Happy Valley Plot Twist?

hours a night are not enough. On the overnight, we do this eight days a week, and you know the drill. On Fridays in the Magic Podcast Studio and a secret location somewhere in the north Woods, we like to have a conversation on the Fifth Hour and bring people in who are interesting, fascinating, rivet ng And we have one of those type figures today. We welcome in a man who is a social media foot soldier. He's a political columnist.

He is an old talk show host. I first heard this particular person back in the day at KFI in l A as a talk show hosted a talk show at night, and I said this guy is good. I like this guy. I like his passion, his enthusiasm, the way he approaches talk radio. I really enjoyed that. And he moved on and he has done a bunch of documentaries and written political columns. So let's welcome in now,

John Ziegler. He's noticed the Penn State guy. We are going to get to that, John, the Penn State stuff, but let's start with you and the fact that you originally got into the media business as a sports guy and then you made the quantum leap who firebrand political pundit. How did that happen? Well, Um, I've done a lot of things in a very mediocre fashion in my media career.

I began as a TV sportscaster. My first on air job was in Steubenville, Ohio, Wheeling, West Virginia, back in the early nineties at w t o v TV, the NBC affiliate, where I was a sports anchor reporter. And then I went and did that at the Fox affiliate in Raleigh, North Carolina, and Um, I realized a couple

of things. That one that my rather controversial, outspoken nature was not really suited for network sportscasting, so I went into talk radio and that's what eventually led me to here in Los Angeles and the KFI, which at the time was the number one talk station in the country. And then after that, UM, I started get into documentary films and more I guess you would call an investigative journe realism and commentary and column writing and and so

that's where I am today. So I've done a lot of different things, um, none of which in a particularly spectacular fashion, but it's been interesting. Well, I enjoyed. John. You've been very outspoken about the zeitgeist of the times, with you know, doing sports radio. We had no sports last year, everything was shut down. Sports are back, but everything's been politicized and and all that. And you've been very outspoken about all the ridiculous UM rules and regulations

and and is is there any end of this? I mean, you've you've been ranting day after day about it, John, Is there an end of the madness? Well, I have to say, and someone needs to tell this story. I've actually tried to tell this story, and I've been yet been successful in doing so in a documentary form. But I believe that sports played an intricral role, intricral in what happened with our reaction to COVID, and it was all negative, and it was all based on panic and stupidity.

And we're not getting too deeply into it. This this might shock you. I don't know how much you've thought about this, but I actually think that one of the biggest decisions in the entire reaction of the pandemic, the one that set off a remarkable domino effect from which we may never recover, was when the IVY League decided to cancel their basketball tournament in March of Until that happened,

we were still in the rational world. But within twenty four two, two thirty six hours after that, the entire world changed, and it changed not based on science, not based on logic, based on the idea wall. The smart guys of the IVY League decided that they couldn't even have their tournament forget about this, you know, not having fans,

they couldn't even play the tournament. Uh, then we have to do the same, and including golf, which as a golfer, I will always be totally offended by how golf handled this thing. Golf should have been a leader in showing us that we can survive this, because it was perfectly

designed to do so. But because golf is seen as a white male, conservative sport at the time tied to Donald Trump, it was very politicized and they were terrified that they would get destroyed if they were the only sports still standing, so they came like everybody else, even though to this day not one golfer has ever even gotten sick from COVID and UH and you know, as an outdoor sport with inherent social distancing, there was no

reason why golf should not have maintain itself. And frankly, I think the most recent you know data would act what we've seen with college football this year. I think the entire notion that outdoor crowds are a threat is a complete myth, and golf, especially being as outdoors that can get I don't think could have should have even at any limitations on it self based upon COVID, and I don't think anybody would have ever been endangered by that.

So sports played an incredibly important role and how we got here, and also in why it's we've been so slow to get out of this because the woke sports media and I don't understand this at all, and I the only thing that makes any sense to me is that it was all seen as in an election year, as as a way to get it Donald Trump. But the woke sports media went all in, all in on this, and you know, frankly, sports fans ought to be furious

at the sports media. You know, these commercials and ESPN runs, well they say welcome back to college football, and they celebrate the fan. What a what a load of crap? That is ESPN openly campaigned for a over a year for you not to be allowed to go see us a sports event. And how they're gonna I mean so, um, I really do believe that sports played an incredibly erosive

role here. And as far as how we get out of this, the reaction to Aaron Aaron Rodgers, We're never getting out of this, I mean, this thing is business forever in some realms. I mean, college football seems to be about the only place that it has mostly emerged from this. And um, and that's again it's it's largely before political reasons. It's only in the Deep South that politically,

you know, these institutions are able to do this. And what's really shocking and usibly my last point before right shut up, I honestly thought that when you know, a good number of sports teams started to get back to normal, and they did so without incident that everyone else would follow.

But that really hasn't been the case because, I guess because we're now living in a world where you have to signal your virtue by continuing with these restrictions, and if you don't, in certain areas, you're considered to be bad people, even though it has absolutely no science. Find it well, and John, it really is. And you brought up the South and that whole thing that the Dodgers,

I was just some Dodger playoff games. They're playing the Atlanta Braves in the NLCS and and it's a totally different world in Atlanta going to a Major League Baseball game than Los Angeles. And and the Dodgers when they opened it up and they allowed people to to not wear masks, that lasted for a little while, and then you know, the politicians got involved in no, you gotta you gotta put the mass on. And of course, you know, being out there, John, it was mostly people to enter

the stadium, you had to have the mask on. And then after that people pretty much did what people do and they took the mask off. And and live their life well to that point. I actually think that that college football, especially is the ultimate proof that most people don't really believe in masks, because if they did. Let's pretend people really believe that masks worked, right, you wouldn't you would see more than a handful of me that's in a back stadium with eighty thousand people. Yeah. But

but but it's all about the politics. It's all about peer pressure. And when people are in a situation where the non maskers have control, they don't bother the mask because they feel no compulsion to do so, because they don't really believe in the science of it. They're just going along because they don't want to win yelling at them. That's what this is about and and the mask. But I am positive, I am positive that masks do nothing

to hinder the spread of COVID. Now, now I've I've I've mentioned this and I've seen some of the data you've you've been outspoken about. Explain to the person listening now, because when I've said this in the past, I've gotten some pushback. So explain. You've actually seen the same numbers you've seen, probably more numbers than I've seen that there is no correlation, right that it is pretty much for theatrics to wear the mask for the most part, for

most people. Right well, from every single angle, the mask the pro mask narrative makes no sense. First of all, before COVID, we had tons of studies on masks and the flu, which is the same type of virus as COVID is. It's not in most of the the cases, is not as bad, but it's the same. It's talking about the same animal. Here there are There were about a dozen studies Donne in the previous decade about masks and the flu. Not one of them showed any real impact

of masks. And that was before this became politicized. This is why Dr Fauci said at the beginning of this whole thing, don't bother wearing a mask. Now he's completely lied about why he said that and what he said, and but that was the conventional wisdom before COVID. Let's under let's understand why that changed. It changed not because the science came in, not because because we suddenly had new data and here we have unprecedented amounts of data

we've never had before over the last nineteen months. It changed because liberals in this country have changed. Now I'm not talking about Asia. Asia is completely different culturally, and Asia has been misinterpreted. But in this country, the mass became popular among the left as a virtue signal against Trump and a security blanket, that's what it was. And once they become deeply invested in that, there's no going back,

deep emotional investment. And I'm a big believer, been huge believer, And I assume we're gonna get to this with regard to the Penn State case, which is a classic example of this, when when if something is true, then you must look at what you would expect to happen if that was true. And here we have this unprecedented amount of data for nineteen months. We've never done data like this ever before. So if mass actually worked, there would be O. J. Simpson level evidence of it by now

O J. Simpson. Instead, there's nothing, nothing, there's and and frankly, here in southern California we have the best example of it. If you chart the rate of spread in Los Angeles County versus Orange County, which is are obviously butted against each other sat climate, you know the same basic everything. L A is a mass capital of the of the country. Orange County currently has no mash mandate. No one's wearing

masks there. From the beginning, no one wore masks as much in Orange County as they did in l A County, caause Orange County is much less liberal. The chart is identical except for one thing. The case right in Orange County is always a little bit less than that of Los Angeles County, but it could not be more identical, which shows me that this whole thing, I actually believe what we do has very little impact over the spread of the virus. I think it's partially seasonal. I think

it's parsonal. Actually luck or bad luck. The whole notion that we have have control over a virus is a fantasy. Uh, it's the idea that man can control nature. And and frankly, so much of this is as a result of liberal insanity. And you know, I'm I'm not a Trump guy. I mean,

I'm a conservative, but I'm not a Trump guy. And I just I just think so much of this was in reaction to liberals losing their minds in an election year when Donald Trump was was president well, and John the thing too about the last year and a half, the follow the science mantra which we hear so often in and I learned when I was in school that you know, there science is just people disagreeing. So it

has totally become politicized. And you know, on both sides, people pick what they want and what they believe in, and they you can it's like doctor shopping, right, John. You find a scientist that will tell you what you want and then you just go with it. Science has become so politicized, and I find this to be a tragic, and it's so it's really a weapon. Follow the science

is a weapon of the left. It's basically shut up. Uh, you know, we we don't have the proof to back up our side, so we're just gonna rely on well all the scientists, say well, what what's the motivation of

all the scientists? And again there's a relationship to this what happened at the Penn State when when all the experts are saying one thing on a controversial topic, nobody wants to go outside of that herd because if they go outside of that herd on a big topic, we're gonna get run over because there's an incentive of the herd to not have anyone embarrassed them. And you know this is a my My grandfather was a rather well

known rocket scientist for the United States. Came over from Germany and Operation paper Clip, and his claim to fame was actually with regard to our first satellite in space. He told the Navy there was no gnass of the time he was working for the Army. He told the Navy that they were full the crap when it came to the way they were going to try to power our first satellite, and he fought like hell to put

these things called solar panels on and they laughed at him. Well, within a few hours of our first satellite turned out the Navy was wrong, he was right. And the rest is history. I mean so unpopular positions throughout it, throughout the history of science have always turned out that are not always turned out, but often turned out to be the right way to go. And group think is always very dangerous and we have seen it here. And it's

not about science. It's about politics, pure politics, not just the Democrat and Republican type of politics, but the politics of people who are within the science community. No one wants to lose their position in the cool kids table at school, that's what this is about. Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Meller Show weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio

and the Radio. Well and also, John, it seems like you're on Twitter a lot, and I'm in their affair amount It's like that has so much power now, and you mentioned the group think, and you know, everyone wants to be involved with the cool kids and all that, but the the Twitter ROTI the wocaati that all get together on on Twitter, and and the media companies. You've

been in the media business your your entire life. Here the amount of power that the algorithms have on what the news of the day is is insane and is here's another one of those questions, John, where I look at that and I've seen some of the studies about how how few people actually provide content the Twitter based on the amount of people you know, in America, for example, here we talked about, you know, many people actually contribute. There's a lot of people that are on there that

don't actually add to the conversation. But media companies, and you know, I work for you one in particular, and and the some other big ones, they just whatever Twitter says that goal with it, like that's the gospel. Is there any getting back from that? They've given so much power. I couldn't agree with you more that Twitter has extraordinarily

outsized power in driving the narrative. And you know, especially now that Trump has gone from Twitter, and I'm assuming many of his supporters are too, It's it is unbelievable. I mean, they have a stranglehold on the narrative of Twitter. And you know, media members love Twitter. Why because it's one of the few places well, frankly, all comes down to this. On Twitter, especially woke media members can get

lots of affirmation and love at any moment. All they have to do is tweet out some you know, some PC bullcrap and they're gonna get thousands of bread tweets and they will get affirmation and love. And that's what they want. And on Twitter, the media because they're all got blue check marks. I mean, how even I have

a blue checkmark? The the that's this is a place where they are deemed to be important people and they get respect and their opinion is deemed matter and so this is why they love it, and therefore they publicize it more and it becomes you know, the symbiotic relationship.

And I think you're exactly right that the number of people that are actually driving this as a percentage of the population is minuscule, which is why we see, you know, the election results in Virginia last week be so completely different than you know what the world the Twitter would have indicated. Yeah, and I use the analogy, you know, dealing with Twitter, mostly in the sports world, but just

in general, it's like the matrix. You don't know what's real and what's not, and you know, you the algorithms, the bots that are on there. It is a wild world in that space. And yet again, the major media companies love it. And as you said, the meat you people like it too. Well. It's easy also, right, Uh. As a reporter, if you needed to get feedback from somebody for a story, a quote for a story, you'd

have to go out and chase people down. Now you can just go on Twitter on your phone and get comments from random people and put that in your story and boom, you're done. Right, You're you're good to go. You can wash your hands with it and move on to the next one. So uh, yeah, I wanted to move over that now I love documentaries, John, I am

obsessed with documentaries. I love that you're making documentaries. You but this Penn State story, which you have been all over and you talked about your past, But why this story? You are known as the Pen Steak Guy. I was talking to a friend of mine and I I said, I'm gonna have John Zigler on the on the podcast. Oh he's the Penn Steak guy. You're the Penn Steak Guy. John. You've become that you've been all over this story for ten years. Uh. While you know most other people have

moved on, you have stuck with it. You've got a podcast that you've done, You've written a number of stories. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on here, and your latest alumn you wrote about your experience ten years almost You have been all over the Penn State story and you have a very unpopular opinion for a lot of people that they don't want to hear what you have to say about this because it goes against

everything that was reported ten years ago. But for those that don't know, maybe the one or two people listening that don't know the back store in this, John, explain how you fell down this rabbit hole with Penn State. It's crazy. Um, this is the most extraordinary experience of my life and career. In many ways, it has been the most interesting. It's also been the most excruciating. It's been the best work of my career. But it's also

something that I wish I had never done. And I think it tells a lot about the times in which we live, which is why this story is way bigger than just the Penn State scandal. Obviously, what people know is that Jerry Zandowski was arrested on child sex abuse charges, and then a few days later, ten years ago this week, Joe Paterno was fired on a cell phone just before his last home game to Stetory. Had become the winner's

coach and history of college football. The president university, Grand Spaniard, was also fired. Two Pence State administrators were effectively also fired, and they were charged. The three administrators ended up going to jail for two months. Jerry Sandusky is still in jail and almost certainly will die in jail. And I

have no connection Defense State. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia, not really that close to State College, but I was a Notre Dame fan growing up I went to Georgetown University, but I know the news media better than anybody on the planet, especially now. Even back in two thousand eleven, I knew the news media very well, and I knew that this was the case, that they were extraordinarily vulnerable, especially under the perfect storm circumstances in the middle of

a moral panic of blowing. I also have an extraordinary BS detector. And this story never made a damn bit of sense, not from the Sandosky perspective. I did not go into this thinking, all right, Jerry Sandusky must be innocent. I'm gonna I'm gonna exonerate Jerry Sandusky. That was the first thing from my mind. I was talking about the Joe paternal angle on this. It made no sense and it's a completely nonsensical story for anybody who understands sports.

I mean, I had coached high school football in two different states, covered college and pro football at a very high level. I know the culture of football, I know the culture of Penn State that I frankly, just from a human perspective, none of this story made any damn sense. Now that doesn't mean it doesn't true. You know, j doesn't make any sense that though j Simpson would kill two people, but there's a ton of evidence though j Simpson killed two people, ton of it, and there was

no evidence here that made any sense. And so I started getting involved, and at first it was from the perspective of Joe Paterno, and it was became very obvious, very early that that the idea of that Joe paternal participated in the cover up for Jerry Sonduski was absurd, completely absurd, and even the prosecutor in the case eventually told h e oh that he didn't believe that that happened. Uh, And the media course ignored that because they already had

their narrative and Joe Paterno was dead at that point. Long, long story short. I kept digging and digging and digging because Joe Paterno on his deathbed said just find out what the truth is, and nobody seemed to be interested in what the truth of this was. And I wanted to find a narrative that actually had some evidence behind it and made some damn sense, And eventually I ended up an interviewing Jayson Dusky in prison twice for a

total of six hours. I want on the Today Show to do high profile interviews with Matt Lawer not once, but twice, the second one with Doddie Sandusky back in, and eventually I became completely, totally, one hundred percent convinced, without a shred of doubt against my own self interest.

But not only was Joe Paterno innocent, not only were the administrators innocent, but the only way to make this story fit at all, that make the puzzle pieces of this story fit was that Jerry Sandusky is also innocent. And it's not even close. And we created a podcast called With the Benefit of Hindsight, which is an epic journey through the real story of what really happened here.

It's twenty one episode. Is It Ends? As we just posted a couple of days ago with a four hour exclusive interview with the former president of the Penn State, Graham Spaniard. We have two of the administrators who went to jail on the podcast, both of whom make it very clear that they believe that Jerry Sandusky is in fact innocent, which is shocking and should be national news.

But the news media doesn't work that way anymore. And the evidence that we have accumulated both in breaking down the convention wisdom of this case and telling you what

actually really did happen is extraordinary. It's it's it's I mean people who have no connection to me, who have fallen on on the podcast with the benefit of hindsight, I'd say we've had hundreds and hundreds of people, not thousands of contact me to say this is the greatest podcast they've ever heard and they don't even really have

any connection to Penn State. Uh and uh and in it extraordinary achievement, But it's not gonna do any good because the news media as their narrative and once they're this invested, they're never going back. They're never going back because they put too many chips down on this one. Then and and and um and I'm telling you it's

not close. I'm telling you, But Jo, what was the moment, because you know a lot of people might be listening to the same What are you doing Jerry Sanduski's you know, he molested children, He's in jail for the rest of his life. Here, what are you saying because you talked to him, and yet what was the thing that led you? Was there one thing in particular other than talking to Jerry Sandusky and his wife that we let may be clear. Let maybe it's a great question, because I'm gonna be clear.

I didn't talk to Jerry. Sanduski gets snowed. I'm just checking. I'm just checking John. I just want there were there were uh two hundred data points before I even talked to Jerry, and then there and then after I talked to Jerry the first time I didn't. I went out of the prison that day saying, oh my god, please don't let him be innocent. Please don't let him be innocent, because I know this is going to ruin my life, because I know myself well enough to know I'm not

going to be level able to let this go. Because I'm the only one in the position to tell this story. I don't want this. So I spent a year trying to prove him guilty, Ben and I couldn't do it because there's no damn evidence and everything he told me checked out a thousand percent. And then I got deeper and deeper and deeper, and it's not close. This this story is absurd, and we you asked, Okay, what was

the moment. There's so many moments, But you know, Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book called Talking to Strangers, the best seller. He's a very famous author and Talking to Strangers best seller book. There's a chapter, chapter five in there, which basically deals with my work on this case, and glad Well goes right up to the precipice of saying Sandusky is innocent, but doesn't have the courage to do so. I think he actually changed his mind of the publisher

changed there his mind at the last minute. But one of the key pieces of information in that chapter is maybe the biggest revelation that we have found, and there's been there's so many of these it's hard to know for sure. But for me, this whole story starts, and this is the first episode of our podcast with the benefit of hindsight. It all starts with the date of the Mike mcquerie episode. You know, to me, you're you're gonna make an allegation as Mike mcquery did that. I

you know, I witnessed Jerryson Dusky. He's actually assaulting a young boy in a Penn State shower. The first thing you want to know is, Okay, when did this happen? The vast majority of people, even media members, ben don't know that. When he testified for the first time, and this was reported widely ten years ago. This week he said that this happened on March one of two thousand and two, and that's you know, that was the date that Joe Paterno thought this happened when he died a

couple of months after the scandal. But then very qui lightly and the media was very diligent about covering this up. Just before Jerry Sinowski's trial, the prosecution had to announce, um, oops, um, Mike got the date, the month, and the year wrong, because now we have emails that prove when he went to go see Joe Paterno, and so now we are surmising, based upon those emails, does this actually happened in February February ninth of the year before two thousand one, thirteen

months before what had been widely reported. When Paterno got fired, Spaniard got fired, all firestorms started. And my my reaction was, Woa, woa, woo woo woo woo, woa, We're gonna put all of this on a story that's ten years old, where we have no accuser at this point none. The media just ignored that part of this and where the witness this during incredibly dramatic event. He can't tell you the date, the month, or the year in which had happened. And then it gets better, And this is where I made

my biggest screw up of the entire case. I should have been able to figure out that even that second date was wrong very early on in my investigation. But even I felt like, there's no possible way the prosecution could get this so wrong twice, but they did. The second date is a fabrication. Mike mcquerie did not witnessed this event on February ninth of two thousand one, and then go see Joe Paterno on the next morning. That's not what happened. He saw this, or witness this whatever.

It was a shower with a boy, and that's a whole different story who the boy was on December twenty nine, two thousand. I've now proven that Malcolm Gladwell believes. I've proven that Gary Schultz, the administrator, believes. I've proven that Grand Span of the President believes. I've proven that Jerry Sandusky believes. I've proven that because even he couldn't remember what the date was, he just knew that the prosecution's date was wrong. And the reason why that's so critical,

then is it? Now there's a six week gap, six weeks in the time that this happens, and Mike mcquery first reports it, not to the police but to Joe Paternal in the morning in February ten, two thousand one. And then here's the kicker. What happened on February uh the day before he goes to see Joe paternal Sebury nine, two thousand one. What what might have been the trigger for why Mike McQuary goes to see Joe paternal Not this six weeks old witnessing of Jerry in a shower

with a boy. No, the job that Mike mcquery wanted, the wide receiver's coaching job opens up at Penn State when Kenny Jackson leaves Penn State to go to the Pittsburgh's Dealers. It's in the paper the morning of February ninth, two thousand and then, Whailah, Just by coincidence, Mike McQuary goes to see Joe Paterno on February tenth. That morning. He's not going there to tell him, oh my god, Joe,

I saw Jerry Zudoski raping a boy last night. He's going there to see what or not he can get the Kenny Jackson job and the oh, by the way, coach, I saw Jerry in a in a shower with a boy. It made me uncomfortable. You might want to talk to him about it. That was the afterthought of what happened,

and all the evidence supports that scenario. And when the Mike mcquery episode disintegrates into not a rape of a boy, but of Jerry Sandusky showering after a workout with a thirteen year old he thought of as a son by the name of Alan Myers, whose own testimony is very clear that nothing bad ever happened between him and Jerry Zandusky, then now all of a sudden, the pillar of the case has just been disintegrated and the case falls apart from there. And that's really the key element of this

or people to understand. Once you understand the Mike mcquery episode was a fabrication, then you understand that the rest of this case and in an incredible easy fashion and a domino effect of of a perfect storm of panic and injustice. All right, So then the question would be, if that's the case, and you've been investigating this, why would there not be some kind of opening up of the case again and looking it over, because, as you said, Jerry Sanduski is likely going to to die in in jail.

If if what you're saying is accurate and this is all all checks out, why couldn't they go back and open up Because that's not There's a couple of reasons. One, that's not the way this system works. That's not the way the legal system works. In order for Jerry Sandowski to get a new trial, they have to prove a constitutional issue with the due process of the first trial. Now,

in a irrational world, that would be incredibly easy. I have to tell you, even if Jerry Sandowski was guilty, even if he was guilty, his trial was such an unbelievable joke that if it was not a famous case, if there was not politics involved, a new trial would have been a faded complete I mean, I've I've watched a hundred date lines where people get new trials based upon one one thousands of the due process issues that were involved in Jerry Sandowski's trial. But here's where the

perfect storm comes in. In Pennsylvania, all the judges are elected, and because of the politics of this case, because of the media coverage of this case. Any judge that orders a new trial for Jerry Sandowski is effectively ending their career, and Jerry Sanowski's lawyer himself has been shocked time and time again. People don't even understand Jerry is still appealing on a regular basis that never happens in a serial

child molester case. You I would I defy anyone to find me a serial child molester case with no pornography, no confession, no plea bargain, and where the person who end up getting convicted is still appealing vigorously with no money, no political capital, ten years later. That never ever, ever, ever happens. And the reason why it's happening in this case is because you have an innocent man who has

no other choice. He's fighting for his life and he doesn't understand because he's very naive that he that he will never getting fair shake in Pennsylvania because of the politics involved, because everyone is so deeply invested in this fairy tale. That's why this cannot be reversed. I have urged him, and other people close to him, including his lawyer, have urged him to go to federal court. But if

he goes to federal court and he loses. His life is over because now he has nothing to do, he has nothing to focus on, he has no hope I have. I've given this analogy to his family. I think it's a good one. In state court, he can keep going back and appealing basically every six months or a year. So basically, for the rest of Jerry Sanduski's life, he gets to run a fourth and seventy five play, you know,

every six months or a year. He's never gonna make that fourth and seventy five, but he gets to keep trying. If he goes to federal court, he gets one shot at fourth and six, and if he misses the fourth and six, his life is over. And he cannot handle that from a psychological standpoint. So that's the answer to your question. Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Miller Show weekdays at two a m. Eastern eleven p m. Pacific. So, John, you've done the podcast talking

about this, You've covered it. What is next for you on this st are you? Are you done with the Penn State story and now has been ten years. Are you going to continue to follow this or are you just gonna move on to something else? What's the plan here, Well, I still want people to listen to our podcast with the benefit of hindsight. It's a remarkable historical document. You don't even have to care about the Penn State case

to be interested in the podcast. It tells you so much about the nature of our media, the nature of our our system, the nature of humanity. By the way, I've had a lot of people tell me this organical, and I did this on purpose. I actually think you can understand a lot about our reaction to COVID, as I've already implied in this interview, by by listening to

this podcast. I mean, the parallels are remarkable, you know, the the reaction to everything in a panic, the politics, the propaganda, the emotional investment, the lack of evidence supporting what we're doing. But there's no way to get out of this, and there's so many comparisons, So I really want people to check out with the benefit of hindsight. I um fully acknowledge that that the ten year marked for me psychologically. I was spen pointing as the time

when I I end this for me. Um you know, there there are a couple of things that were supposed to happen on the tenth anniversary that have been delayed. ESPN is has been planning a special I have no faith in them at all, but those who have been interviewed for it say that it's far more pro paternal than anything LS ESPN has ever done before. And there's a mainstream news media, let a print outlet that's been investigating this case or two years from what seems to

be a very pro Jerry Zandowski perspective. For some reason, they have not hit the tenth anniversary. So unfortunately, those are gonna still hang over my head, as you know, some semblance of hope that theoretically something might change, even

though I have grave skepticism about that. But I have to tell you my experience in this case, combined with my experience with COVID, combined with having gone through the Trump era, I'm now at the point where I don't even know why I bothered to be part of the public discourse, because we're now living in a world where

truth means nothing. In fact, when I ended the documentary film I did about the Penn State case back at two thousand twelve, called The Framing of Joe Paternal you can find it for free at YouTube, I end the documentary by saying, one of these we're gonna fight out in this case is whether or not the truth still matters? And uh, And here we are now nine years after that, and at least we now know the truth does not matter. The truth does not matter in today's world. And I'm

a truth guy. I am not a you know, give you what you want to hear for to make me popular guy. That's what sells in the media now, the coin of the realm, and the media used to be mostly truth. Now it's all popularity. It's all tell people what they want to hear. And there's there's reasons why that happened once. I'm happy to go into if you're interested,

But the reality is that's the case. And you know, I don't know what I'm gonna do, but there's a there's a reasonable chance that in the next few weeks or whatever, a month, you may never hear from me again. I may just go off the grid and just say screw it, because it's just it's just not worth it to me. I just don't have is This has never been a money making endeavor for me. It's not about making a living. And now you can't even tell the truth in any platform or forum that that makes any

difference if it doesn't fit with what the corporate media wants. Well, yeah, and John, I mean I just to follow that up. I mean, the thing we deal with it a lot in the sports world, but in politics it's even worse. It's tribalism, right, It's like you gotta give the give the red meat to the people that you know need the red meat, and not you know, not give them

anything other than that. And you know, it's it's become even worse over the last like five ten years, it's gotten completely out of the media is now all about finding a tribe that fits you know, who you are, and then feeding that tribe what they want. That's what this is, which is the exact opposite of what journalism is supposed to be. And I don't believe journalism was ever perfect, but it was a lot better than it

is now, that's for sure. Well, you mentioned you mentioned John and your in your column that you wrote h the latest column about the Penn State story, and I'm sure you mentioned this on the on the the podcast you did that the modern media, Uh, it's it's you compared it to the movie industry, right, the way that they handle things in media today. Can you expand on that? And because I I think that was a thank you, thank you for pointing that out, because I do think

it's true. You know, movies, and I know here we are in Los Angeles and Pensiltown, the movies, even movies that were about true stories, they used to at least say based on a true story, right, and now the dramatic license has gotten so ridiculous that basically it's just based on theoretical stuff that might have been true, probably wasn't. But you know what makes a great story. I mean that that's that's the new standard in Hollywood for a

supposed non fiction movie. Well, the news media is following that model. Is all now about narrative. What's the most compelling narrative we can find? So so we're gonna cobble together these fun means what seemed to be facts. We don't even know if they're really facts, but they're you know, fact ish, and we're gonna cobble these together, and we're gonna get cocked the narrative that is most salacious and

best for us in that moment. And we've seen this constantly and you know, I think again, I'm not a trunk guy, but I think the media did that with the Trump Russia investigation. I mean, all you know, basically Trump was a Manchurian candidate, right because they cobbled together, um, you know, some of these things that seemed to be facts. And I think Trump actually did some things wrong with reguard to to Russia, but he's clearly not a Manchurian candidate.

We've seen it in so many other situations. I mean, this keeps happening, you know. I've often said that the Penn State cases that commonents, Like if I was pitching in as a movie, it's basically Faraknos meets Jesse small Act meets man Ti Teo meets Duke Lacrosse. I mean, I mean that's basically me what it is. Um And it keeps happening because the media falls in love with narrative, and then once they fall in love, there's no going back because, as we've seen with COVID, nobody ever wants

to admit they were wrong. It's amazing. I mean, I'm the only guy and I know that I admit I'm wrong all the time. I frankly, as a married guy, I thought that came a second nature. You admit you're wrong constantly. I mean, but it's just amazing to me that no one ever wants to admit that they were wrong. We all got it wrong about Penn State, and it created a massive injustice to destroy the lives of five really good men, and an institution's reputation was destroyed forever,

and a lot of other people got hurt tangentially. But this story is much bigger than that, because if it can happen to them, it can happen to anybody. And it shows us so much about what is wrong with our culture. And frankly, I don't think it's gonna get any better. I think it's only gonna get worse. It's also it's also human nature, though, right, I mean, people, you know basic marketing. I remember taking a marketing class back in in college and they said, you gotta get

kids early. That's why the happy meal is so successful, is because once somebody makes their mind up that something's good or bad or right or wrong, they don't Nobody wants to change their mind. But it is even worse now than you know, at any other point I in my life anyway, I don't know before that. But it's and and there's a lot of reasons why it happened, why it can't be fixed. But a large part of this has to do with fragmentation of the news media.

Because we you know, back in the in the in the era where we had four television stations and it was a license to print money to own a newspaper or radio station. No one needed to do this. You didn't have to create the fictional movie. You could actually run the real movie and it would make movie, It would make money. You see where I'm going is you

didn't have to juice it. Now you have to juice said because everyone is so desperate for every scrap of ratings they can get, because the business model is broken. That's the heart of a problem. And um, and you know, Penn State really was the first major story that made this abundantly clear. You know, I will now forever, based upon what's happened this year, I will now refer to Penn State as the first let's go Brandon story. I mean,

where where the news media it didn't matter. I mean, I I truly believe, I truly believe that to this day. A couple of the major accusers in this case could come forward, They could do an interview saying we lied for money. Jerry Zudoski never abused us, and the media would report that they said, let's go Brandon. That's what they would do. That's hilarious. Hey, John, listen, I love you for doing this man, Thank you so much. You are I love your enthusiasm, your passion as uh as

I told you earlier, but continued success. And how can people follow you if they want to read your column and you've obviously made a bunch of documentaries and whatnot, and you're all over Twitter. Yeah, the best place to find me is on Twitter. And my Twitter feed is is a terrible handle. It's zigmn freud z e I g m A n freud um. Or just look up for John John Sigler z I E g l e r uh and everything I do you can find there. Although our our website for the With the Benefit of

Findsight podcast is www dot Framing Paterno dot com. You can find all the raw interviews. We did dozens of hours of raw interviews, but we that's how transparent we are. We put out the raw unedited interviews we did for this podcast at Framing Paterno dot com. Awesome. Thank you, John, appreciate it. Thanks Man,