The Feed. When you lose your whole podcast and making sure that you don't. New updated character count on podcast descriptions in Apple Podcasts. Edison Research launches. Edison Download Matrix. Mac Whisper 12 is so good. Pocket Casts has a web player launching seasons out of order. Tips for keeping it clear. Be part of the podcast marketing trends report and download stats, this time geographic end user agents.
Hello, I'm Elsie Escobar, Director of Community and Content for Lipson, and this is Episode 289 of Lipson's The Feed, the podcast that takes it beyond how to podcast into keeping you pod... with podcasting tips and information for the everyday podcaster and taking you inside Libsyn now if you are starting a podcast or simply looking to find a new home for your podcast.
Use the code THEFEED, all one word, to get up to two months free. Okay, now if you want to be featured on the show, send in your 30 to 60-ish second promo. How do you do it, you? attach it to an email, and you send it over to thefeedatlipson.com. Now, if you don't have a promo, but you want your voice on the show, ask us a question or add to the conversation that you hear on an episode.
Send us your voice feedback. You can call us at 412-573-1934 or you can use SpeakPipe at speakpipe.com slash the feed. Now it is first come first serve. I usually just. Put everybody in the queue as I get the information from you. So if you want to be on sooner than later, get your stuff to me stat. And now on to our main conversation with Rob Walsh. VP of Podcaster Relations at Lipson, as well as my co-host, right after the first promo of the episode, Video Fuzzy.
Hi, I'm Terry J. Almond, host of VideoFuzzy, your source for media, commentary, and nostalgia. And in episode 100... I did a hundred episodes of something titled the bones, the witness protection. I talk about two, actually three meet cute episodes from bones in plain sight and human target that turned up in my collection. All from April of 2010.
My sister, everyone, plus cross connections, fond reflections, a deep dive on my classic collection, buy the numbers, and okay, from 100 episodes, I give you 100 clips. For all this and more, add, follow, and subscribe to VideoFuzzy wherever you get your podcasts. Happy viewing. Hello, Rob. Good generic time of the day, Elsie. How are you doing? Just peachy.
It's nice to have warmth. It's nice to have sunshine. I love it so much. Things are warming up in North Carolina. Yes, they are. They're lovely and sunny and... delicious. So I'm, I'm super thankful for it all. It's starting to warm up here in Nashville. We had a 75 day degree day the other day and some other warm ones coming. So it's nice.
Yeah, yes, that's exactly what happened yesterday. Not today, but yesterday. Oh, my gosh. All right. So we're going to start with finally being able to confirm something that we have. And I believe that I talked about this. I talked about it in episodes past. I just we didn't quite know the exact number of this. But with one of the updates to Apple Podcasts, we noted that.
All of our show notes for this episode were visible in Apple Podcasts because they used to be truncated. And that made me a little bit sad because... I'm a big fan of show notes. But now we asked what the spec is, and now it is 10 characters in the episode description. Right, Rob? 10,000 characters. Oh, sorry. 10,000. Yeah. Yes. 10,000 characters. And this count is inclusive of all markup you use too. So HTML tags.
and links that are not visible in the description, they do count towards that max length. And a nice birdie over at Apple sent us a little link that we'll have in the show notes to the... And if you scroll down and get to the item tags, which is episode tags, if you get into the episode description, it says, quote,
Description is text containing one or more sentences describing your episode. To potential listeners, you can specify up to 10,000 characters. You can use rich text formatting and some HTML if wrapped in a C data tag.
To include links in your description or rich text, adhere to the following technical guidelines and enclose all portions of your XML that contain embedded HTML and C data section to prevent formatting issues and to ensure... proper link functionality quote unquote from apple so thank you sir for sending the link over and and for answering that question that we were wondering what is the new limit the new limit is 10 000
characters, including all markup and formatting text, rich text. Yeah. So for those of you in just in case for things like us, meaning we have a ton of hyperlinked. So instead of thinking just the title of the article that is hyperlinked, you have to take into consideration the length of the link plus the...
code plus the title of the episode. So all of those things do count. So just for y'all to understand what that means. So anything that you see and don't see is counted towards that 10,000 characters. I think that 10,000 characters is a pretty decent amount. Yes. That's great. I don't foresee me going over that anytime soon.
And if I do want to go over something like that, it would be lovely to just have a link to whatever other thing. When you're more than that, you're really getting into the, is it a description or is it a transcript? That's right. And if you're going to do transcript, there's a...
transcript tag that Apple supports and Lipson supports and many other podcast hosts support. So you can do a transcript as a separate item for your listeners. So you don't have to put in, shouldn't put your transcript in your description. So now we're going to be talking about something that I did catch a little bit of a with conversations out there on social. And it is from a podcaster named.
the young God, Rod, the young God. And I'm going to go ahead and read his post because this post was sent via his email newsletter and it seemed like it was, well. And I'm just going to go ahead and read it. And then, Rob, I know that you've been in contact with him and we will discuss a little bit more after that. So this is what Young God said. Spotify deleted my podcast for no reason and without any warning whatsoever. On the 12th of March, 2025, at about 11 p.m.
I received an email from YouTube saying that they no longer had access to my podcast feed. Almost immediately, I checked my hosting provider, Spotify for creators, to find that I had lost access to my Spotify accounts on all devices. Without any warning or reason, efforts to retrieve them have proven unsuccessful. It's as if my account and podcast never existed. I have been informed that this is irreversible.
Fans of the show who listen on Spotify have reached out saying that they can't find my podcast. They're saved episodes and playlists all gone. The fans and I are both stunned by this development, and I deeply apologize for the interruption. At the moment, The Young God is unavailable on most podcast platforms except YouTube and Apple Podcasts.
New episodes can no longer be uploaded to those feeds, unfortunately. For seven years, I've hosted the podcast on Spotify for Creators. It used to be Anchor. And I've never had any issues until now. Seven years worth of content, reviews, data, and analytics, gone. 266 episodes worth of blood, sweat, and skill, gone. Access to over 30 million potential ears, gone. Just like that. My podcast no longer streaming on Spotify is a severe blow to my discoverability and marketing strategy. I have had...
a few days to come to terms with the erasure of my work. And after weighing my options, I'm convinced that all is not lost. The future of the show is currently in doubt, but this setback is an opportunity to explore new platforms, technologies, and strategies. To be a learner again, starting over is not the worst thing in the world. Besides, the show must go on.
To my loyal fans and community, thank you for your continued support and belief in my message and mission. We are in this together. Older episodes of the podcast will remain archived on YouTube, YouTube Music and Apple Podcasts. Once we find a new home, new... episodes will follow watch this space with love and audacity rob the young god so the young god was taken down by you know spotify for podcasters anchor not because of what was already live but
according to Rodney, because of titles of two upcoming episodes. And for full and full disclosure, I have been in contact with Rodney, the host, and offered him hosting with Libsyn. Let's just say this, 100%, that would not have happened at Libsyn. We definitely would not take down a show like that, not on our own and not even when people complain. And there are those running around with buckets of gasoline, for lack of a better analogy, looking for a match.
They complain about episodes of shows that sometimes are lucky to have 10 downloads per episode because they don't like something in the title, I guess. Clearly, it was not from listening to the shows because they don't have any listeners. Again, we believe very strongly in free speech. Now, I do want to say, free speech does have limits. When you promote violence, that crosses that line. That is what got Alex Jones kicked off of Apple Podcasts and wherever he was hosting at that time.
And if a podcaster said, we need to shoot or kill this person or group of people, that would cross the line, as would calls to, say, burn down Tesla chargers or vehicles. That crosses the free speech line, too. You cannot promote violence against people or companies. Note, that is not what is happening here with the Young God podcast. It was nothing like that at all. It really doesn't make a lot of sense from what Rodney said, you know, was the reason.
Now, I will say this. There is another reason you can get your podcast taken down. Music. You have to be careful about music. But in the case of when you get your podcast taken down for music, legally, how a DMCA takedown notice is supposed to work.
supposed to go, is the person sends a legal takedown notice, which includes them saying that they are either the copyright owner or authorized to work on behalf of the copyright owner. And under a penalty of perjury of law, they state that. And then they say that. someone is violating their copyright at which point the host has to take down the content at that point they have no option they have to take it down at that point after they take it down they then notify the host
of why it was taken down, give them the information about who requested it to be taken down. Then you notify the person that requested it take down and say that it's been taken down and the host has been notified. And then there's also a time where they can fight to bring it back.
you can always bring the show back what's really strange here is that whole irreversible he's saying that they can't bring the show back and that one is really confusing to me so it doesn't sound like from communication with them that they contacted him about take down. It just, they removed the show. It's just gone. So he didn't even learn about it from Spotify podcasters. He learned about it from YouTube contacting him saying this show wasn't available. So that was what was to me.
was very strange in all of this. It's unfortunate. And I think that a big lesson, and this is obviously not the first time this has happened to someone in the past, or maybe it's not even a takedown. Maybe you've... Maybe you took for granted that there was a count.
with all of your stuff in it and you hadn't checked in a long time. And then all of a sudden you realize that the account was lost. Sometimes emails don't arrive, you know, things like that. And you are not, you don't know when that's happening. All that to say. that it really is no one's responsibility but yours to keep a copy of your back catalog. And I think that this is obviously a very extra.
example of what could possibly happen. And like Rob mentioned, this is not this doesn't happen at Libsyn. But regardless, you need to have a copy of your own stuff. I know that there's times when. I have heard sadness from podcasters reaching out going like, do you happen? And this does happen over at Libsyn where people will come back after they close their account four years later and they're like.
Do you guys have a copy of my show that I did four years ago for whatever reason that they want to either get it started or just want to reminisce or they just want it for their own personal legacy? That's usually not what happens. Right. So if you do have. I just want to give a case that happened recently for Slate. Slate came back to me and asked if they could reopen an account that had been closed for many years.
If we still had those files because they didn't have them anymore. So it's not just indie podcasters. I forget about this. This happened with slate and we still had the file. So we reactivated the account and they were able to get them back. But yes, it just want to.
point out that this isn't just an indie podcaster thing. This sometimes happens with bigger organizations. Everybody should keep backups of every one of their episodes. Don't rely on us to do that because there is a limit of how long we'll keep files.
Yeah. And that's the thing. It's like, yeah, you could get lucky. It's like one of those things, you know, if you forget your wallet or you lose your pair of glasses and then you get lucky and they're still there or somebody turns it in. Right. And you're like, oh, my God. But then there's the other side where you never see it again. Right.
And part of that workflow that you need to have is I'm not saying for you to become incredibly obsessive about keeping every single file that you're putting out there, but at minimum, keep the raw file. minimum the raw file or the mp3 file. If you don't even want to keep the raw file, there are larger sizes. Keep your mp3 file.
I do feel that storage is a little bit more affordable nowadays, whether you want to have virtual storage for your stuff or you want to have just a hard drive with your things in it. That's fine. Open up a Notes app. and put a little note in there for yourself of where you're putting your stuff. And if you don't already have a backup of your old files, like stuff that you've done in the past. Start a little project for yourself of downloading your stuff from Libsyn or from your RSS feed.
And slowly start to keep a copy for yourself if you don't already have one, because you never know when you are going to need it. And I think the other aspect too is, I've been thinking about this. I don't remember where I put my Elsie's Yoga Class podcast classes. I believe they are in an external drive. I'm going to now try to go figure that out.
But I'm also going to be doing the same thing myself. I know that there's been times when I've thought like, oh, you know what? I really would love to. run some audio post-production on some of these episodes or just snip out certain parts of them because I feel those are maybe better classes or it's a historical context that I'd like to add to.
something else that I'm doing. And I'm sort of bummed that I don't really have access to those raw files, right? To be able to like think about this is the first time that I recorded my thing. This is what it sounded like and that kind of stuff. This is your time to put that in as a task that you do on a day that you're not really doing much to anything else. It's kind of brainless. Download your stuff, upload your stuff, save your stuff to an external hard drive.
And keep it for yourself. Because this would suck. 266 episodes. I certainly hope. Again, like I was telling Raul, I'm like, I hope that he has. I hope. I don't know. But, you know, even if he has the files. Then there's the metadata. There's the titles and descriptions having to redo all that. You know, we've talked in the past about service that's out there where you can download your XML file.
and get at least some of the information out of your XML file. So you may want to look at doing that because at least having that in a spreadsheet will save you some time. And that is scooterlabs.com slash hacks. And we'll have a link in the show note for that. But, you know, every now and then just go and pull down from your RSS feed.
Everything in a CSV, because, you know, even with the backup of your files, it'd still be nice to have some of the metadata available. So if you have to reconstitute your XML file, you'll have all the information there as well. it's just something I think all of us need to keep for ourselves and think through a lot of this stuff there's a lot of us that I have seen that have
maybe stop podcasting and you're kind of done with it in a good way, not in the sense that you're giving up, but you're just, it's over. It's your podcast. It's time to close it down. And if that's the case, you can close down your podcast. Just make sure that you... Download your files, the XML files, the metadata, and stick it in a box, right? Because just like what Rob mentioned, sometimes things come back. Two years later, you might be like, oh, I'm ready to get back on.
Again, I'm ready or I'm ready to show this to my kids or I'm ready to upload this to my own personal website and have sort of like an archival. copy of a website now that I want to build out. I'm ready to repurpose my work into something else. and you don't have those original files, it would be great to just already know where they are. They're in your little virtual box or real box somewhere in there where you have that stuff for yourself for reference. All right, and then now...
We're talking about, oh, my God, Rob, more podcasting and presidential elections of it all starting so early, Rob, so early. Yeah, I mean, we talked about this. You know, we said it was going to be central in the next presidential election in the U.S. And Governor Newsom, California, is not waiting. He just launched his own podcast. And here is the start of the description. I won't read the whole one, but I'll just read the first blurb of the description. Quote, I'm Gavin Newsom.
And it's time to have a conversation. It's time to have honest discussions with people that agree and disagree with us. And the podcast is called This is Gavin Newsom, and we'll have a link to it in the show notes. And kudos to him and his team. They actually seem to be getting it. I mean, Governor Newsom's getting it with what he's done with this podcast. He started the show. These were his first three guests, Charlie Kirk, Michael Savage, and Steve Bannon.
Those are all very far-right-leaning people. But then his latest episode is Governor Tim Walz. So, yes, it's okay. to talk to folks from both sides of the political spectrum. And that needs to be done. More people need to do this. Again, kudos to his podcast team, which clearly is not the same podcast team that Kamala Harris used.
And by the way, Governor Shapiro, this is one you should be looking at as a guide on getting your own podcast launch. Just saying. And should anyone else that plans to throw their hat into the ring of the 2028? presidential ring you need to be looking at what governor newsom's doing i think right now kudos on the podcast side he for 2028 is leading the pack on both sides right now for what to do on podcasting i was
very encouraged by the fact that he's going to have both sides in the conversation. And I think that is a big issue in politics. society in the U.S. right now. People are not willing to talk to people on the other side. They'll instantly call them Nazis. And people will call Joe Rogan a Nazi and they'll call Elon Musk a Nazi. But a couple of years ago, these people were on the left.
And it's wrong. An example of how wrong this is, someone did a couple of quotes from JFK and got called a Nazi. Let that sink in for a minute. Okay. And which, by the way... JFK podcast files have been launched. So the first episode's up in life. All right. So there we go. All right. But now what my question to you, Rob, is, yes, he's doing all of this stuff. And I agree. I agree with everything you said.
Do you think that it would have the, I know I'm going to poke the bear. Do you think that it would have as much of an impact if he had an audio only podcast? You know, I don't know. We'd love to know what the numbers are between what his audio and video is, but obviously we don't know. I think that's the bottom line. But yeah, continue. Sorry. I mean, he's a big name, right? And for big names. And we've said this before.
For some people, having the video, it's going to do well on YouTube. And I didn't look to see what his YouTube numbers were for anything. And it's on iHeart. iHeart's on PodTrack, so we'll... be able to see the numbers. If the numbers shoot up, usually it will go up. You know, I can look and see if this podcast has a pod track tracker, but... Let's see if his feed. So his podcast is called This is Gavin Newsom. So let's see. Oh, so it's hosted on Omni. And let's see. We'll look in his feed.
So his feed does have Patrick Ranker, which means if it breaks into the top 30 in the news section, we'll know and we'll have an idea of how big this podcast is. And if it gets into the big numbers, which, by the way, Midas Touch does. Based on its numbers, it was not even in the top 15 of news podcasts. So just take those reports about Midas Touch being number one for the big, big, big grand assault. But we'll see where this comes in.
Again, I just, regardless of where it winds up ranking, I'm just really encouraged by the format that he's using and the attitude that he's taking with the podcast and how he's doing it and that he's not only going to interview people from the left. I mean, he comes out day one, first episode, Charlie Kirk, and then the next one, Dr. Michael Savage, and then...
I mean, wow. I mean, OK, that was not who I would have put on my bingo card for guests for Gavin Newsom podcast. None of them. Right. I wouldn't have guessed them at all. Tim Waltz. Yeah, I would have had him on the bingo card. But the fact that he's. reaching across the political spectrum, one shows he's absolutely running for president. You can start registering domain names now around Newsom 28.
and versions thereof if you want to domain sit or get hats made up. But yes, he's clearly running for president, but I just love... what he's doing with the podcast. So kudos to his team and him. Whoever is advising him, I'd love to know who you are because you're doing a good job. And it will be really interesting to see how it plays because, again, the reach that he's getting and the...
the level of coverage that he's getting on media is because of the video part of it, right? Because that's what's on the news. That's what's being shown. That's what's pushed forward. That's what's being shared. I wonder, you know, what would happen? If there was a podcast that was this big of a name with no video and it was being covered, how would they do it? Because even news organizations, the way that it's being shared on TikTok and things like that.
It's all video. It's all the video portion. And it becomes that wonderful marketing side of it all. If it's just the audio, it's still a challenge to be able to just share that and have people just be like, here, I'll just click this link. They're used to clicking the YouTube stuff. All right. So let's move into Podcast News Daily. And I'm going to read a quote.
from this, Rob. Melissa, Melissa, I don't remember how to say your last name, so I'm going to try, but I forgot to ask you. Melissa Quiche, Edison Senior VP and podcasting lead said, quote, We see this as the next step in Edison Research's effort to provide data to the podcasting industry worldwide that helps bring more advertising dollars into the space.
While our survey of 20,000 podcast listeners each year provides the most complete look at the totality of actual listening to all podcasts in the U.S., our new download counting service powered by Soundstack's industry-leading tech will provide deeper information to subscribers, especially for smaller and short-run shows. And this is per Edison launching their own podcast ranking tracking method. I'm assuming it's going to be a prefix similar to PodTrack and PodScribe and others.
Don't have technical information yet on this, but they said they're launching and they already have one partner that's using it. And they said it's IAB V 2.2 certified using some sound stack. Which, there was one thing that was confusing was they were saying, well, you know, we're using Soundstack Tech and their certification, but if it's a prefix, yeah, I don't know how that works, but we'll find out here.
Shortly when this comes out, I'm sure they will be in touch with us at some point to get approved. But at this point, they have not reached out to us that I'm aware of to ask to get their prefix approved. So we have to go through a privacy. audit with them before we can approve any prefix. All right. Well, congrats to Edison. And I'm going to keep mentioning this, guys, because everybody needs to know all the things. This would be more server-side data.
when they do their surveys, which is not. So that's great because then we're getting both. Again, both is always great. Okay, now moving on to... Mac Whisper, Rob, Mac Whisper 12 delivers the most requested feature to the leading AI transcription app. This is from 9 to 5 Mac, right? And quote, if you're a pro user and you use the WhisperKit model for the managed model screen, the app will now automatically group your transcript by speaker. Great for interviews and podcasts. And later this week.
It will also work for batch and meeting recordings, end quote. Oh, my God, Rob. Rob, do you have back whisper? Yes, I do. I do have it. This was exciting. I got the email from them saying, hey, this is available now. I have not.
tested it out. I have not tried it yet, but it is available for any Mac Whisperer users or people that are interested in this. And the beauty of this is, again, it works on your computer to do the transcription. And it's a nice app. And there's a free version, of course. Yeah. I have to, I want to see if I can find how much it is to tell you guys because I do have it. I did test it really quick yesterday, by the way. So Mac Whisper Pro is 59 pounds for personal use. And then...
£199 for five licenses pro. I'm not sure exactly what that means. So I do, I have the pro version. I paid for the pro version way back when it wasn't pro at all. It was just free. And I really quickly just grabbed Rob. I opened that thing up. I saw the thing. I was like, let's download the newest one. I happen to have an MP3 of the feed on the computer and I shoved it in there.
And this is what happened. So I was with my kid. She was at an appointment. I started to transcribe it. You know, the feed is like over an hour long. So it started to do its thing. I was doing my work because it was doing going in the background, completely forgot about it. My kid came out. I closed the computer. I was like, oh, no. And it kind of kept going. I mean, it kept going in the sense that it didn't crash. It wasn't connected to the internet.
It was really lovely that I messed all the things up and it still did it. So there was a little bit of a hiccup at the beginning of the transcription that it had. So it wasn't perfect. By the way, it's still in beta. So they haven't released this portion of it. He's still testing it out. But outside of that, it was great. It was really great.
It is super easy to name the speakers. Once I figured it out, like I didn't read any instructions. I just started to look through all the settings on the side. Very clean way to. So you just started clicking and clicking on things.
Exactly. Pounding on buttons and clicking on things until it worked. Totally. I figured it out, right? That's how most of us work. We don't want to read instructions. No. We just want to click on things and pound on keys until it works. And if it does work, that's great news. Most transcription services have a very hard time with our show, Rob. Not because we are not clear, but because we happen to have a lot of voices on the show and they pop in.
here and there when we do our promos and our audio feedback. And a lot of transcription services kind of have a really hard time because sometimes they will mix the speakers. Every male voice is clumped together. So all male voices are Robs. All female voices are Elsie. They don't really outline that too well. This did a fantastic job with it all. It was very easy to rename.
everybody's voice is in there. And it's also connected to LLMs in there, right? So they have an AI portion of it. You can connect, I think up to, not up to 10, but the option to connect. 10 different models or so, that's what it looked like to me, is there also. And you can adjust the prompts. So you can very easily... With just this, be able to quickly give it a prompt, like summarize this or find that or whatever.
and have it spit out something else for you that you want. You can also, there's a built-in translation service. So if you want to translate your entire whatever into a different language. You can do it directly from Mac Whisper, which is so great. And another thing that I loved so much is the information about the file.
which I just thought was so cool. I've never seen this before. So I went into the little eye inside of the Mac Whisper thing, and it tells you how many minutes each one of us spoke. And how many words we spoke, which is kind of cool, just geeky, because when are we going to use that? But I kind of really liked seeing all this like metadata behind the scenes.
You can also export. The export features are you can very much focus on the written word. So you can export the transcript itself into a variety of different ways to export it out. Right. Everything from docs to PDFs to. plain text to rich text and all of that.
And you can also do the whole subtitle thing. So you can have SRT files, VTT files, and another one that I can't remember off the top of my head right now. Those are the only two you need to worry about. SRT and VTT. That's it. That's all you need to know. Those are the two that Apple's... support everything else is irrelevant yeah so they have all of those things
You can also format your transcript if you are going to be using it visually and or for a PDF or if you're going to do a blog post on it or whatever reference. There's a little thing there where you can... put a little check mark and you can format it with speaker names or without speaker names, with time codes or without time codes. You could do one liner things. You could do it in segment versions.
And that means that on the left-hand side, you have the name on the left and the written stuff, everything is on the right. Or you can have it like a paragraph form where it's like, you know, Rob and then... a paragraph of the things you said, and then Elsie in a paragraph of the things I said. You could format it that way too. It's just a fantastic app, you guys. It finally did it because this was the only thing that I was looking for because I obviously...
I have co-hosted shows and I record a lot of meetings also. And not being able to have who said what was really challenging for me in using this. I used it a lot. if I was recording myself, but I haven't used it for meetings and things like that because, again, I didn't get the speaker. So I'm over the moon. Love it.
So worth the 59, or actually it's probably a lot more money in dollars. Probably what, 67? I don't know. I'm doing the math on my head. I don't even know what the change is. I don't know what the current pound to dollar. Yeah. So it's more than 59. So, but still super worth it. And I don't think that I paid.
that much right out of the gate because I've been using it for so long. So I incrementally will upgrade to the pro version, but I never paid what it's, but it absolutely is worth the time, by the way. I mean, the money. So worth the money. We'll have a link to the 9to5Mac article on this in the show notes, and then you can go from there and you can get to the website for Whisper. Yep, absolutely.
So you've got an article here, something new from Pocket Casts? Yeah, so Pocket Casts now, just another little bit of news, Pocket Casts now has a web player, and it's for free. So you don't have to pay for Pocket Casts to use it, right? You do have to kind of sign up if you want to play with the web player.
And to look at the sort of, in quote, directory in there for the podcast and whatnot. So you do have to have an account, which makes sense because most of us want to know what we're listening to and we want to go back to our podcasts.
instead of having to search for them all the time. So that's just another option for those of you who, I'm sure those of you who already have Pocket Cast are enjoying this, but if you don't have Pocket Cast and you kind of want to play around or listen to podcasts when you're on your computer. This is an option, and I would suggest maybe you guys go check it out, see what the user experience is. That would be amazing. And speaking of different voices on the show.
Here we go. Let's see how it does. Let's go ahead and get audio feedback. Hi, Rob and Elsie. Love the show. This is Darren Marler from the Weird Darkness podcast, where I share true stories of everything strange and macabre. You were mentioning in your last program about YouTube versus podcasting when it comes to income and what the percentage was.
And I had not really looked into that. So thank you for bringing that up because I looked it up. And it turns out I'm making about 3% of my income on YouTube. And the rest is coming from the podcast. So, yeah, I'm on YouTube as well. And it's interesting because I do spend a lot of time there. There's a lot more interaction with people as compared to the podcast. But if you're just looking at the monetary value, it's negligible.
Thanks a lot. Really appreciate you guys. And we'll see you back on the show. If you want to find me, just go to WeirdDarkness.com. Thank you, WeirdDarkness.com. Well, you know, it's interesting. He said that he realized only 3% of his income comes from YouTube, where when I've been looking at numbers, I've been saying most podcasters are lucky to get about 2% of their...
downloads over on YouTube. So it kind of matches up to what we see overall for podcasts that, you know, if you get to 2% or 5%, you're really, really lucky of your consumption over on YouTube for most. podcasters that are audio first. Right. And there was other people talking about, you know, there was a post that went out around where people were trying to go to video and monetize over on Spotify and they were actually losing money.
Oh, really? They were getting less money. Yes. So when they actually started adding video on Spotify, they wound up making less money than they were before from the ads that they were getting direct from the audio. So there was, I think, Amanda. From Multitude had a post about that and how it was not a good thing for them. Oh, that's right. I did see that. And if I can find it.
I will put a link in the show notes there for you guys so that you could see. It was a LinkedIn post. It was a very good post. Yeah, it was very cool. But just pointing out that sometimes audio is... Still a good place to get your monetization, folks. Just something we've been talking about here. Audio is still okay. Yeah, absolutely. All right. And now here's an email.
Hi, Rob. Our team is ready to launch a bunch more episodes on Libsyn for our podcast and Season 2 of said podcast will follow shortly thereafter. There's a small chance episodes from Season 1 will launch after the launch of Season 2. We know that... We can add a season designation in the episode upload, but want to triple confirm that if for whatever reason the episodes are launched out of order, that.
To the other user on the various platforms, it will be crystal clear which episodes will belong to which seasons. If standard season categorization isn't common in platforms, would you recommend amending episode titles to show season slash episode numbers, holding off launching season two until season one is complete? Regards, NR.
Okay, so a little strange request. Most people usually finish one season before launching the next. But we do support all the season and episode tags. We would recommend that you also pick a publishing date. in the past for any season one episodes that fit where they should have gone. Our system lets you pick any daytime in the past or future. There are some aggregator apps that will ignore the season number and episode number tags. Matter of fact, most will probably ignore them.
and just display in chronological order. Hence, our recommendation to pick a date in the past that works for season one episodes. Make sure that they're all chronologically in the right place. Do not pick the exact same date and time for any two episodes. Always pick something unique and in the order you want them. I mean, they can be one minute apart, but still have them slightly different. And yes, big yes.
for adding something in the title of the episode, also letting people know what season episode it is, like S1-E01, S1-E02, S1-E03.
and so on, as the beginning of the title for each episode is highly recommended. So visually, you can see it there. Again, most aggregator apps, and there's a lot of them when we talk about that, maybe in this episode, there's a lot of... aggregator apps out there and most of them aren't going to support the episode tag now obviously the majority of consumption happens on apple podcast and they do support those
season and episode tags which you absolutely should use as well so you're going to be doing both and you can ignore the s1-e01 and the s1-e02 in the apple title but have it in the main podcast title. So in Libsyn, you have both the main title for the episode and the Apple podcast title. So the Apple podcast title, don't put in S1-E01 because you've got the tags. It's already covered.
But in the main title, which will be used by most of the apps out there, do put in S1-E01, S1-E02, and so on, with the full title coming after that. There you go. And they were... I sent that off to them and they were happy and understood. No, it makes absolute sense. And I think that one of the, even though it was such a kind of like a very inside baseball sort of question, and you did mention that, you know, he's already thinking ahead.
I think that this is great. This is the kind of things a lot of people don't think about. And then later on, they're like, wait, this is creating a problem for the end user. Right. Because what happens is when you start it off and you think like. How are people going to find that this is the way that you're supposed to listen to this is not something people tend to think about. I did wonder why they would have a season one episode after season two launched.
And the seasons are covering two completely different topics. And what they said is they may need to go back to season one and add in some episodes to clarify as new information comes in on the topic they were covering. Yep, that totally makes sense. To me, then it started clicking in my head. Oh, my God, if you're doing a true crime podcast and season one is about this murder and season two is about that murder. At some point in the future.
Season one you're covering, maybe something new comes out. There's a trial. Someone gets acquitted. You want to add an episode back to season one because that's what covered that murder. To me, oh, wow, that makes a lot more sense why you would need to go back and do this. But still, I would chronologically put it back in the older order if you want them to show in most apps in the right place. It makes sense, though.
Very smart question. And on that note, we have some audio feedback from Cheryl. Hey, Elsie and Rob. It's Cheryl from the Hearts of Gold podcast. I opened my podcast app and I was shocked to find three episodes of the feed waiting for me. It must have been because I was on vacation. I can't remember the last time I didn't listen within 42 to 78 hours of release.
And I have so much feedback. First, on YouTube and podcasts, it's frustrating when a show calls itself a podcast, but only releases on YouTube without an RSS feed. That's a YouTube show, not a podcast. I listen in Overcast while walking and doing other things, not on YouTube. So I really appreciated that discussion. I also love the breakdown of surveys versus metrics. It's something I'll keep in mind when reading articles going forward. A couple of shout outs.
Kristen from Manic Mommies has a new podcast. OMG, I listened to her for years ago. And even though I'm not a big biker, I am excited to check out her new podcast. And Rob? I subscribe to the JFK podcast, so if you release an episode, you've got a listener. This is why people should submit promos. You never know who will hear and subscribe. Elsie, I'm thrilled you're all in on Overcast.
And, Rob, a question for you. I record video while podcasting, and my background has shelves with Girl Scout and other memorabilia. I don't think it's too much, but I'd love your feedback if you check out one of my videos on... Cheryl M. Robinson on YouTube. Oh, and Elsie, the Sofa app. Yes, I've been using separate apps to track books, movies, and TV, and now I can do it all in one. Love it. And Rob?
I heard you. Three episodes in a row about FTP. If I ever need to update an episode, I know what to do. Thanks for everything you do for podcasting community. I always learn something new from your episodes. and truly appreciate your work. So this was super speed, multiple episode feedback. Have a great day. Wow, that was like...
That was she did really good considering she gave us feedback for three episodes. And we'll have a link to Cheryl's YouTube channel so you can see. And when she asked about her. video background. She was talking because we had talked about how cluttered Dr. Mark Hyman's background was. Her background, and here's a picture for you, Elsie, is very clean. It is very clean. It's very nice. Thumbs up. Good job.
Much better background than anything I do when I go on video. Hey, listen, backgrounds are complicated. That's all I have to say. That said, I'm still loving the Sofa app. Love it overall just because I like to. know what I'm doing when I'm doing it and whatnot. So I'm keen on that and I will keep you guys updated if anything changes. Anyway, here is another email.
Hi, Rob. I'm trying to find an accurate representation of the number of directories Libsyn pushes out for a show. Would you be able to help me with this? Thanks in advance to bringing some clarity. Regards, NR. Hi, NR. We at Lipsyn have direct connections to submit to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, iHeartRadio, Odyssey, Deezer, Amazon Music slash Audible. Ghana, Player FM, GeoSavon, Boomplay, and SoundCloud. Note, getting into Apple Podcasts then gets you into over 400 plus other.
podcast apps and directories worldwide that pull from Apple's public API for their directories. Now, getting into Apple Podcasts, that's what's going to get you into Overcast, CastBox, Podcast Addict. And again, over 400 other apps directories. Now, if you push me to list the 400 plus apps, I would likely send a list of around 150. There are a large number of language-specific aggregator apps that I have not written down.
So if I need to put it in writing, I would say 150 plus apps slash directories. But in reality, it's over 400 apps directories. I just want to clarify that because I think that might be... the different numbers you may have heard of. So that might confuse her because sometimes I've said 150, sometimes I'll say 400. That 400 number is from a couple of years ago.
when I did a combo of looking at the user agent requests that were coming in for podcasts and figuring out what they were, and then going through the iOS app store in different countries to see what I could find. That all said, I was like, you know, I'm going to go ask Grok. So I asked Grok, quote, how many different podcast aggregator apps are there worldwide, including ones for specific languages? Unquote.
And Grok said this, quote, and I'm just going to do my voice. I'm not going to try to imitate Grok because I don't know what Grok sounds like. Factoring in the diversity of 7,000 plus languages spoken globally, not all have dedicated podcast apps, but... Major languages, example the top 20 to 30 by speaker population, often do, either as standalone apps or through multilingual support in larger platforms.
Industry analysis suggests there are thousands of podcast-related apps when including hosting platforms, players, and aggregators, but aggregators specifically are a subset. Based on this, a reasonable estimate would place the number of podcast aggregator apps worldwide, including language-specific ones, between 200 and 500. This range accounts for the mainstream apps, 50 to 100.
regional specific ones, 100 to 300, and emerging or niche players. Without exhaustive global data, this remains an educated guess. The true number could be higher if... Every smaller scale and hyper local app is counted, but it's unlikely to exceed 1000 given market consolidation trends and the dominance of major platforms, unquote. So all of this to say.
Getting into Apple Podcasts is going to get you into over 400 different podcast aggregator apps worldwide. Thanks, Scott, for the sanity check, and thanks NR for the question. You might say, well, why is there 150 sometimes and 400 the other time? Sometimes people want to go back to their company and say, hey, we're in these big number of ones, right? And they want a big number to justify it.
And so that'll be the 400 number. And sometimes a company will say, I need to know specifically how many there are. We want to audit that. And then I'll go, OK, then it's 150. I really believe it's 400 plus. I just haven't taken the time. to write them all down so that I could send that out. And Grok thinks it's 200 to 500, or up to even 1,000. So I think the 400 number is a safe number to say. Using all the things and finding all the information. Woo-hoo!
I get this a lot from the pro customers because a lot of times they're trying to justify their podcast internally. And they're just looking for anything to make it sound like podcasting is bigger and they're getting out to more places to justify. their salary if they're producing the podcast or the cost that they're incurring. So they'll tell me, they'll say in the email, make the number as big as possible. What can you justify?
Yeah. Right. And so that's where the 400, I was like, well, I can, I can really, you know, if I had to get in court and say, you know, here, you know, here it is, you know, if I had to, the 400 number, I can say, here's why, here's where it comes from. But if you want to tie me down and say, oh, give me a list, I'm going to stay at 150 because honestly, it'll take a long time to get to the 400 and figuring them out because not only are some of those apps in different languages.
It's in different script. It's in Hindi, which I can't read. And so it's hard for me to figure out what is the name of that app. It would be somebody's project that at least begins, gets to the core. amount, maybe like 80% of them done. And then it would require management on going forward, right? It's somebody's job then to remove and update.
Right. We talked about on recent episode about the 20 something plus that are dead. Right. How many of that 400 are dead? Absolutely. Just because. Right. So and there's always new ones coming in. There's always somebody that goes. someone gets a bee in their bonnet and goes, I'm going to, my business model is I'm going to launch a podcast aggregator app and I'm going to make money. That's my day. That's going to quit my day job. I'm making a podcast aggregator app.
And like I always give that story where I was at one of the podcast movements and someone came up and said to me that they were going to launch a podcast app. And I laughed because I thought they were joking. I thought they were being funny and they were being serious. And I was like, oh. You're serious? I thought you were joking. Sorry. It's not a good business model launching an aggregator app. Just want to point that out. But there's a lot of them. So switching from some data.
To other data that we're also wanting to get, I'm not sure. You guys, we've talked about this report in the past, and Rob and I have had this in our show notes for such a long time, and I kind of want to give it... It's due, but I'm not sure we have time to do it this time. We may push it off either to next episode or the following episode. But it's the Podcast Marketing Trends Report. I'm going to have a link in the show notes so that you all can look at the podcast marketing trends of 2024.
That report is really trying to answer a big question that podcasters have all the time, which we get what actually contributes to podcast growth. Right. Everybody wants to know how to grow your podcast. It's one of the key questions that we get here at Libsyn. It's one of the key questions that people asked over for many, many years. And that she podcast. It's something that I see all the time. on social media still.
And there are many, many people who can actually give you answers as to these are the actions that you take. These are the strategies that you can take. But what we don't really get too much of is whether or not what everybody is doing is actually working. So last year, the report surveyed over 500 podcasters with a collective 2 billion downloads and 28...
thousand plus episodes between them all. And there's all kinds of amazing data that I'd love to get deeper into, but we're not going to be doing it into this episode. But again, you can check out that data for sure in the podcast marketing.
Trends report. But let me just outline here that one of the key things that I really love about the report is that The way that Jeremy Enns, who is the one who actually puts it together, is that he started to be able to present the data in the way that they split the shows. of high versus low growth and also big versus small, meaning in terms of the download of it all. Because when you fill out this report, you actually do put in a lot of information that is...
Not often shared, which is your personal data. And again, it's all private. So it's not like you're going like, this is my podcast and this is how many downloads per episode. Like you don't know who's putting the information in there. But I do trust that a lot of the people who are sharing their information are sharing it transparently because they want to get more data for themselves, right?
The way that people have participated from way huge network type shows that are have lots of magical downloads to those of us who are. And the smaller, more niche shows that don't have too many downloads, those are all counted. inside of this, which is fantastic. And what was really cool is that the average year of experience for people who submitted their stuff in there was 3.5 years, which is again, really great. It's not just the newbies, it's the people who've been around.
Now, that said, the reason I'm bringing this up right now is because the new 2025 Podcast Marketing Trends Report is happening right now, meaning you can be part of it. And if you're listening to this and you are curious or want to have your show be counted as part of this survey,
please fill out the survey. There's going to be a link in the show notes for you to fill it out. It's not a quick survey. So you have to do your due diligence in getting the information into the report itself. And Jeremy does a phenomenal.
job at putting this data together. Again, check out 2024 and put your name into this one. Now, this is what he said about the 2025 report, quote, The past two reports uncovered a number of fascinating insights and clarified a lot of suspicions related to marketing benchmarks that many folks in podcasting had suspected for a long time, but had no solid data to back up.
said Jeremy Enns, the founder of Podcast Marketing Academy, who's organizing their report. But over the past 12 to 18 months, podcasting has been through some major shakeups, including iOS. cratering many shows' download numbers, YouTube emerging as the dominant podcast consumption platform, Spotify introducing more algorithmic discovery tools, and a general lack of clarity about what podcasts even are anymore. In short...
Podcasting is changing fast and the top creators are changing their approach along with it. Why not learn from them, identify the trends and opportunities that are working now and help all creators apply them to their own shows, end quote. So this isn't necessarily trying to give you answers based on what the narrative is out there or anything like that. It really is requiring us, who are podcasters, to put in our information so we are counted.
I see this more of as a census report than like a trend as in like YouTube is the largest channel. Like we want to talk to the people who are actually doing the thing. So again, please put your name in this or. Fill it out. Not your name. You don't have to put your name. Oh, and there's prices involved, which of course skews the, as you know, Rob, we talk about this all the time, which survey data is really self-selected in people who are putting their information in there.
And being able to get people who are very diverse in their content, size, production value, years in and all of that stuff is is challenged to get people to put their stuff in there. But if you want to be counted, please put your stuff in there. It does matter. And you matter. And it doesn't matter how big or small your show is or how long you've been doing this or haven't been doing is. Just fill it out.
That's my pitch for that. Again, link will be in the show notes. Please fill this out. And if you don't have time right now, make a task list thing to do it this weekend, okay? Just put it in there. Oh, and do it before March 28th, which is the deadline, deadline, deadline. March 28th, which is you have three more days. Three more days to do it. So maybe not the weekend. Maybe tomorrow. After you listen to this episode. Snap, snap. Get on it.
Get on it. Get on it. OK, so, Rob, where are we going now? Shall we going to promo number two? Yes. I'm a good friend. OK, so promo number two. Is this our first promo for an entire network, Rob? Let's go. Hey, Rob and Elsie, this is Martin here. I don't think you guys know.
But we have been with you for over 10 years now. It all started with Tomorrow's Legends, who is coming up on their 320th episode. It all began with coverage of Legends of Tomorrow. And then we moved on to Stargirl and Superman alone. and The Flash, then Jupiter's Legacy, then The Tomorrow People, and then X-Men 97, and we are currently covering the old Justice League cartoon. So if you are into superhero TV and you want to listen to in-depth reviews and coverage of each episode,
Check out tomorrow's Legends. Then we move on to The Mandalore, which is now at 160 episodes, and The Mandalore talks about all the Star Wars stuff on Disney+. We began with The Mandalorian, and then we moved into Clone Wars, and The Bad Batch, and Bookable Effect, and...
Obi-Wan Kenobi and Andor, Ahsoka, Tales of the Jedi, Tales of the Empire, the Acolyte, and we just finished Skeleton Crew, and we are eagerly awaiting Andor Season 2. New to the network is our friends over at Dive Into DC, and they're coming up on Saturday. episodes themselves and they talk about everything in the dc universe comics movies shows news you name it they cover it and then of course the namesake of the network cybercast and smr the cyber movie review
They talk about various topics like time travel and ghost stories and Greek mythology, what TV shows to watch, what ones to avoid, and then movie reviews. And that is mostly just me, but I do have many guests on from time to time to talk about all those various topics. So over 600 episodes of content and entertainment on the Cybercast network of shows. Check one of them out and we would love to hear from you guys during our very popular feedback sections.
Congratulations, Cybercast Network, on over 600 episodes and content. That's amazing. Woohoo! Congrats. Yay! And now we're going to get into some stats, and these are... Measured stats, not surveys. So first up this week is country breakdowns for February per downloads geographically from all sources and U.S. 59.4%, Canada 5.4%. UK, 5.2%. Australia, 3.5%. Germany, 2.8%. Sweden, 2.2%. Spain, 1.2%. India, 1.2%.
And Japan, 1%. That's everybody over 1%. Then rounding out the top 20, Netherlands, Switzerland, Denmark, Mexico, France, China, South Africa, Brazil, Colombia, Poland, and New Zealand. So for February, we had Columbia back into the top 20. And between February and January, those with changes greater than 0.2% was the U.S. dropping from 60.3 to 59.4 and Switzerland going from 0.5 to 0.9%.
Of course, check your stats and see how you measure up to these numbers for February. And now, per user agent information, And this is for February. It costs all shows globally hosting on Libsyn and Libsyn Pro for IAB stats. Mobile downloads were at 86.9% of all downloads going direct to mobile devices. This is down a bit from January's 87.39. Computer downloads were up a bit to 12.67%, and home voice attendance plus set-top boxes were holding steady right at around 0.43% in February.
The iOS to Android ratio in February was 3.52 to 1, which is down a smidge from January's 3.56 to 1 ratio. Mobile aggregator apps, not from Spotify or from Apple, in February were 10.85% of all downloads, all the aggregator apps combined. And the big dog in aggregator apps is still... Apple with Apple podcast app, iTunes, and the Apple ecosystem coming in at 48.4% of all downloads for February. Number two in February was Spotify at 21.4. Overcast, number three at 2.8.
Number four was Pocket Cast at 1.8%. Number five, iHeartRadio at 1.1%. That's everyone 1% or greater. Those under 1%. but greater than 0.3%, kind of the tier two, would be Podbean, Amazon Music, CastBox, Podcast Addict, AntennaPod, and Player FM. And then we get into the third tier, and this is followed by those... between 0.2% and 0.02%. In order, they are Evox, Downcast, Pandora, TuneIn Radio, PodMO, Fountain, SiriusXM, the Android app, Deezer, Podcast Guru.
Playdeocast, BeyondPod, Podcaster, Castro, RSBN, RSS Radio, Real Life App Android, Snipped. Air, Podcatcher, Axios, Dogcatcher, Podverse, and Mixerbox. And then many more that come in at less than 0.02% don't really mention yet the Tier 4s. And that's the majority of that 400+. Again. Those were based on IAB numbers. Outside of aggregator apps, there were browsers. Firefox and other came in at 8.9%, Chrome at 2.2%. Overall, all browsers combined for about 11% of downloads in February.
So there are measured stats, server-side stats for you from Lipson, Lipson Pro. Next up is where have we been? And I just did a recording, but it's not live. It won't be live to April, but I didn't have anything go live. in the last two weeks, although I should have had something go live, but the person didn't email me the link so they don't get mentioned. Lord! Me the link.
Goodness gracious. Tell me you went live and went live. It was supposed to go live. But, you know, folks, if you interview somebody, send them a link. Let them know. I'm happy, more than happy to promote it and promote it here, promote it on social media. Ask Elsie to promote it on social media, on the Lipson channel. So, yeah, make sure you have every guest. You send them info. OK, but we do have we're going somewhere, though. We're going to podcast movement evolutions.
And we have so many sessions from the Libsyn team there. We are starting off on Tuesday, April 1st with audience targeting campaigns, podcast versus streaming. And that is with Brooke Collins and Karen White from Libsyn. and ads. That same day, uncensored podcast advertising questions you're too afraid to ask buyers. And that's a panel led by Anthony Civelli and Steven Pickens. And it features Bart Roselli, Taylor Bradbury and Adam McNeil.
Then unlocking YouTube analytics for podcast success. That's what Steven Pearlstein. Then we have skate to where the puck is going to be. Don't miss out on Canada. And that is a panel that is. led by Paul Rismondell from Signal Hill's Insights. And it features Bob Kane from Libsyn Ads, as well as Sarah Burke, Heather Gordon, and Karen Puglisi.
And then on Wednesday, we have podcast analytics that matter what to track and why. And that is Rob's must not miss session that is on Wednesday, April 2nd at 1145. So put that in your calendar right now. Then we have YouTube ads and beyond the rise of video podcast dollars. And that is Anthony Civelli and Steven Pickens for Lips and Ads again. Then Studio on a Budget, our own Matthew Passy is going to be bringing us the amazing presentation there on Wednesday again. And then lastly on Thursday.
Thursday, we have the amazing video podcasting on a budget quality content without breaking the bank with Brian Coddington. That is usually a standing room only session. So write that down. It's on Thursday, April 3rd at 1130 a.m. for that one. All right. And then after that, Rob, you are literally leaving from Podcast Movement Evolutions in Chicago to Las Vegas for NAB, correct? Yeah, I only be home like 36 hours. Oh, my God.
Yeah, I know I get back Thursday night and I fly out really early Saturday morning to go to NAB Las Vegas. So that is the first full week of April. So I get out there with the April 5th, 6th. timeframe and set up. And then that runs through Wednesday of that week there, April 6th. And then there's the podcast show in London. We'll have a couple of folks there and then podcast movement.
In August in Dallas. So we're getting close to that. So, you know, start making room there in your calendar for that event. And there's a couple others we're looking at for the fall, but those are the ones right now. So please, folks. if you're not going to show us mentioned, just, you know, let us know. Uh, you can always send me your business cards, put them out where I can. Rob at Lipson.com. And then switching gears from where we're going to, or where we've been to, where are you going?
And well, if you're looking for a job in podcasting, make sure you go to podcastingjobs.com. As of the middle of March, 2025, we had two openings listed there, both remote, director, creator. partnerships and director of podcast strategy and operations. Again, go to podcastingjobs.com to learn more about these openings and potentially others. And if you are looking to start a podcast or switch up your podcast.
Home, you can use the code THEFEED for a free month with us. And then finally, don't forget to send us your feedback for anything we did or did not mention on this episode. You can record that feedback and email it to us, thefeed at Lipson.com, or you can call us, 412-573-1934. And then finally, there is SpeakPipe. You can go to speakpipe.com slash thefeed and leave us feedback there as well. There you go. Right on. Well, thank you all. And we are going to have a special guest.
The next episode. So you all stay tuned, please. I cannot wait. I'm so excited because our entire Lipson team is going to be at Podcast Movement Evolutions. I am not going to be there, which is why I am recording not with anybody. Yes, indeed. But stay tuned and I cannot wait to bring them aboard and have a lovely conversation. But if you have any feedback, any follow-up, anything at all, please email thefeedatlipson.com. We love audio feedback.
Please send that in or you can record it at speakpipe.com slash the feed. Just like Rob said, thank you so much. Episode 291. I'll be back. I'll talk about how podcast movement evolutions and NAB went. Give you some feedback on both of those shows. All right, guys. Chat with you in a couple of weeks. Ciao.