Journey from TV Reporter to Attorney

00:10 Jack Zinda Welcome to the Effective Lawyer, a podcast for ambitious attorneys who want to improve their practice. My name is Jack Zinda and I'll be your host. Hey, everyone, Jack Zinda here with the Effective Lawyer podcast. Today we're talking to one of our newest trial lawyers, someone with a really amazing background, Max Massie. And we're talking to him about his journey from college through having a career for a while and then making the tough decision to go back to law school and working full time. Max, why don't you say hi? 00:41 Max Massey Hello, everyone. Jack, thank you so much for having me today and for bringing me in. This has been quite a journey and I'm glad it's led me here. 00:49 Jack Zinda Awesome. Awesome. So you are originally from Pennsylvania. Where are you from? Originally? 00:53 Max Massey Right outside Philadelphia suburbs. So Fort Washington, Maple Glen area. If anyone listening is from that area, it's probably about 40 minutes north of Philadelphia. 01:03 Jack Zinda And so you went to Penn State and you're on the rowing team there, which is really impressive. That is a difficult sport. 01:11 Max Massey It's fun. It is definitely something that is not as popular here in Texas yet. But oddly enough, my coach from Penn State ended up becoming the UT head coach. Oh, really? That's really cool. That's a. 01:26 Jack Zinda That's a fun story. And after. And you, what year did you go to college? 01:31 Max Massey So 2010 to 2014. 01:32 Jack Zinda Okay. And then after college, you didn't go straight into practicing law. What was the next thing you jumped into? 01:38 Max Massey So in college, initially, it's funny because I started my educational path wanting to do mergers and acquisitions law. And then I interned at Morgan Stanley and a law firm. And to be honest, I hated everything. I was like, this is boring. I don't know what I'm doing with my day. And then I got an internship at CBS in Philadelphia, and it required me to be there at about 4:30 in the morning, but I loved it and I was willing to give up my summers. I remember my one friend, it was 4th of July and he was like, hey, we're all going to Penn State this weekend. You should come. I was like, well, it's fourth of July. Like, it's kind of a big, like, news weekend. I have to work. 02:21 Max Massey And it was kind of at that moment where I was like, oh, I really like this. Like, I'm giving up my holidays, giving up my weekends, wanting to be there at 4:30 in the morning. I was like, this seems like a career I would enjoy. So I kind of shifted everything and then ended up graduating with history, business and communications. 02:37 Jack Zinda Well, you know, I know That's a super competitive field, getting into journalism, especially local journalism. So what was something that really attracted you to and now you said you really enjoyed it, but what was part of parts of it that you really liked? 02:49 Max Massey I really liked. And it kind of links to what we do here is just advocating for people, you know, telling people stories, explaining what they're going through, how this is not just a Dem problem, but it can be a bigger problem, and just talking about what's going on in and around the community. 03:06 Jack Zinda And, you know, I imagine there's a lot of things that tied to being a trial lawyer that you got from that. What are some of the takeaways that you used in your time as a reporter that led to you being a really strong trial lawyer? 03:19 Max Massey Well, first and foremost, public speaking, you know, being able to have these conversations, not only what we're having right now, but in front of other people, knowing that, you know, when you're in front of the camera, yes, you're just looking at a camera. But you know, when I was in San Antonio, there's a DMA of more than a million people. 03:35 Jack Zinda Yeah. 03:35 Max Massey So, you know, you're talking to groups of people and then there are presentations. We have live audiences from time to time and just the ability to be able to talk to anyone. A lot of the times you are reporting and in circumstances where you're reporting on a tragic situation, you are talking to families in what we do here. Perfect link. Some of their worst days, some of the seemingly insurmountable obstacles that have just come about out of nowhere and trying to help them navigate what happened and what comes next? 04:07 Jack Zinda No, for sure. And you know, when you first became a reporter, do you have any memories of the first time you're on camera, like what that felt like and the nerves there? 04:15 Max Massey I do. It's. So I started, as you were saying earlier, to your point of it's super competitive. So I started in North Platte, Nebraska, which is I think the smallest market in the country. 04:26 Jack Zinda It sounds like a prank almost a little bit. 04:28 Max Massey And so for someone who, you know, was born and raised in Philly and then went to Penn State, which is its own little bubble and little city, to then kind of just be dropped off in middle of rural Nebraska, it was definitely an eye opening moment. But I'm so glad it happened because getting to meet everyone, getting to learn people's stories and then, you know, to your question of first time I was on camera, I remember I was live and they basically just handed me what is called the tvu, which is just this mechanism that allows you to go live from anywhere. That. And they're like, all right, have fun. Go live. Figure it out. And I was like, okay, this is fantastic. And it was really a path that like, lets you learn along the way. 05:11 Jack Zinda When I think that really ties to being a lawyer, I remember I was in the courtroom my first week as an attorney. I got sworn in early by a judge in Williamson county because they had a hearing, like, the next day that I had to attend. And there's no substitute for getting out there. You know, I think what happens with a lot of lawyers is they make it such a big deal to either try case, take a deposition, go to court, that by the time it happens, they have so much anxiety versus, you know, you're never going to be perfect. But just getting yourself out there and doing. I imagine being a reporter on camera is kind of the same thing. 05:42 Max Massey It's a lot of move fast and break things. 05:46 Jack Zinda Yeah. 05:46 Max Massey And then kind of learn from your mistakes. But it's kind of like for so many people out there who play sports. Right. Play football or basketball, you. You go. You try to play. You go back and you watch the tape, see what went well, see what went wrong and see how you can improve for the next time. 06:00 Jack Zinda Well, and, you know, I'm sure being a rower, you had early mornings and a lot of discipline involved. It sounded like that kind of rolled over nicely to being a reporter. 06:07 Max Massey It definitely made things easier. And, you know, to this morning where I saw Your email at 5:42am I was awake, ready to respond, got the resume ready, and it's one of those where you kind of become a morning person. 06:21 Jack Zinda Yeah. 06:21 Max Massey It also makes me want to go to sleep before 9:00pm which, you know, is what it is, but fun. I like to be up early, start the day early, and try to knock things off the checklist. 06:32 Jack Zinda For the record, I'm the exact opposite. I think I sent that email at midnight with like a delay send to come in the morning. So the exact opposite of that. Well, so let's talk about. Can you remember some of the really interesting stories you had? Maybe some memorable. It didn't have to be a major story, but something really had an impact on you as a reporter. 06:50 Max Massey So two of the big situations that come to mind when we talk about some of the stories that really left a mark on me was the shooting in Uvalde, which is a school shooting, and then the shooting in Sutherland Springs, and that was the church in Sutherland Springs. And that actually was interesting. To follow not only because of the news element, but also because, you know, were some of the first people there before the caution tape was even there. So getting to talk to the families, understand what they were going through in those moments of the questions and concerns and. And then what transpired not only that day, but the months and years afterwards, because it ended up in litigation where the shooter should not have even been able to purchase the weapon. 07:38 Jack Zinda For those who are curious, a good friend of mine, Jamal Al Safar, tried that case or settled that case. It was a really big result and it was kind of precedent setting involving the Air Force's failure to put the person on the no purchase gun list when they had knowledge of a lot of mental instability there. A very tragic case. So what was the pivotal moment? Where or when did you start having an inkling like, hey, I may want to switch directions and go from reporter to lawyer? 08:07 Max Massey So it started off as super incremental. I worked primarily in the morning, so my day at work was essentially done by 1pm I had to be there at 4.30am but it was done early. And I found myself with a lot of time at that point. I was just reading books. So I started reading books to the presidents. And I would just kind of go in chronological order. And I was like, hey, we do a lot of coverage on not only, you know, day to day crime, but there were a lot of constitutional issues going on in the news. And I was like, no one really has a proper legal background. We keep having to go to all these other people. Why doesn't anyone, you know, have a law degree? And so I was like, all right, I'm just going to take the lsat. 08:49 Max Massey We'll see how it goes. I was like, I'm only going to apply to St. Mary's because I was in San Antonio. I knew St. Mary's I was like, I'm not going to move for this, so we'll just see how it goes. And it just kept going further and further. And then in St. Mary's every1l has to do a essentially construct a Supreme Court brief and then do a moot court internally. And it takes all of 1L year. And ours was super interesting. It was about immigration and gun rights and the fact pattern they constructed merged the two. And it was just super fascinating. We did extensive research. Again, a year went into this, constructing this argument. 09:31 Max Massey And the night of our moot court presentation, essentially I get a call from my boss and the main anchor that evening actually called out, and they asked me hey, is this something, you know, can you fill in tonight? And at that time, I believe I was at the new station about three years. And this would have been, you know, a big deal. Hey, you get to be like, it's. 09:54 Jack Zinda A big market too. San Antonio is a huge market to get the head job at. 09:57 Max Massey I love San Antonio. Loved everyone I was there with and still go back, going back next weekend. 10:03 Jack Zinda Awesome. 10:04 Max Massey And I, at that moment, I think subconsciously I picked law over news. I was like, look, I've been doing this for a year. I've been researching it. I also couldn't let my partner on the brief down. I was like, I can't just leave him hanging. And I think that was really the turning point internally that led me that fork in the road where I started looking more at the legal field. 10:32 Jack Zinda Well, you know, it's so interesting. It must have taken a lot of discipline to go to law school while still being a reporter. What were some of the. It sounds like some of the skills you picked up maybe in college with rowing really helped you do that. So what were some of the tips or tactics for someone who's thinking about going back to college? But our law school, but also is still working that you use to make that work. 10:54 Max Massey First off, have a great support system. I mean, I have family, friends, and shout out to my girlfriend Paige, who was willing to, you know, work with me through this process where it was, you know, a lot of missed social activities. Going to bed at, you know, 6:00pm to wake up not only early for work, but early to get work done. It was, you know, working seven days a week. I remember when I interviewed with Cole, I. He asked me, he's like, well, what do you like to do for fun? 11:25 Jack Zinda Col Gum is one of the partners of the firm. 11:27 Max Massey And so he. He was asking me, he was like, what do you like to do on your time off? And I was like, I'm gonna be honest with you. Like, I don't really have time. I said, well, what about your weekends? Like, well, I work in the morning and then I go to the library in the afternoon. And I think he would kept, like, crying being, well, what. What else do you do? And I was like, I like to watch football. And then we talked about football a little bit. But I think a lot of it, in terms of advice for anyone who's thinking about it's just having a good support system, compartmentalization, making sure you stay organized. 12:00 Max Massey And that's one of the things I love about Zynda, is the checklist you know, I live my life off of like my own checklist and if you go into my office right now, it's a lot of post it notes. 12:09 Jack Zinda Yeah. 12:09 Max Massey And just like visualization of what I have to get done in that day. 12:13 Jack Zinda Yeah. 12:14 Max Massey And so I think as long as you can stay organized and there's not too many exterior pressures, I think it's definitely manageable. 12:22 Jack Zinda Well, you know, the. I, I think it's Jocko Willink, who's a famous author and podcaster, former Navy seal, has a saying. It's like discipline is freedom, you know, and the idea of having discipline set up so you can have freedom to do what you want. Give me a sense of like how you structured today. So now we kind of get into the meats and potatoes of it of like, hey, I'm going to try to do this really hard thing. It's challenging. How did you structure your day that you know, maybe you're starting law school and you still have to do work? How did you structure it? 12:48 Max Massey So I would. This is going to sound ridiculous to some people watching, but we'll say Saturday morning. So every Saturday morning had to be at the news station by 5am So I would wake up at 2:30am I would work out until about 4am Then from 4 to about 4:45, I lived about two blocks from the station, which made everything a lot easier. 4, 4 to 45 I would go through, there's different news outlets making sure that we had everything we needed. I'd send out internal notes. Hey guys, we need to make sure we have this, this, go over scripts from the night prior, making sure if there's any updates, seeing if there was any big stories overnight because we have the police pages, the fire pages. And then I would be at the station by 5. 13:41 Max Massey From 5 to essentially 5:50, kind of go through the details, go through the scripts, making sure everything's written properly, making sure that the details are factually accurate. There's any breaking news that's come down, make sure we have that go over reporter strategy. And then from essentially 6 to we'll say like 1pm it's just work from there. It would then just go to the library and figure out what exactly I have for the day. I have a calendar, like a pocket calendar and would just go through and then St. Mary's was great about having like we have internal systems to see what you have to do. We had our own St. Mary's like agendas, essentially what is due for what respective class. 14:28 Max Massey And so I would just go through and just knock out anything that I could and ideally leave by 5pm so I could go home, eat, go to sleep, and then do it all again. 14:39 Jack Zinda See, that's. That's really impressive. One thing that I took away from that is the structure that you set up in the schedule. I find when I'm not getting enough done, it's because my schedule is out of whack. You know, I've got two kids and things can get kind of crazy. But I love during the week having a real clear schedule of when I'm going to work out, when I'm going to study, anything I'm working on. And I'm a big believer in what gets scheduled, gets done. And it sounds like you had a very regimented approach to that. 15:04 Max Massey Very, very rigid to a fault at times. But it, you know, it's fun because it's that constant sense of accomplishment. It's almost like microcosms of euphoria of just like, I got it done, on to the next one. 15:21 Jack Zinda Do you remember if there was any pivotal moments that you decided, hey, I want to go to law school, Was it. Or did just kind of creep up on you that you were going to go? 15:28 Max Massey It was creeping up. I've always loved the law. I've always had a super, you know, honestly, fascination with the legal process, the laws of the land and history, which obviously everything is laying. And I think I was just kind of like, looking for a reason and the fact that we didn't have anyone to really go through and simplify, because that's, for me, it can be overly complicated. And I think one thing in our profession is just simplifying it for the jury. And I kind of looked at whether it's your family or viewers from the news that's almost looking at it like the jury. These are super complicated, convoluted issues, whether they're constitutional issues, whether they're legal issues, whether it's just the news of the day. But it's your job to take these, what could be books, and explain it in 30 seconds or less? 16:27 Jack Zinda Yeah, I completely agree. I think being able to tell, take a complex story and break it down is really valuable toolset. Were there any moments where you doubted your decision where you're like, no, maybe I shouldn't do this. It's a lot of money, a lot of time that you wanted to change your mind? 16:43 Max Massey Not really. I'm going to be. There were definitely times where, you know, you sit there and you feel a little overwhelmed, especially when you have big papers. I was one of the journals, which is a lot of fun, but it's a lot of work. And so that on top of everything else, when you have to go through edits and you edit other people's, which is good for your own because you learn and it's easier to. 17:06 Jack Zinda What is it? 17:07 Max Massey Those who can't do, teach. 17:08 Jack Zinda Yeah. 17:08 Max Massey And so when you go through someone else's, you're like, if I'm criticizing this person for what they're doing, I need to make sure that if they see mine is in pristine condition. 17:18 Jack Zinda Well, maybe a different question then. What helped you get through when it got really tough? So I know that's a lot to balance and all of us have kind of our stress points where we reach a point where we need to take a step back. So what got you through those moments where you maybe felt like, gosh, this is, this may be too much to do right now. 17:34 Max Massey I think it's just breaking it up. I think this is going to sound super cliche, but. Kobe Bryant. Yes, I'm going to be right. Yeah. So two quotes from him. The first one is he would go into practice every day and he's like, you write down your workout because you're making a contract with yourself and doesn't matter how long it takes, but you're going to fulfill that contract. And so for me, you know, keeping a pretty itemized list of what I'm going to do not only on that day, but if there's. I have like an allocated 5 hours to knock stuff out of the library. These are my objectives. I'm getting these done before I leave. 18:14 Jack Zinda Man, that guy was animal. I remember watching the Redeem team documentary on Netflix and the story where he. Everyone's coming back to the casino and they've been partying all night and they see Kobe coming out and they're like, where are you going? He's like, I'm going to the gym. And it was like four in the morning and he would do it like a two hour workout before practice. You know, there's something to that. I find when I write stuff down. I'm. It is like a contract myself. I actually use a paper journal where I plan on my week and my day. And there's something different than typing where you're writing it and you mark it off. I don't know what it is psychologically, but there's a connection there. 18:46 Jack Zinda You know, if you'd like a copy of any of the things you heard about here today or to set up a time to Talk about one of our team members about a case, please go to Zendalaw IO and we have amazing resources, downloads, guides, and you can set up a time to talk to us if you want to talk about how we handle things or any case in particular. You not only did well in law school, you really crushed it with a lot of the extracurricular stuff. You run the. The mock trial team, right? 19:21 Max Massey Yeah. Negotiations team. 19:22 Jack Zinda Negotiations team. You guys went pretty far in nationals, right? 19:25 Max Massey Yeah. So I don't mean to throw shade at your Baylor bags, but we. It was us and Baylor in the national championship. 19:33 Jack Zinda Awesome. 19:33 Max Massey Yeah. And so it was amazing time and credit to all the teammates because it really is a team. You know, what would people see on social media is, you know, us holding the trophy or us going to the international competition representing the United States, which is still a crazy thing to even say out loud. But they don't see, you know, the hours that everyone on the team essentially donated to act as the red team or the opposing party and craft their own strategy, craft their own parameters of what they can and can't negotiate and them sacrificing their weekends to spend with us to make sure that we are adequately prepared. 20:15 Jack Zinda Well, let's talk a little bit about maybe some of the helpful things that you did when you reported that led to being a good trial lawyer. Let's talk about storytelling. So give me a sense or the listener sense of like, what the storytelling process was like when you were a reporter and how that might tie into trying cases. 20:30 Max Massey Again, it's just, it's simplifying a lot of the times, especially in breaking news situations. You go out to, you know, a shooting or a car crash or just a situation that has a neighborhood up in arms. And your job right off the bat is in a short amount of time, let's say, you know, if I were morning reporting that day, I'd get in at 3:30am first live hit would be at 4:30. 20:56 Max Massey So let's say I actually get to the scene by 4am they want a live hit at 4:32am in that time period, I need to find a safe place to set up for a live hit, talk to anyone and everyone who I can to ascertain as much information, whether that's police on the scene, whether that's neighbors, whether it's family members of those affected, and then articulate at least a cohesive message and coherent message that lasts about 45 seconds to a man at 15. And so it's just getting as much information, writing down My strategy was always writing down three points that you want the audience to walk away with and then just saying, we're here on the scene, we're going to be here all morning. If anything else comes out, we will keep you posted as soon as possible. 21:42 Jack Zinda That's a great point. And what I tell a lot of our lawyers and I've heard from other great trollers is, you know, watch 60 Minutes or 2020 or the local news and see how briefly they tell a story. Angely has a before the bad thing happened, what was going on. Then the bad thing happens that was warned by the before thing and then the aftermath of it, using visuals and not a lot of flowery words versus, you know, going on for an hour and a half. And it's amazing how much information you pack into a two or three minute, especially now with how hard it is for people to focus during a case. 22:13 Max Massey Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I took away from reporting is people get lost in details and the big things that you want them to take away with, that's what you need to talk about. I always looked at it like you were the expert at that point and you need to explain to people what happened, why, how and when. I mean, it goes back to almost elementary school. It's, you know, what are the basics? And I always thought of it as if I was explaining this to my family, what would they want to know? And I think it kind of parallels juries. You know, we could go through the various mechanisms of injury, we could go through, you know, a 20 minute slog of just, you know, how the smallest thing led to this. 22:59 Max Massey But at the end of the day, you need to articulate your client's story and what you want the jury to. 23:05 Jack Zinda Walk away with and shout out to Joe Fried, who has a speed trial method which I really am a big fan of, where he really condenses the critical stuff and trying to get big cases tried quickly. Well, let's talk about what did you do to prepare your friends and family for this journey? Because I think something people underestimate is like, how much you support you need. So was there any steps you took to say, hey, this is how things may change if I do this. 23:30 Max Massey So I'm going to be honest and if any of my friends are listening, they're going to be like, yeah, he didn't say a thing. So I didn't tell anyone for a really long time. And I think the first time, the first person who knew was actually my Girlfriend who saw an LSAT study book in like, the back of my car on the way to dinner, she's like, why do you have an LSAT book? And so at dinner I was like, look, I'm. I'm thinking about taking the lsat. She's like, oh, okay, that's cool. And so eventually, after I took it, after I started applying places, I told my parents and they're like, okay, good luck, have fun. Let us know how it goes. 24:11 Max Massey And then progressively I told people at work because, you know, obviously there's going to be some time confliction, like the moot court situation where I had to explain, you know, I can't do this. And then eventually, I think it was after I. I got the results from, for the mpre, which is the ethics exam. I was on the phone with my friend and I was like, oh, nice. And he was like, what? I was like, oh, I just passed the mpa. He was like, what? And one of my longest friends of all time, and he was like, I didn't know you were in law school. And so from there it was just, it was very incremental because I didn't want to make a big deal of it and I didn't want people to think that. 24:57 Max Massey I think my biggest fear was people thinking that because I was in law school, because I was, you're learning, or on the competition team or writing on the journal or anything like that, I didn't want them to think it was going to take away from, you know, my technically 9 to 5 or my other commitments. And so I made it a mission of mine to not necessarily break up that hundred percent, still give everything I had to the news, but also make sure that I was fulfilling my obligations to the law school. 25:26 Jack Zinda So takeaway there is, keep it top secret, don't tell me, and ask for no help. What are some of the, you know, in all seriousness, what are some of the advantages you had being a professional before going to law school? In my experience, I felt like the people that worked were much better in law school than the people went straight through college. 25:44 Max Massey I am actually incredibly happy I did it this way because I think for me, it is one of those things, no matter your career, prior to law. 25:53 Jack Zinda School. 25:55 Max Massey You don't have to be the smartest person in the room. You have to show up, do the work, and do the work by the time it is due. And I think regardless of what career you're in, it teaches you to do that. And to be honest, it's because your salary is dependent on that and no matter what field you're in, you're at least for me, like, I'm always going to want to better, get better and progress in some fashion. And so you can't do that unless you're doing the basics. And I think having that foundation of just basic professionalism. Yeah, I think that was so important in law school just because you see people who don't do that and it's so frustrating to see because law school's not cheap. 26:39 Max Massey So for people listening who are thinking, there are scholarships out there are amazing opportunities, there are people who want to help, but it's still not a cheap process. So to see people who were going through this process not. Not even take advantage of the opportunities, but to not go to class on time, to not just do the assignments was fairly frustrating because it's. This opportunity is essentially being handed to you. And once you get that degree, once you pass the bar, the options are limitless. 27:11 Jack Zinda Yeah, well, it's crazy too how expensive it's gotten. I remember I went to BAYLOR, it was 21k a year. Now it's 64. Yeah, that was a short, like three years ago, something like that. Actually, it was 2000, 2005. I always forget when I went to law school, I graduated 05. Well, let's talk about how you decided to get into trial law. Was that something you knew from the very beginning that you wanted to be a litigator, or was it something that progressed as well? 27:34 Max Massey I think so. As I was taking those incremental steps, I think once I subconsciously made that decision that I was going to start pursuing this. I'm someone who can't sit still for a very long time. And so I never even thought, you know, transactional work was necessarily in my future. I know I love talking to people, I love interacting with people. And there are so many parallels that we've talked about that go from news reporting to the courtroom. And so I thought that was just a natural fit. And then I got involved with Personal Injury Law association helping found it because that's really cool. It was a great process. And honestly I was lucky because someone in my section was like, hey, we're looking at creating this, you know, would you be interested? And I was like, how? 28:23 Max Massey First off, especially in a super saturated market like San Antonio, how is there not a Personal Injury Law Association? And my mission there was not only to talk to personal injury attorneys and just pick their brain, see what's worked for them, see the process of being procedures that they've gone through, but really get people jobs, you know, like were talking about. It is not a cheap process. 28:44 Jack Zinda Yeah. 28:44 Max Massey And for. For so many people to graduate without that opportunity or to not have a summer internship, to not have practical experience, it was frustrating. I mean, we had so many students where they're like, I don't know what I'm going to do. And it's like, well, have you reached out to this person? Have you talked to this person? So I looked at it as an opportunity to get people involved, to, you know, connect people, to make it so you have options when you graduate. 29:10 Jack Zinda Yeah. Well, was there anything particular about St. Mary's that let you be able to do this and work in a career? Because I think selecting law school is probably important if you're working at the same time. 29:19 Max Massey I cannot say enough good things about St. Mary's I think that they. I would not be here today without them. They were fantastic working with me. Any questions, comments or concerns that I had, they were willing to take a phone call, answer an email immediately and just go over what needed to be done, how, whether that was registration, registering for classes, anything like that. I think people, maybe I'm of a people person, I like to talk to people, but a lot of people are hesitant to just ask questions. And I think for me, the worst thing that anyone can say is no. And at that point you're in the same position where you started. 30:00 Jack Zinda Yeah. 30:00 Max Massey Well. 30:00 Jack Zinda And did they. Do they have anything focused specifically for people that were working professionally? I know because it's very varies from law school to law school. I don't. I think Baylor was kind of supportive when I was there, but I don't recall a lot of people working full time. It seemed like they really wanted you to vote. And I know other law schools, like my brother went to U of H is University of Houston. They were pretty encouraging of people working and doing that. Was it something St. Mary's offered for people that are looking for which law school to pick? Yes. 30:26 Max Massey St. Mary's has the special program. I think since I've graduated or Maybe in my 3L year, they actually started an online program which is accredited, and I think that's specially curtailed to people who are working nine to fives. And so it was amazing. I think, yeah, U of H has a program and I think there are select law schools that. That almost specialize in curriculums that kind of go around people who do work. 30:52 Jack Zinda Yeah, well. And so one takeaway I have from that is you really want to figure out if when you're going to be a lawyer if this is what you want to do, and find a law school where they've got support systems for professionals. Tell me about what would be the reasons you tell someone not to go to law school. Like, what would be the things. Because I get that question all the time and surprisingly a lot of times I tell them that's probably not a good idea. So what would be the reasons for someone not to choose this, that's working in a career right now? 31:15 Max Massey I'm going to flip this on ahead a little bit. So what are some of the reasons you've told people not to go? 31:20 Jack Zinda Well, so my thing is, I think a lot of people pick the law because it's prestigious. And they don't know what they want to do with their lives. But they know if I'm a lawyer, it gives me a professional path, I will get respect. And they have a notion that there's good money to be made. And they get into a situation where they didn't know what they want to do after college, they go straight to law school and they sign up for somewhere, say like Baylor at 60,000 a year. And law schools are a major profit driver for most universities, so they don't give as much aid as they would if you were in an undergraduate. And it's much easier to take out the loans to pay them back. 31:54 Jack Zinda And so people have like, let's say someone comes to me and say, hey, I want to be an environmental lawyer. And typically if they say that means they want to help the environment. But then I started telling, well, do you know what an environment lawyer actually does day to day? Do you know what the ins and outs and do, you know, like the majority of jobs are working for, you know, chemical companies and petroleum companies against environmental regulations. There's like a tiny bit that are on the other side and they don't pay very well. And then all of a sudden like, oh, really? And they haven't done the math of either what they're going to enjoy doing. So I kind of visualize what am I going to get up and be excited about doing and then what is the compensation going to be? 32:27 Jack Zinda I knew I wanted to be in the courtroom for a long time, so I had this vision of what I wanted to do. And it took a while for me to figure out kind of the financial piece. But you don't end up in three years. And the average compensation, I think for a Lawyer now is 60,000 a year. Having 300,000 in debt with a job you don't like and you're not making money that you, that could pay the loans back. 32:48 Max Massey Yeah, those are very good reasons. So, yeah, I, I think the thing for me is people who have asked about going to law school were not necessarily people right out of college. A lot of our support staff and other support staff have asked, hey, you know, I'm thinking about going to law school. Would you recommend it? And I think from their perspective, where they've worked at great places. 33:10 Jack Zinda Exactly. Yeah. 33:11 Max Massey I think it's different because they have that plan, they know what they're getting into. But yeah, to your point of, you know, it's kind of the shotgun effect. Oh, I want to be a lawyer. I understand being like, well, maybe you should formulate a plan, understand how the logistics and practicality work. 33:24 Jack Zinda That's a really great point. And I think working in a law firm to see what you're doing day to day, not I run, encourage people that want to be lawyer to do it, but just make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Like, what is the job that I want to do at the end of this, you know, time frame and what does that look like? How much money do I make? Where do I want to live, what do I want my lifestyle to be? And we've had a lot of great paralegals and legal systems that have gone on to law school from here. And I think once you've worked in a law firm, like, oh, this is what it's like. It's a really eye opening experience and you may love it and that's what you want to do. 33:54 Jack Zinda Well, Max, this has been an incredible conversation and super impressive resume. I'm really excited to see what you're going to do for us and all of our clients. 34:00 Max Massey Well, thank you so much. This has been awesome. I think this is like the first real podcast I've ever been on. So this is groundbreaking. 34:07 Jack Zinda Awesome. What? You've only been on the TV thousand times. Well, thank you so much, my friend, and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening today's episode of the Effective Lawyer. You can learn more about our team and find other episodes of our podcast@zendalaw.com as always, we'd appreciate that you subscribe, rate and review the pod. Thanks.