Email Deliverability: What Every B2B Marketer Needs to Know

Dave Gerhardt [00:00:00]: You're listening to B2B marketing with me, Dave Gerhardt. Dan Murphy [00:00:17]: All right. Hi, everyone. Welcome to today's session. I don't want to kill too much time because a lot of people are joining and I have two awesome experts here on email deliverability that I want to invite up to the main stage. So let me add Alex and Sara. Alex Fine [00:00:31]: Hey, guys. Dan Murphy [00:00:32]: Hey, Alex. Alex Fine [00:00:34]: Yeah, I'm here in Austin. It's ungodly hot. Dan Murphy [00:00:37]: So there's Sara. We lost you for one second. Sara McNamara [00:00:42]: I lost myself on the screen. I was like, where am I? Dan Murphy [00:00:46]: I know if you, if it's your first time, the backstage it's really easy once you've done it once, but the first time is like, wait a minute, how do I. Am I joining myself or someone going to add me? So, Sara, Alex, thank you so much for joining today. Let's do some intros. You're hearing from some of our audience members here. We have. What do we have? 178 people live so far. That's great and growing. But Sara, tell us a bit about yourself, a little bit your background and how much of an email marketing, sorry, email deliverability nerd are you? Sara McNamara [00:01:14]: I'm an email marketing nerd too, so that works. So I'm currently the rev ops and GTM strategy lead at Vector, a martech company, but previously actually started in email marketing within marketing operations. So really kind of cut my teeth there. That was my intro to marketing operations and then continue to move upwards to more and more strategic engagements. But email continues to be a really important part of everything that we do. It's one of the highest performing, highest ROI channels, whether you're in sales or marketing or customer success all across the revops. Sara McNamara [00:01:49]: Org. Sara McNamara [00:01:50]: So, yeah, I've seen it all. I have a few stories to share too, if we have the time. Dan Murphy [00:01:55]: Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I bet. Sara McNamara [00:01:57]: It's great to be here. Dan Murphy [00:01:59]: It's great to have you here, Sara. Thanks for being part of this. All right, Alex, where are you from background and how much of a email deliverability nerd are you? Alex Fine [00:02:07]: So I am from Atlanta, Georgia, but I am currently in Austin for SAS doc. And yeah, I own and operate an agency called Understory. So we help SaaS companies scale via email, GTM Engineering and paid media. I would say I live and breathe this stuff. It's a massive component of our business and if we don't deliver for our clients, typically it's only because of deliverability. So it's become a core focus for us and it's something that I focus very heavily on myself still and Alex. Dan Murphy [00:02:34]: In talking with Alex and Sara briefly before we started today's session. Sounds like Alex, you have a little bit more experience on the outbound and signal based email, which obviously it's a little bit different than sort of organic or opted in email lists like newsletters, right? Alex Fine [00:02:48]: Yeah, exactly. So outbound tactics, signal based, trigger based could be inbound things that lead to outbound activity. But yeah, primarily that versus newsletters and things like that. Dan Murphy [00:02:58]: Yeah. Cool. All right, one housekeeping item or two. Maybe I'll invent it third, but at least two housekeeping items before we get going here with some questions. First of all, we are recording today's session. You will get the session after. Please join though, because today's session is intended as all of ours are to help you with your questions. Right. Dan Murphy [00:03:16]: So we're going to spend a lot of time here answering questions. I have a few that I have to ask Sara and Alex to kick us off. But please join. And also please use the Q and A panel to ask your questions. It just makes it a little easier. I can go in there and I can do this cool fancy thing where I click show on screen, which I've never done before. I'll be honest, the thing I'm most nervous about today, Sara and Alex is making sure I appropriately add the poll question because it looks amazing on the screen. We can see it and who asked it and we could talk about it and answer it. Dan Murphy [00:03:44]: I'm hoping I can execute that well. But I really want to hear from everybody. Sara and Alex have been gracious enough to dedicate the next 60 minutes to answering your questions on email deliverability. So if you have a question, head over to the Q and A panel, drop it there and we will hopefully get to all of them depending on how many questions there are. But before we do that, I have a few questions that I want to ask Star, I think we can start with you kind of a broader question. But you know, most teams blame low open rates on subject lines. We optimize, we a B test. Right. Dan Murphy [00:04:14]: We spend so much time thinking about the subject line and how that's going to impact our open rate. But when should marketers suspect it's actually a deliverability issues when they feel like their open rate is declining or is too low. Sara McNamara [00:04:26]: So the great news on this is that a lot of tool, this has gotten a lot easier over time. It used to be that you'd have to manually be going through all the stats for every email to try to figure out like, okay, what's going on here. Now, if you have a, like a tool like HubSpot, they actually have a performance and they call it an email health pane that you can go to. So I highly recommend, see if your platform has that out of the box. That'll tell you, like, hey, how are things going? Usually they'll rate you against kind of like the benchmark in your area. So that's a good first place to start. But I think, I think a huge mistake is to look at subject lines and open rates and click through rates rather than unsubscribe rate is a huge one. And in a perfect world, if you can get an unsubscribe reason form on the website, that's awesome because then you can see where there might be misalignment and why people might be unsubscribing. Sara McNamara [00:05:20]: And then the other piece is the bounce rate. If you see that a lot of people are bouncing, go in and see. Usually the email service provider will send you a reason and use that to help determine what's going on there. And it might be something as simple as you have a misconfiguration on a technical basis, or it could be that your emails are flagging spam for some reason. Dan Murphy [00:05:42]: So, Alex, I want to kick it over to you, but before I do, I want to actually ask the audience, could you chat in and let us know what email platform you're using? I think that would help. So our office reference HubSpot, that's what we use. I imagine it's going to be the majority of people that answer. It's been straight hubspots, couple Marketos, Intercom, pipedrive. Sara McNamara [00:06:00]: Wow. Dan Murphy [00:06:00]: A lot of trying to keep that outreach part. Okay. Just helps us, I think, contextualize the conversation a little bit to answer your question. So a lot of HubSpot, I see some pipedrive, a lot of Marketo is probably the second most popular here. Alex, let's kick it over to you. So let me go back to the question. So the question was when teams blame their low open rate on subject lines. Sara was talking a little bit about how obviously that's not the only indicator open rates of low deliverability. Dan Murphy [00:06:25]: But when should marketers really suspect that a deliverability issue might be at play? Alex Fine [00:06:30]: So I'm going to throw a curveball in here. But we don't even track opens or clicks. We only track replies and positive replies. So for us, a good indicator in whether or not you're delivering in the primary inbox is if you found a tactic or an angle that works really well for you. And all of a sudden you see you went from a 7,8% reply rate down to 5, down to 3, down to 1, down to 0.5. Pretty good indicator that you're not landing in the primary inbox anymore. There is a chance that you've, you know, you're going through copy fatigue as well. And it could be a copy related issue that Clay just made a post about this. Alex Fine [00:07:02]: But GTM Alpha, basically where the tactic that you are using is no longer working, but it's also a really good indicator that you're just no longer delivering in the primary inbox and tying that back to subject lines. Something that we do for all of our clients is we mix up the subject line for every single email that we send. So they're always a blend of a couple different variations. So we might have four different variations that basically say the same thing, but they're all formatted differently and personalized uniquely. And what that does is it helps you also just get past spam filters. And spam filters are a massive component of pretty much every enterprise company that you want to sell into these days. So if you can't get past that, there's a good chance you're also going to start landing in spam. Dan Murphy [00:07:42]: Okay, Alex, for the reply rate. So let me ask you, Alex, what tools are you primarily using for email? A lot of it is outbound and signal based. But what are those tools that you're primarily using? Alex Fine [00:07:53]: To be honest, we've migrated all of our clients to Instantly. We've seen a lot of success with it. The reason we use Instantly in particular is because they also have a much better warmup pool than a lot of the other email warmup tools that exist. And that's something everyone should be doing with their inboxes as well. They isolate basically spam inboxes from the warm up pool. So those don't exist and those are the ones that can harm deliverability pretty quickly. So you're in a pool of real senders and real companies that are actually doing quality work versus, you know, a spam cannon that might be sending a million emails a day for an info product or something like that. Dan Murphy [00:08:24]: Yep. Okay, Sara, on the opted in newsletter side, right. So people that you're have opted into your list reply rates. So I know in terms of we were talking about warming up, you know, domain keeping a, you know, good sender score essentially and I don't know if I'm using that term right anymore, but you know, replies actually do matter. How do you think about repeat reply rate and is that a metric that you're using when it comes to deliverability? Sara McNamara [00:08:50]: So this is an interesting question because I feel like replies are often neglected and on the marketing side and sales are ultra important, but I think they aren't taken advantage enough in marketing. Like often I try really hard to discourage any clients from using a no reply email address because then you can't see if someone's replying and like the whole point is to start a conversation. So I would recommend that in terms of replies, I think that try to get a tool like back in the day it used to be Sift Rock, where you can actually see the replies coming in and manage them because I think that's important to not neglect it because those are your most engaged people. So you should have someone reply to them. Dan Murphy [00:09:35]: Okay, all right, I want to try our first Q and A. All right, this is from Aaron. You know, this is probably more a question for Sara, but Alex, feel free to chime in too if this is one that you feel like you could help answer. How have you seen email performance deliverability vary by platform? So we started talking about HubSpot, we talked about Marketo, we talked about Sift Rock, a couple other things. For instance, I feel like I saw a slight improvement switching from HubSpot to Pardot, but I prefer HubSpot in every other way and I don't have enough data to confirm the difference was platform related. Sara, I feel like this one was super right up your alley. Do you have a good answer here for Aaron? Sara McNamara [00:10:08]: Yes. So I would look into the back end of how your server is managed for each platform. So if you're in the Salesforce ecosystem, you tend to be managed across all marketing products for Salesforce, So that can be good or bad. Kind of like Alex talked about earlier. The probe instantly is that they take out anyone who has poor deliverability out of that pool. So the marketing tools, they aren't quite as progressive in that space. What they do offer though is you can buy a dedicated IP address, which I would highly recommend you do because then you could control your own destiny. So I would actually like I saw the comment about switching from HubSpot to Pardot and I would look into like, did you buy a dedicated IP address with Pardot? Because that might actually be why you're seeing better deliverability. Sara McNamara [00:10:58]: It might not be the tool itself and that's most likely the case. Dan Murphy [00:11:02]: There was another question, actually. I don't think someone chatted this in, but I was reading your guide and I had A question. When do you buy a dedicated ip? How many emails are you sending? I think usually the measurement is per month is about how most people would measure it. When do you think is the right tier of how many emails per month you have to send basically to be at a point where you're ready for a dedicated IP address? Sara McNamara [00:11:24]: That's a great question. I mean, I prefer to have it regardless, to be honest with you. Like, I don't like to share with others just because then if they get on a bunch of blacklists, for example, yeah, then that could impact my deliverability and I have zero control over it. So I don't really see it so much as like the amount of emails as how important is it that we land in the inbox? Yeah, like how strategic are we about email? How invested are we in it? And if you invested in it, I would invest in the IP address. Dan Murphy [00:11:55]: And then I guess the natural follow up question there would be like, so not everyone may even be able to afford it. I think I understand the investment argument. Like, hey, if you're really going to do this, do this right. I don't know. I remember last time I bought a dedicated ipa. I forget exactly how much more, but it was significant amount of money more. Was it nothing. If you can't afford it and you're evaluating platforms, how do you evaluate platforms for their deliverability? Like will they tell you? Do they give you a benchmark of their deliverability? Is that something that like in the sales process you should be able to identify? Sara McNamara [00:12:24]: You can ask them. Oh, go ahead, Alex. Alex Fine [00:12:27]: Oh, sorry, yeah, could I chime in? Yeah, please. On the last question too? So when it comes to dedicated ip, Mike, put a comment in here. IP isn't as important as it used to be. It's double edged sword. If you screw up, you're in trouble. I echo that sentiment. So it is a good thing to diversify because like you said, if you have all your eggs in one basket and that basket falls apart, then all your eggs are going to fall out of that basket. So it's good to have a handful of different eggs in multiple different baskets. Alex Fine [00:12:51]: Which is why I actually don't subscribe to having your own IP address because if anything goes wrong, you can end up in a lot of trouble. Now a lot of these sequencing tools these days, they'll rotate IPs and they'll put your inboxes in and out of multiple different IPs. A lot of them rotate on a biweekly basis or something like that, which can substantially help with deliverability. That's what I would personally recommend today, is using a tool that rotates IPs and also one that keeps out spammers. Dan Murphy [00:13:16]: Awesome. All right, Alex, thanks for chiming in. I actually have a question. I hope I didn't lose it, but I do have a question teed up for you. More on the sales side. Let me answer and add it to our screen. This is from Cam. So the question for you, Alex, is when does sales actually. Dan Murphy [00:13:32]: Sorry, you might be able to answer this one too. When sales doesn't care to improve their data hygiene, how can I incentivize them to remove duplicates? Sales claims they need duplicates for multiple location businesses. So I don't know if I understand that use case specifically, but Alex and Sara, as a marketing office person, you probably had experience here incentivizing the sales team to keep their data hygiene clean. It's like updating their CRM hard, right? The incentivizing. I've either of you had, you know, some experience here successfully getting the sales team to update and keep their data clean. Alex Fine [00:14:04]: We do it as one of our services for our agency. So yeah, definitely seen. I mean we use clay and we do a lot of deduping and data hygiene projects to clean up people. Salesforce and HubSpot. So have we seen other teams do it themselves? Occasionally, but usually they just come to us and we do it for them because it's a nightmare of a process if you don't know to do it. Dan Murphy [00:14:25]: Yeah. Okay. Sara McNamara [00:14:27]: I think it depends upon your sales kind of culture as well. I've had some clients where sales leadership is like, hey, I'm having SDRs like spend all this time getting this data and so that they don't enter it into Salesforce, then I'm losing money. And so they will put it into their like kind of not right into the compensation structure but into like their performance structure. If you are not filling in the data as you get it, then we're losing money and so you're not going to be viewed as good as others. Dan Murphy [00:14:58]: Yep, that's fair. We talked about reply rates already. Let's do this one right here. It's from Barb. Does this discussion apply only to large emailers or do some things also apply to onesie2zone mailing solopreneurs? I'm not quite sure what that part means, but I think it's smaller businesses that are doing have a smaller email list. Sara and Alex, does your advice apply to a certain threshold of business size or does it apply across the Board. Alex Fine [00:15:26]: I would say it always applies, but it really applies more during automation. So if you're sending manual emails one or two at a time, you really don't have much to worry about, to be honest with you. Unless you're sending total spam in those one or two emails, then you should be completely fine. And honestly, your deliverability is going to be best if you're sending those manual emails one or two at a time. Dan Murphy [00:15:44]: And those manuals be coming from your Gmail account, your co prospecting or your outreaching. Alex Fine [00:15:49]: Yeah, they could be coming from anywhere. Yep. Dan Murphy [00:15:51]: Whereas in a tool outreach, a HubSpot pardot, those are all automated systems. Alex Fine [00:15:56]: Yeah, it really gets tricky when you start adding automation. That's really where it gets tricky if you're sending manual emails. Business as usual, keep doing what you're doing and honestly you're going to see the best results from doing manual outreach. Dan Murphy [00:16:07]: Yeah. Sara, anything to add there? Sara McNamara [00:16:09]: Yeah, I would say the one thing I would add is that email service providers are sensitive. So like for example, way back in the day when I was working at an agency, we had someone approach wanting to be a customer. They're like, we need you to fix our IP sending reputation. And what they had done was they had abused each IP address and they kept trying to switch it out. But the problem is that the email service provider is smart enough to know that that's that same business that's trying to buy the new domain and the new IP address, all stuff. So they would auto flag them, which to me is wild, but they would just be able to see, you know, who owns this domain. Oh, it's the same person or the same business. And then they would auto, they're like, this is an abuser. Sara McNamara [00:16:56]: So I don't say that to raise an alarm, but to give an example of I try to be thoughtful whenever I can because that's my reputation and I don't want to start flagging myself. You know, it's like, is it really worth it to just send some stuff that's kind of like spammy? I'd rather just be thoughtful across the board if I can for sure. Dan Murphy [00:17:17]: Okay, let me go to the next question because I think I got a good one here. I'm probably going to mispronounce your name. Sushanda. Sushanda. I think it is. The question is, do you prefer to include a unsubscribed link versus saying if you don't want to hear from me reply? No, thank you. Alex Fine [00:17:33]: I have a lot of thoughts on this. Dan Murphy [00:17:35]: Okay. Far away. Alex Fine [00:17:36]: We've tested a lot. From what I've seen actually the link with newsletters is that's the way to do it with newsletters. But when it comes to outbound email and you're trying to prospect the no thank you for multiple different reasons, can really increase your sender reputation. The reason why is because one, whether it's an unsubscribe link or any other link, it's a link. And having a link in an email, whether it's an open tracking pixel, a click tracking pixel, an unsubscribe link, a link to a resource, anything like that, the way the ESPs actually see it is they think of it as a sign of potential phishing so it can become suspicious. So I would avoid using a link for outbound emails. Now the reason I would put an opt out like no thank you or something like that is because it also increases your sender reputation. So people replying to your emails, whether it's no thank you, whether it's a catchphrase that you have, it's an opt out message, something like that, it's showing ESPs that people are replying and actually replying to your emails, which helps your sender reputation. Alex Fine [00:18:32]: So whether you're getting opt outs or positive emails in return, regardless, you're enhancing your sender reputation and you're not going to get flagged for phishing. Dan Murphy [00:18:40]: Sneaky. It makes sense. I hate it from the experience standpoint of receiving those emails and having me respond. But I do understand the logic of it. Alex Fine [00:18:47]: Yeah, totally. Sara McNamara [00:18:48]: Alex is right. I would just add for marketing you got to be careful legally, like in most interpretations of most compliance laws, you cannot require someone to reply to unsubscribe. So in that case, like of course, you know, work with your legal group or person or look at where you're emailing to and look at that compliance and the laws there. But that's why you typically see an unsubscribe link in a marketing email because it has to be easy to unsubscribe and easy usually doesn't fall within like you have to respond to someone. Dan Murphy [00:19:21]: I'm not even sure if it's possible to not have an unsubscribe in HubSpot. Like you have to have an address. Alex Fine [00:19:25]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Dan Murphy [00:19:26]: And I think even if you're sitting a basic and you have to have a unsubscribe. Right, yeah. Alex Fine [00:19:30]: HubSpot. I will say this and Sara, I don't know if you agree with me on this, but I will say HubSpot is designed for marketing emails. It's not designed for outbound email. Yeah, people are using it for outbound email. Should be using a different tool. Dan Murphy [00:19:41]: Yeah. Sara McNamara [00:19:41]: Yep. Alex Fine [00:19:42]: And I'm a HubSpot partner and I'm still telling you that I love HubSpot. Dan Murphy [00:19:45]: I totally agree. But also I think sometimes we run into this distinction, an outbound versus a marketing email. A marketing email doesn't have to be like a heavy HTML heavy designed email. If you can send plain text emails in HubSpot, just send it to your opted in list. Right. Like if you're uploading a new list that is not opted in and you're going to send a mass email, that's where you're going to run into some issues with deliverability. But I think again, just sometimes get that distinction. Like you can send a newsletter, can be plain text if you really want it to be, you know, follow up email, you can ask for a reply. Dan Murphy [00:20:15]: We do it all the time in our HubSpot emails. We ask people to reply for that very reason of improving our sender score. And that's a legitimate way of using it. We just don't send it to people outbound. We send to people that have opted in. Alex Fine [00:20:26]: Yep, you're spot on. Dan Murphy [00:20:28]: Cool. All right, next one, we're going to get into some bots. So from Alina, how do you deal with security bots? And I've been seeing this more and more, especially in HubSpot, how do you deal with security bots? Opening and clicking emails? I know for instance, HubSpot has like a little like open rate calculator, like how much the open rate with bots and minus bots, I have no idea the logic behind how they do that, but it seems to be something that's happening more and I imagine it's only going to become a bigger part of every email marketer's, you know, thinking and headspace as bots reading emails and stuff for them. So how do you deal with this issue? Alex Fine [00:21:07]: So that's why we don't track opens and clicks. Dan Murphy [00:21:09]: That's the number one reason. Alex Fine [00:21:10]: Yeah, well, that's why we don't track open clicks, because it's going to happen no matter what. Right. If you're sending to an enterprise that uses spam filters, it's going to show up. And there's so many different ways bots can show up on clicks and opens, which is why we don't track it and why I don't think it's a good indicator anymore of deliverability or the quality of your campaign. And that's why we switch completely to replies. Positive replies is the only metric that we actually track. And we also track replied opportunity. Sara McNamara [00:21:35]: I would say a lot of the platforms now are trying to address this. Like they're trying to have their own little algorithms to pick up IP addresses or different, like bots that are out there. I would say in addition to that, just look for any kind of trends. Like if you see, I like to go into my database and see if someone is opening every single email, but they're never clicking through, never responding, and their email address looks a little funky. Usually that is some kind of like honeypot or security bot. So just look for unusual behavior like that. Alex Fine [00:22:10]: And it's a shame too. Cause I remember when I was in enterprise sales, I was selling to like the biggest corporations in the world. So it was low velocity, but super high ACP deals. And there was this one guy who clicked 97 times on one of my emails. I was like, no way. Of course, that's a lot. And he clicked 97 times. But then I get an email from someone that works for him because he was like, in the C suite at a Fortune 500 company. Alex Fine [00:22:32]: So I was like, of course it's fake. You know, someone in the C Suite Fortune 500 company, it's not going to click 97 times. But I get an email, I said so and so requested that I reach out to you to talk about tax compliance software. And I was like, really? I was like, how did you get my information? He goes, well, he's been reading your email and sending it to us for the last month. I was like, oh, so he did click 97 times. But you can't do that anymore. It doesn't work anymore. That was about three years ago. Dan Murphy [00:22:55]: @ this point, he's been sending the same email multiple times, selling the team. He's a C suite. And he's telling his team to look at it. And he had to send it that many times. Alex Fine [00:23:02]: And team, well, it was tax compliance. And he was worried about a mandate that was coming down in a particular country that they operate in. And he was like, guys, how are we going to fix this? Guys? What are we going to do? Guys? Dan Murphy [00:23:11]: Yeah. Come on, team, get moving. Alex Fine [00:23:13]: Yeah, exactly. But it doesn't work anymore. Dan Murphy [00:23:18]: Yeah, yeah, those are the good old days. Exactly. We will probably not live in those times again. All right, next question is from Stacy. Any tips to get around company firewalls to get my emails delivered? Alex Fine [00:23:30]: Sara, you want me to go first or you want to go first? Sara McNamara [00:23:32]: Don't spam people. Most IT groups, at least in my experience. Alex, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this and your experience. But most of them will take the approach of like looking for spam terms and like weird phishing behavior. And then otherwise they're not going to add you to their spam list unless someone requests it. So my biggest advice is just to try to avoid really irritating people. So that's where a lot of these other pieces come in. Right? Like make it easy to unsubscribe. Alex Fine [00:24:01]: Yeah. Sara McNamara [00:24:02]: Make sure that your message is not offensive, that you're not over messaging people. You know, keep an eye on those metrics. If you start to see someone mark you as spam at a company and then you start to see other people, then you're, you know, it's only a matter of time before people start running into it and being like, hey, get these, you know, get this company on our block list. Dan Murphy [00:24:22]: Can I actually jump in, Alex, before you answer and just ask a really simple, stupid question, But I think it's actually really important to define what is spam? Alex Fine [00:24:29]: Like, what would you consider spam? Sara McNamara [00:24:31]: An email with very little value. Dan Murphy [00:24:32]: Both say don't spam people is your first reaction. So I just want, I think it actually is relevant to the audience to kind of define it a little bit because I almost like, I think we all almost at this point have our own little definitions of what spam and what's not. And I would love to hear from both of you what, how you define spam. Alex Fine [00:24:45]: In my opinion, if you're reaching out to a company that has 5,000 plus employees and you reached out to a hundred different employees and sent the exact same message and that message never contained any value in the first place. That's spam. Sara McNamara [00:24:56]: Yeah. Dan Murphy [00:24:56]: And it's not updated. Alex Fine [00:24:58]: Correct. Sara McNamara [00:24:58]: If I had to put it in a sentence, it's like not relevant, not valuable, over communicated. Dan Murphy [00:25:05]: Okay, I love that. Alex Fine [00:25:06]: That's a great, great definition. Dan Murphy [00:25:08]: Yeah. Alex gave the example, you gave the definition in that with your answer. It was kind of perfect. Alex, I cut you off. What were you going to say in response to this question about? Alex Fine [00:25:16]: I don't remember, to be honest. Dan Murphy [00:25:19]: Sorry, I actually did not go fast about company firewall. Okay, cool. Moving on. Sara McNamara [00:25:23]: I would say, actually one other piece I'd have on the firewall. You can include a section like for example, say if you're running a newsletter, like for my newsletter, when people subscribe, I have an auto send that's like, hey, if you want to make sure you get these emails, reply, and, you know, whitelist me in your thing. So that makes people self aware of like, okay, if I want to get these, I need to make sure that I'm setting myself up to get these emails. And if I see it marked as spam, I want to get it out of the spam folder and things like that. So I find that can be helpful too. Dan Murphy [00:25:56]: Let's talk subdomains. So subdomain or secondary domains, which do you prefer for email campaigns? And how many emails per domain should we create? It's like a riddle. Alex Fine [00:26:08]: I'm a big believer in secondary versus subdomains because sub domains are tied back to your primary domain. So secondary domains, meaning they have no association with your primary domain, is always the way to go. And you can do some variation of. We'll use Exit Five. So instead of exitfive.com, it'd be try exitfive.com, get exitfive.com, something like that. We also recommend no more than three inboxes per domain. The reason for that, there's not like a rhyme and reason on the actual number, but the reason is to diversify. So if you have a hundred inboxes associated with one domain and they're each sending 15 emails a day or something like that, and that domain develops a better reputation, all 100 of those inboxes are now in jeopardy versus if you're spreading out the volume across multiple different domains and inboxes, you're increasing the longevity of your campaigns and deliverability because you're diversifying across those alternative domains versus just having all your eggs in one basket. Alex Fine [00:26:57]: Again, the name of the scam really is don't put all your eggs in one basket. Dan Murphy [00:27:01]: When you say inbox, Alex, do you mean like [email protected], [email protected] like, those are two different inboxes. Alex Fine [00:27:08]: Yep, exactly. Dan Murphy [00:27:09]: And then what about if we use like now? Now I'm just getting my own personal advice here from Alex. Sorry, but hopefully this is relevant. Everyone, what if we use something like we always send our emails. Hi, exitfive.com it's a group, right? And all of our inboxes are attached to it. We all receive as a team those responses and then we can actually, we do a lot of replies, a lot of conversations that way. Is that a no no in your book or is that another. Is that a third inbox? Alex Fine [00:27:33]: It depends. It depends what you're trying to do. Like, if you're emailing on behalf of a sales rep or an SDR or something like that. I would always recommend using their actual name or some variation of the name. So if people wanted to look them up on LinkedIn, they could. That's also why I don't recommend using fake aliases on LinkedIn, email, anything like that. You should be using real people. But for marketing, what you're doing is totally fine. Dan Murphy [00:27:53]: Yeah, okay, I feel better now. Alex Fine [00:27:56]: Yeah, I don't know what's your take? Sara McNamara [00:27:58]: Yeah, I agree with you 100%. I would just add as long as you are operating in good faith, that advice will work. If you tank, you know, you're like one domain and you think you can just move to another, it's still tied to your business and they will pick up on that, especially if you're a repeat abuser. So just keep that in mind. Like, I agree with your statement about it's like you want to have the multiple domains to work off of, but just please no one use that as an excuse to be like, oh, I'm just going to like send a bunch of junk out of one and then switch to the other. Cause that will not work long term. Dan Murphy [00:28:37]: Yep, a hundred percent for us. A hundred percent of our list. If you, if we're emailing you, you opted in on a form on our website to get it. So good to know from a best practice in point. All right, next question's from Brian. We're pretty link heavy in everything we send. What are good alternatives since that may affect deliverability? So there's too many links. I know, images definitely, but just too many links affect deliverability. Dan Murphy [00:28:59]: I'm going to guess yes. And then what would be some good alternatives for Brian if he's really link heavy today with his emails? Alex Fine [00:29:05]: So the answer is yes, it's absolutely going to affect your deliverability. We run a test on this honestly every single quarter because we're always hoping that one day links will be okay to send and that way we have way more effective email once in a, in an email campaign. With that said, as of right now, it's still a big no. No. So something that you can do to fix that is you can tease whatever resource you want to send that email. So does it make sense if I send over this guy? Does it make sense if I send over my calendar link, does it make sense? You know, something like that and you get the reply which is good for deliverability. And then you can also still get the exact same concept. The other thing I'll say, which isn't related to the webinar, is you can use LinkedIn instead and send whatever things you want. Alex Fine [00:29:45]: With LinkedIn you have 100% inbox rate. So. Dan Murphy [00:29:48]: Yep. Sara, any thoughts? Sara McNamara [00:29:51]: Yeah, I would agree. I think marketing is a little trickier. I do like what I like that I'm seeing more and more is the intersection of sales and marketing. So I like to run experiments like that. Like, hey, if I not for a newsletter, like someone asked about a newsletter, I think that would be hard because you tend to link out to a lot. So I wouldn't want someone to respond for each link. But if it is a shorter email, I like to try stuff like that and I've seen some success with that. Newsletters. Sara McNamara [00:30:16]: I would say the biggest thing there is to just have a really valuable newsletter because I do think that having a high open rate, like people interacting with that email and reading through it thoroughly and even in a lot of cases responding because they enjoyed it and they want to contain the conversation that can help work against some of the negative points for the links. Dan Murphy [00:30:38]: Okay. In our example, I'll just use it to hopefully draw an answer that's relevant to everybody. We have a section for jobs and so we have a job board and right now we link to maybe just in that section alone, maybe 8 to 12 jobs. So would your recommendation, Alex or Sara be for us if we said, hey, we want to increase our deliverability, we want to make an effort here? Maybe the suggestion would be we'd list the jobs with a quick explanation of what they are, the title, location. Hey, click here to check out our job board and it's one link that goes to our job board and lists out those jobs that you can explore versus an individual link to each individual job listing. Right. Alex Fine [00:31:19]: I'll defer to Sara on this one, but to be honest with you, that sounds like the right move to me is list them out of text and then have one master link. Also, these are all opt in people, right? Dan Murphy [00:31:29]: Yep, they are. Alex Fine [00:31:30]: Yeah. So that's going to help a ton. It's going to make a huge difference. Sara McNamara [00:31:33]: If they're all opt in on a technical basis. Yes. Like I feel like I'm a broken record on like just don't focus on just one metric though. If you do that and then the ESP is like it, but then you piss off your audience and they start to unsubscribe, well then you defeated the whole purpose. So look across all the metrics. If you make a change, see how people interact with that. If they don't mind, then it's a win. If they do mind Then it's like what's the point? Dan Murphy [00:32:01]: Yeah, if we wanted to test that it would be incremental improvement, very small impact probably in our case. But okay, hopefully that helps everyone else too. The next question, it's like a step away from email deliverability but I think this hopefully so relevant because it's you know it's about ask for replies. But what are B2B sales list email strategies to get more responses? Alex, we'll start with you because I know you talked about this is like the key metric that you're using to measure performance. What are some maybe basic overview ideas on asking for replies? Alex Fine [00:32:32]: Extreme granularity and segmentation is critical. So you need to be sending relevant emails to the right people. Don't send a general message to seven different Personas and expect a great response. It's not going to work. And then also you need to really be validating and cleaning those lists. So not only checking for valid email addresses but if they're catch alls also validating for those as well. There's a handful of tools you can use out there. We personally use a waterfall and clay with lead magic finding L cross bio icps and then we validate every single thing whether it's catch all or not with bounce band. Alex Fine [00:33:03]: So we're dump validating every single thing to make sure before we ever add it to an email sequence. But we're also segmenting and personalizing based on relevance. Dan Murphy [00:33:12]: Is there any strategies that you would suggest for getting more responses? Sara McNamara [00:33:17]: Yeah, I mean I would agree with a lot of that. It's another area where sales I treat sales differently than marketing and I'm glad this person specified. Yeah because in marketing you'd want to be careful in the marketing automation platforms about like Alex mentions like send like almost one to one emails. But the way that the marketing automation platform will measure that is if you try to send a one to one email and it bounces well it's 100% bounce rate and then it'll get upset about it. So this is where the tool that you're using matters. Like I know someone was asking earlier like what about HubSpot for sales emails? That's another reason why you might like look at the tool and make sure that it's the most appropriate tool and best positioned to get you that deliverability to get you the responses. Dan Murphy [00:34:00]: Awesome. Okay, next question. This one is from Taryn. Best strategies to re engage contacts that were not being sent emails due to low engagement. What is your best strategy I guess to in this case warm these Low engage contacts back up. Sara McNamara [00:34:16]: When you say not being sent emails, do you mean not receiving or that you're avoiding sending them emails? I see Taryn in the chat, so maybe they can respond. Yeah, because the answer might vary depending upon that. Dan Murphy [00:34:29]: What do you got, Taryn? Not sending. Sara McNamara [00:34:32]: I would say you could have sales send a one to one email to number one because then you can send a more personalized one to one email. You don't have some of those downsides you have within the marketing automation platform. And I would send them a high value asset in that email too and see if you can then get them to like say if it's like you know, a high value report that has a marketing form, then they'll go check out that report, they'll fill it out and then hopefully that either either they can update their email address or update their information or they just start to be marked as re engaged. You know, they aren't stale. That would be one of my first approaches. What do you think, Alex? Alex Fine [00:35:16]: This is a tricky one. Honestly, I don't have a great response. I'll stick with your response. I just don't really understand the question that well, to be honest with you. Dan Murphy [00:35:24]: I'm going to guess I probably shouldn't just guess, but I know like for instance, like a lot of tools like HubSpot, you can decide not to engage. Not to email though. Engage is just a checkbox. And so I'm going to guess Tara might be not sending those people who have low engagement using that setting for her more recent newsletters or something. And now it's like, well there's 10,000 people here, like what should I do and should I reject them? But Tara, feel free to chat and give us a little more context and maybe we can circle back to it and try to give you a more comprehensive answer. Although yeah. Sara McNamara [00:35:57]: I think it depends. Dan Murphy [00:35:58]: Why? Sara McNamara [00:35:59]: If it's that the content isn't resonating, then I would say change your content or get them on a different, you know, list. It depends. Dan Murphy [00:36:07]: Yeah. Okay, next question from Max. Again, I do think this fits in the bucket. It's one step removed from deliverability, but it does matter. AB testing. So what are some starting points to find stronger results in Subject line A B testing. Sara, let me ask you first, is there a threshold to how many contacts that you should have before you actually get meaningful results? A critical mass that you need in your list to get meaningful results from Subject line A B testing. Sara McNamara [00:36:32]: Usually you want at least 30%. Even more so I would like to at least have the email going to a thousand people. Otherwise, I think it relies too much on personal preference. It's not a big enough sample. The biggest mistakes that I see in a B testing that I would avoid would be, number one, AB testing. Just to AB test. And then there's no plan on what to do with the information because that's just a waste of everyone's time. And it could actually impact your deliverability. Sara McNamara [00:36:59]: Because if you're a B testing with bad subject lines, then it's like a percentage of your audience is consistently getting those. So always have a reason why you're doing it. And what. Like, what do you do then with that information? And then also make sure that you have a large enough audience to actually statistically be meaningful. Alex Fine [00:37:16]: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you 100% on the number. The number that we actually use as a rule within our agency is 500 people minimum in a test. So if there's not a minimum of 500 people, you don't know what you're actually testing. You could just have some outliers in there that like a certain word better than others. So I agree with you on that number. In terms of a good place to start, what we typically do is something relevant in the subject line and also something about the reason that we're actually reaching out. Usually no more than three or four words. Dan Murphy [00:37:43]: Okay, three or four words. That's your. Your math. Very short or something very short. Capital. Capital letters. No capital letters. Any tricks like that. Alex Fine [00:37:52]: We don't do any capitals. The whole point, what you want it to look like that. I don't remember who said this, but I'm gonna say on air right now that I did not say. This is not my original thinking here, but someone said that when you're sending an outbound email, it should look like a conversation that's happening internally within your company, and that's going to get people to read it the most. And we've lived by that and it's worked really well. Like I said, I don't remember who exactly said that. I wish I could give credit to somebody here, but we use that and it works really well. Sara McNamara [00:38:17]: But don't send it. Don't send a meeting invite, though. I have to. I have to give that a try. Dan Murphy [00:38:24]: No FWD or RES in the subject line, right? Alex Fine [00:38:28]: Yeah, yeah. So like, for example, if you're selling a. A tool that tracks forecasting for a company or something like that, some sort of SaaS product that helps forecasting, you could say, like quarterly earnings, and then the name of the company or the name of the person, something like that, you know. Dan Murphy [00:38:42]: Yeah, I kind of seen that as a trend if you think about it from that lens. Like people writing subject lines and definitely emails I pay attention to. I also like, we're a little bit off topic. This is probably hopefully relevant to everybody still. Like, I also like when you write your email, your marketing email or outbound, like write it as if you're just emailing a friend, right. And explain what you want to explain to them. Like you're just pick a friend and write literally you can put their name like Dear Allison. Right. Dan Murphy [00:39:06]: And then you just. Or hey Allison. You probably wouldn't say Dear Allison, right? Here's a good example of, of how your copy changes. That's another way of a little check to help you write really good copy in your emails. Sara McNamara [00:39:15]: I think that's going to become more and more important too. Especially the more that people use AI to write content, the more repetitive and kind of like inflexible that it's going to come across. So the more casual within reason that you can be like the more conversational, the better it's going to stand out for sure. Dan Murphy [00:39:35]: All right, question from Peter. Let's see if we can answer this one. With the move to permission based email marketing, I think that means opted in email list. I'm not totally sure, but that'd be my guess. How would you approach building a new audience from scratch, a new list of contacts and obviously I think we're thinking about how do we build a list that we can send and deliver to regularly and have high deliverability. Alex Fine [00:39:59]: I personally feel like that list should come from another source outside of outbound, right? Probably some sort of marketing campaign. Maybe it's with paid ads, maybe it's with events, something like that. To build that list of opt in people and then you should be reaching out to them via email. I don't know, maybe I'm missing the mark here. Sara, what do you think? Sara McNamara [00:40:15]: Yeah, I mean I think the biggest thing is like I think a lot of people think about how do I build a list. And instead I would recommend start with what kind of content do I want to put out there? Why is it valuable to my target audience? And then in my experience the people will come. Like if you put content out there that's good, especially with marketing audiences. They love to share with each other and be like, oh, I found this awesome newsletter. You can get a lot of kind of more organic referrals and continue to build that list. Like for example, you could put paid ads out there and you can get someone to sign up. But then if your content is not good, they're going to unsubscribe or be unengaged. So I'd focus on the content first and then like Alex mentioned, once you get that kind of keyed in, then you can put some like paid ad spend behind it, social ad spend, and get people to that page and aware of it. Dan Murphy [00:41:07]: I'm going to chime in on this one because I definitely have thoughts for Peter. Everything you both said, I would just take it one step further and build it out as a little formula for you. I would start with the one key key offer. I think if you feel like it's a good enough offer that you can gate and get people in, I would focus on go interview your customers, figure out what they care about, what they want to know. I'll give you an example for us. We launched our B2B salaries report. So we actually have a huge audience. We're able to get a bunch of people to respond with salary data and information. Dan Murphy [00:41:36]: We did analysis, made 1200 people respond, analysis of like what they actually like, benchmarking different titles, roles. That report became like a 30 page PDF for the breakdown of locations and, and everything. Like that's a great offer for our audience. We're putting LinkedIn ads behind that. We put a gate up, we ask for some information to provide that to people and then we have a welcome sequence from that of people that are coming in. We welcome admin and we kind of introduce them to our newsletter. And that's the right way. I know it's not like a 2025 AI take. Dan Murphy [00:42:06]: It's probably like a 15 year old strategy, but it still works and it works really, really well. Especially if you have a good brand, people trust you. So that's the way I would probably do it. And sorry for jumping in here. I'm not supposed to be the expert today, but I wanted to answer this one because I just feel like that's good advice. Works, you know, so cool. Sorry. All right, I'm gonna shove and bring this one back to both of you. Dan Murphy [00:42:27]: So this one's for Michael. The question is, after how many unopened emails would you consider a lead to be disengaged or uninterested, particularly for campaigns sending it to a group of 2,000 cold leads. This one has Alex written all over it. I am trying to reduce the amount of dead leads I am chasing, which might harm my sender reputation. This one is TDEF for you. Alex, what do you got for us on this one? Alex Fine [00:42:50]: We will never send an email sequence that's ever three emails, ever. And the reason for that is one, you can reach more contacts if you're sending less volume to each individual prospect because you can send more prospects because you're limited on the amount of emails that each inbox can actually send, not the amount of contacts, so that's number one there, but two. Also, if you've sent someone three emails and they haven't responded to you, what makes you think they're going to respond to the fourth or the fifth? What they're probably going to do is market a spam and say, stop messaging, stop emailing me, you're pissing me off. So that's my answer. Dan Murphy [00:43:18]: Yep. I always respond on the third email. Sorry, not interested or nothing. Alex Fine [00:43:23]: Yeah, exactly. Three is enough. Dan Murphy [00:43:25]: Yep. Sara, do you anything to add to this one? Sara McNamara [00:43:28]: It's funny, the number three came to my mind as well and I'm like, why is three the magical number? I don't know. I don't remember why that is. Dan Murphy [00:43:36]: Yeah. Sara McNamara [00:43:36]: But I think maybe it's just an experience. It's just if they haven't opened by the third email, chances are they aren't going to. Dan Murphy [00:43:43]: Sure. And I think actually if I could just add to this question, flip it a little bit. So I. I'm with you and I hear you're on the cold outbound side. Sara, how many emails should. Because I actually recently got educated. We just hired someone to come in and help us with some of our email automation. How many emails do you think should be like in a welcome sequence? So now we're talking about the opted inside. Dan Murphy [00:44:01]: For instance, maybe the example I gave people opt in an offer. We want to get them, you know, to take action. Is it three? Is it more? Where do you think is? I know it depends but like what kind of guardrails would you give for like an opted in welcome sequence? Sara McNamara [00:44:14]: I'm going to be really annoying and say as many as you can have valuable content for. What I see happen a lot, especially in marketing is people will be like, well we need five emails. Because somewhere they said it should be five emails but then they don't have the content behind it. Dan Murphy [00:44:32]: Yeah. Sara McNamara [00:44:33]: So then it's like you're just sending a half hearted email again. I go back to what's the point? Because you could lose subscribers like once they unsubscribe, they're gone. So I would look at. Okay, I'll start with how much content can I create before I launch this and maybe you start with just one. One email and see how that goes. And then continue to build out, like, oh, they love this email. They'd probably love this other content offer too. And then build that in later. Sara McNamara [00:45:00]: I would again focus on, like, the subscriber experience more than the. Like, a random number to hit. Dan Murphy [00:45:07]: Yeah. Some metric that someone somewhere in a webinar said. Sara said five emails. We gotta add five emails. But what if the third, fourth, and fifth email is just useless and then it doesn't help in any way? Yeah. Cool. We have time for maybe like, two more questions. I'm gonna jump back into the Q and A panel and just pull out a few things that might make sense. Dan Murphy [00:45:27]: The question's been great. This has been awesome. I know I probably owe Alex and Sara. Like, they're probably going to invoice me after this. Just go through some of the value that I've gotten so far from here. Alex Fine [00:45:37]: The Last Exit Five webinar. I did. I got a box of macaroons and that was great. Dan Murphy [00:45:42]: Oh, you did? Alex Fine [00:45:43]: Yeah. Dan Murphy [00:45:43]: Wait, from us? Alex Fine [00:45:44]: Yeah, from you guys. Dan Murphy [00:45:45]: It's probably Allison or Anna who are on backstage here that made that happen. But that's awesome. Cool. All right, this question's from Martin. For a new company, how concerned should we be about domain health? We were given advice to warm up our domain and not send more than a few hundred emails a day. But how do you start increasing so we don't have roadblocks of back sending in workflows? Alex Fine [00:46:09]: Can I jump in here on this one? Dan Murphy [00:46:10]: Yes, please. Sara McNamara [00:46:11]: Go for it. Alex Fine [00:46:12]: As a new company, do not send any cold emails from your primary domain. Only if you're doing very manual outreach and it's like one or two or maximum five people. Other than that, use your email just consistently over the next couple years to, you know, reach out to customers, partners, employees, things like that, to build your sender reputation. But if you're going to start cold emailing, definitely do not use your primary domain, especially as a new company. That's the quickest way you can get blocked forever. Sara McNamara [00:46:37]: Yep. Alex Fine [00:46:38]: So, and to answer your question about how do you get past it, you have to set up alternative domains. Definitely don't send hundreds of emails on those domains either. Send, you know, maybe 50 a day per domain and break it out between three inboxes. And that's going to be your best bet for marketing. Sara McNamara [00:46:54]: If you look in my guide that I think Allison shared in the chat, it has, like, a little example schedule that you could follow. But I would Say, my blanket statement would be just start slow, see how your emails do and continue to build out from there. Like usually you start with like a thousand or two and you want to start with the emails that you feel the most confident will land. So we're talking very friendly customers or very friendly people who you know will get the email, who you feel will interact with the email. Don't just pick like a random old list from somewhere or any kind of cold list. And then usually you kind of double and triple over time. But I would say do not rush it. Like Alex said, don't use your main domain and then also do not rush it. Sara McNamara [00:47:43]: Cause it's hard. It'll take you much more time to undo, in my experience than to just do it the right way. Dan Murphy [00:47:49]: Awesome. I am going to attempt to share my screen and show this guide that Sara put together and is ungated. She built it in notion. We've shared the link in chat, so hopefully you saw that from Allison. It's pinned at the top of the chat. But she just referenced this warmup schedule, which I believe Sara, I think it's the next section now. Yep, here it is right here. So this is Sara, what you're talking about, the warmup schedule, week by week, with volume, a description of the audience, and some additional notes to help you gear up. Dan Murphy [00:48:22]: So this is in the chat. You can go take this and seal this. I think it was Michael might have asked the last question. You can take this and go use this. This is Sara's recommendation for how to warm up your email. Sara McNamara [00:48:33]: Yeah, and it depends on your database too. Like this is the best kind of blanket thing I could come up with because some people might look at this and say, my entire database is like, you know, 10 million. That's going to take forever. So I would say look at this. And it's the spirit of it. Start with like the most engaged, you know, smaller audience, continue to expand and then work your way out to the more like kind of older records. That's the spirit of this. The calculations within it may change depending upon your audience. Dan Murphy [00:49:03]: Yeah, you could just feed this screenshot to ChatGPT and say, hey, this is for a list of maybe 16,000. Like how would this work for my list of a million or 300,000 or whatever? And they probably help you break down the ratios the way Sara laid it out here. Cool. Feel free to check out this again. This is the full. It's pretty robust guide. Sara, thanks for putting this together for everybody. I remember when you post this on LinkedIn, went kind of viral. Dan Murphy [00:49:26]: This is a great detailed guide of everything, email deliverability. And you should go and check this out. A great thing to have. All right. We are basically at time. We tried to answer as many questions as we could. I know there's still more to answer. Feel free to check out Alex or Sara on LinkedIn. Dan Murphy [00:49:43]: I think they both shared their LinkedIn URL or Sara did. Alex, if you have your LinkedIn, if you want to throw it in chat just so people know, is that the best place for people to contact you, Alex? Alex Fine [00:49:52]: Definitely. I am, Yeah. I have three screens I work from. One is LinkedIn, the other two are work. So my LinkedIn is always up. Dan Murphy [00:50:00]: So how many emails have you sent while on this webinar? Alex Fine [00:50:04]: I don't know. I'd have to check. I don't know. We have 35 active clients right now, so I don't know. Could be thousands. Dan Murphy [00:50:11]: Yeah. Great cam. Thanks for the shout out there. Hey, before we hop off real quick, could everybody just do me a favor and just chat in scale from one to five, how valuable you thought today's webinar was? Five being amazing, great, perfect. One being complete. Waste of your time and I don't know why I'm here. 59 minutes in. Does not look like that's the case for many people. Dan Murphy [00:50:30]: A lot of fours and fives. That's super helpful. Alex Fine [00:50:32]: We got needed. Dan Murphy [00:50:33]: Appreciate it. Sara McNamara [00:50:34]: Yeah, I saw eight in there. Dan Murphy [00:50:35]: Nice. That's awesome. And thanks everyone who stuck around for the whole time. It's awesome. We try to make these as interactive and answer as many of your questions as possible. So I'm really glad we were able to get to many of them. Check out Sara's guide. Check out Sara on LinkedIn. Dan Murphy [00:50:48]: Check out Alex. He doesn't have a very complicated name to search on LinkedIn, so you'll be able to find him there or his link we can pop into the chat. We'll send the recording out after this. So you have that. And thank you to our sponsor, Knack, who sponsor today's session on email deliverability. Sara, Alex, thanks very much. Appreciate your time. Alex Fine [00:51:07]: Thanks, guys. Sara McNamara [00:51:07]: Thanks. Dan Murphy [00:51:08]: Cool. Bye, everyone. Have a great day. Dave Gerhardt [00:51:13]: Hey, thanks for listening to this podcast. If you like this episode. You know what? I'm not even going to ask you to subscribe and leave a review because I don't really care about that. I have something better for you. So we've built the number one private community for B2B marketers at Exit Five. 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