Training Lawyers Who Deliver

[Control] Share KB TEL Ep. 3 Speaker Speaker Speaker Welcome to the effective lawyer, a podcast for ambitious attorneys who want to improve their practice. My name is Jack Zinda, and I'll be your host. According to the association of talent development companies that offer comprehensive training programs have a 218% higher income per employee than companies without formalized training. But it doesn't stop there. According to the us bureau of labor statistics organizations with a hundred to 500 employees provided on average, just six months of training per employee, every six weeks. That number is shockingly low, especially when you consider the high cost of not training, uh, attorneys and employees. Also a long-term research project commissioned by Middlesex university for work-based learning found that from a 4,300 worker sample 74%. Felt that they weren't achieving their full potential at work due to lack of development opportunities. So today we're going to talk about how to solve that problem at your law practice. We're going to talk about how to train and onboard great lawyers at your law firm. And tell me what that today. I have two of our all-star attorneys at our firm. We have Christy Fagin and Alicia bird. Hey guys. Hey dad. So tell, tell the listeners what you guys do at our firm and a little bit about your background. Uh, sure. So I'll go. This is Christie. Um, I am the director of HR here at Sandia law group. Um, but I am an attorney. Uh, I graduated from FSU law about 10 years ago. I practiced labor and employment law in south Florida for about four and a half years before deciding to switch gears and move over to the HR side. And. I was looking for a role where I could still use my legal background and, um, expand my HR career. And luckily his in the law group was looking for an HR coordinator who had a law degree. So it seemed like a perfect fit. And, uh, here I am four and a half years later. Awesome. And hello everyone. My name is Alicia Byrd. I'm an associate attorney working as a second chair and handling a variety of plaintiff's personal injury cases. I'm also a part of our firm's training and development. Great Christie, let's start with you. What got you interested in helping other attorneys, uh, succeed through development? Sure. So one of the struggles that I had as a young attorney, I was kind of just thrown into the fire with maybe one or two days of training. On any, any topic that I was doing. So if it was a deposition, I watched my managing partner take one deposition, and then he said, okay, you're good. Go ahead and take depositions. I did not have the training or mentoring or development that I wish I had. I had told him. Um, everything on my own. I had to lead on a lot of my colleagues. I had to lean on Google and Westlaw and Lexus to train me on how to be a lawyer in a lot of respects. And so, you know, moving into the HR space, one thing that was really important to me. How can I help other lawyers or even just, you know, other employees get the training they need to be successful? Um, well I felt that was pretty successful as a lawyer. It was a lot harder work for me to get there without the training I needed. Yeah. I completely agree. I mean, I remember coming out of law school, there were so many things that I didn't know. And I went to a school that really focused on teaching you the tactics of being a trial lawyer. But a lot of lawyers go to law schools that don't even do that. Let's start out with the idea of why does training matter? You know, lawyers go to college and go to law school. They're smart. They can figure things out on their own. Why do you guys think that training is an important part of, of what affirms should focus? Yeah, well, Jack, I think you just kind of touched on that. And so thankfully for you, you went to a law school that was very, you know, heavily litigation based. And so you guys did get those practical skills, but I went to a law school where it wasn't athletic nation based. And so I think law school teaches you how to think critically write persuasively, you know, advocacy skills and maybe issues spot. It doesn't actually teach you the practice of law and the day-to-day of being a trial attorney. Um, and so what I enjoy about training is it provides you the opportunity to learn how to do things the correct way, you know, from experienced attorneys. And then it also provides an opportunity for those organic mentor, mentee relationships to be. And just for the record, you went to a really good law school at the university of Texas school of law, which I think is top 10 in the country year over year. So it was not a junior college of law schools, credible one. And I don't know if this is true and I feel like there's a correlation between the better the law school, the less practical skills they give you, but the better probably education on research and those types of things. I'd agree. And so we did have opportunities for, you know, practical experiences through clinics, but it's not, you know, a Baylor where there's a whole, you know, quarter, I guess, for litigation skills. Well, Christie, why do you think, uh, training's important and how do you think it helps our newer attorneys become better trial lawyers? It's important for a number of reasons, but I think the first thing that, you know, specifically to any firm that you go to the training helps acclimate you to that from it's going to teach you how the teacher, the firm's expectations, uh, for your role. Uh, you're going to learn how to do, you know, depositions, the way that your firm wants you to do depositions and giving you the building blocks that you need to do your job. Um, I think that. It's so important for law firms, whether they're big or small to have some kind of training program mentorship program. Um, because if you just throw a lawyer into the fire without any sort of any sort of training, you're setting them up for failure in a lot of ways. And there are a lot of mistakes that can be avoided, uh, early on. If you just have even a little bit of train. And I think that the thing to keep in mind is when you hire a young attorney and you send them out there, they're a representative of you and your law firm, and you don't want them putting you in a bad light and it can really kill your reputation. So I think tip number one is having a training program. Even if it is a terrible training program, it is better than having no training program at all. So I'd say that's really important. Well, let's talk a little bit about our firm's process, cause I'm really proud of the systems that, that you created. Christie and Alicia, that you've been a big part of as well on how we onboard new attorneys to our firms. So why don't you guys talk about what is our process for when we hire, let's say a new attorney out of law school and they just passed the bar and they joined our firm. What, what sort of steps do we take on to onboard them and get them? Sure. So I'll tackle that question. Our onboarding process starts from the day that that person agrees to work here. Um, we have a pretty robust onboarding checklist that encompasses everything that we need to do to prepare for the new attorney's arrival. And that includes the training and development portion. And so a lot of those items include. Making sure we have the acclimation guide ready for that attorney on day one. For those that don't speak us into law group language, uh, what's an acclimation guide. Sure. I was going to explain that. So the acclimation guide, um, is essentially the training guide for the new attorney. It contains all of the training modules that that attorney is going to be completing in their. You know, first couple of weeks, ideally we go through the core training modules their first month here at the firm. So everything from the admin topics of how to use your computer here at the firm, all the way to how to write a demand, how to. Uh, prepare discovery or how to take a deposition. We're going to train you on all of those topics. And the acclimation guide lays those out, uh, with a particular timeline for you to complete all of those things. It also includes things like internal and external readings. So we're really big on. Uh, continuing education here, reading CLS, reading, you know, O'Connors, which is the kind of Texas guidebook for rules and procedures and how to practice law. And so we want people to really start sharpening their saw from the get-go and the acclimation guide, uh, helps them with that. Yeah. So as a young attorney, I really appreciated our onboarding process because I remember on day one, just walking into the office, getting to meet everyone and then having that acclimation guide there, um, that was prepared for me to show me, you know, this is what you need to do. With the software, this is what you need to do with our different programs. This is who you're going to get assignments from for this. And so I really appreciate it, that onboarding process number one, because it allowed me to interact with the different attorneys in the firm, but also it gave me steps in a clear laid out guide and plan on what I needed to do, you know, to be successful as a associate in this. Yeah, and I think you've done a great job. Christy I've really mapping out what the first month of a new attorney at the firm looks like, which is really useful to them. I think you've done. What we'd like to do is make sure they get. To meet all the different players at the firm. So at least they're putting a face to a name and especially as we've grown and gotten larger and larger, that may be the only time they're going to have a chance to actually meet that person. Typically we schedule out what about a month worth of training for their first time at the firm? Yeah, I'd say it's about four to five weeks and we try to diversify who they're training with, you know, not, everyone's going to be able to get time with you Jack on a regular basis. So we try to include a training with you. Uh, with the other partners at the firm. So four to five weeks for those initial training modules, but the training doesn't stop after 45 weeks, uh, there's continued training in the form of certifications, which we can talk about in a little bit, um, and just ongoing, ongoing, continuing education, always at this firm. So. Well, and how do you go about, so if I'm a new attorney and I just started my law practice and I'm about to hire my first associate or first paralegal, how would I go about creating a training guide or acclimation guide? What are the steps you guys would recommend for putting your own one of those. So I can speak a little bit more to the practical aspect of that. It can be as simple as a word document and putting in the topics, or I guess you would call them the core job functions of what that attorney is going to be doing for you. And you can lay those topics out and you can start really broad with certain, Hey, I want to teach them, you know how to do this. And then if you're thinking about it, you can break down those steps within that guy to kind of give you. You know, give you some direction on exactly what you want that attorney to learn at least. Do you have any other thoughts of, you know, when you came in, what topics were really helpful for you as a new attorney? So things that you wouldn't think of that someone would need. So for example, just like this is our. We use the softwares late. Um, and so this is where you have all of these different, you know, this is where we keep track of our case notes and different things like that. So I think that's very helpful just from the big picture that I teach practical things. Yeah. And not substantive things that as well, but also just practical things for the office because as a new associate or you're coming in, you're nervous. You don't know anyone here. And so. Practical things on even, I think we do a good job with our office map, just having, you know, that as a part of the acclimation guide as well with the office map and you know, this person does this type of law. And so I think just practical things are also very helpful to someone new coming into the firm. And I think one thing you can do is. Walk through what that person's job is going to be and just live in their shoes for a day and make a list of all of those things they're going to be doing and make the list of everyone they interact with on that front. And you'll be amazed at how many different ideas you'll come up with. Just if you follow that exercise and you write those down. Well, we talked about new attorneys. What about experienced attorneys? What are some of the differences that. You all see with trying to help develop experienced attorneys versus new attorneys? I don't know how in depth you would like for me to go, but I just think a common issue that we see, especially in the training and development committee is maybe, um, buy-in and I think that's another question that we have to discuss is just making sure that people are bought in to number one, the culture of the firm, and then understand. What the purpose of the certifications, other purpose of the training processes, especially if they are an experienced. Yeah, I think that's so critical. I think that experiences wall has really helped our recruiting process where in the past, we may not have talked about that as much. We try to really walk through that. Continuing development is part of our culture. If you're going to be a great trial lawyer, that's not a one month, a two month or a one-year process that is lifelong learning and that's in our blood and the attorneys that are great. Do that consistent. Christie. What are some of the things you've seen with experienced lowers versus inexperienced? Let's say you've got the buy-in what's the difference in how you might set up that training? Sure. So the training modules might be the same topics because we do like to train all of our lawyers on all of the same, you know, baseline training modules. However, the difference might be in the execution. Of the training. So let's say we have an attorney who was very well versed in doing depositions and as part of our certification process for a new lawyer, you're really going to take them through all of the pages and all of the steps and having them observe 10 depositions and then have them take 10 depositions under supervision. However, For an experienced attorney, you might be able to, um, shortcut that certification, um, and really focus on the things that you want that experience attorney to know from your firm and the way that you guys do depositions and maybe cut out, you know, a lot of the, some of the observations and maybe cut out as many of the depositions, um, that you want them to take. So shorten that timeline, but still stick to the same basic principle of. We want to observe you take a couple of depositions or read a couple of deposition transcripts, um, and then maybe we can certify you from there. Or one thing I think we also do a pretty good job of with regard to, um, the experienced attorneys. Um, and we've, you know, had this recently, even if someone is. 10 15 years out. We still really encourage them. Like, Hey man, you have to do the classroom portion. We really want you to read these articles. We know, you know how to do this, but trust us, this process works, you know, go ahead and read this stuff and they do. Um, and you know, for the most part, we see that the experienced attorneys go through that process and they learn new things. Uh, so I think it's beneficial for new and experienced attorneys like, you know, and, and I think one purpose of the training process to me is for, to verify people are at the level of skill we thought they were when we brought them onto the firm, because we want to make sure we're putting our clients in good hands. Uh, and there's only so much betting you can do in the interview process. And I really liked how you phrased that before Christie, our approach to training is number one. We want to make sure you have the resources necessary to be great. Whether it's a book, a continuing education course, number two, we want to make sure you're using those resources to continue to become better and better. Number three, we want you to learn our approach to a certain tactic or technique. And number four, we want to really. Verify that you've mastered that tactic or technique, so we can leave you to yourself to, to get better and better at that, that tactic. Uh, and I've been amazed by how in the past, we've had some attorneys that really resisted that at first. And I think a lot of times it comes down to ego. You know, you gotta ask them to set aside their ego, put the client first, put the firm first and say, okay, you may already be the best in the world this, but it's not going to kill you to spend 45 minutes. To try and get our way and doing this certain tactic or technique and 99% of the time we get their buy in once they go through that process. Absolutely. And I think the buy-in continues because once they start doing, going through that process, following our process and procedures and when they start seeing those excellent cases, For their clients, then they realize, oh yeah, this is, this is a great way to do it. And I should have been doing it this way all along. And we also learn a lot from each other. I mean, we pick up a lot of great tactics from new attorneys that joined the firm that are doing things better or different. Doesn't mean we're setting our ways. It's just trying to systematize how we train people and make them make them better. Zynga law group is a plaintiff's personal injury law firm made up of over 30 lawyers that handle catastrophic personal injury and wrongful death cases throughout the United States. We regularly co-counsel and joint venture with firms across the country. Over the last several years, we have paid millions of dollars in joint venture co-counsel fees. The law firms we work with, if you are a law firm or attorney and have a catastrophic personal injury or wrongful death case, you would like to joint venture or work within the law group. Please reach out to us at 800-863-5312 or email us at info@zdfirm.com And we can set up a time to discuss your case. well, let's talk a little bit about training people on higher level tasks. So. You know, it's, it's pretty easy or maybe not easy, but pretty simple on how to train someone on how to take a bake basic deposition. But we have this terminology, we use call it certifications that I think really sets us apart in helping to make our attorneys even better at certain tasks. So, Alicia, what is the certification process and how does that. Sure. So the certification process has a classroom portion, and then there's also the practical side of the certifications as well. I'll use myself as an example. Um, so as a new attorney, um, when I wanted to be able to take a deposition, there was a certification out there, you know, which lays out exactly what I would need to do to be able to take a deposition with our firm. And so the classroom portion of that included, you know, maybe re. Um, a few CLE articles, um, O'Connor's um, going over the rules as well. And then there's the practical portion where I had to, you know, shadow a few, uh, senior attorneys. Depositions read a few of their deposition transcripts and then have the senior attorneys shadow me, take a few depositions. And then after them shadowing me, they will then say if I am certified to complete that task. And so it's essentially just a classroom portion and a practical portion built into the certification process, which will allow that person to be able to complete that particular. And, and I think what's really important if you're going to delegate that in your own firm to someone else is how you ask, are they really great at that task? In the beginning, when we did this, we got a lot of, you know, what I'll consider kind of false, excellent grades, because everyone wants to give their friend or someone who's trying hard, a good grade. So now we ask them. Would you let this person take a deposition on your most important case? Are they that good? And that really reframes the question they're like, well, maybe not that good, but they're here. And so I think getting that feedback loop is, is really critical. Christy. What are some of the areas that we have certifications, uh, for writing. So for attorneys, it's pretty much everything and anything. So when someone comes on board, we have, I think a group of five core certifications. We like attorneys to complete within their first 90 days here at the firm. So for instance, uh, completing a demand packet, that's a huge part of our practice or everyday practice. And so you have to be able to learn how to complete a demand packet. Completing a litigation packet completing, um, our closing statement, which some people might in their head think closing statement in court. But for us, it really needs the closing statement at the end of the case, when we're, I mean, after we've resolved a case rather, and kind of going through the fees and the math on, on the settlement and how we pay that out, uh, that's also hypercritical part of what we do. Uh, we certify our attorneys on how to take potential client calls. So when they're speaking with potential. Uh, in determining whether or not to sign up the case, we also certify them in initial client meetings. So meeting with that potential client, determining whether or not we're going to sign up the case and hopefully signing that case up beyond the core certifications, we, um, give attorneys the opportunity to get certified. And areas that will allow them to grow their skills and grow their career here at the firm. So it might be something as, um, you know, simple as beginning of hearings. Maybe it's an uncontested hearing all the way to a deposition to a mediation. Well, I know like some of them that, that I think are really cool that set us apart is getting certified in different practices. Our firm has a very big focus on trucking litigation. And so we have a pretty intense trucking certification process that is pretty difficult to conquer because we want to make sure if you're handling a trucking case at our firm, you're the best. And so I think those are some of the really cool ones and it's kind of very advanced and we've done that for whether it's workplace injury cases or trucking litigation. And on those, it's more of a long-term project to where you have to work side by side with a more senior attorney and do different parts of the case under really closer provision till they say yes, I feel comfortable with this person handling that type of case, uh, which also think is good for mentors. So I think is another big piece of the component that we do a good job of. Why do you guys think that mentorship is important and something that affirms should embed into its culture? Yeah, so I think it's important because it enhances maybe the new hires chance for success. Um, it also helps to socialize that person. And so. Some of those mentorship relationships happen organically. Um, just by working alongside that person. Um, for example, I work with Milan. We work on all of our cases together, um, and I consider him a mentor. It wasn't something that was assigned to me. It was just, you know, we worked together on all of our cases. And so I do believe that that relationship has helped me succeed in my career. Um, just by having his mentorship and his guidance throughout my. And the other thing to that too. And Alicia, since we peg you to be a mentor, to so many of our new attorneys, I think it's also having that go-to person that, you know, if you have even the dumbest question, you can go to them and ask it. And that's huge for especially a new attorney. Coming in where, you know, they haven't practiced law a day in their life and they've come into a firm with 30 other, you know, really high caliber attorneys and they're nervous. And so having that go-to person, you know, we've seen really helps develop them and acclimate them to the firm and actually really increases their chance of success. Um, and their longevity. Yeah. And I think one thing that we've started doing as far as mentorship goes, as we got bigger is try to have someone be a mentor to a new attorney or a new paralegal. That's not their direct supervisor, because then it's less of a, an oversight relationship. And we try to pick someone that maybe is like one or two steps ahead of that person in experience. So they can relate to them a little. Whereas, if you assign someone to be a mentor, who's got 15 years experience to a new attorney, they may not relate as much to the same problems are going through. And they also may not be willing to give as much time and a space to, to work with that person to really make them better. I mean, it's amazing. Uh, how quickly you forget how little you knew as a first year attorney. I remember this is back when they did physical fine at the courthouse and there wasn't electronic filing. And I could not for the life of me, figure out how to file stuff at the courthouse. You're supposed to bring a certain number of copies. So you gave one to opposing counsel and one did the judge, but then sometimes you had to bring an extra one. So I ended up making like 12 copies of something, even though I knew it needed. And little things like that. It's amazing how little, you know, as a, as a first year attorney and having a mentor to ask those dumb questions too, can go a long way. Well, what about culture? What do you guys think is the best way to try to instill culture with new people? So they buy into your system and you get them to help make the culture better and not diluting. One of the things that we try to do is leading by example and, um, you know, really living our, our culture and our core principles, you know, so one of my favorite core principles of ours, which I think has informed our culture in a really big way is we all take out the trash. That's probably the one that when I interview people, they comment on the most. And I think, you know, we have a really great culture of hard working. Smart smart people. And one of my favorite things that I hear in our employee reviews, especially from our attorneys, some of the feedback they'll say is, let's make sure we're protecting that culture as we bring new people on board, because we want to make sure that we are also having other team members or hiring a team members who share those same values and kind of work up to those same principles. Yeah, I would agree with Christy. Um, I believe that just making it. Because we had those core principles, um, and conveying that to people, you know, to new hires and making sure that the current associates at the firm and not even just the associates, both the office staff and the paralegals also know what those core principles are and that we live by those core principles and that we protect those principles as well. And so just having that will instill that culture throughout the. Yeah. And I think you want to make sure that one, obviously you want to have core principles and number two, you want to make sure that you communicate and teach them what they mean. And then I like to tie them to. Itself, you know, how does, how do our core principles tie to what you're doing day in and day out? And if it's a paralegal or a legal assistant or an attorney, you really want to make sure they understand how important their role is to the success of the firm, and then tie it back to the. Uh, so they feel like they're part of something bigger than themselves. And as we've grown, I think trying to protect our culture is one of the things I'm most passionate about, because I think you're only as strong as your weakest link, especially as a law firm. And if the team starts seeing people that don't live out, your values, don't live out your culture, then it just becomes words on paper. And it's really easy to lose. Yeah, absolutely. Well, so just to recap some of the topics that we hit and some of the things that you want to make sure, if you're trying to establish a great training and development program, I think number one is have a training and development program. I think that's important. Number two, you might consider doing an acclimation guide, which is your process of onboarding new people. Number three, you may consider having a certification process where you have a system to verify people are great at their core job functions and as a tool and a ladder to help people to improve and grow in their career. Number four, set up a mentorship system, either organically or intentionally and number five, make sure that everyone understands your culture and your core values, and you explain and train them on the. Guys, this has been really great. I think a lot of people are going to get a lot of good insights from this conversation today. And before we go, though, what is w what are one or two tips that you would leave our listeners with? I would say, you know, if you're going to create a training program and you've never done it before, I would say, just give it a shot. Um, I would say, you know, do the best you can and don't be afraid to be wrong, or to make an error in that program. You can always refine it and learn from your mistakes. I think that we've done that over the last few years, and that's why we've been able to get our training program as robust as it is today. Just always. Um, from past mistakes. And then, um, the second thing I would say is commit to it, kind of go all in and really dedicate the time. To not only creating the training program, but training, um, your attorneys. And if it's not, you actually training your attorneys, um, you know, make sure you have the resources there to do so. And if you don't have the resources just yet, you know, figure out a way to do it so that you're not setting anyone up for failure, you want to make sure you have the time and the resources to dedicate to, uh, you know, to training your attorneys. Yeah. And I would say if you're a new attorney, just be open to, you know, the training process that your firm has or that they have in place. Um, and also be open to providing any feedback to the committee or to the person that is, you know, training you throughout that process. I would treat this like it's its own, uh, case in your firm and constantly refine it and make it better. Don't be afraid to experiment and get the feedback loop going from the people you're doing the training with. And I think just by having a training process, you're going to make yourself a significantly better law firm than if you did. Well, the final thing before we go is a book recommendation as usual. And my book recommendation for this podcast is the power of habit by Charles Duhigg. This sounds like a self-help book, but it really isn't. It's explains a great way to set up a repeatable process. It explains how the human mind works. And I think it really ties into methods and techniques to train people on how to become great and to them to train them. So I really appreciate everyone's time today. Thank you very much. And we'll talk. Thanks Jack. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of the effective lawyer. If you enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to rate it five stars and leave us a review to get notified about new episodes that are upcoming or have been released. Go to ZD firm.com/podcast center for a mailing list.