On the Run

but I'm excited about this one. Well come in the beginning of another addition of the Fifth Hour, because four hours a night on the overnight or not enough? Not enough. We do this eight days a week. This is the Friday Podcast. We attempt every week to scour the sporting world to talk to people that we're interested in, or people we like, our old radio friends, people all on

those lines. Occasionally we even have listeners. On last week, j Scooped, the famous p one from Seattle, was on our show talking about the song that he and Just Josh put together for our overnight show. So we're excited about that. We are joined yet again by David Gascon from West of the four oh five, who's getting the full He's getting the full fifth hour experience this weekend, because we'll talk more about Gascon's rather marginal performance marginal

as a producer on the show this week. But you're you're near not living my life, Gascon, having to do the overnight show and then come right back and have a little podcast fun in the salt mine here. Yeah, I race home, try to sleep for a few hours, wake up trying to cook something, and then speed my ass into heavy traffic back to the studio. But welcome to my world. I'm I'm excited for this one too, especially because we do so much in the gaming world.

Uh not necessary, you know, with one particular sport, but I'm always fascinated with the way that things have gone. We were talking about bullshit calls, bad calls. I mean, you know the infamous call in the NFC Championship game with the Rams a few years ago, Um a blow. Well, I was a great call in the NFC Championship game.

Let me stop you right there. But you're referring if you haven't if you've cheated, or if you haven't cheated and looked at the headline on the on the podcast we are chatting, we're gonna have here in a couple of minutes, Tim Donnighy is gonna join us. He is one of the more infamous figures in American sport UH and the NBA fish. If you don't know his story, I'll give you the truncated version here. So he was a referee from the mid nineties to two thousand seven.

The reason he stopped being a referee is because the FBI opened an investigation that they were investigating sports wagering. The mob was entire it was involved in this. Uh. Tim Donnie was betting on NBA games and he was officiating those NBA games, and it was a huge scandal, although the NBA for the most part, was able to sweep it under the rug. It's a fascinating crisis management story with David Sarn's NBA, the late commissioner, and they will talk to him about this, but they said he

was the lone wolf. He was the only one doing it, when there's anecdotal evidence that there were plenty of referees that we're doing. Maybe not the exact same thing Tim Donnie did, but similar activity there in those days and it all just kind of went away in the NBA media said, Okay, you know, they said, this happened, that's all that happened. That's it, no more investigation and uh, and we just moved on. It was wild. Well, it's the extentire right because you always say the the NFL

network is tied to the NFL. It's state sponsored media media. It's fascinating to me. I was thinking about this with having Tim on is if you thought that maybe in a situation with Tim, we're we're teams where obviously knew something was going on but they didn't do anything about it. Do you think the NBA would have been susceptible to

a class action lawsuit from gamblers because of wages loss? Well, as I remember, I think there were some lawsuits that were filed by season ticket holders that claimed that if I remember correctly, right, yeah, like because they bought tickets, it was a bad faith. Agree. You know, the NBA had said that the integrity is you know, the game,

and there was no integrity and all that. But as far as the cover up, the greatest quote all time from someone in sports media that I I wrote it down and I still remember to this day because it was so good. When Peyton Manning was involved in a steroid scandal, there was a documentary that outered him as a steroid cheat, and the NFL media were fighting with each other to bury the story. But Keishan Johnson, who was at ESB, I guess he's back at ESPN now, but he had one of the great quotes of all

time to to cover up and protect the almighty. Keish On said of regarding Peyton Manning, he said, he didn't do it. If he said he didn't do it, it didn't happen, then it didn't happen. He didn't do it. That's it. And Jim Nance on CBS said, it's a non story on all levels, or all on all levels, it's a non story something like that, And of course, you know many people believe it was not a non story. It was absolutely true. The Al Jazer reporting about Peyton

Manning and the clinic in Indianapolis. That was a great doc I remember that specifically because I went on a trip to Europe on vacation and you had texted me the link to that story, and I watched the entire documentary on a train ride. I was I was really fuck It was riveting. And you know, I still I am still in contact with a couple of people who made that documentary for Al Jazeera, and there's lawsuits we've

we've wanted to get them on the podcast. I I love that documentary so much and it just got completely buried by the sporting world. Although that documentary, which everyone said was you know, bogus and was no credibility. The catcher for the Chicago Cubs to Tea Garden I think was his name, something like that, Taylor Tea Garden, I

think that was the name. But anyway, he uh, he ended up getting suspended by Major League Baseball for performance adinancing drugs mostly based on that that documentary, So there was credibility. And once the there's a lawsuit involving Ryan Howard and Ryan Zimmermane and once that is officially settled, We're gonna get one of these people, one of the people I've been communicating with from Al Jazeero on the podcast. But this about Tim Dottie, David Gascon, Tim Donnie, the

NBA referee, someone I'm excited. Actually a listener recommended this, a p one said, hey should get Tim Donnie and I said, well, that's a great idea. And I said, why didn't I think of that. I mean, this is a guy who I've watched these documentaries, I've read books, I've read plenty of stories online about his situation. It's fascinating. They've made a movie about his story. But let's welcome in now. Former NB I guess you had to say

disgraced NBA referee to tell the story properly. All right, So, Tim, I've been looking forward to talking to you. I am fascinating. I've watched the documentaries about your story. I've read you wrote a book, I've read a bunch of stories online and all that. What is the question, though, Tim, as we welcome to the podcast here, what is the question that you get asked most about your story? Pretty much?

They want to know if I fixed games? And uh, I think that's the biggest misconception out there, that I went out there and put star players to the bench, that a lot of these bets would win. And and I always revert back to the fact that Phil Scallett, who was the supervisory special agent on my case, wrote the board for my book and said that I told the truth at every turn, and and in the book, I said that I didn't fix schemes. The NBA said I didn't fix schemes, and in fact, the FBI came

out inside I didn't fix schemes. So I thinks a lot of things that come out from time to time about me fixing games, and it just didn't happen. The thing about your story, there's a lot of it that I'm fascinated by. I covered the NBA when you were an official, and I remember, you know, seeing you randomly at games over the years there, and I know you don't officials as you know, being a referee. You know, there's some guys that stayed out, other guys that don't

stayed out. But the NBA, the efforts they went to sweep this under the rug. But you were the only guy, uh, and they just wanted to make this all disappear. Uh. Were you the only guy involved in this kind of stuff?

Definitely not, because there was a lot of other referees that the FBI actually wanted to indict because they were going into these games with a preconceived agenda of what they were going to do, and they were discussing that with uh, you know me, And that's why I was able to pick these games correctly at seventy percent at a time. Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show weekdays at two a m. Eastern eleven

pm Pacific. Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Meller Show weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio app. It's it's fascinating and we hear this catch phrase all the time, you know, integrity of the game, and every sports league says it. They all use that phrase when something happens. Do you think there's actually integrity in the game that this phrase that gets thrown around so often. I think that they like the fans. I think that

there's a lot of integrity into the game. I think now, uh, after my situation, I think that they're doing more to make sure there's integrity into the game and trying to keep these personal relationships that exist between officials and players and coaches out of it. I think this last week we just sold in the NHL. There was obviously an official that they fired on the spot because he was saying that he was going to do things to one of the NHL teams and um, you know, whether that

call was correct or incorrect. He talked about it and it was something that he set out to do. So I think there's, especially with a lot of the veteran officials and the professional sports, Uh, there's relationships that exist, both positive and negative, and it's they spell out onto

the floor. So you're the perfect guy to ask you to the makeup call, which as a basketball fan you watch these games are like, well, of course there's makeup calls, but people around the NBA often will say, well, that doesn't happen, that doesn't exist. Is there a makeup call? To explain the makeup call when you're calling a game in the NBA. Absolutely, there's a makeup call. When you make a call again somebody that uh you know, you

may think, uh, you know, wasn't that good of a call? Uh, And somebody comes over to you and you discuss it with them, and they say, you know, yellow me one. You know, obviously you feel bad that you made a poor call against them, and you want to make sure when you get down the other end, Uh, do you give them the benefit of the doubt or you'll give them a cheap foul back that gets them to the line.

So yes, there's definitely makeup calls. What went down when you found out this whole You know, you were gambling on NBA games and when you when the FBI started snooping around? Who did somebody tip you off? How did you find out? I know you've talked about this occasionally, but for those that don't know your story, maybe forgot, like how did this all go down? Because you were doing this for a couple of years at least and

then everything hit the fan. Yeah, it was actually at the end of the year in two thousand and seven. I was just getting ready to play around the golf and Tommy Martino called me, who was one of the uh CO conspirators on the case, and told me that the FBI had been to his house that day and had been to his house, Uh, you know three or four times prior to that, and uh, you know that they were snooping around asking questions about what we have

been doing. And I've been given him information that he had been passed along to uh Jane Fatista, who was associated with the game being No Crime family, and that uh, you know, it seemed like we're going to be in a lot of trouble and then what did you do after that? Did you contact an attorney immediately or did you like I did, I basically hit a major panic button. Uh, you know, went home, contacted an attorney that I knew that lived two streets over from me, and we basically

got together and discussed uh what I had known. And we went in his office the next day and he called the United States attorney who was working in the case and basically had me on speaker phone, and the guy said, uh, you know, you tell Tim Donkey. We know what he did, we know who he did it with. Uh, he's better off coming to us rather than us coming to get him, because if we have to come get him, he's going to go to jail for a long long time. So I think within like twenty four hours, I was

on a plane to New York meeting with them. Wow. And then as far as the NBA part of it, we know that the late David start of the time really made a big point if you were alone, Wolf, if you were the only guy that did this. But what kind of interaction did you have after that with NBA officials? Really? Nothing. When John Laura was a former federal prosecutor, was one of my attorneys. He called up the NBA office and said that we'd like to come in and sit down with them and uh, you know,

show them what we did and how we did it. Uh. They never took us up on the opportunity. They said they would give us a call back, and uh they never did. In the Uh wait, David Stern handled it and just continuing to bury me in the press and claiming that I was the one bad apple on the whole staff and nobody else had anything to do with it. Uh. There was just something that really rubbed not owing me,

but my attorneys and the FBI agents the wrong way. So, I mean, you obviously think you were the fall guy right that you were there, they were going to use you as the scapegoat, even though other guys were doing similar things. Correct, no doubt. I mean I definitely did something wrong. I don't want people to think that, you know, I I uh, you know, got in trouble for something I didn't do. I definitely was doing something I shouldn't

have been doing. Uh. And but there was other people that you know, really gave me this information that I years that was able to uh, you know, like I said earlier, make these bets correctly sevent of a time. You know another thing, Tim about you know, your story and being a referee all those years before. Obviously this this whole thing popped up the the superstar call. Can you can you walk me through this? Tim, Like, there's this there's a different set of rules for the headliners

in the NBA. It's been this way. It's seemingly watching the NBA for for a million years. But you were right in the middle there the arena. So what guidelines do they give you guys as referees or did they give you back in those days when it comes to a different set of rules for the superstars, it's definitely the veteran referees that really sit you down and uh, you know, show you how to survive in the league

as a young referee. And I never forget Jess Kersey, who was a veteran referee one time said, you know, when Michael Jordan goes to the hole and there's a crab, if he, you know, misses a shot, just blow the whistle and give the foul to somebody, because he didn't

miss that shot on his own. And uh, you know, there was a lot of different scenarios where if a star player fouled somebody and it was his third or fourth foul, and you could give that foul to somebody else instead of giving it to that star player, you were told to give it to that other mediocre player because people didn't play thousands of dollars to six courtside

to see these star players on the bench. So there was a different set of rules for the star players that helped them, uh you know, become those stars that they are and stay at that level. Uh, that you were supposed to do as a referee to continue to help them. Tim based on your experience and where you've been and what you've seen, um ben, it brought a

little bit this up earlier. But do you think or do you get a sense that there's any kind of overlap between what what happened in the NBA with you guys back then too, maybe the National Football League or college football or college basketball. Uh you know, I think that at every level, Uh you know, there's uh you know, relationships that exist both positive and negative that's spill out onto the playing with the with the officials and the

and the coaches and the players. So you know, I think at every level people are getting the benefit of calls based on relationships are kind of getting it stuck to them based on prior situations where you know, a referee wants to stick it to somebody. So I think there's a lot of situations that take place, uh you know, between the referees and playing participants. Uh that both positive and negative, that that affect the games based on where

we're at now. I know it's easy to play catch twenty two, but um, you know where we're at social media wise, in the way that things are looked under a microscope. Do you think you'd have the balls to do something like you did then now in today's world? Definitely not. I'd like to think that if I ever had a second chance, or I could go back in time, I wouldn't do it. Uh you know, I had a great job, big and great money uh cost me everything

that costs me my family, my job, my freedom. So you know, I'd like to think that, uh you know, I wouldn't do what I had done in the past. But uh, you know it's it's something that you know, we don't know. You can't turn back time. Well, speaking of that, relationship wise, family wise, what's that like for you and now in today's world, is there any kind of connection with you and family anything in that nature? Uh, you know, definitely. I mean I have poor daughters and

they all lived with me. Now, I think the best thing that happened through the whole scandal was that I was I got divorced, So that was one positive thing that happened from the whole thing. But other than that,

there really wasn't anything positive from it. It's interesting, um, with where we're at in today's world, with all these sports leagues you're getting in bed with, you know, MGMs of the world and balis and companies like that, do you suspect or do you think that maybe not officials, but do you think athletes one day will fall prey to gambling debts and things of that nature. Yeah, I think definitely they'll uh fall prey to gambling guts because

there's so much gambling that goes on. You read about how much gambling goes on on the planes, uh you know, to and from games or uh you know how much gambling goes on, uh you know these card games behind the scenes and the amount of money that's bet. So definitely I think they'll fall prey to major, major gambling debts.

But you don't think that they would ever uh, you know, be in a position where they would do something on the court because of the amount of money that they make, uh, you know in their job, that they would ever jeopardize that. What's the most you've ever waged on the event? Uh? There were times for I wagered five thousand dollars from the golf course, or there were times for I waged five thousand dollars on a sporting event. Uh, you know,

whether it was a college football or an NBA game. Wow. Interesting, Hey, Uh, Tim to follow up on what Gascon said there, and the NBA and all these sports leagues have embraced gambling. There's a lot of money. It's like a gold rush now in gambling advertising. It's becoming legal across the country in different states, and eventually, I think pretty much everywhere outside the Bible Belt it's gonna be gonna be legal.

How do you look at this? Can say, obviously you you admitted you did something wrong there, But the NBA had always been anti gambling, anti gambling. Now they've totally wrapped their arms around gambling. How do you look at that considering your situation? Well, I think it's gonna come down to the revenue and how much revenue that they see,

UH that's projecting to go into their pockets. And when you talk about having twenty thousand people on these stadiums and the interactive betting that you're going to be able to do maybe sitting courtside and being able to place bets not even leaving your courtside seat. I think something that's going to generate an enormous amount of revenue for the leagu's moving forward, and I think they're going to

take advantage of it. I also want to ask you about the just the meat and potatoes of officiating and watching the NFL over the Yearston We've always heard in watching the game, you can call holding on every play. As an NBA official, there's contact on almost every play in the NBA. Could you call a penalty and it wouldn't even be a wrong call, But could you call a penalty on every play based on the physical contact in an NBA game? You could because they want the

physicality out of the game. They want a freak flowing, high scoring game, and they always seem to be adjusting the rules so that that continues to take place. That they have high scoring games, so any kind of really bump, hold, or or push, you could really blow the whistle at any any time. But as a referee, uh, you know, you keep yourself in trouble if you're calling those fouls

on star players to put them to the bench. They always say, if you're going to call those things, to clean up the game, to create a free flowing game. To make sure you called on players that don't matter, not for those that don't know. You were the official and two of the more famous games in recent somewhat recent NBA history, the Malice of the Palace. You were there for that, the Pacer Pistons brawl, which was an

amazing visual act. And then also Game six of the two thousand two Western Finals, that was the Laker King's game. Uh as far as the Laker Kings game, that was when the Lakers got eighteen more foul shots. What happened that night? Tim did somebody send a message down from the league off like how did that end up happening? I think that's a misconcess conception. That was Bob Delaney,

not me, who referee that game. But it was Lane there, Okay, No, I was de Laney Bernhardt and Thevetta, and that was I believe, Game six, and we all knew what Bavetta on the floor, that that was going to go to a Game seven, because he always said that he was the NBA's go to referee, that he was put on game six is make sure they went game seven's and with l A being down in the series, he was, you know, put on that game to make sure it went to a game seven, and he talked openly about

stuff like that. I mean, I just remember that series. Ben. I don't know if you do it in terms of Game seven, but Sacramental has shot less than fifty from the free throw line in Game seven at Homes. So yeah, they really had a problem that everyone thought they were going to go home in Game seven and win it, and when they didn't, they really just all they did was continue to talk about the Game six and how

screwed they got. If you were to look at this from from our perspective, because because Ben and I go at this a pretty good length with each sport. But like in the game of baseball, major League Baseball has in certain sites you can actually look at umpires to see what kind of games they're there totals, go over or go under, strike zones and things that nature. If you had to do what you did back then with any sport NBA, NHL, Major League Baseball, the NFL, college sports,

which sport would you do that with? You know? I think the easiest sport to you know, get away with stuff like that, I think would be the NFL because I think when you uh discussed earlier, you could really call holding on every play or every other play if you want it, and you could let it go on the place that you wanted to. So I think when you talk about making calls to affect games that really nobody could really pick out, I think would be in

the NFL. And Tim, I'll go back to that. You were at the mouth of the palace, right I Did I get that one? Right? Did I? Did? You did? Okay? So what I watched that on television? It was insane on television. You're in the middle of it. You're the you're the rules guy, like with the other thing, what

like what what's going on there? And and what just kind of walked me through that night and when everything went to hell and the guys are fighting in the crowd, it's about a minute ago in the game, and it was really a non eventful game. The game was over and uh, after a free throw and Wallish and I think Ron Artest kind of got into it a little bit.

And as we are reporting fouls and breaking things up, our tests went over and sat by the scores table and someone on the stands through a full cup of beer on him and he just got up and and be line right for the fan and got ahold of him. And the players were up in the in the stands fighting with the fans, and then Dans came onto the floor and they started fighting on the floor. So it was just a situation where every time we thought it was going to calm down and stopped, it got worse.

And uh, you know, it was at the point where we couldn't play the game the final minute of the game and we just called the game. Did you catch a haymaker at all? No? Thank god, because he know I had problems with Rashid Wallace in the past, and and I had my one eye on him at the whole the whole time, because I thought maybe he'd tried to swing at somebody else and think he was swinging somebody else and clocked me so I kept my distance from him the whole time. Did you did you Did

that relationship stem from when he was in Portland? It did. It was a problem in Portland where you know, he didn't like uh technical foul. I gave him way to form me out in the parking line. Actually wanted to fight me, and and about ten people held them back, thank god, or I probably would killed me. How many other guys did you have a beef with? Are the other guys that stand out that? There were players that just didn't He didn't get along with them. They didn't

like you, You You didn't like them. Uh, you know Chauncey Billups, it was a tough guy to get along with. Uh for me, just him and really Rashid Wallace was difficult to get along with. Are you Are you still friends with any of these people in the NBA? I mean you worked there a long time. There's some of those guys are still around? You still talk to those guys? I did? I actually just spoke the Bondsi Wells and Rushi wall It's not too long ago. I did their

podcast and UH had a great conversation with them. Uh. I do from time to time email A couple of different owners that I think in contact with, and uh, you know, other than that, there's not too many people that I know I've been in contact with recently. I got you and you actually have a website for those that don't know, and it's it's rep Picks. Explain this to me to walk me through what this is all about here, No. Rep picks dot com is a website where I have a bunch of sports handy trappers that

work for me. We guide people through the sports gambling industry and hopefully at the end of the week you're collecting from your booky rather than paying your bookie in And also we kind of vent people out to make sure they're not getting themselves in too much trouble gambling and kind of guide them in the right direction. Are you still betting on games them? Are you still occasionally now? I'm not betting on games my up because it was a difficult line that I kept crossing and got me

in a lot of trouble. So I kind of stay away from, uh, you know, betting on the games myself. I just kind of die people in the right direction. I got you, hey, Tim, thanks for swiming some time with us. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Miller Show weekdays at two am eastern eleven pm Pacific. Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Meller Show weekdays at two am eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the I Heart Radio app