¶ Intro / Opening
So we're excited to have them. We have Annalisa who is a part of family teams. Uh, she helps us out with all kinds of operational things. And so she is zooming in from Savannah. Holly Worley is zooming in from Parker, Colorado. Her on her husband, Mike is a part of integrated. And so we've gotten to know them really well through that.
Around the whole family space, motherhood in particular and femininity. And part of what we're trying to figure out is, okay, there's a particular lens that I think our paradigm of family brings to these questions that I don't hear hardly anywhere. And so I want to stir up that conversation, see how each of you guys respond to, to these topics.
It includes no academic or intellectual path or mode of being for women and leaves them with no place to be. It gives them a role to play, but no vision of a self to be, or a story of her own to be a part of. She needs to slay dragons as well. The left at least gives women the option of some sort of self expression.
And I just want to say, first of all, that what he's saying, that There is a compelling vision for women on the left. And of course, part of what we try to do here is not get too overtly political. Our primary aim is to try to understand the way that God designed the family and, uh, the challenges and implications of that for our lives and for our families.
I think these problems and these questions and challenges and opportunities are all theological at their base. And so I always like to think about is, does the Bible give us a unique lens? But the couple of things that he's saying here that I think I would say, I think the let's start with maybe where we might agree with where he's coming from.
So April, I want to start with you and then go around the horn and get each of your reactions to what he's saying here, but, uh, I'm, I want to hear, you know, do you, do you, what, what about this? Do you feel like is like resonates and what it feels dissonant and why about what he's saying here about the, the role of, of wives and mothers?
And I. I don't really think that that's a tenet of Christianity. I think that that is how there are many different sects within Christianity, and I see how some of them, it does kind of play out. But I think that in this idea of a family, if you're looking at a family as a team, then you're looking at each member on the team, and you're You're trying to understand what the vision is, what the plan is for the team, where we're heading.
I think that there are things sometimes I have to do on my own to prepare myself, to be successful. More ready for what God has coming, whether it is, you know, taking classes, I think he, he's saying there's no room for academic or intellectual mode for being a woman, which I have not personally experienced that I've been able to feel educated and academically challenged when I've needed to for the different things.
You could call that very narrow, but God set it up that way. And he, he, so I want to be part of his design. He designed it that way. And so I believe that his design is best. And so I want to follow him in his way. So I, I don't really like to, I don't think it's a Christianity. Yeah. That, that, that like, yeah, pigeonholing it in that way.
And I think that's actually true because in most cases in the West, vision has been removed from the family and has been placed strictly in the arena of the individual. So once you've made that move, then you've sort of forced women to leave the family team, the arena of the family to find a vision to be like you saying, okay, but I, I'm just saying, I think we need to take a big step back and look at that particular move.
The problem is that the family used to be one of those teams. The family used to be a place where. It had a vision and, and so, and not only for the wife, but also for the husband, like this was the primary arena through which husbands would also find how to be. And so what I think happened and, and this is what we're trying to, uh, really resist and really return to not to 1950s vision of the family in which all of the vision is now in arenas outside the family.
Holly, what does this turn up for you? Yeah. So yeah, the, the, what, what is the vision of the family? And this is, this is where, you know, you go to the very first, the very first page of the Bible, it actually spells out the family's vision and it says the family was created to be fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue, and rule.
Holly, what does this turn up for you? Yeah. So yeah, the, the, what, what is the vision of the family? And this is, this is where, you know, you go to the very first, the very first page of the Bible, it actually spells out the family's vision and it says the family was created to be fruitful, multiply, fill, subdue, and rule.
And I think that when you think about that five part mission of the family given to both the husband and the wife. Yeah, all that you're describing Holly that you're doing and raising your daughter and your sons. You're being fruitful. You're preparing them to be future fathers and mother in order to multiply your family line and then all the things and the missions that God calls your family to do in terms of of fillings of doing and ruling.
You do them through teams. You do them potentially through academic teams or through corporate teams or through sports teams. You can find places, but the family is one of those entities, and it was designed to be the primary entity for women and men choosing to have children. And so that's, what's different is that we're saying, no, that the family can't be that entity through which you, you, you do the dragon slaying through which you are on mission.
And so this then leaves the mother in a terrible situation where That her world is narrowing and narrowing and narrowing because the, the actual family is not functioning like a team. And the person that was designed to lead the family, like a team. is, has decided to join somebody else's team. And I think that's what creates a lot of the tension he's describing.
And the only places where you're really experiencing Thriving or being or identity are the times when you engage in arenas outside the context of the family. So Annalisa, what does this start for you? Yeah. So I, when I first read this, it made me think of my generation and how we were very much raised with the mindset of even all of my Christian friends raised the mindset of go to college, get a degree and do it on your own.
It changed when I got married. And so I think that's a distinction to make for me because. The vision of family makes a big difference. And the vision is I want to follow, follow God and he impacts that vision. And so I think that's an important distinction because a lot of this doesn't really hit home unless you have that mindset of my family as a team.
But, In this context, it's more, and I think that's probably cultural too, is that self expression is now identity and it becomes a part of who you are. Like, I think what you were saying, Holly, is that it becomes a part of your identity is all of these other things instead of who you are in Christ. So, yeah, that, that is interesting.
And, and so in order for you to express yourself. And so these are identities that you can, you can say, look, I love being an artist. I love being a musician. You know, I love these skills that I get to use in terms of like sports or, or work kind of in, in a corporate sense, you know, that you might've developed through a college or other programs, but what we seem to not.
I say, I'm going to make a covenant. with my wife, and I'm going to say faithful to her for life so that we can then experience the, what it's like to, uh, to be a husband, a father, a father and a mother. And then that also requires sacrifices. And we develop skills as fathers and mothers to be able to experience that, that element of our identity.
We say self expression is the ultimate Um, is the ultimate achievement. Like we all are, we all assume in this culture that we're, we're moving towards, uh, more and more radical self expression. One of the things that that is so makes so difficult and to just be honest about it is, is when you make self expression an idol, it makes it really difficult to prioritize long term relationships because long term relationships gives another person a vote.
Who got to choose that? Like why that is not biblical. It's never been biblical. Jesus said, like, I did not come to be served, but to serve and to give my life as a ransom for many. I mean, this, this is the gospel itself. Is a story of choosing to lay down your life for others and the real pathway, the real challenge for the believer is what is going to help me in the pursuit of learning how to be the kind of person who joyfully lays down my life to serve others.
And so when, yeah, it seems so narrow, I just think of Proverbs 31, I'm like, but there's such a vision cast there of how to be a matriarch and what that looks like. And there are so many intellectual skills that I have yet to learn and figure out what to do. Even right now with little kids, like what is like my best invitation for blessing my family and what does that look like?
Does anybody else want to pick up on, on Proverbs 31? Because I do think that chapter offers a pre industrial revolution vision of motherhood. That oftentimes shocks people who think that the Bible is teaching a 1950s housewife version of motherhood. So, yeah, any, any thoughts that y'all have on, on how that, how might that impact what he's describing here as this sort of visionless situation that mothers are in?
Bed coverings for all her beds. And, you know, it just seemed like so overwhelming and then, you know, getting to like grow in my own talents and abilities and my own motherhood and understanding how to manage a household and how to, how to have help in the home. And, and all of these things have matured me and grown me to the point where I can read it now and be like, oh, I, I did that one.
It's like, I had to learn something to get there. I had to work really hard to be able to. To accomplish that task or to do that thing, or to have that goal or to get up while it was still dark out, took a lot of self control and like all that stuff. So I feel like there is a lot of vision there that can still grow us as at the individual us, as we are a part of a team.
So when you've hit your career, when you made it by yourself, when you can live in an apartment by yourself and not depend on anyone, you've made it and you're strong and you've persevered and you've overcame. But when you look at Proverbs 31, really the measurement is, do my kids and call me blessed. And like you were saying, April, that's long term, that's long term vision casting.
So she's an investor. Um, she's entrusted with the multigenerational assets of the family and she's shrewdly investing them. Talks about how she basically manages a whole team of, of servants. And so you're, you're really, you, this picture of. And this, this is the, this is sort of that pre industrial revolution household.
So this, this was a way that families lived for, you know, for, you know, Hundreds or thousands of years before suddenly there was this hyper specialization introduced to us. Because of the industrial revolution, that was such a dramatic shift. And this is why so many Christians are confused because Christians, we have all these stories and all this.
But the reality is we live in a free country and anyone, anyone listening to this, you could all decide. To develop the kind of family team. That existed before the industrial revolution. It's actually easier now than almost any time in history. There was a, there was a period economically where this is really difficult, you know, when you just, just kind of the Dickinsonian era, it was like, where it was just required enormous capital to, to own a business or to start anything, uh, because things were, were becoming so industrialized from that point until probably the forties or fifties, but.
I I'm not in a relationship. Should I be worried? And so I went and looked at all the comments and it was just. Absolutely universal hundreds and hundreds of comments. I think it was thousands of comments and I couldn't find a single one that said that she should be worried. They all were like, Oh, you got plenty of time, you know?
People aren't being honest with young women about their bodies and timelines. Has anyone ever told you that your prime childbearing years are over? Has anyone ever talked to you about how aging changes your fertility? She said, no. No one. Not one person. And as stupid as it sounds, she hadn't thought about it until I mentioned it.
You can rely on IVF, even though it doesn't work all the time, and it is insanely, insanely expensive. You can just adopt, even though that process is incredibly convoluted and heartbreaking. We have been lied to, and we have not been given the proper information. But all of this is equipping women with information about their bodies and about the realities of the modern dating landscape so that they can make informed decisions, especially for young women.
What that means is that the dating pool of suitably matched partners is super slim, depressingly so. Yeah. So this is, uh, I'm curious what your guys experiences of this, like when, when you are talking to young women or as you were thinking about this as young women, before you were married, how did you perceive this in a world where we're obsessed with, you know, sex education.
And so oftentimes if you think about a 30 year old, just looking for a mate that might take two or three or four or five years to find somebody. Then one year, when you find that person, the decision to when to start a family, you have to agree on. And let's say that takes a few more years. And then you begin to try and you discover that you're so far past your fertility that it requires fertility treatments.
So, yeah, I'm curious what this turns up for you guys. Annalisa, maybe we can start with you and then we'll go around. I have lots of thoughts, so I'll try and keep it short. First, it stirs up that this is the conversation that was pushed early in the 20s. Like, you go to college, get a job, all of that can wait.
But it is heartbreaking to hear that these conversations aren't being had. The science behind it isn't being talked about in Christian circles because it's definitely needed. Absolutely. Holly, what are your thoughts? yeah, it's not being real honestly discussed. Jess, what are your thoughts? Oh man, kind of like Annalisa. I have so many thoughts. It kind of just brought me back to my own personal story of we first got married and we like waited four years, but that wasn't intentional. That was because I did athletics and I like depleted my body so much that a doctor was like, it's like, you need to like kind of repair yourself first before you try to have kids.
But it is heartbreaking to hear that these conversations aren't being had. The science behind it isn't being talked about in Christian circles because it's definitely needed. Absolutely. Holly, what are your thoughts? yeah, it's not being real honestly discussed. Jess, what are your thoughts? Oh man, kind of like Annalisa. I have so many thoughts. It kind of just brought me back to my own personal story of we first got married and we like waited four years, but that wasn't intentional. That was because I did athletics and I like depleted my body so much that a doctor was like, it's like, you need to like kind of repair yourself first before you try to have kids.
But it is heartbreaking to hear that these conversations aren't being had. The science behind it isn't being talked about in Christian circles because it's definitely needed. Absolutely. Holly, what are your thoughts? yeah, it's not being real honestly discussed. Jess, what are your thoughts? Oh man, kind of like Annalisa. I have so many thoughts. It kind of just brought me back to my own personal story of we first got married and we like waited four years, but that wasn't intentional. That was because I did athletics and I like depleted my body so much that a doctor was like, it's like, you need to like kind of repair yourself first before you try to have kids.
That's not actually what I want to do forever. Anyway, I wanted to be a mom. All right. And then just the whole, like having to surrender to the Lord, like, Lord, I didn't plan on losing three babies, but. Like, thank you for like the lessons and like what you're teaching me through that. But I wish that someone would have said like, there's no guarantee that just because you do all the right things, that that's going to equal the number of children you want.
And within, I think in order to get women to buy into that, The conversation around fertility had to be, had to be silenced or muted somehow. April, what does this start for you? Well, I think this is another way that technology has kind of like intervened with God's design from the world, the idea of birth control.
What is, what is the purpose of marriage? When, when you decide to get married, are you, are you saying like, now I'm going to start a family or are you saying kind of what Holly was saying? It's like. Now we're going to get married and we're going to live life. And we're going to have these check these things off our list.
So it was like, get on the pill for five years because you live life and then you have kids. And just that whole mentality is, is, has really taken over even in the Christian world. Yeah. We don't really realize how much carries with it an assumption, assumption about the family that it's essentially a negative thing.
And it was like the most authentic reaction I've ever seen. She's like, Oh no. And we're, we're married. We're like, you know, we're, we're ready, but it's kind of early, you know, it's our first year of marriage, but it's, you know, and, and this is my on my face. And I was like, I was clearly excited. But, but again, it was an authentic reaction.
Then you're like, okay, I've got to get the last bit of enjoyment out of this season, because what's coming is going to be worse. Like, I can't imagine another way to frame that. That just sounds like that to me. And, and so as soon as you promote that, I think you are promoting this idea that there's something inherently restrictive.
And all of his friends are there like clapping and singing and crying and just cannot believe how, what a beautiful miracle this is like that that's the way children were used to be perceived and celebrated and into the world. And now we go off on baby moons to, to be moan, the, uh, the, the lifestyle hit that we're about to take.
But like, Hey, if this is what you want to do. We also want to consider family, right? Cause if you both want a family and to do this, how, how can we help lead you in the direction of meshing those two together immediately and not one after the other, and I think, and it's, it always blows my mind because the first question that we ask kids is what do you want to be when you grow up or what do you want to do when you grow up?
The word that we're constantly trying to explore is integration. Like if you, if you are, if you're really thoughtful about how to integrate things that you feel called to. And you see them as more family missions or you know, these are these are things our family does so like our family I love to travel and so instead of going on a baby moon You know, we we as a family got really into RVing and just integrated our kids into that You know that we're constantly trying to figure out how do we live a lifestyle?
And that may require resources and support from our generation. And we're super excited to do it because this is all integrated part of our mission to multiply. You don't, you don't, you don't multiply unless you start having grandchildren. And so we don't see those kids as a part of their family. We see it as an integrated part of our family. Yeah. Any other last things that this has turned up for you guys before we go? Excellent.
Well, thank you guys all for taking the time to be on this today and talk about some pretty challenging topics for, uh, our culture and or even our Christian world. So thank you guys so much. And yeah, we'll do it again soon. See you guys later. Bye.