Internal coaching supervision 3: Sandra Wilson

Welcome back to this EMCC UK podcast series where we explore the topic of internal coaching supervision. In this episode, our hosts Catherine St. Jim Brooks and Jeremy Gon speak to Sandra Wilson. Sandra leads the coaching and mentoring function within the British Transport Police. Sandra is also an EMCC accredited coaching supervisor herself. Prior to her current role, Sandra also led the cross-governmental coaching service in the UK Civil Service.

which has over 100 internal coaches. In today's conversation Catherine and Jeremy discuss with Sandra the important role supervision plays in supporting the wellbeing of the internal coach, as well as how supervision can help key themes for the ongoing CPD for internal coaches and the value of external supervision. for in-house coach supervisors. We hope you enjoyed this conversation and if you're new to the podcast don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss a future episode.

Our guest today is Sandra Wilson. I first met Sandra when she headed up coaching in the Cabinet Office. She was responsible then for a large network of internal coaches right across Whitehall. But today we're going to be talking to her in her current role as coaching and mentoring lead for the British Transport Police. Sandra, welcome. Hi, it's lovely for you, for Jeremy and yourself to invite me to this podcast.

And I just thought as part of the welcome that I'll sort of tell a little bit about myself. So I basically lead coaching. I've led coaching services for over five years. Firstly, as you mentioned, Catherine, with the cabinet office. leading a cross-government cadre of over 120 internal executive coaches. I currently lead four British Transport Police, both the internal coaching and mentoring service.

which we have over 100 people who give up their time voluntarily to help their colleagues. And some of them are coaches and some of them are mentors. And some of them wear both hats because they like to wear both hats. Our coaches and mentors range from police officers, that's the officer on the beat, to senior police officials. and police staffs at different grades. We have just over 5,000 people working in British Transport Police and we're the only national force within the UK.

And so basically, coaching and mentoring has been set up to help people in their career development and their leadership skills primarily. and to learn skills whilst they're in their work. So yeah, I'm very proud to be leading that service. You know, the coaches and mentors are very dedicated to the work that they do.

And as I said, they do it in a voluntary capacity. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. Well, that's, I mean, it's a fantastic effort. I mean, that does sound like a really large number of coaches and mentors. Jeremy, I actually would... We've both had some experience with hierarchical organisations, in my case with police and fire and rescue services, and Jeremy with the armed forces, and we've been reflecting a bit that this can sometimes give rise to...

to nervousness on the part of coaches who maybe are coaching colleagues who are senior to them in the hierarchy. Does that have any resonance for you? Oh, definitely. But not only in the police force, but also when I worked for cabinet office as well. And it's a challenging one, particularly when someone is very, very new to coaching where they just get in themselves.

you know, skilled up. I always advise coaches to push themselves through this mental barrier because it's usually about their limiting beliefs and always feeling that the person knows more than them when it's not actually about that. So on the flip side, I also believe it's important for coaches to coach within their own competency and where they actually feel comfortable. So it's a bit of a strange one, really, where.

I encourage them to coach people much sooner than themselves, but at the same time, I want them to be comfortable that that works for them. And I've noticed that when coaches come to supervision... they sometimes are astonished and can't believe that a senior official would want to work for them. But as well as coaches, seasoned coaches ourselves, that coaches are about supporting someone to think through their issue and not offering advice.

And it's about them finding their own solutions. But as I say, when people are new to coaching, they find this very, very difficult. In policing, particularly on the police side, it's even more difficult because the hierarchical structure is really set. So, again, that's a bit of a barrier for a lot of our coaches within British Transport Police. But some are venturing out, but others are sort of keeping within the rank system because that's where they feel comfortable.

That's very interesting. Thank you, Sandra. And I still think that there is an issue in some organizations where the most senior people take external coaching rather than internal coaching. I think we've still got some work to do to ensure that internal coaches get the credit that they deserve in terms of the quality of the coaching that they offer. But that's another thing, I guess.

I mean, absolutely. I agree. I mean, we still have that where senior people would rather go externally. But I don't think it's necessary that they don't trust the coaching offer within the organisation. I think it's just that they feel... They don't want to share that amount of information with someone who is at maybe at the bottom half of the organisation. And also we've got to think about for the coach, what's it like for them holding that information in their head?

Indeed, I absolutely agree. Yeah, it's quite difficult. So, but I also believe that... It's not only a problem within hierarchical organisations, I think in most organisations, a very junior person would find it very, very difficult to coach someone at, say, chief executive level.

Yes, I agree. And indeed, it's an added issue for supervision. So we were looking at different definitions of supervision in some of our podcasts. What's the meaning of supervision for you in the British Transformation? Transport police? Well, I just want to say, when I started working with BTP, so I've been there two years in September, there was a bit of a need to refresh the coaching and mentoring offer.

And although there was some supervision taking place with coaches, I thought it was important to offer that provision to all our internal coaches and mentors. So our supervision is for coaches and mentors, which I know is a little bit unusual. But for me, having thought about the culture and the complexity in which we work, I thought it was really important that...

mentors were also offered as supervision as well. So myself and the other two BTP supervisors affectionately call it wraparound care. So it's still coach supervision, but we've got it in quotes, wraparound care. And the reason we've called it that is because our people are really dealing with difficult circumstances.

and we just felt it was a way of appealing to them because traditionally supervision has been about looking at their work and correcting it and we're not even though there's a part of us that are doing that it's not really All that we do, we're really looking at the wellbeing of the coach and the mentor and how they're coping with the cases that they're dealing with. So we call it rack around care, but it's still supervision, but rack around care.

attached to it that's very interesting i really like that phrase actually um it's I might even adopt it, if you don't mind. That's fine. Great. I like it very much. Can you tell us a bit about the scale and the scope of coaching in the BTP? How did it all begin? How does it all begin? Well, coach, within BT and mentoring, and I mentioned mentoring first, it's very, very much well established. But admittedly, mainly when someone is focusing on promotion.

And coaching, although slightly established when I came into post, there was the old question about what's the difference between coaching and mentoring? And that's the other sort of thing that we all have to deal with. So when the reins were handed over to me by the then talent manager, Catherine Chowdhury, she had worked tirelessly to incorporate coaching within BTP.

So it started way before I got into post. But at the time I got into post, it was COVID. And there was a lot of demotivation amongst coaches and mentors simply because, you know, they're having to deal with... Covid, they're having to do with so many other things that when I came into post, it was a very motivated bunch. So in terms of our culture.

What we're working through is the cuttlebuck medicine definition of coaching culture, which is coaching is the predominant style of managing and working together. And where a commitment to grow the organisation is embedded in a parallel commitment to grow the people in the organisation. So again, I've taken that and affectionately called it coaching within BTP is the golden thread.

that underpins our culture and the development of our people. So again, I'm using theory, but adapting it for BTP purposes. And that really helps because I think even though you may have an idea of what a coaching culture will be you have to adapt it to the organization so yeah we've had some good work that was done before but for me it was about what else could we do to make it

work within an organization which is traditionally control and command. So how I see it is that control and command is really, really important. It's part of the bedrock of the organization. And in emergencies, that's fantastic. And it works really well. But when we're managing our people, our coaching style is really how we want to move forward with that.

So, yeah, so it was very much in the organisation. I'm just taking it a bit further and embedding some sort of key things within the organisation as well. Great. And roughly how many coaches and how many mentors do you have? We have about 50-50 at the moment. We have 50-50. 50% of each or 50? 50% of each, yeah.

A lot of the coaches double up as mentors as well, certainly because if they're quite senior, people prefer to have a mentor rather than a coach. So, yeah, they double up sometimes as well.

Okay, thank you. I mean, that's a lot of people to keep track of. What's your system for providing supervision? I mean, it's great that your mentors have access to it as well as the coaches. How often? Who has access? How do you sell it to them? Because sometimes, of course, it can be difficult to get people to make the time for it. Tell us a bit how it works. Well, at the moment, we have three qualified supervisors.

I'm one, I have two of my colleagues. And anyone that is a coach or mentor can access supervision free of charge at any time they want. And they do this by simply emailing us and asking us for... some coaching or supervision and that's how they access it. The take-up hasn't been great admittedly and I think again it's because

It's about getting that message that we're here to help. We're here to develop you. We're here to work with you as opposed to supervision being seen as checking that they're doing the right job or not. So that's how they access it. And the other way in which we want to introduce, particularly this year, is to have some set dates of group supervision where people can just turn that as and when they want it.

And I find sometimes people feel a little bit more safer in groups because other people mention things that they're thinking about. And as supervisors, we provide advice, we provide help. And also some development if that's what they want, really. But I think within the police service generally, that's what I'm hearing, is it's difficult for people to ask for help. So given that context.

I'm not surprised that we don't get as much take-up as we would like. But I think that culture is changing, particularly with a new generation of police officials and new people joining. the police force, they're more eager to ask for help rather than some of the more established people. I find that really, really interesting. I'd never really thought before about the crossover between whether people would...

participate in and ask for supervision and how that might interact with a culture of an organisation where you don't tend to ask for help. So that supervision is seen as sort of... help if things are going wrong as opposed to a way of developing your developing yourself as a coach that's a really interesting point and I'm I'm wondering when you're saying so people can access one-to-one help by the sound of it

dilemma or something they could I mean one of the things I want to encourage them to do is to access supervision to help them in their practice and develop their practice but what we're getting is people that get stuck And they come for supervision or they've got a real issue and then they come for supervision. But I want them all to see it as a way of developing their practice. It will take time, I know.

But that's something that I'm quite eager for people to sort of look at it as. This is for you. This is for your practice. This is to help you in your in your development. It's not about criticizing or anything like that. So it's a very difficult and a very challenging environment in that sense. Can I just add something that I'm involved in at the moment, which is supervising a group of coaches on a community project. And I was introducing myself to one of them the other day who...

talked about their reluctance, let's say, to take on one-to-one supervision, not really understanding the value of it. And then... undertaking it and wondering why on earth she had never done this before because of the value that it brought you know so I'm just wondering if there's a way as a I mean I'm part of my role as a supervisor

is to promote supervision so at the moment i'm working with with another group a group of four supervisors uh other supervisors and it's one of our uh goals is to raise the profile of supervision with coaches particularly internal coaches, who are reluctant to take it up for the kind of reasons that you're outlining, which you put very clearly, thank you. And certainly I've learned from that. But I do wonder if there's a way in which we can help you in terms of.

expressing the value of supervision is there something else that needs to happen do you think with your coaches that would really grab their imagination and make them feel that this is something not that is there just to answer a question that they can't answer for themselves, but to raise their whole level of confidence alongside their ability and also their enthusiasm for coaching.

I think one of the things I want them to choose is the supervisors themselves doing CPD with the coaches and mentors and doing it by role play as opposed to telling. So I think unless they actually see the benefits themselves, I don't think we'll ever win them over because I think the term supervision is, I use it because that's the term that's generally used, but maybe it's the wrong term. I don't know what term should be used.

But you're right, I've had the same. I had a chief inspector come to see me because she had a particular issue. And in the end, I said, part of the problem is you're not looking after yourself. You need to take time out. And she was relieved that she could actually take that time away from the coaching and come back later when she had restored herself. But it's almost as if she needed permission to do that. So I think...

There's not actually much role play going on out there about what actually happens within a supervision setting. And that's one of the things that I want. to do within British Transport Police is possibly do some YouTube videos so people can see exactly what happens in supervision. But again, I do think the term itself...

is not possibly the right term, particularly in today's world where people may feel they're being reprimanded. That's what supervision means, and it's not at all. A lot of it is about restoring. their well-being. A lot of it's about talking through what's going on for them. No one's going to take away their stripes as such. It's about how we help that person develop their coaching and mentoring practice.

And I will emphasise the importance of including mentors within supervision as well, because they are equally doing a fantastic amount of work and they need support as well. Absolutely. Thank you for that. I think the idea of the role play is great. We'll try it ourselves and see what we can come up with and we'll share it with you if it's any good. Yeah, sounds good.

Equally, when we do ours, if you want to come to our CPD session, we can learn from each other. Excellent. Thank you very much for that. Sorry. working beyond the podcast here, Catherine. I was about to go outside even more, in a sense, in that I was at a workshop last week where... the organisation had been doing taster sessions so that people understood what coaching was. And a month earlier, they'd started introducing what they called taster sessions of supervision.

for their coaches, because they felt that it would be less daunting if the idea of them just coming on to a taster session rather than them actually committing to coming to group supervision regularly and so on. The taster session was so successful that the people who were in that group decided they wanted that group to stay as that group and that group to speak regularly. So often I think it's about sort of marketing it, isn't it?

Making people understand or helping people to understand what the benefits are. Well, I was going to just share something that when I was studying for my postgrad certificate at Oxford Brookes. One of the things with Oxford Books is you have to have a supervisor. So they sort of allocate someone that's volunteered to help the students as they go through their work. And it took me something like six weeks.

to actually have the guts to pick the phone up to make an appointment. There you go then. So I felt that myself. I felt that someone was going to be scrutinising my work.

and possibly saying it wasn't good enough. So it's interesting that all those years ago I had that feeling. And when I spoke about that in the class, a lot of people around the table felt exactly the same way. So it's how we can... make supervision more customer friendly yeah that's so lovely about your wraparound care yeah that's why i just thought it's got to be wraparound care because you know

The people that work for the police are working really, really hard in really difficult circumstances. And if they feel they can go somewhere... um where people care about them because that's what it's about it's about care it's about um you know taking care of them then maybe they might sort of not look at it in the harsh tones in which it comes across

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I mean, some organizations talk about one of the benefits of supervision, you know, on top of the benefits of the individual coaches, that there are organizational benefits in that. Often themes may emerge from supervision, which they can use to help the organisation, so really feed into organisational learning. Have you had any themes emerge that you've been able to use?

Well, I think one of the things for me is one that Jeremy mentioned that, you know, people are a bit nervous about undertaking supervision. That's what's led me to think, well, what can we as supervisors do to make it more? customer focused that's number one point secondly it it also helps um us understand um the learning that's needed in the organization the additional cpd sessions that

that are needed and one of the things that we picked up on was ethics. So I had one of the lecturers from Oxford Brookes University, she's doing two sessions for us on ethics and values. And the coaches that have attended that have really, really, and the mentors as well, have really, really enjoyed that lecture. So that's something that came out of supervision for me, that maybe we need to do some more work around that.

So, yeah, there's lots of learning, you know, also showing us the competency of our coaches and mentors. And one of the key things that came out of there is that sort of confidence, limiting beliefs. So one of the things I want to introduce is, you know, how do you contract with people? Because even though they don't know how to contract, sort of do some, again, role play on contracting. And I think it's something that Jeremy mentioned a while ago.

that no one actually sees coaches coaching. Yeah. Or mentors mentoring. No one actually sees that. So I think there's something about introducing what that could actually look like, not for people to copy, but for people to actually... get more of a visual of how it actually works in practice. There's a lot of literature written on this but not a lot of visuals and that appeals to people that don't necessarily want to read but they want to see.

Yeah. So I think there's a lot to be done in that space. So the information I've got really is firstly, as I said, it was about the confidence issue and also, you know, where are we in BTP? How are our people? coping on the ground? What are the issues for, say, for example, the lower level staff that are coaches? What are the issues for the senior coaches and mentors?

From that, I divide CPD around what I hear in supervision. So that helps me reach out to other people and say, can you come into BTP and do a course for us on this or on that? One of the big things was which Catherine, our previous manager, picked up on was the lack of diversity in the coaches community. in BTP and as a result of that 10 of our coaches were put on a course run by Mastering Your Power which is a lady Sharma Shah specialises in

in developing coaches of different backgrounds through a lens of equality. And as a result of that, we've increased our number of coaches that come from diverse backgrounds. And I think one of the, because I did ask the question, what was the reason for doing that rather than just going to a normal provider? A lot of it was that a lot of people from diverse backgrounds weren't actually using coaching and they were suspicious.

So, again, that's going to come out of supervision as well. What's it like being a coach from a different background? How are you using that in your practice? So as a result of that, I want to do more work around diversity, particularly neurodiversity in coaching as well. Again, I want to do some CPD.

to help coaches understand that when you are meeting someone for the first time, it's not just about the needs of wanting to discuss what's going on for their career, where they want to move forward. It's about how can you adjust your... style to suit the needs of that individual thank you yeah i'm wondering too uh sandra if there's if part of that learning is beyond the coaching

cadre and it's it's really about what is the organization itself learning about itself from the themes that emerge from supervision do you are you able to share those in in any way with say the senior management team Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I would always, particularly the neurodiversity one, it's bigger than the coaching community, as you say. It's much bigger and it's how we work with people generally.

that say that they have neurodiverse conditions or how do we work with them generally not only in the coaching, not only in mentoring but also with our public, with our community, with the community that we serve.

Excellent. That's great. And you mentioned the apprenticeship scheme earlier. I wondered how that had influenced your thinking on internal supervision. Well, with the apprenticeship scheme, it's the first time that we've gone down this route. um to develop our coaches and basically all our apprentices when we so we went we went down we've gone down this route and we've got 20 people on a level five apprenticeship

at the moment, which will take them about 15 to 16 months to complete. And because it is a very, very new initiative, myself and the other supervisors and lead coaches. felt it was really important to provide them with some support at the organisational level. So what we've done is we've basically divided the cohort into two and... two supervisors would supervise one cohort and then other two. So we split ourselves up to supervise the other cohort. And basically we put dates in the diary.

And people turn up as, you know, as and when and whatever questions they have, we try to help them with that. And we've had questions around, you know, how do we get coaches? We've had questions around what's the best way to contract. We've had loads of questions about how do I get started, the confidence stuff.

The stuff that Catherine came in to help our apprentice with quite recently at our CPD session recently. They look great. So we're using supervision for them to help develop them, really. into really great coaches to answer any questions of the organisation and also offer individual supervision if they want it.

but they also get that support on the apprenticeship scheme as well. But as an organisation, because I want them to get through, I want them to pass, it's really important that we're seen to be providing, as I say, that wraparound care. So not only are they getting care from the apprentice, the apprenticeship provider, they're also getting looked after within the organisation as well, because I really would like them all to pass. I think it's really important.

Excellent. That's really good. You talked about the wraparound care, which is a phrase that, as you know, I've already adopted. And the other things that you're doing. And I'm wondering if. You're noticing where supervision is generating real benefits in the way in which the coaching practice is developing.

Again, I think, as I said before, I think for myself, as supervisors, we also have external supervisors that come in and supervise our work. And that was something that I felt quite strongly about because... Even though we're all educated, we've all been on the training, we also need support too. So it's showing that wraparound care coming right through supervisors. You know, you've got external people coming in, supervising us. We're supervising people.

And it's just showing that all of us, regardless of where you are in the chain, whatever that chain is, everybody needs that. Yes, I'm hoping that by them knowing that we also get supervision, that that sends in the message that once you're working with people, once you're coaching or mentoring people, you need to really look after yourself. It's all about the self. If you're...

not looking after yourself, you cannot look after people. I've always rather liked that analogy of, you know, if an aircraft's going down... You need to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your child or on somebody else. The idea that, you know, you have to look after yourself first if you're going to be able to effectively look after others.

Absolutely. And I believe in that so much because I just believe you get leakage. If you're angry inside, there's no way you can put on the mask of a coach and people will not pick up that anger. because you haven't sorted yourself out first so for me supervision is really about taking care of yourself in your role and making sure and one of the things I do is I always say to people don't coach more than you can

Because some people that are coaches and mentors want to help. And because of that, they find it difficult to say no, but they have to do their job. And this is on top of their day job. So I'm there to sort of look at how we're managing that. on top of everything else that you have to manage so if you don't take that's what i said with this particular um supervision session that i had i advised the coach to take some time out to look after themselves first take three months out

just to give themselves a break and then come back renewed, refreshed. You know, so that at the end of the day, we are only one holistic human being. And at the end of the day, there's nowhere you can say, I'm a coach today. even though I'm hurting tomorrow, it doesn't work. You bring your whole self into the coaching arena. So therefore that has to be looked after as well.

Thank you. And actually, I hadn't asked you about what your expectation is of your coaches and mentors in terms of how many clients they might have at any one time. Well, it's a difficult one because of the business that we're in. see if you've got a copper on the beat they they work shift work they work long hours um and they may only be able to take one person a year and that's okay because

They're coaching within their competence. They're coaching within their capability. And you might get someone else that has more control over their diary and can have five people. And that's good as well. So what I have done is not discriminated between those that can and those that cannot take people on. There's times when people can't take anyone on for whatever reason. That's okay too.

But what I have the expectations is that they do come to CPD when you put them on. I've asked to please access supervision. I'm going to make it mandatory that they do that once you're working with someone to have some... supervision and we've got wonderful we've got four lead coaches that also look after coaches and mentors within the divisions as well so I've got other people that are looking after them

And we have got a really great champion for coaching and mentoring. Again, he's very much about looking after people and making sure that they're at their best when they're helping others as well. So that has been... It's just something that I came in, I think, because I am a servant leader and I'm about caring for people. I think when you're in coaching and mentoring, it is about caring for people. I think my leadership style is filtered through the organisation. It's very different.

to what they're probably used to. But that's what I bring. This is who I am. And I'm seeing more people talk about... You've got to look after yourself. You know, it's very important to put yourself first. I'm thinking, OK, this is working and that's good. Thank you. I was wondering, before we wrap up, could you tell us a bit about...

the app that you've developed, because it sounded pretty innovative. Can you tell us a bit about that? Yeah, when I came into post, basically the person that was leading coach at the time was matching people to coaches and mentors. And I'm going to put my hands up and say, I'm not good at spreadsheets. I'm not good at doing that kind of intensive admin work. And plus, I think because I came from cabinet office, which is more strategic.

thinking uh place I was thinking this is not the best use of my time how am I going to actually um you know lift the organization into a coaching culture if I'm if my head is down in admin So the app idea really came out of a dating app. Not that I've used a dating app, but a lot of young people tell me about these dating apps. And I thought, well, why not give the person the authority?

or empower them to select their own coach or mentor why am i doing this for them you know this is just a waste of their time because i might match with someone that's completely not suitable at all but at least this way they can look on the app they can get a summary of the the person they can you know arrange to meet them and decide whether it's going to work for them or not so we've launched the app we've launched it force-wide

But we're limiting it at the moment because we're still working on some of the technical ability of it. And also I'm writing a strategy as well. So I want to incorporate some of that within the app as well. But at the moment, if someone wants to coach your mentor, they go into the app, they've got a picture, they've got a summary of what they do, and they just click and decide to make an appointment with that person, and they have to provide them with a summary.

of what they want and then the person will then make an opportunity to meet them, make a date in the diary to meet them and then they'll have the chemistry review. The app also allows people to put notes on there as well. But I've said to people to keep it to high level actions as opposed to the detail of the conversation. And they can keep that as a record on the app as well.

and why the app is so brilliant because again if you're looking at our people on the beat they haven't got time um to be writing emails they haven't got time um to write to me and wait for me to match someone they need to be they've got a phone they can go on the app and say oh I like that person do a quick summary send it off it's just a way it's just a way forward really in coaching and mentoring So, yes, that's why I've introduced that into the organisation.

I think it's a fantastic idea. I really do. I mean, obviously, a lot of organisations have maybe a website or intranet where coaches can put their profiles up and the client can choose. But that's a whole additional step. I mean, I think it sounds absolutely fab, as you say, particularly if a lot of your people are on the beat or out and about. Was it incredibly expensive to develop, Sandra?

Well, luckily, we have someone in-house that can develop apps. Wow. So basically, I worked with a really great guy that did the customer journey, old style. using the old system, into the customer journey using an app. And for me, just going through the process of developing this has been a real education for me because I realised as well that the app appeals to, it's multi-generational.

So you don't have to think too hard to get a coach or a mentor. You can just go and select someone. And most people are used to using apps now. So, yeah, and most people have, and all our people have mobile phones, so that makes sense. Whereas if it's on the PC, that means the person has to take their laptop out. They might not have time to go into the system.

But I have time to go onto our internet site. But this way, you're literally carrying the information in your hands. And I just think it's just more accessible. And it's just easier for people to use generally. Yeah. And behind the app. And what I want from that is management information in terms of how many people, who are the sorts of people accessing our coaching? Where are they located?

How many women, you know, I've got it broken down into the various categories as well. So the second phase of that will be that I'll have that management information at a touch of a button as opposed to, you know, counting it myself.

Fantastic. Well, I mean, good for you. I think it sounds absolutely brilliant. It sounds as if BTP, if they were in the money game, could sell that on to all sorts of organisations, couldn't they? Well, the IP belongs. Anyway, I think that sounds utterly wonderful. Thank you. I think we're drawing to a close now, but we tend to take a moment at the end to highlight... what struck us in particular from all the interesting material you've been telling us about. What stood out for you, Jeremy?

Well, I think it's pretty obvious that the phrase wraparound care stood out for me because I think that is a very interesting way of thinking about supervision and the idea that supervision is equally important to mentors. totally agree with too so i think that's good and some organizations don't have that same attitude so i think that's a great thing to highlight uh and the other one that

stood out for me was the diversity issue. I'm coaching at about five different organizations at the moment, and there's hardly any diversity amongst either coaches or coaches. And Sandra, you said that there was some suspicion about coaching amongst some cultural corners. I think we need to explore that a lot more, understand what it is. What are the barriers to some cultural identities not stepping forward for coaching? What is it about us as coaches?

about coaching as a process that they find off-putting or difficult to engage with um but it's certainly the case it would be great to explore that more in another podcast I was going to add Jeremy to that one but I've been in coaching 13 years now and been to various conferences and so forth. And sometimes I've been the only person of colour there. That's happened. And I think there's something about coaching was traditionally...

for executives, people at the higher rankings within the organisations. If you actually think back to historically where coaching sort of started, where people at very senior levels were paying lots of money to be coached. And in the senior rankings years ago, there wasn't much diversity. So if you don't see yourself being coached by anyone, you know, if you don't see yourself there, then you think maybe it's not for you. I'm just giving a perspective. Absolutely.

And I'm talking, when I say diversity, I'm talking about diversity in its truest sense. You know, neurodiversity, disabled. I haven't seen, I've not met a disabled coach. And I have now that I'm in BTP because I coach someone that has that. But again, you know, if you don't see anyone that looks or sounds like you'd be even being coached, then you think it's not for you. Yes. Well, I completely agree about the things that...

Jeremy's picked out I mean I'd certainly picked out around the importance of supervising mentors as well as coaches and you know I feel you're very much ahead of the head of the game there Sandra because

In my experience, most organisations do not provide supervision for their mentors. And as you say, it's equally important, but I do think it's still pretty rare. And the whole piece about the culture... being don't ask for help now i mean there must be a number of organizations out there where that's part of their culture and so something about you know how one positions supervision as as development rather than

help. I think, I mean, your wraparound care is one approach sounds brilliant, but I think probably, you know, a bit more thought needs to go into how one does position supervision so that it's... popular and people understand what they're going to get for it. I certainly broke down the coaching with neurodiversity and other aspects of diversity. And then the cherry on the cake for me was the app.

which I thought was absolutely I mean good luck I mean I know you're still developing it but I'm sure this wizzo guy of yours is going to come up with we'll solve whatever problems you've got at the moment and it sounds It really does sound like the way forward. I think to be frank, I think when you start going into technology and adding that to your coaching, I think it's always going to be in development.

and that's what it encourages you to do how far can you go with this what else could you do for this because eventually in my mind I'd love it so that all coaches and mentors have everything they need on the app including training I'd love that, you know, still have the secret vehicle. I think that's really, really important. But they can access all sorts of things on the app. And I think there will come a time when they will be able to do that.

Well, thank you. Sadly, we must draw this to a close. We found it absolutely fascinating, Sandra. Thank you. Thank you very much indeed, Sandra. I've certainly learned a lot today and I'm sure everyone listening. will also have learned a great deal. I think there's almost a case study here for you, Catherine, to write about one specific internal coaching.

arrangement because there's so much so much going on here isn't there in in btp that it's it's a great a great example of how to bring all this together the coaching the supervision the coaching and the mentoring I think it sounds really good. So I congratulate you, Sandra, on pulling all that together. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast from the EMCC UK. Together, our aim is to promote good practice and the expectation of good practice in coaching, mentoring and supervision.

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