Understanding Behavior with Ex-FBI Hostage Negotiator Chip Massey & PR Expert Adele Gambardella

[Music]

Welcome to the Executive Connect podcast, where we take a deep dive into the minds of executives and learn their success stories. In today's episode, we're going to be speaking with two people, Chip and Adele. Adele is a PR strategist who has managed top PR firms and worked with high-profile clients like President Joe Biden and CEO of Lockheed Martin. Known for expertise in crisis management, Adele has led campaigns for major brands such as SAP

and Verizon. Joining Adele is Chip, a former FBI, special agents and hostage negotiator turned business consultant. Chip co-founded the convincing company with Adele, leveraging his unique high stakes negotiations and behavioral analysis. His transition from FBI to corporate world offers a fascinating perspective on how techniques from law enforcement can be applied to business strategies and crisis management. Welcome Adele and Chip. Thank you Melissa. Thank you.

Thanks for being here today. Adele, I want to start with you ladies first of course, giving your background with clients like President Joe Biden and the CEO of Lockheed Martin. How did you get into the industry you're in now from PR to crisis communications?

Yeah, so I started my career at George Magazine as a reporter for John F. Kenvey Jr. his publication that was the melding between politics and pop culture and it was a really interesting place to start my career and ever since I worked there anytime I whipped out my resume for like another 15 years thereafter people would be like, "Did you meet him?" Was he was he had some? 15, you know your name? I mean like it was like it didn't matter what I did

15 years thereafter they were like what what was John F. Kenvey Jr. like but I did that. I was

in a reporter. I was an investigative reporter for the Azary Park press and then USA Today was they bought them out but as the person who was the first person to graduate college in my family I had to pay off my student loans so I sold out and went over to the dark side as they call it on Madison Avenue launching big dot coms because I did it during the dot com error also eBay movie phone what a hundred flowers got the one in her flower sky on cover a time magazine and that sort

of that sort of solidified the fact that I was that I was in PR because they were like wow what

did you just do? What you just blew this company up and it was it was pretty exciting did that and you know did that for quite a while work to some big memes some celebrities and then started my own agency so I did that I started my own agency 15 years ago and I've been working with Chip for about five years so I've been a business for myself for a little under 20 years I started when I was five naturally because I'm so young but but yeah so it was really fun and I got to work with some

really high profile individuals and some of those people were really interesting to work with some require different convincing strategies some of which we talk about in the book and it is certainly interesting to work with people who are at the top of their game and it does require a different set of skills and a lot of patience believe it or not it is much harder to work with a big name than it is to work with just any executive right it is

different they have different standards and so it is a little bit of a different process which I can talk about a little bit more on the podcast but yeah well thanks for being here Adel I'm anxious to get into it now Chip you have a similar interesting background from FBI special agent and hostage negotiator your experiences equally as unique you have led the transition from FBI to co-founding

the convincing company with Adel tell us a little bit about your story yeah so I started my career with the FBI in the Washington DC field office that's where I began and I was on an espnage squad I did fugitives drug violations and espnage and from there I transferred to the New York City field office and that's where I also worked other violations and I was the team leader for the New York City hostage negotiators that's fantastic I'm excited to talk to you both today so thanks for being here

to talk about crisis management Adel I'm can you share a little bit about your key strategies and how to navigate crisis management and any key takeaways you can share with our listeners yeah so I mean I think when you are dealing with people who are in a crisis situation one of the first things that we encounter is really is the game of being convincing so they're going through a difficult time you have got to sort of get them out of that like poor me fairness this is like so unfair I've

done everything right for 20 years we call it the fairness fallacy because some people stay there for a long time whether just like this is so unfair why am I being portrayed like this I've done so many things right in my career why is this one thing just really you know becoming such a moron my name and so what we have to do is we have to sort of get them out of this mindset and that's where you know chip and I working together we really we bridge our two disciplines because I can be

focused on knowing exactly what they need to say what they need to do the strategies the steps and chip is focused on getting people to do what they need to do in these high stress moments like the emotion that goes into it which is a lot harder than that sounds so I mean it's really an interesting combination of skills and I think because we both come at it from different places the people who work with us they feel when they're having a crisis they feel so much calmer they feel like they

understand what's next and then they also understand why they're feeling what they're feeling and that's I think most people in the industry of crisis while they might be good practitioners they really don't understand the emotional elements that the executive the team people around them are going through and so we can predict that with some level of certainty and they don't think many other people in our field can do that that's great now I think FBI negotiation techniques are really

relevant with what we're going to talk about today from your perspective how has that helped you with corporate crisis management oh yeah that's a great question because one of the things that I was transferring from government work to the business sector and working with Adele you know it's it's a I guess I'm used to a different kind of situation you know so for example one of one of my first times of working with Adele in an engagement when we first started working together she said

hey I've got this thing with this with this company could you swing by I just want to get your your read on it I say yeah absolutely and so I go there and the scene is this you know I enter the boardroom and Adele's already there and I'm looking around and here's what I see Melissa I got three people off to the corner in the back that are literally crying I mean they're sobbing and then I've got some other people that are sitting at at the table and they're like stone-faced

zombies it's like they can't it's like they've seen something they can't process and then I've just got some other people that are standing around and they are mad they are just angry so my take on it from coming from you know law enforcement is some people died right this is a bad situation obviously they're they're all dealing with you know grief and the shock and the stress of all this I guess that's why Adele wanted me to swing by so I leaned over to Adele and I said so okay what do we

what do we got give me the give me the the quick of it and she said okay well one of these people sent an email they weren't supposed to send I said what what she's she's I said one more time somebody sent an email they were supposed to and then somebody died right she said no nobody's dead no there's no dead I said no terrorism no nothing like this she's no she said they just literally sent an email that they weren't supposed to I said oh this is what it's like right so it's a different

context absolutely but what I found and what Adele helped me understand is that really stresses relatives and you know my day to day yeah there were times it was life and death their day to day is I could lose my job right I could lose my my career here it's my reputation's on the line I've got a mortgage I've got another house in the hampton's how am I supposed to pay for this let me just say this we do handle harder things than sending the wrong email I mean like we do

handle like multinational graces foodborne illnesses infectious disease like it's not please do not think that it's just you hire us just and not because you sent out the wrong email no like run the gamut graces I just want to throw that in because I just like want to make sure people realize it's from work complex but yeah it is relative no it is and I think you make a really good point is is we stress is stress right yeah and we all adapt to whether you're an ER doctor or you're

working answering health desk calls or you're you know you work for the police for for stress is stress and at all we all can handle different reactions differently so I want to tie kind of what you two mentioned back to persuasive business strategies and how do you kind of what you both have talked about the blending of PR and negotiation and how to use that in the workplace and so Adele you mentioned a little bit at the beginning about talking about women and business so how do you

integrate persuasive communication strategies in business settings to achieve successful outcomes from a women's perspective oh wow this is a great question and I do think it's different for women than it is for men I do I still think that is that is a that is a key factor while I think a lot of the biases have dissipated they're still there and women are still faced with you know there's not that many seats of the table for us and so women are not necessarily kind to other women

and finding a mentor inside an organization I never found one that was not that was a woman and I worked at some big PR firms I really wanted a mentor I really wanted that it was just not going to happen and so what I tell women in in who are looking for a mentor says don't look inside the company that you're at because there's not that many seats at the table for women and women don't necessarily help other women inside their own company until they're just about to retire that's

one of the things I did find kind of funny right when they're just about to retire women are like okay I'm telling you everything I know let me let me just download all these things you know I wanted to tell you but I couldn't because I felt like you might take my place it's interesting and fascinating as that is but as far as persuasive techniques one of the things I want to mention and it's a very specific technique and so if your listeners are are really tuned in and dialed into this I

want them to go get a piece of paper and write this down if you are a woman who is in business and you are you are firm and or you come across as maybe you know maybe some people have said hey you're you're kind of aggressive or you're kind of bossy or you know you you dominate conversations which is so many of us in leadership positions have gotten that kind of feedback especially when we're in a room full of that here's the one technique to use never ever start with your strongest

point first and it is so counterintuitive because you would think that would make you more competent it would make you more more persuasive and actually all it does is it gets everybody in the room to think of the reasons why you're wrong to dig their heels in for what they believe against what it is you are you are proposing so instead of starting with your strongest point first even though we're taught to do that start with your point of agreement where can everybody in the

room agree and then move them down and I continue and we call it the convincing continuum in our book we we give specific processes to us for how to do this but just a quick thumbnail sketch of it would be you start with your point of agreement then you use fear wait what are their fears about what you're proposing you use their uncertainty what is their uncertainty around what you're proposing to create and cast some doubts in their mind about their own current biases that they

may have about what you're proposing and then this is the sneaky interesting technique that most people don't do well then what you have to do is you have to give them just enough information to inspire them to go research what the possible solution is on their own so they can convince themselves but most of us we start with our strongest point first we back it up with our emotional argument we back it up with our fact-based argument we put all our cards in the table and we're

hoping we are convincing us when in actuality you start with your strongest point first you examine fud fear uncertainty and doubt you make them doubt what they believed before and then you give them just enough information so they want to go seek out more information and you stop you don't go to their latitude of rejection this is based on 40 years of social science research if you go too far if you are too forceful if you are too too in people's faces about things they will reject what you're

saying wholeheartedly and never come back to it again to hear your point of view so what I would say is this isn't about being softer it's about just changing your approach a little bit and I think women just has such a hard time with this it's like well I don't want to come across as weak I don't want to come across as somebody who doesn't know what they're talking though I want to come across as competent

but in actuality what you should do is you should be coming across as someone who understands what everybody else agrees within group then move them down the continuum and stop have the discipline to stop but that is fantastic advice I think you're right women are so used in condition I'll use the word condition to feel like they have to defend their ideas I mean they could have the best GPA graduated from the best school practice for 20 years and they're still used to

explaining why their point is right and so that is fantastic sound sage advice because you're spot on you just and what's that saying that says you know pick your battles sometimes you have to let it go and you know circling this back to crisis management and stress you could fight fight fight everybody's still you know and fight fight fight again and through this whole process you could become more stressed and sometimes give your point like you said give them just enough

than counterpoint and just let them come back with you and sometimes I think just kind of one other layer that we got to pick our battles right and and let go sometimes of that win but I think we have to uncondition ourselves a little bit right I think as women women leaders and that's yeah I mean the picking the battles I mean I think yes and no right it's like if you have something you really believe in right it's like again though where do you want to show your competence

I think that's you know that's a great point that you're bringing up with where is it really important that you show your competence women want to show their confidence all the time in all areas I think that's what I think that's what you're talking about right let's like you know it's like you can't you can't be competent all the time you can't be this much person through all the time you have to come at it from a more indirect approach with these convincing strategies I love it I love

it that's great sage advice so chip I want to talk about from from your perspective more like the like the male side as well talking about some common mistakes businesses make in high stakes negotiation and how they can actually avoid these mistakes sure one of the things that we teach often is this concept of forensic listening and really what it's all about and I think you agree with us on this Melissa is that too often we set up a dichotomy that is a us versus them

or there's two sides and you know it's already the the the feel the vibe of the whole thing is off and what we teach is this is the concept of forensic listening which is the art and science and analysis of a conversation after it's happened because what we say is words leave clues and so we tell people that we want you to examine a conversation and a person's interactions with you whether they're leading a meeting or you're it's a one-on-one call or it's in person to look at it

from four different perspectives and the first perspective is their voice their pitched tone cadence how what you know where are they up where they're down you know where is it that there's there's pede and pacing picks up the other is the themes that they're developed what is it that they are repeating what is it that you know because it's we know that if somebody repeats something more than once then it's important to them which means it better be important to you

and the other is the whole idea of body positioning which we differentiate a little bit from body language because body positioning is that we are always you know creatures of movement and how we interact in the world around us so so so it could be you know where is the person really you know gesturing where are they animated where are they just kind of pulling back and maybe their energy drops and then the the other is the emotion what emotion are they attaching to the themes and

you know to you hear it in their voice where does that happen and then you can start to dig in why so so you have all those four things and what we say is you go back after you've had that conversation do some quick note-taking so you know just to divide a page up into like four quadrants or some corner of it and write in those things okay here under voice here this where they were body positions were themed development and and so on now you pull all that together and then you get

a kind of a distillation of who they are what they are and what is important to them and then you take that and now let's say you go two weeks later you go up to that person and you say you know that meeting that we had on you know in increasing our visibility on social media I just realized that you know while you were talking in that meeting I sensed that you what you thought was really an issue that we needed to follow through on was the whole idea of client development

and deepening these relationships and I just want you to know that I took that information and I took it back to my team and I implemented a couple of things that you had mentioned and it really made a big difference and I just wanted to say thank you now imagine that throwing that kind of thing at framework into your day-to-day talks with clients interactions with board members financing whatever that is you are connecting with people

and clearly Melissa you're very skilled at this adept at this but there's so many people that have difficulty with the idea of well wait I'm you know I've got I've got four points that I've got to get I've got to get the numbers right I've got to make sure the deliverables are there and I have to make sure I get dependent upon it and I got to hit all these things if I don't hit all these things I'm in trouble right no it's about the connection you make that connection to a person you understand

them in a way that that no other vendor no other supplier no other you know company has yet can you imagine the impact and you have you'll become a trusted advisor you'll become that go to person that they call so it's that's what we advise we advise deepen that relationship take a take a few steps back and figure out who they are what they are and how they want to be seen the world and you'll have a friend for life well said you you're you're you're almost reading my

mind chip I was going to kind of moving that behavior analysis after and I want to just kind of a quick story I had you mentioned clients and sales years ago I had been part of a call with a client that I understood his personality understood his desk setup I knew how he moved I thought I knew a lot about this person and the people on the other end of the conference called didn't and the guy kept going like this during the call and kind of rolling his eyes and everybody like God he's such a rude

person well they didn't realize that how his desk was situated his camera and his monitor was in a different location right so they thought his body language was really rude he's not interested he's not engaging right and and so kind of to what you were saying is you know during FBI negotiations it's really important to understand and watch body language tone voice the way their bodies moving and so how can these as we correlate it back to people and their day to day how can these type of

techniques benefit business leaders and their day to day operations with their personnel oh that's a great question absolutely and you apply this it in terms of so you take this framework and you apply to each person on your team anybody that reports you anybody that's an important relationship in the dynamic of your company you had better have some type of what we call pattern of life of on that individual this is their their kind of baseline behavior and you want to know that person

so thoroughly that you're going to you're going to not only detect when they're in a bad mood everybody's is always kind of off the day must have a job you know bad commute something going on at home but you should know that person's hopes dreams and aspirations you should even know the things that they're not telling you one of the principles in our book is this idea of the unstated narrative and the unstated narrative is simply that there is a disconnect between what somebody actually believes

about you your company who you are as a leader who you are as a salesperson and what they'll tell you to your face so so we all we all have to have this right in order for defunction as a as a society we have to have these rules but if you're able to get closer to what that person's unstated narrative what they actually are you know reticent about what is it what are their holdbacks why might it be that they in particular have this one thing that seems to be you know just not working

figure that out come close to it and when you're talking to that person next say you know I just noticed that you know when we brought up and I heard your team talking about that there was an idea that was pushed out and you seem to really have a you know just when the opposite direction and kind of shut down you know I'm just wondering is is there something behind that is there you know perhaps you know you're it's just that you have a you have a bad feeling about this one team member

could that be it and what you're doing is you're taking again your knowledge of who that person is again their baseline what the pattern of life is like and that might have been out of character for them so now you're you're asking them to to say all right you you're identifying one thing you have a bad feeling about that person and you're giving them an opportunity to talk and say no it's not that I have a bad feeling about that person it's just that that idea I we heard that before it didn't

work last time and I really wanted the team to stretch okay appreciate that thank you for that and hey that's great and then tied into leadership validate them in some way so all things yeah yeah just really quickly to add to that right like I'm just thinking throughout my career and Melissa I love for you to weigh in here too right like I'm thinking about all the bosses that I have throughout my career and I would say no one took an interest in what my goals my aspirations my beliefs where I

wanted to go no one really took an interest I mean occasionally they would really care you want this training because it's in our budget and we just we we we put it in like hey we've got every year it's a yearly budget why don't you want to go do they this thing no one really took an interest and I just think if more companies if more leaders if more managers took an interest in the people they were actually managing and through way these old concepts of like the sandwich method and and

pips which should never work really because you never really get into the heart of the matter right all of these things that were all taught in management and leadership that was supposed to work to move someone to change and move someone to do more of what we want to change their approach idea to motivate them really is broken and and our book our book what it really does is it examines what motivates people to change how you can do it in everyday settings and things like listening

in a deep deep level with forensic listening this will make all the difference if you take one thing away from our book and trust me we have like 50 actionable takeaways in our book more even but if you take away forensic listening as the one thing that you do everyone on your team will feel more hurt more seen more validated and their emotions will be actually felt by the person that managing them I mean think about the level of retention the level of excitement people will have

to come into their job the way at which people will work even if you don't pay them more if you do this if you do this this is what people want they want validation within anything oh well said and I I also echo you I haven't had a lot of in my W2 jobs I've I've not had a lot of people that actively were trying to help me get to where I'm going if ever and to your earlier point you know mentors and leaders in your company I agree with you find someone outside your company because

they're going to have a bias when you work inside that company man or woman so I absolutely echo that from your perspective and and I do listening you know the analogy always plates your my mind you have two years in one mouth use them proportionately and although we laugh and joke about it very few people are actively listening to understand because we're listening to respond or defend or whatever the reason that we're we're listening and so I absolutely agree with you and

and from your perspective as out how do you incorporate behavior analysis from a PR lens let's take a look at from your lens using your PR experience and how people can use what they see to effectively communicate in any capacity yeah so a couple of different things right I mean there's

so much you can use from a PR perspective just from messaging what does that person sound like well how do they come across what words do they use I think not to brag but I think I'm really good at messaging because I pay deep attention to how people talk and if you and especially when I was dealing with like heads of state CEOs of major multi-billion dollar companies my my PR counterparts a lot of times would hand them messaging that got all of what they wanted to get across

but did not sound anything like the person they were actually writing them for and or they would just deliver too many messages at once and they weren't really taking into account how this person had to memorize and what fears they were had and how they they feared they were going to come across and I think that is so critical in being good at messaging and being good at representing other executives so that's that's that's certainly one level the other the other the other recommendation I

would have and this is like a more simple kind of profiling method right and chip really is like the expert on like reading people he's so much better at this than me that I could ever be right I mean this he's trained at this this is like his his expertise and it is not mine but but but I would say like you know street smart girl from New York New Jersey I think I so I think I have some good situation all awareness but one thing I would say is understand what your convincing style is like

and and know what what the other person's convincing style or preferences are like and be able to adapt and here's what I mean so Melissa would you say you're more and this is just a gut does a gut reaction so it's not it's not like it's not like you're just one or just the other but we think there's two convincing styles right you're either an emotional convincing so you use stories you use feelings use emotions or you're a fact-based convinced or you use stats use data use research

to to to bring your point home what would you say you're your your emotional yeah I would agree too I that's what I would think too right you're definitely a story-based person right like that is like what how you communicate and how you bring it right but when you're talking to someone else who is a fact-based convinced or or likes to be convinced from facts do you adapt and do you come at them first with facts and you come at them with data and our preference usually what we like to do is we

go we're just we're to convince them that we we want to be convinced and that is so backwards and just if you come at them from that more back-based approach and that's what they want you know that's the kind of data they want and I'll tell a quick funny story I wanted to buy a Mercedes and I really wanted to buy when I had made a significant revenue amount and I got pushback from my now ex-husband there's a reason but to buy the car right and and he was like we're really

I don't know I'm like okay you know he's the fact I'm like I look so good at it come on it's the car they always I've always wanted best you know I wanted I want a Mercedes because it spells success and like again I'm coming from that emotional argument like every time I'll get in it I'll feel good I'll remember my accomplishment and he was like whatever okay and I'm like all right he's an engineer you know that's not how he wants to be convinced so I went and I did some research I'm like

Mercedes are the safest safest luxury car in the market they've got the best resale value that you know they've got they maintain the right whatever whatever and then he was like okay I'll buy it but I should about the car to begin with there's another lesson in that ladies but anyway I shouldn't have even asked but the point is is that like you have to come at your convincing approach the way the person wants to receive it and most of us won't adapt at all at all

at all because we don't think about it you nailed it it's I love that you're talking about that because I'm very high energy and if I walk up to a lower calmer lower energy person they're like whoa they've been hit by you know a train right and so I think you're spot on with understanding who you're talking to and how they need the information so if it's facts give them facts if it's stories given stories and really I forget that book but five secrets of love languages are I think there's

one in the workplace now and so learning who you work with and how they respond is very helpful with success on building teams and working cohesively in in the corporate America today and one way to determine how some what someone's style is and we we have this in the book and I kind of love this ask them about the most recent vacation they took and see what they focus on about the vacations is it where they stayed how much they paid what the hotel was their experiences that's more of

that's more of a back-based person who's more focused on money versus the person who's like it was so nice to spend time with family I got to unwind that it's just gonna tell you so much about who they are and what kind of convince her they are and what is it was just don't pay attention to small talk but small talk is anything but small it actually tells you so much about who the person is.

100% I agree that's a great tip I'm gonna totally pivot years now and talk about I love the discussion about talking about fear and how to overcome it I grew up with a father that was military and so what I thought was normal is not really normal because a lot of times we're paralyzed by fear in the world like fear of applying for a job or you know fear of flying on a plane or whatever the fear is we're so paralyzed by fear and then when life happens because it's

gonna happen to all of us we're gonna have to respond to the situations that happen to us in our life so I want to talk ship you know fear is a significant factor in high stakes negotiation and what technique you're using is key during negotiation and so can you share a little bit about how to manage fear and maintain composure when you're trying to negotiate anything?

Yeah absolutely one of the I guess leading concepts that that we talk about is the idea of the dial-in method or reversing the focus so so for example as a hostage negotiator I actually never negotiated with anyone that wasn't my job it's kind of a misnomer my job was to convince that person who had a gun to somebody's head in that apartment to value what I valued which was life which was peaceful surrender which was releasing the hostages now it didn't start there it didn't it never

started there right because their way escalated they you know they're in crisis mode they've got that reptilian brain online and their analyticals are all the way down at all present so my job was to slowly like Adele was saying in the convincing continuum to bring them down from I want 20 million dollars in a jet to hey can you help me get out of here alive that's that was the idea that's what

it now that's a process but in order to get there you know I had to dial in to that person to such a degree that everything else falls away here's what I mean is that if I'm thinking about he's got five people in there he's got a gun and if I'm focusing on the gun Melissa I'm lost because all I'm thinking now is bad outcomes that guy's got a weapon he's violent he's you know he's up and down he's

he's you know obviously in crisis mode what if I say they're wrong what if I do is it and I'm thinking about the gun and what it can do so instead of thinking about the gun for and for your example for executives that are dealing with a high pressure situation what is that thing that is like a gun to them it could be I got to make this number I don't get this number in the negotiation my boss is gonna eat me alive or I know if I miss the second point here and I don't come through on it I'm dead

whatever that gun is for you get it out of your head and focus instead on that individual that you're dealing with can I just go ahead and something real quickly because I just think this is such a poignant thing have you guys been watching the Olympics I mean it has just been right it is so interesting okay so last night and I don't want to date the podcast but last night there were a bunch of gymnasts and there was this high beam being activity right and the best girl the best

girl fell off the high beam and then the girl after her she fell and then the next girl she fell and so on and so forth I mean like they all fell and the girl the girl who won the gold medal was like I can't believe I won the gold medal because I just did the routine as I needed to she didn't fall that's how she got the gold medal she just did not fall and I think that that is just such an interesting throughline to what you just said Chip I think there's emotional contagion if you see

someone in stressful situations if you think about their stress and you take it on it could actually make you less effective it could make you less in the game less in the moment and less likely to get the outcomes you want in business and so I think you've got to take with Chip saying take their stress understand it and then detach from it how do you do that Chip like how do you detach from it yes I'm sorry Melissa one but yeah interesting yeah I think you're right because there I

come flashy shiny things the gun could be one of the flashy shiny thing there's a ton of distractions it could be the bar it could be the audience it could be the noise it could be all the things that's going on around you and and these athletes are you know they're in interesting living conditions there's people yelling there's a lot going on people are yelling they're in a high pressure high state environment and they all want the gold so to kind of your point is you don't focus on the

the rain that's outside or the beam that's this or the yelling of the crowd you focus on your mission your mission is to get gold and it's to land on that beam it's across the finish line and there's going to be people that are trying to get you off your game like everything in life people are like oh you know she's a really good speaker or he's really good at business and there's always going to be these people that are taking us off our game and that is where what you guys are talking about is

key because when you can focus on your game whatever your game is and get the emotion out of it and forget about the gun and focus on getting that person out of the room safely and you can sound convincing and calm and you can kind of I don't want to you know metaphysically say like throw your energy over the line but you can you can mean mean what you say and so you're you're right I think Adele you're spot on and Chip I'd love to also get your perspective on that

yeah it is it's it's it's that simple it's about you know you have to remember is who's crisis is this you know not yours you're there simply to help this person through that I can't go in knock the gun out of his hand pull the hostages out there's a reason that I have to use my voice to talk to him but I'm not caught up into what is going on with that gun I'm caught up with let's deal with your issues let you know you're you're you're it today we're going to deal with you

you know because that's the only way I can help anybody you dial in so much to that other person right Chip that everything else falls away right I'm not thinking about the helicopters overhead or the squawking on the radios or you know the press that's outside or the sirens I'm only focused in on what's in front of you just that Melissa what you saying about the metaphysical thing is so fascinating

because when we when we wrote the book we actually talked to a neuroscientist whose name is Michael plaque doctor Michael plaque and he's such an interesting and inspiring person too to follow so definitely check out this stuff if you haven't but one of the things he talks about is this idea of sinking sinking with another person so you're telling them stories group activities there's different ways which you literally neurologically sink with another person so what you're saying about

the metaph... I mean it's a thing it's an actual thing in neuroscience at which if you dial into a person if you sink with them at such a level you know Chip is so your eyebrow go off you can be super effective right I mean like maybe maybe I'm getting to am I getting to woo well okay it's really true right I think you're right so if you look at I'll take one of my favorites Michael Jordan I'll take Simone Biles

we saw with her with the gold you know they're focusing on what they're doing right everybody's trying to press her oh she's gonna get another gold is she not gonna get another gold now when when when she hears she's not gonna get another gold she can either say A screw them I'm getting a gold anyway and move it out of the mind and focus on the gold or she could say oh you're right I didn't practice enough I'm not strong on this the other girl's stronger I'm not sure I'm not feeling

great my stomach's hurting and we could go down this deep deep dark rabbit hole of overthinking over-processing and so there is some truth to that you know as an athlete I've done a lot of visualizing myself frost the finish line you know being better than I really was and really just focusing on not so much everything that was around me but what was I could control right and we can't control the gun we can't control the people on the other side but we can control how we're

reacting and what we can control in our environment so Melissa can can you unpack that just I find what you just said so interesting could you yeah for me for me could you unpack the idea of how do you get yourself out of that bad space but I mean I just think that's that's something nobody really talks about it's like that overthinking that over like over-analysing room and nation so many of us do how do you pull yourself out of that because there's a comfort in the failure isn't there

because the the failure sort of predictable the success is what's what's unpredictable how how would you advise people to how would you advise them to get out of that I'm sorry I just I just I'm like I'm dying yeah I think you know you know I grew up you know you know I was way behind

scholastically starting and so many people are like oh she's not gonna do this she's not gonna be doing that and and I'll give like the hurt my early childhood credits my dad because he sat me down young and he said hey look everybody's gonna tell you you can't you have to decide if you can or you can't and get rid of all the noise so I think a lot of its practice like how do we get good at negotiation

how do we get good at confidence confidence we don't just all wake up with confidence we're not born with it none of us are born with it we have to fall off our bike and get back on the bike again and fall off again and scratch our knee and realize you know you got to slow down downhill and I think it's just practice and then when there's that noise around us like the people that are like oh why did you post that or why are you wearing that or hey you you're really aggressive in these emails

it's part of its awareness I believe that you know if somebody I've been told all kinds of things that I absolutely disagree with and I tell that person I'm sorry you feel that way I have many others who would disagree and I give them back that energy right because I'm not taking on their you know belief that they think that I'm not smart enough to finish first grade so I'm like I'm sorry you feel that way my dad feels that I'm gonna pass it so I'm gonna focus on

that right so give it back give that negative you know when I had a child older people are like oh no you're gonna be in the hospital you're not gonna be able to do it you're too old and I just you know I joked out I was telling people hey I'm making a baby you're take back your negative energy and and and I think it's just as simple as that is deciding what you let in and what you let out and when you question yourself like I'm sure all these athletes are like God can I do it so and

so is better so and so is faster focusing on on you yep I'm gonna get gold I'm gonna hit the finish line I'm gonna get a PR I got this I'm feeling good I'm feeling healthy you know sometimes you got to move your body to do it right like you said all day you're like you know sluggish you got to get up and move so I think you know I don't I'm not sure if I answered your question but I think really it's not taking in all the negativity that's around us these days and then it's

like pushing some of it out and if there is validation for some of it let's say someone gives you some that you agree with work on it right I've been given all kinds of advice that I disagree and agree with it some I flushed down the toilet and others of it I actually worked on and made myself a better person and a better leader and so I think it's up to us to decide whose noise we're gonna take on in a world that's constantly moving faster constantly changing you know

we're all gonna struggle with you know what you guys teach right we're all gonna struggle with making tough decisions and so I think it's just practice to Adel yeah oh yes totally I agree I agree you know early on in my career I had I had someone I had someone say like you know you're you know you're you're just not a really good writer and I'm like hmm um like okay um that's interesting that's an interesting piece of feedback like what where where did that come from because

I've always been told all my life that I'm a good writer like maybe they've got some feedback but then I went and I looked and I realized they're not a good writer they weren't a good writer and it made me go like I don't really take why am I taking criticism from someone else I don't respect I don't think has more talent than me it's like I think sometimes we don't analyze that we just take in that like insult and we internalize it instead of going who is who is saying it who is

the messenger because that's also one of those things right they can get you out of that the dark spot right do you respect them are they do they have what you want whatever it is right so if you want to hear the spying CEO or an aspiring mom or a spider spying gardener to the person that's giving you feedback how would you want or do they have no skill set if they don't and they're not they could just be you know giving you noise trying to tear you down all those

kind of negative words that go with it so um we get to decide that is humans and um that's up to us and our individual life and our community that can you know pull that forward for us but I want to just kind of enclosing get each of your just final thoughts or anything that we I know we've covered a lot of ground anything that we may have missed or anything that you want to share with our listeners as

we close out the one thing I would say is that um there was a study done just last year on judgment and decision making and it said that most of us are as convincing as we will ever be at age six and if you're a mom and your mom's or listening parents are listening you you know kids that are six are pretty convincing they're pretty good negotiators right by the time you're six you understand supply and demand self-interest um I mean like all kinds of really high high level negotiation

tactics but most of us stop at about first grade from being convinced if we because if we solve in the playground we're likely going to solve for being office because it got us where we wanted to go to do what I would just implore people to do is to take on this book to read it to study it to actually implement these tactics some of which make you uncomfortable or maybe some of which you don't want to implement because you've always done it a certain way and you've gotten pretty good results

what I would say is maybe it's you maybe some of the strategies that you've used that haven't gotten you the results you want you want is because you're not willing to adapt you know willing to try new things because it's scary and what I would say is go try to think her to in our book just one or

two and it will be so much more convincing as a result and that's a really great point um one thing at a time not ten things right you you keyed one really important nugget is one thing you can't implement 50 strategies you can implement one and I would suggest the one that is closest to achieving success right whatever the easiest low-hanging fruit is hit that first and then kind of strengthen your muscle and go for the harder thing so I love that you mentioned one um chip any

your final thoughts that we may have missed you know I just would like to you know emphasize and encourage just like a down just did is is that you know these skill sets like the forensic listening you know even if you're just you know you concoble together all right I'm listening to the voice here and I'm paying attention to the themes or you know just bringing some of that into the to the four ways of observing somebody you use one or two of them but you're you're gonna get better

as you do this right it's about reps and if you do reps in the right way uh that that we you know advocate you're gonna be so much more ahead of of the person that just is mailing it in yep you know because you're trying you're trying to make a connection absolutely well said I thank you both so much for being here your time get their book connect with um that's the executive connect podcast [BLANK_AUDIO]