Giving Your Kids An Identity In Christ, Not Gender with Jonathan Holmes

Yeah, it's a great question. I agree with you. I think it is one of the hottest topics today, but maybe not in the reason why a lot of parents and, uh, Christians might think of it and here's, here's how I'll come at it. You know, you hear a lot today about mental health in children and teens, how depression, suicide, anxiety rates are higher than ever.

Yes. So who, who am I? Why am I here? These questions are becoming extremely confusing to people in a way that has not been historically the case. So what do you think, what is happening culturally to make this such a difficult, uh, difficult thing to ground our identity in something? Right. I think in our post modern, post Christian environment, uh, we have definitely moved the authority of identity to the individual.

And that's been a, that's a significant shift for how identity was formed for the greater part of human history, which was more of a traditional, uh, identity formation process, which was your identity was already preset. Based off of where you were born, what family you were born into, what gendered body you were born into, a lot of those identity making characteristics were already preset.

So you were told who you were. Um, you know, what you felt, you know, at this some, some given day, or as an individual, um, was not necessarily a place from which you would ground your identity. Um, but there was something about the gospel itself that does cause us to be a little bit more individualistically referenced than I think a lot of traditional cultures.

So God is the one who says, listen, this is who you are. Right. This is why I've made you and now there's a great freedom within that framework. I think for human beings to live and to flourish and to fulfill that purpose. So the constraints of traditional identity, which was, Hey, based off of where you were born, what socioeconomic demographic you were born into the parents that you were given, it was much more rigid.

So walk me through the, how that actually works in the context of childhood. So I'm imagining somebody who's growing up and they are wrestling, like everyone does with, okay, like, why am I here? Who am I? They may go to a, they may spend a lot of time in sort of peer oriented school settings. Um, and they're trying, we're trying to help them as parents ground their identity in the gospel.

So yeah, like, and this is getting complex. So I just want to understand like, yeah, how do we pull this apart? I'm trying to, how do you see this? Yeah, and it's a question I think a lot of parents are asking. I would say, put simply, in the ideal scenario, families are going to be, I think, the best vehicles in context for godly identity formation.

They've abdicated that they've kind of stepped back from that parental role. And I tell people this all the time. If you don't want to disciple and train up your kids, somebody will be more than happy to do it for you. And. Culture has, I would say, in so many ways filled that gap, whether it's YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, teachers, education, etc.

And maybe you want your kid to be the most popular, whatever it might be. Sometimes we struggle with putting our own agenda for our children ahead of what God has called us to, uh, in their lives. Yeah, that is a collision. So talk to me a little bit about what, what's a realistic understanding of how Much peers versus family play in the identity formation process.

She's going to be neat. She's going to need to react to the way that. Her identity is being formed by those peers or what they're saying about her, what kind of subgroupings they're placing her in. And that when that identity collides with the family identity, that's given to her at church or through her family in the faith, basically their cases, the peers are going to win because of the survival instinct of the child.

They, they push hard against that and they, they reject it. So what, what, what do you see, especially in middle school years, I'm thinking, like I said, that middle school girl, like, do we have to be more realistic about, uh, the impact that peer orientation or social media or some of these other things are having on our kids?

So we know the influence of friends is key. I think one of the things I would encourage parents then with to counterbalance that, if you can't completely eliminate it, is how do you positively, early on, set in the groundwork for gospel identity? How do you teach, talk, train, and disciple your kids into an identity that is rooted and based in scripture and that points to Christ?

They do cede a lot of that territory to peer oriented influences, to teachers, to TV. Um, to other influencers. And I think parents have to reclaim that in many ways. Yeah, man. Yeah. It's, it's a tough job. It is. He's like, it's getting harder. It is. It really is. Yeah. And any, any, well, uh, John, any tools for grounding?

Um, I think a lot of parents, uh, don't practice curiosity. They don't really seek understanding of their child. Sometimes they can just deal with the 10 percent of the iceberg and the other 90 percent that's below the water. We we can kind of just leave that underwater. We don't really pursue it. So encouraging parents to ask really good questions to know their child's temperament, their strengths, their weaknesses, their temptations, their distractions, their desires, their dreams to find out, listen, where is my child most prone to put his identity in or to place her identity in?

Yeah. One of the things you said in that was sometimes There's also a danger in them thinking they are who I, as a parent, I'm trying to make them into, or that's a very difficult line, uh, to figure out. So how much, where is that line? Like, how would you describe, cause I mean, part, part of the, the reality of I think ancient cultures is that they had these rites of passage where they would confer identity.

Um, all of the male relatives had flown in for this. And I went from that, that experience, like seeing, and it was amazing. They had done, I mean, he had spent a whole year with the rabbi, you know, I mean, it was like the amount of identity, that 13 year old boy, and I know this was just one event of many that were going on, Um, around his bar mitzvah, but it was, it was, it's just so intense.

We're supposed to make them into our image, our identity, our agenda. And Tripp. I think rightly counters and says, no, we really are ambassadors for Christ. We're about his agenda and his priorities. You're the mouthpiece for that. You're the physical embodiment of God's agenda for your child. Uh, but, but you're not trying to make them into your image.

And that's a conversational piece. I think that can get added in again, early and often as possible. And, you know, we don't always, I know I for sure don't do it perfectly the majority of the time. So we need God's help in so many of those conversations.

Yeah. Seems like part of what that sort of assumes, and I think this is the common reality, is that you have the, the individual identity of the child and then the individual identity of the adult. And so, um, what I hear, especially the examples you were giving for an ownership parent is somebody who is, you know, maybe a little bit on the narcissistic side as a parent that they want to, they want to like live vicariously through their, And so there's a, there's a desire to imprint them, not out of real knowledge of the individual child, but really out of selfishness, um, that the parent has.

Like they don't hand that to their children. They've lost any contact with their root structure. And I can't help, but wonder if the identity crisis that we are experiencing across the entire culture, not just in the Christian world is maybe mostly rooted in a lack of family identity. I'm curious what your thoughts are about that.

Uh, I don't really care if my actions impact somebody else in today's culture. And I do think that ironically, that is not unifying us. It's actually dividing us more than ever. We've told everybody, go be whatever you can be. And we have thought that the product would be everybody would be happy in living their authentic selves, but we've actually seen the exact opposite.

And this is part of what I'm trying to understand. And one of the things I really appreciate, um, I was listening to some videos, Jonathan, of you walking churches through so much of the issues regarding gender confusion, um, that are erupting. And I know you have thought deeply about this, um, and have counseled, you know, personally, lots of, um, uh, people who are struggling with gender dysphoria, families that are walking through that challenge.

So, um, this is the defeater. I think this is the, the core obstacle that this generation is going to have with receiving the gospel. And, and I, and I think that there's been like multiple ways that I think I've seen different, um, different thought leaders tried to approach this question. challenge. So there's the, there's the, um, I would say the more evangelistic way of approaching it.

Um, and obviously people that are on, on whatever spectrum they're struggling with. So, so there's, there's a desire to be like more winsome. And then there's, I think this counter move. Um, and, uh, I don't, I don't think it's, I think it's theologically grounded. And this is what I'm really wrestling with. And I know.

Evangelicals are, um, I've heard statistics as low as 20%. Um, so there's, we, the crisis is so immense and, and somebody was asking Peter Till this question and he, he said, well, the reason why evangelicals lose their kids is because of evangelism. And I was like, Whoa, like, and he said, yeah, because the way that you think about your faith and you, you train your children to be empathetic to these, um, different ideas.

And if we continue to send our kids, um, at the same rate into the culture at vulnerable ages, the inevitable result is going to be, we're going to have this horrendous. fall off rate that we, we are experiencing as evangelicals, right? Well, I mean, again, not, not super familiar with some of those statistics, but they're obviously alarming, but they track and they make sense with, uh, you know, I think what you were sharing, you know, I think one of the appeals of, You know, something like Rod's book, you know, the Benedict option of, you know, let's, you know, I'll move on to the same cul de sac and, you know, kind of formally huddle here is that it is responding to, I think, this cultural problem that we're having in our current culture, where, um, the way that children and teens come into an understanding of what is right and wrong looks completely different than it did for our generation and generations before us.

And I try to help parents understand that, uh, the way that you train and teach your children looks very different, right? You're going to be going to scripture, trying to help them understand their faith, but they're going to schools and talking to friends who think that the Bible is, you know, false, that it's not really an accurate recounting of reality.

So let's take gender, right? The way that we talk about gender historically, culture would say it's restrictive, it's repressive, it's oppressive, these, these two binaries, you've got to release yourself from that, uh, old antiquated way and get on the right side of history. And I think, you know. I think the church has to own some of that, because I don't think that the church has done a good enough job of positively portraying gender as a gift of God's creation.

And I think we have a generation now who, because we haven't talked about somebody else is willing to talk about and say, yeah, it's all up for grabs and it can be whatever you want it to be. But that type of authority, no child, uh, really has the capacity in really shouldn't have the capacity to wield on their own.

Then there's, it's a biological concept, you know, um, construct. It's, it's in, it's innate. You know, you can look at people's. DNA, their gonads, you know, there's, it's clear that there's, there's, there's a binary gender within biology. And so these two are, are fighting and I, and I, you know, those of us who believe in scripture, one of the things I guess I, I keep wondering, and the implications of this are what I really want to help you like, help you help me understand, like, So if, if, if the scriptures are saying that, uh, God himself creates gender in Genesis one, um, it's a biblical God designed, uh, concept.

Now that, that, that is so radioactive. To suggest, uh, to individual children who, um, have their entire lives ahead of them and who knows what career path they're going to pick, or if maybe they're called a singleness, there's such huge pushback for actually framing gender in a family way. And I've, I've heard almost no one.

Sometimes we load up the exceptions at the front end and we leave the general teaching and principle way, way, way in the background. And so all we hear are all the exceptions. Uh, but yeah, the, the capacity to be a father and the capacity to be a mother, to have children and to father children, uh, That doesn't get talked about a lot.

It would have been expected that that's the pinnacle of creation. There's something about two binaries, two opposites when they come together are able to fully reflect the image of God. That's the whole point of Adam. Adam cannot be an image bearer of God on his own. God says it's not good that man should be alone.

It creates community. I think it gives us a holistic picture of who the Lord is. It gives us a holistic picture of this is who the Lord is. And this is how he operates in this world. He has designed and created us in his image. And as you were saying, that image bearing capacity for Adam and Eve, the very first words that they have from the Lord is be fruitful and multiply.

Yeah, I agree. And I think, I think that's the, that's a very tricky place for, like you said, our culture to, to think about because I, you know, in a, in a clinic, clinical sense, when you're talking to, let's say an eighth grade girl, who's really struggling with gender identity. And she's in the midst of this social contagion where she sees people identify as queer and identify, you know, uh, females who are identifying as, as male, it seems like if, if in the light of that, and even in the conversations around transition, one of the very odd things that seems to just not be talked about hardly at all is, um, is when, when you go on these, uh, uh, sex change hormones, or you're, you're even, you're, you're, you're You're even, um, really working through this ideology, the primary thing that's being under assault.

If you, it does make sense in some, at some level that if you basically put, uh, boys and girls into, essentially a, um, an environment in which gender is, is really neutralized. And this is what we've been desperately trying to do this in, in our schools and our entertainment. Like we, we're trying to like just level every distinction.

With, with family, there's not, there's not an understanding or an appreciation for the family implications. Um, and, and I, it's like, I just don't see the church bringing that topic into this conversation, like we're, we're still, it seems, I know this is what I'm curious, like, it seems like we're still.

Yeah. Well, I'll come in from this way and I think hopefully answer your question. I do think that there is a significant struggle with family authority and authority in general in terms of how families live it out. And here's what I mean is, In placing all of the authority with the individual, which is what modern culture wants to do.

We live in his world under his rule, and he is delegated. That authority and that power to parents to exercise within the context of the home. So the goodness of authority is that when you live under your parents authority and live under your parents guidance, that's not a negative, that's a positive. So the goodness of me submitting to that is a positive, not a negative.

And I'm not going to allow you to do this. I'm not going to allow you to take that hormone or that puberty blocker. And And if she has grown up in a place where a godly authority is exerted and lived out, the chances for her to submit to that are going to be far greater if she sees it as a good thing.

about the way that God designed this. And the kind of last topic I wanted to kind of explore with you with regards to this, um, is trying to understand. So the Bible has, has an incredibly narrow sexual ethic. I mean, it's like, it's like one man, one woman, after you make the covenant of marriage, you know, for life.

Because part of what obviously, um, it's, you can see it in scripture and, um, but it's part, part of the, our job is to give an answer for the reason why we believe these things. And, um, and so as I've thought about like, what, what was God. Um, attempting to do by creating and insisting on such an incredibly specific narrow sexual ethic where you have one man, one woman, you read through like Leviticus 18 year, you see all the, the, the, uh, the, the prohibitions.

So in the same way that, And this is an argument I hear rarely made. One of the, one of the real tragedies in a, in a culture like that of same sex attraction is that it potentially ends the family line. Like they're, they're the, the ability for that. If you create a culture that celebrates, um, uh, basically alternative Lifestyles of any kind.

Um, and for especially kids and it's, it's interesting, like when you, when you're growing up and you're trying to. Uh, you're thinking about your future. And if, if somebody, there was a, I would say that when I was, um, when I was growing up, there was a, a real effort on behalf of the culture to, to really sort of, um, emphasize the maleness of, that I was experiencing.

And so, yeah, it does seem to me like the Bible is, is trying to enforce a very traditional, um, kind of, uh, structure where, Hey, we're, we're trying to make a world that we're flourishing for these multigenerational families and these, all of these different, um, these different elements, the same, the, the celebration of the, of all the LGBTQ plus families.

The Bible presents a narrow sexual ethic. One man, one woman, covenanted together in marriage, um, for the purpose of portraying the gospel. Ironically though, it's the most narrow sexual ethic, but I think it's actually the ethic that allows for the greatest freedom and pleasure. and satisfaction. The world has promised you don't need any sexual ethics.

And there's numerous books and evidence that backs that up, that women feel taken advantage of in sex, women feel exploited in sex, uh, you see birth rates plummeting, all of the things that you just mentioned. The, the, the people that are happiest in their life with their sex life and with their marriage life are, are people that are following Christ ethic as it relates to sex, being covenanted to one another, uh, in a marital union.

So how would we take that to the next level and say, why does the narrow sexual ethic exclude same sex unions? Because going back to our comment about gender, because what we see in the early pages of Genesis 1 and 2 is that God's design is one biologically gendered male and one biologically gendered female.

I've read the arguments. I think you have to completely reinterpret the biblical record to arrive at a place where you affirm same sex relationships and same sex unions. I just, I don't see it in the picture. I don't think that it's possible. Okay. Yeah, totally agree. And then, um, talk, talk to me a little bit about these, what do you think is happening with this, this, the multiplicity, the Q, the plus, the non binary that what's going on there?

Uh, the idea of gender binary, gender non conforming, gender role non conforming, gender creative, gender expan I mean, there are literally four terms. Hundreds of identities that you could choose from an acronym and I think it's I think it honestly shows the absurdity of sin that there's a simplicity of the gospel that says biological male biological female and culturally in an effort to be whatever it is the proliferation of all of those letters.

Anyone who loses his life or finds his life. Oh, that's a, that's a great context, uh, for that. Well, this is really helpful, Jonathan. Um, I would love for you to share, uh, how people can hear more and, and, uh, you've got, we got grounded in grace, Jonathan's new book, but where, where can people find you online or what we're.

And thank you. I just want to say thank you for waiting in. I know this is like, this is the most difficult, there's probably lots of topics that are a little less radioactive, but man, we need so much more of this. Um, so thank you for waiting in really thinking deeply about scripture, how it's interacting with this part of culture.