¶ Intro
instead of just constantly having Conversation as if people's desires come out of nowhere and they just spring into existence when they're 20, no, you, you're raising your daughter in your home and you're either lifting up motherhood.
Welcome back to the family teams podcast. We're going to do a motherhood episode. And so we're going to try to hit two topics today. One about, uh, the unique challenges of raising daughters and trying to raise them without making them or raising them into sons, which is a conversation we're constantly trying to understand here at family teams.
And they, uh, they framed it in a way that I thought would be helpful for us to, to dive into. So I'll play this and then, uh, get your guys take on this. All so we were told that we were equal to the boys. But now after we grow up, they said, No, you need to go back to the family, get married, have some kids and just do all the mom things. Uh, no. We were raised to become this independent individual, both financially and emotionally. We went to the same school as the boys.
So, so she said that, that in China, um, because of the one child policy, when you have a daughter, you raise her like Mulan, right? Like she's raised to be a son, to be a warrior, to really represent the family in what was traditionally masculine roles. And then all of a sudden, now the, the state is realizing their error and they're beginning to try to reverse their propaganda and say, no, we need to make sure that women, we, we, we clarify the difference.
I do believe that, you know, this is something that is happening because. We are empowering women, right? So why would any woman put all this time, energy and effort getting the best education, going to the workforce, and then when they get married and they have kids, they're the ones who are expected to stay home and give up everything that they've spent their whole lives building for themselves.
But first, like when you're raising daughters, it's so intuitive now in the West to raise them, uh, to, uh, to take care of themselves, to be as independent as possible. And, and there's such a dissonance to suddenly then say to a daughter. Um, we've given you all of the advantages to be able to be independent. I wanted your take on, uh, on the aspect of how much is expected of women, uh, once they actually get into a marriage and is that why some are actually staying away?
Why are people in Japan marrying their friends with more and more young Japanese de In traditional marriage, a new trend has emerged.
Um, there's only one path and that is you have to somehow recapture the way God designed, men and women to work together to build families. And he did a good job. You made it, you made it, we're the ones messing it up. We're the ones who are really struggling with, with embracing this blueprint. And then Anna Lee, who was on, and she described in, in South Korea, the place where the birth rate is lower than any other place in the world.
And so the degree of adoption that, that occurred with that generation that was getting those messages was very high. They began to follow the blueprint, um, right into this, this, uh, this future. where they're going to face population collapse, um, in a way that, that is almost difficult to imagine. Right. Um, I think I mentioned before, it takes now a hundred, um, South Koreans to make just about three great grandchildren.
Right? It's like, if this is what happens when you raise daughters to be sons, or you just erase gender during the period of time in which you raise kids, and you just, you just treat sons and daughters exactly the same way, this seems to be the predictable result. Is that daughters become more like sons, and they become rewarded to the degree that they achieve things in a traditionally masculine way.
Yeah. Well, I, I'm remembering, um, back when I was in college or like the year or two leading up to college, um, trying to put myself back in that mindset.
Like, why am I doing this again? Like, what, what am I doing? Cause I think I'm probably at some point going to want to get married. I think I'm probably going to want to have kids. And if I do that, then. Why am I trying to get a business degree? Like, I don't, I pictured myself sitting in an office in a cubicle and was like, I don't actually want to do that with the rest of my life.
And then she decided to Quit her job and stay home with us. And I had the benefit of having a mother who stayed home with us. And, um, I grew up in an entrepreneurial family on both sides of my family. So there was a lot going for me in terms of, um, being able to kind of break out of the norm and think a little bit differently.
It's, it's interesting because I think part of what's happened is that because college has gotten so expensive, uh, the return on investment that you get from college has to be higher, right? If you're going to go into debt, that's going to take five to 10 years or more to pay off, then it's really important that.
and they need credentials, right? Depending on, on, on what they are going into. And I think one of the things that we've said to our daughters is don't worry about the credentials, like just throw that away. Um, and that's, that freed us up to think about things very differently. If they need the credential, then obviously getting a bachelor's degree and master's degree, going into all the debt, all that stuff becomes very difficult.
Um, and so that's, that's one way to kind of frame or think about this. So Jess, what are your thoughts? What did that, uh, sort of stir up for you? That, um, is like the way of Jesus. Like, Hey, Hey, God made us man and, or male and female for a reason. So what does that look like? Um, so yeah, I, I feel like I'm still in the. The trenches of I have a two year old daughter. And so seeing the differences between my sons and her and me, like, how do I encourage that?
Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. You, you, we are telling a story to our children. We are saying to our daughters, this is what, this is, this is what, this is the pathway. You know, one of the things I get really frustrated with is, is when people are always asking the question of somebody who's 18, 19, 20, um, well, what do you want?
Through the way you're living as a mother, through what you're saying about motherhood, um, through the, the stories that you're telling. Like you said, Jess, I think that's so accurate. The biggest, the biggest story wins. What are those big stories you're telling? Even things like, what are you watching? Like our, you know, when you're watching Mulan, it's a really interesting story.
Um, what's, what's really dangerous is to say, yeah, even though. We're having lots of sons and daughters. We're going to raise them the same. That's a different story. That's the story that I would really want to resist. And that requires us to get clear, clear about what a daughter is, what a son is. Um, and so I think that's really important.
Don't let your brothers tell you different. Or she has said, why can't I swim with my shirt off like the boys? And I've just said, Oh, she's the double standard, you know? Really, my heart's been convicted because you're right, boys and girls have different roles, and anytime we swim upstream, it's not gonna be easy, right?
That really shapes How we raise our children and the things we speak over them. And so thankfully my personal story was when my parents got divorced at seven, I knew at such a young age, my goal is to stay home with my children. I'm going to stay home and I'm going to be a mom. Um, and so I did like April was saying, I went to college still, it's like, I'm going to be a teacher that fits into the mother role the best.
Those credentials were worthless. But I did get the education and I get to use that in my home with my children, in my marriage, in my friendships, in people who mentor me or I get to disciple. So I see the value of it. But to think of pushing my daughter and saying, go pursue, you know, um, a degree when her calling may be to be home and be a mother.
Like, um, just, yeah, that whole story of Ruth, I just love of like, Oh, this is the story I should be like telling over and over again. And like looking at not only for myself as a daughter, but then how to teach others, how to disciple others. And what does that look like and how can we implement that in today?
And then her brother in law dies. And there are no men left. And Naomi is the one who's left absolutely destitute. She changes her name to Mara, which means bitterness. And she needs support. And so there is no, and one of the things that, that you see even in that story, and this kind of, um, really dovetails with where we're headed next, which is who is supposed to step up and provide in the case that all the men are wiped out.
refused to do his duty. And that's when Boaz stepped up and God provided graciously. And then of course, then you get the line of David coming from the decision that Boaz makes. So, so what do you do? Do we want to create an entire culture where, um, and this really, I think does connect well with the conversation around daughters, because one of the reasons why you want to raise your daughters like sons.
So she's going to frame this from the perspective of the trad wife movement. So this is the movement that is kind of a social media phenomenon where there are women who are living more of a traditional life.
People say that Tried Wives are not so good. Smart for fully combining your life with your husband and not having any of your own money And I just don't agree with that There are a lot of successful ways to have a marriage and combining everything is one of them My thought is if you're both in it to win it, why wouldn't you combine everything?
Probably not. I think that the real issue with these trad wife influencers is that they're not laying out the risks and giving some caution. It's just go forth, submit to your husbands, and everything will be okay. Stephanie Kuntz, the Director of Research for the Council on Contemporary Families, says it's worrisome if people in the movement convince young women that depending on a male breadwinner will solve their work related frustrations without considering the risks that a man might lose his job, die early, mistreat them, or abandon them.
Over 50 percent of marriages in the U. S. end in divorce, and I can assure you that nobody's sitting on their wedding day and thinking, oh, we're planning to get divorced. I chose to stitch this because this is exactly me when I was 26 or 27. I had two young kids. I remember walking into a thrift store of all places and I saw one of my mom's old friends and she was like, Oh, how are you?
to this man. And I had poured all of my talent and all of my energy into his business, building his business because I was staying home with the kids. And this was the way we were making an income together. What I wish that I could tell myself back then was shake, shake, shake, listen to the lady who's a little bit older than you.
And I really want to understand what you guys think about that, but it's also, there are also going to be people listening to this who have seen the nightmare scenario on the other side, the woman who really is. destitute after having given everything to her husband and to this family. This is a very difficult topic, you know?
That's a full time job. Like, like we're in a hyper competitive capitalist economy. You can't simply say to women that you need to be able to enter the marketplace and be able to compete directly with men. And you're going to be able to do that while taking, um, all of this time to focus on your family and have very little engagement for potentially a decade or more in, in the marketplace.
Well, I remember the first time I even heard this idea was, um, because Uh, at our Christian homeschool co op, um, one of our daughter, who was probably 16 at the time, her, one of her teachers was really getting on her because she wasn't sure if she wanted to go to college or not.
But I feel like just so much of all of this goes back to what you believe, like, what do you believe to be true? What, so, so if you are someone who, um, is trying to live a life, surrender to Jesus. And is trying to follow the Bible and, um, God and his design and his ways. Um, it is my belief that if you end up in this type of a situation, there's a whole lot that has gone wrong.
You know, I don't this woman didn't talk about her belief or anything like that in her in her story, but I feel like So much of it has to be based. Like, what are you basing your life on? What are you basing your decisions on? Who is your life surrendered to? Is it surrendered to your husband in the hopes that he in 20 years from now still.
Putting others before myself and about taking up my cross daily I can take those things from Jesus and like apply them to my day that day I can have victory in that day And so I feel like if you do that on and I know we can't we're not perfect and we don't do that perfectly daily But if we're just like in a constant state of like, you know The cycle of desiring to follow Jesus and be surrendered to him and like being our fallen self But also just continuing to try to follow him then You know I would, I believe that there's power in that in him, not me, but in there's power in his ways.
And although I do it imperfectly, that ultimately is where kind of like my aim is. And so I feel like if you don't have that. Then I it's understandable why you'd be concerned that it's up to you to build a contingency plan.
Marriage is, is far more about fulfilling particular duties. And it's really clear what those are and everyone's able to do it. And then of course you stay married, um, because that's, that's the framework. But in our, in our context, we put so much freight on marriage and then we don't give people. Um, the kind of faith that helps them deal with the challenges that, that come up in human relationships that are in, in a covenant like that.
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Like, I'd be like, come to me. Like that's my job. I'm the contingency plan. You know, I'm the father. And so there's, there's a, there should be men that, uh, are there sort of like in, in traditional cultures there, there's an assumption that it's always, Men's responsibility to provide for women because that always was necessary in traditional cultures You couldn't have a culture, but that wasn't happening And so then there would be a clear order within the culture of who takes responsibility It's like in the story of Ruth where you have this massive tragedy, right?
And so there needs to be, and this in, in the church, one of the things that occurred is that you had families where women were not being provided for and were vulnerable because they were coming into the kingdom and they were losing their families. And that's why in act six, one of the first decisions that the early church made was to provide for all of the widows from these families.
And like I said, the problem with contingency planning for most women is that's going to dominate their lives. You can't just do that tiny bit on the side, sprinkle a little contingency plan. Um, that, that, that is a huge obstacle. Uh, endeavor to keep up and your family will suffer greatly for it. It's so much better for women who want to be stay at home moms.
Again, kind of what I said earlier, like what story are we both living into? So my husband and I, like, are we aligned on like God's story for, um, like where we play a part in that story? And then just like what, like April was saying, what is like the bedrock of our faith and where are we getting that?
Um, I think there's something so unifying in that, um, that I, We talk often on here that our culture has lost. Um, and that, um, the situation too, just reminds me of just the sad reality that we aren't walking in the Lord's blueprint. And so how do we, um, Can't like, again, hold that story up high. Like, Hey, here's what God says.
When you're starting to think about the kind of messages, instead of giving to the culture and just saying to your daughter, Hey, look, we're giving you education, we're going to cut you off. You're going to provide for yourself. Those are all messages given to sons. And I do think that there is a. There is a, um, a critical amount of weight that a son needs to feel on their shoulders, um, in order for them to become a man and begin to understand how to provide the problem with doing that to daughters is that the minute they become pregnant, that, um, weight is going to, is going to crush them because now all of a sudden they have the dual task of.
And, you know, for the first season of their lives, it's, it's like, we're not. thoughtfully thinking about this from the perspective of, and I, I think one of the, one of the questions I'm always wondering, and you can think about this from the perspective of your daughters is what, what kind of masculine provision culture would you want to create?
Um, and I think what our culture has said is like, we'll just, we will stop celebrating motherhood because we don't want women to be that vulnerable because men have, Uh, so badly either abused or neglected their responsibilities to provide. And so this is why these are, these are really becoming binary options.
You're forcing them into this vulnerability. So this is the kind of these are why these two different stories are at war in our culture because they're very different. Um, and if you're going to pick one, and this is why I think she's really kind of laying this out there. Um, these, these, uh, trad wife influencers are presenting a story that's radically different than the girl boss, um, ideas, but underneath all of that are large amounts of assumptions that need to be challenged.
uh, about a year ago, I had a really close family member come to town. And, um, after a few days we were sitting in my driveway and she said, so do you know how to make your own money? And I was like, huh? And, uh, she said, well, all this is nice, but you know, men cheat, men leave. Do you know how to make your own money?
The key is that God provided. And so if we're operating in this Christian belief system, we don't need that contingency plan because we believe that God's going to provide. If things do, because the enemy is at work, the enemy wants to destroy marriages. He wants, he's got a target on all of our backs. But I thought like, if we're operating as a family team, like you were saying, Jeremy, you're going to have a team there, but so much of our culture is pushing independence and individualism.
something we say a lot around here is, um, we roll deep and that is, I guess it's a way of saying like, we've got lots of contingency plans, but it's all each other.
Well, who's gonna come bring the thing? You know, so it's like, You're at school, but, but this car is here and you're the driver and you can go. So we just have this like, kind of understanding that we have each other's backs where, um, you know, that we're looking out for you and, you know, we're looking out for, we're all looking out for each other, um, within the framework of like, you know, being people who are trying to surrender to the Lord on a daily basis.
Yeah, you could. Yeah. I almost put a beat to what you were saying. Um, that was good. We rolled deep. Well, yeah. And this is, this is what, yeah. Cause we just had this conversation like an hour or two ago. We're, we're hosting a big banquet at our house tonight. And, um, somebody who came over to help said, well, whoa, two of your daughters are gone in Korea.
And I think that there's the hyper dependent life that, you know, some people, that's where you become, I think the culture today is you be hyper independent. And that if anything were to go wrong, you're going to become instantly a hyper dependent on the government. It's like, that's the one, two, there's no interdependence, right?
Um, I'm going to live as a complete individual. And then that's just an anti family way to live. Um, and this is why a lot of people don't value family, won't put in the work. Because they, they look at that and they're like, I want, I want the independent life. And maybe for a lot of people, they just haven't even seen the beauty of rolling deep with a family.
Yeah. There's a character implication to this whole conversation, right? Part of why these families break down, part of why there's such selfishness with some husbands or some wives. Is because they have been trained to live this independent life. you.