Gathering Intelligence

a sole fashion of fairness. He treats crackheads in the ghetto cutter the same as the rich pill poppers in the penthouse, to clearinghouse of hot takes, break free for something special. The Fifth Hour with Ben Maller starts right now in the ale everywhere, back at it again. Another weekend is upon us. This a spinoff of The Ben Maller Show heard overnights as you know on Fox Sports Radio,

and we do this every Friday, Saturday and Sunday. This is the Friday Podcast And doesn't matter whether you're in the country club or the trailer park, we are here for you. On the fifth Hour, David Gascon is with us. Yes for the four O five ras shown that a cool up I got some raving news. A couple of days ago before Opening Day in Major League Baseball, that we have eclipsed the highest downloaded numbers ever in the

history of The Fifth Hour with Ben Maller. And also the last two or three episodes were higher than any show you have broadcasted on live radio over the last year and a half. How about that? How about them apples? We actually have a live audience. Yeah, but they're not really alive. They're live, but they're not alive attack. I mean when they have syringes in their arms or when

they're intoxicated from alcohol. It doesn't really count that we're here. Again, you're not proving you and I are an elitist loo user. This could be like this is like Gretzky Curry Magic, Kareem hers Scheizer's sosha, like this is a good combination. No it's not, but I listen, I I I'm willing to hang out with the Hillbillies and the Hoi POLLOI and all that. And you can hang out and have cocktails at the at the bar with all the elites. Uh,

that's fine. I am a proud Neanderthal. Anyway, Well, this is not about us. We will delve into the tremendously exciting news about the downloads, which we're probably jinks will go back to zero now, but we we we will welcome in right now. Guy who I've been an admirer. I've read his his work for many many years. He's bounced all over the place. His name is Michael McCarthy. He's a sports business guy. He's a senior writer at Front Office Sports dot com. You should check it out.

It's not one of the big corporate run websites. It's a start up Front Office sports dot com. If you're into the business of sports. Uh. They do a lot of good stuff at that website. But Michael McCarthy has been around. He's worked at the The New York Times, He's had by lines at the New York Times, Sports Illustrated us A Today. He's done work for CNBC, The Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated. He has been all over

the map. He's even done some teaching. Uh. And I'm sure that will be brought up here at some point. But let's get into the business of sport. An interesting conversation on tap here. As sports and television and media are embedded together, we've certainly learned that more and more over the last year with it not mattering that fans are actually at the games are not and the television money continue to come in. But welcome in, Michael, thank you for spending some time with us. So the NFL

is the king. It keeps the lights on in these parts, we like to say. So let's start with the n f L. And you wrote that. Roger wrote recently, Roger Udell wants the NFL to generate twenty seven billion dollars in annual revenue. By It's an amazing number, twenty seven billion dollars. Obviously, so Michael explained to me how that's actually gonna work. Okay, yeah, Well, I mean the big uh money maker for the NFL is obviously TV rights.

I mean, if you look at their recent TV deals, they're getting something like, you know, four hundred and fifteen billion, uh, you know, just right off the bat. And they have the ability to pull out of the deal after seven years of gambling takes off and go back to the table too. I think his international expansion. I fully believe there will be a team in London, in Mexico City, uh,

in an international market for the next five years. You better believe the NFL looks obviously at how well the NBA and will BE have done overseas, and they want some of that for themselves. So do you think they'll be expansion teams, They're gonna go to thirty four teams, or they're just going to relocate a couple of teams that are currently in American cities. It's a great question. It's tb D. I think it's fifty fifty. I mean, you know, I could see a team like Jacksonville, which

already has a huge fan base in London. Uh, and I think that was on purpose, uh, you know, being transferred over there. I could also see them expanding. What do I think about the NFL that I've always liked is they do not sit on their laurels. I mean like going to seventeen games. I mean, can you imagine that in baseball below? Oh my god, what will the throw of the record books? Doesn't care like seventeen games? Yeah, sure, but just you know, throughout the old record book, I

thought of no One. Yeah, and Michael I. I am casual friends with Fred Dryer and he told me when he played in the NFL back in the seventies and the ease that the owners then wanted an eighteen game schedule. They they were very passionate about that. And that's over forty years ago when that was going on. So isn't this just a temporary stop to eighteen games? Like that, we're at seventeen for X number of years, But the goal is to get to eighteen, correct. I think I

totally agree with you. I think the goal is to get to eighteen. And I think you know, who knows what the goal will be ten years from now. I mean, there was one famous NFL g M who said, you know, where the ranchers, you're the cattle. Uh. And you know they may say whatever they want publicly, but you know, two billionaires, they're still the ranchers and the players are still the cattle. Yeah and yeah, I mean, I'll go back to what you said. With the possible expansion to

the NFL. It's it's an odd deal because we've established like there's a certain number, there's this Goldilocks zone of teams that you can only have a finite amount of teams in any of these sports leagues. The NFL's got thirty two, Baseball has got thirty. Uh, it's like right around that number. But if we were to come back, you know, two hundred years from now and say sports is still around in society, is the same relatively, how

many teams do you think there would be? I mean they've been in that area between twenty thirty two, right around there for a while. Would we see forty five fifty teams? I mean, how high giving him go before it becomes problematic? I think I think you could easily go, uh, you know, forty teams. Uh. You know, we're talking about a country that's now over three million people, you know, a country which is you know, changing demographically, changing racially.

You know, millions upon millions of American citizens are on the move, creating new suburbs of new mega lot polus is all over the place. Uh So I mean you fold the population. Uh. You know, remember about end of fifteen years ago doing a story for the USA Today, they sent me out to Las Vegas to do a what if story? Like what if sports ever gave up their opposition into gambling? Could sports ever come to Las Vegas?

And it's like that, I think about it, and that story is a joke, of course, it has you know what I mean? And you know, you go to the NFL team the NFL stay to you with the NHL and everything else. So yeah, I mean I think the sky the women. Yeah, and uh, I didn't want to talk to you. I know you've written some about Al Michaels and the NBC and just the Drew Brees move

and how that all relates. But you know everything that I've been hearing and reading from guys like yourself there, it certainly sounds like NBC is planning to, shall I say, force Al Michaels out after the upcoming season. And if that is accurate, let's start with that. Is that, if that's accurate, is this Al's decision or is he gonna go work somewhere else? Wison called NFL games. Uh hey, I don't think that's accurate. Al's contract goes through the

two thousand and twenty two Super Bowl in Los Angeles. Um, and it could uh all be very amicable. You know, Al is seventy six, seventy seventies old. You might just decide like Dick Stockin did this week, to say, Okay, I'm gonna hang up my cleats and hang up my microphone. However, I think the idea of them forcing Al Michael's out is a bit overblown. I think, you know, it would have to be a decision that Al goes along with, or Al could just pick up his chips and move

to another network. I mean, you've got ESPN and ABC sitting there in the Super Bowl rotation. Al would look pretty good in one of those yellow canary yellow ABC blazers when they do the Super Bowl. NBC would have to make that decision to be a throwback, absolutely, But they have brought in Drew Breese and the You don't bring in a guy like that unless you think that he's going to be with Obviously he's the analyst. So does that mean Chris Collinsworth is got one foot out

the door? Yeah? Yeah, Really, we're talking about two different things. I mean, Mike Tariko is obviously the heir apparent to Al Michaels, just like he was the heir apparent to Bob Costas. You know, whether that happens after the next Super Bowl or not, But Mike Tarrico will eventually call

UH Sunday Night Football. The Drew Brees question, I think it's more immediate about Chris Collinsworth because you know Drew Brees is going to come in, as you know, play by a game analyst on Notre Dame and a studio analyst, and he could replace Chris Collinsworth. So what we could be looking at within a couple of years is an al Michael's Chris Collinsworth booth go into a Mike Tarriko. Uh. Yeah. The question about Breezes. Everybody assumes he's gonna be great, right,

Tony Romo was great? Great? Now it doesn't work that way. There's tons of ex athletes and ex coaches who flopped on TV. I give you Emmett Smith, and you know, Joe Montana and a bunch of others. So there's no guarantee that Drew Brees is gonna be great. And if he isn't great, don't just keep Collinsworth. Yeah, And I always bring this up on my My Overnight show, Michael, the quote from Howard Cosell about the jock ocracy of sports television, And if Howard was still around today, oh

my god, his head would explode from all that. It's only gotten more pronounced over the years with guys walking off the field into TV jypt. But Breeze already had this lined up a couple of years ago with the Saints he seems. Now, if you were betting man, Michael, you cover this stuff and you've done this for a long time to do a great job. But if you were a betting man, would you bet that Breeze is

good or bad? I think he's gonna be kind of mediocre because he comes across to me is just too polite. I think you've got to have a little edge to you to be good at that. Yeah, I mean just an interviews and being on the press court with him, he seems kind of earnest and hard working, you know, kind of like a you know, a boy scout. He's gonna go in there and give it are But a lot of times that doesn't work on TV. Jason Witten

tried that on Moday Night Football. You know, he worked as hard as anybody, but he was terrible, and you know he ran back to the NFL. Uh tell you the truth. I mean, you want to pick a wild card who could be great on TV? I'm here and it's Philip Rivers. Uh. You know, if he wants to do TV, people think he could be the next Dandy Don He's got that kind of southern charm and he loves to talk and he loves the bullshit and he loves to, you know, talk smack, so he could really

do it. But I mean, if I was a betting man, and I'm not, I you know, would put Breathe down as being average with potential for good. Michael, speaking of BS, who I mean outside the National Football who do you think made out the best with this new your rights deal with the National Football League? Is it ABC? ESPN?

Is it Amazon? Like? Where do you feel? Because for as much as we have gone towards the digital realm, there's still a lot of people that don't access the Internet in terms of watching content on there, and I think the Thursday Night package it's been challenging at least for a lot of people to find the game itself and then to obviously enjoy it from either an iPad or a Mac or even a PC. Like, well, who do you feel made out the best in terms of

network coverage? And then the world is the company? The world is the company? ABC and ESPN got a Super Bowl, two Super Bowls ESPN since its founding in nineteen seventy nine, and a little trailer in uh, you know, an empty field somewhere in Bristol, Connecticut has dreamed of getting a Super Bowl. This legitimizes in a way that they've never been legitimized before. Number two, Monday and Night Football gets flexible scheduling. How llelujah, we don't have to sit through

these dog games in December with two losing teams. And I mean that will do huge boos for ESPN's ratings because right up until now, the only network that has had flexible scheduling is is NBC for Something and football. So I think, hands down the winner of this deal was the Walt Disney Company. And the bigger story here is the growing alliance between the NFL and Disney. I mean,

these two corporations are becoming joined at the hip. You know, they're playing at each other like two teenagers in heat. So you know, right now, Disney, you know what I mean, is the golden child for the NFL and by stories and vice versa. Yeah, we haven't seen since the glory days of Gary Thorne back then with the National Hockey League. But what gives you the sense that this will work the second time around with the NHL and ESPN. I

think ESPN, for one thing, really wants it. You know, these networks have all come around to a signal idea, which is live game rights are everything. You know, we in the media are certainly guilty of this, and I'm certainly guilty of They're talking so much about studio program first take and you know, skip ballas and all this, but the network suits, the people who run this business have come to conclusion that it's all about live game rights. And you have a sport that with which is one

of the biggest sports in the world. You have a young, tech savvy UHAD base, and you have a fan base in the NHL that is rabbit. Yeah, they feel with justification that they don't get as much attention as the other sports. And when somebody like ESPN we'll start to broadcast their games again and talk about it, it will be a huge boost for the sport. Having said that, I think we should pour one out for NBC. I think NBC did a fantastic job of the last ten years.

Innovations like the Winter Classic outdoor Hockey game will go down in history. They did a wonderful job. Yeah, the scene in late Todd who was fantastic on that note too, with live programming, Because Ben and I talked about this at good length do you think in a way this also saves the networks because of the program the in studio programs. You know, they've they've at times gone a little too controversial or gone political, and that disenfranchises people

from watching their shows. So do you think in a way that actually saves the networks from having to worry about any of that other junk that doesn't have to do with sports specific related material. I believe it too, And I believe that's a that's a really interesting and in smart insight. I think, you know, the NFL giving eleven year deals to traditional linear legacy networks will keep them in business for the next twenty years where they might have gone out of business. I mean, somebody used

this comparison. I wish I could remember who, but it was a great one, which is, uh, sports has become of a jinga game for TV networks. If you remove that block, they would crumble into dust. And you know, through this deal with the NFL, these networks will be in business, you know, at least for the next eleven years. And I think that's great. With with the way that salaries have been thrown out there. I saw this on on Thursday. You know, George Kittle. His his deal for

this season is guaranteed. He's making a salary just a hair over eleven million dollars. But it's hard for me to imagine or to fathom the fact that he's making eleven million dollars a year. That's a little bit more than Jim Nats and seven million dollars less or eight million dollars less than than Tony Romo. Will there ever be a curve to what these broadcasters are making at

the bigger stages. I don't think so, uh, you know, And it's a it's a great question because there was a time when John Madden made more than any player in the NFL. Think about that. John Madden was so big as a broadcasters he made more money any single

NFL player, Joe Montana or whatever. But as far as the Tony Romo thing, I'm already seen a big backlash against that, uh, you know, naturally after Tony Romo got that contract, and congratulations Tony Romo because it's great, but you know, everybody who's an A list talent said I want Tony ronoand money. Uh. And you know, I mean networks are already fighting back hard. They're saying, you know, Look, this guy's a unicorn. You know, he had the right timing.

All this happened before the pandemic. He had the Super Bowl coming up. So I don't think we'll ever see that. I mean, the way these revenues keep exploding for the NBA and the NFL, and the players make anywhere between forty that I don't think you'll ever see announcers equaling the pay of broadcasts, I mean equaling the pay of players. Well, Michael, as far as it's just a general censor of these

networks and you're talking about keeping them in business. I had a buddy that worked at ABC back when they had money Night Football originally back and near the end of the run, and they were losing money. It was a loss leader. I can't imagine they're making money now with the money that's being paid for these rights. Is that still the case? And how much do you think

they're actually losing on these TV deals. I don't think it's the case that they're all losing money like the way that you SA Remember I covered that era too, and that's a great point. You know, one of the reasons why CBS, you know, got out of the NFL business. They were losing money. You remember, I think the networks have come to this conclusion they're gonna lose a hell of a lot more without the NFL than they would

with the NFL. And if you've got the playoffs, and you've got the conference championships, and you've got the Super Bowl, which prints money, you could even make money. Uh. But it's still a dynamic that's at work. I mean, one of the reasons why the Linear Network shunned Thurst Football it was it was just hard to make money on it. You to share it with NFL network, you gotta share it with the local broadcasters, you've got share it with Amazon.

And you know, they just said we're out. But I think you know what I mean that there still is a huge opportunity to make money with the NFL. If there wasn't, they wouldn't be in business with them. Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific. Be sure to catch live editions of The Ben Maller Show weekdays at two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports

Radio and the I Heart Radio app. How concerning is it though, with people moving to streaming now getting ray away from the satellite cable, more and more people cutting the cord and you can watch everything online and streaming and everyone, Michael, as you know, should pay the rights fees for the packages. But a lot of people are on the pirate ship, and there are ways you can watch many of these games without actually having to pay

for them. So how much danger do you think that is to the business model of the NFL and just sports in general, which is so depending on people paying extra to watch the games. I think it's a huge threat. I teach it Rutgers and sports sports journalism there for five years, and when I talked to these eighteen ninety one, the woral of students they just don't watch TV anymore. They watch everything on demand, when and how they wanted.

So it's a huge threat of a piracy. These new consumers who were tech savvy getting getting the product without paying for it, or two just dropping out of the habit of live sports. Um, you know, they didn't grow up like we grew up, where it's like, oh, the Yankee game is on at seven and I'm gonna spend

three hours watching this. They don't think like that. They think I'll watch it on my phone, or I'll just watch the highlights, or I'll just go to house the highlights and I'll see the clips and the in That is a huge problem, and I think that's why you're seeing the network and the NFL working so hard to try to attract young reviewers with everything from that, you know, uh, that crazy Nickelodeon game with the slime to Mega cast

everything else. Michael, Back in the nineties, I used to love the NFL and NBC and the NBA on NBC. I don't know if it was because of the broadcasters, because the music, because t is all of it right, Um, Like, what would you put up there as pound for pound the best product right now on television? And I mean everything Like the UFC two sixty last week was was great. Obviously they had Fight Island. Uh, the Olympic coverage with NBC, NFL, NBA.

Like where do you fit in all of this? Like who do you think has the best product pound for pound for a particular sport? Oh? And that's a great question, because yeah, I mean like you, I mean, I love Round Bull Rock and NBC and that those great NBA games. I mean, if I had to pick a league that you know, it has the best product, best television product. It's handed down the NFL. Um you know, the Fox and CBS games on Sunday afternoon are the single most

watched games of the week and every single week. And NBC Saturday Night Football is the single most watched program in prime time for ten years in a row. I mean the old Rectord was five years and that was a gun, smoke and all in the family. Just ten years in a row. It bores away everything Drava scripted comedies,

reality football football number one. I mean, the football product is so so good that it's going to be a challenge for them to get viewers back in the stadium when you've got such a great television product, I say, you know, the NBA Olympic NBC's Olympic coverage is just outstanding and beautiful and it moves you, uh in such a way that's you know, it's incredible. And then you have the ESPN which does just, you know, just to such a great job on college sports, and the NFL

and the NBA and MLB. I mean, I can go on and on, but you know they're the king of luck coverage. Yeah, Michael you know, during the pandemic when there were no sports for a hundred and thirty four days. Last year, I fell into the rabbit hole on YouTube of watching random old games. So I realized that this is merely for me nostalgia. But there are so many channels hidden on YouTube that just broadcast random Monday night baseball games with Keith Jackson and Cosell back in that

year and whatnot. It is, it is, it is wild. It's a it's a gold mine. You see how sports television has changed. Uh? And are those allowed though? I mean it seems like those are still. How long does the trademark last? How long does the copyright last? It's I love it. I hope it doesn't go away. But I I'm fascinated that they can put a three hour random you know, Yankee Tiger game from on YouTube and not get in trouble. For I know, it's like bringing

back ESPN Classic, remember that network. Yes, yes, go back and watching teams and the announcers. Uh, you grow up, you grow up with I mean with you. I love you know, going back into the time capsule and you know feeling you know, twelve beforeteen again, you know, watching the Yankees in the World Series or whatever it was. But I think there's those games also have a shelf life. I mean I remember doing this story exactly. I don't know it was a year ago, but just about a

year ago, you know, during the pandemic. It every single network I talked to, from ESPN to the regionals were bringing out classic programming. Right, So if you were in Detroit, you saw the bird Federich, if you were in New York you saw or you know, Reggie Jackson, you know, or if you were in l A, you know, you'd see Fernando and what they found that after about a week of that, people stopped watching. I think got a little dose like this is great, and then they stopped.

And the reason they stopped because it just doesn't have the power in the attraction of a live game. A live game where you don't know who's gonna win, where you don't know what's gonna happen when you're anticipating next grade game is the single greatest reality at the tavement

in the world. And you can't replace that. No, I agree with you and I but I usually when I'm watching, I'll be like doing so I'll be on the treadmill and I'll stumble into a like a game, and they don't usually put the score up, but I would agree if you know the outcome of the game, like big playoff games, and you know what's gonna happen. But some of these, like I would watch him when I was a kid, these Monday night baseball games, and I don't remember,

you know, a random Brewers game against whoever. So it's a it is unique that way. Now I wanted to move on. How about this Jim Nance story. I know you've covered this here. Jim Nancy was supposedly a free agent, was appending free agent. He was still with CBS. Obviously he resigned. Uh And I had heard whispers and can you confirm it tonight that Jim Nay was so he's so in with the Masters people that if he had actually left CBS, they would have taken the Masters TV

deal with him. Is that? Does that have any kernel of truth to it? You know I had heard the same rumor. I was never able to pin it down. I mean, he is synonymous with the Masters, his voice, his face, and the Masters does whatever they want. I mean, what's amazing is you know these people who run out got the national they don't follow the rules like everybody else. I mean, they've had CBS on a one year deal

for fifty years. Can you imagine you Maaster been a network was on a one year contract for fifty plus years. So I mean, is that possible. I wasn't able to pin it down enough to you know, to report that, but yeah, I think it's possible. They love dance, and Nance loves the Masters, and nances on record saying he wants to call the Masters to least seventy five years old,

which is another fourteen years or so. So you know, Nan to me is you know what I mean, one of the you know, the four or five top talents in the whole industry. And he means a lot to the players, I mean to the members who run that club, and you know what I mean, And they do have options. I mean you're telling me, wouldn't NBC wouldn't love to get their hands on the Masters. ESPN's got the early rounds, Now what would they give for all four rounds for

the Masters? So yeah, I mean the Nance negotiation was fascinating. Um, you know, he was, you know, this guy who everybody sees as a lifer, But look this is business. I mean, remember we grew up with John Madden, Madden word for all four networks, right, yeah, yeah, just this is business.

You know. So if if Jim Nance had the opportunity to move to a bunch better job where he would be happier and more respected, I think he could have been would have the fact that CBS recognized that recognized how valuable he is, and he recognized how happy he is. It is CBS worked out to a good conclusion. Michael, speaking of golf um coverage over the last week, maybe week and a half, about what's going on in in Georgia with Major League Baseball and Dave Roberts had made

some comments out here in Los Angeles. What are you hearing about Major League Baseball their stance on the All Star Game in Atlanta? And do you think that we'll see more of this? And if so, which what do you think the wind blows? Do you think this would be a huge lift or do you think this would be a huge blowback if major League clubs or leagues themselves take a stance against certain states legislators, governors and

how they operate their states respectively. Yeah, I think you know the first question I think absolutely, we're gonna see sports and politics in twined. Even more, you're gonna have you know, groups and political parties across the aisle, you know, weighing in. You know what I mean, for sports to do this, to do that because of political reasons. I mean, Joe Biden was on ESPN the other night, you know, speaking out about it. So I think that you know,

horses out of the barn. You know, the idea that you know who sports and politics shouldn't forget it, that you know that that auguments over However, you know what I mean, And one of the few people in the media who is willing to say this, I do think there's blown back from it. I do think when you mingle sports and politics, anytime you delve into politics as corporation or corporate entity, you risk alienating half the audience.

You get the people who who agree with you to support you, and the people who don't agree with you, we're not going to support you. And I think there was a recent surveying, and like the last week or two ago that said, you know, viewers have stopped watching certain sports or stopped participating as much being a sports fan because they were sick of the creeping uh intrusion of Paul Fix into sports. So I expected to continue,

and I expect it to be blowback. If there's one league out there that you think won't actually go down or even rise up to the third rail into any of this, what lead do you think that is NFL? Um You know, when you look at the NFL there their seasonal audience has dropped eight percent this year. Now that's not as bad as you know, ten percent dropped a couple of years ago, but I mean you compare it to you know, some of the forty drops to the NBA finals in Kentucky, Derby and Danley had finals

and in baseball and you know what I mean. So if there's one uh sports league that's still bulletproof against that, uh, it's the NFL. And you know, and to the point about blowback also, I think the league's recognize this. I mean, you know, Adam Silver has come out and said they're going to tone down the politics. You know this season.

You know, we're gonna remove you know, all the banners and the signs from player jerseys and courtside that you know that the league is you know, very you know, confident that they made their point, you know, during a very important part of American history, and and now they want to just go on and play. But you know,

like you say, sports can't hide anymore. You know, when when Joe Biden has been in office for a month, you know, gets up and start saying, you know, sports should do this or that, or Trump is from the bully pulpit on Twitter, you know, criticizing ESPN. There's no escaping anymore. Yeah. I just have a hard time listening to either coaches or managers or even players to that matter, that don't read everything that has to go on, like with a bill or with any kind of legislation that's

being presented. I have a hard time listening and and respecting that when they're dedicated their life to their profession. So how can you be so invested in your craft and what you're doing and plus your celebrity status, they all of a sudden you you venture into what's happening on the opposite side of the country. Uh, in a city, you're in a state or something like that. It just doesn't add up for me. Well, what what it adds

up as to an insufferability factor? You know, a TV viewers and Americans are you know, tired of rich, insufferable

Hollywood celebrities lecturing them how to live their lives. And we're getting dangerously close to that with sports to you have athletes who are making you know, heads of billions of dollars, you know, lecturing you know, people who are trying to you know, make ends meet week to week, month to month, and it's kind of like, hey, you know, the high ground gets kind of you know, the moral high ground gets kind of slippery, particularly when you're not

saying the same thing about China in other countries. You're just criticizing our own country. So they really got to watch that where you know what I mean, they don't have make create a basic disconnect between them and the fans that supports them. Yeah, and I think it cuts both ways. Michael, mean, it seems like this, you know, politics and sports is really a democratic issue. There's no to my knowledge, there's no sports leagues that are of

a republican based dogma. Uh And can you imagine if one of the sports leagues took a position on the other side, people's heads would explode there also, But I think it's just the case and we as you said, you referenced that study, and that's a great study that just came out within the last like ten days or so, and it was across the board, Michael. It wasn't just Republicans, it was Democrats and independence were watching less sports because of this nuts And how much coverage did you see that?

Very little? And I'll tell you why, because most of the sports media is in favor of athletes being activists. They're in favor of sports leagues being activists. They're in favor of sports playing a role, uh in the political debate. So I mean, I think there's some some narrative building at work too, where you know what I mean, the sports media is going to cover something if it fits with their narrative, but they're not going to cover it if it doesn't. And certainly that study did not go

with their narrative. So are you still you You mentioned you you were at Rutgers. Are you still doing some stuff at Rutgers now? Or is that in the past. I'm not teaching uh this semester, but I've been an adjunct professor there for five years. Loved it, great school. I taught Multibedia Sports Reporting UM, which is basically I

think the only sports reporting anymore. You know, the idea of you know, people being segmented by media, you know, it doesn't exist anymore where you're just printed through, you're just radio, you're just you know, everybody does everything now. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, Yuh. I also what we have you I wanted to bring up the story and you you had some stuff I saw about this. Uh, the Athletic, which has been around for a few years now, has some

big time players in sports, you know, sports writing. Got some legendary figures there that right at the Athletic behind the paywall, and there was there's been some talk that they're gonna merge with Axios, the which I think of as a political operation. There is this bad news for the athletic or is this good news for the athletic

if they end up merging. I actually think it's it's good news for the athletic because you know, the Athletic, uh, you know went from being the place where everybody want to work, you know, two or three years ago to kind of you know struggling for the subscribers and you know they don't accept the add so you know, that's a whole huge stigin of money that's just turned off

U and newsletters right now with the hot thing. We're a newsletter company, you know, Front Office Sports has five newsletters, was born the way, and we are growing like a weed. So I mean, for them to link up with a company like that that is heading north, I think it's great for the athletic and it's great for journalism because I want to see journalists employed. It breaks my heart when I see folks losing their jobs, you know, because the corporate entities that manage them don't know what the

hell they're doing. So I mean, you know, to me, whatever is good for the athletic is good for the industry. But Michael, on that note, with what you have experienced, what you have done, and now what you see in today's world, do you think there are more or less qualified journalists in the sports market, Because it feels like to me, especially when it comes to a local level, that they're not necessarily journalists. They are just an extension of the pr machine of that team or that league. Yeah,

I think it's clearly less. Uh, you know, you can't lay off you know, thousands upon thousands of train qualified sports journalists over the last ten years and not having the impact on your business. I mean even just watching TV or going on websites. I'm saying basic mistakes that you never used to see. You know why is that? Well, who were the first people that got rid of a right? You know, if you worked in a newspaper or magazine like I did, you know you knew the copy editors.

They were usually you know, kind of weird, you know, kind of indio synchrome, you know, neurotic, introversial. You know, they studied you know, English folklore or something. But they would save your butt come crunch time, you know what I mean. They would find the mistakes, or they would ask the questions, or they would ride your ass, you know, to make sure you got it right. And when they took kind of you know, the first thing they wiped

out is that kind of safety layer. So I mean, I think that as much as anything else has hurt, you know, the quality of the product. Well that not only that, but also the influence from teams or from from professional leagues, because god forbid, you criticize a team a player, and they'll light you up, or they'll just want to allow you inside the locker room anymore, grant

you interview requests. I mean new York can get away with it because you got eighteen twenty people on a New York Yankees beat, you know, the Jets, the Giants, things of that nature. But there's not a lot of hard hitting markets out there anymore that allow their journalists to attack and to criticize and to critique the talent or the management. It's a great point. I mean, as the saw is of newspapers and their influence wings, you know,

the power of the league's and particularly teams increases. I see it really at the college level. Uh, you know, these college programs could free you out if coach doesn't like what you wrote. You know, and you know, and there's no respect anymore for that kind of line between what journalists have to do and what uh colleges and sports leagues have to do. So yeah, that that's a

real problem. What you need is people who are going to support you when that phone call comes from you know, the GM or the coach or the president of the school. You need somebody who's going to have your back, not somebody's gonna throw you under the bus, you know, Michael, just we gotta wrap this up. But I just following up that train of thought here, I know, I've done sports radio a long time, and I have noticed over the years when you're critical that there were people that

love that. Now, I feel like over the last like five ten years, I'm not sure when exactly it started. It's like many people can't handle They want you to only say nice things about the athletes they like and the players they like. It's a very odd change that has taken place. I don't know if you've noticed that, but I have. My theory is it's because of like MLB dot com NFL dot com. They get the watered down story. But it seems like many many younger fans

do not want negativity with their sports coverage. It's very odd to me. Have you noticed that at all? It is very odd. It's like, you know, you're supposed to be a cheerleader, which is the exact opposite of what being the journalist is. You know what I mean. You know you're supposed to be yeah, and you know, if somebody does something great, you know, do it. I mean, that's one of the things I've always respected about the NFL is the big boys and girls. When it comes

to this, you know you're gonna rip them. You're gonna criticize them, you know what I mean, they'll they'll take it and move on. But you're right, some of the smaller outfits are so uh, you know, sensitive to critics, schism, and you know they have these you know, fanboy basis on Twitter. You know what I mean? Would you move into action? You know what I mean before you know, be ratio. So yeah, I think I think it is a problem, but I think it's about the growing polarization

of the country. If you look at politics, we used to be able to talk as the country. We used to be able to come together. Now it's like you've got to pick a side and the other side of evil. Yeah, I completely agree, Michael Tremaneus. We could do like another hour and a half, but we'll let you go. And I appreciate that. And again, if you want to read more of Michael, it's Front Office Sports dot com and

how can people find you on Twitter? There, Michael, my handle is m McCarthy rent at Twitter, And uh, I appreciate the invite. I really enjoyed the conversation.