are films. I think what there seems to me they're leaning into is we're doing comic book movies and our key audience is twelve year old, so they don't want to deal with serious
drama and emotion. That's boring or I'm not equipped to deal with processing those feelings now, so we undercut it with a joke because my primary audience is teenage boys, so I can do things that are you know, water down copies of things and all that, because there'll be one hundred percent on board for that. But we, as you know, grumpy old men veteran film viewers, are like, I've seen this done before and ten times better, and
this is, you know, a boring trope. You know, you're doing the same thing again, and so I have to bring that mindset to this film of maybe my expectations are wrong from this and I'm putting too much on this, and can I just sit back and say, yeah, it's like picking up another issue of a comic book, and sure the story's familiar all that, but I'm.
Just going to go with it.
As as Mike said, a roller coaster ride, it's going to be the same ride I know what the thrills are, I know what that is, but a certain reward in that in and of itself. I it's the only way I can reconcile how to feel about this movie without being angry and disappointed.
I don't want to go through life like that. So what joy can I find?
It was?
It was fine, it was fun. It's time for me. It's I think that let's uh, I think that let's marvel off too easily, Steve, because because as we keep going back to Winter Soldier, as we keep going back Toinity, where these characters were allowed to live in sadness and fear for a while and not have to out quit each other every single beat. Uh, they are, They're capable for making these movies. Instead, what do we get in Phase five? We get Deadpool and Wolverine, which is the
ultimate dopamine hit for us. Right, we're the audience right here, podcasters the adult guy. And there is precious little substance in that movie too, right, that movie what? I loved that movie. But we got a scene in a diner where they were like snipping at each other for what forty five seconds on screen talking about their legacy. It was just dopamine. So I really enjoyed it. Does it live up to what we got in Three Days of the condor Marvel?
No?
I don't think it does. I think that's the thing that scares me the most. As the movies get are written in a more formulaic, more simplistic way, there is still this need to mirror, mirror ape real geopolitical tensions. Right. And because so much of this movie takes place in the White House and through and in the situation room and all the rooms with lots of video screens, I wonder, what are we thinking about how well the movie handles the stuff that we can see when we turn on
the TV or you know, the latest stream. Mike is already shaking his head. I haven't finished the sentence.
The writers of this, I think have heard of the show The West Wing. That is their level of knowledge and understanding of geopolitical interactions.
Yeah, yeah, I mean we're literally talking about the atamatium.
You stole my amaxium.
It is not a complex global issue to talk about a single resource in this way.
But the Japanese Prime Minister was hot. He was angry, clearly hot in a oh he was also Yeah, this is a real smokestack.
It seemed like there was a version of this movie in one of the nine scripts that they melded together, where it was trying to make more aims. We do have these like misinformation, We do have a renegade in the White House. He literally turns kind of orange at some point, like there's no reason to like go and so it's and then like to bring an Israeli soldier into it, albeit a fun sized one. But like it seemed like there were all of these interesting, potentially interesting
things going on and they've all been sanded down. Yeah to the fact that I don't know what this film's politics are. If they are, it's too busy talking about heroes. But like just to bring up that same thing of like to have Leader Man show up, right, I mean, as the unibomber, he has the glasses and everything. What's going on? What are these cultural touch points that lead
to nothing? But it makes me crazy because I'm trying to see through it and hook them all together and instead it's just a bunch of dispirit touchstones, which doesn't help.
And you know, earlier we had you know, in Marvel Earth, we had the Cecovia Accords. We had something named this they threw around, It's the treaty, the treaty, the treaty. I'm like, the treaty for what is that? The Adamantium treaty what?
You know?
I knew that was an important thing, but all he talked about got to get the treaty signed. I'm like, is there another treaty? It's just mcguffin treaty that I didn't know what why Ross was so invested in it. I you know, there was so much going on of who actually stole the Adamantium? Was that actually the CIA?
Why not?
And I realized it doesn't matter because nobody knows. It doesn't matter because it's just mcguffin to get Ross, you know, to get angry at the end. And I thought, you know, that was so disappointing because I've thought, at the beginning, I'm on the edge of my seat. Oh, here's some interesting politics. Who is this serpent society? Where where are they? What kind of force are they in this geopolitical you know,
what are they trying to do? And I realized none of it matters it when it comes down to it, I don't have any reason to care, because I can't make sense of it, and I don't think any of these characters even cared about it at all.
That ends up being just a bunch of disparate things held together by probability. If you probability enough, it's like, yes, well, I guess if you have a character that can see the future and take care of every communication device in the world, yeah, you can get stuff done.
What I would argue is that it's not held together by probability. It's held together by Marvel easterings or Marvel scenes for the future. So this is again the point that I've been making the entire time about this movie. It is not a great movie, but it is a solid Marvel movie because all they're doing I don't think
they do make a connection to actual geopolitics. I think they are using it, as Steve says a mcguffin here, to get to the points of the story they want to talk to, which are adamant to Celestial Island, you know, rebuild the Avengers, like these are the things that this is all they're caring about in this movie. It is a transition film to get to the next of what's happening and I would argue the thing about the Thunderbolts.
I had the exact same thought you did, Steve, which is like, how is he going to go from Congress to the Thunderbolts? But that makes a fantastic complicating incident for that next movie.
If we get there. So I'm all about that.
And I love the cast of Thunderbolts so much that I find myself like weeping with joy in the trailer just to see Florence Pugh and David Harbor, like just to see these people on screen again.
So I'm just really happy that that's where we're going next.
The direction the director was Julius ohna Nigerian born director who is has done some interesting things. I think you did Loose, didn't you, guys?
Rewind Yes, we did.
It was a very very character driven story, so I thought that's what he would bring to this. And I see he's got you know, writing credit on this, and like, oh he complex story, characters tackling big issues and Nope, not here.
Yeah, I mean this is another one at Cloverfield paradox Is on the list. He did that for Netflix, I guess, and this is another one where I I think he's clearly a competent and talented director. And I wonder if this story was too big. It just becomes too much thoughts on direction.
This isn't Julius. Is that that this isn't on Julius. This is the Marvel trend is like, Oh, this like hot indie director. Let's bring them in, but they can't direct the CGI. We have our own in house guys who will do that. Which some of my favorite part was the two the falcon cap flying and fighting. I was like, oh, oh that's fun, that's cool. Uh so you're you're undercutting everything these cool indie directors have to bring and they that they are younger, so and they're
going up against this behemoth that is Marvel Studios. So maybe they do need like a favro, like somebody's been around a little longer who can work with CGI and somebody who can like throw their weight around a little harder than somebody younger in their career. Which is probably why Marvel's going after this, because they they're like, oh, there's a paycheck and then you get to make the thing you actually care about.
Yeah, but that's a utility director like fungible.
Yeah, but that doesn't for an interesting that then we're undercutting Julius and anything he would bring to it is going away, and then we're undercutting the big, fun blockbusters thing that we want to see because it's their odd odds with direction.
This sort of gets into direction and cinematography and editing all in one. I didn't think the film looked very good. I think maybe they were trying to go for that sort of cold war ish, gritty kind of look, but instead it just looked like foggy, like it looked really
grainy and gross. It was, but not in the beginning that opening scene in Mexico, which was my favorite part, and the film never fully leapt up to that, like when he landed and he goes wait for it and then the what it called the cloud comes back.
I was like, return to farm.
I think I screamed, returned to farm, but that I was.
I was very much corrected.
But it just looked really sludgy. And then so that's just a choice of like what kind of film stock or probably what kind of digital effect you put on it later I didn't care for. And also some of the action was great, a lot of it you lost your center of where things were and who was where and then some of it the editing was so sloppy in some of the fights. The only thing I can
think of he didn't get the shot. There wasn't enough to cut to because things were like almost as bad as like coming in from the left and then reappearing on the right, like things were just kicks were appearing halfway through, And that just tells me, I mean, you editors, there were two different editors on it. If you just don't have the footage you have to get this guy over to the other side of the room, so you
just sort of fudge it. So that makes me worried about the direction for that too, that I didn't feel he had a handle except for the opening sequence on all of the action, which seems like that should be your start.
Yeah, I think Steve makes a really good point in that Loose sort of the beauty of Loose was its character and like focusing on the characters. And if you boil this movie down and get some of those character scenes, you know, other than the quips, like we get some of that good stuff when we're there, but that's not that is not what a Marvel movie is. So you run into all of those other things of effects and fights and stuff, and that's not really what this director is all about.
Unfortunately, I think ye.
This movie at one point was on track to be released ahead of Deadpool and Wolverine. What suffered massive, massive rescheduling due to rewrites and reshoots.
Interesting, that's you know what kind of do you know what kind of stuff was added?
Jan Carlo Esposito's character was not in the original shoot or the junk yard fight. Those were some of the best parts, and so those came away later. Yeah, yeah, I.
Bet that was a reaction to the incredibly underwhelming Tim Blake Nelson, who I love, but he is an under He underplays an under written character that looks bad.
Like instead two movies cartoon movie.
And I just like whenever G and Carlo was knocked out, I was like, no, the movie I cared about. I was so much more interested in him.
Oh wow, which is why he's when he's gone, he's really gone.
You feel it an enormous thing to add to the movie.
Huge, that's a lot.
Of movie that they and this in theory, maybe it's Thunderbolts, but this should be the end of the They've said this is the end of the era of where we start filming before we have a finished script.
We'll see, Marvel, We'll see. But that's what they've said. What'd you say, it's the monkeys part? Just yeah, uh so that that's that's non trivial complications to make this movie and you know part and partial two, having a lot of writers, a lot of underwhelming content ultimately, and yet that first part of the movie, I think when they're in like the boxing ring, it looks the best,
it feels the best. Like the early part of the movie, I think they do a solid job building this character and building this character who is dealing with the fact that he never took the serum. I think there is an interesting angle here that we yeaut We did kind of have that played out in you know, the the series, and yet I thought this one, I thought they seeded it well to show why Sam Wilson is different than Steve Rogers and we have to hear that. We have
to see it, they have to make that case. I feel let down by the fact that they only said I want you to help me rebuild the Avengers and didn't give us the scene like we got at the end of was it of Iron Man where they walk through.
And that's what I did.
The cut scene to me, Yeah, yes, don't say anything about the cut scene. We're talking about the scene at the end in our post credits post credits chat. That's right, we have the credits post credits chat.
But your point is well taken, and that that is again I'll just sort of point back to those those sort of outline points that I mentioned in terms of the marveling.
Of this movie.
That's one of the interesting things. So do something with that because that's the thing that people are going to care about and.
Why we show up exactly just the three I don't know. I would ask you what you you feel like you're the signature action scene is of the movie. We have the Celestial Island fight. Mike already brought that up. We have the white House fight, the destruction of the White House. A number of these things were teased in the you know, in the in the tea, in the trailer. We have the Red Hulk fight at the end in Cherry Tree Lane. Am I missing a big sequence?
Oh well not in the Mexico Mexico, and then the second Esposito Mackie fight and the junk Yard.
So okay, all right, so of those, how do you feel those that fight, in particular much more grounded fight a lot of practical stuff. You know, it's it's it's good to punch. And because this segment is normally titled fake Things on fake Things, we're just watching effectively an animated movie. At some point in some of these sequences, how do you feel they looked? This is the controversy
of Marvel pushes. It's, you know, cg artists too hard, too fast, to do too much, and they don't know what they're making before the movie, before they know what the movie is, and all kinds of complaints. How did this look to you?
Some of the it was weird, some of the CGI looked very poor to me, and some of it looked outstanding. I think I'm not smart enough to know what you need to do. I know that you shouldn't put robots in the sunlight. That there's a reason that when you can do that, that's a credible because things immediately look fake in the sunlight. But there was a lot of
stuff like the flying I thought was really strong. I thought Red Hulk for I kept kind of giggling about Red Hulk, but he looked pretty good for what he is. I thought, I'm not always but a lot of the stuff looked really good, but then other times things looked bad. And there was also you could tell that so much of this movie, or a lot of this movie was
made in post. There were even some like even some of the things when he's talking up at Red Hulk trying to talk him down, is clearly a green screen, and it's kind of like, what are we doing here? You can make me believe that that car was cut in half by a magical wing and you can't do this over the shoulders shot and one of those brings me out of it.
So even with the car, I mean, they only gave us half the car, Like, there's a way to shoot that differently to make that look much cooler. When I saw that that was gonna happen in the trailer, I was all excited about it, and it was like I got half of what I wanted to see from that. Your first question, Pete, I want to kind of answer,
which is what is the signature fight? I think, fortunately or unfortunately, it has to be the cherry blossom fight at the end, just because that's going to be sort of the most memorable piece with the Red Hulk, but I don't think it's the best by any means, and I agree with Tommy. I don't think it looks good
particularly good either. I would maybe argue that either the junk Yard fight or the flying scenes at Celestial Island are the best looking, but I don't know that they're incredibly memorable unfortunately.
I think the Mexico City fight at the beginning is a great way to open it, and it works for me. That's a scene I'm going to.
Choreography matters, right, yeah, yeah, And that's the more CG you get the last year thinking about that. Where you should I think there should still be like a normal fight master who choreographs the big CGI fights because the reason Mexico rules is because they're doing hand to hand. But then he's whipping his wings out to use those as extual weapons, but the wings disappear, so somebody thought it's an inventive.
It's neat.
It's not just the cherry h what is cherry bossom lane? That fight is just like a kid with action figures.
There's like again, yeah, well, and by the same token, the fight at Celestial Island. You know, I could have given you a hundred bucks on somebody saying you sunk my battleship, Like it looked like a fake like board game in many sequences, even though the actual in air stuff I thought was really cool. Like I like the idea. I love the idea now that there are two heroes with mechanical wings that fly, I like that a lot. I need more winged things.
I like that. Except when they decided to go on a road trip. I didn't realize they just like fly fly. I was like, wait, weren't they the jeep, Like you're.
Going on a secret message and neither of us bring our equipment at all?
Right, very strange.
I had one question from the trailer, because you know that they I mean, they hid the fact that Tim Blake Nelson and The Leader were going to be in there weren't in any trailers of that. And I wanted to suggest that would the movie have made less money or would there be less interest in the movie if they had actually hid Red Hulk and promoed The Leader instead, because I think I actually think the response would have
been greater if they had done that. You don't really need to see Red Hulk in the trailers to get people to this movie. But I think there's an argument to be made either way. But I think I think it would have been such a better reveal the whole story if we did not know Red Hulk was going to be in this movie and then oh, all of a sudden, unless except for all of those people who know it from the comics, you know this kind of thing.
I think that would have been much greater and had a much greater impact if we did it that way.
I completely agree. I think there's just such a energy and everything suck from Tim Blake Nelson, who again I love that that character and the way he looked is just ridiculous and he's just talking.
He did answer the question by bringing him back why they haven't used him in seventeen years, right right, like this time will be answered the question for me about why we didn't get a more contemporaneous play on the heater after the incredible Hulk, Right, Mike.
I would say the way they bring him back also like creates a huge flaw in the film. It is interesting, especially in this day and age, just say, what if you can't trust your president unless you want to escape that thought? But and I think I'm getting older and grouch here because more and more I'm agreeing with villains and things I'm reading and watching. Because Tim Blake Nelson was tortured and lied to for seventeen years. What were
his crimes from The Incredible Hulk? He had an accident, he was there, he was wrong time, wrong place, had an accident, but the a global leader used him for his benefit to but he's like, I don't want to be remembered as the warmonger. It's like, no, you're more like warmonger plus like grab type stuff, like you're you're even more disgusting than we actually thought you were in the movie doesn't really deal with any of that.
Instead, Mackie at the end is like, hey man, your daughter could still love you. Yeah, that is a really really good point. Uh, And I I just don't. I mean, we'll we'll talk about the post credit later. But I'm I'm I'm very curious if they're gonna if we're gonna see Tim Blake Nelson again after this movie.
I mean, well, I don't want to say that, like I don't like him, because again I really like him, but he was really like him that the character was underutilized. I mean, it was really just a vehicle to Yeah. So yeah, I hope they don't use him again in that way. I guess that's what I'm saying.
Fun to see Carl Lumley black back half of the TV show. I think he's fantastic. He did great. We've talked about gen Carlos Bosito, wonderful. Let's talk just briefly about Shira has as our new a new Widow. I don't have any comic background on the character that she is playing. What do we need to know?
It's Sabra is like a e tier mutant who came from Masad. So I think both for real world ramifications and for ease of how many different secret organizations there are in the SCU. They're like, she's just a widow, like and they'd be simple of so why use her at all? Like there's those little things that like that's for like the super comic nerds. I did not know this character, like this is definitely me looking stuff up. Uh, so you get to and maybe maybe this actress can
really act. I saw no evidence of that.
In this film.
I struggled with it because I never really found her physically believable in the way that I do our other widows in the universe. Uh, and I think I think she's She's done a lot of good work, and she's a talented performer. I wonder if she was miscast for this role, and maybe they were going for look at what we can do with someone at this diminutive physical frame. And I just never let myself go that I thought they were beating up at someone who they shouldn't be
beating up. I just felt sorry for her all the time.
I was never felt that she was a threat at all.
Yeah.
I never felt like she was a threat, not in the way Scarlett Johansson or or in character wise.
It was muddy because we had I think her Sasha Sasha Rockmore, who plays Taylor, who is like Sam's in Like, so we have these two female security agents to like if we're if things are money streamline, but one character is fine.
I don't know why you need both of them to exist.
Yeah, yeah, good point.
The score.
Well, as we're kind of getting toward the end, I want to shout out the score. Laura Cartman did the score? Score? Uh, the score is not full of to for me anyway. Any real memorable themes that are new and novel for this character. I loved that we got the Mister Blue theme from the Incredible Hulk score for The Leader. It snuck in there, and I thought that was a really nice musical homage to that other movie.
I thought it was soupy is the best word like it was a lot of times it's like it was just left on like that scene but they forgot to change the music cue and it just sort of goes halfway into the next scene. A lot of times it was not it didn't seem related to what was going on, unfortunately, but it was. It was quiet but so full. There was like every instrument was playing, but it's so low in the mix that it's just like, who is this for? It's like leaving your TV on your dog?
And if if we're gonna harken back to older mc U and reference like songs, not score but in Winter Soldier, isn't it Sam recommends, I think it's Sugarman like Phil, fill this with seventies.
Funk, then make this cool with that guy.
Yea similar to Guard is a Galaxy, but a very different vibe. And because we've shown in the past that Sam is a guy who's into music and older music, so fill.
This with that, make it unique, give it, make it his movie. That would be a great idea.
That we do.
Get a Kendrick Hendrick song over the closing credits, we get I I'm absolutely with you, this is you know, this is a generic action score, and I missed having strong character themes in the score. That was problematic. Cinematography Kramer, Morgan Thal Kramer, Morgan tho, we're gonna be talking about more on Marvel Movie Minute next season. Kramer did for
the Dark World. That's right, We're doing for the Dark World in Marvel Movie Minute, but also Creed three, the Creed movies and Chef Favreau's Chef, which I love very very much and so like you know, Steve's word. This is a strong competent cinematographer and my hunches. A lot of the work got muddied in as the movie was created in the edit.
How did you like that wrap around after the Mexico fight of the two guys having a conversation for absolutely no person a purpose at all. I mean, normally when I talk camera, I like to talk about my favorite shot of the film, but this was so glaringly like, let's just spin around two guys that are talking to each other like, oh that I mean, but why though? I mean, that's all I was saying every time a shot came up.
In this movie. I think they ran out of time in the schedule because they had to shoot every scene with talking both at the actors and then from behind them so they could switch out all the words. Right, there was a lot of behind the back talking when the sound town's just a little bit different.
Oh well, yeah, yeah, that was rough.
I was feeling like I was channeling your adr rage, tom.
It felt a lot of times it felt like it was shot like a TV show. I don't know, just like there was not a lot of time to set up stuff or take time to think about. Again, to Tommy's point about the editing, if you're gonna just you guys fight, I'm gonna put cameras in a couple of places. We'll figure it out an editing instead of working with the choreographer, How do I tell the story of the fight.
And I don't know whose fault that is.
If that's the director should be learning that language, if it's the cinematographer of knowing how to shoot this to give the editor that footage, But it. Yeah, just felt like so many scenes were just like quick and dirty. We got to shoot this, we got to move this thing along very quickly. We're not taking time to think about the visual language of what that's going to communicate. Because I also I felt like there was so much telling not showing in this movie. We just got information.
We're going to show you this. There's so much talking. We just got to get this, you know, story moved along for whatever reason.
We talked a lot about that concept on Mandy's show on The Make Me a Nerd Show when we talked about the MCU, that in the MCU as a whole, with all of their properties, it gets kind of muddy the TV style versus the movie style, because we get some TV series on Disney Plus that feel very cinematic and have a very high level of CGI attention in these kind of things, and then it devolves at times
in weird places. In certain films and in certain series, it's really scattered in terms of the quality of what is cinematic and what is TV related. So I agree with you, I think this one definitely fill more on the TV side, and that's not ideal. When we're talking about the film.
Which is so interesting when you look at something like She Hulk, which is a show that whose principal character spends most of their time in CGI mode and for the most part looked great. Right that it got lost in that property, it was wonderful.
It's just interesting.
I love to hear it.
Yeah, yeah, we're on that side.
I'm going to go away and cue some music and immediately come back reading a new bit in a slightly more gravelly voice. Cue the music. In a world divided by opinions, where movie lovers seek refuge from the chaos of bad takes and endless reboots, one community stands as a beacon of hope, the True Story FM Discord. It's a gathering place for those who believe in the power of film, where conversations soar higher than a leaping octagenarian Harrison Ford. And the best part, you can join for free.
Just head to the True Story dot fm slash discord login page and clean your place among fellow cinephiles. And for those who want to go beyond those who can hear the call to do more, there is another path. Become a supporting member of the Next Reel's family of film podcasts at true story dot fm slash join as a member, you'll unlock exclusive Discord channels, members only, live streams,
early access to extended episodes in your very own podcast feed. Today, for example, we're taking apart the post credits scene of this movie in a post credit post credit conversation.
The choice is your soldier.
Will you stand on the sidelines or will you step up and be a part of something bigger? The next real needs heroes like you.
Who was that guy?
Wow o? My is that the Japanese?
Who?
Now is a point. Now that we have have churned the film through our conversational meat grinder, we have to rate it and we do that over on letterbox. You can find true story FM's HQ page at letterbox dot com. Slash the next reel and this is this is where we make our case for the movie and where it stands in our ranking. Five stars and you can add a heart half stars count JJ I.
Gave it three stars just because I was entertained. I definitely wouldn't fight for the quality of this film or try to argue that it's logical or special. But in a world of Marvel movies that have been generally disappointing, for me post endgame. I had fun with this and it made me excited for the future. So I gave it three stars out of five and a heart and a heart oh thank you? Yes, Okay, I liked it.
Kindred Spirits all right, Steve, I you know, well, I gave this three stars, and because I did enjoy it, and as I said, if if I become a twelve year old boy, I think there's a lot to enjoy. I have to take aside every other movie I've seen, so I can't say, oh, that witty rep oartee between Falcon and you know, Bucky, you know, and I want to hold that up against George Cleaning Brad Pitt and Ocean's Eleven.
You know, Oh, do you think I rushed it? You know type of thing.
I it's there in my head.
I have to take that aside and say, oh, okay, twelve year old that hasn't seen Ocean's Eleven doesn't know this doesn't have that as a comparison.
Okay, three stars.
I wish I could give it half a heart because I feel like this movie doesn't put its heart into it, so I'm not giving to the heart. I'm surprised to say that, but I just felt this was empty and I don't think the movie cared about itself enough.
So three stars, no heart. Okay, Mike, what do you think?
I so badly wanted this to succeed, and the whole time I was like, I could be watching Nickel Boys right now, I could be watching The Brutalist, Like real films came out and I'm in the middle of the day alone watching this. I think, uh, I had issues with it, but I think Falcon Wino Soldier the TV show, handled all of this so much better and is a more interesting to watch and had bigger capital T thoughts
behind it and more care. Like you said, Steve that this felt like, well we got to do it, and JJ like you've been saying, like we gotta tie things together. Who cares if it's a movie. So I'm gonna give two stars.
Ooh nice? Okay, where do you stand on the heart? None? No heart from me? If they give heart, I'd give heart.
That's good.
That's a good measure right there.
Yeah, that's good, Thomas.
I'll sort of come right in the middle. I'm going to say two point five stars. It doesn't work for me. There were some great sequences I'm not going to give it a heart, but I am going to send the heart to the director, who now after learning that the entire g and Carlo Esperanza, I don't know his name by apology exposito was added later. I feel terrible for him.
I can't imagine what a rough movie this was, and it has Harrison form legendarily difficult to work with, and so this just seems like it was probably to go from the Cloverfield Paradox which I saw, to this. I bet it was a living nightmare. So I give instead of the movie. I do not blame him, I blame the machine.
Have you seen any of Harrison Ford's pressers on this movie? No, they thought anybody.
At one point he was like, I didn't even try to act to this one pretty much.
They did say, what did you think the first time you saw you know, your face on Red Hulk that he said, it's ridiculous, and then it stops talking, which is, yeah, I'm I am. Actually I think I am buoyed by JJ's effortless optimism, and I'm right there with him. I'm actually giving it a heart and three stars, which is more than this movie deserves. And I need you to know. I know that I do too, but I want I want more of this Captain America. I want Anthony Mackie
to become an anchor in that whatever comes next. I like him, I like his work. I like the character a lot. It baffles me having a Captain America with the shield and wings, Like, isn't that a little bit of a hat on a hat? And we're all okay with it, but it's still fun, Like it's really really fun, and I want to see it when he can really take some material and work with it, because he's been in movies where he's been allowed to do that, and
they were other Captain America movies. So let's have more of that. And so I'm going to this is I'm investing in the future with this three stars and a heart. That's it. This is an investment. It's like bitcoin, but more valuable and real. Right, So that's where we are. Thank you guys for hanging out and talking about this movie. Thank you everybody for hangout listening. Thank you Mike for joining us first time. I hope, I hope we haven't sullied our relationship. I hope you'll come back.
I don't have the movie against you guys. Thank you, happy to be here, so much fun, Thank you so much love talking to these even movies.
I didn't love watching there you excellent.
I think, well we appreciated here movies.
I didn't love watching for the next film the podcast movies.
I didn't love watching the episode one the Fightest Hours like she did.
Steeve, JJ, Tommy, Mike, Thank you all, and thank you dear listener for your time and attention. Whether you agreed or disagree, or just came here to shout at your phones, we appreciate you. If you had fun, don't forget to join the conversation on the discord channel true Story dot FM, slash Discord and you know we're in the last couple of minutes. We haven't gone wear true Story FM Slash join to become a member and support this show and all of the shows in the next real family of
film podcasts. Whatever you do now, watch more movies, don't let them get you angry, and remember just because it has a post credit scene doesn't mean it's any good meeting.
How jer