¶ Intro / Opening
diving into secular descriptions of parenting and then trying to just tease apart good tactics and bad theology is really an important exercise.
How do we discern, like, wow, those tactics really work, that they sound really good. But all of a sudden you're building your entire life on a bad theology. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the family teams podcast. We're going to do another episode around motherhood. And so I have. I love, of course, looking around the internet for various influencers and trying to understand how we as family teams can interact with a lot of the popular content around parenting in general.
So I am joined by my partner in crime, my wife, April. She's she's zooming in all the way from the other side of the second floor. And then we've got Kristen Netting from the very, very center of Ohio. And then Jess Gagné, who I think Minnesota. Yeah. Yes. Awesome. Thank you all for, for joining us. So we're going to, I want to play a couple videos here.
And especially they're, they're going to talk about, you know, more in the teen realm, but also then of course, in our, our And our marriages, this is a really, really difficult topic to understand. And so I'm always looking for a way to frame this properly. So she, cause, cause what do you do when you're, you're quote unquote, needs aren't getting met or it's really complicated in a, in a marriage when you feel like, okay, there are things that I need to somehow make clear.
And I define it this way because then it's something I can actually assess and I can know if I'm setting one or not. So to me, a boundary is something we tell someone else we will do, and it requires the other person to do nothing. Okay. You guys hear that okay? So a boundary is something that we are going, we're saying we're going to do, and it requires the other person to do nothing.
And it saves us from the frustration and the cycle of, my kid doesn't respect my boundary, or this person doesn't respect my boundary. And to me, the way I think about boundaries is, Someone kind of quote, might not respect my boundary, but if I am setting a boundary that is dependent on what I'm doing and it is not at all dependent on what someone else does, then I really retain a lot of power and I really like that perspective.
So I wanted to like dig into that now in order to like, understand that she gives an example here that I found really interesting and a relationship that you have with your partner or your spouse and a boundary you might have with a teenager. So. Let's start with, I don't know, with your spouse, right? So, let's say, let's start with like a moment of frustration.
Cause I'm like, my husband comes home at like nine o'clock and expects me to like cook dinner then with him. And all of a sudden it's 10 and I'm exhausted and I want to connect too. Right. But. Here's the situation. So I think what we might do is we might say, I really need you to be home by seven. Like, can you get home on seven on a Friday?
You've done it multiple times. You've explained what you want. He's not doing it. What do you do? Is there another lever you can pull to make clear this is a really big deal? I'm not going to back down. And so she's like, here's a, here's what a boundary sounds like. Hey, the last couple of weeks we talked about you getting home at seven or trying to, you keep getting home at nine.
And then, let's say my husband does get home at night, I might still be upset. I mean, I'd be like, this is such a bummer, you know, but I'm not going to feel so resentful. I'm not going to feel so angry because I laid out two situations based on my needs. And either way, I have kind of a path I can walk down that's within my control.
And you're not trying to do this for yourself or your needs. You're trying to actually fulfill what you're both are trying to do for the family. So, so that adds a layer of complexity that I'm just like, does this work in, in a situation in which there's. There's a whole family and maybe lots of people whose needs are trying to get met.
And so I just, I want to understand what this feels like or how you think through this. So, yeah, does anybody want to start diving into this one? I'll start, I suppose. Although this is really a lot to take in and think about in my context. I think to their. To the credit of setting boundaries, which I've never really thought about the household functioning with boundaries.
And, but yeah, I, I, I struggle. She obviously is thinking just about herself. He's obviously in this scenario, just thinking about himself. And so how, how would that work as we're thinking about. Common goals and long term trajectory. Uh, he probably maybe in this scenario doesn't have those things identified.
And so in the family team's context, I just don't know about these like setting boundaries. I do appreciate that the way she talks about it sets her emotional things aside. She's got like overtly reacting in that moment, obviously, and kind of speaking her needs. But. I think, I think, yeah, I think that the, your point, Kristen, yeah, her, a lot of this is, it's assuming a high level, high level of individualism, but also she's trying to not become resentful.
I mean, it's like, it's really hard to imagine because there is a power dynamic that exists when you're on a team and everyone understands that it has to exist and if you choose not to. respect the, the person who's actually leading the team, then, you know, a lot of what you really, the only, the only thing that you have, once you've expressed yourself properly to your coach and tried to get him to understand or her to understand, it's like, you have to switch teams now in a marriage, you can't do that.
Well, I'm kind of with Kristen in that I, I almost like I can't really understand what she's even saying because I don't understand her framework at all. I've never thought of the word boundaries when it comes to my children or my marriage. So I don't know if I'm going to be super helpful in this, but to answer the question of like, what tools do we have in our tool belt about, um, Like not getting resentful.
Then you both understand that that's the goal, that that's the thing you're working towards. And so you, you might have conversations about how to get there or like, which one of you is gonna do this or that so that you can get to the end zone. But it's very much like a collaborative conversation. And conversation I think probably is the key about, uh, like how to achieve that goal or be on that mission.
That I'm holding over someone's head or like, I think one way I really struggle is with manipulation. So I want, I very much in my flesh want to say like, if you don't do this, then I'm going to do this or other way around, you know, like, I, I'm just going to, if you make me feel resentful, then I'm going to, Make you pay for it or something like that.
And a lot of this is like you said, April, it's, it's different. It's a framework problem. So basically the kind of modern Western marriage is we are both, we fell in love and we're, we're, we're in this as individuals to get different needs met from a partner, like that's kind of the framework. And so, and so we, if, if you're, I'm sharing very honestly what, what my needs are, you're sharing very honestly what your needs are.
I, I think this is so different. And part of why I wanted to bring it up is because there is so much conversation boundaries in, in our culture psychologically. And it's in this framework of you're in these relationships to get individual needs met. And I am trying to understand, number one, is that appropriate language for a family team?
Where we celebrate Sukkot, we, we watched this movie called Ushbazin. And in that movie, it's about a couple and they're, it's, it's a modern day movie, but the couple are ultra Orthodox Jews. And basically through the course of the movie, they become completely like their horns just lock over issues and eventually gets so bad.
I think this is really, this is really difficult on families. So that I'm, one of the things I'm teasing out is, is that a necessary part of a structure where this, this could happen? Cause we've all heard situations in which like, you know, a husband goes off the rails. And so just to say that the wife has no recourse ever because they're a team, that seems like it's going too far as well.
But it just seems different than in the context of request and boundary. Then I was just confused of like, well, where does training fit in? If we are a family team and this is our mission, this is where we feel like the Lord's calling us. Then that might look completely different than our next door neighbors.
Not that we're all, anybody's going to achieve the ideal, but in the same way that, again, I think a sports team is a really helpful if you have, if you have a coach who's really underperforming. In some kind of way, there would be an assumption that if, like, is there any place you can go for more training as a coach, like, this is what you really want to do with your life and you really feel you enjoy it, but you you're missing, you know, tools or tactics to help you achieve what you could achieve in this framework.
So I know April, you've thought about this one a lot recently. I don't know if that serves up anything for you. Are you talking about like the older women training the younger women? Yeah. It seems like in, yeah. In any context where, yeah, there there's, you see a husband and wife and. One or the other of them is clearly not progressing.
And maybe even pointing out like, Hey, this is a super selfish behavior. Need to repent of that. Like, it'd be really hard for a wife to be able to say that to a husband and for it to go well. I think it, I think the reason that doesn't go well is because it's not really the, the order that God put down in scripture for us to follow.
And so there's a lot of the older generation might not necessarily be counting this as a priority for their time because we have this retirement culture. We think like as we get older, like we're working towards more and more freedom of responsibility and getting away from people needing us. We're going to get away from our job.
And so the vision, you know, he's like, this is like a huge win win like. You've, you've set a boundary and I kind of like your boundary and I've seen a lot of marriages where this starts to happen, where somebody starts setting boundaries and says, you know, I'd love to spend time with you, but you know, I, I, you know, like, yeah, it's not just a busy night.
Cut, making a covenant that's lifelong is a risky enough without actually having anything that we know that we're aiming at. And so this is why I think we weren't meant to be so confused about that, because there really is no tactic that's going to solve that problem. Like that problem has got to be solved.
I just keep thinking about the lack of continuity or common vision in our communities. And even in. Between closely aligned families, maybe we parent completely different. Our values in and methods of parenting and disciplining and training and whatever are completely different. And it really is a difficult and sticky problem to even have a commonality. I just, I really just long to be in community with other people that have common views and who, you know, can come together and call my husband up. And man, when he is on fire towards something, that is going to be jubilant. Like if like I am right there with Yanni, let's go, let's do it.
Well, we all have different marriages or we're leading our families in different directions. And it's difficult to understate how difficult that's going to make being a community and helping one another in any way. And I think that, and the fact is scripture does give us a ton of details about the kind of family and the kind of kingdom, kingdom culture God wants within a home, but it's something that, because the culture through our obsession with individualism hates that kind of stuff.
Now, this second one, she says something else in the middle of the interview that I wanted to tease out. And it really has to do with, she, she talked about the heart and soul behind. Her whole, her whole method of parenting begins by believing that your child is good. And she explains why it's so important to believe that your child is innately good.
There's like a few triggers I have, and one of them is laziness. And the other is sort of in, in that situation, I'll relate it to sort of like, they come home, they, they get a bad score on a test or an assignment and they blame something exterior to themselves. The teacher didn't communicate clearly. I saved the document, but it didn't save my edits.
Like that's always the first section and parents, it's always so interesting because they'll take this workshop and they'll say, Oh my goodness, like everything feels better in my home. And I'm like, I don't even get to the strategies yet because we underestimate how many of our issues with our kids or any relationship actually comes from not understanding.
But she says what fuels the desire to understand your child is to the, is the theological belief that they're good inside. And I want to say, you guys have to understand, anyone who's listening to this, there's nothing scientific about what she's saying right now. That is a theological belief. You have to have, it is a axiom of faith.
Right? When we are most frustrated with our kids, it's because we've collapsed the two. My kid is just kind of like a shitty kid who doesn't take responsibility versus I have a good kid who is struggling with something. So I think one of the best ways I can be curious about my kids is I'm like, well, why would I do that?
With kind of being an indication of who they are. So let me like say that in a better way. Yes. So you're talking about shame, right? So a behavior is triggering the belief that I am a bad person and I am struggling now with the shame. And so I have to cover up the things that I've done behaviorally, because if I admit that I did those bad things, that that makes me a bad person.
All right. This is the classic, how to get saved without the gospel. How do you somehow overcome the problem of shame? You have to have a theological conviction that you're a good person. So there should be no shame. There is no shame. You are a good person. Well, I just, I do, I do bad things. I just murdered somebody else.
The curiosity to separate, separating behavior and identity. All of those things are right on. I think we all have to do those things, but she does not have the ability to do those things without the theological belief that, that the person is born good. And so now this person does not need to be saved.
Well, I happen to believe that children, that all humans are born with a sin nature. And so. It doesn't take long for it to show up in our little tiny people. We don't have to teach them how to hit or bite or tell their first lie. It happens. And so I think that, like you said, a lot of the things she's saying, like, yes, I believe we should teach our kids to take responsibility for their action.
And no matter how hard we try, we can't bridge that gap. So it just takes a lot of humility to be able to say, I need help. I need a savior. If I'm left on my own, it is not going to be good. I will Look out for number one, I will climb like the claw my way to the top. I will, you know, scratch for survival.
Jesus took that on the cross for us. And so hallelujah, we have like a way out, but we have a way out because someone took our place because there are acts that are shameful. I, I know that that's a very, very nasty thing to say these days, but we, there are things that you can do, a behavior that is shameful and should be dealt a shameful act and it comes from a heart that is, you know, wrestling with sin.
Which is that there is evil and good inside of me battling it out. And ultimately, because of where I come from, because of the fall, that evil, and those evil inclinations are going to ultimately win out unless I'm saved, unless I'm somehow rescued from this state. And certainly at the identity level, where I need to believe that fundamentally I am a, I am a worthy person of love.
And the only reason that you're valuable isn't because of the inside of you. God loves you. God did create and gave you, gave you his image. That makes every human life valuable. But morally, we're, we're morally bankrupt outside of the gospel, according to the scriptures. And our, none of our children are going to escape the identity implications of that, unless they come to, to faith in Jesus and what he did for them on the cross.
And it's very difficult, I think, for so many of us to parse this out because a lot of times they, they share tactics that are awesome. And like I said, two of the tactics she described there, I think are great. Get curious, don't get angry. I think that's such an important. An important statement. And, uh, and by the way, she said, the reason she gets curious is because she knows that her child is good.
I was just immediately brought back to the garden as she was talking about like this shit, like the shifting of blame kind of, of like, Oh, my teacher didn't like Explain this all to me or, Oh, my flash drive, like it didn't save it. And I was just like, Oh my goodness, this is not a new story. Like we are so good about shifting our sin onto, Oh, but it was that person's fault, like clearly it's them.
Like, oh man, you messed up like, bye, like this won't work. So I just think that Genesis, like the gospel, yeah. It just helps clarify that. And yeah, it gives us hope in the midst of yeah, those hearts and issues for ourselves and our kids and families. Man, such a great point. The actual example they used for overcoming shame is the actual example the Bible uses to describe why we have this problem all the way back to the very first chapters of the Bible.
I'm going to enact Genesis 4 through the end of the Bible in order to rescue you. I love you that much. And so, yeah, they're, they're getting back to, they're getting right down to first principles right there in the Bible. They're articulating them the same way the Bible does. And then they are using opposite theological convictions to, to make, make their points or to, to found the, the parenting of children.
I mean, we're really walking them through that cycle over and over as we train them. I, there's one of my children who is so uncomfortable with shame and he, you know, he's a sinner, right? And so he'll do something. He knows he shouldn't. You call him on it and he wants to dance off like, yeah, and leave as soon as he possibly can.
¶ Processing Dr. Becky's parenting advice through a Biblical lens
And so feeling the weight of sin allows us to acknowledge our need for this, for the savior. To take that and to cover us with his blood. If we don't ever feel that, then why would we feel like we needed that? Why would we ever cling to that? And it's just so terrible. I mean, we can see our children sin as soon as they throw their sippy cup the second time.
His righteousness, his righteous record becomes my record. So that when, when there is repentance and belief in the gospel, your child is, is filled with the righteousness of Christ. And so that you can call forth that identity. And that's why we were given the power of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is holy, perfect.
The fact that that came from inside of me, and that was so mean and so bad. Like somebody tell me, where did that come from? Why did I do that? And how do I, how do I repay that debt that I've not, I've done probably damage to hundreds of people now because of this one act, we all do these things. And the gospel is the only way I know to get to overcome any of the real struggles that we create for ourselves.
And so we have to discern what is actually happening in their heart and help them learn how to discern the voice of God versus the voice of the enemy. Is, is God going to tell me that I'm a terrible, awful person and I should, you know, just slink into the corner and be quiet? Or could that possibly be the enemy speaking to me?
And it's our job to take the time and to pray about it, to watch them, to try to understand, to ask good questions, to bring it out so that they can get to the root of it themselves in their hearts and bring those things to light. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for doing this with me. I think, I think what we just did and like diving into a secular, like descriptions of parenting and then trying to just tease apart good tactics and bad theology is, is really just an important exercise.
And so we, we want to be really clear about that and, and try to make these, these determinations and just to understand that when you hear the Assertions in secular theology or psychology, they have to come with theology. Like there, there are basic theological assumptions being made and sometimes they're actually articulated.