S13 E14: 16th November 2025 - BORTHBALL ARRIVES!

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Hello and welcome to this. It is the Egg Chasers Rugby Podcast, the podcast about rugby that doesn't take itself or the game too seriously. I'm JB, here in the Rugby Dungeon with Phil. Hello, JB. Hello. With the multi-born entrepreneur, Tim Cocker. Stop it. Stop it. The barn thing's right. No, it's fine. I don't mind. I'm an entrepreneur.

Yeah, the entrepreneur, you're correct. Taking risks, bringing rugby to the world. You are correct on all counts. But the barn thing's got to the point where my planning advisor for the barns... Yeah. Husband is a big rugby man. Oh, yeah. And so Alison, the planning advisor, who helped me get planning permission on both barns. Both barns! Yes, that's what you get from raw planning. Yeah. They're really, really good. I would recommend. But her husband listens and is like...

put two and two together. Oh, that's Barnes! Oh, it's... Tim! Exactly. So, Tim 2 Barnes here, reporting for duty. Excellent. Excellent. And not only that, let's do some housekeeping immediately, because... There's a very exciting Pro de Deux game on this evening. We're their debutants of Pro de Deux. Yeah, I mean, I've had to sack off that World Cup winner and Perpignan defence coach, former Bordeaux, Breve.

coach as well and cast I've had to sack him off because he doesn't he doesn't know enough about French rugby so Joe Worsley's out and JB's in absolutely from my recollection I don't think Joe Worsley has won a single level 7 league 100%. What's he got to say about low-level rugby? Nothing. Well, his team, his club is so bad, they're not even in the league structure. That's awful. That's awful. Yeah. It's dreadful, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

So yes, so, well, by the time this podcast is out, the game will have already happened, but it's a good one. Joe Worsley may join us during the second half, but yeah, you are my wingman for the match tonight. Sorry, thank you for that. Excellent. Well... FRUK Rugby for that. For French rugby, live games and all sorts of other content, Egg Chasers Rugby on YouTube is where you'll find me. You'll find JB at Beardmore and Co. Independent Financial Advisors. Making sure you're...

Your wealth lasts many generations into the future. Absolutely. All guaranteed. No downsides. No downsides. No small print here. And we might get a little update on Phil's marathon prep come the end of the pod. Or a book recommendation or something else in between. Someone did actually write to us saying they loved the coffee chat last week and maybe give some recommendations on running shoes.

I'll happily talk about that right at the end. We should have a... We could do a little Patreon. One thing we could do on Patreon is just have Phil as a witch magazine. Just pick a topic. You can trust Phil. He will give you the right opinion. So we gave the, I think it was a good opinion on coffee machines, trainers. Yeah. Yes. And also we might need to do a Patreon because I've got a kind of semi-secret video.

Do you want to go over? Let's guarantee a Patreon semi-secret video. That sounds like you've started OnlyFans. There is weirdly reference to sex in it. Weirdly, there is reference to sex. A semi-secret video with reference to sex. Some weird reference to sex. Patriot. Hormones, loads of hormones in it. Like, just bizarre. It's a bizarre, bizarre... clip. I can't wait. Speed through the pod and get to Patreon. And it is genuinely 100% about rugby.

Wow. It is a rugby thing. It's fascinating. JB, so in my radio, I've been on the radio for over 15 years. Do I spend that long? God, maybe even more than that. It's longer than that. Definitely longer than that. Might be getting on for 20 years. And, like, teasing is an art form. Like, making someone listen for just a bit longer by giving them a bit of sausage sizzling. Trimming the water.

The sizzle you just gave there was incredible. There's a job in broadcasting for you. Which is another reason you're on FRUK tonight. Right, so yeah, loads to talk about. Thank you for getting in touch. I'll try and pepper the pod with some emails. We've had a bunch.

contacttechchasers at gmail.com some very funny ones as well um so have we got some great listeners haven't we when you look at our emails and stuff we have some we have some really good genuinely loads this weekend loads this weekend yeah um

JB and I are both at Twickenham. Shall we start there? It's the biggest game. I think this is a monumental game. I think this is like an earth-shattering game for rugby. I can't stress how much I think this is. Probably changed the face of rugby for a long, long time. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. No, completely, completely serious. Completely serious. Because I have heard some people from other countries, I've seen comments and stuff like,

taking the piss out of how England's media has gone really big on England beating New Zealand. Yeah, yeah. And I'll get into reasons why I think this is so important. I'll put it in context, though. Do you know how many times England have beaten New Zealand in the history of the sport?

Well, I can think of about four or five times off the top of my head, so I don't know. So it was referenced that that was only the fifth time that England have beaten New Zealand at Twickenham in 100 years. They've beaten twice in New Zealand, back to back. In about 2000. I remember that well. 2002, 2003. Beat them in the World Cup semi-final five years, six years ago now. So I think it goes back 120 years, this fixture. Yeah. England have won nine times.

in the history of the fixture. You can't count. You've still got a digit free on two hands to count the number of England wins ever. The first win at Twickenham since 2012. The first win of any kind since 2019. Wow. It is big. Yeah. Let's start with this. How did you watch the game? I was in the media gantry at Twickenham. Very nice. Phil? I was... I did a two-hour...

Zwift ride on my static bike watching, which actually meant... Tell me you're Phil Largan without saying you're Phil Largan. Which actually meant I was incredibly focused on the game. I was trying to black out everything. I just focused solely on the game, which I loved. So live rugby is not necessarily very compatible with watching rugby.

with getting all the detail, picking up where the TMO came in. That's so true. But thankfully, I got some great seats. So thank you, George. So I went out with a friend of mine, George, went for some lunch first. Exceptional French restaurant. Exceptional. Then nipped over to HQ a few beers later. Had some brilliant seats. And then proceeded to watch it. And there's two ways to watch a game, isn't there? There's like watching it. with a few beers, not really caring, kind of like the way...

Sort of the way we watched the England-France game. I don't remember much of that because there's lots of chit-chats. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that is even a level above you watching some of the World Cup games where you were sleeping in your chair and being smashed from the night before. And the game.

drinking strong zeros. And the other way to watch it is constantly chatting about the game because the person next to you is an equal rugby nose to you. So actually I've got to turn out this game. And the seats were just perfect to watch everything. It kind of depends. So I was in the latter camp, even though I had a few beers. Let me tell you how I think the game was going to go. My prediction prior to the game was I wasn't going to pick a winner, but I thought...

and maybe this will be the way we look at things in the future, the back row gave it away a bit, which is they were just all sevens. You just had basically seven guys who were very dynamic, very fit.

And it looked to me like they wanted to kick the ball. And should they not regather, they want to be able to defend. That's how I read that selection. The England selection you're specifically speaking about. Yes. And then I thought, if I look at New Zealand, they don't really make mistakes. So they'll get the ball and they'll hoop it.

high and then they'll compete and they'll carry on doing that and the loser will be the team that decides to play the ball too early and if they take risks in their own half or on the halfway One of those two teams will get punished and they'll probably be three points here, three points there. That's how I saw it going. Would anyone disagree? I would add one extra element to that, which is New Zealand have a very explosive back row.

And back line. And actually they're capable of breaking the line and then they have the skills to offload. So I thought there would be more play from New Zealand through offloads in contact. to blow the game wide open. Yeah, I thought, if New Zealand got the ball and decided to play, I thought they would play, I thought they'd make it an unfair fight.

They would take the ball into contact on their terms. They would play in exactly the way that you say, Tim. And if they could do that, they would win. But ultimately, the risk would be if they couldn't do that, England would turn them over. That's kind of how I saw it going. That was only the proviso that England didn't win the ball back.

England did start to win the ball back. So here's my question to you two boys about this game. Have England discovered a way to win high-level international matches without heavy traffic carrying? Maybe. Maybe. I didn't think there wasn't heavy traffic carrying. In fact, Benno was magnificent at that. Benno was amazing. Well, he carried a lot.

Right, but did he make loads of yards? Yeah, he did. He did. He got over the gain line. So England's ball was quite quick. He made over 100 yards with ball in hand, 100 metres with ball in hand, and he... What he didn't do when he was doing the heavy traffic carrying, he rarely converted that into full line breaks, but he was always bending the line. I was really impressed with his work rate and his explosiveness.

To bend the line. And you noticed him when he wasn't on the field as well. Yes. I think that's why Cunningham himself didn't come on. Because they didn't need to chase the game. They didn't need to break... break it wide open with the carries and they were just able to Ben Earl had a 10 minute rest as well yeah with about 15 minutes to go 2 metres here 3 metres there 2 metres there

But there's no Will Skelton. There's no Tom Willis. There's no kind of... Dwayne Vermaul. Dwayne Vermaul. You name what you... King Louis. You think about what you need now in international rugby. If we were looking at this game without knowing what the teams were, we'd all say, well, who's going to...

get over the game line. You need to get over the game line. I mean, that game line dominance has been so important for, say, France, the good France teams, the good South African teams in particular. They love getting over the game line. It strikes me that England have just worked out our way. to circumvent it. That's exactly what they did. And I think the strategy was spot on. The execution of the strategy was spot on. Sticking to it when they were, what?

Two tries down? I'd actually say it was spot on except for the first 10 minutes when they did everything right except finish. Yeah. But they could have as well. That's the thing. That's one of the stories for me. It's England could have...

And obviously, if they'd have scored at the start, it would have changed the whole game. So, you know, it's sliding door stuff. But they left chances out there is the bottom line. Several. Half an hour into the game, I was already, when England were 12-0 down, and at that point... England have blown three red 22 entries and got no points from them. There was the held up over the line. There was this underhill offload and there was down the left-hand side, the Faye were both. So...

Line break. So, zero points from three entries. A line out that was completely not functioning. Nope. And defensively, the two New Zealand tries were so easy just with... a couple of wide passes. So I was getting ready for the narrative on the pod and the narrative in the press and for everyone to be incredibly negative about England and all those points. And actually...

England's ability to turn the game around, part of it came from a change in strategy where... Enforced. Well, there's enforced change in strategy with Stuart going off and Smith on. So play a little bit more. England looked so much better then. Yeah.

play a little bit more kick a little bit less of the high stuff kick to compete stuff but also I thought George Ford was magnificent pivoting from well we're going to get the seven points to no as soon as we get anywhere near the 22 we're going to take the drop goals which he did amazingly towards the end of that first half to get them back into it and then from that point England

improved everything the scrum got better uh the abilities to be clinical the the try the it was the underhill try at the start of the second half where they get into the 22 immediately converted to Maybe actually Alex Mitchell scored just before that, but they basically got over the line twice. And defensively, they started shutting down New Zealand. Yeah, and you can make a list of things which, over the last couple of years, England have not been great at. And you just... Yeah.

Actually, finishing chances in the 22. They didn't in the first bit, but for the most part... But they did afterwards, yeah. Discipline was really good. Yes. For the most part. Ben Hill got the yellow card. Didn't they get much back? Did Toji open his mouth towards the end? No, no, that was, the backs were given offside, a line out, and so New Zealand kicked it to touch.

but they hadn't kicked it from where the England players were offside. They kicked it from where the line-out was. So it was just the referee went, oh, no, no. Actually, you should have kicked it from here. I think that's all that happened there. So discipline was really good. Finishing actually was good.

I can't remember. Scrum. I'm so glad you mentioned that. Joe Hayes and Finn Baxter might be one of the stories of England. They were solid, weren't they? And then they got better. Yeah. England won one against the head. It was actually remarkable because in that period where you're like... Right, we've got to get on the bench. We've got to get on Will Stewart and Ellis Gendrish. LCD, I think, was already on at this point, but...

You're like, we need two lines off. These boys are going to be tired. And they had two or three back-to-back scrums, won one or two penalties from them. I thought they were absolutely brilliant. Yeah, and actually the lovely moment was when the coaches... the forwards were all about to come on, and just before England scored the Fraser Dingwall try, they actually went, nope, and I think it was over the, I can't remember.

whether it was over at the Tannoy or not, but whatever the case, they went, no, no, no, you're not coming on yet. And they let that pack have one more go, set it up perfectly. And that was the other thing, which has been one of the features of England, has been really, really good players.

But ever so slightly square pegs in round holes with Olly Lawrence having to be a 12 or Henry Slade having to be a 12. Actually, you had an out-and-out 12 and an out-and-out 13 and it just... It worked. It worked. People were talking about Dingler on the way in. I'm like, oh, is he good enough? I don't know exactly the point you made.

Pick the best team. And he might not be the best player, but I think he does create the best team. Yeah, he might not be the best athlete. You could put... I know Freeman was injured, but if you had Push Lawrence inside and had Freeman at 13... Those are two better athletes, but this is a much better combination than having those two better athletes. Ollie Lawrence is a brilliant athlete, so you'd have him in your team, but he is a slightly square peg in a slightly round hole.

when he's at 12. Yes, it's still effective, but not to the same degree. His handling isn't as good, his kicking isn't as good, he's not as used to defending there. And I love that, that try was so simple, but so good. They shape for them all, straight off the top. Oh, it was lovely.

That pass to Lawrence, who was inside centre. Yes. They'd shifted him round. Lawrence was inside centre, running hard. New Zealand think, oh, I know what's happening here. It's only Lawrence at 12. Two men jamming. They all suck into him. Little pop, straight through a hole.

Dingers. And that was one of the cool moments was Lee Blackett and Byron McGuigan celebrating. Yes. Giving the fist pumps. If you just look at that, I think the whole performance was remarkable. I think they came up with just the perfect strategy.

And I expect to see more of this. I hope that we do. I'm going to temper it because I think the way I described it as England are a year ahead of New Zealand in terms of a rebuild. All the things that people were saying about England a year ago when they lost to New Zealand. are what people are saying about New Zealand right now. There are loads of New Zealanders saying Robertson out, just the same way as a year ago.

How many England fans are just doing that Homer Simpson reversing into a hedge before coming back out again? No, no, no. I never said Borthwick out and I never said George Ford shouldn't play for England again. So many of them did. And back in your box. I do think it's actually more fundamental than that. I think they have literally...

In fact, did you say Borthwick out a year ago? No, I'd never say that. I've always, always been a Borthwick fan. I think we have all been always Borthwick. So I will just mention an email. here an email that we actually got about three weeks ago before the autumn international started from jack bullen uh and this says hi guys love the pod blah you guys seem to really rate borthwick which i can't seem to understand

I wanted to send this out before the Autumn Internationals, so it didn't look like I'm jumping on the bang wagon if results go against us. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on the below. So this is... You know how sometimes, JB, you say... If Tim in particular, or me, we say England, the point you've just made, Tim, England fans being negative about X, negative about Y. This is a great example of an England fan being negative about Borthwick pre-Autumn Internationals.

So, the points he makes are, Borthwick's main selling point when he got the job was he was going to bring absolute clarity to the England team. Since he's taken over, the exact opposite seems to have happened. What is his game plan? What type of back row is he looking for? Does he want a playmaker at fullback or a strike runner? What is he looking out of a centre partnership? I'd be interested to know if Jack still has those questions. Because what is his game plan?

I think we know. And I think his game plan can switch around depending on the conditions and depending on the game. But I think we know what type of back row is he looking for. I wouldn't say this was originally the plan for the type of back row he would want. Maybe not with Tom Willis, but if Tom Willis was available, I'm certain he would have been involved. I'm not sure anymore.

Maybe you would have, but maybe they wouldn't have won this game. Yeah, maybe they would have lost. Does he want a playmaker, a fullback or a strikerunner? Well, kind of both depend on the situation. In this, he wanted a strikerunner aerial. Yeah. And then it switched round. So he does go on to make some other points. So he treated players dismally. Ben Spencer goes from first choice at the beginning of last autumn within two games to dropped out of the entire...

and then out of the Six Nations and now back, which I think is a fair point. Same for Marcus Smith, who was England's only bright spot last year, done nothing wrong, has to play out of position. And Finn Smith can feel aggrieved having lost the 10 jersey to Ford when he was away on the Lions tour despite every other Northampton player starting. There is some confusion in all that, isn't there? I have to...

Acknowledge Jack's points. It does sound confused when you read it like that. So there's some... Yeah. There's some changes in selection. That doesn't necessarily mean confusion, though. Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, just let's go back to Borthwick's game plan. Yes. I'm not sure I can speak for his game plan, but I can certainly speak for his philosophy, because we know it. And anyone who's ever spoke to anyone in Leicester Tigers or in the England camp also knows it, which is...

he wants to produce pressure. And he doesn't really mind where that comes from. He's very analytical. So when he was at Leicester Tigers, the pressure was produced mostly by kicking in territory. Lots of people can be, you can be analytical in lots of different ways. He's analytical in a very data-driven way. Yes.

As I understand it. As we look at the Leicester Tigers teams, the team that won the Premiership, and they were phenomenal with line-outs. Both winning them, and then striking moves off them, because that's where he decided that he wanted to spend his time. And he's told me directly the things he cares about is set piece, defence and breakdown.

I don't think any of that's really changed. I mean, the line-out could be better. Well, the line-out, that is a bit of a trade-off, isn't it? Because you go for the back row composition the way it did, and you know... If Courtney Laws were still in the team, he would have sorted that. But also, some of the calls were garbage. Just throwing to the front. I mean, you just can't do it. Yeah, it looked better when they went...

when they went to the back. Because you've got more movement, you need to be more precise at the front. Everyone thinks the front ball is easy. It is not. It is really hard. So, yeah, some of the calls are trash, but maybe if they, you know, whatever. So, we know...

what his philosophy is, but how does he get there? And I think this, you know, the high ball kicking game has allowed him to generate pressure in a way that otherwise you'd probably do it by bending the line, you know, big ball carriers, whatever it may, whatever it may be. And that's why I love this performance so much. because it is obviously really well thought out, strategised, and they stuck to it. I mean, how easy would it be if you had...

Characters in your team that hadn't bought into Borthoek's plan say, do you know what, boss? It's not working. We're 10 minutes in. We're going to play this way. We're going to do something different. They all bought into it and they stuck to it even when they were 12 points down. So whatever he's doing, he's got massive buy-in. Oh, yeah. You...

Every time you watch or listen to the team talking, you can tell they're on the same page. There was interviews with George Ford this week. I don't know if you saw any, and I think Charlie Morgan did a piece on it. You mean the guy that should never have played for England again a year ago? Yes. Just checking, we're talking about the right player, George Ford. That George Ford, who you and I picked for the Lions as well. We did.

Although maybe that would have been the worst thing for him because he got the chance to captain England in Argentina. Anyway, anyway, the point that he was making in midweek and that Charlie Morgan picked up on was... It's very easy for him to say because he's wearing the 10 jersey, but the importance of the whole 36 going into the, so not just the 15, not just the 23, but actually, and like we saw Noah Kalori going into the squad basically to play Sueli.

in the same way that there was the Suntory Sungolias scrum half, was with the England squad in 2019, basically to copy Aaron Smith. So it is the... George Ford made this point very well. It's incumbent on every single person in the 36 plus then everyone around them. And when they're talking like that, you can just see that... Everyone's on the same page. Everyone buys into the team. And that's massive, isn't it? You know that from...

Just your own anecdotal examples of playing in teams that are motivated and together. Or the opposite. Or the opposite being true. It's massive and rugby, it magnifies those tiny little 1% here and there are magnified. And I think that might be...

The story of England, it could be the story of New Zealand. It's probably the story of Australia with a coach that's about to be leaving. I don't know. I don't know the ins and outs, but I think you can see when teams are... completely bought in together and and I do think as well and to tie that in with South Africa who clearly have quite a lot of that going on and that whole squad mentality there is an element where I look at it and go

Steve Borthwick has, understandably, why not use best practice? We're going to finish with our best players on the pitch. Exactly. Exactly. It's worked for them. The only thing I'd say about that, the only thing I'd say is I had questions if the starters were good enough. Yeah. I really did. I think I did. I did. But I don't know. Joe Hayes is seriously improved. So... Finn Baxter I don't I said I do not think he is a good enough international player I said in fact I said last week

he will not bend the line for you. Turns out they didn't need him to, so why do we care? His footwork at the game line's really good. Yeah, but that's what England are. They've got loads of footwork. They've got loads of weak shoulder carriers, which is great. Well, that's what they've got.

And so, you know, my criticism still stands. He's not good enough to do the job. Do you know what I noticed? That he was never needed to do. Yeah, that he's not been asked to do. Do you know what I noticed? Yeah, and to your point about that, do you know what I noticed? That England didn't do a lot of, except for there was maybe once when they were desperately, like, quickly trying to get the ball to the edge.

there was very few forward pods with the ball out the back to the fly half. Talking about forward pods, yeah, just talking about that second. I spent the first maybe 10, 15 minutes really watching New Zealand to try and work out what their shape was.

I honestly could not identify anything. Yeah, it was weird. The amount of times there was a 10 and a 12 or a 10 and a 13 in the backfield and Will Jordan was, I found it odd. I was trying to get my head around it as well. And forwards as well. They were attacking. And every forward was in one half of the field. I was like, when is the last time? I don't think I've ever seen that. I've not seen that for a long time.

I thought, well, they're going to fan out soon. We're going to have some edge forwards here or some pods or something. Cody Taylor did get himself out on the edge quite a bit, but no, I know exactly what you mean. Not for the first 20. It might have developed because I switched off after that. I was watching other things. So I thought, I'm just going to watch her shape and observe.

how the All Blacks spread the field. And they didn't. They still scored two tries, by the way. But yeah, I thought it was weird. I was always thinking, have they got different shapes for different parts of the field?

Rather than just a universal shape, and that wouldn't surprise me. That would not surprise me at all. But then it's definitely harder to pick up the signal in that. I will just mention another email, very briefly, because we were mentioning the... starting front row from England. Edmund Levin messaged us on the 18th of October. Hello, Edmund. And I think at that time we were talking about English tight heads because he said, and I quote from a month ago,

Never mention tight head proper without putting Joe Hayes front and centre. He is the best English tight head. Wow. And he reiterated this to us. I wrote this a month ago when you mentioned tight heads for England on the pod without mentioning Joe Hayes. I like this. I like the historic looking back, even just a month. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback stuff, isn't it? It is. That's two. Edmund, who was spot on a month ago, and Jack, who...

Maybe he would say he was wrong a month ago. Maybe he...

Proven to be right longer term. There are some grassroots podcasters that went in hard on Steve Borthwick and I'm very interested to hear. Andy Goode over the last couple of years. Andy Goode over the last couple of years. Yeah, for a long time. Let's just have a listen to what... he says um let's just have a listen to how good how gushing he is about england yeah and whether he says whether he says i'm sorry steve i'm completely wrong let me just stick up for andy good a second right um

I would say he's broadly speaking correct, right? If you kind of like... He's a good bloke, I like him. But if you consider England progressing in the same way they want to be South Africa or they want to be Australia or... New Zealand, if you want to play conventional rugby like Ireland, then he's probably right, isn't he? Because they weren't producing that. So I don't know if this new strategy is going to continue game after game after game, but I don't think England were a great...

But this goes, what you're saying is correct, but it goes into, you've used that phrase, the footballification of rugby, when people start going, they don't... recognise the steps and the time that it takes to go from A to B, and that there is a path and it won't always be linear and there will be dips, but overall the trend is upward. And I think what we've done quite well is recognise...

The trend, or certainly Phil and I have done well in the case of Steve Borthwick. I think all of us. No, no, no. Yeah, no, sorry. You're right. You're quite right. You're quite right. We've recognised the trend and the age profile of the team, the potential of the team. We can see what...

they were getting at. We were actually saying the 2023 World Cup was a really good effort when England fans were booing. I'm going to say, I was always in front of Steve Borthwick. I was not really sold on the progression of this team until yesterday. which I think was masterful. I was not sold on where it was going, how it looked. That email from... Is it Peter? Jack. Jack, sorry. From a month ago. Yeah, there was a lot of confusion. But if this is what they were building to...

No wonder it's confused. They've got to back it up. Yeah, they do have to do more. So they're now 10 wins on the bounce. Hopefully 11 after... Two wins against Argentina amongst that, one against New Zealand, one against France. So they've beaten some good teams. Half of the matches are against decent teams. So who's up next? Argentina again. Which would be interesting because they are a random bunch of players who do...

They're incredible things with ball in hand. They're a legit team. And if you want to test your kicking game and giving, you know, guys the ball back, well, this is a... Good luck. Yeah. Here we go, boys. Strap in. f around and find out if that is your approach so a couple of the things i wanted to mention on this and there is actually another email that i won't read out but um I'll just reference. So from John Gillespie, who says, as always, gentle of the pod, blah. The point he's making is...

Now that we've done all of our good work on getting everyone on side regarding tackling and embracing contact and now Ugo's signed up to that message. Good old Ugo. He's always on board. The job is done. The next threat or the next thing is the look at me TMO, which I do have a problem with the TMO in this game. And I don't know if you picked it up.

In stadium. There's one thing which I thought he might have picked up on. I couldn't hear it in stadium. Did he insert himself for non-foul play reasons? He did a couple of times. So there was the Cody Taylor yellow card. Quite a harsh yellow card, I felt. I mean, actually, it's okay if it's been spotted, but that was the very first penalty New Zealand gave away in the whole game. Really? Yeah. That's not a yellow card, then, is it? And...

The ref hadn't spotted it. The ref had given a knock-on against England, and he said... Who did he have done? Remind me. So it was a tackle on Marcus Smith. As they went to floor, he just pushes... Just taps the ball out of his hands. Yeah. As they're hitting the deck. And it wasn't... in the 22 it wasn't it wasn't a line break yeah so I my view is if the ref and because it was near the right hand England's right hand touchline there's an assistant referee there

If neither of them see it in real time, it is not a try-scoring opportunity. It's not serious foul play. The TMO should not be piping up in that instance. Completely agreed. So you've got that one. Even if he does pipe up... it shouldn't have been a yellow card. To me. I agree. If you do that in the 22, there's a line break and there's a two-man overlap on the right-hand side, that's a yellow card. Like the...

What's his name? South African number eight who used to play at Leicester this week against Italy. Espevisa. No, who's played this week. Sorry, Leicester, number eight. Yeah, he plays Flanker. Van Starden. Oh, Michael Van Starden, yeah. So, Van Starden got a yellow card for Italian line break. He goes straight off his feet, straight over the top of the ball. Yeah, that was a total cynical yellow. 100%. It's a yellow card.

This was not a yellow card, in my opinion. I agree. But it was a penalty, but it wasn't spotted, so the TMO should just pipe down. Leave it. Similar to... Well, the reverse of that was... The Alex Coles held up over the line. Ethan DeGroote. Never got onside. 100%. I couldn't see that. Yeah, so you wouldn't pick this up in the stadium. The New Zealand players never got back onside before they tackled Alex Coles. They grabbed him from an offside position. Yeah, the group, and yet the...

That is a try scoring. It's arguably single. That could be a yellow card and potentially even a penalty try. There's other players around there, but... Why is he interjecting on one but not the other? And I would rather than him interjecting on Alex Coles, I'd rather he hadn't interjected on Cody Taylor. Just let the boys play. And then...

The other frustration in this game was the George Ford try, which I thought was absolute nonsense. I don't know if you would have picked this up. This is the England line-out. right-hand side with about 20 minutes to go. They hit Roebuck up off it. Roebuck half-break offloads to Ben Earle. Ben Earle gets kind of tackled by Bowden Barrett, but it's not really... Bowden Barrett rips the ball.

Oh, yeah. What happened with that? Because I couldn't see. This is one of the cases I was in the stadium. I was like, that is a try. What is wrong with that? That's a try. So it was the weirdest thing. So in my mind... Oh, was that where they went back to offside at the line-out? Well...

So what happened was... The referee asked for a check on the knock-on. They checked on the knock-on. He said, it's a try. Track-on-field decision is a try because we've got good ground in. But I want to check the... Was it a knock-on? Fair enough. I can see why you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, I definitely wanted to. In real time, I didn't know. Watching it slow motion, I thought, Bowdoin Barrett, clear rip.

regardless of whether it's a rip, it goes backwards from Ben Earl. It goes towards England. It goes towards England, yeah, but it goes backwards from Ben Earl. Ben Earl, yeah. You could argue it's a knock-on for Bode Barrett, but it's not because it's a rip. So it's just play on. but Piardi gives it as a knock-on by England, but then the TMO interjects and says, oh, what...

He gave it as a knock-on. He gave it as a knock-on. So had the TMO not given the penalty for offside, it would have been a knock-on. It would have been a knock-on. Oh my God. The TMO interjection saved Piardi from embarrassment there. So the TMO... interjection they never actually then replayed that offside so Piardi just takes his word there's something that wasn't spotted by him and the touch judges that didn't impact play

It was just, the whole thing was weird. And like, if it really was an offside and it had an impact on Roebuck going forward, then... millions of families will pack their bags, load up the car, and head off for a family vacation. But not every trip is going to be somewhere fun. The American Red Cross responds to about 7,000 emergencies during the holiday season alone.

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As a fan watching and listening. So you guys would have been confused because you're not listening. I was like, that's a try all day long. I was confused because I was listening. I was like, how do you get here, guys? Wow. To dovetail briefly... The TMO, the bunker, it's all a complete mess. The Italy, South Africa red card for Franco Mostert. I thought it wasn't a red card at all. I would have been happy with play on. Yeah, so...

So I actually think on that one, to me, it's materially different to the lewd one from last week. I think we all concluded, whether you're bent at the waist or not, if you chicken wing or if you don't make an attempt to wrap the arm that you're tackling with... and you hit someone in the head, that's on you. This, I think, there is a drop of height from Garbisi who's carrying the ball. Most is attempting to wrap...

But the contact is on the chest and then there's a whiplash effect that brings his head forward. That for me is play on. One of the phrases I would get rid of immediately is anyone saying as if it's a negative. Leading with the shoulder. What other part of your body do you lead with? You always initiate contact with the shoulder and you never put your arms out in front of you when you make a tackle. Your arm comes afterwards. You've got to be wrapping. So again, I don't think it was...

it was head contact. I think there's mitigation. Yeah, there was head contact, but after... I think it's debatable whether there was, but I see what you're saying. But that was actually very similar to the third... Japanese yellow card where the contact was through the chest and it was the whiplash effect that brought the head forward onto then the shoulder afterwards. But this is what happens. One of the points I was thinking is...

When it feels like there's different outcomes in different games, fans are very quick to say, we just want consistency. And I do get that feeling. However... rugby every single incident is very different because of the dynamic nature of it and as soon as you start saying you want everything consistent that is where you put the pressure on world rugby to come up with a flow chart tick box system which leads us to this situation where

Like, you can see Franco Mostert's done everything right. And it's just a rugby incident. It's a rugby incident. So not the games to be consistent, the referee in one game to be consistent. And then you go, oh, that's what we're playing with today. Across 80 minutes is fine. Yeah.

Eight minutes, that's it. It's for the team to figure out the ref. But, like, if you're James Dolman, anyone that's played the game and isn't just shitting them, oh, sorry, isn't just really scared about... losing their job as a referee by their assessor telling them off you would look at that incident and go accidents happen sometimes and look he's done everything right so we're just gonna play on

Or at the very most, I'm going to give a yellow card and we'll take the time in the bunker. A straight red for that is unbelievable. Yeah, I even think even with the flow chart, you can get to that being... a not even a penalty because the contact is through the chest well because it's got this tick box the one is it's always illegal because i think he was i think he was it was always illegal in moster

He was rapping. I'm really... I do think, had the Mostert one been in the Premiership in the last 12 months, it would have been a... And Matthew Carley was spot on.

Just about fish-hating, though. And English referees are spot on on this. Let's just go back to fish-hating, because one thing is just starting to bother me a tiny bit. I read it in the paper this morning. People talk about the England win, and is this where we want the game to go?

So because of the kicks, because of the contesting in the air, is this where we want the game to go, right? And I'm hoping that the rugby authorities dug it down as some sort of exercise of changing the game so it's how they want it.

because they've been speaking for how long now about, oh, players are getting too big, it's getting too physical. Well, England literally just solved that problem this weekend. So I wonder if there's going to be this assault on the England kicking game in order to stop it, when actually all you need to do...

is just leave it and somebody will solve this for you. And I want to see what the next iteration of this is. The reason why the aerial game and box kicking has come back again after it looked like it was going away is because World Rugby brought that lore about the escort runners and made it easier for the guy...

chasing the kick to get to the ball yes that's why it's become more important it's easier to win your own ball to compete and win your own ball back trust me there is going to be an iteration of this because how far are we from the world cup two years right someone This might be effective now, maybe next year. Someone is going to come up with some sort of antidote. We saw a little hint of it in the New Zealand game. I noticed that New Zealand were...

They seem to be very strategically standing players on the England side of an aerial contest. Not to block the runners coming through, but for the tap-down. And you saw Roigard... bust away yeah and they probably should have scored from exactly that moment well it'd be something really similar teams will start dropping more numbers as soon as they start dropping more numbers a coach will go we need to pass that

and then all of a sudden you've got running rugby again, and then the numbers will come up, and then you'll have kicking rugby again. So don't change anything. Just let them play. Let them develop this. I don't understand. If, presumably... What newspaper was that? Times. Yeah, so the Times had about 17 journalists in the media room yesterday. Rugby gets such ridiculous amounts of coverage, and I'm not complaining about it, but considering how many people watch it...

International rugby is a big deal, but no, it's just, it amazed me because I was looking going, okay, there's so-and-so from the Daily Mail. Who did you see? Who's there? Oh, they were all there. Stephen Jones. Yes. Chris Foy. Yes. was, what about Owen Slott? No. Was he not? Didn't see him. He might have been there, but I didn't see him. Anyway.

All of the others were there. Anyway, Charlie Morgan was there. Oh, well, that's all the masses. That's all the masses. And one last thing about this game. Has anybody read the Flashman novels? I've not read them, but I'm aware of them. Oh, you need to read them. A, they're very, very funny. But B, the principal of Flashman is like, you know, big show-off bully, keeps on failing up, always in the right place at the right time.

And his creation goes from strength to strength to strength. Always just ends up with the right people at the right time. This is Henry Pollock. It is Henry Pollock, right? So... He just keeps on getting selected, keeps on showing up. He's so, all the bravado, all of it. He was a rock.

And New Zealand, like, off their feet. And the referee goes, penalty England, but because Henry Pollock's at the ruck. And he also was like, yeah, well done, Henry. Well done. He did nothing. Yeah, and again. Pollock nails it. The ball just happens to... bounce for the final try, the Roebuck try. The ball just happens to bounce there. He's just in the right place. Do you know what I love about Henry Pollock? Flashman. Henry Flashman. I suspect there's a little bit of me that thinks...

Him licking his lips like he did at the hacker was just maybe in the back of his mind he's thinking, the camera's going to be on me and I can be a meme here. Actually, I think he was just in the moment and just did it.

Did what he genuinely felt. But the thing I love most, which I put on a rugby WhatsApp group we were on earlier, what I love most about Henry Pollock is knowing just how much... fans of other countries secretly love him and hate themselves because they secretly love him but won't admit that they love him. And that will tear them up inside. I thought he was a really good physical player from the day that I saw him, but now...

the blonde hair and all the rest of it. I'm like, this guy is just looking his way. You know the ball is going to bounce a certain way for someone to walk it for a try. It'll be Henry Pollock getting that try. It's a little bit like Will Jordan. So many New Zealand players have had massive try tallies. by just running it in, you know, half of Julian Savio's tries. The last man on the edge and great handling and he just had to put the ball down.

when a player gets the tri-scoring record that Will Jordan gets, you just have to say there's no fluke. And if it keeps happening that Pollock's in the right place at the right time and things happen around him... I thought he was going to go the length of the field.

Did you see that? It was an outside break that he got onto. Yeah, yeah. I was like, he's going to go here and this is going to be an unbelievable England moment. I can't believe it. And the reality was probably like... proctor pulled his achilles or something like just the most lucky thing and he's away he's away he's done it again henry that was ace but that was um england did it several times the

held up over the line was one of these where turnover ball or kick receipt of ball and England very quickly spin the ball wide. So that one was, I think it was D-Mac lost it in England's 22. Ellis Genge picks it up. He passes it to Ben Earl, who passes it wide. Yeah, they're looking on transitions, aren't they? Yeah, yeah. Attack to where the players are not. And there was a number of times where I was in fan mode, just going...

Because you can see from where... Oh, they hate that in the press box. They hate it. Well, they put me well out of the way. All the journalists were huddled around halfway. I was pushed right away. You and Squidge in YouTube corner. I was down in YouTube corner. Oh, Squidge? No, I didn't.

But no, you get a great view and you can see, oh my God, it's on. If England go, it's on. And so many times you've seen England not have the bravery to have a crack. And when it was on, they were identifying and having a crack. Now, I remember what I wanted to say with the journalists. It was, how could anyone...

lucky enough to be there at Twickenham, let alone be there for free and have the lovely roast lamb, garlic mash and buttered veg that we had in the media. Tom Kerridge inspired or whatever it is. Absolutely beautiful. How anyone could have gone and had a free day out, which 17 Times journalists did, and still think that...

and think anything other than that was a great spectacle, and there's no need to talk about the style of England. It was an amazing day. Actually, I'll say, I'm not a massive fan of God Save the King, and I love Jerusalem. I... thought God Save the King sounded amazing. Did sound good. Yep, it sounded good. The noise was levels above. Talking about journalists going places.

Do you remember when we went to Monaco and the BBC isn't like 20, I know, a team of fives to record a podcast? Like, this is a joke. This is a joke. Well, you can't. No doubt they just. How can you edit? How can you splice clips together to misrepresent what people say unless you have loads of people there? Weird, isn't it? It's weird how they didn't... And what I don't get about this one is like...

They just didn't know it was wrong. It was an accident. We just didn't know it was wrong. There was no one to challenge us, so we just put these clips together randomly. That's wild, isn't it? It is wild. I put it like this. If I said, I love rugby. And then later on I said, you know, I love, sorry, Phil, you are an idiot or something. And then you're supposed to say that I love idiots. It's just not a real thing, is it? Yeah.

It's just not a real thing. That is the whole purpose, isn't it? And as soon as you've done that... You don't understand. I don't understand, do I? It's a national treasure. It's a national treasure. It shouldn't be touched. Same as us. As soon as you're caught lying or you're caught...

I guess if you're going to be dishonest, be open about you being dishonest. At least that's kind of, you know, a little bit genuine. But they tell you that they're trustworthy and that they're impartial and they're caught lying with their pants down. And they're like... oh yeah but well it's fine and demand your money under threat of going to prison yeah i hope they i hope they i really hope that they go bankrupt i i'd love them to go and i'd love donald trump to do it to them as well

I'd love that. Donald Trump doing it to him would be the greatest thing because I'd hate it so much. Maybe they hate Farage doing it to them more, but I just want it to happen. I want it to happen so badly.

That's England. That is England. I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll keep half an eye on Scotland v Argentine as we're watching. Good idea. Oh, someone's very upset on our Spotify comments. We're clowns because Scotland aren't a Tier 1 team. But sorry, boys, you're not a Tier 1 team by our new definition. You've got to have beaten every single nation at least once.

Well, it depends how we... Are we talking about this last week? Yeah, it depends how we're going to do it. There was a couple of emails and mentions saying, I was waiting for the punchline about Scotland.

Never having beaten... I was waiting for the punchline because we were saying, what would classify a tier one nation? What would be a fair way? And one way was you have to have beaten everyone else once. And of course, Scotland have never beaten the ABs. I've just done it again. Oh, someone else said the ABs. Eddie Stevens.

It was Eddie from Rugby Ranta Banter. Our friend and brother. Our friend and brother. Very good podcast. Go and check that one out. One man in a midlife crisis and just going mad on his own talking about rugby. It's an amazing listen. And he did point out that it's annoying and pointless that I say AB's, not All Blacks, because it doesn't save any time. Yeah, it's a great point. It's not as bad as www.which is...

Longer than saying World Wide Web. Of course. Of course. I don't know what anything else to say about England. Has anyone else got anything? No. No, just an awesome day at Twickenham. I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it was a good day out. It was a really good day out. I've been to some pretty... I've been to some rubbish days out at Twickenham. It was quiet.

I thought it was loud. Oh, when the game started, it suddenly went quiet. Really quiet. That was in contrast to how noisy it was before the game. I don't think I stopped my seats until midway through the anthem. Which other games did you boys see then? Australia, Ireland. Yes. Very little of Wales, Japan. I don't care about that. I saw a bit of Wales. I've caught up with it since. Yeah, I watched quite a bit of Wales, Japan.

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Workday Go gets you live fast and fits the needs of your business. Find out what Workday Go can do for you. Go with Workday Go. I mean, it's a win. For Wales, they've won two in their last 20, both of which are against Japan. Japan, who played, they had three yellow cards during the game, albeit admittedly... uh wales had josh adams sent off and the third yellow card for japan was ready yeah yeah so 20 minute red and the third yellow card for japan was in the 79th minute yeah therefore the

Time without... Equivalent. Yeah, they both spent the same amount of time without players on the pitch within a minute or two. But when Japan were down to 13, Wales looked no more likely to score a five. Wales were really quite poor. They were. And used to get out of jail free card winning this game. Japan should never have lost that match. And Japan, who had 70% territory in possession, who made over 1,000 metres with ball in hand. That's remarkable.

A thousand metres. It's amazing. Wales are starting to get my attention now because they are so bad. It's worse. Just seeing what they can do. And that is the ultimate measure of where Wales are at. The fans would... overjoyed and understandably I don't begrudge them they should enjoy it but they were full of joy sneaking past Japan whilst being

The worst team on the day. What have Japan done in the rest of the autumns? I mean, they got smashed by South Africa, didn't they? Yeah. Lost to Australia. Lost to Australia relatively narrowly. They've lost to Wales even more narrowly and they've got Georgia next week. Okay. I think there is still a chance that Japan could get 12th place. If Wales get spanked against New Zealand and South Africa, and if Japan beat Georgia, I think there is a chance. On top of that...

I think we missed... Did we miss a game? Is it Namibia, Belgium or something happened? Oh, no, there's the... Yeah, Belgium beat Namibia. And that's a big deal. So I think it's going to come down to... Belgium-Samoa. I think it's going to come down to Belgium-Samoa for the last place at the World Cup. Yeah, which...

Was it Tuesday, the last round of games? Have we ever had a World Cup without the Pacific Islander Nations? All three of them? That's a good question. I can't... Probably not, but maybe the... No, you're probably right. No, I think you're probably right.

They've given so much to the Rugby World Cup, not just as in Samoan jerseys, but in all other nations' jerseys. In English jerseys. English jerseys, yeah. Welsh jerseys. And that's Tongans more than Samoans. Who are the Samoans that played for England? Manu Tuolangi? Tongan. Oh, is he Tongan? Yeah, Tuolangi's a Tongan. No, they're not, they're Samoan. They're Samoan? Yeah, yeah, it's the Wernipolans that are Tongan. Wernipolans and Falatao. Yeah, they're Tongans. So, I've just got...

The number of appearances here, it doesn't tell me where they didn't appear, but Fiji have appeared in 10 out of 11 tournaments, Samoa 9 out of 11, and Tonga 10 out of 11 tournaments. There you go. Australia were disappointing, I felt. Yeah, really disappointing. Wheels are falling off. They're just rubbish without their big men. If they don't have all their starters. I think it's more than that, mate.

They didn't have Will Skelton. Mind you, they missed him. They didn't win the first test against the Lions. Actually, you might have a point. But even accounting for that, they were so much poorer than they were... in the Lions series and the South Africa game, even accounting for Tom Wright and Will Skelton. There was so much worse than that. Well, Tom Wright, Will Skelton... Tate McDermott. Tate McDermott. Taliana Tupo.

Hooper. They had Hooper. Yeah, played in the second round. Hooper and Iketao played. Yeah, Iketao scored. Yeah. Scored their first try. So... By next week, they'll have played... I think that may have been their 14th game of the year. There's too many international games. I love them, but it's...

For some countries, there's too many. The guy who was really disappointed for me was, how do you say his name? Dalgunu? Dalgunu. I thought he was spectacular at times earlier on in the season. Completely missing. Completely missing. Are this, the condition, sorry, I agree. The conditions didn't suit Australia and did suit Ireland's simple game plan. But that shouldn't really be an excuse. You're expected, you're a professional, you're expected to turn up...

Regardless. To the point JB made earlier about tactics, I think I was actually pleased to see Ireland going for bombs, going to the air a lot more, because they've been trying to persist with these little intricate shapes, despite the fact rugby's moved on. And it feels like, belatedly...

Andy Farrell and his coaches have gone, ah, you're right, yeah, maybe we should just do a bit more kicking. And maybe the conditions force that a little bit. Because the 27-minute hat-trick by Mack Hansen were all... Well, actually, there was one from the cross kick, but the first two were a kind of enforced, intricate little passing to work the shape. But you want to be doing that in the red zone, not around the halfway. Exactly right.

Yeah, I mean, this is actually not... It wasn't... Until about 60 minutes, this was fairly competitive. I thought, oh, Australia, it's going to score here. Make it into a contest for the last 10. Nope, not having any of it. Not interested. Gave up.

Yeah, they're ready to go home, aren't they? They're ready to end their season and go home. It's a weird dynamic, that, because this is basically what the global season would look like. It gets more and more intense throughout the season. And I just wonder, if you did go for a global season, you could end up more like... The Australians of this world, which is just knackered. Would you always play as many games as this? Don't know. Probably not.

We still haven't. On that, I thought that this week was meant to be the week we were getting this Nations Cup fixture thing, but they're still not out. It will probably be announced either in the run-up two or shortly after the World Player of the Year.

What is that next week? Celebration. It'll be straight after the last test, isn't it? There's that Wales-South Africa one at the end of the month. But that's outside the international window. So I think it'll probably be next Sunday. We'll play the year. Because, yeah, the last round of proper... And were they doing it? Monaco again? Presumably Monaco. Nice. I'm assuming the invites. Yeah, invites in the post. I haven't checked the emails properly. No, I haven't either. I'd go Monaco first.

One last hurrah. So yeah, we've discussed a bit of Wales, Japan. Japan should have won that. They really should have won that. Fair play to Wales. Ireland, Australia. South Africa, Italy. South Africa, we mentioned the red card. That was such a weird game. We mentioned the yellow card as well. Yeah, it was such a weird game. It was stop, start. It was just James Dolman just made an absolute mess of it. It was, yeah, TMO interventions again.

South Africa never got into their stride. Italy were good in the first half. Ignacio Brex is cool. Zuliani is a proper baller. Games just started in Murrayfield. Excellent. Well, let's do next week's games. And what a short podcast. What a weirdly short podcast. Good to do. We'll get a decent patron in, and then...

We can talk about a few things. This picture's going to get me in so much trouble. Fantastic. I'm in. I'm all in. I've got no idea what to expect, but I know I'm excited to hear it. Right. Don't even know if I want to do it now. Next week's games. I will just say that USA beat Romania in Bucharest. I think it's their first win. Nice.

Obviously, Romain didn't have their pick of referees. Oh, and we didn't mention France-Fiji. Oh, yeah. I've caught up with that since. Vainacolo's awesome. France do not look themselves. I mean, it's a... It's a bit of a mixed team. Great to see Charles Olivon back. He was awesome. Weird to see him wearing number four. He's been doing that a few times for too long, has he? Because what were they doing with Cameron Wocky?

He's six foot six. Yeah. He's a big lad forward. Yeah. It is only as weird as seeing Courtney Laws in the second row, I guess. But still a bit weird to me. It is weird him... not having been involved at all last week and jumping over Hugo Orodu into the starting line-up this week.

Yeah, he's former France captain, isn't he? No, I'm totally on board with that. Incredibly handsome. He is ridiculously handsome. In fact, can you off the top of your head think of a more handsome rugby player than Charles Olivon? Not an old person. Rob Carney was always very dashing. Not even close. But not close. He was 6-6, was he? He's 6-6. Yeah. He didn't jump in lineouts. I'm struggling to think of anyone. No, Charlotte one is...

My goodness me. Right, that's what they need to do. All these pretenders on Love Island. They need to get an actual rugby player in there. A real one. A real one. In proper shape. The best thing about Love Island is the gradual decreasing of the muscle size as they can't get hold of gear.

They're working out, but it just doesn't last, does it? Not having the same gains. Yeah. Where are the gains, boys? Right, next week's fixtures. Yes. So you mentioned it before, Tim. Georgia versus Japan. Yeah. That should be a good game. Should be a cool match. Then we have Romania, Uruguay, Spain, Fiji. Did you see the Spain score from this week? 25-26 England. They just snuck past Spain. That's a very good performance. I've not seen any of it, but very good result. I was expecting...

England A to win by 30 points. Joel Merkler is their tight-head prop. Can't go far wrong. Is he actually playing for Spain? He played for them in this game, yeah. Yeah, he started. Good lord. So yeah, Spain-Fiji, we have... Wales. Wales have to win in your one game your prize back-to-back games against New Zealand who need a win and South Africa. An angry New Zealand. This shouldn't be allowed to happen. This is not safe. It's not safe. It's just not.

not fair health and safety is the most important thing player welfare is the most important thing imagine that imagine that World Rugby come out we have cancelled because player welfare is the most important thing stop Already dead. It happened in Super League. What? Oh, the Super League cancelled two games, I think. Salford. Not safe. Other games. Portugal hosts Canada. Italy hosts Chile.

which would be interesting. Then we have Ireland, South Africa. It's a big one. That is, that is the, that's the biggest one. That's the premier fixture of the weekend. What time is that on Saturday? That is 20 to 6 on Saturday. I guess he's arguably giving out on the right hiding. I don't know why. I just do.

I was really... Oh, that's what we haven't really mentioned. So Ryan Baird, I was so pleased to see him playing well. He ruined Australia's line-out, which he did against New Zealand as well, but he's actually starting to throw his weight around. it's good and they need that six and he's yeah line option just as a specimen when's that burn back is he still banned no no he didn't get banned oh he's rescinded oh there you go yeah

The point that we all made was correct. Yeah. That's good. Yes. Shame it happened, but fine. Yeah, yeah. These things get corrected. And just very briefly on that.

there are lots of, and again, a loud minority can make a lot of noise, but there are some South Africa fans that genuinely think there is a conspiracy against them. Is there not? Because that... Oh, yeah. So I heard Razzie in a video this week.

in the post-match press conference saying, like, I don't know what we can do to teach our locks to go lower. Which is a fair point. Well, well. That's a fair point. Well, is it? Because... A couple of years ago when Ninab was there, they were happy and proud to show off that because Ninab is a physio and knows body mechanics, he could teach their locks to get lower.

Two years ago, they knew how to do it, and now they don't know how to do it. It's a hypocritical point. Yeah, I know what you're saying, but I think if you were being generous to him on that one, what he's saying is we have made the changes to make sure our massive locks hit. Really low. But anyway... I mean, the other side of it is, Lude wasn't sent off for not going low enough. He was sent off for a no-arms shot to the head. That's fair. The point to make is, the monster red card was wrong.

It just shouldn't be a red card. If it doesn't get rescinded, then I think some of those South African fans... I'm not going to say they have... I'm much more likely to believe in competence than conspiracy. Yes. I'm pretty sure it's a conspiracy, Tim. It should get rescinded. We'll see. We will see. There's a yellow card already in the...

Argentina. So the other games... Yeah, so Premier fixture, Ireland, South Africa. The 2A and 2B fixtures are France versus Australia, which should be good, with Luke Pearce in charge of that. So that will be very, very good in the Stade de France. And then on the Sunday, four o'clock on the Sunday, England-Argentina. Three Premier Games this week. Very cool. Yeah. And the only other one is Scotland host Tonga. A little bit of beatdown unfortunately. It will be.

So, interesting. Scotland, Argentina got a yellow card. Juan Cruz Malia, deliberate knock-on when, I think it was, when Scotland were through. And they went, it was in front of the post, so very, very kickable, and they went straight for the corner. No hesitation. Interesting. You do see... Teams do that a lot where they will always kick for the corner and try and score tries when the opposition have a man in the bin. There we go.

Let's do a Patreon. Balls out to the left. Yeah, get the Patreon on. Carl Stane. Oh, here we go. One meter out. Strap in, boys. Right. Okay, interesting. Patreon.com slash eggchases. I've actually got no idea what is happening next. Let the boys end. Let the boys end.

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