¶ Intro / Opening
One of the things that's made me hypersensitive to. Is premature death. Um, because I think that it's very difficult. Like when I think about the difference between dying when I'm 60 or dying when I'm 90 and trying to lead a multigenerational family, it is night and day. Because you can imagine that those 30 years that I might, or might not have, we'll see God willing, but if I have those 30 years, I will meet at the rate, my family's multiplying probably two to three.
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the family teams podcast. So we are going back and forth talking to mothers about family teams, talking to dads about family teams. Um, so we want to hit some more fatherhood topics today that I think would be helpful. Again, this is for moms and dads. We, you know, we, we both care equally about both sides of the equation, but sometimes it's nice to just dial into one or the other.
So it's been really fun to interact with Phil. We've, um, talked through some articles. He's, he's also written, um, uh, over at the Gospel Coalition Canada. So yeah, excited to be able to. Uh, talk to you guys today. So we're going to dive into a couple of topics. We're going to hit a couple of videos. Um, there's one that I've been really trying to understand.
And the women will get mad and say, well, I don't hear you saying this about men. Why aren't you saying that men need to be staying home zero to three years old? But I've heard that a child's attachment is almost entirely created due to the relationship they have with their mother at first in those few years.
And it's really important to actually take that into consideration. And so a lot of the times when people are angry with masculine culture, they don't oftentimes even think back to, Oh, That generation grew up without fathers or with broken fathers for the most part and how that can impact What happens downstream.
And trauma and attachment issues got so bad that the baby boomers didn't understand them. Which is why about half of them started destroying the family system. Right? They're currently tripling divorce rates in their 70s and 80s. Those are the ones who are getting divorced instead of just waiting each other out, seeing who's gonna die first.
And so you're like, you know, this whole family thing just doesn't work real well. And then you blow it up. So that's kind of his hypothesis for what happened with the boomers. Not all of them are broken, but a lot of them are. And they started the system. Then you have gen Z, gen X and gen Y, the millennials, you have gen Z and it's got worse and worse through every system because nobody has seen a functioning system.
So that that's really important, I think, to look at these stages as like the recovering of masculinity. And it's this idea that's kind of going through a juvenile phase that we're trying to get out of. And even the phase that he described, but sort of the present father, I would say is itself. Um, you know, part of them was that juvenile phase where we've never gotten all the way back to the, the visionary leader leader as the father, um, at least as a culture, I just see that very rarely even understood as a element of fatherhood.
But my question is your attachment that is created as an infant, is it more, Based on, you know, how often your actual mother is changing your diapers and feeding you and stuff, or is it equal mom and dad? If we look at the research and say that attachment style, your attachment hologram, is survival adaptation for the world that you live in, then yes, your mom plays a significant role for that in the first several years.
Mass shootings, everything goes down when a present father is. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, we can really understand how critical, you know, that is, but yeah, I was curious what you guys thought I'll start with you feel caught in war. I'd love to get your thoughts on. So as he's describing any element of this, the generational.
And so then it's like, since that time, it does kind of feel like that center hasn't been there. Uh, what you were saying about that mature fatherhood figure, not really being present in our culture. I think, I think you're right. And I think the thing that jumped out at me is. It's certainly never it seems like it's never celebrated.
And that's something a lot of us are thinking through. Yes. Yeah. There's, we, we have to be honest about where we, where, where the foundation or what circumstances our generational family found itself in when we were born, what we experienced, what our fathers experienced. I know that one of the things that when I've studied multigenerational family life.
That is an absolute game changer. And you can, you can imagine the opposite of that. Imagine losing your father, you know, when he's 35 in a war. Or he comes back just so traumatized that he just can't emotionally engage. And so he just checked out all the time. Now that it's difficult to overstate the kind of impact that would have.
The Family Plan Calendar is the new way to keep your family team organized. Plan your rhythms, menu, household chores, and notes for the family all in one place. Visit FamilyTeams. com to purchase. Um, it made me just think about my own family history. I guess. My grandfather was in World War ii and so I know that my dad grew up, you know, kind of he, that my, so my granddad was in World War II starting when he was like.
He was very involved in our life, right? So he was not a disconnected father, but he was, but his example of fatherhood was, you know, It's half there, right? Cause his dad and his parents divorced. He was with his mom. Most of the time, you know, he didn't really have a father who was super in, in his life. And so I know he was also trying his best to reverse that thing that he experienced, you know, with us.
Um, but, but obviously some of the other, uh, things on that show are not really where I want to get into, but I'm, um, but yeah, trying not to swing too far the other direction, right. Where you become like a second mothering figure in the household, as opposed to kind of being like a father where you're really.
I think our generation, like you said, the millennial generation has become more aware that there's been, you know, this, this idea of like work life balance is definitely on the minds of, you know, my generation and maybe the one after, um, a lot more than it was on my parents, you know? Um, yes. Well, this framework that basically sometimes masculinity goes through.
Um, but then even, I think what we're talking about in terms of like the playful present father, I would say that that's all of these things are somehow foundational. Yes. You want the father who knows how to win and attract a woman. Like that's not a bad thing. That's an important part of masculinity. It certainly doesn't stop there.
You're like, Oh, wow. You just, you crushed it. Like a hundred percent, you know, here's an extra amount of money. You know, please come back. Like that's what you want from a babysitter, but if you showed up to your, uh, your, your son's, um, sports, uh, and that's all that was happening was like, well, we didn't really practice anything.
And as a team, I'm going to lead my family into that world. And my wife has as an amazing helper, um, that can, that can come alongside of me and, and really provide a lot of the nurturing and support that our family needs so that we can go to the next level and I can lead our family into difficult, uh, difficult areas, um, that, that we can take new ground.
This is stirring up for you. Wow, that's a really compelling vision you laid out. I love that contrast you drew between the babysitter and the coach. I think that really, that's like, we all intuit that difference. Um, but even as I think about my own role with my kids, um, you know, that, that's clarifying, that's helpful, uh, to think about how to evaluate, um, the time and the, the influence I have over my children.
I'm sure you do as well of listening to, you know, the best, most insightful social scientists. And they're always newly discovering the things that the scriptures have always taught. You know, it's, it's like, um, it's like someone with amnesia, you know, sort of discovering that he, he has a home and he has a wife and has children and he had all these things that, that are part of his heritage and what was given to him in his life.
Um, and it, it can help also, it can help us see things in the scriptures that perhaps were there, but we didn't see. And that's the dynamic I've often noticed. You know, even when I first heard you lay out the visions, family teams, multi generational teams. And your experience as you shared of, of asking, you know, the people in Israel, well, where did you get all these ideas?
And the problem is, you know, this has been pointed out by, famously, by the social scientist who wrote that book about Um, they, they, they call it, they use the acronym weird, Western educated. Basically what they uncovered was that every single one of these social science studies were being studying the same 5 percent of the population.
One is that you can try to discover new knowledge through You know, scientific research, and like you said, there, there are uses for that. And certainly we should let that voice, um, you know, consider that voice as, as it's coming up. But there's also scripture itself, right? Which actually, you know, shines the spotlight, you know, it takes the spotlight and actually looks, says, no, no, look over here.
At one tiny area and then discovered, I think, I think probably accurately that the way that's being done in that tiny area is, is inappropriate. And then you broaden that out and say, see, scripture doesn't know what it's talking about. Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not exactly the best way to think about research, especially as believers.
Need a blueprint to revise your family to be a multi generational team on mission? The book Family Revision by Jeremy Pryor is the book that summarizes all the big picture ideas you hear on this podcast. Available on Amazon or FamilyTeams. com I'll tell you the, the, the same, the babysitter coach thing was like really convicting, listening, listening to that. And then even hearing Phil kind of talk about it and bringing it back up, like, man, this is like really convicting for me.
I'm like, I bet you got to teach me. Like I'm way better at being a babysitter. So, but yeah, it's just convicting. I said, this is an area that I really want to get better at and improve in. So. That's really good. Yeah. And my marriage, you know, April is, she is such a, such a good manager and directive leader.
Hey, Jeremy, look, a good coach in this situation would actually like, you know, engage right there. Um, and we, we, we, and so. And she knows that if she were to do it, she could do it. She's more skilled at some of those things than I am, but it actually isn't better for our family or our kids. Um, so we just watched that over and over again.
There's something missing in that, in that attempt that's being done, I think culturally. So, and to what you guys are saying, I think part of what. You know, this babysitter coach distinction that we, we really need to try to understand. And this is something that Jeff, um, has helped me with a lot. Jeff Bethke, he's, he really went way down the rabbit hole, uh, on this in his book and has thought about this so deeply and take back your family.
And he was, his name was Abram in Genesis 12, when he first heard the voice of God and then began to lead his family into this very. This very new place. And so part of what you want to be able to do as a father is you have to start looking at the future. And I think one of the things that's really counterintuitive for Western fathers is that when they think about leading their family into the future, they think about their, their exhausted wife and their two, three, four little kids, and they're like, okay, I'm going to lead that team into the future.
And when he uses the word son in the gospels, he's always talking about an adult son. He's not talking about a three year old, you know, and so you, I've studied those, those parables are, they're so interesting just to, just to get a glimpse of the way that Jesus saw fatherhood. Um, and so there's a lot of what we are wrestling with.
What might that look like if we work together? Of course, voluntarily, all of these things should be done with a spirit of, of really, um, casting a vision and seeing if your children get excited. But man, you know, kids, when they are raised by a father who has done an incredibly skilled job of attaching and then casts a vision, that is the best vision they've ever heard.
Now, again, there's controlling really unhealthy and toxic ways of doing this. There's, but I think that, I think that we've been maybe overtold those stories and just haven't seen what this could look like, um, in a really healthy family. So yeah. Anything else that this is turn up for you guys before we, uh, you know, one more topic I want to hit with you guys before we go today.
Um, it makes me sad to think that not only is, So much of our world, um, you know, so distant from that vision, but, you know, even so much of the church, it seems, um, has, has very little notion, that this is, uh, possible. And, uh, so, yeah, I'm thankful, I'm thankful for, for your voice and others who are, who are making this, you know, making this argument,
And he's able to tap into even some biblical insights that I think are, you know, culturally, we, we really struggle with finding. So, yeah, let me, uh, let me, Play this with you guys, for you guys, and see, uh, what, see what your thoughts are here.
It's possible for each person to operate as the center of divinity in the world. And I believe that, I don't believe that there is a more reliable truth than that. And I also think that's true scientifically, by the way. Yes, it's beautiful that the word conduct obviously has those connotations of being a carriage for energy or for heat.
Let me declare them, you know, a creed. I believe that, you know, Jesus was born of a virgin. I believe that Jesus died and rose again. And that as soon as you say the magic words, um, you become a part of the Protestant community and you're saved. And if you can't say the magic words anymore, um, this is a caricature, obviously, then somehow you've, you've lapsed in your faith.
I'm trying to obey Jesus. Now I found myself really compelled by that vision because I feel like there, we are struggling with that. But how do we do that without losing the fact that we have a, we have, we believe in salvation by faith, which does it involve like actually agreeing You know, certain things that were done for us on the cross, as opposed to salvation by works.
And he notes, you know, that right about a generation after the Reformation, you know, this, which was also a spiritual revival because of the, um, the errors and the excesses and the corruptions of the medieval church, that even just a generation after that revival, you know, so much of Lutheran churches and Protestant churches were basically what he described as dead orthodoxy.
To these churches who had become so stale. And then you have this flame of spiritual life, which is really compelling. It's got a charisma, it's got a power about it. Um, and yet, you know, through the second Great Awakening, the way I understand that is, it kind of devolves into revivalism and emotionalism, and then you get some of the It's one of the worst aspects of evangelicalism, which is kind of like an anti intellectualism.
That's in the apostolic tradition. And so, I think if you have one and not the other of those, you quickly, within a generation or two, are in deep trouble. Well said. Yeah, I really want to tease this out. I think that part of what you guys will hear me bring up from time to time is I like talking with fathers about how to work through some of these challenging theological, um, problems of our day or topics that are coming up.
Um, a couple of years ago, um, and feel good when he's joined me on, on my, uh, following Jesus Friday. Sometimes I love getting to do this with, with, uh, my friends where we just gather, um, and try to read a little bit of the gospels and say, what does it mean to imitate Jesus? Like I just realized that most of my faith was being shaped by religious traditions and not by Jesus himself.
Uh, encourage fathers and get closer to an understanding of what biblical fatherhood looks like. So appreciate you guys doing this with me. Thanks, Jeremy. It's great. Yeah. Thanks for having us.