086 - Q and A Part 1

We're gonna do our best to answer as many as we can. And, uh, we're just gonna see

how it goes. Run through the list and see, and see what happens. Um, some of them will give a little bit of a, you know, a longer treatment. Others, others, it'll just be, you know, just a quick one word or, or you know, a few sentence sentences. We'll see how we go. But I'm really privileged to have the ministry support team with me. Hey guys, how are ya?

for the Southwest and Megan Gates. She's new. Um, or all, actually Josh and Di and Megan are all new in their role, but Megan is a, uh, children's ministry advisor in the Wollongong region. It's so good to have you guys how you are feeling about, um, answering these questions.

to come and then bring friends to Friday groups? Um, who wants to answer that one?

Well, in the past, so particularly if your church has a history of running them, um, celebrate those stories of people hearing the gospel. Um, and then the other thing is setting it up well to be consistent. Um, and so you actually have a consistent ministry running, um, where it's backed by a strong team that are passionate about what they're doing, um, and praying for the ministry, um, and for people to come.

And then the third is to, um, really pack the content of the ministry, like just touching on that aspect of, you know, wanting church families to come and then bring friends. Um, one of the things we did was to, uh, actually have sessions on how to share the gospel with your friends as part of, um, our Friday group at the start of the year. And then by term two, the kids were naturally sharing the gospel in the playground with their friends. And inviting them along

you kind of, you're model, you're modeling it, Megan, like you're showing them kind of how to do it.

Um, but I think, I think what you're saying is excellent sharing good news stories, that kind of thing. Um, we have an excellent example, I think at our church of one mom who lives near one of the local primary schools, which is walking distance, um, from church. Um, and.

She basically picks up a bunch of kids who may not be able to come otherwise, um, takes them, you know, walks them home and they, um, have some opportunity tea and then she walks them up in a walking bus, basically up to church. Um, and I've seen non-Christian parents, um, non-church parents, um, yeah, coming and joining in and taking responsibility for the walking bus as well and things like that.

It's been really great seeing lots of people start in kind of kids program and even move up into our youth program from that as well, so it's really cool. Yeah.

Um, a number of churches I, I can think of where, uh, parents of teenagers have been equipped and, you know, maybe once or twice or term amongst parents, they organize to go out for dinner, for example, while youth group is on. And that just helps make those connections, um, with those unbelieving families. Just helps them be missional, uh, intentionally within that youth ministry space.

How do we utilize parents better in leading, supporting kids ministry and for that matter, youth ministry, while not also taking them out of. Um, out of church services too often. Uh, and then how can we walk alongside families that aren't connected to the church, but their kids come to kids club? So that's sort of the, the non-Christian parents. Do anyone wanna offer anything on any of those ones?

Um, and really, yeah, having the relational aspect connected in, they'll help you to know what's going on in those families lives. Even down to simple things like have they just had a baby? You know, or are they moving? Can you help them move? Can you help supply meals in times of need? Um, simple ways to sort of show that connection with your leaders to the ministry itself.

But the parents of, I mean, with the kids particularly, it's always gonna be the parents that have that greatest impact on the kids getting there. Um, and so having the parents connect is key for that.

What church can offer them in a way. So we don't do it all the time, but sometimes as part of our share life season, we may do some kind of, in the early part of the season, some kind of, um, parenting based topic of a night, you know, um, digi the digital age with our youth, or you know, with, with some kind of professionals who come along who, uh, are clued up in that area who are Christians to talk about it.

And it's the kind of thing that a lot of parents at church feel much more comfortable, I think, in inviting the non-church parents too. They feel safe kind of doing that as a starting point. Um, and I think often I've seen the non-church parents go, oh, this is, this is great. These people aren't completely crazy. You know, they're offering help.

Then I think an easy way to try and get parents on board to help is to have like a holiday, keep running the kids program during the holidays and have holiday program those so that the leaders have a break. Um, but parents can step up and, you know, um, take part in, in running the programs. And it can be something that you, you know, that as the kids minister or whoever is in involved in that staff can provide program for them.

So it's not, um, you know, that's not feeling overwhelming, but I think yeah, that kind of thing is a good way to do it.

And so we don't wanna take them out. Um, if we, if we take them out, then in order for the kids to hear a talk, then that means the adults are missing out.

Like is a church, like is kids' church, church and therefore when an adult is not in the adult congregation or the Sunday congregate or whatever, whatever it is, and steps out, um, do they think of that as not being in church or is it that they're kind of, you know, in church in some other way? I mean, that's a really good question to kind of answer. I don't know if you've got thoughts on that guys.

Uh, I don't wanna diminish the importance of hearing God's word as we've just said, but actually, uh, serving in the kids' ministry or the youth ministry space or other spaces that are happening, as God's people gather, uh, that that is good and valuable. And so potentially more so than being, uh, just a passive participant.

They then try and gather the year seven parents together at different times in the year, or they find ways to support and encourage the Year seven leaders, that kind of thing. Or we've had, you know, invite your kids, your kids leader to dinner this week, you know, kind of stuff. Get to know the family, you know, those kinds of things. We've done bookmarks of leaders and, you know, here's something about your leader at the beginning of the year.

Put this on your fridge so that you're only to pray for them, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, helping by parents, knowing what's going on and how they can support the leaders, I guess. Um, and sharing the things that the leaders are doing to train and to, you know, care for. And, you know, they put in a lot of effort often, you know, to be well equipped. To look after, not look after. I can't believe I said that. To teach and love and serve, uh,

I was looking at the prices of hiring mini buses and stuff, and it was quite dear, and then who's gonna drive it? And so I just jumped on the parents' WhatsApp chat and said, you know, Hey guys, we're trying to move all these kids. Can anyone help us out? And within like 30 minutes, I had like five or six key carnivals in a row on the church car park, just waiting to go. Seven

It helps foster all the intergenerational things we want.

Uh, you know, they are keen to kind of, but just sort of, I, I guess having that relational, uh, oil in the system, um, is a really, really helpful thing for support, like, you know. How do you feel supported as a leader? Well, that's not gonna happen unless you actually have some kind of interaction, positive interaction with a parent. Um, I do wanna move us on though. We're gonna, we've, we've touched on some fairly, you know, sorry, di um,

Uh, because each group is naturally gonna lean one way by the, you know, the makeup of the people God has entrusted to our care at this particular moment in this season. And if God has laid before us, lots of evangelistic opportunities and lots of unchurched people and friends come in, in connections. Well, of course we're gonna have a more evangelistic flavor and, uh, purpose to our group.

But the hope is that they become Christians and then need discipleship, in which case our group's gonna have to have some discipleship. And if we don't have discipleship in those moments, well, we're not discipling those kids who have just met Jesus, those youth who have just met

should want to evangelize their friends and yeah, so in that sense, I think, yeah, the false dichotomy gives it away. But is is quite true that, uh, yeah, our different groups do lean different ways, but, uh, both are important and critical and it's probably harder work to do both well, you know, in your youth group. Uh, but when you work hard to do both well, you get the, the benefits of good robust ministry. And so it's worth the, the hard work to do them both well at the same time.

Um, and then at the other end of the spectrum, you kind of, I mean, people very don't very often say, well, this is only for church kids, but, um, uh, but you, you might kind of have a feeling or a vibe that it's very insular. And so trying to, trying to avoid those, those ends of the spectrum, um, might be worthwhile. Has any, anyone got anything to say about those things?

So I think it's good to be really alert to that.

And so e you know, even for, uh, yeah, the, the Sunday morning Kids ministry program that happens while church is on, if we're discipling kids in that space, we're growing them into maturity and we're equipping them age appropriately for evangelism. Same, same for youth group on a Friday night, if we are discipling young people, we are growing them in maturity and we are equipping them for evangelism. uh, uh, yeah.

And, you know, different, different groups or even different, um, different weeks of a particular youth group from week to week might lean a bit more towards one or the other, just based on the nature of the teaching. But when we look big picture, uh, yeah, we need, we need both of those things for, for robust discipleship.

More than just running a training day. The, the question asker asks specifically. Um, and there's another one, uh, a similar question. How do you recruit, retain, or train or slash train leaders? Multifaceted there, but, um, yeah, thoughts on particularly how to effectively train leaders who are all needing different things.

So the culture in the team is gonna affect what they're learning from each other too, um, whether that be intentional or

but they don't really love being upfront or vice versa. Um, and so recognizing that deficit in them themselves and their own skills, and then being able to say, for this term, I want accountability on this. This is what I wanna work on. Um, and then the team leader or whoever's overseeing that team can touch base with them during the term and encourage them that they've, you know, done a really great job at growing in that, like, recognizing that we are all different.

We are all individuals in that space.

But I've also seen it done where they keep one another accountable and so they sort of, they might have, you know, um, two leaders might keep one another accountable on a particular goal and just sort of check in with progress and that kind of thing. Um, I mean, another thing I've seen as well, like just, um, to put a bit, a bit of, you know, like the same idea Megan, which is excellent and put a little bit of structure to it as, uh, I guess additional structure to it as well. Sometimes

think of people think about having, you know, say five core competencies or how many core competencies, and then kind of going, well within this particular core competency, maybe there's, you know, three levels of, of competency there. And again, that idea of kind of like, well, I'm at level one. Well what would it take for me to move to level two? What are some things that I could kind of, and so it's the same idea of that kind of, um, walking alongside someone, um, having a goal.

But just, you know, maybe you've predetermined that there are some, um, particular competencies to kind of, um, think through. And that can happen at an, at an individual level. Maybe you'll have baseline training at a training day, but then as you start to level up and, and, and progress in different areas, um, there's sort of more options opening up.

It's addressing the different needs that you're seeing as you go. Um, yeah, I think in terms of recruiting and even retaining,

Um, I think they're much more likely to be able to say yes, um, because it's really clear and they're confident or no. And that's a good thing too, I think if they know that they can't actually, no, I can't do that. That's better than someone saying yes and it just falling apart. So, um, I think yes, both is true. Um, and I actually think you're more likely to retain leaders if you stick to that role description. And if you, you know, they're feeling confident, oh, that's gone well.

I did what I expected to do. I've been cared for, or taught or trained as I've gone. Et cetera, et cetera. And we sometimes, as a, a role, part of a role description, you could have a bit like what you were talking about al, you know, like a crawl, walk, run kind of scenario. This is what it looks like when you're first starting out. This is what it looks like as you're starting to grow in your competencies as you're walking and now you're running, you know, that kind of thing. Um,

Um, and so there's all sorts of things that sort of fit to fit in that, like the role descriptions, um, you know, do they have the resources to be able to do those things? Do they have the time with you to be able to do those things? And then the, the kind of. When they've done it, know when they've done a good job. That's the feedback kind of piece as well. And so it's satisfying when you know that you've done a good job.

Um, and I think that that sort of comes, um, to the retaining question as well, doesn't it? As well as the recruiting question. Yeah. Uh, any other thoughts on that guys?

Upfront in church, for example, in front of those that don't see what they do saying, Hey, here are our leaders. They're doing an awesome job. You know, it's public, it's really clear. Um, yeah, I just think people don't always do it to be praised, but that's important.

Um, but there's a little part of it, there's a kernel of, of, uh, I think gold in there is that he, he tries to express appreciation and thankfulness to God for them, but he doesn't want communicate to them that he's, that, that they are helping him out with his ministry. Um, so there's, you know, like that's a language thing really, isn't it? But it's an in interesting kind of, um, way to put it.

What changes in leadership structures, programs and logistics need to be considered to move towards being a larger group? I'm thinking a hundred plus teens would duplication or expansion into other models such as multiple smaller Friday night youth groups or something else, be better for mission outreach and discipleship of teenagers. So in some sense, it's a question of. Is there an optimal size youth group for the discipleship of, um, teenagers?

And cj, you're gonna tell us exactly the number that you need to have.

So, you know, if you're, if you're leading a youth group and you're experiencing growth, there's actually a whole bunch of things that you need to be thinking about. Um, and there's some really key kind of transition points in scales of youth ministry, um, that I've found personally over the years and working alongside other churches. You know, I, I think kind of, you know, a, a group of up to about 10 teenagers in the

room on a Friday night has a certain dynamic. uh, 20 is the next turning point, about 40, about 80, and then somewhere in the sort of a hundred to 120 to 140 is kind of the next turning point. And, and as you come to each of those turning points, um, there's some really key changes that need to be made in how you think about youth ministry.

I think the the key things you need to be thinking about as you're going from kind of one size scale to the next, um, there's the role of the youth minister within the ministry that that actually necessarily changes as you grow. Um, the structure of the leadership team needs to change as you get bigger. Uh, and the program for what you actually do at youth group need needs to change as well.

And I think in my experience, so from my own experience as a youth minister and also working with with other churches, we often get stuck at these growth points, right? So a lot of youth groups get stuck at about 40 teenagers Or about 80 teenagers. Or about 120 to 140 teenagers? Um, And it's often because we haven't identified the growth barriers that are preventing us from kind of going into that next size the changes that need to be made, um, or, or we haven't actually made those changes.

Um, sometimes we are the actual barrier ourself. You know, we don't know what the next step needs to look like, or we are still clinging to want to actively be on the front line when actually we need to step back and empower, um, groups under us to, to lead the ministry really well. so sometimes, uh, they're the reasons that we get stuck, um. A big question. I'm being asked a lot at the moment.

I'm working with a number of churches that are kind of just hit the a hundred mark a hundred teenagers on a Friday night. And the question I keep getting asked is, is there a point at which it's best to split into two groups? Which, which is really what this question is asking, you know, is is it better to be one large youth group of, you know, 150 plus teenagers or is it better to split, you know, we have a junior high youth group and a senior high youth group.

Uh, there's, yeah, look, there's lots of factors to consider and I think the, the more that I, the longer I've been in the youth ministry game and the more that I work with a variety of churches, I, I'm more convinced that there's actually not a gold standard of, you know, here is exactly what the perfect model of youth ministry looks like because it's so contextual. Um, so I, I don't, I think there's, I think you need to do some hard work to analyze your own context.

Now, there might be genuine barriers. That mean you have no option but to split into two groups a junior high and a senior high. Right? You might not have a building that can physically take 120 teenagers plus a team of, you know, that's gonna be a team of 30 plus leaders, right? You, you just might not be able to, so you might have no option.

Personally, and, and I wanna say this is personally, I think where the barriers don't exist and where it's possible, there are more benefits to staying and growing as one larger youth group than splitting two. Um, there is definitely pros and cons both ways, right? So it's not as though that's always better, that there are absolutely pros and cons both ways. But I think the pros of being one group outweigh the.

Cons of, of staying as one group now, uh, like genuinely I could record a 10 series podcast on this, so, uh, I'm not gonna, not gonna go on and on and

like, so let's say we split junior and senior high, right? That grows again, maybe then we need to split into three or four. You know, do we get to a point where you've got a youth group for every grade? What we And gender? Yeah. Right. Like you, we actually end up with highly siloed ministries. Uh, and I think, um, actually we wanna try and work the other direction, rather, rather than smaller and smaller demographics with bigger numbers.

We actually want to help young people be more integrated into a broader age range, broader body of Christ. Um, and, and it can be done, right? You can run a youth group of 150 teenagers as one group, uh, very well. It can be done. There's just certain things you need to think about and maybe adjust.

Those leaders can really, um, hone in on, on where, you know, that kind of demographic is at. I think the pros though of, of staying as one larger youth group, um, is you actually help young people, uh, see and understand what it means to be a, a Christian teenager, a across a broader age range. And I think that's really beneficial for those coming in at the younger end, right?

Whether your youth ministry starts at year six or year seven, uh, for them as they become part of the youth ministry space to see what senior high. Teenagers are doing and living and the culture they're setting, you actually lose something massive if, you know, they're only seeing a grade or two above them from, from that kind of silo down. Now, now that being said, when you're in a church where you've got this kind of large scale youth ministry, right?

A hundred plus teenagers, uh, almost always, you, you've, you've got at some other point in the week, youth bible study groups, right? And, and I would say that can be the great space where you actually get the really focused for their, you know, maybe for their grade or, you know, that's the year nine boys. Um, so I think, uh, I'm not, I'm not advocating for never having a space where you have that really focused.

Uh, I think ideally you actually, you actually want both at some space throughout the week.

Um, you know, my pre-frontal cortex is still forming, but, um, what are you gonna say to

Uh, and I think one of the, one of the key things, um, as you get big, certainly as you get into that a hundred plus mark, is you want to create space within a youth ministry program, uh, where you do things all together, right? So there's some element of your night where it's everyone together. Um, you want some element of the night where it's kind of much smaller. So maybe, you know, that's your grade discussion group or your year nine boys discussion group.

You know, you might have 12 different discussion groups. But I think what's really key when you're in that a hundred plus youth group size is actually creating the middle space as well. Um, I think a lot of our youth groups do large and small, right? So, you know, maybe we're all together for a game. And the torque. And then we go to discussion groups. So that's large. Then small.

Uh, what we need to do, I'm convinced as particularly as you get to a hundred plus, is you need large, you need small, but you also need the medium size as well. Um, and, and I'm working with a number of churches on this at the moment, and what we've kind of realized is that, uh, the medium size, you know, that might be two grades, right?

So maybe there's a time within your youth group program where year seven and eight are doing something together and at the same time, year nine and 10 are doing something together at the same time. Year 11 and 12 are doing something together. And that helps. Your example al of, you know, the 17-year-old boy who come, comes along and is like, I don't wanna run round and play dodgeball with, you know, the year seven boys. Um, I don't know, maybe they do, uh, right. But you can actually cater, uh.

A space within the youth ministry for those kind of different demographics. And, and what we've come to realize as, as an, I've been, you know, trialing a bunch of these things with some churches is that, that medium size works best as the first thing in your program. Because it means when a new person arrives, the first thing they're hit with is not 150 people in the room. Um, because for a lot of people, not everyone, but for a lot of people, that's overwhelming.

And that's gonna be an instant, uh, turnoff for, for them to want to come back, right? So starting with the medium size is actually, uh, really helpful. Then maybe you go to all in for, you know, for talk, for some singing, for, you know, whatever, whatever a weekly item is and then maybe you're finish with the small. Um, but I think the key when you get a hundred plus if you want to be one group a hundred plus, is creating those different experiences at small, medium, and large.

I'll leave it at that. I could talk a lot more, but yeah.

We are going to remind, you know, we're gonna be good examples or we are going to, we are going to do what we do with you guys. Go and check in on, you know, such and such in year eight or whatev, you know, whatever it is.

They actually know a whole lot of the senior high youth because they've been their junior leaders over the last couple of years, and there's something beautiful in that It helps them plug into the youth group community

We're not just pa passive recipients of, um, of the ministry of the leaders, but we're also contributing to this group as well. And one of the ways I can contribute is by, you know, some of the things that you've both outlined.

Um, you know, having an eye to those, those younger crew, um, to, to love and to care for them, um, and to welcome them into the family of, of believers that are here and, you know, and also, you know, those, those that are on the fringes being welcomed in and having a sense of belonging as well. Um, uh, really, uh, like, you know, a bit of a tour to force there. Cj, you've obviously thought about this a lot, and I, I, I have, I have learned from you a lot in that space.

I really appreciate that.

of, um, yeah, there's two, there's two questions at play. One is, um, there's new legislation in Australia that's coming in in December where, um, access to social media, um, is, uh, gonna be restricted to those under 16. And so, you know, obviously for the youth ministry space, but potentially also in the, in the children's ministry space that has the potential to kind of change the way we do things. Um, and so we're gonna talk about that.

But then there's also, you know, the other question is what are some creative ways we can use. Social media as a tool, not just not to undermine your ministry. And so we're gonna hit the, uh, the legislation question first. Uh, and you know, a couple here, you know, how to, how do or should the new laws against social media for those under 16 impact our youth ministries and phone policies? And then, uh, a similar and related question.

Considering the new legislation with social media and young people in the coming years, is it still worth investing? Well, in good social media advertising and promotion biblically and ethically, this is like, adds a twist to this. Um, particular question, biblical biblically and ethically should we be posting if most of our kids won't be legally able to use it. Um, Josh, what are your thoughts on this,