Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Up & Unlock Your Potential | Elaine Lin Hering Interview

That's a conversation rather than a demand. And it surfaces what could be a clerical error and opportunity or a miscommunication. If I am a leader, I am an executive. Part of my role is how do I make it easier for other people to raise those issues? We might be missing out on promotion, then money, and all kinds of things in our life that we otherwise wouldn't have.

There's that self-sensoring of "I don't want to be to this or to that" or "I've particularly as other people, you know, even if you said something," sometimes it's like the conversation just moves on and you're left there thinking, "Did I actually say that out loud? Let's just start with eliminate the things that should have been in email anyways because the gift exists for a reason." How we differentiate ourselves from the technology is actually our humanity.

So how do we bring more of that back? Particularly when the technology means that we lose some of that social connectivity, the warmth, the humor, the awkwardness that makes us human and also makes us connect as people. Welcome to the Executive Connect podcast. Elaine, you had such a diverse background. You've been a lecturer at Harvard Law School. You've been a manage partner at TRIOD Consulting Group.

Can you share a little bit about some pivoting moments in your career that shapes your professional journey? Absolutely. Well, first of all, I'm so delighted to be with Humilissa and with this community. I think my career tracks most people's careers, which is very few of us end up doing exactly what we thought we would do. And it is that pivotal moment of choosing what's the next thing I'm going to try.

Or even if my life does not look like what I thought it would look like, maybe it's even better. And so I went to Harvard Law School fully intending to be a litigator. I was one of those per-coast children that said from the time I was 11 that I was going to be a lawyer. Found out that law was not actually for me, but discovered negotiation theory in pedagogy. How do you actually communicate?

How do you negotiate with, and this like, light bulb moment of, wait, you can actually negotiate because that's not how I was brought up, right? Children should be seen and not heard. You should defer to your elders. You can actually negotiate. You can have an opinion of your own. Mind blown novel idea. I pivoted into this thing that I didn't know what it was called, but apparently it's called

leadership development. As I was teaching concepts out of the Harvard negotiation project for more than a decade, realized I think there's something missing here. And so accidentally became an author of this book, "Unlearning Silence, How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, and Live More Fully."

And so I'm looking forward to the next chapters that are professional adventures I never would have trumped up, but that when I look back, I can see how I picked up the different skills that's along the way to be awesome at what I do. First of all, I love your book and I want to hear a little bit about what inspired you to write "Unlearning Silence." Was it an experience? Was it a situation? Can you share with our listeners a little bit about why you wrote "Unlearning Silence?"

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's both professional and personal. So I'm the youngest daughter of an immigrant family from Taiwan to the United States. I share that because often as an immigrant, you're just trying to simulate. You're trying to be accepted. As the youngest daughter, I was supposed to defer to my elders. And of course, coming from a culture that is pretty patriarchal. Meaning, my brother is more important and more valued than I am.

Boy is more important than girls. And so my job was to smile, stay silent, and serve. And I think service is a good thing and can have shadow sides if misinterpreted. So for a long time, I was that pretty quiet person who was great to work with because I kept my head down and did good work and let other people take credit for my work.

And I got the same advice that I think many people get, which is if you're not being heard, you're not getting promoted, you're not getting what you want in life and in leadership, you need to speak up more. Be more assertive. Be less assertive. Smile more, smile less. And this is particularly gendered for people who present as female. But as I as a leadership development person started to regurgitate that advice,

I thought there's something missing here. Because as we're talking about, you know, you need to negotiate more. You need to go have the difficult conversation. You need to give or receive feedback. I noticed a pattern that no matter how good the tools were, the training was, some people still didn't negotiate. Some people still didn't have the difficult conversation. Some people still wouldn't give or receive feedback no matter how much HR or their manager or the C-suite told them

they should and ask the question, what gives? And to me, the missing piece was silence.

In what ways have we learned to stay silent, been rewarded in our careers for staying silent, not rocking the boat, right? Not pushing back, not being a stick in the mud, whatever framing you want to use. And in what ways might even well intention leaders end up silencing the very people they want to support. So we say my doors always open or tell me what you really think, but people still wouldn't, still don't. And to me, that's that factor of silence that's interwoven and

implicated in all of our professional and personal relationships. So unlearning silence is really looking at what role does silence play on my team, in my life and in my leadership, and how my unlearning it, questioning those assumptions, noticing the dynamics changing our inputs, unlock and unleash talent and potential in a whole new way. Yeah, I think that's great. I think a lot of times the narrative that I used to play is like,

pick your battles. Be careful what you say. Don't appear too smart and nobody's going to like you or don't seem dumb, then you know, you're not going to, so we have all these things kind of running through our mind. Like if we're going to say something like we get the courage to say it, and then we organize what we're going to say, and then like it just doesn't happen. So I see it a lot, when I worked as an engineer a lot of times, you know, I had to sit in the back because I was younger,

and you know, I didn't know enough is everybody else. And you know, I'd raise my hand and they continue to talk or yeah, I'm like, okay, that's not important. And I'd raise my hand and act, meaning, and nobody, you know, slept me. So I think we also get trained, can we try and we try and we try. And then nobody wants our opinion. And we're like, okay, well, they got it all figured out. Or if they don't want to hear from me, why should I keep trying? It's like, I'm banging my head

against a brick wall. And what you said there and shared there so beautifully, right? There's that self-sensoring of I don't want to be to this or to that, or I've got to, it's got to be a certain way, particularly if you're the only of any identity or new in a room or more junior, it's easy to discount yourself, particularly as other people, you know, even if you said something, sometimes it's like the conversation just moves on, and you're left there thinking, did I actually say that out loud?

Because everyone's acting like I didn't actually say anything. And so we really lose this sense of value, right? Am I, am I, is it worth me being here? Do I have anything to offer and at least to self-doubt and lack of self-confidence and really damaging self-image when I think there's contributions from all sides, right? There's, am I doing that self-talk, self-sensoring? Let me be aware of that. Is there actually anything I can change? And often in terms of mitigated speech, we as human beings

don't tend to be as clear as we think we are, right? So I'm thinking this is a horrible idea, this is never going to work, we're not going to hit the deadline, but instead of saying that out loud, because I worry about coming across to fill in the blank whatever way people might describe me, or might fear being perceived, I ask a question, like, do you think this is going to work? And the other people in the room are like, yeah, of course it's going to work, right? But there's a

huge difference between, do you think this is going to work? And what I'm really thinking in my internal voice, which is hell no, this is not going to happen. And so in what ways do we dampen our own message without even realizing it? And then there's other people's contributions of assumptions of if you're more junior, your voice just doesn't have as much weight, or you need to raise your hand, do you

even need to raise your hand, right? There's all these embedded assumptions about how we work together that contribute to who gets heard and who doesn't. Yeah, so true. And then, you know, I think about when

you finally get the courage, kind of a neck flare of that, you get the courage to speak up and you're halfway through your sentence and somebody like, cuts you off right before you get your point across. So people are like, oh, whatever she was saying is not valid, because you didn't get to your

yes point, process, fast enough. I want to talk a little bit about, you know, some actual, like actual steps people can take if they're the ones that are being silenced or cut off or, you know, now that we're all virtual, people raise their hand and people, you know, a lot of time say, I will get you later, we'll get you later in a little later, come. So I want to hear a little bit from you about some steps you can actually take to be heard and start that kind of collaborative communication

with your professional career, maybe even personal careers. Yeah, two things because we're all about saving personal relationships as well. Those are sometimes the ones that keep us up at night, even more than the work ones. So number one, I find that people really struggle with, what's that initial moment? What do I actually say? Because I'm sitting in a meeting and I'm like, oh, that doesn't work, but I don't, what do I actually say? And the sort of on tray phrase, I find really helpful,

particularly if you're going to disagree is, I see that differently. So different isn't your wrong, I'm right, you're wrong, I'm good, you're bad, it's just different and difference exists in the world and we know that and because we're different human beings, obviously we're going to see things differently. But that phrase, I see things differently or I see it differently, and then you can fill in the blank with whatever that actually is. And to me, that isn't combative, that's just like

sign posting, I see it differently, the statement of fact. So that gives you the, what's the first phrase? If you can't even get there, you could even just go, oh, hold on, right, and hold on is again, that's taking the ground, pause the conversation, yellow flag, we got to revisit this, whatever it is. So hold on or I see it differently. The other thing can be really helpful in this conversation is

when I'm having a conversation with you, I don't really want to push back on you, right? I don't want to play devil's advocate, even if someone's like, play devil's advocate, it feels relationally awful to be against you. I want to be on the same team. And in the book, I talk about this is three levers for voice, their substance, what we're talking about, there's relationship who's doing the talking and then process, how we're communicating about it. And a big process move is using standard

questions. And so if on our team, every time we're talking about something, evaluating issue, we always ask what are the pros, what are the cons? What about this works, what about this doesn't work, what about this resonate, doesn't resonate? Those are the same boring old questions that are always on the agenda. And it does a couple of things. It means I don't have to push back, means I don't

have to speak up because I just have to answer the agenda item questions. And it also means that if I wire differently, which we can get into, some of us are post-processors, some of us are real time processors, post-processors, meaning in the meeting, I can't quite figure out to say, but 20 minutes after I've clicked out of zoom, I'm like, that's what I wanted to say. Okay, I'm seeing the head, nod, the recognition, you're not alone. Oftentimes that feels like a weakness. And in a professional

world, it's characterized as a weakness. When it's really just a difference in wiring, some of us communicate and process better than more we talk it out. Some of us we need that space in engineering terms to cache and compile, right? We need to think and it comes to us. So instead of trying to make everybody fit into this real time mode, what if we actually account for that difference in wiring?

And that standard question of, oh, I know it's going to be pros and cons. So I can sort of pre-process also helps, but it also means that in the meeting, instead of just saying, all right, arbitrary 30-minute

meeting is over, we click out the decisions been made, whoever's owning the meeting can say, all right, everybody sleep on it. As you post process, reply all on that email, or, you know, put it on that slack thread and it does a couple of things. Number one, it normalizes that we're wired differently. Number two, it means that people know, okay, I just have to reply all on that email because there's

that moment of paralysis if we've clicked out of the meeting particularly virtually. And I'm like, oh, do I just text Melissa? Do I email her? Do I reply all and I can get overwhelmed by the decision making of how I actually re-engage the conversation. But if I've made clear what the avenue for continuing the conversation is, I've taken that labor off someone else's plate and increases

the likelihood they engage in the conversation. Yeah, and I also think, I don't know about you, but in the world today, I say death by meetings, like there's so many meetings and more meetings and more meetings. So before I show up, I like to know what we're talking about. Really? Before, yeah, right, I could just say novel idea. All right, and I like to find out what we're talking about and what the outcome of the meeting is. So I can prepare the right questions based on what the discussion is

going to be. And then while I'm in the meeting, I'm actively thinking about what's going on. And then at the end of the meeting, if I didn't get what I need to get out, I often message people or say things like, have you thought of this? Or I really liked your idea on that. We should also try this. And I think it's just being organized and prepared sometimes and get, you know, get incompetence to do it.

I feel like it's a muscle. Once you figure out and you're on video, you're on camera and you're actively engaged, I find a lot of times I'm on Zoom calls and like I could tell that like 20% of the people are paying attention. And so you have the opportunity to really get your opinions across if you're paying attention. Well, yes, to if you're paying attention. And also number one, should it even be a meeting? Right, what is the purpose? If it's an update, if it's a unilateral update,

that can be a synchronous. And so let's just start with eliminate the things that should have been in email anyways because the gift exists for a reason. Second, and I'll say this, especially knowing who listens to this podcast, if you are a leader, formally or informally in an organization, but particularly if you're an executive, what do your behaviors model? Because you have the power

and influence to cancel the meeting. To ask the question ahead of time to suggest maybe meet without me because you want other people to brainstorm more freely without your influence in the room, because they're more likely to be quiet if you're in the room and they're all waiting to see what you're going to do. How do you you want to set the tone for how we operate spend our time and not waste our time around here? Oh, I love it. And I think once you find that voice, you get more time

back in your day. I think we just show up and the day runs us instead of running our day. And I love that you brought that up because I think that's so important. I've had recently somebody say, why aren't you on this meeting? I'm like, because I don't have anything to contribute. It's not even in my job description or a purview. And they're like, yeah, that's true. I'm like, okay, well, let's move on.

And so it's really important to manage your day and get your needs met because you could be sitting on meetings that don't affect your day, but really understanding what your role is in sitting in these meetings. Like, what are you contributing? Do they want you to contribute? Or is this just an FYI? I'm like you said, if it's an FYI, send me an email. Was it a courtesy invite? Because particularly if you're lower on the org chart, there can be a, I want to keep Melissa in the loop. I don't want

Melissa to be offended or feel left out. And you're like, leave me out of it because I hired good people

and I know you're more than competent, but there's that clarifying, what are we assuming about each other? What do you mean by this invitation? Just because you included me on the invite doesn't mean I'm promising to show up. And if you want me to show up, I need you to let me know what you're expecting of me so I can be a value add, right? Make this worthwhile for everyone. Yeah, and kind of pivoting this a little bit personally. I know a lot of people are working

remotely these days, artificial intelligence, doing a lot more things. I personally feel like interpersonal skills, I've changed a lot lately. Even just simple thank you for holding the door or you know, with children, this is probably historically always the case like how was your day good? Just expanding upon a thought communication is, it seems like it's like a prompt now. So from your perspective, are these technologies affecting people's communication? Is it silencing their voices?

What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean to me technology is and always has been a tool. But because it's a tool, we need to know how are we using it? What role do we want it to play in our lives rather than it running our days or running us? I mean, I know I run my days by my Google calendar. I can't, I've outsourced, right? I've outsourced that. But where is our agency, our intentionality

in that? And so let me offer this, which is as we talk about voice and silence, voice isn't just the words you say or don't say in a meeting. Voice is how you move through the world. And so what are your personal values? You could call them brand values. You could think of them as personal values, but much like your company has company values. What are your own values? Because that to me, the manifestation of the living out of your own personal values is your voice.

It's not just what you say, it's how you move through the world. And AI can't replicate that. So in what ways might AI or whatever technology supplement what you're doing, amplify what you're doing in a way that we're not fearful of it, but it really is an amplifier and an enhancer rather than us following, you know, machine learning's lead over time. Yeah, I love that you said that. I think, you know, I worked from home.

So a lot of times I'm on a computer and working in silence. And same is new working off calendars. And I've noticed just a shift in myself where I'm not communicating as much. And kind of what you were saying at the beginning, when I do communicate, I'm what I'm getting out is it clear, concise, and does the person receiving it understand, you know, their piece of it? Are they listening? Is it their own action for them? So a lot of times if there is an action, I'll clarify with the person on the

end. So you're going to send me that invite. Great, because I think you're so spot on with that, like how we're communicating, what I understand. Sometimes is different than the person. I think it's so, it's so spot on right now. Yeah. And I think the over reliance on technology, right? Part of your question was does technology silence us? Again, I think it's, are we choosing our relationship with

these technologies? When AI suggests the language that I'm typing in the email, sometimes I'm like, that's brilliant. I just click enter and it has expedited my process. Sometimes it cannot anticipate what I'm trying to say, right? We are still adding the human element of it. And however much of our lives is automated, the difference, the different, how we differentiate ourselves from the technology

is actually our humanity. So how do we bring more of that back? Particularly when the technology means that we lose some of that social connectivity, the warmth, the humor, the awkwardness that makes us human and also makes us connect as people. Yeah, I love that. I want to talk a little bit about, you know, you, you, you struggled at the beginning and you found your voice. You're a huge, longest success story in, you know, one end of the spectrum and the other end of the spectrum. And

I often hear a lot in, you know, I'm an engineer, I'm in the tech community, younger generations. I hear all the time, women and men struggling to find their voice and speak up, whether it's in intimate relationships, it work or, you know, maybe they have a friend that's always late and they just are like,

gosh, can you be on time or hey, give me the courtesy update? And so what advice would you give women or men or anybody struggling to find their voice on how they could actually find their voice? Yeah, I mean, I'll try to distill what I ended up writing an entire book on. So one is just thinking about voice in an expansive way, not just the words you say, but how you move through the world.

And in chapter six, I'm offering three levers for voice. So that substance relationship process, thinking about how do we use each of those to make ourselves heard, to get our needs met. There are some fundamental assumptions there, which is often in terms of getting our needs met. People are thinking, well, I don't want to come across as needy. And there's a mindset shift there, which is we're human. We all have needs, goals, hopes and concerns. Yours matter as much as anyone

else is, even if that's not how other people treat you. So there's an aspect of can I take up space? I don't want to be a burden that can often be at play versus just the normalization. And in a very clinical way, I am a party to this negotiation. Therefore, I have needs, goals, hopes and concerns with my own. Right? Those are that's the fundamental part of interest-based negotiation. The other is what might the world or other people be missing out on because you're withholding

yourself, withholding your insight and expertise. So what is really sort of bland and not novel to you, run of the mill to you, maybe profound to someone else? And so if you have, you go. No, no, finish your thought. Sorry. If you're an other centric person, sometimes that mental hack of how can me actually using my voice more be of service to others can be really helpful, especially if you're someone who's like, I don't want to take up space or I've been

penalized for taking up space. It's, how can I actually add? Because no one in this world can be you, but you, right? You as an engineer are going to see different things based on the data that you have, the projects that you touch, where in the world you sit, you're going to have a different vantage point than anywhere else. And again, if you're looking for an entryway into that conversation, the phrase from where I sit can be really helpful. So from where I sit, the numbers don't add up.

What do things look like from where you sit? So part of our hesitation can be, I don't want to get it wrong. I can anticipate their rebuttal, but in doing that and defaulting to silence, we end up not sharing our insights, our expertise versus how do we fully own what I know and what I see, which is going to be one slice of the puzzle, one piece of the puzzle and invite in the other puzzle pieces, right? So from where I sit, this doesn't make sense because of XYZ reasons, what does it look

like from where you sit? Granted, you live in, you sit in a different state, you sit in a different part of the organization. So we're going to see different things so that frame of where I sit

can be really helpful as well. Yeah, and I think that's such an important piece of the well is, you know, just in my experience, I've had some people that were not, you know, engineers or technologists find solutions, they were non-technical people finding solutions or problems because they passed by and noticed something that somebody else did it and they were, one of the people was a janitor

of a building I worked out of. Yeah. And he came up with a solution that an entire team couldn't, but he spoke up and shared what he heard just casually and just like you said, who knows who could benefit from what you share? In the other side of it, I was at an event last night and I heard from

a young intern that complained that she'd been an intern for a while at a company and she hadn't received a pay raise and she's very frustrated and she was looking for a new role. And I asked her, you know, how do you sat down with your boss and manager and talk to them? And her response was, no, well she went ahead and did that and circled back around to me come to find out her pay raise was accidentally processed incorrectly in their payroll system. So she indeed did receive the pay raise,

but it never actually ended up in her bank account. And so kind of going back to what you were saying is sometimes things we make assumptions or we don't want to speak up about is maybe not even intentional. It's a clerical error or so if we don't find that strength within to ask those questions, we might be missing out on promotions and money and all kinds of things in our life that we otherwise

wouldn't have. And that's totally right, including that, hey, I've been here for a long time, I would have expected a pay raise. I haven't seen it, so I'm sort of confused, right? That's a conversation rather than a demand and it surfaces what could be a clerical error and opportunity or a miscommunication. But we can't figure out where we've missed each other, where we haven't understood the other person or where we have missing data until we have those conversations.

I do want to layer on another piece, which is if I am a leader, I am an executive part of my role is how do I make it easier for other people to raise those issues? Because we are often invisible, the power that we have is invisible to us. As an exec, I'm focused on the power I don't have, right? With the board will let me do or not do. If I'm a middle manager, I'm focused on what the execs let me do or not do. And I'm not focusing on the power I do have and the power that other people

perceive me having, including this speaking up, right? It's it's phrased as speaking up for that reason. I'm speaking up in the org chart, I'm speaking across lines of power and you executive have influence over my paycheck, my promotion, my career, my relationships, and there's a lot there.

So if as an exec, I want people to ask what may feel like silly questions, but might actually lead us to a new innovation or a solve for a problem the way that you mentioned the janitor coming up with a solution, I need to make that really explicit that here we value all perspectives and you know what? In turn, you're going to see things that I don't see because you come to this with fresh eyes. You come to this with an engineering lens when I'm coming at this with a legal lens. And

again, we're this is the essence of teamwork, right? We're putting together the puzzle pieces, but as the leader, I need to be explicit about that's what I expect. And as people share their puzzle pieces, my response is consistent with that, which starts with appreciation, right? Thank you for sharing. And what am I going to do about it? And if I'm not doing what you're suggesting or prescribing, let me circle back to make sure I let you know, you know, we we didn't get to this this quarter

because there's a cash flow issue or because we have a different priority. It's not to say that it's not important, but as I look at things from where I sit, it didn't make the cut, right? And that helps people with what can feel like, you know, if I come to you, my exec and share something with you, and then I hear nothing back, it's incredibly demotivating and it's really easy for me to draw the

conclusion that my voice and my perspective don't matter. Whereas you're probably juggling a million things that they cannot see. So it doesn't need to be extensive, but even the in terms of priorities, we determine that these three were the top priorities for the first half of the year. And so it's on the list for Q Q3 Q4, right? Then people know, all right, it's in the ecosystem rather than, I guess,

I banged my head against the wall and it's useless. Yeah, and I also think if you're uncomfortable or unsure or not confident in speaking up, find somebody like a buddy that you can bounce something off of. I find, you know, I have a very direct personality and sometimes it's not well received by other people, which is totally fine. I've learned how to kind of work through that, but I have had friends

that I bounced ideas off or chatted through things. I think when you're able to practice it in a, let's say, non-scary environment or a casual environment that and get somebody else's independent view on the situation, it tends to give us strength to do things when we've practiced it. So practice it outside, I think, as well. Yeah, I trust it, partner. Totally. And this is also where I love technology, because it's really awkward to practice a conversation with someone. You know what's even more

awkward? Not practicing it and going in cold. But if you're, you know, you don't want to play your friends in that way or your spouse is tired of hearing about what's going on at work, pull out your smartphone, turn it on selfie mode and record yourself and then play it back. Now, I know maybe that's even more threatening than talking with friends. So we're just trying to give you options here.

But the, what practicing with a buddy does or recording is, number one, it shows you that you're actually usually not going to die from making this request. Right? There's that embodied experience of, I said the words and it didn't kill me, even though it can feel that way. Second is as you do the playback of the video or you get feedback from your buddy, it will tell you whether you're actually being as

clear as you think you are. Again, it's that example where, you know, do you really think that's a good idea versus hell, no, that's never going to happen. Really big difference. And so you're checking really for understanding. We can't control what other people hear, but we do have influence over what we share with them. So can I at least own my part of the puzzle of what I'm sharing and you get that test from either

recording yourself or testing it out on a buddy, as you said. And get, I think get feedback too. Like, you know, when you're presenting something, I, you know, I'm a fidgety, you know, look, let's look right person and so many of my friends were like, Hey, what are you doing? Are you reading an email? I'm like, no, I'm staring at the answers on the ceiling. Why? And but it took somebody coaching me to

tell me that like, I'm looking up so they're rolling your eyes. I'm like, no, I'm just, that's how I think up. And so I didn't realize that about myself until like you said, I recorded myself. And then I have somebody to tell me, you know, most of what's wrong, you know, you're reading emails back and forth, but it's really just the way my brain thinks. And so I love kind of what you were saying about the video because we often realize, you know, things about ourself that we otherwise would it.

And that's a, that's a fantastic example. Yeah, I want to take what you just offered as well, because there is let me record myself and maybe, you know, look in the camera rather than up at the ceiling. And that's valuable coaching. I also want to offer the idea that, you know, no one's perfect. And we have this one, we tend to have this one model, particularly in corporate spaces of how we're

supposed to speak and how real execs show up. Three succinct bullet points, no ums, just the right of the amount of emotion to show that you care, but not too much that you don't seem credible, particularly if you're a woman. And what if we got to be more human? And the way that we can do that is not try to fix our eye contact or eliminate all of our ums because at the end of the day we're human, but what you've done so beautifully in this conversation is, hey, I'm a really direct person,

or this is the way my brain thinks. I'm sort of here and there. And so you'll see that about me. Then I know how to code your behavior, right? When I see you looking to the side or up to the ceiling, I don't think you're distracted or not paying attention. I'm like, oh, that's apparently how Melissa's brain is working. So I'm going to focus on tracking you, right? So we can offer that framing to help people understand where we're coming from. It also takes the pressure off of us to have to

have this perfect image all the time, right? And there's power, particularly as an exact, just say, you know what? It's been a tough day. Or last night was a really short night of sleep, but I am here with all I've got. And you're getting maybe 80% of me today, but you're also normalizing for other people, it is okay to be a multifaceted human being. I don't know, maybe your kids were up last night, maybe

your kids were sick, maybe your dog died, whatever it is, we're not robots. So how do we instead of spending the energy trying to pretend that we are robotic professionals just offer that insight to, yeah, I'm a really direct person. Or this is what I'm working on.

I love that. That is so good. You know, we hear the word authentic a lot. Like we hear that a lot in leadership. You've got to be authentic and authentic and, you know, authentic to me is human. It's messy. It's like you were saying, my video is not on today because I was up all night. And I'm not feeling good or, you know, and so I think the more that you do what you were saying, the stronger you build

trust and relationships and community because people know they can bring their authentic self. If you're saying, you know, I'm late because of this reason or I can't share my camera, they're like, okay, I could be my authentic self too and say, well, I don't, I'm in a different room because my husband kicked me out or, you know, the plumbers fixing are plumbing and you create more, you know, authentic and great type relationships with that. I love that you said that.

Yeah, absolutely. There's just so much posturing that we feel like we have to do and so much real life that is happening. So again, channel that energy differently just because you're tired, just because you're at a rough night or the plumbers here doesn't mean that we can't get really good high impact work done. Maybe we do that better with the camera off. Maybe we do that better with me on mute right

now so you don't hear me hacking up a store, whenever it is, but I'm here, right? And letting that be enough. I love it. So many good nuggets there. Thank you so much for sharing all that. Now, what's next? Share with our listeners. Any upcoming projects, research? Are you writing another book? Are you speaking? Tell us what's next. Yeah, I am speaking wherever I can about unlearning silence because my hope in aim is to put silence on the map, the way Brane Brown put shame on the map.

I want us to talk about it, solve for it, figure it out. I want unlearning silence embedded in every high potential leadership program so that we are leading in that way that makes it easier for the people who report to us and follow us to show up and unleash their talent. So if that's something you're designing would love to be in that conversation. For the sake of my marriage, I am not yet working on

another book again, the personal and professional mix, but have good ideas brewing. So in the meantime, it's really trying to figure out how do we lead in a way where we don't unintentionally silence the very people we want to support. That is so great. Elaine, thank you so much for your time, your knowledge, and all your positive energy. Thank you for being here today. Thanks for having me. and that's the Executive Connect podcast.